Quotes of the day

posted at 9:41 pm on November 26, 2013 by Allahpundit

Pope Francis attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny” and beseeched global leaders to fight poverty and growing inequality, in a document on Tuesday setting out a platform for his papacy and calling for a renewal of the Catholic Church…

In it, Francis went further than previous comments criticizing the global economic system, attacking the “idolatry of money”, and urged politicians to “attack the structural causes of inequality” and strive to provide work, healthcare and education to all citizens.

He also called on rich people to share their wealth. “Just as the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say ‘thou shalt not’ to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills,” Francis wrote in the document issued on Tuesday.

“How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?”

***

Francis said trickle down policies have not been proven to work and they reflect a “naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power.”

“In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world,” Pope Francis wrote.

“This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system,” the 76-year-old pontiff added.

***

All this would warm the heart of even the most fervent atheist, except Francis has gone much further. It seems he wants to do more than simply stroke the brow of the weak. He is taking on the system that has made them weak and keeps them that way.

“My thoughts turn to all who are unemployed, often as a result of a self-centred mindset bent on profit at any cost,” he tweeted in May. A day earlier he denounced as “slave labour” the conditions endured by Bangladeshi workers killed in a building collapse. In September he said that God wanted men and women to be at the heart of the world and yet we live in a global economic order that worships “an idol called money”.

There is no denying the radicalism of this message, a frontal and sustained attack on what he calls “unbridled capitalism”, with its “throwaway” attitude to everything from unwanted food to unwanted old people. His enemies have certainly not missed it. If a man is to be judged by his opponents, note that this week Sarah Palin denounced him as “kind of liberal” while the free-market Institute of Economic Affairs has lamented that this pope lacks the “sophisticated” approach to such matters of his predecessors. Meanwhile, an Italian prosecutor has warned that Francis’s campaign against corruption could put him in the crosshairs of that country’s second most powerful institution: the mafia.

***

For the second time this year, U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., is aligning with Pope Francis on global economic views

Sanders says he continues to welcome Francis’ criticism of the global financial system, which both the senator and the pope say has plunged more of the world into poverty while benefiting the wealthy few.

“At a time when the gap between rich and everyone else is growing wider, at a time when Wall Street and large financial institutions are exerting extraordinary power over the American and world economy, I applaud the pope for continuing to speak out on these enormously important issues,” Sanders said. “Pope Francis is reminding people of all walks of life, and all religious backgrounds, that we can and must do better.”

***

Albeit in somewhat passive terms, the Church had made its political and economic position clear: It rejected communism, and specifically its suppression of religion, in favor of the West and democracy—which were tied tightly to free-market economic principles. Many years later, the Polish Pope John Paul II was given credit for helping to undermine communist rule in his country, where Catholic churches provided a space for anti-communist artists and thinkers to hold discussions and distribute anti-regime writings.

In light of this long-standing tension between the Church and communism, Pope Francis’s aggressively anti-capitalist posture seems all the more remarkable. The bishop of Rome hasn’t just condemned what he sees as a failed free-market—he’a condemned the ethic and ideology that underlie free-market economies. “The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase,” Francis writes. “In the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.”

This is more than just a lecture about ethics; it’s a statement about who should control financial markets. At least right now, Francis says, the global economy needs more government control—an argument that would have been unthinkable for the pope just 50 years ago.

***

It’s interesting to think of Pope Francis’ assessment in light of Pope John Paul II’s past condemnation of communism and the “social assistance state.” In 1991, he observed…

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of state, the so-called ‘Welfare State.’ This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoke very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the ‘Social Assistance State.’ Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.

“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending, In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need.”

***

[W]hat I think is curious about this document is a longstanding peeve of mine. Ever since the Galileo incident, the Catholic Church has generally tried to be careful to get its science right before it opines on ethical matters related to science. It takes seriously questions of bioethics and has developed internal expertise on those issues. Yet when it comes to economics, the Church seems to have no qualms about opining on issues of economics without even the slightest idea of what it is talking about.

I mean, seriously?

“204. We can no longer trust in the unseen forces and the invisible hand of the market. Growth in justice requires more than economic growth, while presupposing such growth: it requires decisions, programmes, mechanisms and processes specifically geared to a better distribution of income, the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality. I am far from proposing an irresponsible populism, but the economy can no longer turn to remedies that are a new poison, such as attempting to increase profits by reducing the work force and thereby adding to the ranks of the excluded.”

Well darn that John Paul II for helping to bring freedom to Poland and getting rid of all those “decisions, programmes, mechanisms and processes” that were so beneficial to the Poles under Communism.

***

Capitalism does not breed poverty; it alleviates it. Compare the life expectancy of a medieval serf–rarely 30 years–to someone living in Western Europe today: Pope Francis, for example, who has reached the ripe old age of 76 thanks to modern medicine. He lived through the Cold War and its showcase of the obvious disparity between the United States, a land of economic “survival of the fittest,” according to Francis, and the Soviet Union. It was “a country with some of the most fertile land on the continent of Europe,” writes economist and TAS contributor Thomas Sowell, where the market principles that Pope Francis rergards suspiciously were abandoned, and as a result “at least 6 million people starved to death in the 1930s[.]”…

The pope, who recognizes in his exhortation the importance of economics, should keep in mind that the limited resources of the world could not possibly be allocated or “distributed” without some sort of system that allocates them efficiently, taking into account supply and demand, as well as scarcity and the difficulty of production and extraction: that is, prices. For someone who writes of others’ displaying “crude and naïve trust”, the pope sometimes betrays a rather naïve understanding of economics.

***

I don’t wish to stand in the way of people enjoying other people’s prejudices, but Francis’s hyperbolic rants about the role and allegedly dictatorial power of free markets are embarrassing in their wrongness. Cheering them on is like donating money to a Creationist Museum, only with more potential impact…

More people have escaped poverty the past 25 years than were alive on the planet in 1800. Their “means of escape” was largely the introduction of at least some “laws of competition” in endeavors that had long been the exclusive domain of authoritarian, monopolistic governments…

To look upon the miracles of this world and lament the lack of “means of escape” is to advertise your own ignorance. To call it a “tyranny” is to do violence to any meaningful sense of that important word (much like Francis’s predecessor did with his silly “dictatorship of relativism” crack). And to make such absolutist statements as “everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest” is to admit up front that you are not primarily interested in spreading truth, but rather in exciting popular passions. Which I suppose makes sense.

***

Troubling? Yes, and that’s probably too gentle a word. If this was just a discussion within the Roman Catholic church aimed solely at how its members should behave that, for the most part, would be up to them. But the pope’s words are rather more than that. In Francis, we see a charming and charismatic advocate (complete with large megaphone and the attention of a sizeable slice of the world) for economic policies of a type that have failed and failed and failed again, not least in the Argentina of his youth, the Argentina of Perón, the Argentina that he evidently still sees as some sort of model.

That’s not good news, nor is it likely to be the source of much joy.

***


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Soulshine – Govt Mule

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:24 PM

Love this song. I’ve seen Warren Haynes three times with the Allman Brothers, but never Gov’t Mule.

This one gives me goosebumps every time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnngXqTL4uE

Mark1971 on November 26, 2013 at 11:37 PM

jrsrigmvr on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

Thank you, Fred. I wish you and yours a wonderful Thanksgiving, too. :)

Yes… I’m very familiar with leaving the water running, and heat tape. Beats no water and/or broken pipes. Still…it must be so beautiful there… with the snow and the moonlight.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:37 PM

Nice Bishop J.

Evening all

So, is the pope a socialist/commie like obama or not? No need to read the entire thread if you’ve solved it. Thank you in advance.

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:37 PM

I’m pretty sure this wasn’t in Obama’s latest email to his followers.

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 11:33 PM

lol I agree! :)

Choomy speaking of his “Muslim faith”

Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:37 PM

FloatingRock on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

Not forgetting the NSA reportedly spied/listened/read on conversations within the Vatican…

Inquiring minds wish to know :)

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:38 PM

Mark1971 on November 26, 2013 at 11:37 PM

Good evening, Mark1971.:) How’ve you been?

Lucky you. :) Great band, Haynes is great with anyone, and that tune is one of the best.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:38 PM

America was founded on the untested proposition that people could govern themselves. The government holding the states together would be small, acting only on those things necessarily acted upon by a common government — providing a common defense, brokering uniform international treaties, making interstate trade regular. The states could be managed as the people saw fit, but the attitude of limited government was pervasive. The law was to exist mostly only for it’s noblest purpose, to protect the inherent rights of the weak against usurpation by the strong. It was an aspirational package of ideas for royal subjects, slave owners, and the like, but they tried it anyway.

In such a way of life, it’s possible to take care of the widows and orphans as commanded by God, and it’s possible to build a palace of gold and throw grapes at them from high windows. It was remarked that this new way of doing things was not available to an immoral people. If the people were not virtuous, the whole thing would crash down.

Some people have not been exposed to the idea, or understood the idea, that the government, the State, is not necessarily the structure through which people’s everyday problems are solved. It doesn’t sound like the new Pope understands it. That’s a little tragic, because there is room in such a system — which is a wide open system where people can act freely according to their conscience — for the Catholic church to go about the work God would have it attend to, like taking care of the widows and orphans, and like teaching people that throwing grapes at them is wrong. There would be no better opportunity for Christians to be Christian in words and actions — no better opportunity to show anyone with eyes to see the contrast between the ways of God (and their results) and the ways of man apart from God.

The Pope seems to be espousing top-down, State control of people’s lives in order to make them better. He seems to be skipping over any question of Socialism and making an argument that the socialist law should defer more to God’s will for people’s conduct. The Church has tried being the State, with poor results — maybe because building a secular structure attracts exactly the same secular people to positions of power that would have been attracted otherwise, and those people are no more interested in God’s will than they would have been otherwise. The Church running the world means that the Church’s doctrine is the law and the law is the Church’s doctrine — and that means men will constantly try to make room for their vices as they always do, and that means the doctrine is under constant assault, and that means the doctrine is ultimately polluted, to a greater or lesser extent, and people have to endure the abomination of utterly Godless men wearing priestly robes. Socialized Christianity weakens the universal church.

The American ideas of separation are better and more Christian. A few fundamental propositions are required to create any government, and for us, those were Christian (and Jewish) propositions. Killing your daughter for being raped to restore your family’s honor, for example, is called “murder.” And having done that — stop. You are now free to be Christian without apology, and to work hard on the things God would have you work on.

If Christians were suddenly serious about the work of the Kingdom of Heaven, and if America were suddenly serious about limited government — America would suddenly be a paradise, as much as that’s possible in a fallen world.

Axe on November 26, 2013 at 11:38 PM

Jay Leno is on fire tonight…

OmahaConservative on November 26, 2013 at 11:39 PM

@Spark — done with Leia.

She’ll never hold a blaster again though. Heh.

Axe on November 26, 2013 at 11:39 PM

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:37 PM

Good evening, my friend. :) Wonderful to see you, as always.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:39 PM

Axe on November 26, 2013 at 11:38 PM

Where’s the real Axe?

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Acts 5:29: But Peter and the Apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.”
Acts 10:25-26: When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”
Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:26 PM

I’m pretty sure this wasn’t in Obama’s latest email to his followers.

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 11:33 PM

…now that thar’…is funny A-C…what?

KOOLAID2 on November 26, 2013 at 11:40 PM

The only system that works is the one where each person is responsible for his own actions, and reaps the just consequences thereof.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:36 PM

When will people start re-teaching these principles again?!

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:40 PM

How does a Catholic go about being honestly skeptical about the “divine” authority of the Pope and the Magisterium?
Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

Easy. The same way you’d question ANY premise. In this case the premise can be examined by reference to SCRIPTURAL authority. Find a basis in Scripture for the transmission of Papal authority from Peter to ANY subsequent human being.

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Heh, if obama would have known that this pope has socialist leanings he would have declared himself not only a Christian, but a Catholic.

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:41 PM

Long apologetic for capitalism and Christianity, followed by a sex joke about a toy doll.

. . . I’m for all markets. :)

{{{{{Sophie Ro}}}}}

Axe on November 26, 2013 at 11:42 PM

Speaking of Leonard Cohen, maybe this is Closing Time for this age and the beginning of a new Dark Ages.

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 11:03 PM

Thanks for that one. I love Leonard Cohen.

onlineanalyst on November 26, 2013 at 11:42 PM

FloatingRock on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

dude: just screwing with ya. I don’t give a shit what the pope says. won’t change when i get up tomorrow, what i have for breakfast, or how much whiskey i might decide to drink. it’s all bs anywhoo. i’m really easy to get along with as long as you buy every other round.

Fred

jrsrigmvr on November 26, 2013 at 11:42 PM

Jay Leno is on fire tonight…

OmahaConservative on November 26, 2013 at 11:39 PM

“Obama’s numbers are very bad, down to 37% now…in fact it’s so bad for him that the turkey he pardoned said “no pictures please”” — Leno

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:42 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwf9k-vGpRU#t=745

Allman Brothers – Whipping Post 2013

Mark1971 on November 26, 2013 at 11:43 PM

Axe on November 26, 2013 at 11:38 PM

Gob Smacked in a very good way!!

Brilliant!! WOW!! ^^^5

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:43 PM

Axe, it’s Capitalism :)

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:43 PM

Well said. I agree.

tngmv on November 26, 2013 at 11:11 PM

Thank you.

If you accept the premise that charity is inherently good, it is a moral duty.

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:09 PM

I’m not sure that because an action is good, that it somehow becomes mandatory to perform that action.
For example, I think that it would be a good thing and virtuous to feed someone who is hungry right now and unable to provide food for themselves. But it is not my moral duty to stop banging on my keyboard right now, go to the grocery store, then seek out and feed someone who is hungry.

I think that an action becomes virtuous when it is performed through free will rather than because it is mandated. When the action is coerced, it loses its virtue.

I very much like the works of Ayn Rand, but I don’t think that she was infallible or perfect in her reasoning.

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM

Give me the law breaking, the uneducatable
The entitlement mobs yearning to get stuff free
The democrat party’s future voters
Send these, the violent, the gimmedats
The easily-lead to me
And I will give you democrat party hegemony!

VorDaj on November 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM

When will people start re-teaching these principles again?!

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Soon, I hope. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and they were already starting to indoctrinate the children into the collective.

Here’s one for you, Scrumpy.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM

I knew he was a commie.

When I attend Mass these days, I arrive just before the Gospel, and leave right after Communion.

What the heck else can I do with such knuckleheads like this Pope.

KirknBurker on November 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:41 PM

There are times like these when one should keep those kind of ideas to oneself and not broadcast them!!! (Kidding) :)

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:45 PM

On Your Way Down

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:45 PM

The Church running the world means that the Church’s doctrine is the law and the law is the Church’s doctrine — and that means men will constantly try to make room for their vices as they always do, and that means the doctrine is under constant assault, and that means the doctrine is ultimately polluted, to a greater or lesser extent, and people have to endure the abomination of utterly Godless men wearing priestly robes. Socialized Christianity weakens the universal church.

~Axefellow

This key. This is the reason for the Inquisition, selling indulgences, and the primary reason communism in any form always fails. Human beings are flawed, often, fatally flawed.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Church meddling in secular governance, in politics, is courting Absolute Power.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:46 PM

Sorry… “This IS key”.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:47 PM

Banks Of The Deep End – Govt Mule

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:47 PM

well I probably have no right to question the human head of my Church. Still…

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:12 PM

Assuming you aren’t being sarcastic, do you believe anyone who’d suggest you not ask questions could ever have a good reason for doing so?

Ayn Rand was born Jewish.
If only the Protestants didn’t believe that non-Jesus accepting Jews go to Hell..
*Catholic Church doesn’t teach that-provided that the Jews actually believed in God.*

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:22 PM

There are a lot of different Protestant views on Hell, you know…

Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:48 PM

Good evening, Mark1971.:) How’ve you been?

Lucky you. :) Great band, Haynes is great with anyone, and that tune is one of the best.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:38 PM

Check out this one. Warren Haynes is great with just himself and an acoustic guitar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvbV0gB-81c

Mark1971 on November 26, 2013 at 11:48 PM

Hallelujah

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:50 PM

What ebrawer said!! Again a ^ 5

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

*takes a bow*

Let me go on the record to say that unregulated capitalism is just as much of a scourge on the population as communism or dictatorship.

Unregulated capitalism brought us slavery, child labor, and currently, the enabling of illegal immigration. Unregulated capitalism brought about the need for labor unions, OSHA, FDA, etc.

Properly regulated capitalism is a huge benefit to the general population. Dictatorships, communism, monarchies, socialism, etc, do not lend themselves to proper regulation, and therefore will never work. The only system that works is the one where each person is responsible for his own actions, and reaps the just consequences thereof.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:36 PM

You are trying to present a regulated-unregulated capitalism dichotomy, but what you are in fact comparing and contrasting is anarchy versus capitalism.

Capitalism requires are government who’s mandate is to protect individuals from the initiation of force.

You could not operate as a rational being and make long-term decisions, e.g. “What should I produce for the next 6 months” if you didn’t know you wouldn’t be robbed by the latest gang to be in control next month, or especially if you were literally enslaved. You couldn’t take long-term rational economic decisions if you could be defrauded with impunity, or if no contract could be enforced except by the strongest gang in power at the moment.

By substituting “unregulated capitalism” for anarchy and “regulated capitalism” for capitalism, you are trying to justify horrible economic controls and interventions that undermine the objectivity of the law and capitalism itself.

The labor unions you consider to be crucial are a part of it. Those are labour monopolies, granted by the government. Historically speaking, they are justified as a reaction to violence by business owners, and yet if that was the only problem the government could simply have enforced laws on the books against initiation of force. Their true purpose was to stop businesses from hiring blacks and other minorities who were willing to voluntarily work for the offered wage.

You’re on record, but you can still change the record.

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:50 PM

Mark1971 on November 26, 2013 at 11:48 PM

Bookmarked. Thanks. :)

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:50 PM

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM

Beautiful song by 2 very beautiful and talented singers…

Thanks!! Loved it :)

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:50 PM

Nice Axe.

I feel cheap adding music, on the same post.

Wind up, Tull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBIKANqHN4M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

wolly4321 on November 26, 2013 at 11:51 PM

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:46 PM

It’s why, in my own way, in a short way, I said what I said on page one, in my own words… lol…

Well stated !!

(Are I gonna have to go back and get them?) lmao…

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:53 PM

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:46 PM

Didn’t mean to imply that your words were not yours! Sorry!

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM

Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:48 PM

Nope. No sarcasm.
I’ve been a Nazarene. Except for their being ‘dry’-I like them.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:50 PM

I suppose if you are looking at the short term, you are correct.

Labor Unions (or as they say in the UK, labour unions) are more hindrance than help today, but you cannot say the same thing about the United States at the end of the 19 th or the first third of the 20th centuries.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM

Time To Confess – Govt Mule

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM

I didn’t think you implied that at all, Scrumpy. No worries. :)

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Jay Leno’s skit just got filthy, but very funny…

OmahaConservative on November 26, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:48 PM

The creation of Hell was promulgated to amass the sinners unto church control, any church control…

People believed there was such a place, I do not.

Hell and torment is a creation of wicked men.

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:56 PM

I linked to this thread in a Catholic FB group that I’m part of. One of the members wants to know if Pope Francis was accurately translated. She hopes not.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:56 PM

Axe, it’s Capitalism :)

Schadenfreude on November 26, 2013 at 11:43 PM

I always feel like I’m tossing Marx a bone when I even use the word. I mean, really. A special word for a free marketplace. :)

Yeah, yeah, I’ll — work on Capitalization. :)

Axe on November 26, 2013 at 11:57 PM

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Not my night to write lengthy stuff, unlike Axe!! Wow!!

I like to keep it simple whilst ALL the words I should say race thru my mind, I condense it… more efficient for me, cuz I always forget everything I really want to say anyway!!

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:58 PM

The Audacity of Pope. No need for the Obama Girl anymore when you’ve got the Obama Pope.

Your Excellency, STFU and pray.

TXUS on November 26, 2013 at 11:59 PM

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:50 PM

By the way, the key is liberty.

And by that I mean freedom from government. Too much freedom, e.g. no government, means just as much trouble as too much government.

Basically, institutions must be separate from government; religious, social, and economic institutions, and the hand of government should be light and used only to ensure fair treatment, not “fair” outcomes.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:59 PM

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:58 PM

Likely the poet in you. Economy of words, maximum imagery and impact. :)

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:59 PM

Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM

Where did you get all that?

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:00 AM

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Church meddling in secular governance, in politics, is courting Absolute Power.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:46 PM

And one ‘religion’ that does that is quite enough.

VorDaj on November 27, 2013 at 12:00 AM

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:58 PM

As Shakespeare said, sweet Scrumpster, brevity is the soul of wit.

TXUS on November 27, 2013 at 12:01 AM

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:00 AM

Never mind. I shall click on huge link!!

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:01 AM

Something Stupid

jaime on November 27, 2013 at 12:01 AM

VorDaj on November 27, 2013 at 12:00 AM

Good evening, VoDaj.:) Indeed. More than enough.

thatsafactjack on November 27, 2013 at 12:02 AM

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:58 PM

me 2, but answer me this: if he’s the pope why isn’t it popal instead of papel. never could figure that out. i don’t speak catholic.

Fred

jrsrigmvr on November 27, 2013 at 12:02 AM

Oh i forgot: HI CHRISSY!

Fred

jrsrigmvr on November 27, 2013 at 12:03 AM

Francis…urged politicians to “attack the structural causes of inequality”

Um, Frankie, the cause of inequality is that we are all born in unequal environments with unequal abilities.

itsnotaboutme on November 27, 2013 at 12:03 AM

I’m not sure that because an action is good, that it somehow becomes mandatory to perform that action.
For example, I think that it would be a good thing and virtuous to feed someone who is hungry right now and unable to provide food for themselves. But it is not my moral duty to stop banging on my keyboard right now, go to the grocery store, then seek out and feed someone who is hungry.

I think that an action becomes virtuous when it is performed through free will rather than because it is mandated. When the action is coerced, it loses its virtue.

I very much like the works of Ayn Rand, but I don’t think that she was infallible or perfect in her reasoning.

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 11:44 PM

The logic I presented you with is actually an application of the philosophy of Immanuel Kant, the philosopher who tried to reconcile Christianity and reason in his “Critique of pure reason”. Ultimately, it is a rationalistic development from the Platonic roots of Christianity.

The fact that you disagree with that reasoning is greatly to your credit, but the question is whether you will further challenge the premises you have previously accepted on faith.

As you’ve seen with Francis’s Evangelii gaudium, the papacy itself is in disagreement with you. And this isn’t recent. The following encyclicals demonstrate this is established Church doctrine:

Populorum progressio, Paul VI, 1967.
Sollicitudo rei socialis, Paul II, 1987.
Caritas in veritate, Benedict XVI, 2009.

There is a clear contradiction between your thinking and that of the Pope. I regard your moral judgement to be superior to the Pope’s in regard to charity not being a duty. So that is why I recommend Ayn Rand. She may not be infallible, but she never claimed to be, unlike the papacy (Ineffabilis Deus).

Between the “The Virtue of Selfishness” and “Populorum Progressio”, I know what my choice is.

What is yours?

ebrawer on November 27, 2013 at 12:03 AM

Axe on November 26, 2013 at 11:57 PM

Is the pope a socialist or not?

Schadenfreude on November 27, 2013 at 12:04 AM

Nope. No sarcasm.
I’ve been a Nazarene. Except for their being ‘dry’-I like them.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM

Would you agree with me that anyone who’d seek to inhibit you from asking questions is up to no good?

The creation of Hell was promulgated to amass the sinners unto church control, any church control…

People believed there was such a place, I do not.

Hell and torment is a creation of wicked men.

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:56 PM

I wanted to help alt see this, that there are many, many different Protestant beliefs about Hell…

Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 12:04 AM

TXUS, for you.

Schadenfreude on November 27, 2013 at 12:05 AM

The Messiah Will Come Again – Moore

thatsafactjack on November 27, 2013 at 12:06 AM

I linked to this thread in a Catholic FB group that I’m part of. One of the members wants to know if Pope Francis was accurately translated. She hopes not.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:56 PM

Report back that it was a very flawed translation as it was translated by the same company that did healthcare dot gov.

The correct translation is -

I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ’s heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all true Christians of whatever rank, Catholic and Protestant, clergy and lay persons, poor and rich, to storm Washington promptly and to remove that vile man who is making war against America and against God. I say this to those who are present, it is meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

VorDaj on November 27, 2013 at 12:06 AM

I hope persistance pays.

wolly4321 on November 27, 2013 at 12:06 AM

Francis said trickle down policies have not been proven to work and they reflect a “naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power.”

Poor old Frankie has a naive trust in the goodness of those wielding governmental power.

Rich businessmen can’t tax you or use the State to persecute you.
Like Obama & other Statists do.

itsnotaboutme on November 27, 2013 at 12:07 AM

My soon-to-be monk friend linked the official Vatican version.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 27, 2013 at 12:07 AM

Luke 10:16 shows that one way to slam the door shut on Christ is to look at the men giving the messages rather than the God who is behind them: “My followers, whoever listens to you is listening to me. Anyone who says ‘No’ to you is saying ‘No’ to me. And anyone who says ‘No’ to me is really saying ‘No’ to the one who sent me” (Contemporary English Version).

If we believe in how minutely God is involved in our lives, then it follows that what is preached in Sabbath services has a purpose and is allowed by the Sovereign God. Therefore, a complaint that we have about a speaker or the message is a complaint against God. Despising the spiritual food God has prepared is dangerous ground to tread.

This does not mean the speaker is infallible, by any means, but the wrong attitude effectively diminishes what we can glean from his message. A safer approach would be to offer a prayer for help to understand and see how the food is for our good (Psalm 84:11) rather than to slam the door on the message or the messenger. Either we trust and have faith in God’s sovereignty and His love for us, or we do not. There is no safe middle ground (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:08 AM

The correct translation is -

I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ’s heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all true Christians of whatever rank, Catholic and Protestant, clergy and lay persons, poor and rich, to storm Washington promptly and to remove that vile man who is making war against America and against God. I say this to those who are present, it is meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

VorDaj on November 27, 2013 at 12:06 AM

I knew someone would find the correct translation!!

Thanks a bunch!! :)

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:11 AM

The organized Church claims dominion over my soul. The State claims dominion over my body. What, then, is left me and my God?

thatsafactjack on November 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM

annoyinglittletwerp on November 27, 2013 at 12:07 AM

Thanks for posting, I saved it :)

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM

me 2, but answer me this: if he’s the pope why isn’t it popal instead of papel. never could figure that out. i don’t speak catholic.

Fred

jrsrigmvr on November 27, 2013 at 12:02 AM

I guess “papal” & “papacy” derive from “papa,” or father.

Some call the pope “holy father,” despite instructions from the true holy one, Jesus.

itsnotaboutme on November 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM

I suppose if you are looking at the short term, you are correct.

Labor Unions (or as they say in the UK, labour unions) are more hindrance than help today, but you cannot say the same thing about the United States at the end of the 19 th or the first third of the 20th centuries.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:54 PM

It’s spelt labour where I live, in Canada, as well.

Labour unions were never beneficial qua-monopoly. Again, the government could have intervened against violence without granting monopolies. I’ll point out that the concept that certain measures are necessary and proper only at certain periods in history based on the historical opposition of forces is actually founded in Marxism.

By the way, the key is liberty.

And by that I mean freedom from government. Too much freedom, e.g. no government, means just as much trouble as too much government.

Basically, institutions must be separate from government; religious, social, and economic institutions, and the hand of government should be light and used only to ensure fair treatment, not “fair” outcomes.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:59 PM

There is no such thing as “too much freedom”, just like there is no such thing as “too much poison”. It’s very much a boolean in terms of desirability.

Here is a relevant passage that touches the same idea:

Do not be misled . . . by an old collectivist trick which goes like this: there is no absolute freedom anyway, since you are not free to murder; society limits your freedom when it does not permit you to kill; therefore, society holds the right to limit your freedom in any manner it sees fit; therefore, drop the delusion of freedom—freedom is whatever society decides it is.

It is not society, nor any social right, that forbids you to kill—but the inalienable individual right of another man to live. This is not a “compromise” between two rights—but a line of division that preserves both rights untouched. The division is not derived from an edict of society—but from your own inalienable individual right. The definition of this limit is not set arbitrarily by society—but is implicit in the definition of your own right.

Within the sphere of your own rights, your freedom is absolute.

ebrawer on November 27, 2013 at 12:13 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen, Peeps and Peepettes, Rulers and Ruled, the time will come when separation of Mosque and State even in America will outlive its usefulness. Marx, either Groucho or Karl, I can’t remember which, maybe it was both or maybe it was Harpo, once said that separation of Mosque and State in America is the opiate of the people. I say that when the separation of Mosque and State in America outlives its usefulness and America is put under Shariah law, then opium…will be the opiate… Ahh that’s not a bad idea… we are going to need that badly especially when alcohol is outlawed … and I think that I have another appointment. I certainly hope so. I would like to stay here, but for the sake of brevity I, I must leave. I do want to thank you, and I want to thank the Founding Fathers as well as the Greatest Generation for all the sacrifices they made however much they were in vain but now, most of all, and looking into the future .. I want to thank our new religious leader Imam al Hussein Obama … acting 12th Imam and … Spy Master and Drone Commander of the whole World – and also I want to thank Professor Irwin Corey and again, thank you. …

RasThavas on November 27, 2013 at 12:13 AM

Something Stupid

jaime on November 27, 2013 at 12:01 AM

Shania Twain – “Don’t Be Stupid (You Know I Love You)” (original)

Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM

To anyone who cares to answer my dumb question cuz I really don’t know.

When the Pope writes these things, are they like a new law? Is this somthing new to be adopted bt the Church?

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:16 AM

I guess “papal” & “papacy” derive from “papa,” or father.

Some call the pope “holy father,” despite instructions from the true holy one, Jesus.

itsnotaboutme on November 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM

Pope is from “Pontifex maximus”, the original latin office title.

It means master of the bridges. The pope was in charge of the bridges in Rome.

Then he became in charge of Jesus.

ebrawer on November 27, 2013 at 12:16 AM

I read some Kant when I was young. Don’t remember a word of it.

Man. I wish I remembered all I read.

Somehow I remember it different, though.

wolly4321 on November 27, 2013 at 12:16 AM

Angel – Judas Priest

thatsafactjack on November 27, 2013 at 12:16 AM

After the economic collapse and bank meltdown in 2008, I hope that we all appreciate the need for some market regulations.

Illinidiva

Ahhh, yes, the old “there weren’t any regulations in place” canard. Never mind that there were and still are thousands of regulations in place already, some of which were directly responsible for the economic issues in 2007-2008.

Still not fooling anyone, Ms. Moby, so you can come out of that closet any time now.

xblade on November 27, 2013 at 12:17 AM

thatsafactjack on November 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM

Our minds…

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:18 AM

When the Pope writes these things, are they like a new law? Is this somthing new to be adopted bt the Church?

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:16 AM

My understanding is that it’s a scholarly publication adding to the body of Catholic doctrine. It becomes the teaching of the church, but it’s not exactly a “law” in any sense. That said, if a priest or office holder were to violate the teachings in important enough a way, he could be excommunicated.

Any Catholics have anything to add or correct?

ebrawer on November 27, 2013 at 12:21 AM

Schadenfreude on November 27, 2013 at 12:05 AM

Veddy intressting.

TXUS on November 27, 2013 at 12:21 AM

The organized Church claims dominion over my soul. The State claims dominion over my body. What, then, is left me and my God?

thatsafactjack on November 27, 2013 at 12:12 AM

Good question about the church.

I think that’s one reason many people pulled away from the Catholic church. Catholics believe that people are required to have a relationship with the church in order to have a relationship to God. Most Protestant churches don’t believe that, unless they believe in predestination, which sort of makes it moot in the end anyway…

I’ve been saving this one for you, jackie.

jaime on November 27, 2013 at 12:22 AM

There is no such thing as “too much freedom”, just like there is no such thing as “too much poison”. It’s very much a boolean in terms of desirability.

ebrawer on November 27, 2013 at 12:13 AM

A greater man than you or I once had a different take:

“There’s just too much consuming going on!” – SC Sen. Fritz Hollings(D)

Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 12:22 AM

South America really does have a fondness for Socialists, don’t they. I guess this should come as no surprise. I would love to hear his position on the Socialist quasi-dictators in his own back yard, specifically the commie running Venezuela. Mr. Maduro is doing a fine job destroying that country. What does the Pope have to say to that?

ncconservative on November 27, 2013 at 12:23 AM

ebrawer on November 27, 2013 at 12:21 AM

Thank you very much!! Greatly appreciated :)

Welcome to QOTD where not only are the topics discussed, but anything and everything go on ‘in’ here!! ;)

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:23 AM

jaime on November 27, 2013 at 12:22 AM

What a great tune, Jaime. Thank you. :) I bookmarked it, too.

thatsafactjack on November 27, 2013 at 12:24 AM

If we believe in how minutely God is involved in our lives, then it follows that what is preached in Sabbath services has a purpose and is allowed by the Sovereign God. Therefore, a complaint that we have about a speaker or the message is a complaint against God. Despising the spiritual food God has prepared is dangerous ground to tread.

This does not mean the speaker is infallible, by any means, but the wrong attitude effectively diminishes what we can glean from his message. A safer approach would be to offer a prayer for help to understand and see how the food is for our good (Psalm 84:11) rather than to slam the door on the message or the messenger. Either we trust and have faith in God’s sovereignty and His love for us, or we do not. There is no safe middle ground (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 12:08 AM

What?

“If we believe in how minutely God is involved in our lives, then it follows that [x] has a purpose and is allowed by the Sovereign God. Therefore, a complaint that we have about [x] is a complaint against God.”

^ Fatalistic and radioactive idea, that one. That idea requires gloves. It isn’t the same as the idea that God will use things to your advantage, or that there is meaning in everything.

Consider fragment of the “Lord’s Prayer” — “Your Kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.” Sort of implies his will isn’t done on earth. And Jesus saying this: “In this world, you will have trouble.” And Paul: “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.”

. . . + 1 bazillion more. :)

Axe on November 27, 2013 at 12:24 AM

Okay, I remember Kant now affter your wiki link.

He was a German loon.

I remember now his rants. They rambled disconjointed forever.

Did they have LSD back then?

wolly4321 on November 27, 2013 at 12:25 AM

Veddy intressting.

TXUS on November 27, 2013 at 12:21 AM

When I saw it today your comment from a few nights ago came to mind.

Schadenfreude on November 27, 2013 at 12:25 AM

http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/nasas-stereo-shows-comet-ison-approaching-the-sun/index.html

missed us by that much…

Comet ISON and Comet Encke bypass Earth ….in the same week..!!!

going2mars on November 27, 2013 at 12:25 AM

Dream On – DIO/Malmsteen

thatsafactjack on November 27, 2013 at 12:26 AM

Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 12:14 AM

You’re such a sweet girl, A-C. Thanks for the song.

jaime on November 27, 2013 at 12:26 AM

There is no such thing as “too much freedom”, just like there is no such thing as “too much poison”. It’s very much a boolean in terms of desirability.

ebrawer on November 27, 2013 at 12:13 AM

You are an Anarchist?

Axe on November 27, 2013 at 12:27 AM

South America really does have a fondness for Socialists, don’t they. I guess this should come as no surprise. I would love to hear his position on the Socialist quasi-dictators in his own back yard, specifically the commie running Venezuela. Mr. Maduro is doing a fine job destroying that country. What does the Pope have to say to that?

ncconservative on November 27, 2013 at 12:23 AM

You left out his very own Argentinean scumhag and witch. God, I despise that woman. He did too, and as soon as he became pope she used him as a trophy, and he forgave her. Before they hated each other’s guts.

Schadenfreude on November 27, 2013 at 12:28 AM

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