AP: The Vatican has a “glass ceiling” for women in the priesthood, or something

posted at 3:21 pm on January 27, 2014 by Ed Morrissey

This weekend, Pope Francis encouraged women to take an active role in the Catholic Church, using their spiritual and natural gifts in their role as laity to provide leadership. This led the Associated Press to remark that the Church has a “glass ceiling” for ordination …. of course:

Pope Francis on Saturday lauded women for their sensitivity toward the society’s weak and “gifts” like intuition, insisting they take on greater responsibilities in the Catholic church, as well as in professional and public spheres.

Francis was full of praise about female talent and untapped potential in a speech at the Vatican to an Italian women’s group. But the pope gave no sign that the Vatican glass ceiling against ordaining women for the priesthood might see some cracks during his papacy.

First, the “glass ceiling” metaphor refers to blocking access to promotions for women in business. There is no “glass ceiling” in the priesthood for women because Catholic doctrine limits the priesthood to men. That’s a barrier to entry, not a “glass ceiling.” This is bad writing, not to mention silly nonsense.

This doctrine is very accessible in the Catholic Catechism (paragraphs 1577-8 in particular) and canon law, both freely available to the public. The role of priest (and therefore bishop, cardinal, and Pope) is reserved to men because Christ himself chose only men for those roles — even though women, including His own mother, took active roles in other ways to build the early Church.  Women who wish to consecrate their lives to service are encouraged to enter religious orders, which women do control, with ultimate (temporal) authority remaining with the Pope.

Certainly, some people disagree with this doctrine and want the doctrine to change with the times. Any expectation that Francis will deliver that kind of change is a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the pontiff. Doctrines are eternal truths, not fashions to be changed on a whim.  The Pope has no more room to change doctrine on this point than he does on abortion. This isn’t a practice, such as celibacy for priests in the Latin Rite, which can be changed — but only if the Pope and the bishops come to a consensus that it should. Doctrine does not change, and the Church has always stressed this position on ordination is doctrine.

Nevertheless, the AP thinks that Francis will face some sort of test on this point:

The Vatican has cracked down swiftly and severely on any women who defy the ban by being ordained priests, trying to discourage female ordination movements that have some support in the U.S. and western Europe.

Seven women who said they were ordained as priests in a ceremony on the Danube River were excommunicated by the Vatican a few weeks later during the papacy of John Paul II, who, like Francis, often praised women for their talents and what he called special “charisma.” And during the papacy of Benedict XVI, the predecessor of Francis, the Vatican defrocked a priest who had supported women’s ordination and had participated in a 2008 ceremony of female ordination.

Since Francis has stressed mercy as a dominant characteristic of his pontificate, any more female ordinations would present a highly-watched occasion to see how he would handle such a grave violation of church teaching.

The AP has quite a research department, eh? First, Francis has already shown himself to be entirely consistent on enforcing obedience to doctrine, as the Leadership Conference of Women Religious discovered last April, less than a month after Francis took over. The news service also missed the story of former priest Greg Reynolds, who found himself excommunicated over his insistence on ordaining women as priests the month after that in an order direct from the Vatican. I guess these incident weren’t “highly-watched” enough to draw the AP’s attention.

Pope Francis has made mercy and love the hallmarks of his pontificate, but that’s quite a bit different than saying “anything goes.” Mercy comes after contrition and penance, and all will be welcome to the Church — but the Church as it is and has been for two thousand years. Perhaps this comes as a shock to the AP, but the Pope is still — and will always be — Catholic.

Update: I forgot to post the hat-tip, so here goes:

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Don’t trust anything the LSM has to say about Christianity, it is a completely foreign concept to them…

OmahaConservative on January 27, 2014 at 3:25 PM

The MSM remains bitterly disappointed about the continuing absence of the long-desired encyclical “Sanctus Libido.”

Mr. D on January 27, 2014 at 3:29 PM

Huh, so the Roman Catholic Pope is Catholic. Who knew?

rbj on January 27, 2014 at 3:29 PM

Mercy comes after contrition and penance

Mercy, like the Grace of God, is unearned. It just has to be freely accepted.

HornHiAceDeuce on January 27, 2014 at 3:31 PM

Their ignorance about this is astounding, especially as the Church makes all of its teachings freely available.
its like they can’t google
http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm

Iblis on January 27, 2014 at 3:33 PM

As any Catholic knows full well Mary, the mother of God has been crowned as Queen of Heaven, and no pope can ever hope to reach such honor, but then those radical feminists are really more interested in tearing down God’s Church on earth than in making it more holy.

Don L on January 27, 2014 at 3:33 PM

Perhaps this comes as a shock to the AP, but the Pope is still — and will always be — Catholic.

he’ll be here all week, folks…and….try the veal!

:)

ted c on January 27, 2014 at 3:36 PM

Mercy, like the Grace of God, is unearned. It just has to be freely accepted.

HornHiAceDeuce on January 27, 2014 at 3:31 PM

Very true. I think the AP was speaking in the context of the Church in its evangelism, as was Francis, though. I’m addressing that particular point.

[edited for clarity -- Ed]

Ed Morrissey on January 27, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Well, you know that there’s a whole school of thought that says Mary Magdalene was really one of the 12 Disciples, and that later Men wrote her out of the gospels and called her a prostitute because Gender Bias, or something.

The wacky part is that this isn’t really a new idea; thoughts along these lines go back at least as far as the Merovingians. Sang Real and all that.

Tom Servo on January 27, 2014 at 3:37 PM

This nonsense isn’t just restricted to Catholics. There is a vocal minority in the LDS church who demands that they be ordained too.

The usual response is “I wish you could be! Then YOU could deal with all of this! Like listening to confessions, counseling couples, and generally herding cats. Staffing a congregation, etc.”

Man, if women held the Priesthood, I can think of quite a few men in my faith that would be more than pleased to turn all of the work over to them. They could have it!

Vanceone on January 27, 2014 at 3:37 PM

This is what normal people call “wishcasting”. And no, it doesn’t work.

Johnnyreb on January 27, 2014 at 3:38 PM

Certainly, some people disagree with this doctrine and want the doctrine to change with the times. Any expectation that Francis will deliver that kind of change is a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the pontiff. Doctrines are eternal truths, not fashions to be changed on a whim.

Doctrines do “develop” though. You’re playing semantic games if you insist they can never be changed.

red_herring on January 27, 2014 at 3:42 PM

The women pretending to be priests are heretics who commit sacrelige…Hence the ex-communication.

Pretty simple really…and if un-repentant at the time of death they will rot in eternal hell.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 3:45 PM

I’ve just come to assume that the MSM and the “women priests now!” lefties all simply hate nuns.

Spade on January 27, 2014 at 3:47 PM

Very interesting in looking more in depth to Mary’s role in Jesus’ ministry. Very much a pair doing work, as opposed to a mother watching helplessly to her son’s march to crucifixion. I have never studied her in all that much detail in the past.

Zomcon JEM on January 27, 2014 at 3:47 PM

How many male nuns are there?

Kafir on January 27, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Actually, I think the Church will have to reconcile this at some time.

The most precious gift we have is children (according to Jesus), and the Church allows women to teach the children, to run Sunday schools, but won’t let them lead a church of adults?

It is just nonsensical…

They can teach children, form the basis of their Christian/Church beliefs, but not allow them to do the same for adults.

Jesus’s most trusted were the women, the ones who stood by him to the end…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

How many male nuns are there?

Kafir on January 27, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Nun…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Doctrines do “develop” though. You’re playing semantic games if you insist they can never be changed.

red_herring on January 27, 2014 at 3:42 PM

Can the RCC change it’s teachings about the divinity of Christ, too?

What makes you think you know which RCC doctrines are up for debate?

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Jesus’s most trusted were the women, the ones who stood by him to the end…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Exactly. I mean, that’s why he specifically chose Mary, Martha, and Mary to come with him and pray in the Garden of Gethsemane because he wanted their support most. Right?

makattak on January 27, 2014 at 3:55 PM

What makes you think you know which RCC doctrines are up for debate?

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

The poster didn’t say they knew, just that doctrines do change over time…

At one time the Pope’s were married, correct?

And over the decades, since the reformation, the Church teachings have changed, correct?

Most of Luther’s 95 Thesis have been put in effect over the generations…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:57 PM

They’re also probably upset that there’s no more “Pizza n’ Pepsi” Masses, like in the ’70s.

Ward Cleaver on January 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM

Very interesting in looking more in depth to Mary’s role in Jesus’ ministry. Very much a pair doing work, as opposed to a mother watching helplessly to her son’s march to crucifixion. I have never studied her in all that much detail in the past.

Zomcon JEM on January 27, 2014 at 3:47 PM

If you haven’t thought much on it before, it should interest you to know that most Biblical scholars today consider the Gospel of Luke to be, at least in part, a transcription of Mary’s own words, as told to Luke later in her life. That would be why Luke has so much more information on the Nativity than any of the other Gospels, and why it contains unique items such as the text of the Magnificat, and the hymn of Simeon – who else would have known those things, but Mary herself???

It gives one an entirely different perspective on Luke’s writing, and since Luke was always associated with Paul, it leads us to believe that she was as well acquainted with Paul as she was with the rest of the apostles.

Tom Servo on January 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM

Well, you know that there’s a whole school of thought that says Mary Magdalene was really one of the 12 Disciples, and that later Men wrote her out of the gospels and called her a prostitute because Gender Bias, or something.

The wacky part is that this isn’t really a new idea; thoughts along these lines go back at least as far as the Merovingians. Sang Real and all that.

Tom Servo on January 27, 2014 at 3:37 PM

Yaaaaaawwwwnnnn.

Ward Cleaver on January 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM

Exactly. I mean, that’s why he specifically chose Mary, Martha, and Mary to come with him and pray in the Garden of Gethsemane because he wanted their support most. Right?

makattak on January 27, 2014 at 3:55 PM

Yes, that is why the men were there at the end to care for Him, right? They were the ones who denied Him, right?

See, anyone can take passages and remove them for their own debate…but there is no debate, the women, at a time when they were not supposed to be anything but property, were honored by Jesus.

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM

How many male nuns are there?

Kafir on January 27, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Nun…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Oh brother.

Nick_Angel on January 27, 2014 at 3:59 PM

The poster didn’t say they knew, just that doctrines do change over time…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:57 PM

Yes, and the sky appears blue to most people, too.

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 4:00 PM

Jesus’s most trusted were the women, the ones who stood by him to the end…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Exactly. I mean, that’s why he specifically chose Mary, Martha, and Mary to come with him and pray in the Garden of Gethsemane because he wanted their support most. Right?

makattak on January 27, 2014 at 3:55 PM

It would have been a better choice, no?

Tom Servo on January 27, 2014 at 4:00 PM

Ed:

I would also add to what you wrote an explanation of “in persona Christ – in the person of Christ” and how the Catholic Clergy ( Biships, Priests and Decons ) fulfill this. This is central to why women can never be priests.

Cadian on January 27, 2014 at 4:06 PM

Doctrines do “develop” though. You’re playing semantic games if you insist they can never be changed.

red_herring on January 27, 2014 at 3:42 PM

Doctrine and Tradition cannot conflict.

The role of the Priest in the Mass cannot be performed by a woman as this would present a sacramental conflict.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 4:08 PM

The writer must have never stepped inside a Catholic church.

Otherwise, the obvious pun of “Stained Glass Ceiling” would have been made.

Snowblind on January 27, 2014 at 4:11 PM

Certainly, some people disagree with this doctrine and want the doctrine to change with the times.

Doctrines are eternal truths, not fashions to be changed on a whim.

are you serious? you actually think that the only reason that people want that doctrine to be changed is “because of the times” and “on a whim?” no it’s not like women are upset or confused by that doctrine, nooo. it’s just because it’s a silly fad for the sake of being trendy, right? there’s no legitimate reason that women should feel upset by this, right?

i’m not catholic, but i am baptist and among many baptists there are still some restrictions on women in church leadership roles- and those restrictions are followed in my own church. i love my church, except for that. my dad is one of the church leaders. my mom and my dad are both strong Christians, and they both help the church in various ways. but my mom never has a chance to be a church leader, because she’s… a she.

i don’t understand it, and there are other Christians who feel the same way i do and they have different opinions on whether or not there should be restrictions on women. (it’s not that they don’t read the Bible. they do read it, but they interpret the Bible’s words differently) you can disagree with those people, but it’s unfair to dismiss their views as just a whim, a fad to keep up with modern times.

Sachiko on January 27, 2014 at 4:18 PM

If you haven’t thought much on it before, it should interest you to know that most Biblical scholars today consider the Gospel of Luke to be, at least in part, a transcription of Mary’s own words, as told to Luke later in her life. That would be why Luke has so much more information on the Nativity than any of the other Gospels, and why it contains unique items such as the text of the Magnificat, and the hymn of Simeon – who else would have known those things, but Mary herself???

It gives one an entirely different perspective on Luke’s writing, and since Luke was always associated with Paul, it leads us to believe that she was as well acquainted with Paul as she was with the rest of the apostles.

Tom Servo on January 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM

That has always been the tradition within the church.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 4:23 PM

but it’s unfair to dismiss their views as just a whim, a fad to keep up with modern times.

Sachiko on January 27, 2014 at 4:18 PM

It’s sad that people can be so unfair like that, isn’t it? lol

Overemotional people like you obviously don’t understand how the RCC hierarchy works.

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 4:24 PM

Francis was full of praise about female talent and untapped potential in a speech at the Vatican to an Italian women’s group. But the pope gave no sign that the Vatican glass ceiling against ordaining women for the priesthood might see some cracks during his papacy.

The problem I have with the AP’s line of reasoning is the idea that women who enter orders as nuns or otherwise serve the church somehow contribute less because they don’t get to wear the big funny hats. Ordained or not, many a parish is run by the womenfolk.

Happy Nomad on January 27, 2014 at 4:27 PM

If you haven’t thought much on it before, it should interest you to know that most Biblical scholars today consider the Gospel of Luke to be, at least in part, a transcription of Mary’s own words, as told to Luke later in her life.

Tom Servo on January 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM

Most? I would suggest that “many” would be a better word. There is little about Scripture that MOST scholars agree about.

Happy Nomad on January 27, 2014 at 4:29 PM

Sachiko on January 27, 2014 at 4:18 PM

The fundamental error in women’s ordination arguments is that it is argued that being a priest is an elevation and a status symbol, and not a humbling and a sacred vow to service. It gets the purpose of ordination completely backward, as if priest is a natural promotion from altar girl (itself controversial) or Eucharistic minister or lector.

Men can devote their entire selves to be shepherds.
Women have the sole ability to bear new life.

Given God loves His creation, and knew all of us before we were knitted in our mother’s womb, He clearly holds the latter in far greater esteem.

Why can’t women value what is unique to them? Why must they always see what men are charged to do and say “Me Too! Me Too!”

BKennedy on January 27, 2014 at 4:30 PM

are you serious? you actually think that the only reason that people want that doctrine to be changed is “because of the times” and “on a whim?” no it’s not like women are upset or confused by that doctrine, nooo. it’s just because it’s a silly fad for the sake of being trendy, right? there’s no legitimate reason that women should feel upset by this, right?

i’m not catholic, but i am baptist and among many baptists there are still some restrictions on women in church leadership roles- and those restrictions are followed in my own church. i love my church, except for that. my dad is one of the church leaders. my mom and my dad are both strong Christians, and they both help the church in various ways. but my mom never has a chance to be a church leader, because she’s… a she.

i don’t understand it, and there are other Christians who feel the same way i do and they have different opinions on whether or not there should be restrictions on women. (it’s not that they don’t read the Bible. they do read it, but they interpret the Bible’s words differently) you can disagree with those people, but it’s unfair to dismiss their views as just a whim, a fad to keep up with modern times.

Sachiko on January 27, 2014 at 4:18 PM

Priests perform a sacramental functions that women cannot perform. This isn’t symbolic but real for Catholics.
Tradition holds equal weight to scripture in Catholicism.

That isn’t going to change.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 4:34 PM

Priests perform a sacramental functions that women cannot perform. This isn’t symbolic but real for Catholics.
Tradition holds equal weight to scripture in Catholicism.

That isn’t going to change.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 4:34 PM

It’s always amuses me when I see those people get so excited before they take the time to see what the Magisterium teaches. :)

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 4:38 PM

Women CAN lead the Church, the just cannot be part of the Sacramental priesthood.

Now, granted, I’m Orthodox and I don’t know how the RCC does things on many levels, but we have some excellent women theologians, many of our women saints are called “eisapostolos” meaning equal to the apostles, they serve on our Parish Councils (including as Chairs), they run many of our Archdiocesan and diocesan departments.

Nor do we make quite the distinction among our monastics, both male and female are called monks. All those who are tonsured (i.e have taken vows) are referred to as Father, or Mother respectively. Only a few male Monks are priests, those necessary to serve the monastery.

A male priesthood is one of our “Big T” traditions. It’s not going to change, like say the style of singing might which is a “little t” tradition.

What I don’t understand though, is if you don’t want to believe what we believe, and live as we do, why don’t you go and be with people who live and believe as you do? Why force us to change to fit your beliefs?

jnials on January 27, 2014 at 4:39 PM

The fundamental error in women’s ordination arguments is that it is argued that being a priest is an elevation and a status symbol, and not a humbling and a sacred vow to service. It gets the purpose of ordination completely backward, as if priest is a natural promotion from altar girl (itself controversial) or Eucharistic minister or lector.

Men can devote their entire selves to be shepherds.
Women have the sole ability to bear new life.

Given God loves His creation, and knew all of us before we were knitted in our mother’s womb, He clearly holds the latter in far greater esteem.

Why can’t women value what is unique to them? Why must they always see what men are charged to do and say “Me Too! Me Too!”

BKennedy on January 27, 2014 at 4:30 PM

Another fundemental error is the ignorance of sacremental functions of the clergy.

Priests perform the mass,baptisms,marriages,confessions,last rites and the funeral mass…All of these revolve around his chief function of the Mass.

Jesus performed the Mass at the Last Supper

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 4:42 PM

But they’ll get the Redskins to change their name, surely the PC police can get women in the priesthood.

MT on January 27, 2014 at 4:43 PM

Whatever you do, Ed, do NOT lose that pic !
Thinkin there’ll be use for it quite often.
Made me giggle.

pambi on January 27, 2014 at 4:43 PM

The problem I have with the AP’s line of reasoning is the idea that women who enter orders as nuns or otherwise serve the church somehow contribute less because they don’t get to wear the big funny hats. Ordained or not, many a parish is run by the womenfolk.

Happy Nomad on January 27, 2014 at 4:27 PM

I agree.

Convents and their administration have been largely autonomous to a great degree but they also work within the authority of the Bishop and the Pope (The Bishop of Rome).

Why is that?

Because even Nuns need the sacrements and must rely on Priests to perform them for them…just like the rest of the flock.

The two… nuns and priests work together in service to the flock…each according to their roles and their orders.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 4:53 PM

What I don’t understand though, is if you don’t want to believe what we believe, and live as we do, why don’t you go and be with people who live and believe as you do? Why force us to change to fit your beliefs?

jnials on January 27, 2014 at 4:39 PM

Because that’s how severely ignorant & insecure people always act…

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 4:53 PM

What I don’t understand though, is if you don’t want to believe what we believe, and live as we do, why don’t you go and be with people who live and believe as you do? Why force us to change to fit your beliefs?

jnials on January 27, 2014 at 4:39 PM

Can priests marry? Can the Pope be married?

See how “tradition” and doctrine changes depending on the time and the whim?

Priests have been married, Pope’s have been married…even have children.

The apostle Peter, the “rock” whom the church was built upon was married…what is good enough for Peter surely is good enough for the rest of the Church.

So what do you believe, what the Church now says, what is has said in the past, what the Bible states?

Seems you are in a church you are not quite sure what the doctrine is…oh, you may know what it is now, which is different from the bible, that is different from it’s history…get it?

Are you ruled by doctrine, or by the Bible?

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 4:55 PM

You haven’t gotten a facepalm until you’ve gotten….

THE PAPAL FACEPALM!

CurtZHP on January 27, 2014 at 4:56 PM

First, the “glass ceiling” metaphor refers to blocking access to promotions for women in business. There is no “glass ceiling” in the priesthood for women because Catholic doctrine limits the priesthood to men. That’s a barrier to entry, not a “glass ceiling.” This is bad writing, not to mention silly nonsense.

So they had to twist and bend the facts a little to make it fit their narrative.

After all, “glass ceiling” is kind of like a barrier to entry, right?

As John Leo used to say, you really need to understand that every reporter before he writes a story decides what the narrative will be — the theme, if you will.

Some stories are “the little guy against the powerful.” Some are “man bites dog.” Some are “bigotry against homosexuals.” (very popular at the moment) Some are “hero achieving success against all odds.” They loved Wendy Davis, because they could use a couple narratives at once.

In this case, “glass ceiling” is a shorthand for “women being held back from success by old guard misogynistic bigots.” So “glass ceiling” it is, whether it actually makes sense or not.

There Goes the Neighborhood on January 27, 2014 at 4:57 PM

Because that’s how severely ignorant & insecure people always act…

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 4:53 PM

Or it’s from people who actually embrace the history of the Church and know that doctrine does change…and that doctrine that is counter to Biblical teachings are at risk.

Luther found that out 1,500 years ago, and the Catholic Church has, for the last 1,500, been trying to reconcile that. And it has made some great concessions.

As most church’s have…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 4:58 PM

Or it’s from people who actually embrace the history of the Church and know that doctrine does change…and that doctrine that is counter to Biblical teachings are at risk.

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 4:58 PM

That isn’t the whole truth…can the RCC change it’s doctrine about Jesus’ divinity, for example?

I won’t bother responding to you here again unless you demonstrate you understand exactly what is alterable within the RCC.

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 5:04 PM

If you haven’t thought much on it before, it should interest you to know that most Biblical scholars today consider the Gospel of Luke to be, at least in part, a transcription of Mary’s own words, as told to Luke later in her life. That would be why Luke has so much more information on the Nativity than any of the other Gospels, and why it contains unique items such as the text of the Magnificat, and the hymn of Simeon – who else would have known those things, but Mary herself???

It gives one an entirely different perspective on Luke’s writing, and since Luke was always associated with Paul, it leads us to believe that she was as well acquainted with Paul as she was with the rest of the apostles.

Tom Servo on January 27, 2014 at 3:58 PM

All due respect, but when I hear or read “most Biblical scholars today,” I figure that what comes next is about 90% wrong.

Women had huge roles in the early churches, as anyone reading the ends of some of Paul’s epistles would have known. Those roles were not pastoral, but they were quite important and vital.

But Luke was a companion of Paul, Silas, and Barnabas, all of whom were apostles. He was also a historian. I would fully expect him to use all resources at his disposal in writing both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts.

There’s no reason to presume that the Gospel of Luke was really written by Mary. Luke would have had no problems at all in finding people to talk to when researching his book.

There Goes the Neighborhood on January 27, 2014 at 5:09 PM

The two… nuns and priests work together in service to the flock…each according to their roles and their orders.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 4:53 PM

Exactly! Is the AP really suggesting that Mother Teresa’s work was lessened by the fact that she wasn’t named a Bishop or Pope?

Happy Nomad on January 27, 2014 at 5:10 PM

The beginning of the last chapter of Romans:

Romans 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

And at the very end of Romans:

Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the Church at Cenchrea.

Seems Phebe was entrusted with delivering the epistle to the Romans when Paul wrote it.

There Goes the Neighborhood on January 27, 2014 at 5:15 PM

How many male nuns are there?

Kafir on January 27, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Nun…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Oh brother.

Nick_Angel on January 27, 2014 at 3:59 PM

The question is, How many brides does a dead Jew need?

S. D. on January 27, 2014 at 5:17 PM

Why can’t women value what is unique to them? Why must they always see what men are charged to do and say “Me Too! Me Too!”

BKennedy on January 27, 2014 at 4:30 PM

Awww, so they should be property?

A women can value what is unique to them and still lead, yes?

Just like a man, the hunter, can hunt and still lead…or does a man only value what is unique to him and only hunt…

Good grief, why can’t women stay pregnant and in the kitchen!!

You think baptizing a child is better suited to a man, than a woman?

Really, what are the cases of nun’s molesting children, verses the wonderful priests who have molested children?

Who is more “Godly” as a group towards children…Nun’s or the men who for decades hid the dark secret at so many parishes…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 5:18 PM

The question I have is, How many brides does a dead Jew need?

S. D. on January 27, 2014 at 5:17 PM

Fixed! :)

You need some attention, huh?

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 5:22 PM

Or it’s from people who actually embrace the history of the Church and know that doctrine does change…and that doctrine that is counter to Biblical teachings are at risk.

Luther found that out 1,500 years ago, and the Catholic Church has, for the last 1,500, been trying to reconcile that. And it has made some great concessions.

As most church’s have…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 4:58 PM

ehemmm…Martin Luther wasn’t alive 1500 years ago.

Sheeesh…

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 5:25 PM

I won’t bother responding to you here again unless you demonstrate you understand exactly what is alterable within the RCC.

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 5:04 PM

Whatever they want…I gave you examples that you conveniently ignore.

Maybe a clarification, doctrines, true doctrines are unchanging…but we are talking about the dogmas, a sub set, the loosening of those dogmas to allow women to become priests. To allow priests to marry, to allow Pope’s to marry…

Indulgences, which Luther so gratefully showed the Church how wrong they were, are mostly eliminated…

But Dogma’s are often given the same weight as doctrines, so it becomes blurred.

The dogmas, doctrines, rules, practices and disciplines, all get mixed in together, and over the decades, and hundreds of years they get confused…is the Pope infallible or not? Eat meat on Friday, not ever a problem in Mexico, but here i the U.S. it was a problem…

I doubt any Catholic could cite the doctrine of the Church and separate it from the dogma without serious Googling…

Yet Dogma’s are supposed to be divine truths, unyielding, from God…but God doesn’t change His mind…or does He?

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 5:35 PM

Progressives inside and outside the LDS Church are trying to do the same thing. They want LDS women to hold the Priesthood. The same reason that those who held the Priesthood were always men and it is reserved to men because Christ himself chose only men for those roles and because its doctrine.

Conservative Samizdat on January 27, 2014 at 5:38 PM

ehemmm…Martin Luther wasn’t alive 1500 years ago.

Sheeesh…

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 5:25 PM

Luther born 1483, I get it…it was just a number, to show change has taken place over 2,000, 1500, 1,000 years…that change takes place.

Sheeeshhh…focusing on what is not important, a misplaced date…good grief.

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 5:38 PM

Whatever they want…I gave you examples that you conveniently ignore.

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 5:35 PM

lol

Both of those assertions are complete lies…I can see your intellectual limit, and thus my interest in interacting with you further, has been reached. :)

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 5:41 PM

Really, what are the cases of nun’s molesting children, verses the wonderful priests who have molested children?….

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 5:18 PM

How many nuns are there in the USA? I don’t see women lining up. This to do is alot about nothing.

Oh and btw …. the incidents per capita for priests molesting children is not that far off the general population. The Church failed even more so in their handling of these people(mostly homosexuals).

CWchangedhisNicagain on January 27, 2014 at 5:44 PM

The same reason that those who held the Priesthood were always men and it is reserved to men because Christ himself chose only men for those roles and because its doctrine.

Conservative Samizdat on January 27, 2014 at 5:38 PM

You are right, Jesus also didn’t use a phone, do the priests?

Women, in those days, had no authority, no rights, they were chattel, now they are not, why women are even allowed to vote…imagine.

They were not “citizens” as we view them, they didn’t exist as they do now, so they could not hold any position of power, none…get it.

Just like Jesus couldn’t use a phone because it didn’t exist…a “free woman” didn’t exist either.

But the LDS have enough problems balancing their belief with biblical scripture that that is the least of your worries…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 5:45 PM

Luther born 1483, I get it…it was just a number, to show change has taken place over 2,000, 1500, 1,000 years…that change takes place.

Sheeeshhh…focusing on what is not important, a misplaced date…good grief.

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 5:38 PM

No…just indicative of other elements of your arguments which border on the absurd.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 5:45 PM

right2bright is quite the historical revisionist…eh?

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 5:46 PM

Exactly. I mean, that’s why he specifically chose Mary, Martha, and Mary to come with him and pray in the Garden of Gethsemane because he wanted their support most. Right?

makattak on January 27, 2014 at 3:55 PM

And yet they fell asleep, didn’t they?

ladyingray on January 27, 2014 at 5:49 PM

right2bright said:

Can priests marry? Can the Pope be married?

See how “tradition” and doctrine changes depending on the time and the whim?

Again, you are mistaking “little t” tradition for “Big T” tradition, moreover, you missed the part where I said I am Orthodox. We have (and always have had) a married priesthood. Our bishops are monastics or widowers by tradition and canon law (which is changeable by any council), but our priesthood is male by doctrine and Tradition.

It is our stubborn unwillingness to change that Tradition which is the deposit of the faith in its entiriety which has put us at odds with our Roman Catholic brethren. It also put us at odds historically with Arianism, Pelagianism, Monophysitism, Gnosticism, and all the heresies of the early Church that oftentimes come back today in different guises.

jnials on January 27, 2014 at 6:12 PM

Indulgences, which Luther so gratefully showed the Church how wrong they were, are mostly eliminated…Indulgences, which Luther so gratefully showed the Church how wrong they were, are mostly eliminated…

right2bright

Ehemmmm….no

The RCC still grants indulgences…Pope Benedict XVI was quite free with them.

Sorry if you’re disappointed.

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 6:12 PM

jnials…It was quite the site to see the Patriarchs and Bishops gather at the tomb of St. Peter with St. Francis wasn’t it?

: )

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 6:16 PM

meant to say Pope Francis…

android…ugh!

workingclass artist on January 27, 2014 at 6:18 PM

workingclassartist:

That it was. I never said we couldn’t be friends or work together. We just need the RCC to come around and start being a little more Orthodox. Works really nicely, not having to be infallible and such.

jnials on January 27, 2014 at 6:21 PM

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 5:18 PM

It’s insufferably stupid and beneath your quality of posting to interpret “men and women have different functions and purposes ordained by God” to “women should be property.”

The Protestant MegaChurches have also had their fair share of diddlers and their vanguards, though all churches PALE in comparison to the pedophilia enabling the public schools enable to go on.

Try harder.

BKennedy on January 27, 2014 at 6:22 PM

It’s insufferably stupid and beneath your quality of posting to interpret “men and women have different functions and purposes ordained by God” to “women should be property.”

BKennedy on January 27, 2014 at 6:22 PM

I disagree with that assessment of r2b’s posts – I’ve seen him go similarly nutzoid too many times already! :)

Anti-Control on January 27, 2014 at 6:34 PM

Why is it that we can not have a discussion about the Catholic Church without bringing up the priest scandal?
I love directing people to the below website that has pages and pages of women teachers who are sexual offenders.
There are sick people everywhere…but we only ever hear about those in the Catholic Church….

http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/39783/

vitaatcaritas on January 27, 2014 at 6:53 PM

Breaking: The Pope is … still Catholic.

Huh, so the Roman Catholic Pope is Catholic. Who knew?

rbj on January 27, 2014 at 3:29 PM

I’m gonna need to a reference on that. Seems there’s a few rumors to the contrary.

Quartermaster on January 27, 2014 at 8:17 PM

How many male nuns are there?

Kafir on January 27, 2014 at 3:50 PM

Nun…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 3:52 PM

Oh brother.

Nick_Angel on January 27, 2014 at 3:59 PM

(:->)

KOOLAID2 on January 27, 2014 at 10:52 PM

It’s insufferably stupid and beneath your quality of posting to interpret “men and women have different functions and purposes ordained by God” to “women should be property.”

BKennedy on January 27, 2014 at 6:22 PM

I guess I need to type slower…I was pointing out that historically women could not have held any high post, in most any position in religion, politics, or any other area of life, they were property, therefore Jesus could not have them “lead”, they were just pieces of property. Women leadership did not exist…just like slavery and the acceptance did exist…social roles change, unless you think biblically that social roles should roll back 2,000 years.

Which would be pretty interesting to roll back all of the social strata of 2,000 because that is how the bible says it should be…

I never said they should be property, I think that is beneath your quality of posting to misread what I posted, I said they were property, they had no position in life.

Are you thinking that men and women had equal status socially 2,000 years ago? Really?

Goodness, when someones ideas are debated reading comprehension drops…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 11:28 PM

There are sick people everywhere…but we only ever hear about those in the Catholic Church….

http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/39783/

vitaatcaritas on January 27, 2014 at 6:53 PM

That’s because it was rampant, it was covered up, it was only addressed when it was legally and financially forced to resolve the issue.

Hundreds, maybe thousands of mostly young boys lives were ruined…ruined by the actions and inaction of the Church, mainly in America.

And because it is so recent and prolific, the Catholic Church is branded as being the “leader” in this respect.

In a generation or so, after they have proven themselves, it will just be a part of their past, like Popes who had committed heinous crimes.

The Lutheran Church suffers the same fate for the support, or at least the ignoring of what the Germans were doing to the Jews…

right2bright on January 27, 2014 at 11:34 PM

If you want to know the difference between a faith belief doctrine in Sacred Tradition (capital “T”) and a discipline or tradition (small “t”) look at the history of the Church and the Church today.

There have always been married and celibate priests.

In the early Church there were married priests and celibates. St. Peter and St. James were married, St. John and St. Paul were celibates.

Today there are married and celibate priests in the Catholic Church. The Western/Latin/Roman Church today has celibate priests. The 21 or so Eastern Catholic Churches allow married men to become priests, just like in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. There are even today a few married Western priests who were Anglican priests who converted to Catholicism.

A discipline can vary from East to West and over the centuries.

Same with various liturgies throughout the centuries and East and West. Same with various fasting disciplines.

A faith Tradition never varied.

There have never been women priests for all the many reasons people have posted here. There never can be and there never will be.


There were deaconesses in the early Church, but even they were not the same as the male deacons
. They sometimes baptized women for modesty’s sake during full immersion baptisms. They also brought food or help or ministry to sickly or shut in women, when it was unseemly for a male to enter the house alone.

Like someone said, the roles women played were not lesser roles. Women have always been part of the backbone of the Church. And women have always preached and taught. The New Testament mentions prophetesses who preached. But they did not preach during the celebration of the Eucharist at Mass. Never.

St. Peter’s wife traveled with him and evangelized herself. We have writings from St. Clement in the 1st Century that tell us this firsthand. (Interestingly, the couple remained continent and celibate. Doesn’t say at what point this started. )

So just like in the past, today women lead Bible studies in the Catholic Church and evangelize His Word in many ways and ministries. Just not during Mass as priests.

Elisa on January 28, 2014 at 12:05 AM

How many male nuns are there?

Kafir on January 27, 2014 at 3:50 PM

There are many orders of brothers and monks who are not priests and remain celibate.

Elisa on January 28, 2014 at 12:07 AM

As any Catholic knows full well Mary, the mother of God has been crowned as Queen of Heaven, and no pope can ever hope to reach such honor, but then those radical feminists are really more interested in tearing down God’s Church on earth than in making it more holy.

Don L on January 27, 2014 at 3:33 PM

What a beautiful post. Thank you.

Elisa on January 28, 2014 at 12:09 AM

It’s nothing compared to the “glass-ceiling” for women, non-muslims and animals in Islamic society?

Will AP run an article on the sacred muslim duty of honor-killings?

Clearly, the authors just completed their journalism internship and ran their copy by a recently-hired liberal-arts graduate editor at the AP. Finding the content fresh and stimulating, they approved this mass broadcast of their fathomless ignorance of world affairs.

virgo on January 28, 2014 at 12:22 AM