AP fact check: No, you can’t keep your plan, and other things we should have already reported

posted at 2:01 pm on September 30, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

With just one day left to go before the federal government makes health insurance mandatory through its glitchy and unsecured exchanges, the Associated Press decided to do a fact check on recent claims by politicians on both sides of the issue. Among the fact checks is one on Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA), who pointed out last week that one of the biggest promises Barack Obama made was that the reforms wouldn’t disrupt existing health-insurance plans — “If you like your plan, you can keep your plan.”  Republicans have been debunking that for four years, but the AP finally gets around to fact-checking McCarthy (via Twitchy):

THE FACTS: McCarthy is correct, Obama said exactly that. It was an empty promise, made repeatedly. Sebelius picks her words more carefully but still offers misleading assurances.

Nothing in the health care law guarantees that people can keep the health insurance they already have. Costs can rise, benefits can change and employers can drop coverage.

Insurance policies that are offered must now meet minimum standards, covering more preventive services, for example, and larger employers that don’t offer insurance to workers will face penalties when that provision of the law, delayed by Obama, comes into effect. But that doesn’t mean the status quo goes on for those who like what they’ve got now.

This was one of the biggest falsehoods proferred by ObamaCare advocates all along.  In the US before passage of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, 85% of Americans had existing health-care coverage — and 87% were happy with it.  In fact, half of the uninsured were happy with their health care.  Overhauling the system that satisfied 85% of Americans in order to do something with half of the 15% unhappy with their situation only made sense if the 85% could be assured that their situation would remain the same.

Of course, that was nonsense all along.  Too bad the AP couldn’t have done more fact-checking along those lines before now.  They could have easily dispensed with this canard, too:

OBAMA: “Premiums are going to be different in different parts of the country depending on how much coverage you buy, but 95 percent of uninsured Americans will see their premiums cost less than was expected.” — Largo, Md., speech.

THE FACTS: Less than who expected? Obama is referring to an administration analysis that finds premiums are coming in 16 percent lower than had been estimated by experts at the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. Independent analysts find similar results. But it’s a stretch to suggest that numbers crunched by CBO’s experts would reflect the expectations of regular consumers.

The AP doesn’t even bother to report the biggest part of this lie, which is the “less than expected” calculation used by HHS.  Instead of calculating the announced 2014 premiums to 2014 projections, they compared them to projections for 2016. The actual expectation set by the Obama administration and Democratic leadership was that premiums would decline across the board after the implementation of ObamaCare, but instead they have skyrocketed.

Now Democrats like Nancy Pelosi argue that they never made that promise, but John Boehner’s office has a new video that makes it pretty clear:

There is one new frontier in this fact-check, however, which is the new White House talking point about cell-phone bills.  Obama and his supporters claim that health care will be about as expensive as a cell-phone bill under the new exchanges, but that’s leaving out a lot of out-of-pocket expenses:

He is referring to the cheapest of four major options offered by the new markets, the “bronze” plan. But, just like with auto insurance, premiums aren’t the only potential expense for a consumer. Those who choose bronze will have to pay 40 percent of their medical bills out of pocket through deductibles and copayments. A family’s share of medical costs could go as high as $12,700 a year, or $6,350 for individuals, on top of those cell-phone-like premiums.

Plans that cost more in premiums have the same caps on annual out-of-pocket expenses, but they cover more of the bills along the way. The platinum plan, which is the best, pays 90 percent of medical bills, for example.

They’re just like your cell-phone bills … if your phone gets stolen and used to make a lot of calls to Japan or France.


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I will not comply because I am a free citizen of the United States, not a subject of its government. I consider non-compliance with this monstrosity and the tens of thousands of pages of regulations that are to be enforced by an unelected bureaucracy, and that have left a gigantic carbon footprint on our environment and the United States Constitution, a duty.

Non-compliance is my executive order, and that order reads in part that I do not recognize any government’s claim on my action or inaction in the marketplace, nor upon any personal information I am unwilling to divulge.

Schadenfreude on September 30, 2013 at 2:04 PM

So sick of her ugly smug mug…

OmahaConservative on September 30, 2013 at 2:05 PM

BUCK FARACK

Nutstuyu on September 30, 2013 at 2:06 PM

Obama and his supporters claim that health care will be about as expensive as a cell-phone bill

If by cell phone bill you mean two round trip tickets to Hong Kong.

fogw on September 30, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Not gonna happen. Starve! Tuna!!!

Bmore on September 30, 2013 at 2:07 PM

the AP finally gets around to fact-checking

Only took FOUR years. Guess that’s what AP calls “Breaking NEWS!”

GarandFan on September 30, 2013 at 2:08 PM

BUCK FARACK

I see a bumper sticker

LeftCoastRight on September 30, 2013 at 2:08 PM

Schadenfreude on September 30, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Know of any letter templates for refusing Obamacare, like something that cites all the exemptions Zero granted and applying to them all people through the Equal Protection clause?

Nutstuyu on September 30, 2013 at 2:09 PM

So, Boehner wants to make political gain out of this? For what purpose? Keeping his big office? What about gains to we the people? Or are we just facilitators of his and his cronies government goodies? Is he going to ever come up with a realistic plan for a limited government solution to any problem facing this nation, first and foremost, Obamacare?

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:09 PM

I will not comply because I am a free citizen of the United States, not a subject of its government.

Schadenfreude on September 30, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Non-compliance isn’t really an option. We have to comply if we want medical insurance because the insurance companies are complying and we are forced to choose from one of the crappy policies mandated by Obamacare.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Schadenfreude on September 30, 2013 at 2:04 PM

So you’re going to pay the mandate penalty and get no health benefits out of it out of principle? Well OK then.

libfreeordie on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Why there is not an uprising is both amazing and sad.

bgibbs1000 on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Now Democrats like Nancy Pelosi argue that they never made that promise, but John Boehner’s office has a new video that makes it pretty clear:

A pretty good video if Boehner were determined to go to the mattresses over delay of the individual mandate. I have my doubts.

Happy Nomad on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

So you’re going to pay the mandate penalty and get no health benefits out of it out of principle? Well OK then.

libfreeordie on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Non-compliance would be not paying the penalty or buying insurance. There is no enforcement mechanism in the law for collecting the penalty anyway. Unless King Obama takes it upon himself to make one up. But I’m sure that won’t happen. Right?

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:13 PM

I’m a doctor. Let me explain a little about what is going to happen over the next year. First of all, doctors and hospitals are being paid 75% less than they were 25 years ago. This makes them very unstable businesses. Banks will not make loans to doctors or hospitals in many areas. Obamacare is a red herring now. Even if Omamacare is repealed, healthcare will collapse in one year. The strains the secretary of health has already put on medicine thorugh tech and HIPPA requirements has already made most unstable. Oct. 1rst 2014 the new “coding initiative” put forth by them will cause a complete collapse of heathcare reimbursment for up to 6 months. Most businesses will collapse within the first six weeks. Almost all will be gone in 3 months. That includes huge city hospital and healthcare systems. It will be like nothing you’ve ever seen and even if Obamacare is repealed today, It still is going to happen.It’s called ICD-10 if you want to google it.

Redglen on September 30, 2013 at 2:14 PM

Slave, hoops at no charge.

Bmore on September 30, 2013 at 2:14 PM

A pretty good video if Boehner were determined to go to the mattresses over delay of the individual mandate. I have my doubts.

Happy Nomad on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

He just wants to use it as theatre so that he can keep his big office. And he doesn’t actually want to do anything about it because (1) that would run the risk of doing political damage to him; and (2) then he wouldn’t be able to trot this video out to try to drum up support anymore.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:15 PM

the AP finally gets around to fact-checking

Only took FOUR years. Guess that’s what AP calls “Breaking NEWS!”

GarandFan on September 30, 2013 at 2:08 PM

Guess that means we’re going to have to wait….

….another couple of years for the AP to start asking questions about Fast and Furious…

….three more years for the AP to look at the budget and deficit issues – including the last Senate budget being passed in April 2009…

….another 4 or 5 more years before they start asking questions about the abandonment and murder of 4 Americans in a terror attack in Benghazi that had nothing to do with an obscure internet video…

….and who knows if they will ever start investigating the legality or ethics of the waivers and exemptions unilaterally granted by the Obama WH to so many of their favored special interest groups?

Athos on September 30, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Schadenfreude on September 30, 2013 at 2:04 PM

So you’re going to pay the mandate penalty and get no health benefits out of it out of principle? Well OK then.

libfreeordie on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

This is going to be good.

davidk on September 30, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Now Democrats like Nancy Pelosi argue that they never made that promise,

Barky promised that his national socialization of health insurance/care would “reduce monthly premiums by 3000%!!”.

… I guess you can’t really hold a math illiterate to statements about numbers (especially when they make no sense to even a normal 7th grader) … but he was clearly pushing the deranged fantasy that insurance costs were going to drop precipitously. Of course, anyone with a brain knew that what Barky was trying to say (if he had more than two brain cells he would have correctly stated it) was a transparent lie that only the dimmest among us (i.e. Barky supporters) could even consider possible.

I am so sick of having anything to do with these America-hating morons. I want a national divorce to be rid of these brainless vermin. Let them have their own country to turn into Jakarta or Mumbasa. We need to split so that an American Constitutional Republic can be restored for Americans. THis American Socialist Superstate is the A.S.S. of the world.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on September 30, 2013 at 2:18 PM

I’m a doctor. Let me explain a little about what is going to happen over the next year. First of all, doctors and hospitals are being paid 75% less than they were 25 years ago. This makes them very unstable businesses. Banks will not make loans to doctors or hospitals in many areas. Obamacare is a red herring now. Even if Omamacare is repealed, healthcare will collapse in one year.

Redglen on September 30, 2013 at 2:14 PM

This is why I’m pushing for at least one of my kids to be a doctor. Just for our family. I don’t see how this system is sustainable – and anyone who wants medical care had better be able to pay cash for a doctor, or have someone in their family that is a doctor.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:19 PM

Sorry Associated Press, but your credibility is all gone.

rbj on September 30, 2013 at 2:19 PM

Non-compliance isn’t really an option. We have to comply if we want medical insurance because the insurance companies are complying and we are forced to choose from one of the crappy policies mandated by Obamacare.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

No, you don’t. Self-insure. Save your money for your medical bills. Take care of yourself. Negotiate cash-only discounts with your doctors. Most doctors are very happy to give steep discounts to people paying cash. Don’t answer on your tax return whether you have insurance or not. Leave it blank but pay everything else you owe.

I have a relative who is 64 and has never had health insurance, he has been living in the underground all-cash economy for 40 years. He works for cash, pays cash for everything and that has included advanced tests when he had chest pains. Our government has no idea how many are doing this already, and how many more are about to.

rockmom on September 30, 2013 at 2:20 PM

So you’re going to pay the mandate penalty and get no health benefits out of it out of principle? Well OK then.

libfreeordie on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

First off, there is no penalty. If you don’t have any money coming back in your tax return there is no penalty to be paid.

Second off, define health benefits. Where are the benefits in paying steep deductibles on top of outrageous premiums? Most of us are better off paying for care out of pocket. And those currently uninsured certainly won’t see any benefit in signing up for this crap sandwich. And without them signing up the whole thing implodes.

Thirdly:

Here’s a simple question for you. Which of the founding fathers did not subscribe to the communitarian ethos Calhoun deploys to rationalize slavery? *sets sundial*

libfreeordie on August 21, 2013 at 9:30 AM

None. They weren’t nascent Commies like John C. Calhoun, and full blown Commies like you. Don’t you think you need to provide some proof for such a ridiculous smear there Mr. Calhoun? You’re a history perfesser, right?

NotCoach on August 21, 2013 at 9:36 AM

Oh dear God….hold on, give me 10 minutes.

libfreeordie on August 21, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Almost 965 hours and still waiting? Well OK then.

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 2:22 PM

Ha ha ha. Do you know how small the mandate penalty is?

Why should he avoid paying $100 per year in order to avoid paying $4,000 for health insurance that he doesn’t need? If he gets hurt or ill, he can simply purchase insurance then.

blink on September 30, 2013 at 2:20 PM

You can avoid the mandate penalty entirely. See my above post.

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 2:23 PM

Thanks for nothing…. and we have another 3 years of this idiot

Let it burn…. no delays

Squishy gop screwing itup

cmsinaz on September 30, 2013 at 2:23 PM

So you’re going to pay the mandate penalty and get no health benefits out of it out of principle? Well OK then.

libfreeordie on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

I

No, I’ll buy a high deductible plan, pay my own out of pocket and laugh at the IRS attempts to collect the penalty tax, since the ACA provides the IRS with precisely NO enforcement powers to collect. So much for the individual “mandate” and the “penalty” to “encourage” enrollment in gov’t approved plans.

Have a nice day.

Upstreamer on September 30, 2013 at 2:24 PM

Here’s the REAL video about Barky claiming the magical cost reductions (to well BELOW 0!!!) of BarkyCare.

The mathematically illiterate promise starts at 1:05.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on September 30, 2013 at 2:24 PM

rockmom on September 30, 2013 at 2:20 PM

And those who pay cash tend to pay a lot less as well because third and fourth parties serve only to inflate costs.

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 2:24 PM

So you’re going to pay the mandate penalty and get no health benefits out of it out of principle? Well OK then.

libfreeordie on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

I won’t have to pay the penalty (Obama Vacay) and I can write a cheque for my healthcare expenses.

Sounds like it sucks to be you. I guess that’s what happens to a Gender/Race Studies grad.

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 2:26 PM

This is going to be good.

davidk on September 30, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Only if Schad scrapes that dog shit off of the bottom of his shoe.

Anything else is a waste of time. You can neither educate, nor embarrass/humiliate, a slave of the State.

OhEssYouCowboys on September 30, 2013 at 2:26 PM

No, you don’t. Self-insure. Save your money for your medical bills. Take care of yourself. Negotiate cash-only discounts with your doctors. Most doctors are very happy to give steep discounts to people paying cash. Don’t answer on your tax return whether you have insurance or not. Leave it blank but pay everything else you owe.

rockmom on September 30, 2013 at 2:20 PM

I’m not going to risk not having insurance for something that costs $50K+. I’d buy insurance that covers anything over $50K if I could. But I can’t under Obamacare. However, I’m not going without catastrophic insurance, so I have to buy what the insurance companies offer. We’ve had some catastrophic or potentially catastrophic events in the last year, so that is not a risk that I’m willing to take (especially since I have 6 very active kids who seem to like to injure themselves).

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:27 PM

Too late, AP. Bronco was reelected. But they already know that.

astronmr20 on September 30, 2013 at 2:29 PM

I won’t have to pay the penalty (Obama Vacay) and I can write a cheque for my healthcare expenses.

Sounds like it sucks to be you. I guess that’s what happens to a Gender/Race Studies grad.

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 2:26 PM

I think he still doesn’t know what’s in the law despite it having been passed.

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 2:29 PM

There is no way to educate some slaves. Let it starve, all of its ilk. Lolz!!!

Bmore on September 30, 2013 at 2:29 PM

Second verse same as the first: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/09/30/sen_boxer_government_shutdown_threat_war_on_women.html

‘Ma’am’ Boxer, was it a ‘War on Women’ when EVERY BLOODY DEMOCRAT in the Senate voted NOT to raise the debt ceiling in 2006?

Chart of the Day: How Did Senators Vote Concerning The Debt Limit In 2006?

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 2:30 PM

I do IT work on contract. My consulting company offers a health care plan, but the premium is extremely high with a high deductible, so I opted for an individual plan from BCBS with a low deductible for 2/3rd the price. The problem is that I signed up for the plan after the new healthcare law went into effect. I just received a letter saying that because of this, my plan will not be grandfathered and will be canceled sometime in the future. So basically, I am going to be forced to either buy into the exchange or buy the prohibitively expensive employer plan. The funny thing is that in NC, the only health insurance offered in the exchange will be BCBS.

BohicaTwentyTwo on September 30, 2013 at 2:31 PM

Self-insuring makes quite a bit of sense. Most people have less than $300 per month of medical expenses.

blink on September 30, 2013 at 2:26 PM

Yeah. Most years. But this year, I’ve paid out of pocket $30K+. Bad things can happen, and I’m not going without catastrophic insurance.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:32 PM

Barky promised that his national socialization of health insurance/care would “reduce monthly premiums by 3000%!!”.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on September 30, 2013 at 2:18 PM

But it made perfect sense to the hordes of Barky voters in our Idiocracy – “I dont read cursive, but um a three oh, um new skoo, you ole skooo”. (she dont do no math eitha)

dentarthurdent on September 30, 2013 at 2:32 PM

Halperin: Obama Okay with Shutdown Because Media Has His Back

If the press isn’t going to be ‘free,’ then it should have to forfeit its First Amendment rights.

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 2:33 PM

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:27 PM

Yep. BarkyCare makes sure that real health insurance (just coverage for major events) doesn’t exist. They leave no alternative. As you state, going uninsured isn’t really an option for anyone with assets. Just a weird accident could make those all disappear.

Of course, BarkyCare couldn’t allow low-cost major medical insurance, since the young folks who were forced to purchase some sort of insurance would buy those and that wouldn’t be enough cash to fund the giveaways and the rest of the insanity forced on insurance companies.

But … we all knew all of this from the beginning, which is why I was so ticked at Boner for not having forced even a single full reading of any of the myriad 2000+ page bills on the House floor to try and stop this anti-American disaster. The guy didn’t do jack as minority leader.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on September 30, 2013 at 2:35 PM

Yeah. Most years. But this year, I’ve paid out of pocket $30K+. Bad things can happen, and I’m not going without catastrophic insurance.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:32 PM

Besides being mandated to buy something for the privilege of existing, your story is what drives me nuts more than anything else about this law. We are being denied choice in order to prop up a gigantic bureaucratic wet dream. Why the Fluke should we be denied the ability to buy only catastrophic insurance if we wanted to do so?

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 2:35 PM

I just received a letter saying that because of this, my plan will not be grandfathered and will be canceled sometime in the future. So basically, I am going to be forced to either buy into the exchange or buy the prohibitively expensive employer plan. The funny thing is that in NC, the only health insurance offered in the exchange will be BCBS.

BohicaTwentyTwo on September 30, 2013 at 2:31 PM

I don’t know about anyone being grandfathered in on any private plan – I’ve received the same letter. And the “future” is next year.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:36 PM

Why there is not an uprising is both amazing and sad.

bgibbs1000 on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

There WAS an uprising in 2009 and 2010. Obama’s IRS Gestapo Brigade brought an end to all THAT nonsense.

Key West Reader on September 30, 2013 at 2:37 PM

Opposing Obamacare Isn’t Anarchy

By Jonah Goldberg

‘It’s the law of the land.”

This is rapidly becoming the preferred shorthand argument for why criticism of Obamacare is just so, so wrong. It also serves as the lead sentence of a larger claim that all attempts to overturn the Affordable Care Act are really symptoms of a kind of extremist right-wing lunacy.

Advertisement
For instance, here’s Senate majority leader Harry Reid, who walked out of the painting American Gothic to deliver this homespun wisdom: “We’re not going to bow to tea-party anarchists who deny the mere fact that Obamacare is the law. We will not bow to tea-party anarchists who refuse to accept that the Supreme Court ruled that Obamacare is constitutional.”

Where to begin? For starters, I know a great many self-described members of the Tea Party, and I’ve yet to meet one who would not acknowledge — admittedly with dismay — that Obamacare is the law. Nor have I met one unwilling to concede that the Supreme Court ruled that Obamacare is constitutional. Though from my informal polling, I can report that most think the Court’s reasoning left much to be desired (logic, persuasiveness, consistency, etc.).

Lurking beneath such lazy rhetoric is a nasty psychological insinuation that there’s something deranged not just about opposing Obamacare, but about being a conservative. This is an ancient smear, used to discredit conservatives in order to avoid debating them.

Reid is a dim and sallow man whose tin ear long ago started to rust. But it’s worth pointing out that “anarchy” is not defined in any textbook or dictionary I can find as “the absence of Obamacare.” While, yes, it’s true that Mad Max, most zombie movies, and other post-apocalyptic films are set in worlds without Obamacare, that’s really not the most salient factor.

More to the point, petitioning Congress to repeal a bad law through formal procedures is not the kind of behavior educated people normally associate with anarchism. Indeed, the hypocrisy of liberals who find it somehow “extreme” for citizens to organize peacefully to overturn a law they consider bad and unjust is a marvel to behold. The Fugitive Slave Act was once the law of the land. So was the Defense of Marriage Act. Were those determined to overturn them anarchists?

On an almost daily basis, I get a fundraising e-mail from a Democrat or from liberal outfits begging for help to overturn Citizens United, which in case you hadn’t heard is the law of the land. Why won’t these anarchists and extremists accept that the Supreme Court has ruled? I cannot wait for the Supreme Court to overrule Roe v. Wade, just to hear liberals announce, “Well, the fight is over. The Court has spoken.”

Nearly the whole story of American liberalism is a story of dedicated ideologues seeking to overturn what they consider to be bad laws and replace them with good ones. Sometimes those efforts were laudable, as when they fought to overturn the doctrine of “separate but equal” (despite fierce opposition from Democrats). And sometimes they are lamentable, as when they routinely labor to overturn or deny school-choice laws, consigning underprivileged children to horrible schools just to placate teachers’ unions. But when conservatives try to do the exact same thing, they can’t simply be wrong, according to liberals. They must be demented extremists, anarchists, and — another favorite epithet these days — nihilists.

The hypocrisy goes deeper though. Yes, Obamacare is the law of the land. But it is President Obama — who is legally and constitutionally required to faithfully execute the law — and not Republicans who has openly defied it. He has unilaterally and often with no statutory authority opted to waive and delay the parts of the Affordable Care Act that are politically inconvenient to him (or that his administration has been too incompetent to implement).

Obama has declared that in states setting up their own exchanges, no one will have to prove his income in order to sign up for subsidies. He is so desperate to get the subsidies rolling — and thus, he hopes, buy support for the unpopular law — he’s willing to let people skip the part in the law where it says they have to prove they qualify for the goodies. He delayed the requirement for large businesses to comply with the law because the initial turmoil of having millions kicked off their insurance plans was more than he could bear politically.

While this is closer to anarchy than anything the tea partiers have pushed for, anarchy still isn’t the right word for it. Because President Obama still believes people should obey the law of the land — when it pleases him, that is.

Dead on.

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 2:37 PM

IT’S A COOKBOOK!

Arnold Yabenson on September 30, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Just got a letter last week from my company that our insurance rates are going up 68% next year – which equates to about $80 a month increase for me. Luckily my company pays a good portion of the premiums – for now…..

dentarthurdent on September 30, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Schadenfreude on September 30, 2013 at 2:04 PM

So you’re going to pay the mandate penalty and get no health benefits out of it out of principle? Well OK then.

libfreeordie on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

That’s my plan, too. I’ll pay the fine, but I still maintain that it is none of the federal government’s responsibility, even concern, about the state of my health so long as I am not taking taxpayer charity or carrying a communicable disease or am their direct employee.

It grieves me how far the United States has fallen from her founding principles that, except for slavery (significant, but it was being nudged out even despite the then slave-owning colonies/states), made the United States the beacon of hope for mankind for so many years.

Kevin K. on September 30, 2013 at 2:40 PM

Why not? Just buy health insurance after something catastrophic happens.

blink on September 30, 2013 at 2:34 PM

Because I’m not a leech. Just because others will take advantage and do it doesn’t mean that it is right to do so.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:40 PM

Second verse same as the first: -snip-

davidk on September 30, 2013 at 2:16 PM

NICE reference! If only your current use were as fun as what you’re referring to.

Kevin K. on September 30, 2013 at 2:41 PM

IT’S A COOKBOOK!

Arnold Yabenson on September 30, 2013 at 2:39 PM

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4044/toserveman3.jpg

davidk on September 30, 2013 at 2:42 PM

you can’t pay a doctor $100 to check on your alignment?

blink on September 30, 2013 at 2:28 PM

I wish it were this easy, and that doctors could give you estimates like mechanics and every other contractor does. But they don’t. And because of the John Edwards of the world, doctors run every conceivable test they can to cover their rear ends. So that when you drop in to check on a sore throat, it’s $800 later you find out it was just strep.

John the Libertarian on September 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM

Latest from the AP….

Of course we have credibility, even after lying and shilling for the Obama Administration and the progressive agenda to fundamentally change the US, because today, we told the truth about the Affordable Care Act only three years after it was passed and the day before it takes effect.

We even lied, buried negative stories against Barack Obama, and incessantly attacked Mitt Romney in order to ensure Barack Obama’s re-election in November 2012, but you can trust us now because we finally did one story telling the truth about Obamacare.

We’re going to spend the next weeks and months castigating the GOP, particularly if the government shuts down, delivering the propaganda the WH wants in preparation for ensuring a Democrat takeover of Congress, but we still have credibility, because we finally fact checked Obamacare three years after it was rammed through Congress – and far too late for anyone to do anything about it….

Athos on September 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM

This is all just a farce. There will be as many uninsured people today as next year.

rjoco1 on September 30, 2013 at 2:45 PM

I want to know what jenteel thinks of all this. Let her explain it to the morons that voted for this POS.

VegasRick on September 30, 2013 at 2:45 PM

Are you sure about this? Why wouldn’t the IRS simply add the penalty to the amount of tax owed? For example, if someone owed $200 in taxes, then they would owe $294 if they don’t have health insurance. Why would they make the penalty contingent on the existence of a refund? The law seemed to give them more power than this.

I’ve heard your claim repeated elsewhere, but it doesn’t make sense to me.

blink on September 30, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Because the IRS doesn’t have that authority in the law. Because the Democrats didn’t want to call it a tax.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 2:45 PM

blink on September 30, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Those, who do not have an employer withhold taxes, are incapable of getting a refund because they pay only what they owe. Change your W-2 form and pay your payroll taxes along with your income taxes quarterly or annually.

If you receive a refund, you have your tax status wrong. Getting a refund means:

1) You OVERPAID in the first place; and

2) You gave the government an interest-and-penalty-free loan during that period.

Take note: The reverse of #2 is non-existent. Fail to pay your taxes and you get hit with penalties and interest.

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 2:49 PM

Are you sure about this? Why wouldn’t the IRS simply add the penalty to the amount of tax owed? For example, if someone owed $200 in taxes, then they would owe $294 if they don’t have health insurance. Why would they make the penalty contingent on the existence of a refund? The law seemed to give them more power than this.

I’ve heard your claim repeated elsewhere, but it doesn’t make sense to me.

blink on September 30, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Yes, I’m sure. The IRS has already stated this is how they will collect penalties because the law specifically bars them from pursuing the penalties in any other way.

From http://www.irs.gov:

25. What happens if I do not have minimum essential coverage or an exemption, and I cannot afford to make the payment with my tax return?

The IRS routinely works with taxpayers who owe amounts they cannot afford to pay. The law prohibits the IRS from using liens or levies to collect any payment you owe related to the individual responsibility provision, if you, your spouse or a dependent included on your tax return does not have minimum essential coverage. However, if you owe a shared responsibility payment, the IRS may offset that liability against any tax refund you may be due.

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 2:50 PM

Just keep saying to yourself and others…

health insurance =/= health care

The NHS proves this fact every single day.

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 2:50 PM

So you’re going to pay the mandate penalty and get no health benefits out of it out of principle? Well OK then.

libfreeordie on September 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

You ignoramus! Before Obutthead Care passed I was self-insured, with a pre existing condition I bought all of my pricy medications out of pocket and paid for my doctor visits out of pocket. When Obutthead Care passed things started happening. The price of my medications started to go up every month (primarily insulin) due to the impending rules and regs Obutthead Care put on pharmaceutical companies. These meds are now more than double the cost they were four years ago. I could get a plan and my copays would likely be more than I used to pay without insurance. And I will not insult my doctors by asking them to treat me with Obutthead Care.

If the f%ckhead Democraps would have left things alone this country would have been much better off.

NOMOBO on September 30, 2013 at 2:51 PM

Some are claiming there is no congress exemption.

If not, why this?:

House Republicans are moving toward putting a bill on the floor that would delay the individual mandate and cancel health-insurance subsidies for members of Congress, the president and administration appointees, according to multiple sources.

That bill would be part of a government funding measure to which the Senate would have to agree, which is highly unlikely. Just this afternoon, the Senate rejected the House’s last move this weekend to delay Obamacare and repeal the medical device tax as part of a government funding bill.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/09/house-senate-government-shutdown-97557.html

davidk on September 30, 2013 at 2:51 PM

rockmom on September 30, 2013 at 2:20 PM

Exactly, I was self pay with a pulmonologist recently. The initial visit if you are insured is $402, I paid $150 cash. It is the same with any tests taken at imaging centers etc. My pet scan was $1500 self pay, with insurance it would have been over 4k.

BeachBum on September 30, 2013 at 2:51 PM

Most doctors are very happy to give steep discounts to people paying cash.

My Doctor won’t take cash. She would lose both Tricare and Medicare patients if she did that and got found out. Sucks, but she plays by the rules and doesn’t want to get caught doing that.

Johnnyreb on September 30, 2013 at 2:54 PM

The Ass. Press is a subversive organization…

d1carter on September 30, 2013 at 2:59 PM

So, you don’t ask for tax returns when you’ve paid too much tax? You wouldn’t visit a national park for free? Do you pay a road tax on free highways?

blink on September 30, 2013 at 2:46 PM

Those aren’t even remotely analogous.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 3:01 PM

My Doctor won’t take cash. She would lose both Tricare and Medicare patients if she did that and got found out. Sucks, but she plays by the rules and doesn’t want to get caught doing that.

Johnnyreb on September 30, 2013 at 2:54 PM

It’s not against the rules to pay cash for services. Yet, anyway.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 3:02 PM

Just keep saying to yourself and others…

health insurance =/= health care

The NHS proves this fact every single day.

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 2:50 PM

This is something that cannot be said enough. But, it is a ubiquitous lie among statists.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 3:05 PM

If the f%ckhead Democraps would have left things alone this country would have been much better off.

NOMOBO on September 30, 2013 at 2:51 PM

Said 1965.

98ZJUSMC on September 30, 2013 at 3:11 PM

Overall, your comment has nothing to do with the IRS’ power/system to collect the penalty.

blink on September 30, 2013 at 3:07 PM

The IRS cannot collect mandate penalties except through withholding them from refunds.

It cannot seize your bank account, garnish wages, order employers to collect penalties in a preemptive fashion to head off the failure of people to purchase health insurance, confiscate it from estates, etc. It cannot sue you civilly for the penalty nor can it prosecute you for failing to pay it.

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 3:12 PM

This is something that cannot be said enough. But, it is a ubiquitous lie among statists.

besser tot als rot on September 30, 2013 at 3:05 PM

Which country has universal dental insurance and is renown for its bad teeth?

Resist We Much on September 30, 2013 at 3:14 PM

There used to be a common saying in recruiting in the accounting field…”first you recruit them (BFF’s), then once they sign on you unrecruit them (your BFF wouldn’t P**s on you if you were on fire)”.

Welcome to ObamaCare kids…you have been recruited. Next stage is the unrecruiting phase. You now know first hand how it feels to be a fish. Would be funny if PETA steps in to stop this because of the inevitable pain.

teejk on September 30, 2013 at 3:16 PM

This just means that the IRS can’t use a lien or levy. This doesn’t say that they can’t say that you owe the amount.

In other words, it’s likely that the IRS will add the penalty to the amount owed. If someone owes $200 in taxes on April 15th, then the IRS will probably say that the total tax owed is $294 (or whatever) after they owe the penalty. If you write a check for $200, then you are likely to keep getting letters, etc. for the unpaid amount. Are they able to assess penalties and interest on unpaid penalties? If so, then this could be bad if legislation eventually allows them to pursue collection more aggressively.

blink on September 30, 2013 at 3:13 PM

That would constitute a levy, which they are explicitly prohibited from doing.

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 3:17 PM

This just means that the IRS can’t use a lien or levy. This doesn’t say that they can’t say that you owe the amount.

In other words, it’s likely that the IRS will add the penalty to the amount owed. If someone owes $200 in taxes on April 15th, then the IRS will probably say that the total tax owed is $294 (or whatever) after they owe the penalty. If you write a check for $200, then you are likely to keep getting letters, etc. for the unpaid amount. Are they able to assess penalties and interest on unpaid penalties? If so, then this could be bad if legislation eventually allows them to pursue collection more aggressively.

blink on September 30, 2013 at 3:13 PM

That would constitute a levy, which they are explicitly prohibited from doing.

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 3:17 PM

Actually I am mistaken. What you describe wouldn’t be a levy, but it still is not enforcement in any real sense. The IRS can make phone calls or send letters, but nothing else besides deduct the penalty from your tax return. Think of it as getting a strongly worded letter from the UN.

http://www.coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?a=Files.Serve&File_id=fd932516-3dc2-486f-a4de-81687c7c6915

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 3:27 PM

As a doctor I can accept a cash payment only if I charge the same amount as I would a private insurance. The difference is the insurance company will actually pay much less and you have to pay the full amount. According to federal guidelines,if I give a cash payer a discount I have document that they are poor and am supposed to get a copy of their tax return. It is absolutely crazy. It is on order to punish cash payers that don’t buy insurance. BTW, you can thank Newt and the boys for that little gem.

Redglen on September 30, 2013 at 3:36 PM

Redglen on September 30, 2013 at 3:36 PM

I recently went to a Pulmonologist here in Florida and was not required to prove that I was poor or give any financial documentation whatsoever. All they knew was that I had no insurance and gave me a rate of less than half it would have been for insurance because I was self pay.

BeachBum on September 30, 2013 at 3:48 PM

doctors bill all insurance the same amount. Private insurance pays about 50% of the bill amount, medicare about 40% and medical assistance about 10%. Cash payers are required to pay 100% by federal law.

Redglen on September 30, 2013 at 3:49 PM

“All health care meetings will be televised.”
o The 1st meeting was held on CSPAN before being dragged behind closed doors

“There will be no backroom, closed-door deals.”
o ‘Cornhusker Kickback’, anyone?

“ Americans will have 48 hours to review any legislation before it is passed.”
o Liberal ‘Servant of the People’ Nancy Pelosi declared to the American people, ‘You have no tight to know what is in this bill. You must wait until we pass it 1st.’ (1st time Liberals unofficially notify the American people Obama’s 2007 promise to ‘fundamentally transform the US’ is now complete, that this is now a ‘3rd World ‘Banana Republic’ where the ‘servants of the people’ have now become the ‘Masters’ who offer ‘Edicts’ rather than represent the people.
o Liberals go on to ram the bill through into law in the wee hours of the morning before Americans even knew a vote had been cast, therefore forcing the bill into law against the majority will of the people.

“It will not cost a dime.”
o $500 million was taken out of Medicaid to lower the total cost.
o The CBO reports it will cost over $1 trillion.
o Millions in an Obamacare ‘slush fund was reported as being LOST last week…and it has not even been implemented yet.
o Over $20 million was appropriated for an ad campaign to ‘make Americans fell good about a (THIS) passed law
o NO government-run program has EVER cost ‘nothing’.

“It will pay for itself.”
o NO government-run program EVER paid for itself.

“It will lower the deficit.”
o ANOTHER Bold LIE considering it will add over $1 trillion and how NO government-run program has EVER reduced the deficit.

“You can keep the insurance you have if you want. You will not lose your insurance.”
o Even before the bill was passed into law businesses had begun dropping coverage on employees.
o Businesses have ‘destroyed the 40-hour work week’ as employers fired workers or reduced the number of hours employees can work to avoid Obamacare health insurance mandates.
o Many small businesses collapsed, their workers losing their jobs and insurance due to the mandates

“You will not lose your job because of Obamacare.”
o Even before it was signed Businesses began layig workers off, forcing Obama to issue his UN-CONSTITUTIONAL waivers exempting Big Businesses and buddies from the mandates.

“No new taxes will be created / no taxes will be raised as a result of this law.”
o The Medical Device tax has caused jobs to go over seas, IS a new tax, & is disliked by 79% of ALL politicians.
o The Obama administration argued before the US Supreme Court that Obamacare contained a FINE for Americans who refused to participate – not a TAX. When they found out a ‘Fine’ was Un-Constitutional but a ‘tax’ was ok they immediately changed their minds and Roberts RE-WROTE THE LAW from the bench to save it.

“Obamacare will not destroy businesses or the economy.”
o MANY Small Businesses have collapsed due to the law/mandates.
o Jobs have been sent over seas thanks to mandates & taxes
o Democrats have called it a ‘train wreck’ that is ‘hurting Americans, destroying the 40-hour work week on which this nation was founded, and is hurting the economy’…’it is a bad law’.

“The GOP are lying and engaging in ‘Fear Mongering’ when they tell you all of this above is a lie.”
o Speaks for itself…all of the warnings issued by the GOP have been proven to be true.

* For the 1st time the Federal Government has been authorized to force the American people to buy a product…if people don’t, they are hit with yearly-increasing taxes – monetary PUNISHMENT designed to alter the behavior of Americans.
o The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court violated the Constitution (Separation of Powers) by violating the Constitution through RE-WRITING Obamacare TWICE while hearing the case in order to save it.

* Obama has continually VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION by amending the law himself as it has been passed. That is authority he does not have (Separation of Powers).
o Obama and Harry Reid have declared any attempt to delay American citizen participation in Obamacare, as he has carved out special treatment for big businesses and his pals, will be rejected, & THEY will shut down the government.

easyt65 on September 30, 2013 at 3:53 PM

BeachBum on September 30, 2013 at 3:48 PM

Yes, most doctors do give big cash discounts to people with no insurance. It’s still illegal. If the doctor gets caught not only will he be fined but YOU will be too! That’s right, if a doctor gets caught giving a cash discount without documenting financial distress the doctor AND the cash payer can be fined as if you had committed insurance fraud.

Redglen on September 30, 2013 at 3:54 PM

The law prohibits the IRS……

NotCoach on September 30, 2013 at 2:50 PM

until The One says its ok.

BobMbx on September 30, 2013 at 3:59 PM

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