A military path to citizenship? Not so fast.

posted at 8:31 am on February 8, 2014 by Jazz Shaw

Another day, another poll on immigration reform… and one which probably proves what Allahpundit was saying yesterday regarding the need to examine how the questions are phrased. As was demonstrated, you can get a (bare) majority of people to support some form of broad immigration reform (amnesty) if you offer them a choice between mass deportation and a path to citizenship for those illegals who “have jobs.” Rasmussen has a new set of numbers which flip parts of the previous poll on its head while opening up a whole new can of worms.

Voters continue to put tougher border control well ahead of creating a pathway to citizenship for most illegal immigrants, but they‘re all for citizenship for children brought here illegally who are succeeding in America. Most also see citizenship as an effective recruiting tool for the military.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 80% of Likely U.S. Voters believe a child who is brought here illegally but later earns a college degree or serves honorably in the military should be given a chance to obtain U.S. citizenship. Just 10% disagree, while 10% are not sure.

First of all, their phrasing of the question regarding border security vs a path to citizenship is clearly different. And American respondents answered differently in kind, finding a secure border preferable to a gift to those living here illegally. But it’s the second question which was even more interesting. There is clearly a more sympathetic tone across the nation for offering some citizenship advantages to those who have managed to somehow earn it in our collective opinions. But how do they merit this generosity? 80% – which is a huge margin – are in favor if the illegal immigrant has either “earned a college degree” or served our nation in uniform.

Why would you group those two together? It seems to me that if there are to be any head of the line privileges being handed out, they would be far more likely to go to those who have taken the oath, put on the uniform, taken up arms and served a tour in combat defending the nation. Compare that to those who were living here illegally, received possible scholarships or grants and blended in at college with the children of citizens to obtain a degree and a pathway to a top notch job. I’d guess that the former would be far, far more popular in terms of special treatment than the latter. Let’s split those two groups out and run the poll.

And finally, how is the process working for immigrants to get into the military in the first place? Granted, once they are in and have served the nation honorably on the field of battle, even I find myself thinking… yeah.. I can see putting them up toward the head of the line. I’d be shocked if many people wouldn’t give this group a bit more credit than any other subset of those seeking citizenship. But aren’t we screening our applicants to join the military a bit more closely than that and finding which ones are completely outside the system? You can be rejected for all sorts of criminal convictions before being allowed on the bus to boot camp. Are we just not checking closely enough or is there some sort of loophole to allow illegals to join? It would appear that there is not.

A non-citizen must meet certain requirements to be eligible to join the military. The must have an Alien Registration Receipt Card (stamped I-94 or I-551 Green card/INS Form 1-551) as well as a bona fide residence established with an established record of the U.S. as their home. If the non-citizens comes from countries with a reputation of hostility towards the U.S, they may require a waiver. The federal government cannot petition on behalf of an illegal immigrant so that they can obtain legal status and be able to enlist in the military. In order for an immigrant to join the United States military, they must first go through the immigration process of the USCIS (previously known as the INS) and then begin the enlisting process. Another requirement is that the Green Card and/or visa of the immigrant desiring to join the military must be valid for the entire period of their enlistment. Undocumented immigrants may not enlist in the U.S. military.

So if an illegal immigrant gets into the military, they must have done so surreptitiously and in violation of the law. If we were only talking about men and women with legal green card status joining and perhaps getting a bump up toward the head of the line for full citizenship, I’m pretty much in favor of it. If you were already in the legal pipeline and made that sort of sacrifice, it’s worth giving you some benefit on the back end. But if you lied about your status to join and were actually in the country illegally, then you were committing yet another crime (fraud?) when you signed up to enlist. I’m not seeing how this gives you a pass to a green card.

But perhaps I’m wrong here. What do you think? If they join and serve honorably, should they just get a green card by default?


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I’m not against giving citizenship to someone who serves in the military.

Someone who does that has at least done something FOR this country to earn citizenship, more than most citizens actually do.

What I AM against in ANY circumstance is to give citizenship OR legal status to criminals who invade our country (let’s not forget that EVERY illegal IS A CRIMINAL, they don’t like hearing that BUT IT IS TRUE!) and who do nothing but soak up all the welfare they can, AND depress job opportunities for AMERICAN CITIZENS by allowing employers to cheat the free market cost of labor.

Seal the border, redouble the border patrol, and start enforcing MANDATORY MINIMUM PRISON SENTENCES FOR EXECUTIVES of businesses who hire illegals.

You don’t need mass deportations if you turn off the magnets of welfare and employment. They got here on their own, they can LEAVE on their own.

ConstantineXI on February 8, 2014 at 8:39 AM

I support citizenship for those who serve. But I think the better way to handle the immigration issue is to just eliminate the Welfare State. That way those who want to work will still come. Those who want to mooch will have nothing to mooch off of.

And that day is not too far off either. Eventually, the spending will have to be curtailed radically. In the end, math always wins.

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 8:45 AM

But if you lied about your status to join and were actually in the country illegally, then you were committing yet another crime (fraud?) when you signed up to enlist. I’m not seeing how this gives you a pass to a green card.

Why Jazz, it’s almost as if you’re losing your RINO status and joining us Neanderthals.

However, there are documented cases where someone has lied to join our military and served honorably. Usually those involved lying about their age including Audie Murphy so I am forced to put aside that argument.

Honorable service within the military, I’ll grant citizenship. College indoctrination (it’s no longer education), no.

rbj on February 8, 2014 at 8:46 AM

If they are already here legally and serve in the military then they have earned citizenship. If they are illegal they shouldn’t be able to join the military in the first place. Those who were brought here as children should be looked at on a case by case basis as to whether they are productive and following the laws. But as someone said, if there is no incentive to be here they will leave. Companies that are employing illegals are breaking the law and should be prosecuted.

crankyoldlady on February 8, 2014 at 8:56 AM

Not just serve but serve honorably.

crosshugger on February 8, 2014 at 8:56 AM

Eventually, the spending will have to be curtailed radically. In the end, math always wins.

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 8:45 AM

True.

crankyoldlady on February 8, 2014 at 8:57 AM

Until Barack Obama is gone, there’s no sense in passing any immigration reform or talking about a path to citizenship. When our president ignores the immigration laws already on the books, (or changes them arbitrarily), as he does with other laws, then why believe he will respect any law passed by this congress?

Rovin on February 8, 2014 at 8:57 AM

Real americans come first in terms of everything. If there is a wait in line…I get the speed pass in front of them.

tomas on February 8, 2014 at 8:58 AM

Can someone explain to me why everify does not seem to limit access to jobs by illegals?

karenhasfreedom on February 8, 2014 at 8:58 AM

We already have perfectly good laws that nobody is enforcing. New laws will not be enforced either until we get rid of the politicians that are allowing it.

crankyoldlady on February 8, 2014 at 8:59 AM

Polls, goat entrails, casting the runes, reading the bones, the signs, omens, the taro, it’s all fraud.

Manipulating the gullible for political reasons.

If this were science, this would be testing the phrasing of a question to more accurately predict the response. Then you could manufacture the results you need to support a political conclusion.

Joseph OHenry on February 8, 2014 at 9:08 AM

But perhaps I’m wrong here. What do you think? If they join and serve honorably, should they just get a green card by default?

I have no problem with small percentages of our men and women being aliens from other countries, even waivers from hostile nations for those who show loyalty.

But the military cannot be an open area where other nations can seek to weaken the nation. Thus open slots should be minimal for aliens, and I would be willing to have some of those aliens be people who never were legal residents of the USA until they joined. Preferably people who did not sneak into the nation.

I think anyone who fights in war time for the USA should be on an express pathway to citizenship. Those who simply serve in peacetime or out of action theater can get 10 year green cards (each enlistment period) as an earned spot in the USA with the opportunity to become a citizen by going through the normal process.

As for the rest of the illegal aliens. I do not believe that it is constitutional to grant citizenship on children who just simply happen to be born an American soil any more than I think it is constitutional for the federal government to steal money from one group of people to hand over to another group of people in the form of social security, medicare and obamacare.

astonerii on February 8, 2014 at 9:12 AM

Compare that to those who were living here illegally, received possible scholarships or grants and blended in at college with the children of citizens to obtain a degree and a pathway to a top notch job.

Blended in? You have to be joking! You don’t “earn” diversity points that way! Viva La Raza! (see what I did there?) Only “white” looking Cherokee women like my heroine with the high cheek bones can do that. Why are conservatives so racist? /s

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM

As far as the immigrant getting a fast track via enlisting in the military, this is nothing new. I’ve known several who had done this in the 50′s and 60′s.

Kermit on February 8, 2014 at 9:18 AM

we used to charge people for fraudulent (not for age) enlistment, now we celebrate them.
UCMJ Article 83 iirc with max confinement of 5 years or so.

dmacleo on February 8, 2014 at 9:19 AM

I don’t trust our political or military leaders to do the due diligence necessary to ensure that illegals with nefarious aims don’t join the US military. In fact, I assume the current regime will actively recruit illegals with nefarious aims to join. It’s a two-fer: More democrat voters and the added bonus of destroying the military from within and turning it on its own citizens.

Rational Thought on February 8, 2014 at 9:23 AM

Why would you group those two together?

That Military and/or College question was a mealy-mouthed way of using the positive attitude towards the former to enable people to jump the line by way of the latter. It relies on people’s ignorance, and their isn’t enough pushback on the phrasing.

It is fraud, or more precisely, fraudulent enlistment.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 9:27 AM

astonerii on February 8, 2014 at 9:12 AM

We used to have a program like that with the Philippines. Those slots never went unfilled.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 9:29 AM

Perhaps the wrong thread, but gonna get this off my chest.

Caligula has deemed Congress irrelevant. He has a pen and he has a phone. Soon Bo (if not eaten yet) will take his place in the Senate. PETA will celebrate and donate heavily.

The Senate will cheer his wisdom, in fear of “backlash” from the unwashed masses. They will drain the coffers (our credit card from China) in order to gain His favor, in return he will prostitute them even more than they have already done themselves.

He will tear down the racist walls that prevent all from leeching off the of the American tax payer. Free everything for everybody!

Never despair though! He has stopped the water from rising! He has assured “social” justice! All will revere him and worship his name! He is the Won!

All hail Little Boots Obama!

In closing, I miss Resist We Much! Whatever happened to her?

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 9:38 AM

Since we’re reducing the size of the military and the economy still sucks, why do we need illegals in it?

What’s wrong with mass deportations?

bw222 on February 8, 2014 at 9:44 AM

Remember the old saying that Rome wasn’t built in a day? Well, it didn’t fall in a day either. It took progressives to make that happen, after all “You didn’t build that!”.

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 9:46 AM

No, they should not get a pass for providing false documentation in order to enlist. Serving in our military is a privilege, not to mention the national security issues at stake.

ezspirit on February 8, 2014 at 9:47 AM

Why Jazz, it’s almost as if you’re losing your RINO status and joining us Neanderthals.

rbj on February 8, 2014 at 8:46 AM

Being the most conservative author is like being the best running back on a team that averages 15 rushing yards a game.

bw222 on February 8, 2014 at 9:49 AM

Our military should be made up of American citizens. It should not be used as some kind of testing ground to see if someone has the right stuff to get legal status. I want our solders to defend us from whatever because they have skin in the game, this is their country and I don’t want my kids fighting with people who joined for a green card. Too risky. If we can’t get enough volunteers, then start the draft again. Kind of makes me chuckle to think of pajama boy types getting drafted.

KayK2 on February 8, 2014 at 9:51 AM

I think if we have a shortage of people joining the military, we should allow accelerated citizenship, or a prospective immigrant to come into the country ahead of others.

But I thought, last I looked, that the military had no shortage of recruits.

garghhh on February 8, 2014 at 9:52 AM

We used to have a program like that with the Philippines. Those slots never went unfilled.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 9:29 AM

This is true. I was stationed at Subic Bay for 18 months waaaaay back when. For one month of the year, the Navy took apps. In a given year they’d get 100,000+ apps. By treaty, the USN could take up to 1000 Filipino nationals, but the Navy had a self-impose cap of 400. We’d get the cream of the crop.

Not being citizens most of the jobs were closed to them, so they became cooks, personnel types, and medical/dental. Being a Hospital Corpsman I’d deal with tons of Filipinos on active duty.

I had this one Chief Petty Officer over me who had nearly three years of medical school under his belt. Then, his father died and no more money was available for his education. Scrubbing toilets in the USN was a step-up apparently.

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 9:52 AM

Being the most conservative author is like being the best running back on a team that averages 15 rushing yards a game.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying Jazz is the most conservative “Author” (I would have said blogger, don’t know if Jazz has completed a book yet) or are you saying that his team sucks? Inquiring minds want to know! :-)

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 9:59 AM

I think if we have a shortage of people joining the military, we should allow accelerated citizenship, or a prospective immigrant to come into the country ahead of others.

But I thought, last I looked, that the military had no shortage of recruits.

garghhh on February 8, 2014 at 9:52 AM

If we ever get that short on personnel that wish to defend this country we have already lost.

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 10:02 AM

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 9:52 AM

My stepson is a Corpsman, at Lejune. I’m retired FCCS, originally a DS.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 10:04 AM

I’m with Jazz on this one. I served in the Marines, I know the process of enlisting. An illegal would have a hard time getting in without the proper paperwork

border hawk on February 8, 2014 at 10:15 AM

My stepson is a Corpsman, at Lejune. I’m retired FCCS, originally a DS.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 10:04 AM

Now I remember you from Newby Opening Day. You were a skimmer. I eventually became a bubblehead. Why didn’t you go the bubblehead route? I spent my first enlistment at The Armpit of America: Camp LeJeune. Hated it.

I knew a woman who was a DS… ahhhhh, good times, good times. This is a family forum, after all.

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 10:22 AM

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 10:22 AM

I came in with the idea that I might sink for a living (Tom Clancy and all that), but by the time I enlisted (1988), DSs didn’t go to subs anymore, FTs took their spots.

What was her name? I may even know her. We’re a pretty tight community nowadays.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 10:31 AM

What was her name? I may even know her. We’re a pretty tight community nowadays

This was back in 1981.

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 10:34 AM

This was back in 1981.

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 10:34 AM

Still might know of her. My guess is that she was a UYK-65 tech on a sub tender where you made her acquaintance. Tenders were the only sea duty billets for women back in the day.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 10:41 AM

It’s been reported that MS-13 sends their new recruits to the military for advanced training. Just saying.

Cleombrotus on February 8, 2014 at 10:42 AM

Mr. Shaw:

Remember how long it took many of the Filipinos who enlisted into the Navy during WW II to become full citizens as promised by U.S.

MSGTAS on February 8, 2014 at 10:43 AM

Still might know of her. My guess is that she was a UYK-65 tech on a sub tender where you made her acquaintance. Tenders were the only sea duty billets for women back in the day

She was pulling shore duty at the Alameda Naval Air Station doing stuff she couldn’t tell me about. She got kicked out while she was at Alameda for having a Personality Disorder. Basically, she had had enough and wanted out, so she became a PITA.

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 10:45 AM

Most also see citizenship as an effective recruiting tool for the military

…didn’t the Romans do something like this once?….oh …..wait!

KOOLAID2 on February 8, 2014 at 10:47 AM

But if you lied about your status to join and were actually in the country illegally, then you were committing yet another crime (fraud?) when you signed up to enlist. I’m not seeing how this gives you a pass to a green card.

I will NEVER support granting citizenship to someone who lied while swearing allegiance to our country during induction to the military.

Besides, this encourages a mercenary class and is yet another magnet to break the law by entering illegally.

END THE MAGNETS!!!!

fred5678 on February 8, 2014 at 10:47 AM

But if you lied about your status to join and were actually in the country illegally, then you were committing yet another crime (fraud?) when you signed up to enlist. I’m not seeing how this gives you a pass to a green card.

I agree. People who enter or remain here illegally have illustrated bad character. Excuses for that run rampant but as to their decisions to enter and/or stay illegally (after even the dimmest bulb realizes that they’re here illegally if they somehow “didn’t know” about it earlier when the deed was done), but, ultimately, it is their statement of bad character.

Lying to get into the military as an illegal alien only compounds their statement of their bad charater. In these cases, though the nation may value their efforts “to serve,” is it really service? How could such a person be considered honrable?

I disagree that illegal aliens should be legalized by any context if and as they then, later, serve in the US military. I think they pose a continued threat to the nation, if not moreso afterward.

Lourdes on February 8, 2014 at 10:51 AM

I will NEVER support granting citizenship to someone who lied while swearing allegiance to our country during induction to the military.

Besides, this encourages a mercenary class and is yet another magnet to break the law by entering illegally.

END THE MAGNETS!!!!

fred5678 on February 8, 2014 at 10:47 AM

EXACTLY. Military training for illegal aliens is self-defeating as to the US. They’re here illegally, send them home.

Lourdes on February 8, 2014 at 10:53 AM

For the life of me, I can’t understand why illegal immigrants aren’t carved up into different categories and dealt with separately.

First, can’t we get rid of those who have committed any crime automatically?

Second, can’t we get rid of all visa overstayers? They’re 40% of the problem. Weren’t the 9/11 perpetrators visa overstayers? My position on these people is that they arrived with our consent, and they had a deal with us to leave after a certain time. I think these people should be deported WHENEVER we find them regardless of the circumstances.

Third, why hold out the welcome wagon for those who entered or remained on the basis of fabricated or stolen identities? This group has entered illegally and then committed a serious misrepresentation on top of that. Who wants fellow citizens like that? We know that they’re fundamentally dishonest. What next? Rampant voter fraud and other fraud once the get the right to vote.

This debate makes me puke because few people are calling out these criminals for what they are. Only after we deal with these adult criminals should we consider dealing with “dreamers.”

BuckeyeSam on February 8, 2014 at 10:56 AM

This is just worded to try and show support for the DREAM act. They should drop the college degree part and just put in honorable service from the military. if you want to go to college after your tour is up the military and the government have plenty programs that help with that. I got my degree on on the GI Bill so I am sure someone else can do it too.

someguyinnc on February 8, 2014 at 11:17 AM

I miss Resist We Much! Whatever happened to her?

been wondering myself, she ok?

dmacleo on February 8, 2014 at 11:23 AM

Must serve in actual combat.

Walking a flight line in Omaha while guarding a squadron of training jets doesn’t count.

Bishop on February 8, 2014 at 11:24 AM

What is it with this Pavlovian-like need to figure out a way, any way, please let us find SOME way, to reward an illegal for coming here?

xblade on February 8, 2014 at 11:30 AM

Second, can’t we get rid of all visa overstayers? They’re 40% of the problem.

BuckeyeSam

Guess what? The senate amnesty bill says you can overstay your visa as long as you want and still be eligible for citizenship. They don’t want to get rid of them. And that was a republican idea.

xblade on February 8, 2014 at 11:32 AM

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 10:45 AM

Ah, Alameda. I DID say it was a guess.

San Francisco has really gone downhill since the Navy packed up and left wholesale 20 years ago. Of course being a DS, I spent plenty of time at Mare Island. You? I know they had the “special” subs there like the Seawolf and Parche.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 11:34 AM

most in the military require a security clearance. how does that work with be illegal? do we just ignore that fact? How are the clearances to be done on them if we know nothing about them?

Personally, I think it is a bit insulting to those who joined to have to go through everything they do and then have someone who is here illegally join and not have to go through the same process.

Dannic on February 8, 2014 at 11:35 AM

“But perhaps I’m wrong here. What do you think? If they join and serve honorably, should they just get a green card by default?”

Why not do it like the UK for Gurkha soldiers? They’re widely considered some of the best soldiers in the British Army, and they have enormous public support over here too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3702436.stm

Four years in the US Army / USMC for citizenship seems both fair and honourable to me.

Teleros on February 8, 2014 at 11:43 AM

I think that citizenship should be granted to every person serving honorably for a predetermined number of years. it should be a reward to be granted for serving in the military.

augiedog54 on February 8, 2014 at 11:45 AM

Teleros on February 8, 2014 at 11:43 AM

Don’t know if it’s still the case after Subic closed down, but Filipinos had been serving in the USN without needing to be citizens. The process to get selected was rigorous and I don’t know of one of them from my ships who wasn’t already or planning to go career.

Bishop on February 8, 2014 at 11:53 AM

NiteOwl and dmacleo,

I’m a newbie but i’ve lurked here for awhile. No one knows what happened to Resist We Much. I believe I was the last to hear from her. She had responded to an e-mail I sent to her website. She sounded like she was really busy but upbeat. She’s touched a lot of minds and hearts hasn’t she? So many of us miss her.

31giddyup on February 8, 2014 at 12:00 PM

Ah, Alameda. I DID say it was a guess.

San Francisco has really gone downhill since the Navy packed up and left wholesale 20 years ago. Of course being a DS, I spent plenty of time at Mare Island. You? I know they had the “special” subs there like the Seawolf and Parche.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 11:34 AM

When I was in Alameda I was a general duty HM. I didn’t go subs until later in my career. In order to go subs you need to be at least a second class with two years time in rate, at least that’s how it was back when Noah and I sailed the seas.

307wolverine on February 8, 2014 at 12:11 PM

can someone explain to me how illegals can join the military when even the lowest of lowly grunts need secret clearance and have to fill out an sf86?

uatu1878 on February 8, 2014 at 12:16 PM

@dannic…the clearance process is a joke and security theatre from top to bottom.

the pencil pushers at DD1 will ding you for a bit of pot in your past (the sf86 is ridiculous is splitting out usage and purchase/selling btw…afterall how is someone supposed to use without having bought it in the past) but the same people will clear the likes of snowden.

And that’s IC clearances where its supposed to be more stringent.

I can imagine military ones are total jokes.

uatu1878 on February 8, 2014 at 12:19 PM

can someone explain to me how illegals can join the military when even the lowest of lowly grunts need secret clearance and have to fill out an sf86?

uatu1878 on February 8, 2014 at 12:16 PM

At least in the Navy three are plenty of jobs that don’t require a clearance – cooks, barbers, storekeepers, deckhands (Botswain’s Mates), and the like.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 12:35 PM

Is that the only way in for noncitizens?

I thought I recall some process that had enlistment papers being filed with US Embassies and consulates in their home countries, which would be unnecessary for green card holders.

jhnone on February 8, 2014 at 12:38 PM

Boatswain’s Mates. You think I’d get that right.

Jeff Weimer on February 8, 2014 at 12:52 PM

You don’t want foreigners frighting for you. It’s just common sense.

ALL THIS STUFF IS, IS A HOLE BIG ENOUGH TO LEGALIZE ANYONE THEY WANT.

aniptofar on February 8, 2014 at 12:54 PM

Sorry, but even leaving out the whole issue of security clearances and background checks, I’d have had serious issues with serving beside shipmates that I found out were illegal and then committed yet another crime by lying to enlist. I had to trust those that I served with to have my back and you’ve just proved (twice) that you’re untrustworthy. Screwing up on shore leave is one thing, basing you entire career on a lie is quite another.

Stragen_AK on February 8, 2014 at 1:03 PM

I wish I could take credit for this gem.

“Dear GOP;
Name the only nation in the world that millions can easily enter illegally, unduly influence elections, display their home country’s flag, selectively flout the law, impose their language and culture, accuse their hosts of racism, stage mass protests, form government funded seditious organizations, get preferential treatment ahead of citizens, demand citizenship before legal applicants, create a burgeoning labor black market, bear numerous children they can’t support and receive $free$ cash, food, housing, education, transportation and healthcare.”

Answer: The Obama Nation.

What has earned them the “right” to do all this, aside from voting Democrat?
PS: The illegals and their brethren will never vote for a Republican, no matter what you promise them.

azpatriotsdotcom on February 8, 2014 at 1:14 PM

So if an illegal immigrant gets into the military, they must have done so surreptitiously and in violation of the law.

Yes, it’s called fraudulent enlistment and is at minimum grounds for immediate discharge under less than honorable conditions. To get into the military as an illegal alien, the person would have had to provide fraudulent documents, like a fake birth certificate or green card. No, we shouldn’t reward that behavior with citizenship.

WarEagle01 on February 8, 2014 at 1:26 PM

31giddyup on February 8, 2014 at 12:00 PM

Thanks for the info, wish I knew more on why she quit here. She was amongst the best. Probably one of the few that could give Michelle Malkin a run for her money on accurate research and analysis. Never had the opportunity to comment or respond on her posts, but hopefully she has moved on to better things. Her talents were wasted here… but she will be missed! At least by me… :-(

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 1:37 PM

Yes, it’s called fraudulent enlistment and is at minimum grounds for immediate discharge under less than honorable conditions. To get into the military as an illegal alien, the person would have had to provide fraudulent documents, like a fake birth certificate or green card. No, we shouldn’t reward that behavior with citizenship.

WarEagle01 on February 8, 2014 at 1:26 PM

Ah, like my dad did in WWII. Overstated his age by two years, served in the Pacific. I guess they ought to go back and change his discharge to something less than Honorable, and retroactively strip him of his citizenship.

unclesmrgol on February 8, 2014 at 1:40 PM

aniptofar on February 8, 2014 at 12:54 PM

Again, I direct your attention to the Gurkhas, who I definitely DO want fighting for me! They’re superb soldiers, as anyone who’s fought besides them will tell you.

Now admittedly, Mexico is not Nepal. Still, given all the USA’s military commitments in recent years, I very much doubt that you’re going to get members of the US Army’s 1st Mexican Rifles (or whatever) joining because they expect a cushy 4 years followed by citizenship.

The ones looking for a safe means of getting US citizenship will no doubt continue with the time-honoured methods: getting in illegally & waiting for another amnesty (urgh), or applying legally like other civilians.

Teleros on February 8, 2014 at 1:48 PM

Are we going to go back and grant citizenship to all of the foreign citizens who served honorably in our armed forces as well?

When our ships were hitting mines in the gulf during Earnest Will, there were many Philippine citizens serving in the US military due to a program where they could enlist and serve, but they didn’t get citizenship. They took the same risks as the rest of us, on the flight decks, standing watches, manning boats etc.

This was at the same time that amnesty was granted under Reagan to anybody who could document they’d manage to break the law by being in the US illegally for 7 years. They got citizenship, but the guys serving our country, risking their lives, were told they weren’t good enough.

styrgwillidar on February 8, 2014 at 2:01 PM

I think I have figured out how to solve our path to citizenship problem, the UN won’t like it, but hey who cares what they say (Russia and China don’t). Illegals you want to be American? Fight a crusade in the Islamic world, chase all the crazy locals off it, gain the land, settle it, and we will let it become a new state in the union.

That is how we gained America, used immigrants from Europe to conquer new lands. This solves our Islamic jihad problem and our illegal problem in one blow, and not to mention gain new lands. Land ownership is the best way to gain new Americans, ones who fought for it. A new manifest destiny!

Yes I am joking, but….LOL!

William Eaton on February 8, 2014 at 2:03 PM

Ah, like my dad did in WWII. Overstated his age by two years, served in the Pacific. I guess they ought to go back and change his discharge to something less than Honorable, and retroactively strip him of his citizenship.

unclesmrgol on February 8, 2014 at 1:40 PM

Bless your Dad, he made a choice and it benefited the country he wished to live in. He definitely should be moved to the front of the line for citizenship. A fine example of obscure circumstances, but was he a combat soldier or a support soldier? And yes it does matter… if he served in the Pacific doing laundry it is hardly comparable with someone putting their life on the line.

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 2:07 PM

What the freak is up with the slow keyboard response on this? It seems to only happen when I quote someone… is this normal? I don’t really like having to double key everything 15 times to respond to a person with a quote… weird. I knew this site was old school, thought the capability would be better than the Obamacare website.

Heh, I was wrong. Had to edit this twice before I could post… Maybe too many of us nOObies overloaded capacity?

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 2:20 PM

unclesmrgol on February 8, 2014 at 1:40 PM

And was he already a citizen that tried to get in early because he knew we needed him? Details are important.

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 2:24 PM

I’m betting by putting both options in the same question, and putting military service at the end so it’s the one people most strongly remember, they probably upped the yes response to the poll question by 20 or 30%.

There Goes the Neighborhood on February 8, 2014 at 2:30 PM

I’d be all for an American Foreign Legion.

no prior legal issues (no gang members, no drug runners, ect) plus 6-8 years of good conduct, and you’re in. part of it, like the french foreign legion, is that you learn the language of your new country. and we get to send you to whatever craphole on the planet we need to have warm bodies occupying a patch of ground. I could see having separate legions based on the region the members came from (asian, south/central american, african, ect) and using these like we did “indian scouts” in the past.

officers and NCO’s will be americans early on, then later NCO’s replaced with AFL members who show exemplary service and decision making abilities.

continued service past 6-8 years gets you permission to bring to the US people beyond your immediate family, assuming those people will pass all usual immigration checks.

at no point should the AFL exceed 10% of the size of the standing US military.

warhorse_03826 on February 8, 2014 at 2:49 PM

Are you guys not familiar with the recruiting process for the military?

Recruiters will lie, give false impressions, find ways to bypass or in fact completely ignored requirements that you may not meet, and generally do anything and everything, whatever it takes to get you to sign on that bottom line.

If someone walks through that door, barring some egregious mental or behavioral issues, and is willing to go through with it, the recruiter is gonna find a way to get you in, and do anything it takes to convince those who are undecided about whether to go through with it.

It’s not that they don’t do checks or have protocols. It’s just that enrollment is more valuable than whatever they find.

Genuine on February 8, 2014 at 2:58 PM

There is, in fact, already a “path to citizenship” involving military service. But I don’t believe it applies to illegal aliens, but to legal aliens looking for citizenship. And it doesn’t guarantee immediate citizenship, just speeds it up somewhat.

That’s part of the problem with the illegal immigration we have today: we wind up lumping illegal aliens with those here legally, and automatically assume when we hear “path to citizenship” that it must apply to illegal aliens.

There Goes the Neighborhood on February 8, 2014 at 3:05 PM

So if an illegal immigrant gets into the military, they must have done so surreptitiously and in violation of the law. If we were only talking about men and women with legal green card status joining and perhaps getting a bump up toward the head of the line for full citizenship, I’m pretty much in favor of it. If you were already in the legal pipeline and made that sort of sacrifice, it’s worth giving you some benefit on the back end. But if you lied about your status to join and were actually in the country illegally, then you were committing yet another crime (fraud?) when you signed up to enlist. I’m not seeing how this gives you a pass to a green card.

I think, since you asked, Jazz, that your absolutely right. Those immigrants who served in our military legally would be the only group I would consider for special treatment.

The DREAMer’s, those illegal aliens who have gone to college or university in the US, and all illegal aliens in general have no right to expect, nor should they be granted, special treatment or relief from existing law.

thatsafactjack on February 8, 2014 at 3:06 PM

Recruiters will lie, give false impressions, find ways to bypass or in fact completely ignored requirements that you may not meet, and generally do anything and everything, whatever it takes to get you to sign on that bottom line.

Genuine on February 8, 2014 at 2:58 PM

Not true in my case… He told me straight up everything I would have to go through. I joined at age 17 (with parental consent).

It may happen in some cases… Can’t speak for everyone, but neither can you.

My oldest daughter also joined… no one lied to her either,

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 3:11 PM

We already have perfectly good laws that nobody is enforcing. New laws will not be enforced either until we get rid of the politicians that are allowing it.
crankyoldlady on February 8, 2014 at 8:59 AM

Well that’s not gonna happen. The way out electoral system works the companies and industries that hire illegal need only pour money and infrastructure into their preferred candidate and then your grassroots candidate that would hurt their bottom line goes down into obscurity.

Without industrial and business backing with their money, you don’t get into office in America. And this circumstance just intensifies exponential if it’s a national race.

Our government and our representatives are bought and sold. You can’t beat it. Regular folks don’t have the means, access, and influence to even remotely compete. We’re like t-ball players taking on a major league team.

It is in fact taxation without representation.

And funny that, actually. Those that actually ARE represented by those in offices end up getting perks and carve outs in the tax codes so that they hardly have to pay taxes. So it representation without taxation for them.

Welcome to America. Try not to argue against your own interests in the future.

Genuine on February 8, 2014 at 3:14 PM

Not true in my case… He told me straight up everything I would have to go through. I joined at age 17 (with parental consent).
It may happen in some cases… Can’t speak for everyone, but neither can you.
My oldest daughter also joined… no one lied to her either,
NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 3:11 PM

Whether you didn’t require a sell on the idea or not, are you really gonna sit there and say you’re NOT familiar with the fact and reality that this happens?

Recruiters are TRAINED to do whatever it takes. Whether it took much to get you or your daughter is irrelevant to the point that it happens. If you walk through that door, barring a serious mental or behavioral issue, you’re getting in. And if you’re just curious but could possibly be sold on the idea, they will do whatever it takes.

If a healthy illegal walks through that door who has at least a superficial enough public identity to have lived here for a year or two, they’re getting in.

Genuine on February 8, 2014 at 3:24 PM

I guess I should clarify MY position on it though.

If you have served a contract with the military and done your duty, you should be a citizen at the end.

I’d ever go so far as to say that serving in the military should be the easiest option to becoming an American citizen. You want to live here? I’d think it great if you just had to call the immigration office, submit to an application process for the military that examines your public record and life in your own country, then you can come straight over and we’ll send you on out to the desert or afghan mountains and when you’ve served your contract you come back a citizen.

Of course, that’s not the way it is nor is it an option at the moment. But I’d support that as an immigration policy in the blink of an eye. The fact that the current process takes so long, requires so much money, and so much effort is a driver of illegal immigration in the first place.

If I’m a poor Mexican with only terrible foreign fActory jobs available to me, why would I spend all the money I don’t have, all the time it would take while my family continues to struggle, and all the hoops I’d have to jump through only to quite possibly be told no or that it will be a decade or more from now, when I could just take a sh*tty few days hike and be here next week?

Our current immigration policies ENCOURAGE illegal immigration.

Genuine on February 8, 2014 at 3:32 PM

Genuine on February 8, 2014 at 3:24 PM

Perhaps you misread or didn’t comprehend? I said “Not true in my case…”

I even added wiggle room “It may happen in some cases.”

If the system for recruiting is so weak they can’t identify before induction who is at fault? The guy trying to do his job or a system that doesn’t tell him he’s barking up the wrong tree?

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Our current immigration policies ENCOURAGE illegal immigration.

Genuine on February 8, 2014 at 3:32 PM

I agree 100%

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 3:39 PM

My English is greatly diminished with either something happening on my computer or something on this site. Slow to no keyboard response… 20 minutes to even edit before submitting? Too much… perhaps my comp will adapt… I hope.

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 3:44 PM

I’m new to Hot Gas so I’m not sure if I should have read all 82 comments preceding mine, (probably should to not be redundant)anyway, let’s go for a flat tax and limit welfare (already noted) to dis-incentivize illegal immigration. I wrote both my Rep and Senator today.

the sidewalks are safe on February 8, 2014 at 3:50 PM

earns a college degree … should be given a chance to obtain U.S. citizenship

Those pushing the dream act seem to equate attending college on the taxpayer’s dime as having earned citizenship.

If they managed it while paying their own way I might consider it a legitimate path to citizenship but not if they expect to do it using my money.

agmartin on February 8, 2014 at 3:58 PM

The blanket statement that all recruiters lie is wrong. But, it would be interesting to know just how they verify citizenship in the recruiting process. I seem to remember having to provide a copy of my birth certificate but that was a lifetime ago.

Happy Nomad on February 8, 2014 at 4:03 PM

How is joining the military an acceptable way to gain naturalization because the immigrant “served” the country, but things like becoming a doctor, business-owner, teacher, etc. aren’t, even though the latter jobs are arguably far more important and helpful to the country than joining the military is. And by the way, not all soldiers actually participate in combat, and now that the ground wars are mostly over, this figure will decrease even further.

Federati on February 8, 2014 at 4:06 PM

Those pushing the dream act seem to equate attending college on the taxpayer’s dime as having earned citizenship.

agmartin on February 8, 2014 at 3:58 PM

That, at least, is more than the so-called path to citizenship being pushed by the Dems and surrender weasels. They frame it as if every illegal here is a hard worker causing no harm to society. Well, the Mexican drug cartels have whole distribution networks set up with illegals. McCain, Obama, Ryan, Rubio and the rest would sweep all these people up in their amnesty scheme.

Happy Nomad on February 8, 2014 at 4:07 PM

And by the way, not all soldiers actually participate in combat, and now that the ground wars are mostly over, this figure will decrease even further.

Federati on February 8, 2014 at 4:06 PM

Having served in combat or not should not be a litmus test for characterizing service. Honorable service is honorable service.

In fact, I don’t think we make as much of a distinction in this area as we should. Jim Webb’s crowning achievement in the Senate was to push through a GI Bill that is overly generous. I would have been happier (and it would have been far better public policy) had the law included tiered entitlements based on service in combat and or other factors. Not to diminish the service of those who didn’t go into combat to recognize their contribution by doing so.

Happy Nomad on February 8, 2014 at 4:13 PM

Our current immigration policies ENCOURAGE illegal immigration.
Genuine on February 8, 2014 at 3:32 PM

I may be wrong, but I think we all (mostly) agree on the problem. Solutions vary. I think it is a brilliant political move to tie college to military service. I disagree with the premise on face value, but for libs it’s a winner. They are currently leading the LIV’s and have the media in their corner.

Hopefully the LIV’s will wake up eventually… but by then it will probably be too late.

Call me a pessimist or whatever else you want, but a fear a new civil war is on our doorsteps. I sincerely hope I am dead before it breaks out because I would hate to have to kill a fellow American in pursuit of freedom that was indoctrinated in our Constitution.

The thought of it makes me sick. If we need people of foreign origin to fight our battles we are already lost. Rome was the best and highest tech too in battle. If you fail to learn from history you are doomed to repeat it!

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 4:22 PM

The blanket statement that all recruiters lie is wrong. But, it would be interesting to know just how they verify citizenship in the recruiting process. I seem to remember having to provide a copy of my birth certificate but that was a lifetime ago.

Happy Nomad on February 8, 2014 at 4:03 PM

Same here… AND had to have parental consent. Perhaps the system has changed?

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 4:24 PM

We already have perfectly good laws that nobody is enforcing. New laws will not be enforced either until we get rid of the politicians that are allowing it.
crankyoldlady on February 8, 2014 at 8:59 AM

Exactly right.

For these polls, the question should be asked as, “do you support granting amnesty to illegal aliens, allowing them to have a special, fast track to citizenship, or do you believe current immigration law should be applied to them, and enforced, as it is with all other immigrants?”

America is not in favor of mass illegal alien amnesty. Shame on any so-called conservative who supports this. Amnesty would benefit the left for decades, and would eventually ensure that we are unable to elect a conservative president.

Most people believe in giving others “a chance.” The term “path to citizenship” is unclear, sounds fair to them and gives people looking to be compassionate an option to choose in polls, other than deportation.

bluegill on February 8, 2014 at 4:32 PM

If we need people of foreign origin to fight our battles we are already lost.

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 4:22 PM

People of “foreign origin” have been fighting alongside natural-born Americans since literally the Revolution itself, and this not even counting foreign countries, without whose contributions in troops, intelligence, diplomacy, and technology-sharing America might very well be some poor, irrelevant vassal of a foreign government.

Federati on February 8, 2014 at 4:37 PM

But perhaps I’m wrong here. What do you think?

Perhaps you’re right in thinking you’re wrong here.

If they join and serve honorably, should they just get a green card by default?

Yes.

If you were already in the legal pipeline and made that sort of sacrifice, it’s worth giving you some benefit on the back end.

That sort of sacrifice made applies to all those that serve, citizen or not.

It’s worth giving some benefit on the back end to all the nots that made it.

Were already in the legal pipeline’s got nothin’ to do with it.

rukiddingme on February 8, 2014 at 4:37 PM

How is joining the military an acceptable way to gain naturalization because the immigrant “served” the country, but things like becoming a doctor, business-owner, teacher, etc. aren’t, even though the latter jobs are arguably far more important and helpful to the country than joining the military is. And by the way, not all soldiers actually participate in combat, and now that the ground wars are mostly over, this figure will decrease even further.

Federati on February 8, 2014 at 4:06 PM

Spoken like a someone that never served. Doctors, teachers, and “Business Owners” are VERY important. Not nearly as important as the people that protect their ability to ply their crafts though.

Think, then speak. “It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 4:41 PM

Yes, it’s called fraudulent enlistment and is at minimum grounds for immediate discharge under less than honorable conditions…

WarEagle01 on February 8, 2014 at 1:26 PM

In the end, Bautista was honorably discharged and arrived in Los Angeles in July 2009.

A fine example of obscure circumstances, but was he a combat soldier or a support soldier? And yes it does matter…

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 2:07 PM

During 10 years in the U.S. Army, Luis Lopez served in Iraq and Afghanistan, won medals and had a commander laud his service as a “critical part of the success of his unit fighting the global war on terrorism.”

Mr. Lopez is also an illegal immigrant.

rukiddingme on February 8, 2014 at 4:43 PM

People of “foreign origin” have been fighting alongside natural-born Americans since literally the Revolution itself, and this not even counting foreign countries, without whose contributions in troops, intelligence, diplomacy, and technology-sharing America might very well be some poor, irrelevant vassal of a foreign government.

Federati on February 8, 2014 at 4:37 PM

Straw man argument. I never said allies weren’t important. I never said refuse help. You are deflecting. Why?

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 4:44 PM

Bad polling method? Say it is not so!

OregonPolitician on February 8, 2014 at 4:45 PM

Spoken like a someone that never served. Doctors, teachers, and “Business Owners” are VERY important. Not nearly as important as the people that protect their ability to ply their crafts though.

Think, then speak. “It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

NiteOwl on February 8, 2014 at 4:41 PM

They are all important, but on a day-to-day basis those who keep the economy and society running are more important than the guy standing a post waiting for a baddie to attack. I have rarely met a soldier who think the fate of the country rests on them; being a soldier is mostly not fighting off enemies at all, and now with the wars winding down and as we shift to a reliance on spec-ops, drones, etc. and away from regular warfare and invade-and-occupy tactics, the average soldier’s importance in national security will drastically decrease.

Federati on February 8, 2014 at 4:48 PM

USA 2012 NCO Soldier of the Year

Christien on February 8, 2014 at 4:50 PM

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