Ryan and Murray announce budget deal

posted at 10:01 pm on December 10, 2013 by Mary Katharine Ham

The basics:

—Brokered by Rep. Paul Ryan and Sen. Patty Murray, it’s an attempt to get back to some kind of normal order budget process

—Two-year deal, would avert government shut-down Jan. 15 but not deal with debt limit

—Spares $63 billion in sequestration cuts scheduled for January

—Allows overall projected spending to go up from $967 billion to a little over $1 trillion

$85 billion of total savings

—$23 billion in net deficit reduction

The “sequestration relief,” which America is not clamoring for is brought to you by raising “fees,” which is pretty much just another word for taxes:

But higher fees would generate as much as $65 billion to replace the unpopular cuts in military and domestic spending mandated under the budget-trimming sequester. Those cuts are set to take effect in mid-January.

Details of the fee hikes remain under wraps, but lawmakers have considered increasing fees on airline tickets and new mortgages, raising insurance premiums for pension funds and requiring federal civilian employees to contribute more toward their retirement.

Pension trimming is spooking liberals:

A new budget deal that will be debated by the U.S. Congress in the coming days would trim some military spending as well as outlays for federal workers’ retirement programs, Senate Budget Committee chief Patty Murray said on Tuesday.

The deal would cut $12 billion from the two accounts, the Democratic senator said.

Ryan:

“This bill reduces the deficit by $23 billion, it does not raise taxes, and it cuts spending in a smarter way,” Ryan said at Tuesday night press conference. “I see this agreement as a step in the right direction.”

“I’m proud of this agreement,” Ryan added. “It reduces the deficit—without raising taxes. And it cuts spending in a smarter way. It’s a firm step in the right direction, and I ask all my colleagues in the House to support it.”

Murray:

“This agreement breaks through the recent dysfunction to prevent another government shutdown and roll back sequestration’s cuts to defense and domestic investments in a balanced way,” said Murray. “It’s a good step in the right direction that can hopefully rebuild some trust and serve as a foundation for continued bipartisan work.”

They’re both hailing it as a starting point. Conservatives are wary of fee hikes and erasing sequestration. Democrats are wary of any bill that requires anyone to pitch in more for their pensions and doesn’t include an extension of unemployment benefits (right now, this does not).

Obama:

“This agreement doesn’t include everything I’d like – and I know many Republicans feel the same way. That’s the nature of compromise,” Obama said. “But it’s a good sign that Democrats and Republicans in Congress were able to come together and break the cycle of short-sighted, crisis-driven decision-making to get this done.”

Party leaders on both sides of the Capitol, including House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) and Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) also issued statements backing the deal.

Heritage Action:

“Heritage Action cannot support a budget deal that would increase spending in the near-term for promises of woefully inadequate long-term reductions,” the organization said in a statement.

“While imperfect, the sequester has proven to be an effective tool in forcing Congress to reduce discretionary spending, and a gimmicky, spend-now-cut-later deal will take our nation in the wrong direction.”

Americans for Prosperity:

Americans for Prosperity, which supports cutting taxes and government spending, called on congressional Republicans to “stand firm” in upholding a second round of across-the-board automatic spending cuts, which are scheduled to start in January.

“Otherwise, congressional Republicans are joining liberal Democrats in breaking their word to the American people to finally begin reining in government over-spending that has left us over $17 trillion in debt,” said AFP President Tim Phillips.

I’m with those House conservatives who wonder why we’re doing away with sequestration, which while not an ideal way to make cuts, is already law, and actually cut spending in a way none of these deals ever do. We’re in the minority, but that was already on the books. It didn’t need to be negotiated.

Exit quotation: “It’s hard to see how conservatives support it,” he said. “The question is, how angry will they get?”


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I think we, as conservatives, need to sit out the next election.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 8:20 AM

Ahhhh, Bwana. Nothing like the smell of rotting carcasses the next morning is there.
I see the Hyena’s have moved in.
Tomorrow? Well I’ve had my eye on this Dog pound over in the Dakotas.

WryTrvllr on December 11, 2013 at 9:17 AM

Rovin on December 11, 2013 at 9:08 AM

You failed to answer or rebut a single point I made.

When the GOP held the WH, Senate and House – did they reduce spending? No, they increased it. Did they reduce the size or scope of gov’t? No, they increased it. Did they get rid of any stupid federal agencies, programs, or statutes? No, they added to them.

And, since then, what has the GOP actually done? Capitulate. Say they are going to capitulate (McConnell just last week stated he did not intend to repeal Obamacare – only “fix” it). Say they are going to do really, really stupid things (amnesty). And just now, “compromise” away any potential for cutting spending or fixing entitlements (see Paul Ryan’s newest crowning achievement).

You people who are party loyalists rather than conservatives need to get a grip and realize the wasted energy is yours. The GOP not only is NOT conservative in any way – it hates conservatives and loves big government.

That’s right “conservatives”, let’s all capitulate to the Democratic Party, sit out the process because our sterling conservative principles must not be compromised.

Straw man not worth responding to.

Let’s forget the fact that the 2010 SHELLACKING was the largest swing in congressional history and put conservatives solidly back into control, (with only one legislative branch), that has kept the Obama/Pelosi-socialist agenda in check.

Conservatives have been in charge of the house? Really? In what universe? In what universe is the house GOP caucus remotely conservative?

Let’s see – they are going ot pass Amnesty. McConnell recently said (and Boehner said many times in the past) that there is no real intention of repealing Obamacare, only “fixing” it.

Let’s all stay home and give up the opportunity to YES MONKEYTOE, take back the Senate and hold the House, that would put an end to any liberal progressive agenda,

I refer you to my first question – when the GOP held the House, Senate and WH for 6 years – what conservative things happened? Please enlighten me with your superior knowledge.

leaving Obama an official lame duck for the remainder of his term. Did you, Monkeytoe, even consider why Obama and the Senate (Harry Reid), nuked the Senate filibuster?

I could care less. I’m opposed to the filibuster anyway and have long argued that the GOP has used the threat of the filibuster as an out from pursuing conservative policy. that the filibuster is/was a weapon for liberalism, not conservatism. You may believe otherwise, but the facts are what they are. Name me the great conservative victory through the filibuster. Did we stop liberal judges? No. Did we stop liberal legislation? no. Did we stop more spending? no.

Because, WHEN Republicans UNITE in 2014 and take back control of the Senate, they will no longer have any more power to pack the courts—which can’t be stopped now.

You fight the fights that are within your capabilities to control/win.

What have we won? Explain the conservative wins to me. Explain to me the conservative policies that teh GOP actually strongly pursues? Yes, they oppose Obamacare now, b/c Obamacare has become politically unpopular. But they won’t repeal it. Nor will they reduce spending. Nor will they eliminate agenices, programs or statutes. What exactly, do you think you are “winning” when the GOP is in control. You are delusional at best – battered wife syndrome delusional. “This time they will do what they promise, this time”.

It’s the way the system works whether we like the outcomes or not. Sitting out, is not an option. It is, however, a lazy way of saying “I give up”. Sorry pal, but I’m not giving up and I will vote!

I hate to break it to you, but sitting out is an option. See, I can sit out if I want. Therefore, it’s an option. See, pal – it’s an option pal. Okay chief? Okay bro? Okay sport?

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Voting for the GOP when the GOP is not remotely conservative and expecting them to act conservative fits well within the definition of insanity.

You see – I’m not giving up. If you actually read what I wrote, my point is that a good shellacking because conservative stayed home would disabuse the GOP of two thoughts:

1) that conservatives will vote for the GOP no matter what (which you just admitted you will do); and

2) even if 1 isn’t true, the GOP does not need conservatives to win.

See pal, to move the GOP to the right and actually win something substantive, instead of the Pyrrhic victory of having an “r” win an election, we need to move the GOP significantly rightward.

Constantly voting for the GOP and rewarding them for anti-conservative actions does not accomplish that goal. So, in reality, you are the problem because you empower the GOP to be liberal and be for big-gov’t by voting for them despite their actions.

Sorry to break it to you ace.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 9:28 AM

Ahhhh, Bwana. Nothing like the smell of rotting carcasses the next morning is there.
I see the Hyena’s have moved in.
Tomorrow? Well I’ve had my eye on this Dog pound over in the Dakotas.

WryTrvllr on December 11, 2013 at 9:17 AM

See my response to Rovin at

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 9:28 AM

You people who support republicans no matter what they do are the biggest problem conservatism faces. You empower the GOP to continue to lie to us and do exactly the opposite of what they tell us they will do.

Your loyalty is misguided at best.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 9:31 AM

Oh, don’t worry so much Bwana, I’m sure the zoo keepers will find some other critter type to put in these habitat enclosures.

WryTrvllr on December 11, 2013 at 9:35 AM

Monkeytoe, please use some of your ire to fire off a letter or phone call to your House rep. I have the same feelings of betrayal. I intend to make the elected officials get a daily earful. Encourage others to do the same, don’t discourage the fighters.

kpguru on December 11, 2013 at 9:36 AM

Simple question to everyone is screaming DEATH TO THE GOP, who else are you going to vote for? Last time I checked the libertarian party wasn’t getting anyone elected. How exactly are you to affect change if you don’t have people who are sympathetic to your views in office?
If you want more conservative folks in primaries have at it I have to problem, but whining about budget deals when you only control one house of congress makes you sound like your age is in the single digits?!? “If I don’t get all sequester cut screw you guys I’m going home!” Really that’s your response?!?!
Politics is the real of the possible and this deal is what is possible right now. Burning down our National security apparatus to just for the sake of “cutting the budget” gives you nothing but fool’s gold. First you are going to have to spend more than you saved in order to fix the agencies that you broke (and this next round of sequester would have broken them) and you cause huge gaps in our capabilities in the process. That the problem with the sequester it cut so deep that it starts removing capabilities not just capacity from our national defense.
We need to fix our current system you need to do that by #1 getting rid of obmacare #2 fix the tax code #3 reform and privatize entitlements. However you can’t get there from here right now. This keep the GOP’s powder dry for 2014 and 2016 which will both be BAD BAD BAD for the democrats. Do not try and grab defeat from the jaws of victory. This isn’t a great deal it a necessary deal to do what we need nothing more. Screaming and crying about it doesn’t help your cause.

falcaner on December 11, 2013 at 9:57 AM

Early on, very early on I really thought Ryan might end up being one of the bright spots in the GOP. Sorry to say he has become one of the despised ones. Time to primary him and relieve him of his duties.

Bmore on December 11, 2013 at 10:14 AM

It’s the future Bwana. Embrace it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOstWE28AiE

WryTrvllr on December 11, 2013 at 10:23 AM

I hate to break it to you, but sitting out is an option. See, I can sit out if I want. Therefore, it’s an option. See, pal – it’s an option pal. Okay chief? Okay bro? Okay sport?

Every thing you expose to support becomes totally moot, when/if you exercise this option, and encourage others to follow this path. I am sorry that you think everything flows in a vacuum, as if we have the power to change overnight. We don’t. For the record, I support 99% of the values you’re claiming conservatives need/insist on. But, if Republicans follow your recommendation to “sit out”, where does that benefit conservatives or their principles? One fight at a time, starting with regaining the Senate will help to stop the bleeding, this is the reality in front of us. Ceding more power to the liberal sickness running our institutions—by sitting out—is giving up on the only tools we possess to end this rein of liberalism. I believe “your option” would only provide more power to facilitate this insanity. Can you imagine what would have happened if Eisenhower had said, “I don’t like this situation, (the terrible odds and the countless deaths he knew was forthcoming), so I’ll just “sit out” the Normandy invasion”??? Or, Kennedy saying, “oh, the Russians only have a few Nukes on board, so I’ll order my military to “sit this one out””???

My point is……you don’t sit out…..you dig in and fight the fights that are winnable, at all cost, and yes, sometimes sacrificing the principles on a temporary basis, to win one battle at a time, and by fruition win the war. I don’t see your option as anything other than capitulation to the enemy. You’ll have to explain how you think this option can/will advance conservatism in the long run, or even the short term for that matter. Dropping out of the race, in my humble opinion, is for losers “sport”.

Rovin on December 11, 2013 at 10:40 AM

This is almost entirely a win for the GOP. You got everything.

libfreeordie on December 11, 2013 at 11:16 AM

My point is……you don’t sit out…..you dig in and fight the fights that are winnable, at all cost, and yes, sometimes sacrificing the principles on a temporary basis, to win one battle at a time, and by fruition win the war. I don’t see your option as anything other than capitulation to the enemy. You’ll have to explain how you think this option can/will advance conservatism in the long run, or even the short term for that matter. Dropping out of the race, in my humble opinion, is for losers “sport”.

Rovin on December 11, 2013 at 10:40 AM

Chief,

you are the one that is hurting conservatism. Every time you vote for the GOP after they shit on you, you empower them to do the same over and over again – which they have done and will continue to do (again, increased spending by GOP? check. Increase size of gov’t by GOP? check. Stupid policies and statutes by GOP? check).

I challenged you to explain to me the conservative “victories” your blind loyalty to the GOP has produced. You haven’t done so, because you cannot. You simply point to some nominees not getting through – but that is ridiculous. Because one liberal nominee is stopped, doesn’t mean another liberal nominee – not quite as vocal – is not confirmed. These are illusory victories, with little meaning. They feel good but accomplish nothing.

Yes, if in control, the GOP will be slightly less liberal than the DNC. That is not the same thing, even remotely, as furthering any conservative goals. In fact, it is the opposite.

You say you don’t see how sitting out can help? Then you are blind. If the GOP can be shown that it cannot win if conservatives sit out, they will not take us for granted and will not always betray us. In other words, we will successfully move the GOP to the right. I’m not talking about “purity” here – I don’t expect the GOP to suddenly reflect my conservatism. I just want the GOP to actually – strongly and persistently – pursue some conservative goals.

You would have us continue the status quo, which is blind support for the GOP followed by ever increasing gov’t size and expense.

Yet you claim you are supporting conservatism through this method?

Very strange thinking on your part there sport.

I’m not dropping out of the race. You see each single election as the “most important election of all time that must be won by the GOP at all costs”. I don’t. I see this election and perhaps the next, as not having any meaning for conservatism if the GOP wins it as currently configured. In fact, I see it as a set-back for conservatism as the GOP will feel empowered to continue to increase spending, refuse to reduce the size or scope of gov’t, and likely pass amnesty – if amnesty is not already passed by then.

Sometimes, a tactical defeat can end in a bigger victory down the road.

What you are engaging in is nothing but tribalism. The GOP must win at all costs because “it’s my team”. Yet the GOP winning accomplishes nothing for conservatism.

I want to change that. You obviously do not. You think that the GOP winning is the end goal. It is not. The GOP is a means to and end. Currently, the GOP is not really even a means to an end because the GOP is not pursuing the same end conservatives are. So, in order to use the GOP to achieve a particular end, we must change the GOP.

Voting for the GOP despite its behavior will not change the GOP. As an example – if a child does something wrong – do you reward the child for that behavior? If you do, you are fool because you are guarantying that behavior will continue. Well, the same is true with the GOP. If you reward the GOP by voting for it – you are incentivizing that same behavior in the future.

Only the blind cannot see.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:17 AM

falcaner on December 11, 2013 at 9:57 AM

Go back and read my comments. You give a false choice.

Blind and consistent support for the GOP will ensure it never moves to the right.

So your strategy is actually, in practice, anti-conservative.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:18 AM

I want RWM to be the next HotAir blogger.

And I never saw the “criminalien” term before. It’s right on.

bluegill on December 10, 2013 at 10:20 PM

I AGREE! WOOT!

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 8:20 AM

Wouldn’t it be more productive to support real conservative candidates?

dogsoldier on December 11, 2013 at 11:19 AM

Monkeytoe, please use some of your ire to fire off a letter or phone call to your House rep. I have the same feelings of betrayal. I intend to make the elected officials get a daily earful. Encourage others to do the same, don’t discourage the fighters.

kpguru on December 11, 2013 at 9:36 AM

this is exactly my point. We spend all of our efforts and energy and votes electing the GOP – and then we have to spend all of our time begging them not to betray us – which we only win about 1/4 of the time.

And yet, all of you keep preaching blind loyalty?

That is disturbing.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:20 AM

An end to sequestration, new taxes (calling them fees is an insult to even a Democrat’s intelligence), and higher spending…yet, we’re to believe that somehow leaving out the debt limit matters? Might as well hike that to $20 trillion now, too, while we’re at it.

This is a joke. Of course, there is something to be said for getting the cave out of the way now, rather than later, to save us any notion that either side cares about getting our fiscal house in order. Fluke em’ all.

changer1701 on December 11, 2013 at 11:23 AM

—Allows overall projected spending to go up from $967 billion to a little over $1 trillion

—$85 billion of total savings

—$23 billion in net deficit reduction

Hmm, spending goes up, but it’s claimed that there are savings, and a deficit reduction, but no tax increase.

That means revenue is up, but the ‘fees’ indicated don’t amount to enough to make up the difference between increased spending ($33billion+) and the savings ($85billion), so…

The math doesn’t seem to work, so what’s the gimmick? The ‘savings’ are over a different time period (more years) than the other figures?

Midas on December 11, 2013 at 11:23 AM

Wouldn’t it be more productive to support real conservative candidates?

dogsoldier on December 11, 2013 at 11:19 AM

Such as?

The problem here, is that the party controls things.

In the same way that voting for a conservative democrat is counterproductive – because in reality that allegedly conservative democrat merely allows the very liberal democrats to run things and push its agenda, voting for a “conservative” GOP candidate (and they all CLAIM to be conservative at election time) is counterproductive because it allows the GOP – which is currently not at all conservative – run the show.

So, we vote for a “conservative” GOP candidate. Someone who promises to be anti-amnesty, for cutting spending, for cutting the size and scope of gov’t, etc.

And let’s assume they stick to those guns and actually vote that way (very rare). But, they help the GOP form a majority. The GOP leadership than pushes a budget that increases spending, increases the size and scope of gov’t, and pushes amnesty and instead of repeal of Obamacare – pushes a “fix” of Obamacare.

And all of those things pass with majority republican votes.

What has your vote for a “conservative” GOP candidate accomplished?

I’m seriously asking all of you to look at the GOP’s actions over the last 20 years and think rationally.

I realize that it goes against the grain to sit out and potentially allow the DNC to win. But, in reality, this is the only way we are going to change the GOP in our lifetimes. We have been trying to change the GOP through action, primaries, involvement, etc. for 30 years. And it has not happened.

Almost every “conservative” we have elected and pinned our hopes on has turned on us. The establishment and the system corrupt them (if they were honestly conservative to begin with).

The only way to win the fight is to change the party. We will not change the party through constant support of the party despite its actions. That is ridiculous thinking.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:26 AM

This is almost entirely a win for the GOP. You got everything.

libfreeordie on December 11, 2013 at 11:16 AM

To prove my point. I don’t think much more need be said.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:28 AM

The GOP must be really scared of controlling both houses of Congress, because they’re doing everything they can to make sure they won’t.

SAMinVA on December 11, 2013 at 11:30 AM

My point is……you don’t sit out…..you dig in and fight the fights that are winnable, at all cost, and yes, sometimes sacrificing the principles on a temporary basis, to win one battle at a time, and by fruition win the war. I don’t see your option as anything other than capitulation to the enemy. You’ll have to explain how you think this option can/will advance conservatism in the long run, or even the short term for that matter. Dropping out of the race, in my humble opinion, is for losers “sport”.

Rovin on December 11, 2013 at 10:40 AM

I’m not MT, but I’ll add my two cents here; if it demonstrates that the GOP *must* take the conservative base seriously, and behave more conservatively – even if it means they get walloped in an election – then it could be worth it.

Otherwise, going your route – the route we’ve been going down for decades now – just reinforces to the GOP that they *can* continue to be ‘liberal lite’, take conservatives for granted, and there is *no* reason for them to behave conservatively because they *can* continue to be squishes, giving the Dems what they want, and there will be *no* penalty for doing so.

YOU need to explain how continuing to vote for them – as we’ve done for decades – will suddenly result in something *different*, I’m afraid.

Midas on December 11, 2013 at 11:34 AM

Almost every “conservative” we have elected and pinned our hopes on has turned on us. The establishment and the system corrupt them (if they were honestly conservative to begin with).

The only way to win the fight is to change the party. We will not change the party through constant support of the party despite its actions. That is ridiculous thinking.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:26 AM

And, frankly, this is the rataional way to do it.

Think of it as “primarying” the entire party.

The reality is we have a 2 party system – that is unlikely to change. And none of the various third parties will win any time soon. So, voting for some third party is not going to do anything.

And, voting the “conservative” line won’t really do anything because 97% of the time, its just the GOP candidate.

And, in case you haven’t noticed, the party itself is fighting conservatives. the establishment (by which I mean incumbents, their staffs, the people actually working for the GOP, professional campaign people, and big money donors) is not conservative – never was and they are unlikely to ever be ideologically conservative.

They don’t want to be conservative because they like gov’t and believe in gov’t and the big-money donors make lots of money off big gov’t. So they fight against conservatives and conservative influence on the party.

The only way to get them to toe the conservative line at all is to put the fear of losing their jobs and their influence into them. The only way to do that is to show them our voting power and that we WILL IN FACT use it by NOT voting for them.

They currently believe we (conservatives) will ultimately vote for them no matter what they do. And, the reality is, they have been right about this.

In order to change the dynamic, we have to prove they are not right about this – that conservatives are willing to sit out if they cross us.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:34 AM

“...higher fees would generate as much as $65 billion to replace the unpopular cuts in military and domestic spending mandated under the budget-trimming sequester…”

Dollar-to-a-Doughnut that the cuts in military spending will stand, and the higher fees will go to jacked domestic (crony) spending.

This is, again, another bad deal that is worse than no deal at all.

Another Drew on December 11, 2013 at 11:39 AM

Lay around with pigs and all that.

These commie Democrats are all liars to the core.

Make the deal out in the open live on TV so everyone can see for themselves what they are.

Doing it in private only gets you in the pig slop with them.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on December 11, 2013 at 11:40 AM

Monkeytoe, not “sit out”, but support a challenger within the primary and defeat an incumbent there.
Let it be an “open” seat to fill in the General.

Another Drew on December 11, 2013 at 11:41 AM

Monkeytoe, please use some of your ire to fire off a letter or phone call to your House rep. I have the same feelings of betrayal. I intend to make the elected officials get a daily earful. Encourage others to do the same, don’t discourage the fighters.

kpguru on December 11, 2013 at 9:36 AM

Yeah, like they will actually listen to us if call them up on the telephone or shoot off an email. It’s a fools errand.

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 11:43 AM

Monkeytoe, not “sit out”, but support a challenger within the primary and defeat an incumbent there.
Let it be an “open” seat to fill in the General.

Another Drew on December 11, 2013 at 11:41 AM

Does it really matter re: Ryan? He just ceded his seat to a Dem in the next election. Whomever the WI Dems will nominate will win that seat, which was always Dem-leaning to begin with.

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 11:45 AM

Yes, I know, we “have a good chance to win the Senate”. So what? What, exactly, do you believe that will get us?

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 8:20 AM

Yep. They seem to think the “R” next to their name means we’ll just get behind them like these morons on the other side get behind anyone with a “D” next to theirs (uber sleaze Terry McAuliffe, anyone?). I am not doing it anymore. I have quit giving to the RNC and will only give to the individual now b/c the bottom line is, if the Rs are no different, what is gaining control going to do for us on the right?

hollygolightly on December 11, 2013 at 11:53 AM

Despite the effort to shine the turd made by Ryan, this deal, is really little more than putting a turd in a tin can and kicking it down the road a little longer.

The sequester spending caps? Gone.

Now that shouldn’t be much of a surprise – Congress has a pitiful record at holding spending, particularly since the leadership of both parties see spending as their primary tool to maintaining power. It doesn’t really matter if we drive down the road to insolvency at 150 mph as the Democrats want or down the road at 75mph as the establishment GOP want – we’re still moving down the road to fiscal insolvency. In FY2007 we had a $2.73 trillion budget total. The new ‘normal’ is $900B more…and increasing because of the non-discretionary spending..

No matter what Ryan says, this is also another tax and spend budget agreement. The federal government doesn’t have a revenue problem. It’s collecting record levels of revenues -at the price of a stagnant sputtering economy. What it has but doesn’t recognize is a spending problem – on both the discretionary budget side and the fixed / entitlement spending side. We can’t afford to pull more revenues out of the economy. There’s far too much pork, waste, inefficiencies, and bloat in our spending. Before there is a demand for more revenues, fix spending.

Finally, this ‘deal’ uses the same gimmicks as the continuing resolutions have done over the last 6 years or so – delaying / pushing off the ‘savings’ to the last three years of the decade’s projections while satisfying the spending addiction now. Never are those ‘savings’ ever realized, because they are just pushed off more into the future on the projections. Spending $63B more this year and next while waiting until years 8,9, and 10 to ‘save’ enough to ‘offset’ that spending doesn’t work in reality. At some point reality has to take over.

Unfortunately, this is the deal that the Vichy Republicans gave us. They reinforced that they prefer to ‘go along to get along’ and have no real interest in a fight or fixing the fundamentally unhealthy fiscal trajectory that this country is on. To them, they might admit that we’re going to become Greece, but what counts to them is that we’re not going to become Greece in the next 4 years…and that is as long term as they are willing to really look.

Athos on December 11, 2013 at 11:53 AM

House Speaker John Boehner went off on outside conservative groups Wednesday morning for pushing against the new budget deal.

“They’re using our members and they’re using the American people for their own goals,” he said. “This is ridiculous.”

Several key conservative groups are against the sequester relief within the new budget deal.

“Though conservatives support more spending restraint, the discretionary spending limits defined in the Budget Control Act represent a promise to the American people to marginally slow the growth of government,” reads a letter signed by the heads of Heritage Action, the Family Research Council, and the American Conservative Union. Heritage Action’s Michael Needham penned an op-ed in USA Today on Tuesday calling the deal “a step backward.”

Boehner has a tough path ahead of him as he tries to get this deal passed with Republican support. But, so far, he’s making it clear that he won’t go down easy.

The bolded portion says it all, don’t it?

How dare the American people attempt to control the doings of the government! They can’t just come in here and tell us what to do! This is the US Congress for cryin’ out loud.

BobMbx on December 11, 2013 at 11:55 AM

Conservatives get screwed again. Only the rotgut rino’s in that sewer in Washington can say spending goes up but we are saving money.

We need to get rid of all GOP leadership. If that’s not possible we need a new conservative party!!!!!!

Danielvito on December 11, 2013 at 11:56 AM

The GOP must be really scared of controlling both houses of Congress, because they’re doing everything they can to make sure they won’t.

SAMinVA on December 11, 2013 at 11:30 AM

The GOPe loves being in the minority. They can agree with the Dems on everything and anything and not get any attention.

Isn’t it obvious that the GOPe wants to throw the 2014 and 2016 elections just like they threw the 2008 and 2012 elections?

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Screw this “deal”.

This administration and the Democratic cabal do everything possible to curtail wealth-generating industry and everything possible to redistribute extant wealth. So Paulie “Path-to-Citizenship” Ryan makes the Grand Faustian Bargain and we’re supposed to swoon? There is no spending reduction, only reductions in planned spending. Where are the Keystone Pipeline and coal-fired powerplant considerations in this bargain? Where are Obamacare concessions? Where are the SNAP and EITC concessions? Where are Iran sanctions?

To quote Senator Blutarsky, “Where’s the Delta I used to know?” More accurately, where’s the Republican Party that never existed, that put it all on the line and stood tall?

This is Paul Ryan Ryan being Mitch McConnell’s b****, nothing more.

Monkeytoe is right. Why should I continue to vote for, and monetarily support, people who do not represent my views?

And f*** Paul Ryan.

M240H on December 11, 2013 at 11:59 AM

This is almost entirely a win for the GOP. You got everything.
 
libfreeordie on December 11, 2013 at 11:16 AM

 
To prove my point. I don’t think much more need be said.
 
Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:28 AM

 
Close the thread.

rogerb on December 11, 2013 at 12:01 PM

The GOPe puts up the biggest stink and votes conservative when they have no control over the outcome, but when they could actually make a difference they roll over like French poodles.

Wigglesworth on December 11, 2013 at 12:01 PM

“Shorter Ryan: I’m Gonna Kick Tomorrow…

It maybe be that Paul Ryan sincerely believes that Congress is EVER going to reduce spending of its own volition. In the same vein, Obama has stated that he believes his own BS. Gently as it can be put, Paul, CONSERVATIVES DO NOT. We don’t believe Obama. While some might be swayed by you confident tones, the last time a Congress successfully bound a subsequent Congress was when the follow-on Congress borrowed more money, not when that future Congress actually cut spending. All I can say is that, sometimes, you need to step away from the problem to gain some perspective.
Erick Erickson calls this budget deal the BHOICA Act of 2013.

I am old enough to remember when the GOP said not to worry about it caving on Obamacare funding because, by God, it would hold the line on sequestration.
Hell, that was a month ago.
Amazing how much can change in a month. Congressman Paul Ryan and Senator Patty Murray have decided to give up the last thing the GOP was fighting for — spending restraint. “Don’t worry,” Paul Ryan says with his boyish charm designed to induce sweats and heart palpitations among conservatives, “it’s only a little less restrained.”

The budget deal puts discretionary spending over $1 trillion, which is higher than the sequestration deal of 2011, which was at $967. This is, in fact, a spending increase.
It funds Obamacare.

It gets worse as you read RedState from there.

New rule: all talk of future spending cuts is rejected, in advance, as pure hooey. Don’t bother with it, Paul. No amount of poker face, boyish good looks, and irresistible masculine charm can sell something we know is fundamentally not gonna happen. Peddle those wares to a more gullible audience….” – Smitty

http://theothermccain.com/2013/12/11/shorter-ryan-im-gonna-kick-tomorrow/

workingclass artist on December 11, 2013 at 12:06 PM

“—Allows overall projected spending to go up from $967 billion to a little over $1 trillion”

Stopped reading there.

No!

No higher spending, higher taxes, higher guv growth. And I’m sure buried in there somewhere is a reduction in SS benefits.

In a related article:

Club for Growth President Chris Chocola said that the group stood with the likes of Sens. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), Ted Cruz (R-Texas), Tom Coburn (R-Okla.), and Rand Paul (R-Ky.), all of whom oppose the deal.

Dan Holler, a spokesman for Heritage Action, echoed Chocola’s sentiments.

“Americans are deeply concerned about the direction of the country. Over the next few days, lawmakers will have to explain to their constituents, many of whom are our members, what they’ve achieved by increasing spending, increasing taxes and offering up another round of promises waiting to be broken,” Holler told Business Insider.

Souce: BRETT LOGIURATO – Business Insider

Tsar of Earth on December 11, 2013 at 12:07 PM

I told everyone that a clean CR last year would be better than he crap sandwich the GOP would bring us – and Ryan has proven me correct.

besser tot als rot on December 11, 2013 at 12:17 PM

Disappointed in MKH propagating the fees-are-not-taxes lie.

besser tot als rot on December 11, 2013 at 12:18 PM

Traitor Ryan is just paving the way for AMNESTY …

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/10/Budget-Deal-May-Clear-Way-for-Amnesty-Vote-in-2014

Pork-Chop on December 11, 2013 at 12:18 PM

I think the constitutionality of Obamacare proves definitively that fees, even punitive fees, are taxes.

besser tot als rot on December 11, 2013 at 12:19 PM

Pork-Chop on December 11, 2013 at 12:18 PM

We’re just supposed to sit back and take it so as to not distract from the political benefit that the GOP is getting over the Obamacare disaster. Because that’s what matters – the political fortunes of the GOP. Not actual policy, or the future of this country.

besser tot als rot on December 11, 2013 at 12:21 PM

Traitor Ryan is just paving the way for AMNESTY …

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/10/Budget-Deal-May-Clear-Way-for-Amnesty-Vote-in-2014

Pork-Chop on December 11, 2013 at 12:18 PM

He’s also dead set on destroying the GOPe as a whole.

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 12:26 PM

I have a simple solution for those who don’t like the deal – win elections. Sitting around bitching behind a computer screen about the details does nothing, winning elections will.

If we are in the majority in both Houses of Congress and had a GOP president then the complaints would have resonance.

Tater Salad on December 11, 2013 at 12:27 PM

Rush ripping into the gop. Says they’re shell shocked.

renalin on December 11, 2013 at 12:28 PM

Paul Ryan has lost all credibility with conservatives through his efforts to serve the GOP establishment and the donor class.

bw222 on December 11, 2013 at 12:29 PM

Traitor Ryan is just paving the way for AMNESTY …

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/10/Budget-Deal-May-Clear-Way-for-Amnesty-Vote-in-2014

Pork-Chop on December 11, 2013 at 12:18 PM

He’s also dead set on destroying the GOPe as a whole.

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 12:26 PM

From CNBC…This happened over the weekend…

” The U.S. government has debuted the Spanish-language version of the healthcare website that will help Latinos to shop and sign up for new insurance plans under President Barack Obama’s health care reform law.

The site, http://www.CuidadoDeSalud.gov, was soft-launched over the weekend. Over the next month, the Department of Health and Human Services will boost its promotional efforts to introduce the site to Spanish-language speakers.

The Spanish-language version of the site was delayed after the disastrous October 1 launch of HealthCare.gov, which was swamped with technical glitches and did not have enough capacity to handle all the users who went to the site to enroll.

Improvements in hardware and software made to Healthcare.gov will benefit CuidadoDeSalud.gov, officials said….”

workingclass artist on December 11, 2013 at 12:30 PM

I’m not throwing in the towel on the GOP yet, but I’m getting close. Amnesty will be the last straw.

Wigglesworth on December 11, 2013 at 12:31 PM

It’s pretty clear that the only objectives of both parties is reelection and good press. And they’ll spend whatever it takes to accomplish that. Responsible governing isn’t even on the radar.

tommyboy on December 11, 2013 at 12:31 PM

Rush ripping into the gop. Says they’re shell shocked.

renalin on December 11, 2013 at 12:28 PM

I’m of the belief now that the GOPe is doing this totally on purpose. They are no different than the Dems in wanting to destroy this country for their own personal gain.

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 12:32 PM

I seriously don’t understand how any conservative can consider himself a Republican.

besser tot als rot on December 11, 2013 at 12:34 PM

I’m not throwing in the towel on the GOP yet, but I’m getting close. Amnesty will be the last straw.

Wigglesworth on December 11, 2013 at 12:31 PM

The GOPe is not worth our time. They must be viewed as the enemy alongside the Dems.

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 12:32 PM

They’re motivated by their desire to salve their egos, maintain power, and pocket the wealth they can gain. Destroying the country is just a side effect of their actions – a sacrifice they are willing to make because 1) it will not happen for decades (as they believe), and 2) they believe that they are more important than the country.

In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if they felt that they were the country since they now believe that rather than the government being of the people, for the people, and by the people, they believe the people exist to serve and support the government (them).

We no longer have civilian politicians seeking to serve the people – we have a collection of professional politicians who crave power and will surrender all principles in order to maintain their role and place in power…firm in the belief that the ramifications of their actions will be someone else’s problem.

Athos on December 11, 2013 at 12:40 PM

we have a collection of professional politicians who crave power and will surrender all principles in order to maintain their role and place in power…firm in the belief that the ramifications of their actions will be someone else’s problem.
Athos on December 11, 2013 at 12:40 PM

That’s pretty much the definition of an autocrat.

tommyboy on December 11, 2013 at 12:44 PM

I realize that it goes against the grain to sit out and potentially allow the DNC to win. But, in reality, this is the only way we are going to change the GOP in our lifetimes. We have been trying to change the GOP through action, primaries, involvement, etc. for 30 years. And it has not happened.

Almost every “conservative” we have elected and pinned our hopes on has turned on us. The establishment and the system corrupt them (if they were honestly conservative to begin with).

The only way to win the fight is to change the party. We will not change the party through constant support of the party despite its actions. That is ridiculous thinking.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:26 AM

No, you don’t “realize” the ramifications of “sitting out”. We change the GOP though our primary process, not your moronic idea of destroying the whole party for the sake of saving it. That’s not realization or reality, it’s pure fantasy and stupidity. And you’re delusional if you think throwing out the entire party, (to reform it) is a solution. It is not. Do you think the majority of Tea Party Republicans in the House is/was a waste of our efforts? When did you see a rising stars like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, and Rand Paul, (and others), shake the foundations of the establishment GOP like they have in the past two years? Perhaps you can’t see the positive changes, because they’re not moving fast enough in your direction. Yes, we have RINOS, and DINOSAURS that need to be purged from this new-age, and growing conservative movement. But your solution is far more “ridiculous thinking” than using the process/system that’s in place. Short of over-throwing the entire government, (it’s not going to happen), you can’t have it your way, and it’s ludicrous to believe—for the last time—that quitting is a solution. If I didn’t think you are/were serious about reforming conservative values, I’d accuse you of being a liberal plant, set out to do every thing in your power to keep Republicans at home next year, (just like the morons who are calling for a third party). The reality is sadly, half of this nation now leans left and/or far left, who think cradle to grave government dependency is the moral high ground. The days of Reagan Democrats, (who still had fiscal and individual responsibility in their voting souls) is over. The Republican Party, (and the ultimate fight for the independents), for better or worse, is the only thing left to prevent this society from sinking into a permanent liberal socialist monarchy from which there is no return. Dividing the Party, or sitting out, will hasten this inevitable outcome. We are on the cusp of losing all of the concerns you’ve put forth. Never, in our history has the statement of “UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL, meant more today than that of this fragile Republican Party. Exercise your constitutional right to stay home—at your own peril. It will not be on my conscience that you promoted failure.

Rovin on December 11, 2013 at 12:46 PM

Rovin on December 11, 2013 at 12:46 PM

You may want to tell that to the liberal Socialists in the GOPe who are literally daring people like Monkeytoe to leave for good.

It’s no secret that the GOPe wants to purge itself of conservatives, just like Pelosi purged the House Dems of any semblance of ‘blue dog’ representation. After all, the GOPe doesn’t really want to win, but wants to retain power at any cost, even if it’s in the minority.

The GOPe is too broken to save by primarying the failed reps, especially when Rove, Boehnor and McConnell do everything in their power to screw over those insurgent candidates. They are fragile? Good. That will make it easier for them to collapse and die like the Whigs, and an actual second party can emerge.

Myron Falwell on December 11, 2013 at 12:56 PM

F*ck you, Ryan, and the party you rode in on. Never in history has such a sustained assault on freedom been met with such cowardice, indifference and moral vapidity. Obama is a wrecking ball, demolishing more of our freedoms, rights, privacies, faiths every day and you’re making whoopie with Patty Murray. Un-fu*king-believable. You’re not just weak and pathetic, you’re stupid beyond belief to miss the political opportunity in taking on Obama and the media in the mode of Lech Walesa.

God what pathetic stupidity.

rrpjr on December 11, 2013 at 1:00 PM

From the Senate Conservatives Fund:

The budget agreement announced yesterday increases spending, raises taxes, and funds Obamacare for two years. It has the support of President Obama, Harry Reid, and countless Democrats in Washington.

What is Mitch McConnell doing to stop it? Nothing. In fact, McConnell was completely silent on the deal yesterday.

Mitch McConnell may vote against the deal so he can pretend to be a conservative, but don’t be fooled. He wants the deal to pass. He made it clear that he won’t fight the Democrats on spending and he forced his party to surrender.

It’s so disappointing because now is the perfect time for Republicans to take a stand against Obamacare. The law is very unpopular and Democrats are running for cover. In fact, Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA) just started a new TV ad distancing herself from Obamacare.

Thanks to your willingness to fight this terrible law, we’re winning the debate. But the law isn’t going to repeal itself. That will only happen if Republicans take a principled and courageous stand to stop it.

Ted Cruz and millions of Americans were right when they called on Congress to defund the law earlier this year.

American taxpayers should not be forced to pay for this train wreck.

M240H on December 11, 2013 at 1:18 PM

Brought to you by Paul Ryan. Ryan lost a debate to Crazy Joe Biteme.

alanstern on December 11, 2013 at 1:55 PM

Dear Mr. Ryan.

Thank you for your interest in creating a budget for the US Government. It’s good to see citizens of this great country apply themselves and put forth effort in something other than video games and killing each other.

That being said, your efforts are visibly a waste of time. You should go back to the drawing board as your plan continues to put very large objects in a dark place of the American taxpayer.

Our anus is bleeding and becoming infected, so you MUST stop putting your government penis in it. We are not long for this world.

Sincerely,

The United States of America

Sponge on December 11, 2013 at 1:57 PM

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 11:17 AM

The only sane commenter re. pubs. that I have seen on HA.

they lie on December 11, 2013 at 2:01 PM

Rush ripping into the gop. Says they’re shell shocked.

renalin on December 11, 2013 at 12:28 PM

This has been my theory for awhile. Obama has been playing “shock and awe” with them (and with the country). They simply can’t handle it. They don’t have the imaginative or moral capacity to apprehend the nature of Obama. They’re like 1950′s housewives baking cakes and muttering bromides of denial while their serial-killer husband drags bodies into the basement.

In fact, if you care to notice, the worse and more audacious Obama gets, the MORE compliant the GOP becomes, and the MORE reactive and hostile to the Tea Party. WE become the enemy — a classic case of fear-based displacement.

Obama is basically operating in such an unprecedented extra-Constitutional and depredatory manner as to completely short-circuit our national capacity to comprehend and cope. No one can really believe a President of the United States could be so openly destructive of his own country. And no one really knows what to do even if they were to believe. The republicans least of all.

We need a Lech Walesa. Instead we get Paul Ryans and John Boehners. We haven’t been inculcating a Walesa-type moral bravery in our citizens for 50 years. Obama knows this, and exploits it for everything it’s worth.

rrpjr on December 11, 2013 at 2:49 PM

Nothing like sinking polls to get the Democrats to even talk to Republicans.

COgirl on December 11, 2013 at 3:02 PM

No, you don’t “realize” the ramifications of “sitting out”. We change the GOP though our primary process, not your moronic idea of destroying the whole party for the sake of saving it. That’s not realization or reality, it’s pure fantasy and stupidity. And you’re delusional if you think throwing out the entire party, (to reform it) is a solution. It is not. Do you think the majority of Tea Party Republicans in the House is/was a waste of our efforts? When did you see a rising stars like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, and Rand Paul, (and others), shake the foundations of the establishment GOP like they have in the past two years? Perhaps you can’t see the positive changes, because they’re not moving fast enough in your direction. Yes, we have RINOS, and DINOSAURS that need to be purged from this new-age, and growing conservative movement. But your solution is far more “ridiculous thinking” than using the process/system that’s in place. Short of over-throwing the entire government, (it’s not going to happen), you can’t have it your way, and it’s ludicrous to believe—for the last time—that quitting is a solution. If I didn’t think you are/were serious about reforming conservative values, I’d accuse you of being a liberal plant, set out to do every thing in your power to keep Republicans at home next year, (just like the morons who are calling for a third party). The reality is sadly, half of this nation now leans left and/or far left, who think cradle to grave government dependency is the moral high ground. The days of Reagan Democrats, (who still had fiscal and individual responsibility in their voting souls) is over. The Republican Party, (and the ultimate fight for the independents), for better or worse, is the only thing left to prevent this society from sinking into a permanent liberal socialist monarchy from which there is no return. Dividing the Party, or sitting out, will hasten this inevitable outcome. We are on the cusp of losing all of the concerns you’ve put forth. Never, in our history has the statement of “UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL, meant more today than that of this fragile Republican Party. Exercise your constitutional right to stay home—at your own peril. It will not be on my conscience that you promoted failure.

Rovin on December 11, 2013 at 12:46 PM

You are insane. Nothing you say in there shows a hint of understanding reality.

First, “at my own peril”? What is that a threat? Are you going to beat me up if I don’t vote for your precious republicans? Idiot.

Second,

The Republican Party, (and the ultimate fight for the independents), for better or worse, is the only thing left to prevent this society from sinking into a permanent liberal socialist monarchy from which there is no return.

Really? You really believe this idiotic bullshit? First that we are headed toward a monarch? Or that the GOP has done/will do antything to stop the march from socialism

It is here where I pause to point out you still have not met my challenge of citing me the conservative victories that the GOP has achieved. Not one example have you provided – proving, irrefutably, my point.

not your moronic idea of destroying the whole party for the sake of saving it. That’s not realization or reality, it’s pure fantasy and stupidity. And you’re delusional if you think throwing out the entire party, (to reform it) is a solution.

Once again, you show delusional thinking. Let’s see – voting for the people who pass amnesty, agree to Ryan’s ridiculous “compromise”, increase spending, increase the size and scope of gov’t, and have stated, repeatedly that they have no intention of actually repealing Obamacare (both Boehner and McConell have publicly stated this). Voting for these people will “reform” it, but not voting for them does what, exactly in your tiny mind?

Not voting and letting republicans lose will mean that the party will have to look at what it does and decide whether or not to more right.

Voting for them means the party can continue doing what it is doing.

Please explain – with actual arguments and citing facts, how that is wrong. How does voting for the people who do the things I cite above cause them to change their behavior – explain that to me.

We have primaried and tried to primary incumbents – and party loyalists like you cry your little eyes out about it. then, when I say “stay home” you say “no, use the primary system”. So ridiculous.

But the reality is, the primary system doesn’t work. A) incumbency has too much power, b) the ones who win get co-opted 90% of the time by the establishment and c) for the most party, the establishment simply ignores, works around conservatives. Why do you think Mitch McConell and Jim DeMint hate each so much? Why do you think all of the GOP establishment figures hate Cruz and call him names publicly? Why do you think Mitch McConnell and Boehner are publicly calling for the defeat of conservatives.

We have made some progress. I admit that. But it is very slow progress and we won’t shift the GOP right for more than 50 years at this rate. In that 50 years, we are going to see the collapse of SS, collapse of various state and local pension systems, exploding debt, exploding Medicare, and of course, Obamacare costs. And the GOP is simply not going to do anything about any of it – instead we are going to get teh same B.S. we have recieved til now – more spending, more gimmicks, more entitlements and more gov’t.

yet you believe you are fighting the righteous cause. You have said a lot of words, but offered not a single fact, not a single example of how your way works or will work. I have outlined why it won’t, citing examples and facts. Yet you believe you are making some kind of rational sense?

Silly. I just can’t get over how many people can’t look at facts or make cogent arguments.

Simply arguing that the sky will fall if the GOP doesn’t win the next election is immature. You may as well tell me that God will smite me if we don’t all vote for the GOP.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 4:11 PM

Monkeytoe, not “sit out”, but support a challenger within the primary and defeat an incumbent there.
Let it be an “open” seat to fill in the General.

Another Drew on December 11, 2013 at 11:41 AM

You are missing my point. I am arguing to change the entire GOP’s thinking. You are talking about making insignificant changes – rearranging deck chairs.

The GOP establishment easily works around the few true conservatives in its midst. Adding a few more here or there won’t change anything. We would have to replace at least 51% of GOP incumbents to change the GOP’s behavior. that is simply not possible. If we change 2 or 3 an election cycle, by the time we get near the 51% mark, the first 1/2 that we put in will have been co-opted by the establishment, making us start all over. Incumbency is powerful, making challenges hard to begin with. Add to that most decent candidates don’t want to piss the party off – so don’t want to challenge, leaving us with a limited pool of potential challengers. Then add the power and organization of the GOP against independent challengers in multiple states, and we can never effect the change we need.

We thought challenging incumbents would change other GOP incumbent behavior. It didn’t. We’ve been working on changing the GOP for more than 30 years. Where has it gotten us? Here. Exactly here. Everything wrong with the U.S. – the GOP had a hand in. Everything except Obamacare. Remember that.

And, even if we had, say, 40% of the incumbent GOP as true conservatives, the remainder would work with democrats to pass stuff – as they already do. For instance, this Ryan compromise will likely pass with more D votes than R votes – (so that R’s can go back and claim to be against it to their constituents and in primaries). That is the kind of party shenanigans I am talking about.

I’m not offering “sit an election out” lightly. I’m offering it because it is the only way we will move the GOP right quickly enough to do any good.

Yes, in 75 years, if we work hard at it and challenge GOP incumbents here and there, etc., we will move the GOP right. But in 75 years it’ll probably be too late to do much good.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 4:22 PM

I have a simple solution for those who don’t like the deal – win elections. Sitting around bitching behind a computer screen about the details does nothing, winning elections will.

If we are in the majority in both Houses of Congress and had a GOP president then the complaints would have resonance.

Tater Salad on December 11, 2013 at 12:27 PM

That’s idiotic.

the deal is made by Ryan who is in the house, which the GOP controls. So, your point doesn’t even make sense.

Unless your point is that unless the GOP controls the House, Senate and WH, it won’t act conservative. In which case, why bother?

Also, it’s not even true that when the GOP controls the House, Senate and WH it acts conservative – see 2000 – 2006, when spending increased exponentially, debt increased exponentially, Medicare Plan B, No Child Left Behind and a major attempt to pass amnesty, among other things.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 4:33 PM

We would have to replace at least 51% of GOP incumbents to change the GOP’s behavior.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 4:22 PM

Clearly. Moreover you’d still have the GOP infrastructure to contend with.

The more I look at Boehner, MConnell, Ryan, McCain the more I see the urgency of destroying this party. This GOP is worse than having nothing. We’d do better in a state of complete disarray.

rrpjr on December 11, 2013 at 4:40 PM

I’ve tried to synthesize my arguments into one coherent piece for anyone who cares:

I think we, as conservatives, need to sit out the next election.
The GOP believes two things:

1) conservatives will always vote for them regardless of what they do; and
2) even if 1 isn’t correct, they can win without conservatives.

Both of those notions must be disabused before the GOP will move right.

And, if the GOP doesn’t move right – then the GOP must be terminated.

I urge everyone who considers themselves a conservative to sit out the next election.

Yes, I know, we “have a good chance to win the Senate”. So what? What, exactly, do you believe that will get us?

I’m not offering “sit an election out” lightly. I’m offering it because it is the only way we will move the GOP right quickly enough to do any good (and I’m not talking about moving them to be as conservative as I am, I’m talking reasonably conservative here – which they currently are not).

Energy spent being loyal team players and electing who our betters tell us to has accomplished exactly what conservative goal?
When the GOP held the WH, Senate and House – did they reduce spending? No, they increased it. Did they reduce the size or scope of gov’t? No, they increased it. Did they get rid of any stupid federal agencies, programs, or statutes? No, they added to them.

And, since then, what has the GOP actually done? Capitulate. Say they will capitulate (McConnell just last week stated he did not intend to repeal Obamacare – only “fix” it). Say they will do really, really stupid things (amnesty). And just now, “compromise” away any potential for cutting spending or fixing entitlements (see Paul Ryan’s newest crowning achievement).

The GOP wants to be a Center-left party, just to the right of the DNC. Anyone who doesn’t believe this is an idiot. Actions count – not words. In elections, they tell us they are conservative. But they never act that way in office.

I challenge everyone to explain the conservative “victories” your blind loyalty to the GOP has produced. Pointing to some nominees not getting through does not suffice. Because one liberal nominee is stopped, doesn’t mean another liberal nominee – not as vocal – is not confirmed. These are illusory victories, with little meaning. They feel good but accomplish nothing.

Yes, if in control, the GOP will be slightly less liberal than the DNC. That is not the same thing, even remotely, as furthering any conservative goals. It is the opposite.

I am arguing to change the entire GOP’s thinking. Those who argue we shouldn’t sit out, but instead support a “conservative” challenger in a primary or support a “conservative” candidate in the general election are talking about making insignificant changes – rearranging deck chairs.

The GOP establishment (by which I mean incumbents, their staffs, the people working for the GOP, professional campaign people, and big money donors) easily works around the few true conservatives in its midst. Adding a few more here or there won’t change anything. We would have to replace at least 51% of GOP incumbents to change the GOP’s behavior. That is simply not possible. If we change 2 or 3 an election cycle, by the time we get near the 51% mark, the first 1/2 we put worked to elect will have been co-opted by the establishment, making us start all over. Incumbency is powerful, making challenges hard to begin with. Add to that most decent candidates don’t want to piss the party off – so don’t want to challenge, leaving us with a limited pool of potential challengers. Then add the power and organization of the GOP against independent challengers in multiple states, and we can never effect the change we need.

We thought challenging incumbents would change other GOP incumbent behavior. It didn’t. We’ve been working on changing the GOP for over 30 years. Where has it gotten us? Here. Exactly here. Everything wrong with the U.S. – the GOP had a hand in. Everything except Obamacare. Remember that.

The problem is that the party controls things.

As voting for a conservative democrat is counterproductive – because in reality that allegedly conservative democrat merely allows the liberal democrats to run things and push its agenda, voting for a “conservative” GOP candidate (and they all CLAIM to be conservative at election time) is counterproductive because it allows the GOP – which is not at all conservative – run the show.
So, we vote for a “conservative” GOP candidate. Someone who promises to be anti-amnesty, for cutting spending, for cutting the size and scope of gov’t, etc.

And let’s assume they stick to those guns and vote that way (very rare). But, they help the GOP form a majority. The GOP leadership than pushes a budget that increases spending, increases the size and scope of gov’t, and pushes amnesty and instead of repeal of Obamacare – pushes a “fix” of Obamacare.

And all of those things pass with majority republican votes.
What has your vote for a “conservative” GOP candidate accomplished?

And, even if we had, say, 40% of the incumbent GOP as true conservatives, the remainder would work with democrats to pass stuff – as they already do. For instance, this Ryan compromise will likely pass with more D votes than R votes – (so that R’s can go back and claim to be against it to their constituents and in primaries). That is the kind of party shenanigans I am talking about.

The reality is, the primary system doesn’t work. A) incumbency has too much power, b) the ones who win get co-opted 90% of the time by the establishment and c) for the most party, the establishment ignores, works around conservatives. Why do you think Mitch McConell and Jim DeMint hate each so much? Why do you think all of the GOP establishment figures hate Cruz and call him names publicly? Why do you think Mitch McConnell and Boehner are publicly calling for the defeat of conservatives.

We have made some progress. . But it is very slow progress and we won’t shift the GOP right for over 50 years at this rate. In that 50 years, we will see the collapse of SS, collapse of various state and local pension systems, exploding debt, exploding Medicare, and Obamacare costs. And the GOP will do nothing about it – instead we will get the same B.S. we have received til now – more spending, more gimmicks, more entitlements and more gov’t.

Yes, in 75 years, if we work hard at it and challenge GOP incumbents here and there, etc., we will move the GOP right. But in 75 years it’ll probably be too late to do much good.

In the meantime, voting for the people who will pass amnesty, agree to Ryan’s ridiculous “compromise”, increase spending, increase the size and scope of gov’t, and have stated, repeatedly that they have no intention of actually repealing Obamacare (both Boehner and McConell have publicly stated this). Voting for these people will not “reform” the GOP, but empower it to continue behaving in this way.

Not voting and letting republicans lose will mean that the party must look at what it does and decide whether it will move right.

Think of it as “primarying” the entire party.

The reality is we have a 2 party system – that is unlikely to change. And none of the various third parties will win any time soon. So, voting for some third party will not do anything.
And, voting the “conservative” line won’t really do anything because 97% of the time, it’s just the GOP candidate.

And, in case you haven’t noticed, the party itself is fighting conservatives. The establishment is not conservative – never was (the GOP was not founded as and has never been a conservative party – it is merely a party with some conservatives in it and that is to the right of the DNC – that does not make the party conservative) and the current establishment people are unlikely to ever be ideologically conservative.

They don’t want to be conservative because they like gov’t and believe in gov’t and the big-money donors make lots of money off big gov’t. So they fight against conservatives and conservative influence on the party.

The only way to get them to toe the conservative line at all puts the fear of losing their jobs and their influence into them. The only way to do that shows them our voting power and that we WILL IN FACT use it by NOT voting for them.

They currently believe we (conservatives) will ultimately vote for them no matter what they do. And, the reality is, they have been right about this because we have done just that.

To change the dynamic, we have to prove they are not right about this – that conservatives are willing to sit out if they cross us.
As someone else said in a comment:

It demonstrates that the GOP *must* take the conservative base seriously, and behave more conservatively – even if it means they get walloped in an election – then it could be worth it.

Otherwise, going the route we’ve been going down for decades now – just reinforces to the GOP they *can* continue to be ‘liberal lite’, take conservatives for granted, and there is *no* reason for them to behave conservatively because they *can* continue to be squishes, giving the Dems what they want, and there will be *no* penalty for doing so.

Anyone who disagrees with this needs to explain how continuing to vote for the GOP – as we’ve done for decades – will suddenly result in something *different*, I’m afraid.

The only way to win the fight is to change the party. We will not change the party through constant support of the party despite its actions.

Voting for the GOP despite its behavior will not change the GOP. As an example – if a child does something wrong – do you reward the child for that behavior? If you do, you are fool because you are guarantying that behavior will continue. Well, the same is true with the GOP. If you reward the GOP by voting for it – you are incentivizing that same behavior in the future.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Voting for the GOP when the GOP is not remotely conservative and expecting them to act conservative fits well within the definition of insanity.

I’m seriously asking you to look at the GOP’s actions over the last 20 years and think rationally.

I realize that it goes against the grain to sit out and potentially allow the DNC to win. But, in reality, this is the only way we will change the GOP in our lifetimes. We have been trying to change the GOP through action, primaries, involvement, etc. for 30 years. And it has not happened.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 5:04 PM

Hey – I just had a great idea. How about we do budget cuts this year in exchange for a promise of future spending?

worldtvlr on December 11, 2013 at 5:05 PM

This statment:

I think we, as conservatives, need to sit out the next election.

Translates ONLY to this:

“Let’s help Elect some More Democrats and Liberals who support Obama’s Agenda in The Next Election Cycle.”

Therefore – whoever said it – is a STAUNCH Liberal and Obama-Supporter……..Likely getting a paycheck from George Soros.

williamg on December 11, 2013 at 5:57 PM

I’m seriously asking you to ……think rationally.

Monkeytoe on December 11, 2013 at 5:04 PM

….an act that is SO far beyond your capabilities and scope that I wouldn’t DREAM of asking that of you……

williamg on December 11, 2013 at 5:59 PM

Military retirees get screwed again too. My husband’s cost of living increases the last couple of years have already been next to nothing while the cost of everything has gone up. Now he is going to get almost nothing and that is going to be permanent until he reaches the age of 62. He has been out of work (thanks to Obummer cancelling his contract job)for most of the last 2 years.

sherrimae on December 11, 2013 at 9:31 PM

Translates ONLY to this:

“Let’s help Elect some More Democrats and Liberals who support Obama’s Agenda in The Next Election Cycle.”

Therefore – whoever said it – is a STAUNCH Liberal and Obama-Supporter……..Likely getting a paycheck from George Soros.

williamg on December 11, 2013 at 5:57 PM

Let’s see. YOu make a stupid assertion, do not refute a single argument, and think you are smart or intelligent?

Idiot.

next please. I’m sick of all you “sky is falling” types who can’t think past whether or not a politician has an “r” next to their names. You are the problem. If you vote for people who raise taxes (the GOP); increase spending (the GOP); increase gov’t entitlement programs (the GOP); increase the size and scope of government (the GOP); want to pass amnesty (the GOP); and won’t repeal Obamacare (the GOP) – you are voting for liberalism. You are just too damn stupid to see it.

Please. If you have an argument, make it. Saying “but if we don’t vote for republicans, democrats will win” is not an argument. It refutes none of my points.

You most likely did not read my comment past the first line, because most likely you can’t understand much and your head started to hurt. So, go take an aspirin, get an ice pack and ask your mommy to kiss it and make it better. Than vote for the GOP no matter what it does and tell me how you are a conservative.

I say again, you are an idiot.

Monkeytoe on December 12, 2013 at 7:45 AM

….an act that is SO far beyond your capabilities and scope that I wouldn’t DREAM of asking that of you……

williamg on December 11, 2013 at 5:59 PM

Says the guy who did not refute or even respond to a single argument I put forth and said instead “if we don’t vote for republicans, democrats will win” as if that is an argument.

Idiot.

Monkeytoe on December 12, 2013 at 7:46 AM

Please. If you have an argument, make it. Saying “but if we don’t vote for republicans, democrats will win” is not an argument. It refutes none of my points.

Monkeytoe on December 12, 2013 at 7:45 AM

In fact, if you were able to think rationally (you aren’t) you would understand that is part of my point. Showing the republicans that they need conservatives and making them actually, I don’t know . . . . behave like they care about conservative positions whatsoever?

You not only missed the point, you made the point without realizing it.

Talk about stupid.

Monkeytoe on December 12, 2013 at 7:48 AM

I will point out again – not one of the GOP loyalists who would have us vote GOP no matter what has made any argument as to why that is the right course of action.

All they say is that if we don’t vote GOP, then democrats will win.

As if that is an argument. You people need to try and think bigger than the next election and bigger than whether or not a politician has an “R” next to their name. You need to think about strategy – not strategy for the GOP (which is NOT a conservative party), but strategy for conservatism. You aren’t – you are thinking about what is best for the GOP, not what is best for conservatism.

Your strategy will never result in smaller gov’t or less spending – it will instead always result in bigger gov’t and more spending. History proves this to be true – the GOP has never reduced spending and never decreased the size or scope of gov’t.

So, the idea that voting republican blindly just to defeat democrats is somehow furthering conservatism is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. It is not supported by a single fact. All facts point in the opposite direction.

So you are making no sense. If you invest money and the investment constantly loses money, why keep putting new money into it? Because you hope that magically it will turn around? That magically, this time, it will work?

How is investing time, money and votes into the GOP any different? The GOP has never produced any conservative results. Lowering taxes while wildly increasing spending is not a conservative result. Enacting Medicare Plan B and No Child Left Behind are not conservative results. The Ryan/Murray compromise is not a conservative result. The Sequester wasn’t even a conservative result. Even appointing conservative judges is only pissing in the fire. How did Roberts work out?

That is called – surprisingly enough – magical thinking. It doesn’t work.

Monkeytoe on December 12, 2013 at 7:57 AM

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