Quotes of the day

posted at 9:41 pm on November 26, 2013 by Allahpundit

Pope Francis attacked unfettered capitalism as “a new tyranny” and beseeched global leaders to fight poverty and growing inequality, in a document on Tuesday setting out a platform for his papacy and calling for a renewal of the Catholic Church…

In it, Francis went further than previous comments criticizing the global economic system, attacking the “idolatry of money”, and urged politicians to “attack the structural causes of inequality” and strive to provide work, healthcare and education to all citizens.

He also called on rich people to share their wealth. “Just as the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’ sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say ‘thou shalt not’ to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills,” Francis wrote in the document issued on Tuesday.

“How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses 2 points?”

***

Francis said trickle down policies have not been proven to work and they reflect a “naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power.”

“In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world,” Pope Francis wrote.

“This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system,” the 76-year-old pontiff added.

***

All this would warm the heart of even the most fervent atheist, except Francis has gone much further. It seems he wants to do more than simply stroke the brow of the weak. He is taking on the system that has made them weak and keeps them that way.

“My thoughts turn to all who are unemployed, often as a result of a self-centred mindset bent on profit at any cost,” he tweeted in May. A day earlier he denounced as “slave labour” the conditions endured by Bangladeshi workers killed in a building collapse. In September he said that God wanted men and women to be at the heart of the world and yet we live in a global economic order that worships “an idol called money”.

There is no denying the radicalism of this message, a frontal and sustained attack on what he calls “unbridled capitalism”, with its “throwaway” attitude to everything from unwanted food to unwanted old people. His enemies have certainly not missed it. If a man is to be judged by his opponents, note that this week Sarah Palin denounced him as “kind of liberal” while the free-market Institute of Economic Affairs has lamented that this pope lacks the “sophisticated” approach to such matters of his predecessors. Meanwhile, an Italian prosecutor has warned that Francis’s campaign against corruption could put him in the crosshairs of that country’s second most powerful institution: the mafia.

***

For the second time this year, U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., is aligning with Pope Francis on global economic views

Sanders says he continues to welcome Francis’ criticism of the global financial system, which both the senator and the pope say has plunged more of the world into poverty while benefiting the wealthy few.

“At a time when the gap between rich and everyone else is growing wider, at a time when Wall Street and large financial institutions are exerting extraordinary power over the American and world economy, I applaud the pope for continuing to speak out on these enormously important issues,” Sanders said. “Pope Francis is reminding people of all walks of life, and all religious backgrounds, that we can and must do better.”

***

Albeit in somewhat passive terms, the Church had made its political and economic position clear: It rejected communism, and specifically its suppression of religion, in favor of the West and democracy—which were tied tightly to free-market economic principles. Many years later, the Polish Pope John Paul II was given credit for helping to undermine communist rule in his country, where Catholic churches provided a space for anti-communist artists and thinkers to hold discussions and distribute anti-regime writings.

In light of this long-standing tension between the Church and communism, Pope Francis’s aggressively anti-capitalist posture seems all the more remarkable. The bishop of Rome hasn’t just condemned what he sees as a failed free-market—he’a condemned the ethic and ideology that underlie free-market economies. “The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase,” Francis writes. “In the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.”

This is more than just a lecture about ethics; it’s a statement about who should control financial markets. At least right now, Francis says, the global economy needs more government control—an argument that would have been unthinkable for the pope just 50 years ago.

***

It’s interesting to think of Pope Francis’ assessment in light of Pope John Paul II’s past condemnation of communism and the “social assistance state.” In 1991, he observed…

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of state, the so-called ‘Welfare State.’ This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoke very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the ‘Social Assistance State.’ Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.

“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending, In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need.”

***

[W]hat I think is curious about this document is a longstanding peeve of mine. Ever since the Galileo incident, the Catholic Church has generally tried to be careful to get its science right before it opines on ethical matters related to science. It takes seriously questions of bioethics and has developed internal expertise on those issues. Yet when it comes to economics, the Church seems to have no qualms about opining on issues of economics without even the slightest idea of what it is talking about.

I mean, seriously?

“204. We can no longer trust in the unseen forces and the invisible hand of the market. Growth in justice requires more than economic growth, while presupposing such growth: it requires decisions, programmes, mechanisms and processes specifically geared to a better distribution of income, the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality. I am far from proposing an irresponsible populism, but the economy can no longer turn to remedies that are a new poison, such as attempting to increase profits by reducing the work force and thereby adding to the ranks of the excluded.”

Well darn that John Paul II for helping to bring freedom to Poland and getting rid of all those “decisions, programmes, mechanisms and processes” that were so beneficial to the Poles under Communism.

***

Capitalism does not breed poverty; it alleviates it. Compare the life expectancy of a medieval serf–rarely 30 years–to someone living in Western Europe today: Pope Francis, for example, who has reached the ripe old age of 76 thanks to modern medicine. He lived through the Cold War and its showcase of the obvious disparity between the United States, a land of economic “survival of the fittest,” according to Francis, and the Soviet Union. It was “a country with some of the most fertile land on the continent of Europe,” writes economist and TAS contributor Thomas Sowell, where the market principles that Pope Francis rergards suspiciously were abandoned, and as a result “at least 6 million people starved to death in the 1930s[.]”…

The pope, who recognizes in his exhortation the importance of economics, should keep in mind that the limited resources of the world could not possibly be allocated or “distributed” without some sort of system that allocates them efficiently, taking into account supply and demand, as well as scarcity and the difficulty of production and extraction: that is, prices. For someone who writes of others’ displaying “crude and naïve trust”, the pope sometimes betrays a rather naïve understanding of economics.

***

I don’t wish to stand in the way of people enjoying other people’s prejudices, but Francis’s hyperbolic rants about the role and allegedly dictatorial power of free markets are embarrassing in their wrongness. Cheering them on is like donating money to a Creationist Museum, only with more potential impact…

More people have escaped poverty the past 25 years than were alive on the planet in 1800. Their “means of escape” was largely the introduction of at least some “laws of competition” in endeavors that had long been the exclusive domain of authoritarian, monopolistic governments…

To look upon the miracles of this world and lament the lack of “means of escape” is to advertise your own ignorance. To call it a “tyranny” is to do violence to any meaningful sense of that important word (much like Francis’s predecessor did with his silly “dictatorship of relativism” crack). And to make such absolutist statements as “everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest” is to admit up front that you are not primarily interested in spreading truth, but rather in exciting popular passions. Which I suppose makes sense.

***

Troubling? Yes, and that’s probably too gentle a word. If this was just a discussion within the Roman Catholic church aimed solely at how its members should behave that, for the most part, would be up to them. But the pope’s words are rather more than that. In Francis, we see a charming and charismatic advocate (complete with large megaphone and the attention of a sizeable slice of the world) for economic policies of a type that have failed and failed and failed again, not least in the Argentina of his youth, the Argentina of Perón, the Argentina that he evidently still sees as some sort of model.

That’s not good news, nor is it likely to be the source of much joy.

***


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“We”? You got a mouse in your pocket? I’m not the one having his arse handed to him in this thread sparky.

Akzed on November 27, 2013 at 12:47 PM

I (sparky) bow to your superior intellect and modesty.

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 1:05 PM

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 8:12 AM

Bravo.

AH_C on November 27, 2013 at 1:08 PM

But, justltl, the argument of Papal infallibility isn’t BIBLICAL. It’s a self-fulfilling rhetorical argument!

Cleombrotus on November 27, 2013 at 12:47 PM

I think that it’s that term “infallible” that’s problematic.
I’m pretty sure that it simply means that what the Pope states as doctrine is Church doctrine. I think that even a big pow-wow of bishops can ‘infallibly’ declare something to be doctrinal.
I can see where someone would be incredulous over a declaration of infallibility in the more common sense of “perfection”.
I don’t know this for sure, however. Mostly I’m just talking out of my a$$ on this kind of stuff.

One thing that I do know is that for the Pope to intentionally or unintentionally lend any credence to the utterly vile and evil systems of socialism/communism is disappointing to me and suggest maybe a lack of clear thinking on his part. It bothers me even more to think that he might actually believe in those systems.

Time will tell.

justltl on November 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM

One thing that I do know is that for the Pope to intentionally or unintentionally lend any credence to the utterly vile and evil systems of socialism/communism is disappointing to me and suggest maybe a lack of clear thinking on his part. It bothers me even more to think that he might actually believe in those systems.
Time will tell.
justltl on November 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM

See, that’s what I’m focusing on as well.

And it’s not limited to the Catholic Church. My Evangelical friends disappoint me as well with their lack of discernment. So many teachings today are simply being influenced by the current cultural trends rather than sound Biblical understanding. This Pope just sounds to me like he wants to be seen as relevant to the World rather than separate from it.

Cleombrotus on November 27, 2013 at 1:28 PM

One thing that I do know is that for the Pope to intentionally or unintentionally lend any credence to the utterly vile and evil systems of socialism/communism is disappointing to me and suggest maybe a lack of clear thinking on his part. Time will tell. justltl on November 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM

Huh.

APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION EVANGELII GAUDIUM OF THE HOLY FATHER FRANCIS TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY, CONSECRATED PERSONS AND THE LAY FAITHFUL ON THE PROCLAMATION OF THE GOSPEL IN TODAY’S WORLD Vatican.va November 24, 2013:

252. Our relationship with the followers of Islam has taken on great importance, since they are now significantly present in many traditionally Christian countries, where they can freely worship and become fully a part of society. We must never forget that they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day”

253. In order to sustain dialogue with Islam, suitable training is essential for all involved, not only so that they can be solidly and joyfully grounded in their own identity, but so that they can also acknowledge the values of others, appreciate the concerns underlying their demands and shed light on shared beliefs. We Christians should embrace with affection and respect Muslim immigrants to our countries in the same way that we hope and ask to be received and respected in countries of Islamic tradition. I ask and I humbly entreat those countries to grant Christians freedom to worship and to practice their faith, in light of the freedom which followers of Islam enjoy in Western countries! Faced with disconcerting episodes of violent fundamentalism, our respect for true followers of Islam should lead us to avoid hateful generalisations, for authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence.

Akzed on November 27, 2013 at 1:30 PM

This Pope just sounds to me like he wants to be seen as relevant to the World rather than separate from it.

Cleombrotus on November 27, 2013 at 1:28 PM

That may be true.
Or it’s his getting a little careless with the “simple” or “humble” schtick.
Whether he likes it or not, he’s the CEO of a big and influential organization.
I hope that he understands that whatever he says is going to be parsed and exploited by leftists and other vermin.
I don’t want him to be the Jimmy Carter of Catholicism.

justltl on November 27, 2013 at 1:36 PM

Quiz:
Karl Marx or Pope Francis?

whatcat on November 27, 2013 at 1:41 PM

I haven’t been impressed from this pope from the get go..but anyways, I’m not a catholic…I don’t look to a man for my spiritual guidance..I look straight to the source in Jesus..I don’t need a priest to confess my sins to, I go straight to the source..I don’t need to pray to Mary or do any other ritual..Mine is a relationship with Jesus, not a religion

sadsushi on November 27, 2013 at 1:45 PM

I think that it’s that term “infallible” that’s problematic.
I’m pretty sure that it simply means that what the Pope states as doctrine is Church doctrine. I think that even a big pow-wow of bishops can ‘infallibly’ declare something to be doctrinal.
I can see where someone would be incredulous over a declaration of infallibility in the more common sense of “perfection”.
I don’t know this for sure, however. Mostly I’m just talking out of my a$$ on this kind of stuff.

One thing that I do know is that for the Pope to intentionally or unintentionally lend any credence to the utterly vile and evil systems of socialism/communism is disappointing to me and suggest maybe a lack of clear thinking on his part. It bothers me even more to think that he might actually believe in those systems.

Time will tell.

justltl on November 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM

Encyclicals are different. These are issued as the Pope’s opinions and instructions along a pastoral teaching basis.

Some Popes are good at writing these…and some Popes aren’t particularly good at it.

Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body took 5 years to unfold as an influential teaching.

Pope Benedict XVI’s encyclicals were cohesive and interesting to read.

A good encyclical calls for contemplation…imho

This one by Pope Francis reads like a mess.

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 1:46 PM

Akzed on November 27, 2013 at 1:30 PM

Yeah, he was a bit more politic with that one. It seems like he was just saying, “Hey, we don’t persecute you people when you’re here, so how’s ’bout leaving Christians in your country alone?” and “True Islam is supposed to be peaceful, so ix-nay on the ihad-jay, mkay?”

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 1:46 PM

Yes, maybe it is just because he’s a noob. But we’ll see. Like I said, hopefully he’s not really Pope Jimmy the First.

justltl on November 27, 2013 at 2:04 PM

This Pope just sounds to me like he wants to be seen as relevant to the World rather than separate from it.

Cleombrotus on November 27, 2013 at 1:28 PM

That may be true.
Or it’s his getting a little careless with the “simple” or “humble” schtick.
Whether he likes it or not, he’s the CEO of a big and influential organization.
I hope that he understands that whatever he says is going to be parsed and exploited by leftists and other vermin.
I don’t want him to be the Jimmy Carter of Catholicism.

justltl on November 27, 2013 at 1:36 PM

agreed.

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 2:05 PM

Yes, maybe it is just because he’s a noob. But we’ll see. Like I said, hopefully he’s not really Pope Jimmy the First.

justltl on November 27, 2013 at 2:04 PM

HA!

A jesuit noob…and they are often a confused lot.

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 2:07 PM

The fact is Pope Francis, like JP II, has a long history of confronting communists head on. He had a target on his back during the Allende leftist era in Argentina. He’s no socialist or leftist. Then again he is no economic historian. He speaks of what we see and what we live. True, there is no “free market” in the developed world but as it’s spoken of by 95% of the people he’s speaking to and as he most likely thinks of it himself, he’s 100% correct.

Wealth and power obsessed thieves masquerading as corporate and financial executives are systematically raping the world for every G*% damned dollar they can get. They’ve bought and paid for nearly every politician and have cleaned out the pockets of nearly all the living and are now pillaging their unborn children.

If you don’t believe that you’re not paying attention.

rcl on November 27, 2013 at 2:22 PM

It’s a mess as far as Papal encyclicals go…

“203. The dignity of each human person and the pursuit of the common good are concerns which ought to shape all economic policies. At times, however, they seem to be a mere addendum imported from without in order to fill out a political discourse lacking in perspectives or plans for true and integral development. How many words prove irksome to this system! It is irksome when the question of ethics is raised, when global solidarity is invoked, when the distribution of goods is mentioned, when reference in made to protecting labour and defending the dignity of the powerless, when allusion is made to a God who demands a commitment to justice. At other times these issues are exploited by a rhetoric which cheapens them. Casual indifference in the face of such questions empties our lives and our words of all meaning. Business is a vocation, and a noble vocation, provided that those engaged in it see themselves challenged by a greater meaning in life; this will enable them truly to serve the common good by striving to increase the goods of this world and to make them more accessible to all.

204. We can no longer trust in the unseen forces and the invisible hand of the market. Growth in justice requires more than economic growth, while presupposing such growth: it requires decisions, programmes, mechanisms and processes specifically geared to a better distribution of income, the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality. I am far from proposing an irresponsible populism, but the economy can no longer turn to remedies that are a new poison, such as attempting to increase profits by reducing the work force and thereby adding to the ranks of the excluded.

205. I ask God to give us more politicians capable of sincere and effective dialogue aimed at healing the deepest roots – and not simply the appearances – of the evils in our world! Politics, though often denigrated, remains a lofty vocation and one of the highest forms of charity, inasmuch as it seeks the common good.[174] We need to be convinced that charity “is the principle not only of micro-relationships (with friends, with family members or within small groups) but also of macro-relationships (social, economic and political ones)”.[175] I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor! It is vital that government leaders and financial leaders take heed and broaden their horizons, working to ensure that all citizens have dignified work, education and healthcare. Why not turn to God and ask him to inspire their plans? I am firmly convinced that openness to the transcendent can bring about a new political and economic mindset which would help to break down the wall of separation between the economy and the common good of society.

206. Economy, as the very word indicates, should be the art of achieving a fitting management of our common home, which is the world as a whole. Each meaningful economic decision made in one part of the world has repercussions everywhere else; consequently, no government can act without regard for shared responsibility. Indeed, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find local solutions for enormous global problems which overwhelm local politics with difficulties to resolve. If we really want to achieve a healthy world economy, what is needed at this juncture of history is a more efficient way of interacting which, with due regard for the sovereignty of each nation, ensures the economic well-being of all countries, not just of a few.

207. Any Church community, if it thinks it can comfortably go its own way without creative concern and effective cooperation in helping the poor to live with dignity and reaching out to everyone, will also risk breaking down, however much it may talk about social issues or criticize governments. It will easily drift into a spiritual worldliness camouflaged by religious practices, unproductive meetings and empty talk.

208. If anyone feels offended by my words, I would respond that I speak them with affection and with the best of intentions, quite apart from any personal interest or political ideology. My words are not those of a foe or an opponent. I am interested only in helping those who are in thrall to an individualistic, indifferent and self-centred mentality to be freed from those unworthy chains and to attain a way of living and thinking which is more humane, noble and fruitful, and which will bring dignity to their presence on this earth….”

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html#The_economy_and_the_distribution_of_income

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 2:24 PM

“206. Economy, as the very word indicates, should be the art of achieving a fitting management of our common home, which is the world as a whole. Each meaningful economic decision made in one part of the world has repercussions everywhere else; consequently, no government can act without regard for shared responsibility. Indeed, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find local solutions for enormous global problems which overwhelm local politics with difficulties to resolve. If we really want to achieve a healthy world economy, what is needed at this juncture of history is a more efficient way of interacting which, with due regard for the sovereignty of each nation, ensures the economic well-being of all countries, not just of a few.

234. An innate tension also exists between globalization and localization. We need to pay attention to the global so as to avoid narrowness and banality. Yet we also need to look to the local, which keeps our feet on the ground. Together, the two prevent us from falling into one of two extremes. In the first, people get caught up in an abstract, globalized universe, falling into step behind everyone else, admiring the glitter of other people’s world, gaping and applauding at all the right times. At the other extreme, they turn into a museum of local folklore, a world apart, doomed to doing the same things over and over, and incapable of being challenged by novelty or appreciating the beauty which God bestows beyond their borders.

240. It is the responsibility of the State to safeguard and promote the common good of society.[188] Based on the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity, and fully committed to political dialogue and consensus building, it plays a fundamental role, one which cannot be delegated, in working for the integral development of all. This role, at present, calls for profound social humility…”

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium_en.html#The_economy_and_the_distribution_of_income

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Where in the world is unfettered capitalism occurring?

Flange on November 26, 2013 at 9:50 PM

Crony capitalism

Liberal billionaires hiring people outside the country for cheaper instead of hiring Americans

I’d say the porn industry is unfettered.

The news media in many respects.

Enron.

Martha Stewart.

Gatekeeper on November 27, 2013 at 2:45 PM

Where in the world is unfettered capitalism occurring?

Flange on November 26, 2013 at 9:50 PM

The contractor was likely too cheap to brace the wall…

“The charges are the first since excavator operator Sean Benschop was charged this summer with six counts of involuntary manslaughter for allegedly operating heavy equipment while high on marijuana and painkillers.

Williams said the collapse remains under investigation but called Campbell the person “at the center of culpability for the collapse.” He told reporters that Campbell ignored an architect’s warning the night before the June 5 collapse to brace the wall.

“The tragic and preventable collapse … robbed our city of six amazing Philadelphians that perished in the rubble and left an additional 13 wounded,” Williams said….”

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/philadelphia-contractor-charged-murder-fatal-building-collapse-article-1.1528430#ixzz2lsWnXkZh

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 3:10 PM

The contractor in Philadelphia was irresponsible and now will go on trial.

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 3:13 PM

I used the term encyclical in error…The document was an apostolic exhortation. It was written in response to the most recent meeting of the Synod of Bishops, which took place in October, 2012.

In other recent papal news…

Pope Francis calls a traditionalist writer who criticized him

“Vatican City, Nov 23, 2013 / 04:07 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Mario Palmaro, a traditionalist writer who co-authored an article critical of Pope Francis, received a phone call Nov.1 from the Pope himself, who knew that the writer is suffering from a grave illness.

Palmaro shared with CNA Nov. 22 that “Pope Francis wanted to act as a priest; yet he is a very special priest and bishop, by calling me and paying attention to my health condition.”

According to Palmaro, one of the features of the new pontificate is “the Pope’s phone calls to people, who luckily represent many other people who do not receive a papal phone call.”

“It is the kind of attention Pope Francis wants to show for sick people.”

“He just wanted to tell me that he is praying for me,” Palmaro explained of the Pope.

Palmaro recounted that the phone call lasted “just some minutes”, and they “only talked about a few things, because I was so moved from the phone call that I was not able to conduct so much conversation. Indeed, for a Catholic, getting a Pope’s phone call is unbelievable.”

Pope Francis called Palmaro’s home, and when his wife answered the phone, he could hear a “known voice asking her if it was my house and if she was my wife.”

After getting affirmative answers, Pope Francis continued: “Madam, I have know that your husband is very sick, and I would like to speak with him.”

During the conversation, Palmaro reminded the Pope that he had co-authored an article in which he criticized him.

The article was written together with Alessandro Gnocchi, and published in Italian newspaper “Il Foglio” Oct. 9 with the headline, “The reason why we don’t like this Pope.”

Gnocchi and Palmaro criticized passages in both the Pope’s major interviews, published in “La Repubblica” and in “La Civilta Cattolica.”

In the interview in “La Repubblica”, conducted by Eugenio Scalfari, Pope Francis was reported as saying that “everyone has is own idea of good and evil, and must choose to follow the good and combat the evil in the way he conceives them.”

Palmaro and Gnocchi quoted John Paul II’s encyclical Veritatis Splendor, and concluded that newspapers were honest in contrasting Pope Francis’ words with those of his predecessors, and in highlighting the contrasts in their headlines.

The two also focused on Pope Francis’ assertion about the Second Vatican Council in the La Civilta Cattolica interview, in which he said, “Vatican II was a re-reading of the Gospel in light of contemporary culture.”

Gnocchi and Palmaro, however, argued that “the world is not anymore shaped in light of the Gospel, while the Gospel is deformed in the light of the world.”

Pope Francis has met many of their criticisms with adjustments of his own.

In a Nov. 22 article at “L’Espresso”, Sandro Magister noticed that Pope Francis has recently both had the La Repubblica interview removed from the Vatican website, where it had been posted among his speeches, and has also modified his judgement of Vatican II, “distancing himself from the progressive currents that have applauded him until now.”

Palmaro maintained, however, that he cannot “state objectively that Pope Francis met our criticisms.”

He did add though, that Pope Francis has responded to the article he co-authored.

“We were aware, and we wanted, to open a debate, and even to pay the consequences of what we were going to write. After six months of the pontificate, in the midst of the huge consensus the Pope had, we found it impossible that no-one would bring up some questions.”

He added, “we did not want to judge the Pope as a human person. We distinguish the action from the person.”

When he got the phone call, Palmaro said he felt a “duty to tell the Pope that I criticized him. I did not think he would have read my articles, but I thought I was a coward in receiving such a great gift as a Pope’s phone call and not being sincere with him.”

Pope Francis responded saying that he “understood that the critics had been moved by love for the Pope.”

Palmaro concluded that “critics are useful, and the decisions taken during these last days confirmed me of the existence of the problems I highlighted together with my colleague Gnocchi…”

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-calls-a-traditionalist-writer-who-criticized-him/

workingclass artist on November 27, 2013 at 4:52 PM

Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 2:08 AM

Because you didn’t see this, here:

I have to come back on you because you consistently mis-inform your readers and I have to correct you, IF you would stop, then all this will go away, right? But I don’t think you will stop, you are getting much needed attention right now.

Keep it up eh, or quit it, your choice… :)

I apologised, I don’t want or need you to understand me, ever, you are not a friend to me and I am not one to you, why should I care what you think of me and why should you care what I think of you? In the big scheme of things, does that really matter? I am never gonna meet you and will never meet me…You and I will not see eye to eye on this arguement. So, lets be big grown-ups, shake cyber hands, and go on about our lives, political commenting, and just generally being nice and sharing nice things. I am asking you to please stop this nonsense. Accept my apology, and move on, I hope you can do that. We have to let bygones be that, bygones, it’s water under the bridge. You have a fixed opinion of me, same as I have of you, and no amount of psychoanalyzing on your part will change that viewpoint as I haven’t tried to change your viewpoint of me.

So, time to end this stupid ‘feud’ ok?! Good!!

God Bless you and everyone and have a Great Thanksgiving!!

Bye for now…

* swoosh *

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 2:43 PM (Posted elsewhere)…
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Oh wow! A_C JUST had to go on another rampage last night to somthing I said which was NOTHING like he said! He has a sordid twisted sick mind I tell you! Take a look:

Really too high pitched sounding for my taste… but if that’s what you like, whom am I to say otherwise! Rock On dude!
Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 1:47 AM
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Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 2:08 AM

You are very cute when you’re angry, and try to insult me so cheesily. :)

Maturity:

“I don’t like what you said, so, GFY!!! YOU ARE A BIGOTED JERKFACE WHO’S UNWORTHY OF ADULT CONSIDERATION!!! But, if you’ll forego defending your opinions as you see fit, and instead skip ahead to 100% agreement with me, no questions asked, there will be harmony between us. Oh, also, it’s not possible that I’ve misinterpreted or treated you unfairly, so STFU about that, you POMPOUS @SSHOLE!!!” ROFL

PS please, no one worry about my participation in any ongoing flamewar – I’m done here. If you don’t believe me now, you’ll just have to see… :)
Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 2:08 AM

Really A_C, did my comment really warrant all that?! You do think very highly of yourself don’t you, you silly little man. This is too sad and to sick to even bother with any longer, really A_C, grow up, if you can…

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 6:16 PM

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 6:16 PM

Praps he considered that a Chrst-like response ??
Or an example of HIS maturity ??
Hard to tell with that one.
Jus sayin.

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 7:03 PM

To be clear, I was referring to his 2:08am post.

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 7:08 PM

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 7:03 PM

To be clear, I was referring to his 2:08am post.

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 7:08 PM

Hi pambi!

I have since come to the conclusion that I am a lesser human being than he, I do not meet his standards for a christian, nor do I meet the standards he has set for me in regards to- oh so many things I can’t remember! Lol!

Apparently he can read much into what I say and then say it with such clarity as if he can read my mind! Amazing innit!

Mind you, if he doesn’t quit with this ‘war’ and he picks on me again, I will respond! Am I supposed to let him walk all over me?

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 7:49 PM

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 7:03 PM

What say you that I should do?

Am I wrong?

Is he right?

Be honest with me, I can take it :)

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 7:51 PM

I am not reading the posts either of you are directing my way, just to let you know. I’ve already tried the adult method of conflict resolution with you, and it didn’t work, so I’ve tuned you out – no need for me to beat my head against a wall, or add to thread clutter at HA!

No ill will from me…I sincerely hope you both have nice Thanksgivings :)

Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 8:00 PM

Anti-Control on November 27, 2013 at 8:00 PM

Ditto…

Hope you also have a nice Thanksgiving!

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 8:03 PM

Be honest with me, I can take it :)

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 7:51 PM

Oh, no, you’re not the one in the wrong, my friend.

But, shoot, he doesn’t even deserve any angst whatsover, regardless, that’s all.

I know it’s ridiculously unreal to absorb such taunting without a human reaction of some sort, but that’s always a part of us that Someone wants us to crucify. It’s not YOU he’s taunting, but Him in you, anyway.

He is obviously not willing to go through any of that .. it’s like Sonlight to a ‘vampire’, if you get my drift. LOL.

Finally being free of receiving insult, knowing it’s not aimed at ‘me, myself, and I’, but Him, is majorly freeing.
HE is the One he’s arguing with .. poorly, I’ll add. LOL.

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 8:21 PM

I wish you a blessed Thansgiving, too, AC.

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 8:23 PM

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 8:21 PM

Thank you, and I understand every point you made, it’s been awful really, but I will not ever let anyone tread on someone else when I can ‘voice’ my opinion…

I wish you and yours a Happy Thanksgiving wrought with many blessings!!

God Bless :)

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 8:40 PM

Scrumpy on November 27, 2013 at 8:40 PM

I completely understand.

Next time you spend with Him, plz don’t ask Him how much grief I gave Him over that particular concept, k ??
His answer could take up your whole day ! LOL.

Blessings.

pambi on November 27, 2013 at 8:53 PM

If you don’t believe that you’re not paying attention.
rcl on November 27, 2013 at 2:22 PM

Well you know what he could do? Give us the Christian take on the biblical view of economics. One needn’t be pope for any minimum of time to do that.

Crony capitalism is not “unfettered capitalism,” it’s giving our money to preferred recipients. Also known as theft. There are plenty of prohibitions of theft in the Bible and in Catholic theology for him to rely on.

Akzed on November 28, 2013 at 9:41 AM

And the Pope says abortion is … ? Oh forget it not high on the big guy’s priority.

Yet it would seem to us peasants that life starts in the womb not on the job, but maybe not if your a Pope!

rpupton on November 29, 2013 at 7:31 PM

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