Here we go: HHS announces pilot program in three states to encourage direct enrollment in ObamaCare plans via insurers

posted at 6:41 pm on November 22, 2013 by Allahpundit

In case there was any shred of doubt left that they’re deeply worried about Healthcare.gov breaking down under the crush of traffic next month, this ought to take care of it. First they moved the deadline for enrollment back, now they’re lining up insurance companies to start handling enrollments directly as December 23rd approaches.

Kitchen-sink time:

Another one of those options is allowing insurers to sign up consumers from start to finish —called, “direct enrollment.” If consumers choose to directly enroll in a Marketplace plan through an insurance company, they still will be able to compare products, and choose the one that offers them the best value for their dollar. Consumers will be informed that they can compare and select other plans on HealthCare.gov, and prior to buying a health plan, consumer’s application will be securely routed to HealthCare.gov to assess their eligibly for coverage along with potential discounts on premiums and cost sharing. Consumers must have their eligibility verified through the Data Services Hub – regardless of which path they use to enroll.

The option of direct enrollment has been there from the start, and although some issuers have already begun using this option, it has been limited by recent problems with the website. However, we recently announced that we have put in place fixes for more than two-thirds of the high priority bugs related to the website. For this reason, today, we are announcing that issuers in Florida, Texas, and Ohio are ready to participate in a pilot program using this direct enrollment feature, which will help inform our efforts to make this option work better for issuers and consumers in the coming weeks. Under the new pilot program being launched today, issuers utilizing direct enrollment in these three states will provide detailed feedback on their experiences to feed into our real-time work to make improvements for both consumers and issuers. This will help make direct enrollment a viable option for all issuers that wish to use this feature.

Insurers have been pressing them to do this for weeks. The big problem to date was that there were too many privacy concerns involved in giving insurance companies access to federal data hubs about Americans in the name of verifying eligibility. Sounds like they’ve solved that problem somehow — or maybe they just think they’ve solved it. Despite tech experts testifying before Congress that Healthcare.gov presents “critical” security risks, newly-legendary tech moron Kathleen Sebelius says she’s confident it’s fine. Could be they’re rolling this out as a pilot program precisely because they don’t know how secure it’ll be in practice. Good luck, America.

But never mind all that. Isn’t there a bigger problem? Here’s how the Times described the logistical challenges in its story about direct enrollment 10 days ago:

The main stumbling block for some consumers is the need to determine their eligibility for subsidies, and the amount. Insurance companies can now only estimate the amount for them. It is up the government to verify eligibility, using personal financial information from tax returns and the like.

“The question is, can they create a separate direct pathway so consumers can get that information on their subsidies?” asked one industry official. “If they don’t have Healthcare.gov up and running by the end of the month, direct enrollment is critical.”

Actually, insurance companies don’t need to estimate the subsidies an applicant is eligible for because … you can’t get subsidies if you don’t enroll through an exchange. Remember? Read this post to refresh your memory. Sebelius herself is sufficiently worried about people being unwittingly disqualified from subsidies by enrolling directly with insurers that she took care to say a few days ago that only people who know they earn too much income each year to qualify for help from Uncle Sam should consider going that route. And yet, the issue isn’t mentioned in today’s HHS press release. Could be, I guess, that the reference to “potential discounts on premiums and cost sharing” is a veiled reference to subsidies. If so, is HHS suggesting that … they will allow people to apply for subsidies even if they enroll outside an exchange? That would be the third highly illegal move Obama’s made in the name of doing triage on this policy car crash. First was delaying the employer mandate, second was his declaration that insurers can go ahead and un-cancel plans if they like, and now this. Maybe the press release is simply written ambiguously, and what they really have in mind is insurers gently informing lower-income people who qualify for subsidies that they’ll just have to be patient and wait until the website’s working. But either way, I want to know. Either they’re breaking the law or they’re encouraging a de facto two-tiered enrollment system for the lower and middle classes, respectively.

Exit question: Chin up, Democrats. What could go wrong?


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Two tiered system, huh?

Sooooo…about that spreading the wealth thing Bark told the plumber….wassup?

Bishop on November 22, 2013 at 6:43 PM

Either they’re breaking the law or they’re encouraging a de facto two-tiered enrollment system for the lower and middle classes, respectively.


Both
, you little cognitive dissonant Eeyore.

PolAgnostic on November 22, 2013 at 6:44 PM

So ummm that money you spent… you know the hundreds of billions…. yeah lets just forget that.

Funny how they want the insurance companies to bail them out like they want the Pubs to jump on the sinking ship to help fix their screw up.

watertown on November 22, 2013 at 6:47 PM

That would be the third highly illegal move Obama’s made in the name of doing triage on this policy car crash. First was delaying the employer mandate, second was his declaration that insurers can go ahead and un-cancel plans if they like, and now this.

Actually, it would be his fourth. Per the law, subsidies are only supposed to be available on STATE-run exchanges.

Resist We Much on November 22, 2013 at 6:48 PM

But either way, I want to know. Either they’re breaking the law or they’re encouraging a de facto two-tiered enrollment system for the lower and middle classes, respectively.

So do I. I also want to know if the congress is prepared to do anything at all about an imperial president legislating from his desk for convenience sake, repeatedly shattering separation of powers. If not… what’s the point of going to the trouble and expense of maintaining a supine congress?

thatsafactjack on November 22, 2013 at 6:48 PM

Here we go: HHS announces pilot program in three states to encourage direct enrollment in ObamaCare plans via insurers

But then how are you going to be able to compare all the super awesome choices and come up with the right one out of like four (if you are lucky) that pisses you off the least?

Happy Nomad on November 22, 2013 at 6:49 PM

So if the President does something highly illegal and no one protests, is it still illegal, or have all laws now been effectively negated?

UnderstandingisPower on November 22, 2013 at 6:50 PM

I was at yesterday’s off-the-record session with #PresidentObama. Can’t report it, but can say: he’s all in on ACA.

Boy those off-the-record sessions come in handy as hell when you’re the most transparent administration, evah.

antipc on November 22, 2013 at 6:51 PM

That would be the third highly illegal move Obama’s made in the name of doing triage on this policy car crash.

Since when is the ‘law of the land’ of any concern to King Barack The Magnificent?

GarandFan on November 22, 2013 at 6:54 PM

Howard Fineman ✔ @howardfineman

I was at yesterday’s off-the-record session with #PresidentObama. Can’t report it, but can say: he’s all in on ACA.

Next time you see him Howard ask him why he stopped calling it obozocare?

Flange on November 22, 2013 at 6:54 PM

Unimpeachable.
Good job Republicans. Good thing you are scared to death of impeaching anyone.

astonerii on November 22, 2013 at 7:01 PM

The big problem to date was that there were too many privacy concerns involved in giving insurance companies access to federal data hubs about Americans in the name of verifying eligibility. Sounds like they’ve solved that problem somehow — or maybe they just think they’ve solved it.

Or maybe…
THEY’VE JUST DECIDED TO IGNORE IT.

How great will it be when clerks at every insurance company in the country will have access to your tax returns?

Don’t EVER assume this clown college has done anything correctly.

Cicero43 on November 22, 2013 at 7:05 PM

Howard Fineman ✔ @howardfineman

I was at yesterday’s off-the-record session with #PresidentObama. Can’t report it, but can say: he’s all in on ACA.

Next time you see him Howard ask him why he stopped calling it obozocare?

Flange on November 22, 2013 at 6:54 PM

Ask him why he thought the world was just waiting for the news that He, Howard Fineman (big important guy), was hangin with the prez.

kcewa on November 22, 2013 at 7:06 PM

Howard Fineman ✔ @howardfineman

I was at yesterday’s off-the-record session with #PresidentObama. Can’t report it, but can say: he’s all in on ACA.

Quick question for Mr. Fineman.

RINO in Name Only on November 22, 2013 at 7:07 PM

Lawlessness.

forest on November 22, 2013 at 7:08 PM

So if the President does something highly illegal and no one protests, is it still illegal, or have all laws now been effectively negated?

UnderstandingisPower on November 22, 2013 at 6:50 PM

Why must you be such a racist? I mean… really.

/

Key West Reader on November 22, 2013 at 7:09 PM

securely routed to HealthCare.gov to assess their eligibly for coverage along with potential discounts on premiums and cost sharing

Securely?
I about choked when I read that. Who in their right mind has confidence enough in this program to do that? It’s hilarious that they’re delusional enough to think anyone trusts the “security” of this fiasco.

scalleywag on November 22, 2013 at 7:09 PM

How great will it be when clerks at every insurance company in the country will have access to your tax returns?

Don’t EVER assume this clown college has done anything correctly.

Cicero43 on November 22, 2013 at 7:05 PM

I’m assuming that Cigna will soon be sending me letters advertising their new tax services division.

kcewa on November 22, 2013 at 7:10 PM

How do we complain the the GOP that we feel helpless as citizens, and that they are the only ones who can go to court to stop these liars and thieves?

HiJack on November 22, 2013 at 7:11 PM

I smell a reciprocal bailout.

Obama will bail out the evil insurers and the insurers will bail out the evil Obama.

/Simple, actually… if you are a Marxist

Key West Reader on November 22, 2013 at 7:11 PM

I’m assuming that Cigna will soon be sending me letters advertising their new tax services division.

kcewa on November 22, 2013 at 7:10 PM

Exactly. Obama just federalized the insurers. Totally legal. Right?

Key West Reader on November 22, 2013 at 7:12 PM

Ask him why he thought the world was just waiting for the news that He, Howard Fineman (big important guy), was hangin with the prez.

kcewa on November 22, 2013 at 7:06 PM

OK, Hey Howard, why did you think the world was waiting to hear that you, big important guy, was hangin’ with obozo, but can’t report it?

Flange on November 22, 2013 at 7:13 PM

Obamacare Exchange forces man with a $5 million home that’s paid for and a wife with a start up business onto MEDICAID because, since he’s retired, he has ‘no income’.

Don’t miss the part of the article addressing the already abysmal care provided by Medicaid… a person is TWICE as likely to DIE on Medicaid as private insurance, stay in the hospital longer, and cost more to treat… and is only going to get worse due to more enrollees on the program and increasing costs.

thatsafactjack on November 22, 2013 at 7:15 PM

But I thought it was the eeeevvvvviiiiillll insurance companies that were to blame for everything?

Don’t these companies know that the only thing Obama is good at is backstabbing people?

ajacksonian on November 22, 2013 at 7:15 PM

But, isn’t it the back-office coordination with all of the various govt data centers that is the roadblock, and the security risk?
The insurance companies are still going to have to access those data centers to ascertain the eligibility and subsidy status of every applicant, and that is where the problem lies.
They’ll be lucky to have this thing working by Labor Day.

Another Drew on November 22, 2013 at 7:16 PM

So, it’s only cost us $6ooM or so to learn that the government cannot run healthcare enrollment, so how much does it cost us in dollars and lives before we decide that government is not competent to manage the details of which treatments you are able to get.

Nomas on November 22, 2013 at 7:17 PM

“Ladies and gentlemen take my advise.” This is what I was once told by a Polish Lady from Chicago when she didn’t want to argues about something. It fits here very well.

The only Absolute in “Healthcare.gov” is all the Vodka they are drinking. The TOP that is TOP Government people are just making this all up as they go. They are panic stricken in the worse way. The costs are going to be cataclysmic and in the Trillions of Dollars. The out look for Democrat elections not only in 2014 but also in 2016 is very dismal. The civil rights gains of the 1960, 1970 and 1980 are looking to be set back 50 years. It is the Governments treatment of “We The People” who are all truly Created Equal as “Little Children that know nothing” that are really causing the problems.

Last point I have a Mac PPC. It is about 5 years old. The Healthcare.gov site has had some corrections. I now have to go out and by a new computer. My 5 year old Mac no longer will work on the Government Site because it is Intel chip specific.

jpcpt03 on November 22, 2013 at 7:17 PM

OK, Hey Howard, why did you think the world was waiting to hear that you, big important guy, was hangin’ with obozo, but can’t report it?

Flange on November 22, 2013 at 7:13 PM

Like my little girl running to tell me “I know a secret but I can’t tell anyone.”

kcewa on November 22, 2013 at 7:19 PM

using this direct enrollment feature

It’s a feature, not a bug!

notropis on November 22, 2013 at 7:23 PM

Actually, it would be his fourth. Per the law, subsidies are only supposed to be available on STATE-run exchanges.

Resist We Much on November 22, 2013 at 6:48 PM

That case has yet to be settled in federal court. Assuming that the IRS loses in it’s attempt to write new tax laws, the insurance companies will have no reason to interface with the federal exchange. Texas, Florida, and Ohio are the three biggest states that are waiting on this decision.

The real question is: Why is Oregon NOT one of the pilot program states? They do not have an exchange of any kind!

Freddy on November 22, 2013 at 7:24 PM

The option of direct enrollment has been there from the start, and although some issuers have already begun using this option, it has been limited by recent problems with the website. However, we recently announced that we have put in place fixes for more than two-thirds of the high priority bugs related to the website. For this reason, today, we are announcing that issuers in Florida, Texas, and Ohio are ready to participate in a pilot program using this direct enrollment feature,

That sounds incredibly secure. What could go wrong?

Could be they’re rolling this out as a pilot program precisely because they don’t know how secure it’ll be in practice. Good luck, America Florida, Texas, and Ohio.

Always the beta-male drama queen, blowing everything totally out of proportion. For more than a hundred years after our country’s founding, we didn’t even have more than 47 states. You know the drill – Omelets, Eggs, etc…

RINO in Name Only on November 22, 2013 at 7:28 PM

Obama/Sebelius: Those evil no-good $%&@ insurance companies cancelled your health insurance. So just log on to Healthcare.gov and get yourself a great subsidy from us on your new insurance.

Say what? Healthcare.gov doesn’t work? Just log onto one of those great websites from the insurance companies and buy your Gold insurance plan like a TV from Ebay. Maybe by November 30 December 15 December 23 we’ll tell you about our great subsidy. Or maybe not. What difference does it make?

Steve Z on November 22, 2013 at 7:28 PM

Last point I have a Mac PPC. It is about 5 years old. The Healthcare.gov site has had some corrections. I now have to go out and by a new computer. My 5 year old Mac no longer will work on the Government Site because it is Intel chip specific.

jpcpt03 on November 22, 2013 at 7:17 PM

First: Sign up for lifelock
Second: Call an Obamacare navigator

This way you will be all set when your ssn, bank accounts, etc are distributed to everyone on the planet!

Freddy on November 22, 2013 at 7:29 PM

so barry and the left have to rely on the intelligence of the insurance companies to save their a**

there are two type of socialisms. The first starts in countries without any development to begin with…and well, goes down hill from there. The second is where people like barky get to commandeer 100 years of development of intellectual resources. Socialists are never grateful, they think they are entitled. The enormous intellectual and human capital will buttress this county for a while…but eventually the barky tradition ends badly

r keller on November 22, 2013 at 7:29 PM

Can’t report it, but can say: he’s all in on ACA obama’care’.

Howard, you swine.

Schadenfreude on November 22, 2013 at 7:30 PM

However, we recently announced that we have put in place fixes for more than two-thirds of the high priority bugs related to the website.

Lol.

cs89 on November 22, 2013 at 7:34 PM

That would be the third highly illegal move Obama’s made in the name of doing triage on this policy car crash. First was delaying the employer mandate, second was his declaration that insurers can go ahead and un-cancel plans if they like, and now this.

Actually, it would be his fourth. Per the law, subsidies are only supposed to be available on STATE-run exchanges.

Resist We Much on November 22, 2013 at 6:48 PM

It’s easy to lose count.

Hey, anybody remember when people were upset because Congress would “deem” laws passed instead of voting on them?

That was nothing. Obama now just deems the law to say whatever he wants it to say.

Even if the Republicans take back the Senate in 2014, I don’t think the damage to the rule of law can be repaired.

Impeachment is more than a hoped-for shortcut to get rid of a bad president, now.

It’s a moral necessity to prevent a future president from usurping power. If the president isn’t bound by the rule of law, then we don’t have the rule of law at all.

There Goes the Neighborhood on November 22, 2013 at 7:35 PM

Howard Pigdog Fineman I was at yesterday’s off-the-record session with #PresidentObama. Can’t report it, but can say: he’s all in on ACA.

Well at least some press members know what’s up, even if they are sworn to secrecy.

“I can’t tell you what Barry told me, but as a reporter I can share this with you: he’s awesome.”

Akzed on November 22, 2013 at 7:36 PM

Howard Fineman ✔ @howardfineman

when Juan Williams was on the Five yesterday he tried to gussy up Howard’s cred by saying he used to be at Newsweek

(btw, Howard, Juan scooped you by a day)

these leftist are so pathetic…they think they are actually credible pundits rather than left wing shills for barry. Clue: Ed Schultz. That is who these guys are.

But, regrettably, the second tier of the shills (the MSM) get their lead from the leftist like MoJo, et al. so barry is sending a signal to the MSM to chill. He’s standing tall, and as soon as this little technical website stuff is fixed, utopia is around the corner

r keller on November 22, 2013 at 7:39 PM

Why must you be such a racist? I mean… really.

Key West Reader on November 22, 2013 at 7:09 PM

KWR, you missed the most important thing.

Why must you be such a racist? Nothing will change until you die.

Just giving full context in the week that a marginally educated talk show diva got the Presidential Medal of Freedom from a beneficiary of her political contributions. It used to be we gave such awards to people responsible for saving thousands of Jews from the gas chambers of Auschwitz. These days the medal is a political spoil to reward key contributors.

Happy Nomad on November 22, 2013 at 7:41 PM

Is anybody in DC going to stand up and stop these people? Not with a speech, not with a Facebook post – with real action.

Somebody, anybody stand up and fight.

gophergirl on November 22, 2013 at 7:41 PM

Seriously who would trust their personal data to a website like healthcare.gov or the back end data hubs?

Heck I would actually trust my personal info going to the back end via a insurance companies website than thru healthcare.gov

I would rather pay the penalty rather than go through the application process it is such a CharlieFoxtrot.

F15Mech on November 22, 2013 at 7:42 PM

Obama on 1 October:

It’s been a long time coming. But today Americans who have been forced to go without insurance can now visit healthcare.gov and enroll in affordable new plans that offer quality coverage. That starts today.

And people will have six months to sign up. So over the next six months, people are going to have the opportunity, many — in many cases for the first time in their lives — to get affordable coverage that they desperately need. Now of course, if you’re one of the 85 percent of Americans who already have health insurance, you don’t need to do a thing. You’re already benefiting from new benefits and protections that have been in place for some time under this law. But for the 15 percent of Americans who don’t have health insurance, this opportunity is life- changing.

Obama on 21 October:

So the fact is the product of the Affordable Care Act for people without health insurance is quality health insurance that’s affordable. And that product is working. It’s really good. And it turns out there’s a massive demand for it. So far, the national website, HealthCare.gov, has been visited nearly 20 million times. Twenty million times. (Applause.) And there’s great demand at the state level as well, because there are a bunch of states that are running their own marketplaces.

We know that nearly one-third of the people applying in Connecticut and Maryland, for example, are under 35 years old. They understand that they can get a good deal at low costs, have the security of health care, and this is not just for old folks like me — that everybody needs good quality health insurance. And all told, more than half a million consumers across the country have successfully submitted applications through federal and state marketplaces. And many of those applications aren’t just for individuals, it’s for their entire families. So even more people are already looking to potentially take advantage of the high quality, affordable insurance that is provided through the Affordable Care Act.

So let me just recap here. The product is good. The health insurance that’s being provided is good. It’s high quality and it’s affordable. People can save money, significant money, by getting insurance that’s being provided through these marketplaces. And we know that the demand is there. People are rushing to see what’s available. And those who have already had a chance to enroll are thrilled with the result. Every day, people who were stuck with sky-high premiums because of preexisting conditions are getting affordable insurance for the first time, or finding, like Janice did, that they’re saving a lot of money. Every day, women are finally buying coverage that doesn’t charge them higher premiums than men for the same care. (Applause.) Every day, people are discovering that new health insurance plans have to cover maternity care, mental health care, free preventive care.

So is there any doubt why the lazy stupid rat-eared bastard is still selling Obamacare? The left have doubled down on lies to the point that they have to pretend everything is on track, under budget, and delivering as promised.

Happy Nomad on November 22, 2013 at 7:53 PM

If the GOP leadership had any sense…yeah, I know… they would be pitching yesterday’s senate power grab by Dingy Harry and Chuck the Schmuck Schumer as maneuvers to force Obamacare slavery down the throats of The People regardless of what The People would want.

viking01 on November 22, 2013 at 7:57 PM

Seriously who would trust their personal data to a website like healthcare.gov or the back end data hubs?

F15Mech on November 22, 2013 at 7:42 PM

What did P.T Barnum say about suckers? There are about 76K more in the world since Obamacare went online.

Happy Nomad on November 22, 2013 at 7:59 PM

Bishop:
 
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/smith-wesson-m-p-shieldtm-9mm.html
 
$360 this weekend.

rogerb on November 22, 2013 at 8:03 PM

If the GOP leadership had any sense…yeah, I know… they would be pitching yesterday’s senate power grab by Dingy Harry and Chuck the Schmuck Schumer as maneuvers to force Obamacare slavery down the throats of The People regardless of what The People would want.

viking01 on November 22, 2013 at 7:57 PM

That isn’t even true. Not the forcing Obamacare slavery on Americans part but the idea that it has anything to do with yesterday’s power grab.

No, Ted Cruz and a few allies made an issue of this and they were shouted down by the surrender weasels including a couple of HA moderators who made moronic comments about caving to fight another day. Well, isn’t this another day? Where are all the promises to do something about Obamacare?

Face it the surrender weasels are cowards unwilling to fight. Ever. If Ed Morrissey ever comes out with an issue he’s passionate enough to put up a fight about, I will be shocked. Go along to get along isn’t just a DC thing.

Happy Nomad on November 22, 2013 at 8:06 PM

Happy Nomad on November 22, 2013 at 8:06 PM

It doesn’t matter if “it’s true.” Throw the Dimocrat game back at them.

The lo-fo’s getting a big unexpected bill from O’Commiecare will be displeased the Fuehrer hasn’t delivered Poland as promised. We are past expecting Obama voters to be informed so may as well deflect that ignorance against Barky.

viking01 on November 22, 2013 at 8:13 PM

Doesn’t this defeat the whole Travelocity/Amazon/Kayak benefit of Obamacare? People aren’t going to be able to compare prices so they’re plans are going to be more expensive. BCBS isn’t going to be quoting Kaiser’s rates. One would have to know every insurer in the state exchange and compare prices from each of their sites.

blammm on November 22, 2013 at 8:35 PM

Is there anyone who is going to sign up for this crap that has anything to lose if their info gets hacked? If you can’t get a subsidy, why go to that site?

Cindy Munford on November 22, 2013 at 8:38 PM

It used to be we gave such awards to people responsible for saving thousands of Jews from the gas chambers of Auschwitz. These days the medal is a political spoil to reward key contributors.

Happy Nomad on November 22, 2013 at 7:41 PM

It used to be we gave Nobel Peace Prizes to people who actually, you know, did something that made the world a more peaceful place.

Fraud is as fraud does.

AesopFan on November 22, 2013 at 11:03 PM

Is there anyone who is going to sign up for this crap that has anything to lose if their info gets hacked? If you can’t get a subsidy, why go to that site?

Cindy Munford on November 22, 2013 at 8:38 PM

In fact if you even appear to qualify for a small subsidy, it might be wise in the long-term to stay with the private company and avoid the risk of identity theft.

I can’t confirm this, but I also suspect that if you buy your health insurance from (example) United directly, you will end up with a better network than if you work through healthcare.gov and get a subsidy even if you still end up with United.

slickwillie2001 on November 22, 2013 at 11:30 PM

Help me out here. What, exactly, is a journalist’s rationale for attending an “off-the-record” meeting? If a journalist’s purpose is to report news and events, then what purpose is served by attending an event which can’t be reported? Why would a journalist, a supposedly objective observer and reporter, agree to attend such an event? It seems to me there’s no gain, only another loss of credibility.

Count Mahdrof on November 23, 2013 at 7:57 AM

Help me out here. What, exactly, is a journalist’s rationale for attending an “off-the-record” meeting?

Count Mahdrof on November 23, 2013 at 7:57 AM

They’re not there in their professional capacity. Whatever happens in the White House, stays in the White House. ;)

blammm on November 23, 2013 at 11:49 AM

Can these insurance companies really be that stupid to support their own death at the hands of Obowmacare?

dthorny on November 23, 2013 at 1:43 PM

Doesn’t matter – won’t work. What state exchange has worked? Nada!

Let these exchanges be the gift that keeps on giving. Dumb-de-dumb-dumb.

MN J on November 23, 2013 at 7:12 PM

Isn’t it kinda curious that the 3 states in the pilot program consist of 2 swing states and one that the Dems are trying to turn blue?

bigugly on November 24, 2013 at 1:06 AM