The Toby Keith restaurant “no guns” policy non-story

posted at 2:01 pm on December 29, 2013 by Jazz Shaw

Say, have you heard about the latest huge, outrageous news on the gun rights front? Country music star Toby Keith has a new restaurant in Woodbridge, Virginia where he’s trying to stomp all over the Second Amendment rights of Unites States citizens, and conservative gun owners and bloggers across the land are ready to take to the streets with pitchforks and torches to bring down the singer. Except for one small problem: essentially nothing in the preceding sentence is true.

The brouhaha in question seems to have begun with a fairly innocuous story in the local news.

WOODBRIDGE, Va. – A new restaurant that recently opened in Woodbridge is sparking a Second Amendment controversy, especially online.

The restaurant named for country music star Toby Keith has posted a “No guns permitted” sign on its front door and gun rights supporters are blasting the restrictions on the chain’s Facebook page.

Clearly, linkbait like that – particularly during the slow news cycle between Christmas and New Years – was too much to resist, and liberals were quick to jump all over the story. The Raw Story launched into a breathless account of the erupting turmoil.

Conservatives and gun activists are in high dudgeon over a sign outside country singer Toby Keith’s new Virginia bar and grill that says “No Guns Permitted.”

According to Washington, DC’s WTOP, the sign has provoked an explosion of outrage online. Many gun rights advocates took to Twitter and other social media to denounce Keith as a “gun hating liberal,” a “fake,” and a “Republican In Name Only” or “RINO.”

Mediaite upped the stakes a fair bit with their own brand of excitement.

Toby Keith shocked many of his fans this week with a sign outside his new I Love this Bar and Grill in Virginia that reads “No guns allowed!” Virginia law allows people to carry guns into restaurants, but individual establishments reserve the right to make the call for themselves, and Keith’s is bothering quite a few people.

Sadly for all concerned, there are more holes in this story than the soles of a four dollar pair of shoes after running a marathon. First and foremost, the supposed “outrage” (more on that below) is being directed at Toby Keith. What none of these outlets seemed to have done was check one of the essential facts which the local news station actually did uncover. I’ll highlight it below for those who missed it.

Some comments accuse Keith, who doesn’t own the restaurant, of being anti-gun.

The franchise is named after one of Toby Keith’s bigger hits, I Love This Bar. While their website doesn’t list any specifics, I’m sure they had to pay the country legend a fee to use his name and the name of his tune to market their eateries. Keith is not the owner and isn’t making policy for seating arrangements. I suppose he might be able to pull his name from them if he disagrees strongly enough, but that would depend on the terms of the deal they initially signed.

Second, the sign does not blast out, “No guns allowed!” as Mediaite claimed. It actually is composed of gray block letters on the glass door and reads, “No Guns Permitted.”

NoGunsPermitted

As to the vast hordes of conservatives who are in high dudgeon or otherwise “outraged”, this seems to be a product of liberal imagination. The only widely read conservative outlet I saw mentioning the story was a three paragraph piece by AWR Hawkins at Breitbart. And even that one was essentially an accounting of the reported events without editorializing much beyond noting that Keith also wrote a song called Bullets in the Gun, indicating what could be interpreted as support for the rights of gun owners. (It should be noted that Breitbart chose a graphic for their story with some other bar that had a sign saying “No Guns Allowed” which may be where Mediaite picked up that line.)

The liberals drumming up this story instead relied on publishing a short collection of comments left on the restaurant’s Facebook page. And let’s face it… you can go to Grumpy Cat’s Facebook page and find somebody with enough free time on their hands that they decided to leave a comment claiming the feisty feline is an alien. I’m really not seeing an army of angry, conservative Second Amendment supporters ready to lynch Toby Keith at this point.

But since I can’t write anything about gun rights without editorializing a bit myself, let’s pretend for the moment that this story was exactly as billed. This isn’t really a Second Amendment question, since that right is designed to protect us from the government, not places to get wings and cheese sticks during a football game. If the actual owners and management of the restaurant choose to not have patrons in an open carry state bring their guns on the premises I don’t see this as being much different than enforcing a dress code at upscale dining establishments. It will be the invisible hand which determines the joint’s fate, not the government. If enough people are bothered by the policy they won’t eat there and the business will fail as diners vote with their feet and their wallets. Granted, the policy will probably make the place a much tastier target for any potential thieves in the greater Woodbridge area, but nobody is forcing the rest of us to eat there, so c’est la vie.

In the end, I highly doubt that Toby Keith has suddenly changed stripes and joined the Deplorable Nanny State Mayor’s anti-gun group or signed up for the Socialist Party. Either way, we should probably hear from him before we begin fitting him for a tar and feathers tuxedo. To close, here’s the video of the song which originally inspired the name of the restaurant. It’s a fun little tune in case you’ve never heard it.


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I’ve got a CCW and could care less what a sign up front says (with the obvious exceptions of certain state and federal facilities).

John_G on December 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM

So liberals are lying once again. That’s a shocker.

HumpBot Salvation on December 29, 2013 at 2:08 PM

LOLZ!

OmahaConservative on December 29, 2013 at 2:09 PM

i knew he was a wuss when he cried about not being personally interviewed by Sarah.

no wonder Country music never awards him with anything.

he’s a dixie chick.

renalin on December 29, 2013 at 2:09 PM

renalin on December 29, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Did you read what Jazz wrote? TK doesn’t own the joint…

OmahaConservative on December 29, 2013 at 2:16 PM

But since I can’t write anything about gun rights without editorializing a bit myself, let’s pretend for the moment that this story was exactly as billed. This isn’t really a Second Amendment question, since that right is designed to protect us from the government, not places to get wings and cheese sticks during a football game.

Actually, the second amendment simply says that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It never specifies who the infringing party is, unlike the first amendment, which is specifically directed against Congress.

Stoic Patriot on December 29, 2013 at 2:17 PM

…my liberal sister went there to eat as soon as it opened…to support it…………I was wishing for a salmonella surprise!
…nothing major!…just enough…to give her the shits!

KOOLAID2 on December 29, 2013 at 2:18 PM

You folks do know how Toby Keith gets the meat served in those restaurants, don’t you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSSafJ5mh5A

radjah shelduck on December 29, 2013 at 2:20 PM

…my liberal sister went there to eat as soon as it opened…to support it…………I was wishing for a salmonella surprise!
…nothing major!…just enough…to give her the shits!

KOOLAID2 on December 29, 2013 at 2:18 PM

Good ol KOOLAID, a man after my own heart.

arnold ziffel on December 29, 2013 at 2:26 PM

When all said and done It is like blaming FedEx for being short changed at a beer stand at FedExField. Blame Toby Keith for something done for which he has no control over.

tjexcite on December 29, 2013 at 2:31 PM

I’ve got a CCW and could care less what a sign up front says (with the obvious exceptions of certain state and federal facilities). John_G on December 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Ditto.

And it’s nice jazz threw in a little french,,

C’est la vie, indeed.

wolly4321 on December 29, 2013 at 2:32 PM

…nothing major!…just enough…to give her the shits!

KOOLAID2 on December 29, 2013 at 2:18 PM

We can say “shits” on HA? Wow!

Vince on December 29, 2013 at 2:33 PM

Isn’t issuance of permits for firearms done by the county sheriff?

It’d be rather queer for a restaurant to handle that.

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 2:33 PM

First, it was a mostly non-story to me.
Second, it reminded me of the numerous times before when the vast majority of you were conned by a phony, or half-true story by little more than pajama bois, verbaldouches and garage mahals.

Hell, even one of the libdies doesn’t try to make shitup.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:35 PM

I’ve got a CCW and could care less what a sign up front says (with the obvious exceptions of certain state and federal facilities).

John_G on December 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Nice to know you don’t care about private property rights. I’ve got news for you, but a concealed carry permit does not mean you get to take the gun anywhere you want, regardless of an establishment’s rules. This restaurant is a privately owned establishment, and they have every right to determine whether or not to allow guns on their private property.

Shump on December 29, 2013 at 2:36 PM

We can say “shits” on HA? Wow!

Vince on December 29, 2013 at 2:33 PM

Isn’t issuance of permits for firearms done by the county sheriff?

It’d be rather queer for a restaurant to handle that.

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 2:33 PM

…and “queer” !

KOOLAID2 on December 29, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Nice to know you don’t care about private property rights.

Shump on December 29, 2013 at 2:36 PM

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Project much, Shemp?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Stoic Patriot on December 29, 2013 at 2:17 PM

I see what you’re saying, but really only the govt. can “infringe” on the right, no? A restaurant can’t actually do that, as nobody is forced to eat there. I spoke to Ed about this one and he agreed that this falls more under the private property issue. You don’t have to allow anyone in your home carrying a gun if you don’t wish to. The eatery doesn’t either. They can also bar you for not wearing a tie and jacket. They may go out of business, but it’s probably within their rights to set that rule.

Jazz Shaw on December 29, 2013 at 2:41 PM

I’ve got a CCW and could care less what a sign up front says (with the obvious exceptions of certain state and federal facilities).

John_G on December 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM

With that attitude you may soon be typing ‘I use to have a CCW’.

meci on December 29, 2013 at 2:44 PM

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Project much, Shemp?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Not sure how your comment makes any sense. What I said is true. A private property owner is under no obligation to let anyone on their property who is carrying a gun. Period. A restaurant owner doesn’t have to let you in their restaurant with a gun any more than I have to let you in my house with one. A concealed carry permit is not a magical pass to go anywhere you want with your gun, without restrictions.

Shump on December 29, 2013 at 2:44 PM

I’ve got a CCW and could care less what a sign up front says (with the obvious exceptions of certain state and federal facilities).

John_G on December 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Project much, Shemp?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Well I’ll second Shump, Lane…it’s obvious JohnG or you or Stoic Patriot, don’t pay much attention to private property rights…My HOUSE, MY RULES…

I say, “let’s talk Gay Marriage and get have a drink”

You can say, “No thanks” and leave or talk gay marriage and have a beer…

You don’t get to say, “No I have a Constitutional Right”…because the Constitution stopped at my door.

So no, you don’t care about MY rights as a property owner if you CCW in spite of my rules…and if I were to find out you’d done so, I’d toss you all out of my house or my restaurant…and tell you to never come back.

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 2:46 PM

I believe it is a misdemeanor in VA to drink alcohol and have a concealed weapon while in a Bar. So, in reality, the bar owner is doing the CCW holder a favor.

Taser on December 29, 2013 at 2:48 PM

Nice to know you don’t care about private property rights. I’ve got news for you, but a concealed carry permit does not mean you get to take the gun anywhere you want, regardless of an establishment’s rules. This restaurant is a privately owned establishment, and they have every right to determine whether or not to allow guns on their private property.

Shump on December 29, 2013 at 2:36 PM

Actually, the 2nd amendment says you can take a firearm anywhere you damn well please, it’s just that now nobody pays any attention to what that document says.

Tim Zank on December 29, 2013 at 2:50 PM

Not sure how your comment makes any sense. What I said is true. A private property owner is under no obligation to let anyone on their property who is carrying a gun.

Shump on December 29, 2013 at 2:44 PM

Makes perfect sense if you’re a secret liberal.

A house is private property.

A restaurant is not. Once you allow the public in, it becomes open to the public.

You aren’t allowed by law to discriminate unless it poses a health or safety hazard.

CCW poses no safety hazard. Hence the reason it must be concealed from the view of regular persons.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:50 PM

I believe it is a misdemeanor in VA to drink alcohol and have a concealed weapon while in a Bar. So, in reality, the bar owner is doing the CCW holder a favor.

Taser on December 29, 2013 at 2:48 PM

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/virginia.aspx

No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board, may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises.

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 2:51 PM

It applies to concealed carriers as well.

federale86 on December 29, 2013 at 2:52 PM

Wish I could buy a cake store next to the bar and post a sign that says “No Service To Gays.”

ndanielson on December 29, 2013 at 2:52 PM

Well I’ll second Shump, Lane…it’s obvious JohnG or you or Stoic Patriot, don’t pay much attention to private property rights…My HOUSE, MY RULES…

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 2:46 PM

Once again, genius, your house, your rules.
You open your house to the public, and the Constitution and local & state laws are full of anti-discrimination statutes with more arriving every day.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:53 PM

I’ve got a CCW and could care less what a sign up front says (with the obvious exceptions of certain state and federal facilities).

John_G on December 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Same here. What they don’t know won’t hurt them.

tommyboy on December 29, 2013 at 2:53 PM

Wish I could buy a cake store next to the bar and post a sign that says “No Service To Gays.”

ndanielson on December 29, 2013 at 2:52 PM

I wish you could, too.

After all, according to some here, your house, your rules.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:54 PM

Actually, the 2nd amendment says you can take a firearm anywhere you damn well please, it’s just that now nobody pays any attention to what that document says.

Tim Zank on December 29, 2013 at 2:50 PM

No it doesn’t…no Constitutional Right is ABSOLUTE…try and take a firearm into a prison and see how waving the 2A works…or try to bring one into my house, if I don’t allow firearms in and see how that works….

You sir or madam are no better or worse than any other zealot trying to make his/her hobby horse obsession MY hobby horse obsession…whther that obsession is Crossfit, gay marriage or Keeping and Bearing…

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 2:56 PM

With that attitude you may soon be typing ‘I use to have a CCW’.

meci on December 29, 2013 at 2:44 PM

With that attitude you may soon be typing, “I used to have an PC”.

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 2:57 PM

I wish you could, too.

After all, according to some here, your house, your rules.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:54 PM

Heck, if someone clever would attach a sign prohibiting gays to the one prohibiting guns…

ndanielson on December 29, 2013 at 2:58 PM

Once again, genius, your house, your rules.
You open your house to the public, and the Constitution and local & state laws are full of anti-discrimination statutes with more arriving every day.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:53 PM

Yep. I mean if libtard judges can demand bakeries to bake cakes for gays and force pharmacists to provide the morning after pill, then conservatives should be granted the same “right” to carry their gun anywhere.

Which is why I always carry in my auto despite my boss saying I can’t.

I’d rather ask for forgiveness from 12 than permission from 1.

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:00 PM

Once again, genius, your house, your rules.
You open your house to the public, and the Constitution and local & state laws are full of anti-discrimination statutes with more arriving every day.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:53 PM

Again, oddly a number of folks seem to be backing me both on procedural (legal) and substantive grounds…

“No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service”///No Fire Arms…willing to bet I win in court.

I love the hubris of some of you people…

You don’t have to turn up at my bar…and if you want to boycott it, feel free…and get as many of your friends to boycott it to, that’s your right. But it certainly is my right to say “No Firearms.”

Same here. What they don’t know won’t hurt them.

tommyboy on December 29, 2013 at 2:53 PM

Beyond the fact that is found out, you’ll be on the road to be an EX-CCW holder….but I love the respect the Rule of Law has with certain Conservatives.

We like the Law UNTIL it crimps our style….

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:01 PM

MILLER: Beretta won’t move to Virginia due to Terry McAuliffe’s gun-control agenda

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/dec/23/terry-mcauliffe-election-gun-control-means-beretta/

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 3:02 PM

Which is why I always carry in my auto despite my boss saying I can’t.

I’d rather ask for forgiveness from 12 than permission from 1.

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:00 PM

And if you get terminated for violating company policy? Any complaining?

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:03 PM

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 2:56 PM

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Where’s the part about Toby Keith’s Bar? Was it deleted in my copy?

Tim Zank on December 29, 2013 at 3:04 PM

Again, oddly a number of folks seem to be backing me both on procedural (legal) and substantive grounds…

“No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service”///No Fire Arms…willing to bet I win in court.

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:01 PM

Willing to bet you’d have a 50/50 chance of winning, depending on whether you got a PC activist judge or not.

I love the myopia of people like you.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:04 PM

Beyond the fact that is found out, you’ll be on the road to be an EX-CCW holder….but I love the respect the Rule of Law has with certain Conservatives.
JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:01 PM

“Accidently” failing to notice a sign isn’t a basis for revoking a CCW permit in my state. Sorry, you lose. I also sneak my own peanuts into pro football games and I don’t lose any sleep over that one either.

tommyboy on December 29, 2013 at 3:05 PM

You don’t have to turn up at my bar…and if you want to boycott it, feel free…and get as many of your friends to boycott it to, that’s your right. But it certainly is my right to say “No Firearms.”

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:01 PM

Can we say “No Gays?”

ndanielson on December 29, 2013 at 3:05 PM

And if you get terminated for violating company policy? Any complaining?

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:03 PM

Well the, they’d have to illegally search her to find out, now wouldn’t they?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:05 PM

Once again, genius, your house, your rules.
You open your house to the public, and the Constitution and local & state laws are full of anti-discrimination statutes with more arriving every day.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 2:53 PM

The Constitution has not one single anti-discrimination provision that applies to anyone other than the federal government. Because it is a document with the sole purpose of laying out the structure of the federal government and what it can and cannot do. No provision of the Constitution places any restriction on what I can or cannot do with my private property. Nor will you find a single distinction in the Constitution between a private house and a business that is “open to the public.”

Yes, there are anti-discrimination LAWS regarding private businesses. However, those laws are unconstitutional. Oh, I know the Supreme Court has said they’re Constitutional, but the Supreme Court also says its a Constitutionally-protected right to murder a baby and that Obamacare is a tax. So we know what their opinion of the Constitution is worth.

Private property rights are the foundation of a free society, and they trump virtually everything else.

Shump on December 29, 2013 at 3:06 PM

Where’s the part about Toby Keith’s Bar? Was it deleted in my copy?

Tim Zank on December 29, 2013 at 3:04 PM

Say where’s the part about being able to bring your firearm into prison?

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:07 PM

I see what you’re saying, but really only the govt. can “infringe” on the right, no? A restaurant can’t actually do that, as nobody is forced to eat there. I spoke to Ed about this one and he agreed that this falls more under the private property issue. You don’t have to allow anyone in your home carrying a gun if you don’t wish to. The eatery doesn’t either. They can also bar you for not wearing a tie and jacket. They may go out of business, but it’s probably within their rights to set that rule.

Jazz Shaw on December 29, 2013 at 2:41 PM

That’s a fair point. A restaurant could say that they’re not infringing on your right to keep and bear arms, rather they’re just stopping you from walking onto their grounds because you are exercising that right.

But there is a possible slippery slope with such an interpretation though. The government could just as easily ban people from entering public parks with guns and claim that they’re not stopping you from keeping and bearing arms, they’re just denying you access to a particular space because you’re exercising that right. While recent case law has essentially refuted this, and I think such a refutation is wholly appropriate since rights do limit one another (e.g., my right to have a gun doesn’t mean I can use it however I please and shoot someone else), I’m skeptical that the letter of the law really supports this, since “infringement” is never defined, nor the parties potentially guilty of it named.

At issue is what constitutes a right. If someone can set policies, punishments, or cordon off areas based on the exercise of a given right, be that the public or private sectors, then those rights can quickly become grossly limited, if not rendered devoid of meaning (e.g., Murphy9′s example of it being illegal to drink and possess a firearm in Virginia prompts questions as to what other measures to curtail gun-wielding is possible).

Yet if we allow rights to be considered absolute, where no policy or practice can be set in response to the exercise of those rights, then we risk the emergence of cases in which competing rights (such as private property vs. bearing arms) create contradictions.

Stoic Patriot on December 29, 2013 at 3:07 PM

“Accidently” failing to notice a sign isn’t a basis for revoking a CCW permit in my state. Sorry, you lose. I also sneak my own peanuts into pro football games and I don’t lose any sleep over that one either.

tommyboy on December 29, 2013 at 3:05 PM

If your firearm is noticed(printing/exposed), you will be asked to leave. That is where you should probably comply.

The grocery stores put signs up after CCW was passed. They remained up for a few years before they took them down. My credit union “encourages” members to carry.

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 3:07 PM

Beyond the fact that is found out, you’ll be on the road to be an EX-CCW holder….but I love the respect the Rule of Law has with certain Conservatives.
JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:01 PM

“Accidently” failing to notice a sign isn’t a basis for revoking a CCW permit in my state. Sorry, you lose. I also sneak my own peanuts into pro football games and I don’t lose any sleep over that one either.

tommyboy on December 29, 2013 at 3:05 PM

And here in Florida, the penalty for carrying a concealed weapon into a place of nuisance is a misdemeanor and $25 fine.
No mention in the statute of revocation.

But there’s that illegal search & seizure thing again…

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:08 PM

Well the, they’d have to illegally search her to find out, now wouldn’t they?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:05 PM

Or see it in her car or read about it on her Facebook and ask her, or a number of other ways….

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:09 PM

Say where’s the part about being able to bring your firearm into prison?

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:07 PM

Say, where’s that part about prisons being open to the public?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:09 PM

Say, where’s that part about prisons being open to the public?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:09 PM

Zank hasn’t gone with the “public house” argument…he’s gone with the 2A applies to him, unconditionally…read his posting.

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:10 PM

The thing about concealed carry…it’s concealed, nobody knows.

Carry on!

trs on December 29, 2013 at 3:12 PM

Personally, in 90% of the cases I don’t care if you CCW…but generally, public buildings and bars I’m Ok with bans…and I’m always OK with a private property owners saying “No Gunz” if s/he wants to.

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:12 PM

“If your firearm is noticed(printing/exposed), you will be asked to leave. That is where you should probably comply.” And I would. But nobody ever has or ever will “notice” I’m carrying until it’s much too late for them.

tommyboy on December 29, 2013 at 3:12 PM

Yes, there are anti-discrimination LAWS regarding private businesses. However, those laws are unconstitutional. Oh, I know the Supreme Court has said they’re Constitutional, but the Supreme Court also says its a Constitutionally-protected right to murder a baby and that Obamacare is a tax. So we know what their opinion of the Constitution is worth.

Private property rights are the foundation of a free society, and they trump virtually everything else.

Shump on December 29, 2013 at 3:06 PM

And I’d be right there with you in that regard.

Unfortunately, not following the Constitution for decades has brought us the crime-ridden society we have now. I personally have no problem with discrimination. It’s a normal human trait that, like ‘haaaaaaate’, cannot be legislated or ridiculed away.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:12 PM

Can I allow slavery on my property?

It is my property…carry on.

trs on December 29, 2013 at 3:13 PM

The thing about concealed carry…it’s concealed, nobody knows.

Carry on!

trs on December 29, 2013 at 3:12 PM

So it’s like heroin use or child abuse…if no one knows it’s all good, right? Or cheating on your taxes? The law, only means something if people find out you’re breaking it?

Prcactically, yes there are too many laws…but PHILOSOPHICALLY, yo seem to b saying, “it’s OK as long as you don’t get caught.”

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:14 PM

Zank hasn’t gone with the “public house” argument…he’s gone with the 2A applies to him, unconditionally…read his posting.

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:10 PM

I’m not arguing for Zank. I’m arguing my case.

Let’s look at it this way: Pizza Hut has a no carry policy for their drivers. You tell me how they can get away with that when the car in question is the private property of the driver?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:14 PM

Can I allow slavery on my property?

It is my property…carry on.

trs on December 29, 2013 at 3:13 PM

Because Slavery is UNCONSTITUTIONAL…..

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:15 PM

but PHILOSOPHICALLY, yo seem to b saying, “it’s OK as long as you don’t get caught.”

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:14 PM

If a law is unjust, break it.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:15 PM

Can I allow slavery on my property?

It is my property…carry on.

trs on December 29, 2013 at 3:13 PM

Last I heard, slavery is illegal. Wow. You probably cannot manufacture meth on private property either. Can you guess why?

ndanielson on December 29, 2013 at 3:16 PM

I submit it was written (The 2nd amendment)to allow me to protect myself with a firearm no matter where I might be in these United States Of America.

Tim Zank on December 29, 2013 at 3:17 PM

And if you get terminated for violating company policy? Any complaining?

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:03 PM

They’ll never know.

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:17 PM

Can I allow slavery on my property?

It is my property…carry on.

trs on December 29, 2013 at 3:13 PM

I do. I just call them “children.”

CurtZHP on December 29, 2013 at 3:18 PM

Let’s look at it this way: Pizza Hut has a no carry policy for their drivers. You tell me how they can get away with that when the car in question is the private property of the driver?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:14 PM

In the same way they can say “no Drug Use” by our employees, it’s a Condition of Employment….you don’t HAVE to deliver pizza’s for Pizza Hut, BUT if you do so, you have to be unarmed….Just like even in Colorado, Pizza Hut could have a rule, “No Dope-Smoking” for it’s drivers…failure to pass the pee-in-the-bottle test is grounds for termination, even though marijuana is not verboten, or not too verboten in Colorado.

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:19 PM

Or see it in her car or read about it on her Facebook and ask her, or a number of other ways….

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:09 PM

I don’t EVER link to my workplace…

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:20 PM

Or see it in her car or read about it on her Facebook and ask her, or a number of other ways….

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:09 PM

I don’t EVER link to my workplace…

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:20 PM

Not to mention I don’t display in my car…

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:21 PM

I do. I just call them “children.”

CurtZHP on December 29, 2013 at 3:18 PM

Shhhhh! You want some liberal buttplug demanding a living wage for chirrun working in the home???

It’s coming. Just as surely as ‘pedophilia is a sexual orientation’ is.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:21 PM

I submit it was written (The 2nd amendment)to allow me to protect myself with a firearm no matter where I might be in these United States Of America.

Tim Zank on December 29, 2013 at 3:17 PM

I submit Gray Aliens rule the Earth…neither of our submissions is correct.

I’d love to see you explain your submission to Washington, Hamilton or Jefferson, BTW. Especially, the prison rule you have….

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:22 PM

Ladyingray, you’re just saying, “It’s all good as long as I don’t get caught.” OK…I just asked if you do get caught?

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:22 PM

That’s a fair point. A restaurant could say that they’re not infringing on your right to keep and bear arms, rather they’re just stopping you from walking onto their grounds because you are exercising that right.

But there is a possible slippery slope with such an interpretation though. The government could just as easily ban people from entering public parks with guns and claim that they’re not stopping you from keeping and bearing arms, they’re just denying you access to a particular space because you’re exercising that right. While recent case law has essentially refuted this, and I think such a refutation is wholly appropriate since rights do limit one another (e.g., my right to have a gun doesn’t mean I can use it however I please and shoot someone else), I’m skeptical that the letter of the law really supports this, since “infringement” is never defined, nor the parties potentially guilty of it named.

At issue is what constitutes a right. If someone can set policies, punishments, or cordon off areas based on the exercise of a given right, be that the public or private sectors, then those rights can quickly become grossly limited, if not rendered devoid of meaning (e.g., Murphy9′s example of it being illegal to drink and possess a firearm in Virginia prompts questions as to what other measures to curtail gun-wielding is possible).

Yet if we allow rights to be considered absolute, where no policy or practice can be set in response to the exercise of those rights, then we risk the emergence of cases in which competing rights (such as private property vs. bearing arms) create contradictions.

Stoic Patriot on December 29, 2013 at 3:07 PM

You make some decent arguments, there, but I still have some disagreements.

First, as you discuss in the last paragraph, there simply can be virtually no right that is absolute. Even I, who take the Constitution just about as literally as one can, have to acknowledge that. Does my right to not have my freedom of speech infringed mean that I can walk right up to the President and tell him what I think of him? Does the right to keep and bear arms mean that at a mobster’s trial, all his cronies can show up in the courtroom brandishing AK-47′s? I think most people would agree that there are some situations where rights have limits.

Second, though, we have to make a distinction between action by the government and action by a private individual or company. In your example of the public park, it is the government that is infringing on the person’s right, and also it is presumably taxpayer-funded public land as well. Governmental infringement is specifically what the Bill of Rights was designed to protect against. It was not designed to say who a restaurant owner has to serve.

Put it another way. This really isn’t a question about whether one has a right to carry a gun in a restaurant. It’s actually a question about whether one has a protected right to go to any restaurant they choose and be served. I’m sure many here would maintain they do, on the basis of laws that we have against discrimination. I would maintain that you don’t, because the restaurant owner’s private property rights trumps just about everything else. If I, as a restaurant owner, want to kick you out because you have blonde hair and I prefer brunettes, that would be utterly stupid, but I can’t find anything in the Constitution that says I shouldn’t be able to do it.

Shump on December 29, 2013 at 3:23 PM

John_G on December 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Just try to get caught in a Texas bar with a weapon even with a CCW permit. You’re going under the jail.

Kermit on December 29, 2013 at 3:23 PM

I carry on private property every day. Carried in retail as well.

wolly4321 on December 29, 2013 at 3:23 PM

And I was kidding about the Shemp thing, Shump. I know you ain’t a libtard.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:25 PM

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:22 PM

Speaking for myself, if I get “caught” it’s because someone threatened my life and they are laying there dead.

wolly4321 on December 29, 2013 at 3:27 PM

Ladyingray, you’re just saying, “It’s all good as long as I don’t get caught.” OK…I just asked if you do get caught?

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:22 PM

It’s ladyingray, no caps. And my state says my employer doesn’t have the right to ban me from carrying in my car, if I have a concealed permit, because MY AUTO is MY private property. And I have said permit.

So back off.

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:27 PM

I’ve heard it is to protect the cook……

viking01 on December 29, 2013 at 3:28 PM

Speaking for myself, if I get “caught” it’s because someone threatened my life and they are laying there dead.

wolly4321 on December 29, 2013 at 3:27 PM

DUH!

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:28 PM

Well, it is somewhat interesting that Keith doesn’t own the restaurant. However, the true proprietorship engaging in typical corporate lowest common denominator policy setting is completely in step with Toby Keith’s non-stop excretion of lowest common denominator ‘music’.

M240H on December 29, 2013 at 3:28 PM

Just try to get caught in a Texas bar with a weapon even with a CCW permit. You’re going under the jail.

Kermit on December 29, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Hold it. I watched an episode of Family Guy where Peter went into a liquor store and bought a bottle of whiskey. The shopkeep handed him a gun and stated “Free gun with every bottle of alcohol. Texas State law.”

Was I lied to?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:29 PM

I bet that the bar owner would be greatful if an armed gunman came in to rob the establishment and one of their rebel patrons who decided to ignore the little signstepped up to the plate.
Also never sit with our back to the door in a public place.

Rio Linda Refugee on December 29, 2013 at 3:31 PM

Q. Do private property owners have the right to exclude license holders from their property?

A. Yes. Private property owners may give notice excluding license holders from carrying concealed handguns. Official Notice must comply with state mandates as described below.
If a CHL Holder carries a concealed handgun on posted property, they can be charged with criminal trespass by a license holder. The charge is a Class A misdemeanor, and if you are convicted, your license will be revoked.

http://www.texaschl.us/faq.htm#exclude

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 3:33 PM

Also never sit with our back to the door in a public place.
Rio Linda Refugee on December 29, 2013 at 3:31 PM

Especially if you’re holding eights and aces.

tommyboy on December 29, 2013 at 3:34 PM

If I am a business owner or manager and do not want guns in my business, what type of sign should I post?
If you want to prohibit license holders from carrying concealed handguns on your property, state law requires you provide notice to potential trespassers, either orally or by posting a sign that says:
”Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun.”
The sign must be written in both English and Spanish in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height, and must be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public. Visit the DPS website at http://www.txdps.state.tx.us for the specific language and specifications for the sign.

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 3:34 PM

http://www.texaschl.us/faq.htm#exclude

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 3:33 PM

I don’t live in Texas.

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:35 PM

I don’t live in Texas.

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:35 PM

I was responding to Kermit. Thank you for your participation.

I don’t live in TX either! :)

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 3:35 PM

even with a CCW permit. You’re going under the jail. Kermit on December 29, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Get caught without a firearm when you really need one,, you’re going under 6′ of dirt.

wolly4321 on December 29, 2013 at 3:36 PM

The charge is a Class A misdemeanor, and if you are convicted, your license will be revoked.

http://www.texaschl.us/faq.htm#exclude

Murphy9 on December 29, 2013 at 3:33 PM

Oh good. Nice to see Texas ain’t immune to poorly thought out laws.

Here in Florida, a misdemeanor does not preclude one from obtaining a CCW. Or a gun.

Can one re-apply for a license after it’s been revoked on a misdemeanor?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:36 PM

Speaking for myself, if I get “caught” it’s because someone threatened my life and they are laying there dead.

wolly4321 on December 29, 2013 at 3:27 PM

Most likely…it’s the risk/benefit analysis you conduct….

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:36 PM

even with a CCW permit. You’re going under the jail. Kermit on December 29, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Not in my state.

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:37 PM

Oh good. Nice to see Texas ain’t immune to poorly thought out laws.

Here in Florida, a misdemeanor does not preclude one from obtaining a CCW. Or a gun.

Can one re-apply for a license after it’s been revoked on a misdemeanor?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:36 PM

So glad I don’t live in “free” Texas…

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:38 PM

Oh good. Nice to see Texas ain’t immune to poorly thought out laws.

It’s a GREAT law…it reinforces the PRIVATE PROPERTY HOLDER’S RIGHTS…it doesn’t make it felony, it just means you lose your CCW.

It says, “Please play well with others. If you don’t you can’t CCW.”

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:39 PM

my state says my employer doesn’t have the right to ban me from carrying in my car, if I have a concealed permit, because MY AUTO is MY private property. And I have said permit. So back off. ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:27 PM

Same here. Castle doctrine and no duty to retreat apply t my wheels.

But in real life they apply everywhere.

wolly4321 on December 29, 2013 at 3:39 PM

I remember the news story from the late 1990s about a restaurant near the interstate in Ft. Payne, Alabama.

Five armed robbers stormed into the restaurant and herded the owners and all the employees into the kitchen giving the impression they weren’t just there to rob the place.

Well… they headed back out to the register and a customer friend of the owner’s family was armed and ready. He dropped four of the five permanently in their tracks and put the sole perp survivor in the hospital for a very, very long time.

viking01 on December 29, 2013 at 3:40 PM

So glad I don’t live in “free” Texas…

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:38 PM

I’m intrigued by this absolute determination to be armed…that what I think of your decision, on my land is of no interest to you and that your determination overides my concerns…but that to you this is “freedom.”

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:41 PM

It’s a GREAT law…it reinforces the PRIVATE PROPERTY HOLDER’S RIGHTS

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:39 PM

IT IS NO LONGER PRIVATE WHEN YOU OPEN IT TO THE PUBLIC.

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:41 PM

I’m intrigued by this absolute determination to be armed…that what I think of your decision, on my land is of no interest to you and that your determination overides my concerns…but that to you this is “freedom.”

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:41 PM

Your “concerns” don’t override my constitutional rights…just sayin’…

ladyingray on December 29, 2013 at 3:42 PM

Actually, the 2nd amendment says you can take a firearm anywhere you damn well please, it’s just that now nobody pays any attention to what that document says.

Tim Zank on December 29, 2013 at 2:50 PM

Bullshit.

The 2nd amendment is a prohibition on government, not the individual. Private property rights are equally important and when it comes down to a battle between the two, private property rights win.

Wendya on December 29, 2013 at 3:44 PM

Bullshit.

The 2nd amendment is a prohibition on government, not the individual. Private property rights are equally important and when it comes down to a battle between the two, private property rights win.

Wendya on December 29, 2013 at 3:44 PM

So the next time the fuzz wants to get into my house or car, I can tell them to take their guns off, huh?

Lanceman on December 29, 2013 at 3:46 PM

The Toby Kieth restaurant at the Windstar Casino in Oklahoma doesn’t have a no guns allowed sign. But, I am unaware of any casinos that allow guns on the floor.

Linh_My on December 29, 2013 at 3:47 PM

ladyingray and lanceman, you keep saying that, but it’s not true…It’s my land and if I want you to be unarmed that’s my right…and the law backs me up, lanceman…sorry because these CCW restrictions have NOT been over-turned…

So what I keep hearing is that lady and lance are right and by golly we’re gonna be right, even if you don’t like it, even on your land….

I just see self-righteous zealots…no different from the GLAAD zealots or the anti-gun zealots. Or the ACLU zealots, truth-to-tell, and their focus on the First Amendment.

And again lady “my concerns” are MY CONSTITUTIONAL right, honey…so they DO over-ride your Constitutional Right…just like the First Amendment doesn’t apply to my living room, it being my living room…

JFKY on December 29, 2013 at 3:48 PM

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