Quotes of the day

posted at 9:41 pm on November 26, 2013 by Allahpundit

Pope Francis attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny” and beseeched global leaders to fight poverty and growing inequality, in a document on Tuesday setting out a platform for his papacy and calling for a renewal of the Catholic Church…

In it, Francis went further than previous comments criticizing the global economic system, attacking the “idolatry of money”, and urged politicians to “attack the structural causes of inequality” and strive to provide work, healthcare and education to all citizens.

He also called on rich people to share their wealth. “Just as the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say ‘thou shalt not’ to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills,” Francis wrote in the document issued on Tuesday.

“How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?”

***

Francis said trickle down policies have not been proven to work and they reflect a “naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power.”

“In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world,” Pope Francis wrote.

“This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system,” the 76-year-old pontiff added.

***

All this would warm the heart of even the most fervent atheist, except Francis has gone much further. It seems he wants to do more than simply stroke the brow of the weak. He is taking on the system that has made them weak and keeps them that way.

“My thoughts turn to all who are unemployed, often as a result of a self-centred mindset bent on profit at any cost,” he tweeted in May. A day earlier he denounced as “slave labour” the conditions endured by Bangladeshi workers killed in a building collapse. In September he said that God wanted men and women to be at the heart of the world and yet we live in a global economic order that worships “an idol called money”.

There is no denying the radicalism of this message, a frontal and sustained attack on what he calls “unbridled capitalism”, with its “throwaway” attitude to everything from unwanted food to unwanted old people. His enemies have certainly not missed it. If a man is to be judged by his opponents, note that this week Sarah Palin denounced him as “kind of liberal” while the free-market Institute of Economic Affairs has lamented that this pope lacks the “sophisticated” approach to such matters of his predecessors. Meanwhile, an Italian prosecutor has warned that Francis’s campaign against corruption could put him in the crosshairs of that country’s second most powerful institution: the mafia.

***

For the second time this year, U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., is aligning with Pope Francis on global economic views

Sanders says he continues to welcome Francis’ criticism of the global financial system, which both the senator and the pope say has plunged more of the world into poverty while benefiting the wealthy few.

“At a time when the gap between rich and everyone else is growing wider, at a time when Wall Street and large financial institutions are exerting extraordinary power over the American and world economy, I applaud the pope for continuing to speak out on these enormously important issues,” Sanders said. “Pope Francis is reminding people of all walks of life, and all religious backgrounds, that we can and must do better.”

***

Albeit in somewhat passive terms, the Church had made its political and economic position clear: It rejected communism, and specifically its suppression of religion, in favor of the West and democracy—which were tied tightly to free-market economic principles. Many years later, the Polish Pope John Paul II was given credit for helping to undermine communist rule in his country, where Catholic churches provided a space for anti-communist artists and thinkers to hold discussions and distribute anti-regime writings.

In light of this long-standing tension between the Church and communism, Pope Francis’s aggressively anti-capitalist posture seems all the more remarkable. The bishop of Rome hasn’t just condemned what he sees as a failed free-market—he’a condemned the ethic and ideology that underlie free-market economies. “The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase,” Francis writes. “In the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.”

This is more than just a lecture about ethics; it’s a statement about who should control financial markets. At least right now, Francis says, the global economy needs more government control—an argument that would have been unthinkable for the pope just 50 years ago.

***

It’s interesting to think of Pope Francis’ assessment in light of Pope John Paul II’s past condemnation of communism and the “social assistance state.” In 1991, he observed…

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of state, the so-called ‘Welfare State.’ This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoke very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the ‘Social Assistance State.’ Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.

“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending, In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need.”

***

[W]hat I think is curious about this document is a longstanding peeve of mine. Ever since the Galileo incident, the Catholic Church has generally tried to be careful to get its science right before it opines on ethical matters related to science. It takes seriously questions of bioethics and has developed internal expertise on those issues. Yet when it comes to economics, the Church seems to have no qualms about opining on issues of economics without even the slightest idea of what it is talking about.

I mean, seriously?

“204. We can no longer trust in the unseen forces and the invisible hand of the market. Growth in justice requires more than economic growth, while presupposing such growth: it requires decisions, programmes, mechanisms and processes specifically geared to a better distribution of income, the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality. I am far from proposing an irresponsible populism, but the economy can no longer turn to remedies that are a new poison, such as attempting to increase profits by reducing the work force and thereby adding to the ranks of the excluded.”

Well darn that John Paul II for helping to bring freedom to Poland and getting rid of all those “decisions, programmes, mechanisms and processes” that were so beneficial to the Poles under Communism.

***

Capitalism does not breed poverty; it alleviates it. Compare the life expectancy of a medieval serf–rarely 30 years–to someone living in Western Europe today: Pope Francis, for example, who has reached the ripe old age of 76 thanks to modern medicine. He lived through the Cold War and its showcase of the obvious disparity between the United States, a land of economic “survival of the fittest,” according to Francis, and the Soviet Union. It was “a country with some of the most fertile land on the continent of Europe,” writes economist and TAS contributor Thomas Sowell, where the market principles that Pope Francis rergards suspiciously were abandoned, and as a result “at least 6 million people starved to death in the 1930s[.]”…

The pope, who recognizes in his exhortation the importance of economics, should keep in mind that the limited resources of the world could not possibly be allocated or “distributed” without some sort of system that allocates them efficiently, taking into account supply and demand, as well as scarcity and the difficulty of production and extraction: that is, prices. For someone who writes of others’ displaying “crude and naïve trust”, the pope sometimes betrays a rather naïve understanding of economics.

***

I don’t wish to stand in the way of people enjoying other people’s prejudices, but Francis’s hyperbolic rants about the role and allegedly dictatorial power of free markets are embarrassing in their wrongness. Cheering them on is like donating money to a Creationist Museum, only with more potential impact…

More people have escaped poverty the past 25 years than were alive on the planet in 1800. Their “means of escape” was largely the introduction of at least some “laws of competition” in endeavors that had long been the exclusive domain of authoritarian, monopolistic governments…

To look upon the miracles of this world and lament the lack of “means of escape” is to advertise your own ignorance. To call it a “tyranny” is to do violence to any meaningful sense of that important word (much like Francis’s predecessor did with his silly “dictatorship of relativism” crack). And to make such absolutist statements as “everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest” is to admit up front that you are not primarily interested in spreading truth, but rather in exciting popular passions. Which I suppose makes sense.

***

Troubling? Yes, and that’s probably too gentle a word. If this was just a discussion within the Roman Catholic church aimed solely at how its members should behave that, for the most part, would be up to them. But the pope’s words are rather more than that. In Francis, we see a charming and charismatic advocate (complete with large megaphone and the attention of a sizeable slice of the world) for economic policies of a type that have failed and failed and failed again, not least in the Argentina of his youth, the Argentina of Perón, the Argentina that he evidently still sees as some sort of model.

That’s not good news, nor is it likely to be the source of much joy.

***


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Dance Me To The End Of Love – Cohen

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnD-Di0UGyg

The Pope Smokes Dope

Mark1971 on November 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM

So when is the Catholic church going to help the poor and the needy by selling the hundreds of billions of dollars they have in real estate and the tens of billions of dollars they have in banks and in investments?… Lead by example Pope Francis…

mnjg

Well, the poor will always be with us, or something,lol.

xblade on November 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM

I have NOT read thru the whole thread, so I apologize if someone already said this:

Religious Persecution and Religious Wars in 5…4…3…

(very terrible sarc)

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 10:45 PM

Poverty alone doesn’t spawn violence. Poverty in the face of abundance spawns violence.
Aquateen Hungerforce on November 26, 2013 at 10:43 PM

What?

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 10:46 PM

Give a man a fish he eats for a day.

Teach a man to fish,, naaa. Nevermind.

Just give me all your fish.

wolly4321 on November 26, 2013 at 10:46 PM

Hey Scrumpy!!

CoffeeLover on November 26, 2013 at 10:46 PM

Oh well. He threw my church out almost five hundred years ago, and we haven’t really missed him.

But it’s pretty hilarious to see that they couldn’t even find a Pope that could be Roman Catholic. Pass the popcorn.

Darin on November 26, 2013 at 10:33 PM

Are you Lutheran?

OmahaConservative on November 26, 2013 at 10:47 PM

Someone should try this “unfettered capitalism” thing. It sounds awesome.

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 10:48 PM

Someone should try this “unfettered capitalism” thing. It sounds awesome.

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 10:48 PM

Yes… and spread it around generously, too.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 10:49 PM

CoffeeLover on November 26, 2013 at 10:46 PM

Hi CC!! Good to see you :)

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 10:49 PM

There have been better popes… And there have been far worse popes.

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 10:49 PM

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 10:45 PM

After making that lamentable and poor comment, I shall now go read ALL of page one… :(

but with a :)

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 10:51 PM

Nightwalk – Adam Hurst

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 10:51 PM

I guess as the resident right-wing pro-abortion “troll” I don’t need to say how happy I am about this turn of events. I always say socialism is the economy what pro-life is to the ecology.

thuja on November 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM

So…you’ve become “right-wing” (a term used mostly by leftists)?

How novel.

Does this mean that you’ve given up your love for dead babies?

Solaratov on November 26, 2013 at 10:51 PM

I would much rather still be a member of Benedict’s flock.
I’m not impressed by Francis. A somewhat ‘social-justice’ pope is NOT what the Church needs.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 9:55 PM

First, read Benedict’s Caritas en Veritae. That gave George Weigel hissy fits. And then read some of John XXIII’s stuff. Both his major encyclicals are very liberal. The only difference is that Francis is a very good writer and very readable. Catholic social justice teaching is very liberal. I had to take a class on this when I was in high school and I was surprised how liberal it was. This has been the case since Rerum Novarum in the 19th century.

I vote Republican and will continue doing so and I simply adore Francis. The Church and governments have different jobs in society. It is Francis’ job to stand up to the powerful and protect the weak. This is how it uses its moral authority. That idealism is different from the realism associated with actually governing a country or looking out for the greater good.

No it is not… He is a socialist from Argentina… The Catholic church in Latin America has a very dark history of supporting communists and socialists… Besides do not be shocked if he endorses abortion and gay marriage in the future…

mnjg on November 26, 2013 at 10:30 PM

Which Church are you talking about? Liberation Theology was banned by the main Church authorities in Argentina. Francis isn’t a fan because he doesn’t endorse violence and the association of with Marxist guerilla groups. The institutional Church in Argentina was very much associated with the rightwing military junta. Priests blessed the pilots who were dumping bodies of the disappeared into the Atlantic Ocean. The leaders of the military junta, especially Videla, were very religious and all went to Mass on Sunday. Videla basically didn’t go to war with Chile because JPII threatened him and he was that scared of JPII. The Junta was also associated with a fringe anti-Semitic group in the Church called the SSPX.

As for abortion and gay marriage, Francis isn’t changing Church teachings. In fact, he feels defense of the unborn is an important part of his teachings on the “disposable culture.” He is more tolerant of gay people, but isn’t going to be performing marriages in St. Peter’s.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

When you do your Christmas shopping, be sure to support Hobby Lobby: Freedom From Religion Foundation Ramps up Hobby Lobby Boycott

slickwillie2001 on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

Cat fight.

CWchangedhisNicagain on November 26, 2013 at 10:19 PM

Not that I expect any change from you, but in my ideal universe, people who feel the need to attack me at every point would have intelligent things to say.

thuja on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 10:51 PM

Good evening, Spritely One. :) Good to see you.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 10:53 PM

There have been better popes… And there have been far worse popes.

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 10:49 PM

No doubt, but the overall history of the Catholic church is very dark on so many levels… Luther was right and so was the Christian Orthodox church before him…

mnjg on November 26, 2013 at 10:53 PM

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 10:46 PM

Poverty is a relative term. We would consider the uncontacted tribes of the amazon to be living in poverty. Yet in their ecosystem they would not consider themselves to be living in poverty. There is no class war (and by this I mean actual war) among them. Their violence is caused by territorial disputes and superstitions. Not “poverty.”

Violence caused by poverty in the face of abundance is… erm… abundant in history. The French Revolution. The Bolshevik Revolution. General theft.

Does that help?

Aquateen Hungerforce on November 26, 2013 at 10:54 PM

Spiritus – Adam Hurst

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 10:55 PM

OK, as a Catholic, this is very depressing.

Look at the economic situation of the poor in this country compared to the poor in other countries. That is no accident.
And look at the economic plight, deprivation and despair of nearly everyone in the socialist/communist countries that have existed.
Look at what capitalistic countries have provided mankind in terms of discovery and modern advances.

Furthermore, should I look at someone who has more than myself and covet their goods, or should I be grateful that I have what I have and try to do better for myself materially, if that is important to me?

Who on earth cannot recognize the virtue of charity and the goodness of those that are charitable? Those who give to help the poor and downtrodden are praiseworthy. But being robbed and having the thief (government) give your money to the poor doesn’t yield grace to the robbed or dignity to the poor.

I just don’t get it.

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 10:55 PM

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 10:55 PM

Well said.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 10:56 PM

Not that I expect any change from you, but in my ideal universe, people who feel the need to attack me at every point would have intelligent things to say.

thuja on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

Your economic conservatism is great… Your social views are against the vast majority of conservatives but you are still one of us despite that. However you should not go to the extreme when it comes to abortion, it offends the vast majority of conservatives…

mnjg on November 26, 2013 at 10:57 PM

I guess as the resident right-wing pro-abortion “troll” I don’t need to say how happy I am about this turn of events. I always say socialism is the economy what pro-life is to the ecology.

thuja on November 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM

So…you’ve become “right-wing” (a term used mostly by leftists)?

How novel.

Does this mean that you’ve given up your love for dead babies?

Solaratov on November 26, 2013 at 10:51 PM

Well, I oppose government control of economic decision and I think peace through strength is the only possible path to peace. But I am still loving the dead fetuses. Death is a fact of this universe and it happens to all creatures.

thuja on November 26, 2013 at 10:57 PM

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy. (James Madison)

VorDaj on November 26, 2013 at 10:57 PM

if the Pope hates the Kochs he can’t be all bad!!!!

DBear on November 26, 2013 at 10:02 PM

And where did you read that the Pope said he “hates the Kochs”?

I doubt that the Pope indulges in hatred of any of his fellow man.

Solaratov on November 26, 2013 at 10:57 PM

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

/sigh

So it begins. Good night all, and good luck!

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 10:57 PM

Midnight Waltz- Hurst

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 10:59 PM

I vote Republican and will continue doing so and I simply adore Francis. The Church and governments have different jobs in society. It is Francis’ job to stand up to the powerful and protect the weak. This is how it uses its moral authority. That idealism is different from the realism associated with actually governing a country or looking out for the greater good.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

What good are you as a defender of capitalism if you ascribe the epithets of ideal, and moral to socialism and those of realistic and necessary evil to capitalism? You’re supposing a “moral-practical” dichotomy which is bound to fail, since the moral is the practical when you have the right morality. You seem to think that the church belongs in another sphere, but the church obviously doesn’t agree since it is opining on economics and not just speaking in the abstract. Don’t be surprised to see the Republican party turn to socialism when you yourself can’t even advocate for capitalism on the basis of it’s morality, but rather on the basis of it being a necessary evil borne out of a need to be practical. Necessary evils are not necessary, just evil.

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:00 PM

Good evening Jackie, always great to see you here!! :)

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:00 PM

Had only read headlines about the Pope and economics. Unfortunately it seems like he attended the Hugo Chavez School of Economics. Just shockingly uninformed.

El_Terrible on November 26, 2013 at 11:00 PM

As Laura Ingraham would say, Shut Up and Pray.

TXUS on November 26, 2013 at 11:00 PM

Who on earth cannot recognize the virtue of charity and the goodness of those that are charitable? Those who give to help the poor and downtrodden are praiseworthy. But being robbed and having the thief (government) give your money to the poor doesn’t yield grace to the robbed or dignity to the poor.

I just don’t get it.

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 10:55 PM

As a socialist, Pope Francis believes in having “Cesar” takes by force other people money so in his mind “Cesar” will distribute the money “fairly”… A very twisted and sick thinking based on “good intentions”…

mnjg on November 26, 2013 at 11:01 PM

Why is the Catholic Church putting out more effort to push illegal alien amnesty than to oppose abortion or than it did to oppose ObamaCare:
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/08/22/Catholic-Church-Plans-Massive-Push-for-Amnesty

Very disappointing.

bluegill on November 26, 2013 at 10:16 PM

The bishops launched quite a few lawsuits against the contraceptive mandate, which they oppose. However, the U.S. bishops aren’t against universal healthcare. They are actually very much for it. They would have actually supported Obamacare if there was no abortion funding and Obama didn’t make Catholic organizations pay for the Pill.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 11:01 PM

It is Francis’ job to stand up to the powerful and protect the weak.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

Oh, nonsense on stilts. Who gave him that “job”?

I don’t recall Christ saying anything like that to Peter.

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:01 PM

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:00 PM

BRAVO!! ^ 5

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:02 PM

Speaking of Leonard Cohen, maybe this is Closing Time for this age and the beginning of a new Dark Ages.

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 11:03 PM

It is Francis’ job to stand up to the powerful and protect the weak.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

This is what every socialist and communist says…

mnjg on November 26, 2013 at 11:04 PM

Give a man a fish he eats for a day.

Teach a man to fish,, naaa. Nevermind.

Just give me all your fish.

wolly4321 on November 26, 2013 at 10:46 PM

Build a muslim a fire and he will be warm for the night.

Set a muslim on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

VorDaj on November 26, 2013 at 11:04 PM

Thuja you’re plain disgusting. Quit swallowing men’s semen and you won’t hate yourself so much. Oh and quit transferring your self-hate to the most innocent humans. When you dehumanize yourself you then dehumanize others. Sad…gross.

CWchangedhisNicagain on November 26, 2013 at 11:05 PM

But I am still loving the dead fetuses.
thuja on November 26, 2013 at 10:57 PM

Oh and Fvck Off.

CWchangedhisNicagain on November 26, 2013 at 11:06 PM

It is Francis’ job to stand up to the powerful and protect the weak.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 10:52 PM

Then why does he turn a blind eye to Christians being oppressed and even murdered by muslims? He ain’t no Pope Urban II.

VorDaj on November 26, 2013 at 11:06 PM

So when is the Catholic Church going to help the poor and the needy by selling the hundreds of billions of dollars they have in real estate and the tens of billions of dollars they have in banks and in investments?… Lead by example Pope Francis…

mnjg

On this count, it’s hard for me to take the church seriously… I took my wife to Italy a few years back, and we toured the Vatican. Room after room of priceless art, and that’s just what the public gets to see on the four hour tour. If the church wanted to end poverty, they could do it next Saturday, just by having a yard sale…

PointnClick on November 26, 2013 at 11:07 PM

He sounds like he thinks the west is the same as his South American societies with their Latino/Indian hierarchies and Conquistador attitudes. Either that or he is a communist. Not good either way. Hopefully he will switch to appeasing Islam.

BL@KBIRD on November 26, 2013 at 11:08 PM

OK, as a Catholic, this is very depressing.

[...]

Who on earth cannot recognize the virtue of charity and the goodness of those that are charitable? Those who give to help the poor and downtrodden are praiseworthy. But being robbed and having the thief (government) give your money to the poor doesn’t yield grace to the robbed or dignity to the poor.

I just don’t get it.

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 10:55 PM

It’s very simple, let me explain it to you.

If you accept the premise that charity is inherently good, it is a moral duty. If it is a moral duty, then you are owed no thanks, since you simply fulfilled your duty. If it was your duty, that charity was owed to the recipient of said charity. If it was his due, it was always his – you simply had that wealth due to an imperfection in society’s economic system. At that point, that the recipient has to beg and wait for individuals to give them at their whim and sole discretion is demeaning and unjust. Since it is morally theirs, and the political system is supposed to make it possible to live a moral life, the political system is used to systematically fulfill the moral duty in question – redistribution of wealth. It is no longer theft – morally, the wealth isn’t yours, it’s your duty to give it anyway. And it is more egalitarian and charitable to systematically distribute the loot through the government.

This is the inevitable conclusion from the premise that charity is inherently good.

You shouldn’t be shocked that the church has reached this conclusion.

Here is a better take on charity:

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/charity.html

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:09 PM

Cat fight.

CWchangedhisNicagain on November 26, 2013 at 10:19 PM

…my Cats are neutered too…and they rarely fight!

KOOLAID2 on November 26, 2013 at 11:09 PM

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 10:56 PM

Thank you.
And thanks for bringing up Cohen.
I’m putting on one of his CDs.

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 11:10 PM

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 10:55 PM

Well said. I agree.

tngmv on November 26, 2013 at 11:11 PM

Don’t be surprised to see the Republican party turn to socialism….

ebrawer

Illiniditz is okay with that.

xblade on November 26, 2013 at 11:11 PM

If the church wanted to end poverty, they could do it next Saturday, just by having a yard sale…

PointnClick on November 26, 2013 at 11:07 PM

Agree…

mnjg on November 26, 2013 at 11:11 PM

Someone better send Pope Francis a copy of Milton Friedman’s videos.

Iblis on November 26, 2013 at 11:12 PM

I have 2 FB friends who are priests and I have a FB friend who is joining a Benedictine Monastery.
All 3 gentlemen are wonderful, knowledgeable, conservative Catholics. Me-Jewish born with a tendency toward playing ‘musical religions’-well I probably have no right to question the human head of my Church. Still…

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:12 PM

Yeah. Yeah. The rich are always evil because they’re rich but the poor are never evil because they’re lazy.

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:13 PM

Laschia ch’io pianga – Handel – Orlando ( Bartoli)

Yesterday… poor people longed for freedom. The freedom to work, to rise on their own merit and labor, to make a better life for themselves and their family.

Today, through the UN and now the Catholic church, and LEFTIST governments around the world, the mantra of the poor is … just give it to me. Provide for me. Give me what you have you have earned by your labor.

This is wrong. It’s wrong because it’s parasitical and it’s theft from someone who has labored for what they have, but it’s also wrong because it denies the person who demands the product of the labor of others the right to dignity and self respect.

Giving the poor everything drags them down, it doesn’t lift them up.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:14 PM

In the spirit of Thanksgiving,, I think I prefer this concept..

http://mith.umd.edu//eada/html/display.php?docs=bradford_history.xml.

They learned the hard way and it worked.

Rush’s Thanksgiving TRUTH is based on this. It’s what happened.

wolly4321 on November 26, 2013 at 11:14 PM

Explain to me how wealth causes poverty.

Explain to me how I have a right to money that someone else earned.

Explain to me how capitalism is forced on anyone.

Bat Chain Puller on November 26, 2013 at 10:08 PM

I think you’ll be waiting forever to get straight answers to your questions! :)

I’ve wanted to do this since I first saw your screenname:

Captain Beefheart and The Magic Band – “Bat Chain Puller”

Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:14 PM

justltl on November 26, 2013 at 11:10 PM

Cohen is always a pleasure. :) Welcome.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:15 PM

One size fits all declarations about what is good or bad doesn’t work. That’s my humble opinion. My life started out very poor but then I could always try to better myself. Always dream. The best thing a person can gain is education and the ability to see their personal gifts and how to use them in this world. No one talks or does much about those gifts or how to be the best person God intended you to be.

Herb on November 26, 2013 at 11:15 PM

’-well I probably have no right to question the human head of my Church. Still…
annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:12 PM

The Apostle John had something to say about that.

“[Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:16 PM

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:14 PM

May I post what you wrote-attributed ‘course- on my FB page?

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:16 PM

This is why I’m a protestant.

And why Ayn Rand was an atheist.

Caiwyn on November 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM

Requiem: Lacrimosa – Mozart

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnD-Di0UGyg

The Pope Smokes Dope

Mark1971 on November 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM

…good to see you bud!
(:->)

KOOLAID2 on November 26, 2013 at 11:18 PM

What good are you as a defender of capitalism if you ascribe the epithets of ideal, and moral to socialism and those of realistic and necessary evil to capitalism? You’re supposing a “moral-practical” dichotomy which is bound to fail, since the moral is the practical when you have the right morality. You seem to think that the church belongs in another sphere, but the church obviously doesn’t agree since it is opining on economics and not just speaking in the abstract. Don’t be surprised to see the Republican party turn to socialism when you yourself can’t even advocate for capitalism on the basis of it’s morality, but rather on the basis of it being a necessary evil borne out of a need to be practical. Necessary evils are not necessary, just evil.

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:00 PM

The buying of goods and services by people isn’t morally good or evil. It is a system, not a person, and cannot be good or evil. However, the system, like all systems, has winners and losers. These are people, not abstract thoughts and all societies advocate a safety net to help these people. Markets are regulated as well for this reason. After the economic collapse and bank meltdown in 2008, I hope that we all appreciate the need for some market regulations.

As for the Church and the State, they both perform different functions in society. I doubt that Pope Francis would be a good CEO; he is way too nice to be an effective businessman. His job is to be a moral authority/ conscience to point out when business is becoming too self-interested and hurting the poor and vulnerable. He is acting as an effective check that prevents society from descending into its darker angels. This doesn’t mean that he is going to dictate American tax rates and specific government policies, he is not.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 11:18 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:16 PM

Certainly, ALT. :) A pleasure. Good evening. Good to see you back. :)

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:18 PM

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:16 PM

I’m not exactly the poster-child for proper Catholicism. I tend to question things.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:18 PM

The Pope’s attack on capitalism reaffirms my status as a former Roman Catholic.

That church has been way too left for me since I was a very young adult, and they prove it over and over again.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:19 PM

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:14 PM

Well said, exactamente. Good evening, WW.

TXUS on November 26, 2013 at 11:21 PM

Caiwyn on November 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM

Ayn Rand was born Jewish.
If only the Protestants didn’t believe that non-Jesus accepting Jews go to Hell..
*Catholic Church doesn’t teach that-provided that the Jews actually believed in God.*

annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:22 PM

Is it any surprise in a world as corrupt as this, the crony elite aided by all seeing, all knowing technology that fascists of the past could only have dreamed of, that the new Pope is corrupt as well?

Did we ever find out why the old Pope suddenly up and quit? I didn’t follow the news very closely but the coverage/commentary reminded me a lot of when Chief Justice Roberts suddenly upped and changed his mind about Obamacare at the last minute, and how odd SCOTUS watchers and historians said that separate, yet eerily similar, incident was at the time. The Pope suddenly quitting for the first time ever elicited similar comments by experts.

While this is only a conspiracy theory at this point, in light of Snowden’s revelations about the totalitarian survailance state the ruling class has created, it’s easy to wonder if the government or some other criminal enterprises has dirt on them. For all we know the new Pope may have been hand picked by Obama under threat that otherwise he might release all the dirt that the NSA probably has on the Catholic church from recent years and/or perhaps on the last Pope.

FloatingRock on November 26, 2013 at 11:22 PM

Prelude no. 4 – Chopin (Tiempo)

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:22 PM

I’m not exactly the poster-child for proper Catholicism. I tend to question things.
annoyinglittletwerp on November 26, 2013 at 11:18 PM

What? “proper Catholicism” requires the suspension of honest skepticism?

It’s from the Bible that I LEARNED to question things.

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:22 PM

TXUS on November 26, 2013 at 11:21 PM

Good evening, TXUS. :) Thank you. Very good to see you.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:23 PM

Give a man a fish he eats for a day.

Teach a man to fish,, naaa. Nevermind.

Just give me all your fish.

wolly4321 on November 26, 2013 at 10:46 PM

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish and you lose a Democratic voter.

kcewa on November 26, 2013 at 11:24 PM

Soulshine – Govt Mule

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:24 PM

You had me up ’til now Francis. I’m done.

HellCat on November 26, 2013 at 11:25 PM

Prelude no. 4 – Chopin (Tiempo)

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:22 PM

NOW you’re talkin’

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:25 PM

Wow! I have never seen this level of similarity between the comment sections of HA and of the Daily Kos. Usually HA commentators, like conservatives in general, are much better informed and and thoughtful in their opinions than the libs.

neuquenguy on November 26, 2013 at 11:25 PM

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:25 PM

Good evening, Cleombrotus. :) I love Chopin.

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:26 PM

FloatingRock on November 26, 2013 at 11:22 PM

maybe zero has a copy of the birth certificate or college transcripts.

conspiracy theiry much?

Fred

jrsrigmvr on November 26, 2013 at 11:26 PM

Acts 5:29: But Peter and the Apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.”

Acts 10:25-26: When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”

Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:26 PM

The buying of goods and services by people isn’t morally good or evil. It is a system, not a person, and cannot be good or evil. However, the system, like all systems, has winners and losers. These are people, not abstract thoughts and all societies advocate a safety net to help these people. Markets are regulated as well for this reason. After the economic collapse and bank meltdown in 2008, I hope that we all appreciate the need for some market regulations.

As for the Church and the State, they both perform different functions in society. I doubt that Pope Francis would be a good CEO; he is way too nice to be an effective businessman. His job is to be a moral authority/ conscience to point out when business is becoming too self-interested and hurting the poor and vulnerable. He is acting as an effective check that prevents society from descending into its darker angels. This doesn’t mean that he is going to dictate American tax rates and specific government policies, he is not.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 11:18 PM

Political and economic systems are good or evil. The purpose of a political/economic system is to make it possible for individuals to life morally. For example, a political system that protects citizens from the initiation of force is good. A political system in which the state systematically initiates force on it’s citizens is evil.

The losers in capitalism – as opposed to – a mixed system – are those who are immoral and would have used the mixed system to take advantage of the fact that they could get the state to help them initiate force on others. Those people are – worse off – under capitalism, but they are “losers” under any system, from a moral sense.

The government controls are so many and so tremendous that when it ends up in a cascade failure like in 2008, we truly realize the result of not having real capitalism. And of course, the government reacted by issuing more controls and edicts. The next cascade failure will be even bigger.

Eventually, they will conclude that the mixed economy, which they call “capitalist”, is unworkable, and turn to outright socialism, and you will see the Pope’s encyclical put into practice here on this earth.

It will all be thanks to thinking like yours. This isn’t about abstractions. This will happen to real people indeed.

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:27 PM

jrsrigmvr on November 26, 2013 at 11:26 PM

Good evening, Fred. :) Good to see you. We don’t have any snow here.:(

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:27 PM

well I probably have no right to question the human head of my Church. Still… annoyinglittletwerp

I wouldn’t see why not.

Do Catholics agree with pelosi?

Why would your position in any Church not be equal?

Thiers hierarchy? .

That’s why I pray in the woods sitting on a log. On any day I choose.

A religion isn’t a gubmint, and a gubmint isn’t a religion.

wolly4321 on November 26, 2013 at 11:29 PM

[...]

This doesn’t mean that he is going to dictate American tax rates and specific government policies, he is not.

Illinidiva on November 26, 2013 at 11:18 PM

But he sure gave plenty of ‘ammo’ to the fake catholics in the democratic party to fuel their fever for socialism…

* spit *

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:30 PM

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:26 PM

Same here.

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:30 PM

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:30 PM

One evening we’ll have to post our favorites. :)

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:31 PM

Hmmm. This is the “Ave Maria” that our choir is currently mastering.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szjUHLnLHKM

onlineanalyst on November 26, 2013 at 11:32 PM

That’s why I pray in the woods sitting on a log. On any day I choose.
wolly4321 on November 26, 2013 at 11:29 PM

Absolutely, I do not need a Church to tell me what to do or what is right or wrong, according to their particular brand of faith…

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:32 PM

Beautifully Broken – Govt Mule

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:33 PM

Acts 5:29: But Peter and the Apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.”
Acts 10:25-26: When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I, too, am just a man.”
Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:26 PM

I’m pretty sure this wasn’t in Obama’s latest email to his followers.

happytobehere on November 26, 2013 at 11:33 PM

What? “proper Catholicism” requires the suspension of honest skepticism?

It’s from the Bible that I LEARNED to question things.

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:22 PM

How does a Catholic go about being honestly skeptical about the “divine” authority of the Pope and the Magisterium?

Anti-Control on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

maybe zero has a copy of the birth certificate or college transcripts.

conspiracy theiry much?

Fred

jrsrigmvr on November 26, 2013 at 11:26 PM

No, actually, I’m not into conspiracy theories at all and am not a birther, however in light of the facts presented to the world by Snowden, and considering the ways that such information can be abused to blackmail people, it would be stupid not to keep a weary eye out for the symptoms of such abuse. When strange things start happening, one at the SCOTUS and one in one of the most influential religious institutions start happening that are similar, even though the two bodies are supposedly entirely unrelated, it would be foolish not to be concerned about it, especially when the new Pope appears to be a communist not unlike Obama has written in his books that were his role models in his youth.

FloatingRock on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

thatsafactjack on November 26, 2013 at 11:27 PM

i thought you guys might get some snow. naturally we have some and it won’t leave until about May 15 or so. such is the life of a wyoming cowboy. been below zero every nite for the last week. have to leave the water running as always during the chilly months.

Fred

ps have a sweeet t-giving and enjoy your guests.

jrsrigmvr on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

ebrawer on November 26, 2013 at 11:27 PM

What ebrawer said!! Again a ^ 5

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

well I probably have no right to question the human head of my Church. Still… annoyinglittletwerp

Here’s what Peter had to say about it, twerp:

Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

Cleombrotus on November 26, 2013 at 11:35 PM

jrsrigmvr on November 26, 2013 at 11:34 PM

Evening fred!

Got a bit of snow, but all melted away now, was nice for a day tho!! :)

Scrumpy on November 26, 2013 at 11:35 PM

Let me go on the record to say that unregulated capitalism is just as much of a scourge on the population as communism or dictatorship.

Unregulated capitalism brought us slavery, child labor, and currently, the enabling of illegal immigration. Unregulated capitalism brought about the need for labor unions, OSHA, FDA, etc.

Properly regulated capitalism is a huge benefit to the general population. Dictatorships, communism, monarchies, socialism, etc, do not lend themselves to proper regulation, and therefore will never work. The only system that works is the one where each person is responsible for his own actions, and reaps the just consequences thereof.

jaime on November 26, 2013 at 11:36 PM

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