Video: I have “serious doubts” that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, says … the U.S. secretary of state

posted at 4:01 pm on November 8, 2013 by Allahpundit

I did not expect to find a conspiracy theorist within a presidential cabinet, but if you’re a liberal Democrat from Massachusetts with the initials “JFK,” maybe you’re obliged to believe that the truth behind Kennedy’s murder must be more epic than a lone nut picking him off from a window. In fairness to Kerry, this is the mildest, most benign theory of a “conspiracy” about the assassination that one can hold. He’s not claiming Oswald was a patsy; he’s not claiming there were other shooters; he’s certainly not claiming that American agents were involved. The conspiracy he’s talking about is the possibility of clandestine Russian/Cuban support for Oswald — and even there he’s cagey, mumbling about Oswald maybe having been “inspired” by someone or something at some point. Obvious question: If the Soviets were going to risk a world war by killing the president, wouldn’t they have preferred to recruit an American assassin who, er, hadn’t defected to the USSR a few years before? That’s an invitation for people to blame them, whether they had anything to do with it or not. And if they did recruit Oswald, why would they have authorized him to risk capture or death before the attempt could occur by having him try to kill Gen. Walker earlier that year? Spitballing theories about the Kennedy assassination is a national pastime, but maybe you don’t get to participate in that pastime if you’re … the chief diplomat of the United States, tasked with dealing with Russia and Cuba.

On the bright side, Kerry’s theory is admirably free of the Orwellian tendency among some on the left to blame the right for JFK’s death. And he is, to be sure, very much within the mainstream in doubting “the official story.”

ga

As of 2003, 68 percent of Americans believed there was a cover-up to hide the truth of the assassination. The public’s gotten more credulous over the last decade, but only relatively: Today, 59 percent say they believe there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy versus 75 percent a decade ago. With Boomers dying off in greater numbers, figure it’ll finally drop below 50 circa 2025.

In honor of a slow news Friday afternoon, feel free to use this thread to hash out all your JFK-assassination disagreements. If it finishes with fewer than a thousand comments, I’ll regard it as a personal defeat. Click the image to watch.

jk2


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Comment pages: 1 2

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:18 PM

Because I have nearly hit idiot conspiracy nutballs arguing in the middle of Elm Street about the trees.

Pssst, even in Texas, Live Oaks loose their leaves for the winter.

What’ the matter? This pic doesn’t back up your tree theory?

cozmo on November 8, 2013 at 5:25 PM

If only that rifle hadn’t been adorned with a bayonet lug. If only, JFK would still be alive today.

Bishop on November 8, 2013 at 5:25 PM

If you’ve stood there, where the car was, and looked up at the window there was no need to shoot through any branches.

Who was shooting at the bldg from a moving Presidential limo?

The shot is only abot 80 yards

“175 feet (53 m) to 265 feet (81 m)” (FBI for the Warrem Commission.)

I had the same USMC rifle training Oswald did.
M240H on November 8, 2013 at 5:16 PM

So your fellow jarheads joked about your habit of getting Naggie’s Drawers, too?

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:28 PM

Who was shooting at the bldg from a moving Presidential limo?

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:28 PM

Colonel Mustard?

cozmo on November 8, 2013 at 5:30 PM

The were fully grown.

But now that you mention it…
1963

2003

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:18 PM

Looks like an easy unobstructed view in 1963 and now.

The Notorious G.O.P on November 8, 2013 at 5:32 PM

There was a great program on the history channel where they set up the exact scenario. Same type of gun, same type of limo and the exact same distance and angle. They used those dummies filled with ink for blood. The tests they ran were pretty much identical to what would have happened with oswald alone. The “magic bullet” preformed the exact same way. It was pretty amazing to see.

The Notorious G.O.P on November 8, 2013 at 5:35 PM

The sky is falling, the sky must be falling, I agree with John Kerry. My main objection to the one shooter idea is, was and always will be that it can not be done. I owned the same such rifle that was used in fact the FBI initially borrowed mine to do speed and accuracy testing. It just can not be fired that fast and it’s accuracy under 20 meters and over 100 meters just sucks.

My dad was a forensic scientist with the Chicago Police Crime lab. I was raised in the crime labs Gun Vault and I retired from the Army as Chief of rifle marksmanship.

jpcpt03 on November 8, 2013 at 5:37 PM

The only plausible conspiracy theory to me is that it was a mob hit because Bobby was going after them, and that Jack Ruby (who had mob ties) was ordered to silence Oswald. Ruby was already ill so a couple of years in the slammer and then death wasn’t the worst.

Either that or it was due to a spat between the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers. . .

rbj on November 8, 2013 at 4:25 PM

Not simply that Bobby and JFK were going after the Mob, but that the Kennedy Crime Family made deals with the Mafia in order to get help electing JFK in Chicago (thus Illinois) and other cities. The Mafia also provided the KCF with brown-bag ‘walking around money’ for the election. One of JFK’s girlfriends was the brown-bag courier.

Any politician can go after the Mafia, but the KCF double-crossed the Mafia, and that’s why they wanted him dead whether they did it or not.

slickwillie2001 on November 8, 2013 at 5:37 PM

Colonel Mustard?
cozmo on November 8, 2013 at 5:30 PM

As good a guess as any, with a candlestick in the study.

HA really needs a poll on the question:

Lone Nut?
Conspiracy?
Hunting Accident?

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:38 PM

Ok, why did Oswald kill the policeman right after the murder of JFK? I believe he acted alone. Oswald was always a loner and at the time of the murder he was separated from his wife and family. His wife wanted nothing to do with him. Read Bill O’Reilly’s book. The movie JFK by Oliver Stone is criminally inaccurate.

On Friday November 22, 1963 I was in the seventh grade French class, fifth period when the classroom loudspeaker announced that JFK had been shot. We all went to sixth period class and just sat until they announced the JFK was dead. I remember my sixth grade English teacher holding back tears to this day. It was a sad day for this country and the world ………….. We had LBJ as president. We will all wonder what would have happened if Kennedy had not be murdered that day.

SC.Charlie on November 8, 2013 at 5:39 PM

If there was a rifleman on the grassy knoll, where’s the rifle? Or did he just stroll away with it on his shoulder?

LHO’s accomplishment has been duplicated more than once, and the magic bullet’s has too.

Akzed on November 8, 2013 at 4:18 PM

Which reminds me, there’s also the strange case of the missing movie camera, taken from a citizen by someone that flashed a badge. The footage from the camera would have been comparable to the Zapruder film.

slickwillie2001 on November 8, 2013 at 5:41 PM

Looks like an easy unobstructed view in 1963 and now.
The Notorious G.O.P on November 8, 2013 at 5:32 PM

From where you and I sit today looking at pictures on a screen, maybe.

If you wanted to best acquire a target would you prefer one that is close, coming toward you, getting larger, with zero obstructions to consider or one going away at a distance?

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:42 PM

That’s fine. The argument is that at least one shot came from the front, either from a sewer or the Grassy Knoll.

That said, Oswald was still a commie and Kerry is still a nitwit.

vityas on November 8, 2013 at 4:13 PM

The sewer, or actually catch basin theory is fascinating.

slickwillie2001 on November 8, 2013 at 5:43 PM

My bad. wasn’t history channel but discovery channel. it is called “jfk inside the target car” if anyone wants to look for it.

The Notorious G.O.P on November 8, 2013 at 5:47 PM

Well I have never ruled out in my on mind the Cuban (however not Soviet Russia) theory or the Mob theory. Oh I think Oswald was the only shooter, no doubt, just that he was such unstable useful idiot that he was an easy play for someone, like the Mob, who wanted payback for the Kennedy clan ripping them off after they got all those dead people to vote for Camelot in Chicago. Just saying…

William Eaton on November 8, 2013 at 5:49 PM

Actually, in a sense, John Connally is responsible for JFK’s murder. As Secretary of the Navy, he gave Oswald a dishonorable discharge from the USMC for something he did WHILE NOT ON ACTIVE DUTY which was totally unfair. There was not much question that Connally, who later went on to become Texas Governor was Oswald’s target and, in fact, obsession. JFK had the bad luck of being in the same car with Connolly. Either Connally got lucky in the shooting or Oswald changed his mind and decided to concentrate on the big fish in lieu of the small fry.

MaiDee on November 8, 2013 at 5:49 PM

The Men Who Killed Kennedy–9 part documentary
http://youtu.be/etgDxSUKLqc

vityas on November 8, 2013 at 5:49 PM

The only plausible conspiracy theory to me is that it was a mob hit because Bobby was going after them, and that Jack Ruby (who had mob ties) was ordered to silence Oswald. Ruby was already ill so a couple of years in the slammer and then death wasn’t the worst.

Either that or it was due to a spat between the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers. . .

rbj on November 8, 2013 at 4:25 PM

Yeah, well there’s no end of people who had something against JFK and weren’t too unhappy was he was killed. You can take your pick from a large cast of villains.

The government has two official position on the matter. Both the Warren Report (one gunman) and the 70s Select Committee (probable conspiracy) conclusions are considered equally valid by the government. Schizophrenic, but that’s the way it is.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:50 PM

Great, we have this idiot negotiating with Iran.

rlwo2008 on November 8, 2013 at 5:52 PM

There is this thing about secrets being too big to keep.

The JFK assassination is one of them.

cozmo on November 8, 2013 at 4:41 PM

Some critics were talking before the Warren Report was released. As far as secrets being kept – why, if this case was solved, are there still WC records classified? What’s the point?

The Notorious G.O.P on November 8, 2013 at 5:32 PM

It would have been an infinitely easier shot if it had been taken while the limo was approaching the building, before it turned onto Elm St. Why wait until the car’s leaving the range of sight?

shaloma on November 8, 2013 at 5:53 PM

slickwillie2001 on November 8, 2013 at 5:37 PM

Sorry missed your post so mine is now redundant…but agree 100%, if there was a conspiracy it was probably mob based. The Dems don’t want that to come out because it makes their royal family look like a bunch of crooks who ripped off a bunch of other crooks.

We know how that story always ends…

William Eaton on November 8, 2013 at 5:54 PM

pet theory:

jackies got wind of jfk’s philandering and drug abuse and told jfk and joe sr that she was going to divorce jfk if he didn’t straighten up. they told her that they would kill her before allowing her to do that, and they believed her when she seemed to back down and just plead that jfk stop. but she knew how joe sr operated and feared for her life – thinking her death would help jfk politically by making him more sympathetic. so she ran to her sister – lee radziwill – who agreed jackies life was in danger and went to her boyfriend – aristotle onasis – and asked him to help. he agreed to – on one condition: jackie marry him, after a proper amount of time. the sisters agreed to his terms. he contacted his pals in the marseille heroine cartel and they got their friends in the usa mafia to agree to whack jfk – for a hefty fee. but before they could do so, jfk was whacked by a kgb agent: lee harvey oswald.

:)

it would a great movie, and an antidote to oliver stone.

and kerry!

reliapundit on November 8, 2013 at 5:54 PM

The sky is falling, the sky must be falling, I agree with John Kerry. My main objection to the one shooter idea is, was and always will be that it can not be done. I owned the same such rifle that was used in fact the FBI initially borrowed mine to do speed and accuracy testing. It just can not be fired that fast and it’s accuracy under 20 meters and over 100 meters just sucks.
My dad was a forensic scientist with the Chicago Police Crime lab. I was raised in the crime labs Gun Vault and I retired from the Army as Chief of rifle marksmanship.
jpcpt03 on November 8, 2013 at 5:37 PM

Well, for me, it’s more of having a good sense of when my leg is being pulled a bit to far. One or two coincidences related to an event like this might pass the test, but when it’s a long, long parade of amazing coincidences it gets to where I need to have my leg reattached from all the pulling. Otherwise I don’t have much use for, or interest in, all things conspiracy – moon landings, Elvis, Bigfoot, 9-11 and assorted kookery.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:57 PM

The Men Who Killed Kennedy–9 part documentary
http://youtu.be/etgDxSUKLqc

vityas on November 8, 2013 at 5:49 PM

That’s a good, informative series but there is some amount of stuff that doesn’t pass the smell test mixed in. I think reasonable folks can separate the wheat from the chaff.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 6:02 PM

Although I believe that Oswald probably acted alone, the notion of some type of Soviet and/or Cuban involvement or at least foreknowledge is not completely batsh*t crazy. Lyndon Johnson, for one, always believed that Oswald did not act alone and that Castro may have been involved. Oswald’s reported meeting with a KGB assassination specialist at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City six or so weeks before JFK’s killing is certainly interesting, although not proof of anything in and of itself.

Hayabusa on November 8, 2013 at 6:08 PM

Kerry is Swift-boating the Warren Commission.

Paul-Cincy on November 8, 2013 at 6:09 PM

Worth noting also that RFK was killed by an Arab. Some say he was an Arab-Christian, yet a “Palestinian”-activist. Others question his supposed Christianity.

WhatSlushfund on November 8, 2013 at 6:11 PM

Lyndon Johnson, for one, always believed that Oswald did not act alone and that Castro may have been involved.

It’s true that LBJ (and other officials) suspected conspiracy was involved.

Oswald’s reported meeting with a KGB assassination specialist at the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City six or so weeks before JFK’s killing is certainly interesting, although not proof of anything in and of itself.
Hayabusa on November 8, 2013 at 6:08 PM

That’s not quite correct, though I believe there is audio around of LBJ and Hoover talking on the phone wondering who was posing as Oswald in Mexico city.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 6:18 PM

If you wanted to best acquire a target would you prefer one that is close, coming toward you, getting larger, with zero obstructions to consider or one going away at a distance?

I’ve always wondered about this but something I saw on TV a little while ago provided the obvious (though I hadn’t thought of it) answer: if you shoot him when he’s coming toward you, everybody (Secret Service, bystanders, police, etc.) is looking right in your direction and several people are sure to see you. If you wait until you’re “behind” the motorcade, it’s much less likely that anybody at that point is looking in your direction.

Courtesybears on November 8, 2013 at 6:40 PM

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 6:18 PM

Like I said above, I think Oswald acted alone; Posner’s Case Closed was pretty definitive for me. However, I’m just pointing out that speculation about a potential Soviet/Cuban nexus is not quite as ludicrous as most of the harebrained JFK conspiracy theories out there, and that some pretty senior people (including LBJ) thought there might be something to it, and were worried that it could lead to WWIII if the link were ever proved.

Hayabusa on November 8, 2013 at 6:46 PM

Last time I was in Dallas I visited Dealey Plaza. The view from the sixth floor window to the “X” on the street is remarkably close. I am pretty sure I could make the shot as long as I stayed away from caffeine prior to the attempt.

BubbaCluck on November 8, 2013 at 6:46 PM

Anything to distract from the Obamacareturd fiasco.

kemojr on November 8, 2013 at 6:54 PM

I’ve always wondered about this but something I saw on TV a little while ago provided the obvious (though I hadn’t thought of it) answer: if you shoot him when he’s coming toward you, everybody (Secret Service, bystanders, police, etc.) is looking right in your direction and several people are sure to see you. If you wait until you’re “behind” the motorcade, it’s much less likely that anybody at that point is looking in your direction.
Courtesybears on November 8, 2013 at 6:40 PM

You’d just hang back a bit from the window and not do the sighting until you were yoo close to miss an easy shot. Besides, the SS agents weren’t watching the windows and afterwards some witnesses said the saw several people up there before & after the shots. Of the SS had been doing their job all the windows where snipers could take shots from would have been closed at the very least. But they were hungover that day, so they prob weren’t up to even par security.

Then there’s this bit of oddity with the SS as the motorcade was leaving Love Field for the trip thru Dallas.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 7:01 PM

When I used to study the many conspiracys I came across Mary Ferrels site.She was one of the top researchers.I found a document that showed Ruby and Oswalt had the same landlord in Dallas.Doesn’t prove anything but was interesting.

docflash on November 8, 2013 at 7:02 PM

Like I said above, I think Oswald acted alone; Posner’s Case Closed was pretty definitive for me. However, I’m just pointing out that speculation about a potential Soviet/Cuban nexus is not quite as ludicrous as most of the harebrained JFK conspiracy theories out there, and that some pretty senior people (including LBJ) thought there might be something to it, and were worried that it could lead to WWIII if the link were ever proved.
Hayabusa on November 8, 2013 at 6:46 PM

Yeah, whenever the term “conspiracy” is used it usually brings to mind nuts ranting about UFOs, 9-11, Bush, etc. It simply means two or more people involved in some action. In that case, you could have just one shooter and at least one other person involved in some capacity.

LBJ was indeed worried that it could lead to something bigger and wanted to quash it ASAP.

But I don’t see Soviet/Cuban nexus as the cause source since they wouldn’t have the means to be into the questionable activities and coverup afterwards. Unless you’re thinking that to avoid public outrage and WWIII, those within the US Govt handled such things.

I think I jusr read something recently related to your view, though. Maybe a book that’s coming out or a news article, I’ll have to check.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 7:12 PM

And the mystery shooter also affected Kerry’s brain, causing him to mistake a Swift Boat for a PT Boat, hang nails for war injuries, and vocal aberrations, causing him to have a phony Boston Irish accent.

trl on November 8, 2013 at 7:24 PM

When I used to study the many conspiracys I came across Mary Ferrels site.She was one of the top researchers.I found a document that showed Ruby and Oswalt had the same landlord in Dallas.Doesn’t prove anything but was interesting.

docflash on November 8, 2013 at 7:02 PM

I dismiss conspiracies as a whole. There are very few that I find have any real merit but the JFK killing is one I believe does.

Mary Ferrell wasn’t a conspiracy nut, she was just happened to be a Dallas housewife who started collecting articles in since the day it happened and build up quite a database over the years.

Another thing that’s interesting. The Oswald coworker who drove him to work that day noted that Oswald had a package that contained curtain rods. It was speculated it was really a rifle in the package. However, the coworker also noted that LHO carried it with one end wedged under his armpit and held the other end in his hand. Even broken down, the Carcano would be too long for that.

Here’s the interesting part, from the Dallas Police site’s photo evidence archive – look at
Box 12, Folder 53
“2. Fingerprint Record, by an unknown author. Fingerprints taken from curtain rods”

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 7:31 PM

I am pretty sure I could make the shot as long as I stayed away from caffeine prior to the attempt.
BubbaCluck on November 8, 2013 at 6:46 PM

Dr. Pepper was Oswald’s favorite beverage (really). It contains 41mg of caffeine (again, really).

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 7:37 PM

So your fellow jarheads joked about your habit of getting Naggie’s Drawers, too?

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:28 PM

The expression, shi+head, is “Maggie’s drawers”. In Basic I put 9 of 10 in the throat of the silhouette at the 500 yd line with a M16-A1. That was a long time ago and I serve with a different branch now.

You clearly have never been to Dealy Plaza and you’ve probably never fired a rifle. It was an easy shot. And every single marksman who has ever visited the location has agreed with that assessment.

M240H on November 8, 2013 at 7:40 PM

Holy cow. Did they ask him if fire can melt steel?

besser tot als rot on November 8, 2013 at 7:47 PM

. M240H on November 8, 2013 at 7:40

Braggard.

Next thing we know you’ll be suggesting you could have taken that shot from a moving aircraft,, or something…

wolly4321 on November 8, 2013 at 8:00 PM

Where was Harry Reid on the day of the shooting?

justltl on November 8, 2013 at 8:16 PM

I blame Bush.

29Victor on November 8, 2013 at 8:31 PM

I have “serious doubts” that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, says … the U.S. secretary of state

…Let’s reenact… it Mr. Kerry!

KOOLAID2 on November 8, 2013 at 8:44 PM

The expression, shi+head, is “Maggie’s drawers”.

Look at your keyboard, it’s called a “typo”. If you you scroll up you’ll note I’ve made more than a few mistypes in comments tonight, but it’s kinda silly to get all bent out of shape about it.
But to the point, Oswald had a rep for being a poor shot, earning lots of Maggie’s Drawers according to those with whon he served.

I put 9 of 10 in the throat of the silhouette at the 500 yd line with a M16-A1.
M240H on November 8, 2013 at 7:40 PM

Oswald shot using M1 Garand semi-automatic (standard), racking up those Drawers at 200 yards. (Warren Commission – Chapter 4, p. 191)

The point being that he’s probably not the one you hope to emulate, at least when it comes to the firing range. He didn’t become the still-unbeaten world champion of rapid speed firing of magic bullets until the Warren Commission belatedly found out that at least one bullet missed totally, with the shrapnel hitting a bystander. Not enough shots to account for all the wounds, so Oswald became the most amazingly accurate sniper in all of world history to make up for the time discrepancy. At one time Hoover even wrote “we have also tested the fact you could fire those three shots in three seconds.”

You see, while you know your own personal history, you don’t know the history and facts of this particular event. You haven’t haven’t done the research that I have. That’s neither good nor bad, you could be more knowledgeable than I on “Desert Storm” or flyfishing or whatever. Again, that’s neither here nor there, it just is.

And I’m not the sort to get into online personal experience-based urination competitions, but I wouldn’t be surprised if right about the time my Dad had this little fella out plunking down cans and rats at the dump with a .22 – if that just might have been about the time you were giving up the pacifier. Not meant as an insult, just a cautionary thought om tossing out anger-inspired assumptions.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 8:48 PM

Where was Harry Reid on the day of the shooting?
justltl on November 8, 2013 at 8:16 PM

We know Pelosi’s whereabouts before that day.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 8:51 PM

And thus you cannot see the tree branches that he would have to shoot through with a rifle so prone to missing that it was called “the humanitarian weapon” in WWII

Which is BS. My uncle (Lt.Col., A.C.E.) stated that in the North African and Italian campaigns, everyone had a healthy respect for the 6.5mm Carcano, as not only was it reasonably accurate and pretty rugged, but its long, narrow bullet tumbled repeatedly in the body cavity after first penetration, generating wounds that the doctors really hated to have to deal with. (Most bullets “flip over” once in the body, and then travel backwards until coming to a stop.)

Said bullet also had hellacious penetration due to its high sectional density, and the pleasant habit of “curving” in the body, due to this repeated tumbling effect. Or, as he put it, “it could go through two men with no trouble. And if it hit a man in the middle of his back, it might come out his side or even end up in his hip, depending on what it bounced off of or tumbled through inside his body.”

In short, the behavior of the so-called “magic bullet” didn’t surprise him one bit.

BTW, he was a highly skilled rifleman, an NRA licensed and certified instructor, and in his civilian life took at least one example of very major North American game animal, including a couple of Boone & Crockett records. And all of the African Big Five. In short, the man knew rifles- period.

which also happened to be fitted with a misaligned scope.

At 65-80 yards, Oswald, a trained Marine rifleman, would have been using the iron sights. Which on that particular rifle were fixed wartime expedient sights zeroed at exactly 100 meters. Using standard ball ammunition, which he did, a 50-meter shot at a target moving slowly across his field of fire would have been practically a gimmee.

This is also the most likely reason he waited until the car was going down Elm Street instead of taking it under fire as it moved toward him on Houston. Along with the facts that (1) if he missed, the driver could have floored it and gone straight down Houston, past the Book Depository building, and he wouldn’t have gotten a second chance, and (2) the presidential limousine may have had its “bubbletop” removed, but the windshield wasn’t removable. And like the bubble, it was made of armored Plexiglas. Meaning that his chances of getting a hit from the front were next to zero, and he knew it, because the fact that the limo had armored glass had been well-publicized… at the behest of the Secret Service.

Unless we’re talking about the Mauser the Dallas police also found there.

whatcat on November 8, 2013 at 5:03 PM

Actually that was a case of “mistaken identity”. The first officer there identified the rifle as a “Mauser” model 1888, aka the “Commission Rifle”, like this one.

While often referred to as a “Mauser” due to being made for the German Army by Mauserwerke among others, it’s actually a mixed bag of design features from Mauser,Mannlicher, and other rifle patents. Note that the Carcano, more properly the Mannlicher-Carcano Model 1891, borrows from the same patents, which is why it looks a lot like the “Commission Rifle”, as you can see here.

In short, the “Mauser” story is due to a cop who was not a rifle expert making a perfectly normal mistake in ID’ing the weapon when seeing it stuck behind a cardboard carton with only its action visible.

Here’s the 1888 “Mauser” action

… And here’s the 1891 Carcano action.

Even I’d have trouble telling them apart in dim light. And as a police crime lab ballistics technician, I used to ID weapons to earn a paycheck.

So much for all that.

clear ether

eon

eon on November 8, 2013 at 9:22 PM

Right!!!!!

No Gd damn fool shoots without a camera crew!!!

Duhhhh!

WryTrvllr on November 8, 2013 at 9:55 PM

Hey! Why did Oliver Stone go with the Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, CIA plot? Because the rights to Jim Garrison’s book was cheaper than the rights to Roscoe White’s book.

JohnBrown on November 8, 2013 at 10:53 PM

My uncle was the FIRST officer in the building and has continually and emphatically stated that Oswald was the ONLY person in that building.

Logus on November 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM

This is just completely and utterly incorrect. What of Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman and James Jarman Jr. photographed in the 5th floor window? Aren’t they “in that building”?

JohnBrown on November 8, 2013 at 4:36 PM

To be honest, I don’t know and don’t care. Just relating what I was told. I’ve never really spent any time thinking about or reading about the assassination. I’ve heard various theories as to why Kennedy was shot – fiat currency was one issue floated I think. I’ve seen the famous video clip leading up to him being shot and probably a couple of photos of him as he’s shot and on the gurney, but by and large the story has never interested me much other than as a family story my mother told of remembering where she was when she heard that the President had been assassinated (just as I remember hearing about/watching about Reagan’s assassination attempt on the evening news at my grandparents though my generation remembers the Challenger explosion more).

Oswald as a sole nutter sounds just as plausible as some of the other theories.

Logus on November 9, 2013 at 12:39 AM

Kerry figured all this out when he listened to President Nixon on the radio Christmas day while his Swift boat was in Cambodia.

schmuck281 on November 9, 2013 at 12:57 AM

My uncle was the FIRST officer in the building and has continually and emphatically stated that Oswald was the ONLY person in that building.
Logus on November 8, 2013 at 4:06 PM

This is just completely and utterly incorrect. What of Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman and James Jarman Jr. photographed in the 5th floor window? Aren’t they “in that building”?
JohnBrown on November 8, 2013 at 4:36 PM

There were a good number of people in the bldg at the time. I believe the first officer in the bldg was Marrion Baker, who was a motorcycle cop. He talked with Oswald, who was calmly sipping a soft drink in the lunchroom on the 2nd floor, less than 90 seconds after the shots were fired. He was, at least, the first officer to have contact with Oswald and nothing struck him as being out of place. Then he and the bldg mgr went on to check the others that were in the bldg. Given all this, Logus’ story would seem to be just a tall tale told to entertain a nephew.

whatcat on November 9, 2013 at 1:34 AM

If you look at the fatal headshot, on the Zapruder film, it is clear that it could not have come from the school book depository. You can see the right front of the president’s head explode. That is clearly the bullet exiting. That means the angle is wrong for that shot to have come from the school book depository. It came from the president’s left, meaning Oswald did not fire that shot.
There was a TV show on this week, claiming that there were multiple bullet fragments in the president’s brain, the bullet having gone to pieces in his head, not something a full metal jacket 6.5mm bullet would do, but consistent with a 5.56 projectile. There was a Secret Service agent with an AR15 in a car behind the president. It was postulated in the program that when the cars sped up to leave the scene, he fell backwards, accidentally discharging the rifle, and the bullet that killed Kennedy, came from his rifle. The evidence and explanation, were pretty overwhelming. That would explain why the SS was adamant about having the autopsy done in DC, not Dallas, and why even in DC they proceeded to hamper and control the pathologist doing the autopsy.

kjatexas on November 9, 2013 at 4:39 AM

The Men Who Killed Kennedy–9 part documentary
http://youtu.be/etgDxSUKLqc

vityas on November 8, 2013 at 5:49 PM

Interesting and well done. I watched the first three segments last night.

Axion on November 9, 2013 at 5:51 AM

Given all this, Logus’ story would seem to be just a tall tale told to entertain a nephew.

whatcat on November 9, 2013 at 1:34 AM

After this thread, it’s entirely probable and more likely just a tall tale or an exaggerated one told to entertain and impress his family not just me because my stepfather was the one who told me the story.

**Shrug**

But then, there’s also the story told of my step-father’s dad who apparently once proclaimed, “Jackie Kennedy is a street-walking w***e.” To which Granny replied incredulously, “Who told you that?!” … “I been knowin’ it.”

**facepalm**

Logus on November 9, 2013 at 9:44 AM

Kerry is an idiot, and an embarrassment to America even before he was Sec of State. Enough said.

GWB on November 9, 2013 at 10:13 AM

One thing that I’ve always wondered is that if Oswald hit JFK with two shots then what happened with the other shot? Did Oswald just miss everything?

SoulGlo on November 9, 2013 at 10:26 AM

Carcanos are certainly “clunky” by most standards but they’re nothing to laugh at. I own won and it’s an accurate little dude.

Plenty of better weapons to do a job like the but all it took was a $25 mail order Carcano to change history.

JoeinTX on November 8, 2013 at 4:49 PM

All true, but a $25 Carcano still seems ‘penny wise and pound foolish’ if we’re talking about a conspiracy-conspiracy.

At any rate, the other guy (if any) wasn’t necessarily either Fidel Castro or Bunky Hunt; he could have just as easily have been some loser drinking buddy of Oswald’s.

PersonFromPorlock on November 9, 2013 at 10:34 AM

Seems that the ketchup-variety JFK likes to hear himself talk.

TimBuk3 on November 9, 2013 at 10:41 AM

SoulGlo on November 9, 2013 at 10:26 AM

The three shots fired went something like this, according to the Zapruder film and other forensic evidence;

Shot 1- Hit JFK high in the back, forcing him to lean forward due to impact force. This bullet apparently hit the back brace JFK wore due to the back injury he suffered during the PT-109 incident, and thus penetrated only partway into his body. In fact, this bullet was very likely CE399, the legendary “magic bullet”, that was found on the stretcher at Parkland Hospital; it may have worked its way back out of JFK’s back muscles during external heart massage in the ambulance on the way to Parkland. It has been mistakenly identified as the bullet that hit JFK and then hit Governor Connally for fifty years. (Yes, the Warren Commission goofed, or more precisely the FBI lab did. It was neither the first nor the last time for the Bureau- I speak from personal experience.)

Shot 2- The real “magic bullet”. Hit JFK in the back of the neck, exited through his throat. The exit wound was destroyed by surgeons at Parkland trying to insert an esophageal airway bypass to sustain JFK’s breathing; they noted on their charts that a wound existed exactly where they had to cut to insert the airway.

This bullet continued on, hitting Connally in the shoulder and ranging downward to exit his right chest and go on into his right wrist, losing velocity and fragmenting as it did. It passed through JFK’s neck muscles, Connally’s scapula (breaking it), one of Connally’s ribs (breaking it), and the bones in his wrist (breaking them). Fragments of this bullet were found in the right front footwell of the limousine, which is where I’d expect to find them based on trajectory, and like I said I used to do this sort of thing for a paycheck.

Shot 3- Nothing esoteric here. This was the shot that exploded JFK’s skull. X-rays showed fragments of bullet jacket and core material throughout the remaining brain matter. Forensic tests of recovered fragment ID’d them as parts of a 165-grain, full-metal-jacket, 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano bullet, made at the U.S. Lake City Arsenal in 1944.

Remember, the Italians switched sides in 1943 just as they had done in 1916, and we supplied the Italian Co-Belligerent Forces (ICBF) with equipment ranging from aircraft (like P-39 Airacobras) to rifle and pistol ammunition for the rest of the war. The round the bullet came from, like the rest of Oswald’s box of ammunition for the rifle, was part of a surplus sale to Klein’s Sporting Goods in Chicago(where he bought the rifle by mail order) in 1959.

BTW, the explosive performance of the bullet when it penetrated JFK’s skull was normal for the 6.5mm Carcano slug when hitting heavy bone. This was in fact a deliberate feature of the bullet’s design, as the Italian Army in the 1890s was anticipating fighting not “civilized” armies, but native uprisings in Italy’s African colonies. They wanted a bullet that would give the performance in wounding and killing power that was equivalent to their old 10.35mm Vetterli lead-bullet load, which had ballistics and wound characteristics approximating those of the British .577/.450 Martini-Henry round of “Rorke’s Drift” fame. They also wanted a bullet that would do it without violating the Hague Accords prohibition on “expanding bullets”.

The Accords didn’t say anything about deep-penetrating bullets designed to basically blow up when they finally hit heavy bones.

In Dallas, the Carcano rifle and cartridge proved that the Italian designers in 1890-1904 did a pretty good job of fulfilling the specifications the Army asked for.

I think that about covers it.

clear ether

eon

eon on November 9, 2013 at 10:59 AM

This is the only thing I will say about the JFK matter.

I utterly refute that 9/11 was an inside job.

I am absolutely convinced that Americans landed on the moon.

There is no f***ing way I believe a single word of the Warren Commission. Not. A. Single. Word. And I own a 1st edition copy.

I loathe and despise conspiracy nonsense. But I will not shut my eyes to lies as they are told to me. And I am not a fool.

John Kerry is a pathetic husk of a man, but this claim is valid.

What we have been sold on JFK’s murder is a pack of lies.

thejackal on November 9, 2013 at 11:37 AM

eon on November 9, 2013 at 10:59 AM

Which of these shots was the one that hit the curb and sent ricochet fragments into the face of James Tague?

Shay on November 9, 2013 at 11:54 AM

One thing that I’ve always wondered is that if Oswald hit JFK with two shots then what happened with the other shot? Did Oswald just miss everything?
SoulGlo on November 9, 2013 at 10:26 AM

Yes, except for the street. A fragment of the ricochet hit bystander James Tague. The Warren Commission was forced into inventing the hokey Magic Bullet story because of that, to account for all the wounds.

They had decided that Oswald had made three shots and all hit their mark. A fourth missed shot, as many people reported hearing, wounding Tague would rule out as a sole shooter. The story of him making three perfect shots was already hinky – at best – to start with, given the time frame involved. So they decided to just skip a bullet to make the story work by making one of the bullets “Magic”. It was a totally fabricated story tailored solely to fit the time frame.

whatcat on November 9, 2013 at 12:04 PM

on on November 9, 2013 at 10:59 AM

Which of these shots was the one that hit the curb and sent ricochet fragments into the face of James Tague?

Shay on November 9, 2013 at 11:54 AM

eon is incorrect on pretty much everything. I was going to point out that one glaringly obvious problem instead of spanding my Sat morn going over all the things he got wrong, but you spared me even that trouble. Tip of the hat to ya, for that.

whatcat on November 9, 2013 at 12:08 PM

After this thread, it’s entirely probable and more likely just a tall tale or an exaggerated one told to entertain and impress his family not just me because my stepfather was the one who told me the story.

**Shrug**

But then, there’s also the story told of my step-father’s dad who apparently once proclaimed, “Jackie Kennedy is a street-walking w***e.” To which Granny replied incredulously, “Who told you that?!” … “I been knowin’ it.”

**facepalm**

Logus on November 9, 2013 at 9:44 AM

Didn’t mean to imply anything bad about your uncle there, sorry if it sounded that way. I’ve told more than a few tall tales as the years roll along, myself. Each year the snow is a little deeper, the distance a bit longer and the hill a little steeper when I talk about walking to school in the Winter.

Can’t beat my folks , though. Their stories included encounters with wild animals on their walk to school. Of course, they both grew up way out in the boonies, so they were likely not pulling us kids’ legs. And ya gotta believe your parents, anyway!

whatcat on November 9, 2013 at 12:17 PM

thejackal on November 9, 2013 at 11:37 AM

I can give you a ditto on that righteous rant.

whatcat on November 9, 2013 at 12:19 PM

thejackal on November 9, 2013 at 11:37 AM

whatcat on November 9, 2013 at 12:08 PM

I have to say it’s a little discouraging to me to see how many conservatives are still lone-nutters. I can understand why people might debate the precise involvement of LHO but to buy the Warren Commission fiction wholesale? Really?

Shay on November 9, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Which of these shots was the one that hit the curb and sent ricochet fragments into the face of James Tague?

Shay on November 9, 2013 at 11:54 AM

The final head shot. Part of the bullet core (lead) exited the front of JFK’s head on a downward and to the left trajectory. It probably wasn’t a piece of the curbing that Tague felt sting his cheek, but a fragment of lead that ricocheted off the curbing as the bullet core section finally broke up completely.

BTW, even Josiah Thompson and Mark Lane, two of the biggest “JFK conspiracy theorists” of the Sixties and Seventies (and authors of Six Seconds In Dallas and Rush To Judgement, respectively), agreed that this was what happened in Tague’s case. Which is worth noting because they agreed on practically nothing else.

Thompson’s book (subtitled A Micro-Study of the JFK Assassination) is still worth reading today. While he draws a lot of fanciful conclusions, he at least details the evidence accurately. Probably because hew was Ph.D in physics, not a lawyer or journalist.

Lane, OTOH, was mainly a political ideologue. He wanted to “prove” that the CIA did it because they were in bed with the mob and also were afraid JFK was going to pull U.S. advisors out of Vietnam.

His later career included being the legal counsel to Jim Jones’ People’s Temple. He was there in Guyana the day Congressman Leo Ryan was ambushed and murdered, and Jones led the rest in a mass suicide. Somehow Lane came out unscathed, both in body and reputation.

cheers

eon

eon on November 9, 2013 at 2:43 PM

I have to say it’s a little discouraging to me to see how many conservatives are still lone-nutters. I can understand why people might debate the precise involvement of LHO but to buy the Warren Commission fiction wholesale? Really?
Shay on November 9, 2013 at 2:42 PM

I understand your feeling a bit discouraged, but I think a person has to look at more as a murder mystery – one on which the whole story probably won’t be known in our lifetime, if ever. To view things in an objective and dispassionate manner.

When JFK was killed the media was quick to heavily insinuate the “far right” was responsible, so when it was reported that Oswald was an alleged commie it provided then – and still does – a Nelson-like “ha-ha” comeback for conservative folks who had been slandered for the murder. So there is that element to it.

Also, most folks like things to be all tied up nicely pretty quickly. They will accept it even when it such absurdities such as Magic Bullets are manufactured from whole cloth to make a story work.

Look at Watergate – it was a complicated mess to follow as it unraveled in public and I remember how even in the thick of it there were those who thought Nixon wasn’t involved. If Watergate had been reported only as a simple burglary story – nice, simple and quick – and nothing more, life would have made much more sense. A crime of burglary most people can accept much more easily than a President being involved in coverups, payoffs and all.

whatcat on November 9, 2013 at 4:13 PM

I don’t care what happened to Kennedy or who really did it. I still have this naive notion that our presidents shouldn’t have sex with women other than their wives. What Kerry is doing is what people with narcissistic personality disorders do. They intrude on the lives or, in this case, the death of another to make people look at themselves. Otherwise, they have no true sense of self (ego) to live on.

rlwo2008 on November 9, 2013 at 4:32 PM

cozmo on November 8, 2013 at 5:25 PM

What’s that lady doing on the right hand side of your picture?

unclesmrgol on November 9, 2013 at 5:43 PM

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