Senate to vote on clean debt-ceiling increase

posted at 8:01 am on October 8, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Consider this a double down in a high-stakes game of poker.  After Harry Reid and Barack Obama dared that John Boehner to hold a vote on a clean debt-ceiling increase, Boehner replied that Reid couldn’t pass one in his own chamber — a warning that the Republicans would block such a vote. With the bluff on the other side of the table, Reid has no choice now but to try:

Democrats controlling the Senate are planning to try to pass a stand-alone measure to increase the government’s borrowing cap, challenging Republicans to a filibuster showdown that could unnerve financial markets as the deadline to a first-ever default on U.S. obligations draws closer.

A spokesman said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid could unveil the measure as early as Tuesday, setting the table for a test vote later in the week. The measure is expected to provide enough borrowing room to last beyond next year’s election, which means it likely will permit $1 trillion or more in new borrowing above the current $16.7 trillion debt ceiling that the administration says will be hit on Oct. 17.

The development came as a partial shutdown of the government enters its second week with no end in sight.

Can Reid call Boehner’s bluff?  The AP notes that a few Republicans seem leery of going to the mattresses on a matter that could create a large amount of economic damage:

Some Republicans seemed wary of participating in a filibuster that could rattle the stock and bond markets.

“We shouldn’t be dismissing anything out of hand, whether it’s the debt ceiling or what we’re going to do with this government shutdown,” Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, said. “We’ve got a situation where you’ve got a calendar running, you’ve got people who are frustrated and upset, so let’s figure it out.”

On the other hand, Democrats have been surprised to discover that everyone isn’t blaming the GOP alone for the crisis:

Democrats have the advantage in the government shutdown debate, but it’s not the rout that many anticipated.

While polls show that more people blame Republicans than Democrats, the margin is not so lopsided that GOP leaders feel compelled to back down.

Democratic strategists confidently predicted last month their party would trounce the GOP in the court of public opinion in the event of a shutdown. But a week after government funding expired, some Democrats have a tough time reading the scoreboard.

“I don’t think anyone comes out of this looking better than when it started,” said former Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-N.D.). “It’s kind of a pox on everybody’s house.”

Democrats have had their share of missteps over the last week, including the World War II Memorial controversy, the interruption of the Amber Alert government website and a gaffe by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.).

The lack of certainty in the polling and the series of gaffes by Democrats at both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue have opened up a rift between the White House and the Senate, Politico reports:

For the past several weeks, Senate Democrats and the White House have shown a remarkable amount of unity in the controversial fight surrounding the debt ceiling.

Then came shutdown Day Seven.

Just as top Senate Democrats began to lay the groundwork to raise the U.S. government’s borrowing limit through 2014, senior White House officials refused to rule out a short-term increase. The divergent messages caused major heartburn for top Senate Democrats and gave Republicans fresh hope that they could defeat a yearlong debt ceiling hike and win concessions from President Barack Obama in this fall’s fiscal battles. …

Democrats began to raise concerns privately that the White House appeared to be softening its iron-clad position.

“This is very disconcerting to us,” a senior Senate Democratic leadership aide said on condition of anonymity, referring to comments by the president’s top economic adviser, Gene Sperling, at POLITICO’S Playbook Breakfast on Monday. “All along, the president and White House have been firm on what they want, both in a [government funding bill] and debt ceiling. So we’re concerned about this.”

Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said, “What does short-term buy us? That buys us Thanksgiving in Washington.”

The White House may be seeing this more clearly than the Senate.  A default due to a game of chicken over a refusal to negotiate on budgetary matters will end up on Barack Obama’s scorecard, not just House Republicans.  As the executive, he will take the brunt of the blame — especially over his obstinacy over the puzzling notion that Republicans aren’t allowed to participate in funding decisions through negotiations even though they control the House of Representatives.  This isn’t war policy, after all, but the spending mechanism that the Constitution establishes as the House’s area of primacy.

If Reid can pass the debt-ceiling hike, though, it will shift pressure back to Boehner to take up the bill, especially after his bluff this week.  However, that’s still a mighty big if.

Note: There is lingering confusion over the limits on the Senate regarding budgets.  It’s true that the House has to originate bills that raise revenue (Article I Section 7 of the US Constitution), but either chamber can originate spending bills. Since the debt ceiling is not a tax, the Senate can originate it. Thanks to SteveEgg in the comments for pointing out the confusion.


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Since all spending bills must originate in the House, does it even matter that Dingy Harry might pass a “clean” CR before the House? How would a Senate-originated CR be Constitutionally compliant?

Jazz on October 8, 2013 at 8:05 AM

Since all spending bills must originate in the House, does it even matter that Dingy Harry might pass a “clean” CR before the House? How would a Senate-originated CR be Constitutionally compliant?

Jazz

Was just about to ask. One way or the other any debt limit raise deals with revenue. Therefore it must start in the House. Otherwise, its impeachment time.

Zaggs on October 8, 2013 at 8:06 AM

Consider this a double down in a high-stakes game of poker. After Harry Reid and Barack Obama dared that John Boehner to hold a vote on a clean debt-ceiling increase, Boehner replied that Reid couldn’t pass one in his own chamber — a warning that the Republicans would block such a vote. With the bluff on the other side of the table, Reid has no choice now but to try:
===================================

High-Noon at Ceiling Debt ShowDown a’cometh!!

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 8:07 AM

I’m confused… Is raising the debt ceiling not considered a “budgetary” concern?

Or did Reid just gut the bill to fund the troops to replace it with this political language?

Skywise on October 8, 2013 at 8:07 AM

Stand Strong GOP
Mitch and McCain will screw this up along with murkowski and Collins

Squishy gop will scew this up

cmsinaz on October 8, 2013 at 8:08 AM

Why isn’t the President of the United States more engaged in trying to overcome the impasse. All the lazy stupid coward has done is photo-op events to whine about not negotiating with a gun to his head.

Where is the leadership?

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:08 AM

…there is nothing “Clean”… from Congress!

KOOLAID2 on October 8, 2013 at 8:09 AM

High-Noon at Ceiling Debt ShowDown a’cometh!!

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 8:07 AM

Hopefully the GOP will show up properly armed.

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:09 AM

Since all spending bills must originate in the House, does it even matter that Dingy Harry might pass a “clean” CR before the House? How would a Senate-originated CR be Constitutionally compliant?

Jazz on October 8, 2013 at 8:05 AM

It’s bills for “raising Revenue” (capitalization in the Constitution) that must originate in the House, though Dingy has mastered the art of stripping a House resolution to put his own crap in. Spending bills that don’t affect taxation may originate in the Senate.

Steve Eggleston on October 8, 2013 at 8:09 AM

A delightful friend on Facebook posted this. Its rather hilarious

A mini history of the government shutdown from the GOP.

Oct 2008: “You’ll never get elected and pass healthcare.”
Jan 2009: “We are going to shout you down every time you try to pass healthcare.”
July 2009: “We will fight to the death every attempt you make to pass healthcare.”
Dec 2009: “We will destroy you if you even consider passing healthcare.”
March 2010: “We can’t believe you just passed healthcare.”
April 2010: “We are going to overturn healthcare.”
Sept 2010: “We are going to repeal healthcare.”
Jan 2011: “We are going to destroy healthcare.”
Feb 2012: “We are going to elect a candidate who will immediately revoke healthcare.”
June 2012: “We will go to the Supreme Court, and they will overturn healthcare.”
July 2012: “We can’t believe the Supreme Court just upheld healthcare.”
Aug 2012: “The American people will never re-elect you, because they don’t want healthcare.”
Oct 2012: “We can’t wait to win the election and explode healthcare.”
Nov 2012: “We can’t believe you just got re-elected and that we can’t repeal healthcare.”
Feb 2013: “We’re still going to vote to obliterate healthcare.”
July 2013: “We’re going to vote like 35 more times to erase healthcare.”
Sept 2013: “We are going to leverage a government shutdown into defunding, destroying, obliterating, overturning, repealing, dismantling, erasing and ripping apart healthcare.”
Oct 2013: “WHY AREN’T YOU NEGOTIATING???”

libfreeordie on October 8, 2013 at 8:10 AM

How would a Senate-originated CR be Constitutionally compliant?

Jazz

Like Constitutional compliance matters to Reid and Obama.

Gatsu on October 8, 2013 at 8:11 AM

deadline to a first-ever default on U.S. obligations draws closer.

Why does Hot Air even keep linking to this garbage? I seriously can’t read past this, as the article has no worth, except to hose who purposely like to be lied to and misinformed.

Hot Air, apparently.

MNHawk on October 8, 2013 at 8:12 AM

Jazz: Another way to ‘handle this’ is that the Senate can pass a bill with any language. The House can then have a bill with the exact same language, but not technically the Senate bill, and pass that. The House bill will then be sent to the Senate, and the Senate can pass the House bill presumably without a problem, as it’s identical to something they already passed.

Scott H on October 8, 2013 at 8:12 AM

Tom Coburn (RINO-OK) on local talk radio. Says this won’t be resolved before the 17th. But the 17th is an artificial deadline and the problem is that there is no debt ceiling- Congress just keeps raising it. We need to cut up the credit cards.

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:12 AM

A debt-limit bill isn’t a “spending authorization”, but merely the ability to spend what’s already been authorized by the CR. Therefore it can originate in the Senate.

jwehman on October 8, 2013 at 8:14 AM

‘If my Republican friends believe that increasing our debt by almost $800 billion today and more than $3 trillion over the last five years is the right thing to do, they should be upfront about it. They should explain why they think more debt is good for the economy.

How can the Republican majority in this Congress explain to their constituents that trillions of dollars in new debt is good for our economy? How can they explain that they think it’s fair to force our children, our grandchildren, our great grandchildren to finance this debt through higher taxes. That’s what it will have to be. Why is it right to increase our nation’s dependence on foreign creditors?

They should explain this. Maybe they can convince the public they’re right. I doubt it. Because most Americans know that increasing debt is the last thing we should be doing. After all, I repeat, the Baby Boomers are about to retire. Under the circumstances, any credible economist would tell you we should be reducing debt, not increasing it. Democrats won’t be making arguments to support this legislation, which will weaken our country. Weaken our country.’

- Senator Harry Reid, 2006

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:14 AM

Another way to ‘handle this’ is that the Senate can pass a bill with any language. The House can then have a bill with the exact same language, but not technically the Senate bill, and pass that. The House bill will then be sent to the Senate, and the Senate can pass the House bill presumably without a problem, as it’s identical to something they already passed.

Scott H on October 8, 2013 at 8:12 AM

The House better not even be thinking of passing the Senate’s “clean” increase in the debt ceiling. Any such legislation needs to come with real and significant methods of debt reduction.

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:14 AM

All revenue bills must start in the House, Spending bills can originate in either chamber. Raising the debt ceiling is not about increasing revenue, just borrowing and spending. Of course, this fact throws into doubt the constitutionality of Obamacare since it the ruled a tax. The issue of where it originate has yet to be addressed in the court ruling.

Laurence on October 8, 2013 at 8:16 AM

A delightful friend on Facebook posted this. Its rather hilarious

A mini history of the government shutdown from the GOP.

libfreeordie on October 8, 2013 at 8:10 AM

Hillarious because there isn’t one bit of truth in the “timeline.” But you’re a worthless troll, nobody takes you seriously.

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:17 AM

Good linky rwm…..will someone in the gop senate reread into the record?

cmsinaz on October 8, 2013 at 8:18 AM

At least it’s clean, so it must be OK, right? It’s not like those dirty bills the Republicans keep pushing. Unfortunately a substantial portion of the public will think so.

claudius on October 8, 2013 at 8:18 AM

There is no “economic catastrophe” impending if we hit the debt ceiling. We cannot default, as has been pointed out.

It is certainly true the world economy might be rocked if we can’t throw lavish White House parties paying Jay-Z and Beyonce to entertain, but we survived Live Aid and we might make it through this, too.

Obama’s gloomy predictions on sequester and now shutdown haven’t come true, other than showing him to be a mean-spirited jerk, and the debt ceiling might be the final blow for the boy who cried “Wolf!”

Adjoran on October 8, 2013 at 8:19 AM

Since it is not at all clear to many, here and elsewhere, that a debt ceiling increase is not that same as a CR it needs to be explained.

The clean CR issue is what is responsible for the government (non) shutdown. A CR is a spending authorization in lieu of a budget which the Senate has not passed in 5 years. This is an insignificant issue compared to:

The debt ceiling increase is needed to allow the government to pay its obligations. This is of vital importance to our nation and must be passed immediately! It affects the confidence that lenders and user of the dollar as a reserve currency can have in the full faith and credit of the US. It is not something to be trifled with.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:20 AM

“We shouldn’t be dismissing anything out of hand, whether it’s the debt ceiling or what we’re going to do with this government shutdown,” Sen. Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska, said. “We’ve got a situation where you’ve got a calendar running, you’ve got people who are frustrated and upset, so let’s figure it out so let’s just give them what they want and be done with it.”


Fixed for Republican surrender impulses

ExpressoBold on October 8, 2013 at 8:21 AM

Adjoran on October 8, 2013 at 8:19 AM

While true that the US cannot and will not “default” on our debt obligations, that is a pedantic point. Failure to raise the debt limit will have catastrophically dire consequences for ours and the world’s credit markets.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:22 AM

At least it’s clean, so it must be OK, right? It’s not like those dirty bills the Republicans keep pushing. Unfortunately a substantial portion of the public will think so.

claudius on October 8, 2013 at 8:18 AM

You know, I think any bill the ‘pubs pass should say “100% cruelty free” or “locally sourced” in front of it.

I bet at least 1/4 of people would say “well it is cruelty free. How bad can it really be?”

Gatsu on October 8, 2013 at 8:22 AM

Guys, those of you that think that the senate would follow the constitution your fooling yourselves.

We learned not too long ago that the AHCA was Reids little baby and was attached to a bill already passed by the house. Then when parts of it was considered a “tax” that should instantly have been knocked down as unconstitutional, and of course the spineless fools we have never seemed to catch onto that point…

So Reid will pass this, and it will pass the house. Game over.

Enjoy the cr#p sandwich. Then again it is funny seeing liberals now coming forward complaining how free ObamaCare is.

watertown on October 8, 2013 at 8:22 AM

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:17 AM

Facebook BS fantasies. Its what idiot liberals do.

cozmo on October 8, 2013 at 8:22 AM

The debt ceiling increase is needed to allow the government to pay its obligations. This is of vital importance to our nation and must be passed immediately! It affects the confidence that lenders and user of the dollar as a reserve currency can have in the full faith and credit of the US. It is not something to be trifled with.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:20 AM

You are fear-mongering. Why?

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:23 AM

A debt-limit bill isn’t a “spending authorization”, but merely the ability to spend what’s already been authorized by the CR. Therefore it can originate in the Senate.

jwehman

Except that would mean no other spending could take place that was not already authorized. Therefore as the closing of public monuments or the delay of the employer mandate was not authorized, any debt ceiling clearance involves new spending.

Zaggs on October 8, 2013 at 8:23 AM

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:23 AM

Because there is very good reason to be good and scared!

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM

That’s what kostards do.

Murphy9 on October 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM

Senate to give itself permission to NOT produce Constitutionally mandated budget EVER … Budgets are so limiting

DANEgerus on October 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM

Because most Americans know that increasing debt is the last thing we should be doing. After all, I repeat, the Baby Boomers are about to retire. Under the circumstances, any credible economist would tell you we should be reducing debt, not increasing it. Democrats won’t be making arguments to support this legislation, which will weaken our country. Weaken our country.’

- Senator Harry Reid, 2006

Debt on 16 March 2006: $8,271,005,203,336.67

Debt today: $16,747,458,528,953.05 (Treasury) and an estimated $17.25 trillion (OMB).

After adding $8,476,453,325,616.38 to the national debt since he made that comment in 2006, what Harry Reid thinks the country needs to do is add trillions more – that’s trillion with a ‘T’ as Obama said.

BTW, Reid’s stated reason then was that the Boomers were about to start retiring so we needed to reduce the debt. Beginning on 01.01.10 (and lasting through 2020, at least), 10,000 Americans began to become eligible for Social Security and Medicare EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM

Meanwhile,…..

Reuters Top News ‏@Reuters 8m

Budget impasse forces U.S. to cancel army drill with Japan http://reut.rs/GKWIKY
=====================

Budget impasse forces U.S. to cancel army drill with Japan

TOKYO | Tue Oct 8, 2013 8:14am EDT
**********************************

(Reuters) – The United States has cancelled a military exercise with Japan because of the U.S. fiscal standoff, Japan’s Defense Ministry said on Tuesday, underscoring the extent of the impact of the U.S. congressional deadlock.

The cancellation comes days after the United States and Japan agreed to modernize their defense alliance for the first time in 16 years to address concerns about North Korea’s nuclear program, global terrorism, cyber intrusions and other 21st century threats.

Military exercises between Japanese and U.S. forces are the integral part of the alliance, but they have sometimes been a cause of irritation for China, with which Japan is locked in a territorial dispute.

The U.S. army and Japan’s Ground Self-Defense Force planned to conduct an exercise in northeastern Japan, from October 15 to October 28, mobilizing 400 service men and women from the United States and 600 from Japan.

But the U.S. side asked for the cancellation citing the failed attempt by Congress to reach a deal to fund the federal government in the new fiscal year that began on October 1, the Japanese Defense Ministry said.

“This is the only case that has been affected but if cancellations continue on other events, the impact would be substantial,” a ministry spokesman said.

The Japanese Ground Self-Defense Force started a joint drill with the U.S. Marine Corps in Shiga prefecture, central Japan, on Tuesday, one day late because of a typhoon.
===========================================

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/08/us-usa-japan-exercise-idUSBRE9970DA20131008?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=992637

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 8:25 AM

libfreeordie on October 8, 2013 at 8:10 AM

Hey libfree how you enjoying your 10K deductible? O I doubt you pay any extra and gets all sorts of credits from that. Guess what, your buddies are starting to get letters in the mail explaining the “benefits” from ObamaCare and they are not too fond. Many are realizing that they have to pay tons of money, but what do you care if you got yours right?

watertown on October 8, 2013 at 8:25 AM

Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said, “What does short-term buy us? That buys us Thanksgiving in Washington.

You poor, overworked commie.

VibrioCocci on October 8, 2013 at 8:28 AM

Let’s hope Obama, not Boehner, is Flick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLZj3zOUZNs

BuckeyeSam on October 8, 2013 at 8:29 AM

It affects the confidence that lenders and user of the dollar as a reserve currency can have in the full faith and credit of the US. It is not something to be trifled with.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:20 AM

The Federal Reserve is EXPLICITLY planning to devalue the USD by 33% over the next two decades in order to shave 20% off of LAST YEAR’S DEBT LEVEL.

That should reassure lenders and users of the dollar as a reserve currency or something.

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:30 AM

watertown on October 8, 2013 at 8:25 AM

He’s loving that he has full maternity benefits for the first time in his life./

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:31 AM

“Of course, I want people to have health care,” Vinson said. “I just didn’t realize I would be the one who was going to pay for it personally.”

People aren’t lovin’ that Obamacare free stuff anymore, libfree.

It will only get worse.

VibrioCocci on October 8, 2013 at 8:33 AM

libfreeordie on October 8, 2013 at 8:10 AM

A delightful friend just posted this on my facebook…

Dems 2009: Elections have consequences.
Dems 2009: We will crush the Republicans.
Dems 2009: When you have power you have to use it.
Dems 2011: Everything is the Republicans fault.
Dems 2011: We will not negotiate with Republicans.
Dems 2011: We have to invoke the nuclear option to get our way.
Dems 2012: Republicans are racist.
Dems 2013: Why won’t Republicans just do what we want?
Dems 2013: We will just bypass the constitution for the good of the country.

libfreeordie today: OMGS why won’t the Republicans just negotiate with US?!?!!?

Skywise on October 8, 2013 at 8:33 AM

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:30 AM

No it doesn’t. However, since hardly any of the humongous Fed balance sheet actually has made it in to the economy it has not been an inflationary policy yet. That could change in a hurry. Must one ruinous policy be compounded by another?

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:34 AM

Oh and btw, libfreeordie? Perhaps you’d care to explain how Reid can, constitutionally, originate a budget bill in the Senate?

Because I’m sure if he was a Republican you’d be attacking him for violating the constitutional process you claim you so dearly uphold. Remember? You protest and fight for your rights because you’re a dogooder? Remember? You support the democratic constitutional process that put Republicans in charge of the house of 2010?

Remember that?

Sure ya do…

Skywise on October 8, 2013 at 8:35 AM

libfreeordie on October 8, 2013 at 8:10 AM

A delightful me reposted the following for maybe the 50th time.

Here’s a simple question for you. Which of the founding fathers did not subscribe to the communitarian ethos Calhoun deploys to rationalize slavery? *sets sundial*

libfreeordie on August 21, 2013 at 9:30 AM

None. They weren’t nascent Commies like John C. Calhoun, and full blown Commies like you. Don’t you think you need to provide some proof for such a ridiculous smear there Mr. Calhoun? You’re a history perfesser, right?

NotCoach on August 21, 2013 at 9:36 AM

Oh dear God….hold on, give me 10 minutes.

libfreeordie on August 21, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Almost 1,152 hours later and hilarity is still ensuing! Most people fold after having their bluff called, but not you! Stay the course trooper!

NotCoach on October 8, 2013 at 8:37 AM

Why doesent Barky just deem the debt ceiling raised?

elowe on October 8, 2013 at 8:39 AM

While true that the US cannot and will not “default” on our debt obligations, that is a pedantic point. Failure to raise the debt limit will have catastrophically dire consequences for ours and the world’s credit markets.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:22 AM

Yeah, no it won’t.

NotCoach on October 8, 2013 at 8:40 AM

NotCoach on October 8, 2013 at 8:40 AM

Thanks. I feel much better about it now :-)

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM

H.J.RES.47 Increasing the statutory limit on the public debt.
Latest Major Action: Became Public Law No: 109-182

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HJ00047:@@@L&summ2=m&

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00054

Senate Vote Date: March 16, 2006, 11:17 AM
NAYs —48 ALL DEMOCRATS
Akaka (D-HI)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Burns (R-MT)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carper (D-DE)
Clinton (D-NY)
Coburn (R-OK)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Ensign (R-NV)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Obama (D-IL)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Salazar (D-CO)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Wyden (D-OR)

ITguy on October 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM

Hillarious because there isn’t one bit of truth in the “timeline.” But you’re a worthless troll, nobody takes you seriously.

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:17 AM

Well, libfree is a professor of history so we shouldn’t expect anything but fact-free propaganda.

These days you’re lucky if libfree even comments on the topic at hand (maybe tomorrow he’ll succeed).

gwelf on October 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM

The House should pass $25 billion extensions to the debt limit with $5 billion per year reductions in the total size of the government attached to each and every one of them.
Then they should pass individual agency budgets and go home.

astonerii on October 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:34 AM

So, are you saying that the article in Forbes citing FOMC policy is wrong?

How much debt do you think we, as a country, should have? At what level, do even you say that ‘enough is enough’?

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:42 AM

This is of vital importance to our nation and must be passed immediately! It affects the confidence that lenders and user of the dollar as a reserve currency can have in the full faith and credit of the US. It is not something to be trifled with.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:20 AM

Because the world comes to an end if the US only spends $3 trillion this year instead of $3.8 trillion. Because printing an excess $4 trillion, because no one is buying our debt, raises confidence among lenders and is peachy keen when it comes to our (more and more former) status as a reserve currency.

MNHawk on October 8, 2013 at 8:42 AM

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:42 AM

I haven’t read the Forbes article.

I doubt you got the gist of what I am saying.

1. The Fed’s money printing is not yet inflationary because there is no demand for money in our economy, apart from the Federal government. This could change and trigger runaway inflation. It has little top nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

2. A failure to raise the debt limit could immediately dry up demand for US treasuries sparking an immediate and major, global crisis.

These are separate issues.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:45 AM

MNHawk on October 8, 2013 at 8:42 AM

No. The debt limit does not control or have much of anything to do with how much of our money the Feds spend. It is a dangerous and irresponsible tool to use as leverage to try to limit spending.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:47 AM

so if the obamacare mandate is a tax, how can any spending bill originating in the senate fly if $ goes to paying for obamacare? sounds like the cr couldn’t go toward obamacare and would in essence defund it. is this the way to think about or am i way off?

gracie on October 8, 2013 at 8:47 AM

Thanks. I feel much better about it now :-)

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM

Default is the only concern, and default isn’t going to happen. Whatever negative impacts failing to raise the debt limit have will be related to short term uncertainty, but even that will be minimal or muted.

NotCoach on October 8, 2013 at 8:48 AM

@Notcoach

I mostly lurk. IT seems that libfree, like his Democrat masters, simply lives in the moment, ignoring what he has said in the past for his talking points today.

The_Livewire on October 8, 2013 at 8:48 AM

You are fear-mongering. Why?

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:23 AM

Because there is very good reason to be good and scared!

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:24 AM

There is a huge difference between being concerned and inciting panic. At this point you are screaming “Fire!” in a crowded movie theater because somebody lit a match. This is the tactic the lazy stupid coward in the White House was doing last week.

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:49 AM

Speaking of Healthcare:

Sen. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., says he feels ‘great’ after emergency heart surgery; routine test showed extreme blockage in 5 arteries – @NewsOK

57 secs ago from newsok.com by editor
=========================================

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-sen.-jim-inhofe-says-he-feels-great-after-emergency-heart-surgery/article/3891171

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 8:49 AM

No. The debt limit does not control or have much of anything to do with how much of our money the Feds spend. It is a dangerous and irresponsible tool to use as leverage to try to limit spending.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:47 AM

Now this is just simply a bald faced lie. If we’ve reached our borrowing limit we stop deficit spending, period. That probably means parts of the government shut down, but that’s a good thing.

NotCoach on October 8, 2013 at 8:50 AM

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:49 AM

Exactly right.

kingsjester on October 8, 2013 at 8:50 AM

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:49 AM

I am yelling FIRE because someone lit a lighted match while sitting in that crowded theater (in which we all are sitting) on a keg of high explosives!

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:52 AM

@Notcoach

I mostly lurk. IT seems that libfree, like his Democrat masters, simply lives in the moment, ignoring what he has said in the past for his talking points today.

The_Livewire on October 8, 2013 at 8:48 AM

I just want to rub his nose in it. Most sane people would at least admit defeat or error. A prideful leftist is incapable of such. No wonder they’re always wrong. They are incapable of learning from their mistakes.

NotCoach on October 8, 2013 at 8:52 AM

I am yelling FIRE because someone lit a lighted match while sitting in that crowded theater (in which we all are sitting) on a keg of high explosives!

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:52 AM

Go do it on a street corner somewhere holding up a sandwich board.

NotCoach on October 8, 2013 at 8:53 AM

NotCoach on October 8, 2013 at 8:53 AM

And it’s just a river in Egypt.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:55 AM

I haven’t read the Forbes article.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:45 AM

But, you said that it wasn’t true.

I doubt you got the gist of what I am saying.

Right, ‘cuz, like, um, ya know, I’m stupid or something.

1. The Fed’s money printing is not yet inflationary because there is no demand for money in our economy, apart from the Federal government. This could change and trigger runaway inflation. It has little top nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

I said, citing Forbes, that the Fed INTENDS to devalue the currency by 33% over the next 20 years.

You brought up creditors and users of the currency and full faith and credit.

If the Fed intends to devalue the currency, why should creditors and users of it not question ‘the full faith and credit of the US’?

2. A failure to raise the debt limit could immediately dry up demand for US treasuries sparking an immediate and major, global crisis.

I know that the debt ceiling has to be raised. I just don’t like it. I also believe, like an overwhelming majority of Americans that there should be strings attached. I will no quietly enable the Federal government to continue with its destructionary policies and generational theft.

The hysteria about default, however, is just that. We take in far more money than our debt service.

These are separate issues.

Yes, they are…but then, in another way, they aren’t. If you want to act like Argentina, be prepared to pay the price for it…one way or another.

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:55 AM

The House should pass $25 billion extensions to the debt limit with $5 billion per year reductions in the total size of the government attached to each and every one of them.
Then they should pass individual agency budgets and go home.

astonerii on October 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM

what’s them? i don’t quite get what you have said.

gracie on October 8, 2013 at 8:57 AM

The hysteria about default, however,

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 8:55 AM

I have repeatedly stated that default will not happen, with or without a debt limit increase.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:57 AM

Well, libfree is a professor of history so we shouldn’t expect anything but fact-free propaganda.

These days you’re lucky if libfree even comments on the topic at hand (maybe tomorrow he’ll succeed).

gwelf on October 8, 2013 at 8:41 AM

History? Really? Because my undergrad degree is in history and there is nothing in his posts that suggests an understanding of history beyond what one can find printed on a placemat at the local diner. Right next to the “maze” that Helen Keller could navigate and a few fun facts.

However, I did think of libfree when I read this

Happy Nomad on October 8, 2013 at 8:58 AM

Frankly I don’t see why the libs and the isolationists are that afraid of defaulting anyway…

They’ve been screaming that America has too much power in the world and that we shouldn’t be the world’s policemen always getting into wars and throwing our weight around on poor Venezuela…

Well, if we default, that’ll solve that problem right quick.

Skywise on October 8, 2013 at 9:04 AM

It is a dangerous and irresponsible tool to use as leverage to try to limit spending.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:47 AM

Except for the fact that it isn’t anything new…

Who said this?

‘Congress is trapped on the question of raising the national debt by one of its own legislative tricks — postponing disagreeable decisions until the last hours of rush to adjournment when there is no further time for deliberation and the situation is ripe for trading.’

President Eisenhower, 1953.

Who was president when this was written?

‘With the Senate entangled in a filibuster over natural gas prices, Congress let the Friday midnight deadline slip by without passing final legislation to raise the debt ceiling.

‘Our intention is to continue…,’ said Sen. Howard Metzenhaum, D-Ohio, who is leading the filibuster with Sen. James Abourezk, D-S.D. ‘I guess we could continue the filibuster for another week, 10 days, maybe two weeks without much trouble.’

- The Associated Press

Jimmy Carter, September, 1977.

FTR: Congressional Democrats eventually relented, and a temporary debt limit increase was signed into law on October 4, three days after the statutory deadline.

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 9:05 AM

POUND, POUND, POUND…..

Keep up the phone calls, and social media assault on these Congress critters.

Twitter, FB pages, calls to their LOCAL OFFICES, emails, and even snail mail if you have too.

Remember Alinsky Rules, # 4 and #8 below…

“Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.”

“Keep the pressure on. Never let up.”

PappyD61 on October 8, 2013 at 9:05 AM

I have repeatedly stated that default will not happen, with or without a debt limit increase.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:57 AM

It won’t, but scream at the top of your lungs anyway.

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 9:06 AM

Boehner out to come right out and say the House won’t consider it. And he ought to remind Reid that the CR is not about what Obama wants, but what Americans need — a growing economy with full-time jobs — not out of control spending and deficits as far as the eye can see.

Then end it with “Without jobs, no one, not even the government, can afford the Democrats’ Affordable Care Act.”

Dusty on October 8, 2013 at 9:07 AM

…..and we’re going to have to do the same thing over AMNESTY too.

Paul Ryan and his offices MUST feel the political heat.

Janesville, WI 53545
Toll-Free: 1-888-909-RYAN (7926)
Phone: (608) 752-4050

Racine, WI 53403
Phone: (262) 637-0510

PappyD61 on October 8, 2013 at 9:07 AM

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 9:06 AM

I haven’t witnessed a dissection like that, since I used to videotape surgeries at a hosptipal.

Please, carry on.

kingsjester on October 8, 2013 at 9:10 AM

“hospital”

kingsjester on October 8, 2013 at 9:11 AM

So, if the House amends the bill (with anything), will Reid screech that it must be a clean raising of the debt ceiling, and refuse to go to conference? This would be a great bill to go to conference on because it cannot contain any tax hikes (having originated in the Senate).

Fenris on October 8, 2013 at 9:11 AM

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 9:05 AM

So the world didn’t explode in 1953? Or are you saying that the Carter years were the good old days?

Did we have a national debt that was over 80% of GDP in the past? Did we ever before have a government that was so dependant on borrowing money to cover trillion dollar annual deficits? Out of control government is the cause of this crisis, but limiting the debt ceiling will not reduce spending in anything but a crash.

Much like falling out of a 10th story window; the ground will stop your fall but I wouldn’t recommend it as a plan. Dismiss the dangers at your peril. It is different this time.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 9:12 AM

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 9:12 AM

It’s always ‘different this time’!

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 9:13 AM

Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said, “What does short-term buy us? That buys us Thanksgiving in Washington.”

Aw, poor thing. Look at it this way, Dick…consider it another opportunity to liken our troops to Nazis, as you’ve been known to do in the past.

changer1701 on October 8, 2013 at 9:14 AM

Resist We Much on October 8, 2013 at 9:13 AM

It’s different this time because we have had 5 years of President Barack Obama.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 9:22 AM

[Dusty on October 8, 2013 at 9:07 AM]

Darn, I meant DL not CR.

I don’t think the DL should stand alone and be separate from the CR though. The two should be as one, and the CR should be tied to staying under any DL established, so that if the will be the upper limit to whatever appropriations are made.

There are benefits to not letting the Dems have more than one time to ask for more money and allows the House to resist any further spending bills in any manner other than pay-as-you-go or finding other places to cut.

Dusty on October 8, 2013 at 9:28 AM

If ANY Repub votes with Harry he or she is TOAST! Already John Cornyn is putting out radio ads here in Texas about how conservative he is. He is a dead man walking, politically that is. The same fate awaits any squishy RINO or GOPe cowards. Hold firm and don’t falter.

neyney on October 8, 2013 at 9:50 AM

Senate dems just got sold out a little by the spite house. They were shocked, really? It’s what our dear leader does, and that he is willing to do it to his own shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone. He has his own agenda that is sharply more far left and intends to cripple the country for decades to come. Those on the slightly right should take note that we the people have long memories and are taking names.

Kissmygrits on October 8, 2013 at 9:53 AM

Much like falling out of a 10th story window; the ground will stop your fall but I wouldn’t recommend it as a plan. Dismiss the dangers at your peril. It is different this time.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 9:12 AM

You do realize that this process is inevitable?

The only thing you two are debating is what date it will happen.

17 trillion says we have already jumped out the window.

Increasing the debt ceiling just reduces our coefficient of drag while we fall.

Difficultas_Est_Imperium on October 8, 2013 at 9:57 AM

Failure to raise the debt limit will have catastrophically dire consequences for ours and the world’s credit markets.

MJBrutus on October 8, 2013 at 8:22 AM

The worlds credit markets are being maintained by accounting gimmicks. Their true state is “bankrupt”.

What we’re being fed by governments and the MSM is akin to a flight attendant offering a pillow and a Coke as the plane is careening to the ground.

Don’t look out the window, just enjoy your Coke and the movie. Its free.

BobMbx on October 8, 2013 at 10:14 AM

US government shutdown impact 2013

3 of 4 staffers furloughed at White House due to shutdown – @AP

1 min ago from bigstory.ap.org by editor

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 10:16 AM

US debt ceiling debate 2013

Report: Senate Democrats to unveil plan that will allow the government to borrow an additional $1 trillion – @AP

6 mins ago from bigstory.ap.org by editor
=============================================

http://www.breakingnews.com/

https://twitter.com/AP

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 10:17 AM

US government shutdown impact 2013

36 Senate Democrat offices closed during the shutdown, compared to 7 Senate GOP offices – @HuffingtonPost

10 mins ago from http://www.huffingtonpost.com by editor
=====================================================

http://www.breakingnews.com/

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 10:18 AM

Still,………………………….D.O.A.:

US government funding debate 2013

House Speaker Boehner on new fiscal talks with President Obama: ‘There’s nothing on the table, there’s nothing off the table’ – @Reuters

1 min ago by editor
========================

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Ignore what the Senate does, Mr. Boehner. Keep offering CRs for NIH and straighten out the combat pay baloney.

BTW folks, Veterans are marching on DC this weekend.

dogsoldier on October 8, 2013 at 10:26 AM

A delightful friend on Facebook posted this. Its rather hilarious

libfreeordie on October 8, 2013 at 8:10 AM

Apparently your friend suffers from the strange delusion that the only presence of healthcare in the entire nation is Obamacare.

Good thing all those doctors and hospitals sprang into existence on March 23, 2010. I don’t know how we ever got by with no healthcare for the first 400 years living here.

The Schaef on October 8, 2013 at 10:26 AM

http://www DOT infowars DOT com/police-arrest-veterans-at-nyc-memorial/

dogsoldier on October 8, 2013 at 10:28 AM

this link may be better but has less pictures:

http://nypost.com/2013/07/09/ny-vets-at-war-over-memorial-arrests/

dogsoldier on October 8, 2013 at 10:29 AM

Note: There is lingering confusion over the limits on the Senate regarding budgets. It’s true that the House has to originate bills that raise revenue (Article I Section 7 of the US Constitution), but either chamber can originate spending bills. Since the debt ceiling is not a tax, the Senate can originate it. Thanks to SteveEgg in the comments for pointing out the confusion.

i agree w/ this reading of the Constitution but it isnt entirely cut and dried. andrew mccarthy thinks all revenue and spending bills must come from the house. he had an article at NRO last week on this and then he and matthew franck (who thinks its revenue only) had a nice little back and forth on the matter

chasdal on October 8, 2013 at 10:55 AM

Note: There is lingering confusion over the limits on the Senate regarding budgets. It’s true that the House has to originate bills that raise revenue (Article I Section 7 of the US Constitution), but either chamber can originate spending bills. Since the debt ceiling is not a tax, the Senate can originate it. Thanks to SteveEgg in the comments for pointing out the confusion.

It’s not just a matter of confusion. It’s more a matter of controversy. The Constitution does not explicitly say that the Senate can originate spending bills as long as they don’t raise revenue. What it does say is that bills that raise revenue must originate in the House.

There’s a case to be made that a bill that requires spending is in fact raising revenue, even if it doesn’t raise taxes directly. For instance, if the spending increase forces borrowing a substantial amount of money, then it is in fact raising revenue through borrowing rather than through direct taxation.

For instance, could the Senate pass a law creating a guaranteed income for everybody? Such a law would not directly create a tax, but would inevitably lead to a tax.

There Goes the Neighborhood on October 8, 2013 at 11:10 AM

US debt ceiling debate 2013
US government funding debate 2013

House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, aide: Obama called Boehner Tuesday, says he won’t negotiate on shutdown, debt ceiling – @AP

7 mins ago by editor

canopfor on October 8, 2013 at 11:32 AM

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