Quotes of the day

posted at 10:31 pm on December 16, 2013 by Allahpundit

National Security Agency officials are considering a controversial amnesty that would return Edward Snowden to the United States, in exchange for the extensive document trove the whistleblower took from the agency…

The NSA official in charge of assessing the alleged damage caused by Snowden’s leaks, Richard Ledgett, told CBS News an amnesty still remains controversial within the agency, which has spent the past six months defending itself against a global outcry and legislative and executive proposals to restrain its broad surveillance activities.

“My personal view is, yes, it’s worth having a conversation about,” Ledgett, who is under consideration to become the agency’s top civilian, said in an interview slated to air Sunday evening on 60 Minutes. “I would need assurances that the remainder of the data could be secured, and my bar for those assurances would be very high. It would be more than just an assertion on his part.”

***

The White House echoed a long-held position Monday: There will be no amnesty for Edward Snowden.

“Mr. Snowden is accused of leaking classified information and faces felony charges here in the United States,” said Caitlin Hayden, spokesperson for the National Security Council. “He should be returned to the U.S. as soon as possible, where he will be accorded full due process and protections.”

***

American intelligence and law enforcement investigators have concluded that they may never know the entirety of what the former National Security Agency contractor Edward J. Snowden extracted from classified government computers before leaving the United States, according to senior government officials.

Investigators remain in the dark about the extent of the data breach partly because the N.S.A. facility in Hawaii where Mr. Snowden worked — unlike other N.S.A. facilities — was not equipped with up-to-date software that allows the spy agency to monitor which corners of its vast computer landscape its employees are navigating at any given time…

“They’ve spent hundreds and hundreds of man-hours trying to reconstruct everything he has gotten, and they still don’t know all of what he took,” a senior administration official said. “I know that seems crazy, but everything with this is crazy.”

***

Amnesty? Have they lost their minds? Snowden is a traitor to his country, who is responsible for the most damaging theft and release of classified information in American history. His actions have exposed not only the NSA terrorist surveillance programs, but our intelligence collection efforts against foreign governments, including Russia and China. He has aided our enemies, shared intelligence with potential adversaries, and has damaged our ability to defend against future terrorist attacks. Maybe we offer him life in prison instead of a firing squad, but amnesty? That would be insanity…

If Edward Snowden can get amnesty after what he has done, then who could ever be prosecuted for any intelligence leak? How could we possibly pursue charges against leakers for individual disclosures, however damaging, when someone like Snowden is allowed to get away with the largest disclosure of critical intelligence in our history?

If anything, amnesty would encourage leakers to share more information. The lesson will be: if you leak, leak big and you can get away with it. The more damaging the disclosure the better your chances to get off scott free.

***

“That kid was a genius among geniuses,” says the NSA staffer. “NSA is full of smart people, but anybody who sat in a meeting with Ed will tell you he was in a class of his own…I’ve never seen anything like it.”…

Snowden had been brought to Hawaii as a cybersecurity expert working for Dell’s services division but due to a problem with the contract was reassigned to become an administrator for the Microsoft intranet management system known as Sharepoint. Impressed with his technical abilities, Snowden’s managers decided that he was the most qualified candidate to build a new web front-end for one of its projects, despite his contractor status. As his coworker tells it, he was given full administrator privileges, with virtually unlimited access to NSA data. “Big mistake in hindsight,” says Snowden’s former colleague. “But if you had a guy who could do things nobody else could, and the only problem was that his badge was green instead of blue, what would you do?”…

Snowden’s superiors were so impressed with his skills that he was at one point offered a position on the elite team of NSA hackers known as Tailored Access Operations. He unexpectedly turned it down and instead joined Booz Allen to work at NSA’s Threat Operation Center…

Snowden’s former colleague says that he or she has slowly come to understand Snowden’s decision to leak the NSA’s files. “I was shocked and betrayed when I first learned the news, but as more time passes I’m inclined to believe he really is trying to do the right thing and it’s not out of character for him. I don’t agree with his methods, but I understand why he did it,” he or she says. “I won’t call him a hero, but he’s sure as hell no traitor.”

***

Edward Snowden, the former security contractor who leaked a trove of National Security Agency documents, welcomed a court ruling on Monday that declared the bulk collection of Americans’ telephone records to be a likely violation of the US constitution.

Snowden said the ruling, by a US district judge, justified his disclosures. “I acted on my belief that the NSA’s mass surveillance programs would not withstand a constitutional challenge, and that the American public deserved a chance to see these issues determined by open courts,” he said in comments released through Glenn Greenwald, the former Guardian journalist who received the documents from Snowden.

“Today, a secret program authorised by a secret court was, when exposed to the light of day, found to violate Americans’ rights. It is the first of many,” said Snowden, whose statement was first reported by the New York Times.

***

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Lightnin’ Hopkins – Santa

kcewa on December 17, 2013 at 1:20 AM

Discovered Lightnin’ the weekend I learned to shoot coke…

That was a few lifetimes ago…

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

Classic Bishop right there…lol!

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

What’s the point in giving him amnesty? Hasn’t he likely already given everything to the Russians and Chinese? Are they just afraid more will become public?

bluegill on December 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

Account suspended?

lol

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:27 AM

Perseveration….

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 1:36 AM

Norelco Santa

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:39 AM

Discovered Lightnin’ the weekend I learned to shoot coke…

That was a few lifetimes ago…

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

….somehow a fitting juxtaposition of events….temporally

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 1:40 AM

….somehow a fitting juxtaposition of events….temporally

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 1:40 AM

You a nuke-E? My bro is a nuke-E.

[Full Album] Minutemen – Double Nickels on The Dime

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:46 AM

My Link DID Sucketh……THIS is what I Meant!!

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 1:46 AM

You a nuke-E? My bro is a nuke-E.

[Full Album] Minutemen – Double Nickels on The Dime

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:46 AM

Who is you “bro”?…….or is that inappropriate

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 1:51 AM

My brother. Not about to give up any info that would attenuate his or my anonymity. Sorry shouldn’t have even asked :s

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:53 AM

Discovered Lightnin’ the weekend I learned to shoot coke…

That was a few lifetimes ago…

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

….somehow a fitting juxtaposition of events….temporally

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 1:40 AM

Miles Davis & Charlie Parker – A Night In Tunisia

kcewa on December 17, 2013 at 2:02 AM

You a nuke-E? My bro is a nuke-E.

[Full Album] Minutemen – Double Nickels on The Dime

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:46 AM

My brother. Not about to give up any info that would attenuate his or my anonymity. Sorry shouldn’t have even asked :s

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:53 AM

…..well – hey, wouldn’t ask you to do that…….but you’re the one flashing the goods there……..

…..If you don’t wan’t people askin’ for what’s in the cupboard…don’t put it on the counter-top!

…..you DO realize that people with degrees in “Nuc. E” is a relatively small population – don’t you?

…..I probably know him…..if he’s still alive…..you could tantalize with a harmless hint like: where he graduated from or the year………

….no “attenuation” or “vitiation” or “constriction” of his anonymity or yours would proceed from that..

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 2:26 AM

Miles Davis & Charlie Parker – A Night In Tunisia

kcewa on December 17, 2013 at 2:02 AM

…..just CLASSIC!…..I was lucky enough to see Dizzy do this before he passed…..

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 2:27 AM

Discovered Lightnin’ the weekend I learned to shoot coke…

That was a few lifetimes ago…

Murphy9 on December 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

….somehow a fitting juxtaposition of events….temporally

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 1:40 AM

Miles Davis & Charlie Parker – A Night In Tunisia

kcewa on December 17, 2013 at 2:02 AM

….so, is that – like – allegorical?

….is one of us Bird and the other one Miles?

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 2:30 AM

What’s the point in giving him amnesty? Hasn’t he likely already given everything to the Russians and Chinese? Are they just afraid more will become public?

bluegill on December 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

They are scared sh!tless.

The NSA sucks, Snowden’s a self-righteous anarchist…

Queen – “The Loser in the End”

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 2:37 AM

What’s the point in giving him amnesty? Hasn’t he likely already given everything to the Russians and Chinese? Are they just afraid more will become public?

bluegill on December 17, 2013 at 1:25 AM

Honestly, I don’t think Snowden absconded because he wanted to dump it all on the Russians or the Chi-comms. If he had, we’d know about it by now. I really do think his motives were pure, at least in his own mind, and I do have reason to believe that it was not his intention to give aid and comfort to an enemy.

That being said, I’m sure the Russians have already massaged him for information. They wouldn’t have given him asylum if they didn’t think it was worth the effort to do so. That doesn’t necessarily mean they were successful, though it does mean that Snowden is worth more to them while he is still of sound mind and body. So in a word, no, I don’t believe he was tortured in any way.

I’m sure that they’re dangling amnesty in front of Snowden’s nose because they fear the possibility of being domestically embarrassed as much or more than the thought of security implications. If that is the case, it puts the whole Snowden-as-traitor problem in a whole new light.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 2:51 AM

Snowden’s a self-righteous anarchist…

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 2:37 AM

If Snowden were an anarchist, how come the media hasn’t reported his dumping of the information he has all over the innerwebz? Something doesn’t quite pass the smell test here. Besides which, I’ve never been one to accept media narratives unquestioningly even when they turn out to be true.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 2:53 AM

My Link DID Sucketh……THIS is what I Meant!!

williamg on December 17, 2013 at 1:46 AM

Embrace the suck, Willie! LOLOLOL

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 2:54 AM

If Snowden were an anarchist, how come the media hasn’t reported his dumping of the information he has all over the innerwebz?

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 2:53 AM

His allies are people like Julian Assange, Bradley Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, and Glenn Greenwald…do you think he acts like he’s a US citizen, bound to its laws? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:04 AM

His allies are people like Julian Assange, Bradley Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, and Glenn Greenwald…do you think he acts like he’s a US citizen, bound to its laws? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:04 AM

The NSA certainly doesn’t act like it’s bound by the Constitution.

David Blue on December 17, 2013 at 3:09 AM

Dead Kennedys – “Anarchy for Sale”

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:10 AM

The NSA certainly doesn’t act like it’s bound by the Constitution.

David Blue on December 17, 2013 at 3:09 AM

Yes, that’s right. But it doesn’t change the fact that Snowden’s an anarchist, does it?

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:11 AM

His allies are people like Julian Assange, Bradley Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, and Glenn Greenwald…do you think he acts like he’s a US citizen, bound to its laws? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:04 AM

Snowden was also a Barky-supporter, which makes him a brain-dead, douchebag traitor.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 17, 2013 at 3:12 AM

His allies are people like Julian Assange, Bradley Chelsea Elizabeth Manning, and Glenn Greenwald…do you think he acts like he’s a US citizen, bound to its laws? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:04 AM

To assert that, you would have to know his intentions. And he wouldn’t be the first America to flaunt what he thought was an unjust law. How about the Boston Tea Party? Or the non-violent civilly disobedient civil rights movement? Didn’t they break the law as well?

I really do think there’s something else going on here, something different below the surface narrative. It’s not just happenstance that they are offering him immunity/amnesty to get him back. It seems to always come back to the same question of, why?

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 4:00 AM

Yes, that’s right. But it doesn’t change the fact that Snowden’s an anarchist, does it?

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:11 AM

So not following orders makes you an anarchist? Got it. And we hung all those poor souls at Nuremberg.

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 4:11 AM

Snowden was also a Barky-supporter, which makes him a brain-dead, douchebag traitor.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 17, 2013 at 3:12 AM

I know that he gave the Chinese classified information because of his American patriotism!

ROFL

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 4:33 AM

To assert that, you would have to know his intentions.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 4:00 AM

I know that he doesn’t really care about the American rule of law when he illegally gives other countries classified information, and then refuses to face the US’ legal system after doing so – that makes him an anarchist.

I’ll leave it to you to tell me what I can and can’t assert while I ignore whatever limitations you may try to lay on me. :)

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 4:38 AM

So not following orders makes you an anarchist?

Who said that? Not me! :)

Got it. And we hung all those poor souls at Nuremberg.

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 4:11 AM

All you have is your own confirmation bias – can you give me a reason why I should bother trying to deprive you of it? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 4:45 AM

I know that he doesn’t really care about the American rule of law when he illegally gives other countries classified information, and then refuses to face the US’ legal system after doing so – that makes him an anarchist.

I’ll leave it to you to tell me what I can and can’t assert while I ignore whatever limitations you may try to lay on me. :)

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 4:38 AM

That’s just it: You don’t know what he’s given other countries. You don’t know any more than the NSA does. Why would the NSA even be entertaining the idea of granting him amnesty if he had dumped all the stuff he had at Russia’s or China’s doorstep? That’s all I’m saying here. It doesn’t add up to me on account of it feels like we’re getting played by the media on this.

Amnesty = no espionage charges. Espionage is a lot easier to prosecute than treason, but it still requires a provable overt act.

I haven’t said much about this until now because there’s not a lot that I’m certain about when it comes to Snowden. But make no mistake, it is on the basis of the NSA’s actions that I am beginning to think he is more than just another Assange-esque anarchist punk. If he had dumped a bunch of information on Russia and/or China, you’d better believe that every resource the NSA could bring to bear would be used in the service of hunting Snowden down like a dog.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 4:56 AM

That’s just it: You don’t know what he’s given other countries. You don’t know any more than the NSA does. Why would the NSA even be entertaining the idea of granting him amnesty if he had dumped all the stuff he had at Russia’s or China’s doorstep? That’s all I’m saying here. It doesn’t add up to me on account of it feels like we’re getting played by the media on this.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 4:56 AM

You or I don’t know all of what the NSA knows at this point, but it did come out publicly that he shared some of our Chinese targets with the ChiComs.

He’s chosen to answer to himself ultimately, rejecting our government…he’s broken US’ laws & placed himself outside of US laws/jurisdiction while still claiming to have the rights of a US citizen, and that makes him an anarchist, because that’s not how citizenship works. This isn’t debatable…

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 5:08 AM

Why would the NSA even be entertaining the idea of granting him amnesty if he had dumped all the stuff he had at Russia’s or China’s doorstep?

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 4:56 AM

Because they’re the same idiots who hired this douchebag in the first place. The idea that they will offer amnesty if he “returns” the files is beyond a joke. It’s not as if there are negatives that can be destroyed. No one can ever know how many copies of his files are around, where they are, or who has the crypto-keys to them. On top of that, as you said, no one can know what he’s already divulged to Russia and/or China (though it’s probably not nearly as harmful as the top secret info that Barky has divulged – our info and our allies’ info … because Barky is just that giving …).

As you rightly suspect, this amnesty joke is just that – a joke. It’s a sick joke that no one with a brain would ever even consider – either to offer or to accept. I have a feeling that the offer was just put out there as another brilliant brainstorm by some Barky junta soldier, just to keep attention away from other things. On its face, though, it’s laughable. “If he proves that he returns all the info he stole” … which is in little electronic bits, copied and saved wherever … in pictures all over, it could be. I mean … I’m laughing just typing this out, it’s so stupid.

But, Snowden is still a douchebag traitor, just like the douchebag, America-hating retard traitor from Indonesia that he supported. They should share a cell … while waiting for their real and well-earned sentences to be carried out.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 17, 2013 at 5:13 AM

Good Morning HA

its beginning to look alot like Christmas :)

cmsinaz on December 17, 2013 at 5:35 AM

All you have is your own confirmation bias – can you give me a reason why I should bother trying to deprive you of it? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 4:45 AM

LOL. You can’t. so don’t try. Anarchists don’t subvert illegal governments. That is what Snowden was trying to do. You have a very broad definition of anarchist.

Odd that a fed judge finds the NSA to be unconstitutional. But you go ahead and keep on buying the media line.

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 5:37 AM

I know that he gave the Chinese classified information because of his American patriotism!

ROFL

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 4:33 AM

What was that about confirmation bias?

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 5:39 AM

Because they’re the same idiots who hired this douchebag in the first place. The idea that they will offer amnesty if he “returns” the files is beyond a joke. It’s not as if there are negatives that can be destroyed. No one can ever know how many copies of his files are around, where they are, or who has the crypto-keys to them. On top of that, as you said, no one can know what he’s already divulged to Russia and/or China (though it’s probably not nearly as harmful as the top secret info that Barky has divulged – our info and our allies’ info … because Barky is just that giving …).

This was almost my exact same kneejerk reaction. Which is why, I suppose, I mistrusted it. I’m not ready to hail Snowden as a hero by any stretch. But I’m not ready to write him off as a traitor. That means something very specific as the only crime defined in the constitution.

As you rightly suspect, this amnesty joke is just that – a joke. It’s a sick joke that no one with a brain would ever even consider – either to offer or to accept. I have a feeling that the offer was just put out there as another brilliant brainstorm by some Barky junta soldier, just to keep attention away from other things. On its face, though, it’s laughable. “If he proves that he returns all the info he stole” … which is in little electronic bits, copied and saved wherever … in pictures all over, it could be. I mean … I’m laughing just typing this out, it’s so stupid.

Except that I don’t think it’s a joke. I think it’s deadly serious. And it just beggars belief that they would extend amnesty to someone whom they believe is a traitor. What if the NSA does in fact know what Snowden has? What if the NSA does in fact have reason to believe that Snowden has the only unsecure copies of that information? To say that Snowden has dumped the information for whatever reason is just as speculative as anything I might come up with. It’s entirely possible that none of the information Snowden took may have anything to do with national security given the scope and breadth of NSA snooping.

But, Snowden is still a douchebag traitor, just like the douchebag, America-hating retard traitor from Indonesia that he supported. They should share a cell … while waiting for their real and well-earned sentences to be carried out.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 17, 2013 at 5:13 AM

Well let’s start with the assumption that Snowden is guilty of treason. That’s certainly reasonable enough to entertain. Treason is defined as “giving aid and comfort to an enemy,” and requires “two witnesses to the same overt act” for a conviction.

Is Russia our enemy? Is China our enemy? Leave your personal feelings aside for a moment and consider the diplomatic ramifications in the insinuation that they are.

Secondly, what single, overt act could they find two witnesses to? Considering that Snowden absconded with the information stealthily, even if you could make a case for aid and comfort to an enemy, which I don’t believe you can, conviction would be well-nigh impossible.

It’s mainly a hunch, but I really do believe that if Snowden did dump all the information he has, it would not be a threat to national security. I’m the sort of guy to whom everything has to at least make sense, and that’s the only way the amnesty offer makes sense to me. The NSA would rather see him get away scot-free than be embarrassed by the revelation of just how much of their snooping was done for rank partisan political purposes.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 5:40 AM

The NSA would rather see him get away scot-free than be embarrassed by the revelation of just how much of their snooping was done for rank partisan political purposes.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 5:40 AM

this

cmsinaz on December 17, 2013 at 6:33 AM

cmsinaz on December 17, 2013 at 6:33 AM

There’s also the question of how much he has on NSA’s headshed.For instance, proof that the supposedly “unauthorized” snooping was ordered by higher echelons.

There could be civil actions involved there, and the last time I looked at USC, the civil lawsuit protection for government employees does not extend to actions taken in violation of Federal law.

I’m wondering if this amnesty offer might not be the result of behind the scenes negotiations. A quid pro quo in exchange for Snowden not releasing such information.

Also consider that the existence of such data in third party hands could be Snowden’s insurance against an “accident”. I.e., if he dies anytime before the end of his natural allotted span, the data is emailed to every news agency and every organization NSA acted against- and to all the law firms they have on retainer, as well.

My guess is some power players in Washington would be very solicitous of his continued good health.

And others would be hiring hit men. For more people than just Snowden.

(Yes, as it stands now, conditions in DC do have the potential to degenerate into the Philippines, circa 1974.)

clear ether

eon

eon on December 17, 2013 at 6:54 AM

There’s also the question of how much he has on NSA’s headshed.For instance, proof that the supposedly “unauthorized” snooping was ordered by higher echelons.

There could be civil actions involved there, and the last time I looked at USC, the civil lawsuit protection for government employees does not extend to actions taken in violation of Federal law.

I’m wondering if this amnesty offer might not be the result of behind the scenes negotiations. A quid pro quo in exchange for Snowden not releasing such information.

Also consider that the existence of such data in third party hands could be Snowden’s insurance against an “accident”. I.e., if he dies anytime before the end of his natural allotted span, the data is emailed to every news agency and every organization NSA acted against- and to all the law firms they have on retainer, as well.

My guess is some power players in Washington would be very solicitous of his continued good health.

And others would be hiring hit men. For more people than just Snowden.

(Yes, as it stands now, conditions in DC do have the potential to degenerate into the Philippines, circa 1974.)

clear ether

eon

eon on December 17, 2013 at 6:54 AM

Given the fact that Snowden is still alive, if your speculation rings true, either he is worth more alive than dead, or the speculation of a hit being taken out on him is just that — speculation. Anyhow, you can’t execute a traitor without due process as specifically outlined in the constitution, and I’m not aware of any cases in which an American has been executed for espionage. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on that.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 7:02 AM

Good Morning, Patriots! And, Trolls.

My take: NSA Wiretapping Ruled Unconstitutional. Congressional “Caine Mutiny” Hearing to Follow?

“Paranoia will destroy ya.”

kingsjester on December 17, 2013 at 7:03 AM

Indeed eon

Gryphon with this administration…. expect drones

cmsinaz on December 17, 2013 at 7:11 AM

Indeed eon

Gryphon with this administration…. expect drones

cmsinaz on December 17, 2013 at 7:11 AM

If someone wanted Snowden dead, he’d be dead. Make no mistake. Just because he’s in Russia doesn’t make him untouchable by a longshot.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 7:12 AM

Great take KJ

I can’t see the squishy gop bringing this guy to Congress sad to say

cmsinaz on December 17, 2013 at 7:16 AM

Good point G

cmsinaz on December 17, 2013 at 7:19 AM

cmsinaz on December 17, 2013 at 7:16 AM

Thank you, ma’am.

You are right. They would have to grow a spine, first.

kingsjester on December 17, 2013 at 7:27 AM

My take: NSA Wiretapping Ruled Unconstitutional. Congressional “Caine Mutiny” Hearing to Follow?

“Paranoia will destroy ya.”

kingsjester on December 17, 2013 at 7:03 AM

…Thank you, kj !

KOOLAID2 on December 17, 2013 at 8:04 AM

LOL. You can’t. so don’t try. Anarchists don’t subvert illegal governments. That is what Snowden was trying to do. You have a very broad definition of anarchist.

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 5:37 AM

Yes, because acting like he himself is the ultimate judge of which US laws should apply to him means that he believes he’s a subject of the US government!

Remind me how that passport deal’s been working out for him lately? :)

What does “anarchy” mean?

While the Greek words anarchos and anarchia are often taken to mean “having no government” or “being without a government,” as can be seen, the strict, original meaning of anarchism was not simply “no government.” “An-archy” means “without a ruler,” or more generally, “without authority,” and it is in this sense that anarchists have continually used the word.

What was that about confirmation bias?

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 5:39 AM

Not only do you not understand the definition of “anarchy,” you don’t understand “confirmation bias,” either, you smug moron.

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 8:18 AM

Given the fact that Snowden is still alive, if your speculation rings true, either he is worth more alive than dead, or the speculation of a hit being taken out on him is just that — speculation.

Agreed. But since NSA never was on the receiving end of a “Church Hearing”, there technically are no limits on what it can legally do. Simply because it never occurred to anybody that it might go so far outside its mision parameters that such oversight would be necessary. The world NSA and CIA were conceived in was politically very different that it is today, both in foregin and domestic terms.

Anyhow, you can’t execute a traitor without due process as specifically outlined in the constitution, and I’m not aware of any cases in which an American has been executed for espionage. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on that.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 7:02 AM

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

Julius Rosenberg (May 12, 1918 – June 19, 1953) and Ethel Greenglass Rosenberg (September 25, 1915[1] – June 19, 1953) were United States citizens convicted of conspiracy to commit espionage during a time of war, and executed. Their charges were related to the passing of information about the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union.

Seen in this light, Snowden’s seeking asylum in Russia may not have been the smartest move he’s made to date.

cheers

eon

eon on December 17, 2013 at 8:22 AM

I really do think there’s something else going on here, something different below the surface narrative. It’s not just happenstance that they are offering him immunity/amnesty to get him back. It seems to always come back to the same question of, why?

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 4:00 AM

Interesting speculations in the thread, gryphon and eon; they could well be true.

However, if I were writing a book or screenplay, this would all be an elaborate ploy by a patriotic and intelligent president and administration (which immediately makes it fiction) to plant substantial misinformation in Russia and China by a pretended “principled traitor”, whose data trove was carefully handpicked by his handlers to include some true revelations about things that are already suspected by or known to the “players” but which won’t cause any substantial damage if confirmed (substantial being a subjective criterion), plus a few nuggets of false information on some critical operation that will lead the Communists astray in some convoluted manner.

Amnesty is just a covert way to bring the spy in from the cold.

Popcorn extra.

AesopFan on December 17, 2013 at 9:31 AM

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

eon on December 17, 2013 at 8:22 AM

Duh. They were tried and convicted of espionage, weren’t they? I should have remembered that. Anyhow, executing espionageurs is quite rare.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 10:56 AM

I know that he doesn’t really care about the American rule of law when he illegally gives other countries classified information, and then refuses to face the US’ legal system after doing so – that makes him an anarchist.

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 4:38 AM

I don’t believe that you have a clear understanding of just what an anarchist is.

an·ar·chist
/ˈænərkɪst/ Show Spelled [an-er-kist] Show IPA
noun
1.
a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.
2.
a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.

3.
a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.

Demonstrate how Snowden is an anarchist.

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 11:09 AM

I don’t believe that you have a clear understanding of just what an anarchist is.

You & your obsessive nitpickery still crack me up!

ROFL

Demonstrate how Snowden is an anarchist.

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 11:09 AM

If you had the ethical integrity, I’d be expecting an apology from you after you read my post @8:18…what does it tell you that I’m not expecting to ever see one from you?

ROFL!!! :)

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 11:33 AM

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 11:33 AM

You must make a veritable fortune from the various publishers of dictionaries…since you have set yourself up as the final arbiter of the meaning of words.

Your 8:18 post simply reveals – again – that you have no understanding of the basic meaning of words; but simply define them as you need to at the moment. THAT strikes me as lacking in “ethical integrity”.

You ARE, however, correct in surmising that you should not expect an ‘apology’ from me.
ROFL!!! :)

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 11:48 AM

I don’t believe that Snowden is an anarchist. Even if he was, as things stand, Anarchy is not illegal. It got a bad rap after Sacco and Vanzetti were tried and convicted for murder, but anarchy itself is not even against the law. I fail to see how it applies to Snowden’s crime unless the wrong political philosophy is being vilified to solidify his status in some people’s mind as a villain.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 11:54 AM

Let me be real clear on this: Anarchy is a belief. In America, you can’t criminalize beliefs. Snowden is probably guilty as sin of any other number of crimes, but calling him an anarchist in an effort to inflame public opinion against him is not germane to the question of what should or will happen to him.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 12:15 PM

You must make a veritable fortune from the various publishers of dictionaries…since you have set yourself up as the final arbiter of the meaning of words.

Your 8:18 post simply reveals – again – that you have no understanding of the basic meaning of words; but simply define them as you need to at the moment. THAT strikes me as lacking in “ethical integrity”.

Yes, because breaking down the meanings of words at their roots & referencing others who do so is so self-serving of me!

ROFL

You ARE, however, correct in surmising that you should not expect an ‘apology’ from me.
ROFL!!! :)

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 11:48 AM

I get this – you’re a low-class, pedantic, obsessive, unethical person, suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect, who can’t even read nor understand what I highlighted about the definition of “anarchy” in my post @8:18…how stupid would I have to be to believe an egotistical reprobate like you would ever admit that you’re wrong?

ROFL@you!

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 12:27 PM

I don’t believe that Snowden is an anarchist.

If you want to ignore the definition of the word, and insist that blatantly flauting US’ laws/authority while still demanding the benefits/privileges of citizenship indicates Snowden’s something other than a self-righteous anarchist, feel free. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that you’re having a discussion with me about it, though! :)

Even if he was, as things stand, Anarchy is not illegal.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 11:54 AM

Umm, Snowden’s broken our laws, and refused to accept responsibility for that, hasn’t he? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 12:37 PM

*flauting flouting

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 12:47 PM

Umm, Snowden’s broken our laws, and refused to accept responsibility for that, hasn’t he? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 12:37 PM

Cite the law against anarchy.

ROFL@U!!

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 1:21 PM

I get this – you’re a low-class, pedantic, obsessive, unethical person, suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect, who can’t even read nor understand what I highlighted about the definition of “anarchy” in my post @8:18…how stupid would I have to be to believe an egotistical reprobate like you would ever admit that you’re wrong?

ROFL@you!

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 12:27 PM

In other words…you’ve gotten your panties all in a wad because someone has dared to disagree with your pedantry.

You really do beclown yourself.

ROFL@U!!

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 1:24 PM

Cite the law against anarchy.

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 1:21 PM

Why is it that Snowden doesn’t have an active US passport, hmm?

ROFL@you!

In other words…you’ve gotten your panties all in a wad because someone has dared to disagree with your pedantry.

You really do beclown yourself.

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 1:24 PM

So, I don’t honestly believe what I said about you, and I don’t believe I can easily back it up?

Why don’t you define anarchy at its root for me? I won’t respond to you again until I’ve seen you try, goal-post shifter!

ROFL@you!

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 1:50 PM

Not only do you not understand the definition of “anarchy,” you don’t understand “confirmation bias,” either, you smug moron.

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 8:18 AM

Actually It’s you who don’t. And obtuse to boot.

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Yes, because acting like he himself is the ultimate judge of which US laws should apply to him means that he believes he’s a subject of the US government!

Remind me how that passport deal’s been working out for him lately? :)

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 8:18 AM

So Thomas Jefferson was an anarchist because he wrote the declaration before being our 3rd president and establishing a navy.

You truly are a moron.

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Actually It’s you who don’t. And obtuse to boot.

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Oh, is that right?

As I said to your fellow unethical moron Solaratov,

Why don’t you define anarchy at its root for me? I won’t respond to you again until I’ve seen you try

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 1:50 PM

ROFL@you!

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Keep rolling. Wapner will be on shortly :-)

WryTrvllr on December 17, 2013 at 2:26 PM

Why is it that Snowden doesn’t have an active US passport, hmm?

ROFL@you!
Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 1:50 PM

Aah! So, people without active US passports are anarchists…according to you.

btw; Why don’t you cite a few quotes from Snowden wherein he calls for the overthrow/destruction/dissolution of the US government and its replacement with a no-government, dog-eat-dog world of savagery.
Be a good fellow and do that for us, would you?

I won’t respond to you again until I’ve seen you try

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 1:50 PM

Thank God for small favors.

ROFL@U!!

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 2:31 PM

I see that the pedantic, avoidant, and unethical morons ran away from the factual challenge – it was inevitable that they’d so!

ROFL@them & their predictability! :D

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 2:37 PM

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 2:37 PM

So…Snowden never actually called for the overthrow of the government…never actually called for anarchy…never actually presented himself as an anarchist in any way, shape or form…

…but he must be one.

Because…

passport.

ROFL!!!

PS: If one wishes to be taken seriously, then, when one threatens to not respond, one should not respond. Otherwise, the self-beclowning continues.

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 2:51 PM

I can see that an attention-starved, unethical, and moronic egomaniac not only can’t be bothered to define “anarchy” at its root because of the embarrassment such an act would bring him, he doesn’t understand the plain difference between referencing a person’s statement and responding to the person!

ROFL@him & his idiocy!

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 2:59 PM

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

eon on December 17, 2013 at 8:22 AM

Duh. They were tried and convicted of espionage, weren’t they? I should have remembered that. Anyhow, executing espionageurs is quite rare.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Depends. There’s a difference between domestic traitors like the Rosenbergs and Mrs. Rosenberg’s brother, David Greenglass, and actual foreign agents like Col. Rudolph Abel, who they reported to.

Abel wasn’t executed because foreign spies can have trade potential, sometimes approaching an original Honus Wagner baseball card. In Abel’s case, we swapped him for Francis Gary Powers, the U-2 pilot brought down over Sverdlovsk. Some people would argue that trading a highly-trained professional intel officer for a pilot was a bit of a swindle, but (a) we have a tradition of not leaving anyone behind, and (b) the entire U-2 incident was a major embarrassment for the U.S. government, so getting the “human evidence” back was something of a priority from a P.R. standpoint.

By comparison, traitors like the Rosenbergs have no value in this respect. Their employers don’t want them, because that would be admitting who they were working for. And executing them does have a certain discouraging effect on anyone who seeks to emulate them, at least if their motive is mainly just “doing it for the money”, as Len Deighton once said. (It doesn’t discourage ideologues, many of who have dreams of “Martyrdom For the Cause”, anyway.)

BTW, before the Rosenbergs, the last spies executed by the U.S. oddly enough were foreign. Eight German saboteurs came ashore from two U-Boats on the East Coast in June 1942. Two turned the rest in; those two got long jail terms.

The other six were executed;

Operation Pastorius

Moral; In wartime, the rules are different. And the consequences for losing are much more serious.

cheers

eon

eon on December 17, 2013 at 3:25 PM

And, I can see that an attention-starved, unethical, and moronic egomaniac is a quibbler…and believes that beclowning himself is somehow attractive or will garner attention.

ROFL!!

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 3:30 PM

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 2:37 PM

BTW: You’ve become…boring.

Try to up your game; or…just FOAD. :)

ROFL!!

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 3:34 PM

Umm, Snowden’s broken our laws, and refused to accept responsibility for that, hasn’t he? lol

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 12:37 PM

Yeah, but that’s not what makes him an anarchist. Anarchy is an ideology, a belief. Snowden’s crimes involve the unauthorized release of classified information. That makes Snowden…well…a guy who released classified information without authorization. If everyone who breaks the law is an anarchist in your book, then the prisons are just full of anarchists, aren’t they?

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 3:43 PM

Ahh, yes, “FOAD,” from a “Conservative” “Christian” to someone who refuses to stroke his ego…I’m sure he doesn’t care if Jesus approves of his behavior or not! In fact, he reminds us that he’s the new Jesus – for what does he need the old one? I thank him for revealing his true nature once again.

ROFL@him!!! :D

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:44 PM

Yeah, but that’s not what makes him an anarchist. Anarchy is an ideology, a belief. Snowden’s crimes involve the unauthorized release of classified information. That makes Snowden…well…a guy who released classified information without authorization. If everyone who breaks the law is an anarchist in your book, then the prisons are just full of anarchists, aren’t they?

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 3:43 PM

No, and that’s not my position…people who commit civil disobedience & face the consequences are not anarchists, for one example.

Snowden broke our laws, and declines to face prosecution for his crimes while whining from outside the US about how unfairly he’s being treated by our government – that shows him to be an anarchist.

If you think I’m wrong about him, why don’t you tell me to which governmental system he believes he’s a subject?

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:54 PM

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:44 PM

Talk about changing the subject!

ROFL@him!! :D

You reek of desperation.

Solaratov on December 17, 2013 at 4:17 PM

I see my work with the neo-Christian, attention-starved, unethical, and moronic egomaniac is done, because I’m fully feeling like this about his unending childish screams:

Iggy Pop – “I’m Bored” (1979 – OGWT)

:D

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 4:25 PM

If you think I’m wrong about him, why don’t you tell me to which governmental system he believes he’s a subject?

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 3:54 PM

I don’t know. That’s my whole point. I don’t know because he hasn’t said so. The American colonists considered themselves outside the reach of British control, and they shed blood to prove it, but that didn’t make them anarchists either. But those Brits sure thought the American rabble were traitors to the crown.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 4:42 PM

I don’t know. That’s my whole point. I don’t know because he hasn’t said so.

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 4:42 PM

I go by his behavior, not words…either way, there’s no country to which he’s beholden.

He’s offered to help Brazil protect against US’ surveillance attempts, if they’ll grant him asylum. That is not patriotic behavior! Like Manning, Greenwald, and Assange, people he’s publicly praised, he has shown that he doesn’t care about nor respect our laws.

To me, it’s a slam dunk – he sees himself more as a citizen of the world than he does of the US, and I say he should be treated as such.

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 5:00 PM

To me, it’s a slam dunk – he sees himself more as a citizen of the world than he does of the US, and I say he should be treated as such.

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 5:00 PM

It is a slam dunk — to you. But it’s just as likely, more likely in my opinion, that he sees himself as a protector of uniquely American freedoms by blowing the whistles on serial clandestine fourth amendment violations. It’s curious to me that you won’t (read: can’t) entertain that as a possibility. It’s pretty safe to say that if Snowden was any kind of leftist, America hater, or anarchist, he wouldn’t be holding his bargaining chip so close to his vest. That’s not how the Julian Assanges of the world have ever worked. He could have hurt America if he had the ability and wanted to. But he hasn’t yet. All comes back to the “why.”

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 5:34 PM

It is a slam dunk — to you. But it’s just as likely, more likely in my opinion, that he sees himself as a protector of uniquely American freedoms by blowing the whistles on serial clandestine fourth amendment violations.

I’d agree with you that he sees himself that way, but I think it’s a delusion/rationalization of his – his behavior, which has encompassed a far greater range than 4th Amendment concerns alone, says something else…

It’s curious to me that you won’t (read: can’t) entertain that as a possibility.

You’re misreading me. :)

It’s pretty safe to say that if Snowden was any kind of leftist, America hater, or anarchist, he wouldn’t be holding his bargaining chip so close to his vest. That’s not how the Julian Assanges of the world have ever worked. He could have hurt America if he had the ability and wanted to. But he hasn’t yet. All comes back to the “why.”

gryphon202 on December 17, 2013 at 5:34 PM

I think you are stuck on a limited definition of anarchy, the same way some of the others in this thread have been…I say, he’s a non-violent, self-righteous anarchist who answers to his own morality, and not to any country’s government. That this is the case is beyond all doubt to me – all the evidence points that way, which in part explains why you said to me earlier, “I don’t know. That’s my whole point. I don’t know because he hasn’t said so”…

Anti-Control on December 17, 2013 at 5:50 PM

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