9/11 message from Ron Paul: It was blowback for decades of intervention in the Middle East

posted at 7:21 pm on September 11, 2013 by Allahpundit

“Blowback” or “payback”? Say this for the guy: He doesn’t stray off-message just because people might be touchier than usual today at the idea that, while flying planes into skyscrapers is wrong, we sort of had it coming.

We’re supposed to believe that the perpetrators of 9/11 hated us for our freedom and goodness. In fact, that crime was blowback for decades of US intervention in the Middle East. And the last thing we needed was the government’s response: more wars, a stepped-up police and surveillance state, and drones.

Reaction to his post on Facebook is split between those who think the U.S. is indirectly to blame for 9/11 because it created Al Qaeda and people who think it’s directly to blame because 9/11 was an inside job. Some of the latter even seem annoyed at him for keeping up the pretense that it was an independent actor who knocked down the Towers, not an arm of the government. (Paul recently suggested that the Damascus gas attack was a “false flag” by the Syrian rebels, despite even outfits like Human Rights Watch saying otherwise. His fans will have to content themselves with that.) Makes me wonder how much support for the “blowback” explanation there is on either side of this debate. Hawks hate it because it seems to lend moral sanction to 9/11, and some Paulites hate it because it’s relatively weak tea among the range of possible ways that the feds can be blamed for the attack.

The irony of “blowback” is that it always comes packaged with mockery for simplistic “they hate us for our freedoms” explanations when it’s simplistic itself. Which stands to reason, because all of these magic-bullet theories are designed to serve foreign-policy agendas. If you’re a hardcore interventionist, believing that it’s all about freedom means you have a free hand abroad. Terrorists are plotting and there’s nothing you can do to satisfy them short of changing your way of life, so get them before they get you. If you’re a hardcore isolationist, believing that it’s all blowback means you can’t do anything abroad. Every move you make is apt to inspire an angry reaction; only by withdrawing completely and removing the impetus for terrorism will you be safe. Complex organisms like AQ don’t operate that simply. There’s a lot in the mix — anger at the U.S. for colluding with Arab leaders who lock up Islamists, yeah, but also Islamic fanaticism, irredentism, cultural stultification, poverty, etc. When Sayyid Qutb, the intellectual godfather of jihadis, visited the U.S., he was mortified at the loose morals he saw at a church social. He was a fanatic, and he did in fact hate the U.S. in part for its freedoms. The weirdest part of “blowback” to me has always been the way, intentionally or not, it’s willing to crown an ideology like that as a legit populist expression of Arab grievance, especially at a moment when Egyptians are busy putting the boots to the Islamists in their own midst. Revenge for U.S. intervention may have been part of 9/11, but part of it was also striking a blow at the world’s hyperpower, which spreads its filthy church-social morals among the ummah, to show the locals that the mujahedeen were capable of great things. That’s in AQ’s mix too — winning over Muslims to the cause of reclaiming Islamic lands from the west and Arab secularists for a new caliphate. Under “blowback,” though, the magic bullet is U.S. interventionism.

As for his point that the aftermath of 9/11 brought us only “more wars,” well, that’s partly his fault: He voted for the AUMF against Al Qaeda shortly after 9/11. His son, in fact, cheered America’s use of “overwhelming force” against Al Qaeda in his rebuttal to Obama’s Syria speech last night. I tweeted out that point a few hours ago and got a bunch of replies saying, “So? Rand and Ron are different people.” I sure hope that’s true, but I do find it interesting that Rand’s counting on Ron’s base to be his own base in 2016. He’s working hard to build on it by reaching out to mainstream conservatives in various ways, but the key to winning Iowa, for instance, is to start with the 20 percent of Ron fans and expand from there. The more he dismisses “blowback,” the more he’ll jeopardize that. I’m eager to see how he negotiates it.

Speaking of commenters who can’t decide how much involvement the U.S. government had in 9/11, here’s Cornel West trying to figure things out in an interview with Capitol City Project. Exit question: If a new caliphate run by Salafist fanatics was in the offing, would the U.S. be justified in intervening to stop it? The answer is and always will be “no” for isolationists, but one of the core arguments against intervening in Syria is that knocking out Assad might clear the way for jihadis to take power and set up a de facto caliphate of their own there. Rand Paul himself has pointed out frequently that Christians are facing a dire threat if Sunni fundies take over. Is it in America’s interest to sit back and let it happen if the Sunni rebels somehow manage to make that happen with any western help?


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2

Over

Bmore on September 11, 2013 at 9:06 PM

Paul does not believe that it is right and proper under our Constitution to become ensnared in the intrigues of other nations.

I believe that we should act when it is in our national interest to do so.

turfmann on September 11, 2013 at 8:26 PM

Agree — and enjoyed your arguments.

I never bought the “They hate us for our freedoms” meme, because they likely either (1) have no conception of our freedoms or (2) are terrified of them …

ShainS on September 11, 2013 at 9:09 PM

No one’s claiming that Bin Laden didn’t offer that as a reason. The point is that Paul treats it as the only reason.
Read this, noting especially the paragraph about Al Qaeda’s many, many, many grievances.
Allahpundit on September 11, 2013 at 7:47 PM

Thanks for the link, Allah. It’s not popping up on the iPhone, so I’ll be sure to read it later on.

turfmann on September 11, 2013 at 9:20 PM

workingclass artist on September 11, 2013 at 9:06 PM

The church here doesn’t recognize V-II and still blames the Jews for Jesus’s death.

annoyinglittletwerp on September 11, 2013 at 9:24 PM

Ron, go F yourself. Please, do the world a favor you hypocritical failure, crawl back in your cave and STFU.

mbecker908 on September 11, 2013 at 9:26 PM

I never bought the “They hate us for our freedoms” meme, because they likely either (1) have no conception of our freedoms or (2) are terrified of them …

ShainS on September 11, 2013 at 9:09 PM

I consider most of RoPaul’s rants to be frauds cooked up by his press crew. I believe the only time he was ever honest in public was during the 2008 Presidential campaign, when he was debating Palin and Biden.

Whenever the subject was foreign policy, MidEast or otherwise, he launched into a rant about “the Jews”. Ditto domestic economic policy. Most of his babbling (until the moderator cut him off) was boilerplate straight out of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion;

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion or The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion is an antisemitic hoax purporting to describe a Jewish plan for global domination. It was first published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated internationally in the early part of the 20th century. Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies that were distributed throughout the US in the 1920s.

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis publicized the text as if it were a valid document, although it had already been exposed as fraudulent. After the Nazi Party came to power in 1933, it ordered the text to be studied in German classrooms. The historian Norman Cohn suggested that Hitler used the Protocols as his primary justification for initiating the Holocaust—his “warrant for genocide”.

The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world’s economies. It is still widely available today and even now sometimes presented as a genuine document, whether on the Internet or in print in numerous languages.

BTW, it has never been out of print in Islamic countries since it was first published. You can find it in any bazaar.

Now, either RoPaul is a dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semite, or he’s just a few bricks shy of a load. Either way, he makes Nancy Pelosi look rational by comparison.

Ok, almost rational.

Slightly less than completely nuts.

Considering this sort of rambling from him, I don’t think RoPaul is in any way deserving of the adulation he gets from some of the loopier elements of both parties. But especially the GOP.

clear ether

eon

eon on September 11, 2013 at 9:34 PM

Ouch.

TXMomof3 on September 11, 2013 at 9:47 PM

Ron Paul thinks we need to stay out of Syria because any involvement there will lead to blowback later. Do you agree or disagree?

So why was the US attacked on 9/11?

They hate us for our freedoms even though there are several countries that are considered far more free with less strict laws and far fewer prisoners per capita?

or

They hate the US for not allowing Muslims the right to practice their religion even though that actually only applied to a few other countries.

or

They want to start a religious war beginning in the US despite that it would make much more since, strategically, to start their war in Asia since there happens to be a massive number of Muslims in those countries which would have far less ability, than the US, to counter such a movement that could spread to China with the largest Muslim population. (The vast majority of China’s Muslims are Sunni Muslims, though members of other Muslim groups exist, particularly those of Sufi orders.)

or

We’re supposed to believe that the perpetrators of 9/11 hated us for our freedom and goodness. In fact, that crime was blowback for decades of US intervention in the Middle East.

JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 9:53 PM

Despite all of the dismissiveness by the Hot Airheads here, this guy seems to know a lot about Al Qaeda and terrorism. By the way, he happens to agree with Ron Paul.

http://www.thelibertarianpatriot.com/2012/02/mike-church-interviews-michael-scheuer.html

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 10:00 PM

Question for those of you who support isolationism and/or non-interventionism…

Do you think France should have gotten involved in the American Revolution?

Its one thing to say we shouldn’t be involved in other people’s wars. But was it wrong for France to be involved in our war?

We couldn’t have won the Revolutionary war without France’s help. Think about that.

Conservative Samizdat on September 11, 2013 at 10:01 PM

fify

workingclass artist on September 11, 2013 at 8:41 PM

Hate to tell you this, but “Father” Gruner hasn’t been excommunicated or even defrocked. And apparently he was insisting that Cardinal Bergoglio wrote to him (which is definitely not the case or it contained the words Please repent, you raging anti-Semite.) Vile organization that I stumbled on when we were planning a trip to Portugal. Perhaps someone can explain this fixation on Fatima among more conservative Catholics; it makes a legitimate Marian shrine seem nutty.

Sadly, there is an anti-Semitic, conspiracy vibe even among Catholics that accept Pope Francis. I’m all for some excommunications like the Mormons do.

Illinidiva on September 11, 2013 at 10:04 PM

Ron Paul has always been a nut job and still is today.. Wish he would just go away..

Bullhead on September 11, 2013 at 10:05 PM

Ron Paul has always been a nut job and still is today.. Wish he would just go away..

Bullhead on September 11, 2013 at 10:05 PM

The nut jobs are the people who got the US into a war in Iraq based on lies and false premises and the idiots who still defend that war.

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 10:22 PM

Paul is simply clueless on the subject of geopolitics

Ellis on September 11, 2013 at 10:24 PM

Question for those of you who support isolationism and/or non-interventionism…

Do you think France should have gotten involved in the American Revolution?

Its one thing to say we shouldn’t be involved in other people’s wars. But was it wrong for France to be involved in our war?

We couldn’t have won the Revolutionary war without France’s help. Think about that.

Conservative Samizdat on September 11, 2013 at 10:01 PM

I’m not French nor do I speak for the French people in the late 18th century but I would have not advised them to get involved in the American Revolution

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 10:24 PM

Paul is simply clueless on the subject of geopolitics

Ellis on September 11, 2013 at 10:24 PM

And what makes you an expert on geopolitics?

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 10:25 PM

Way to stay classy Ron Paul. On a day most people reflect on the 9/11 tragedy, you choose to repeat your same tired line that we’ve all heard you utter 1000 times.

And for those that get their panties in a wad over the poorly argued, ‘they hate us for our freedom’ phrase….I personally never thought that was supposed to be literal. Radical muslims don’t necessarily hate us BECAUSE of our freedom, but rather what our decadent culture displays living in such freedom. That’s a fact if you’ve watched any of Al Jazeera’s propaganda.

Vanbasten on September 11, 2013 at 10:27 PM

This stuff is inevitable when we don’t actually name the enemy. Our rhetoric states we’re warring against a tactic.

Islamists don’t hate us for our freedom. They hate us because their holy book tells them to. But we don’t say that, so we have people fill in their own pet theories.

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 10:29 PM

Paul is simply clueless on the subject of geopolitics

Ellis on September 11, 2013 at 10:24 PM

One of his problems is that his hatred of Jews twists his worldview into some kind of mobius pretzel that renders him worthless.

slickwillie2001 on September 11, 2013 at 10:29 PM

Ron, Go pound sand., bless your heart.

Question for those of you who support isolationism and/or non-interventionism…

Do you think France should have gotten involved in the American Revolution?

It’s one thing to say we shouldn’t be involved in other people’s wars. But was it wrong for France to be involved in our war?

We couldn’t have won the Revolutionary war without France’s help. Think about that.

Conservative Samizdat on September 11, 2013 at 10:01 PM

Fance and England were major enemies at the time. It made sense for France to aid the United States to weaken England.

Syria is not our major enemy, nor was Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt or Libya. Yes there are multiple human rights abuses as there are in Saudi Arabia, Somalia, the Congo, etc.
We can’t save them all. We are overextended. We should probably not have gotten involved in anything but Afghannistan. We need to stop.

talkingpoints on September 11, 2013 at 10:35 PM

This stuff is inevitable when we don’t actually name the enemy. Our rhetoric states we’re warring against a tactic.

Islamists don’t hate us for our freedom. They hate us because their holy book tells them to. But we don’t say that, so we have people fill in their own pet theories.

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 10:29 PM

OK, here is what Ron Paul said (again)

We’re supposed to believe that the perpetrators of 9/11 hated us for our freedom and goodness. In fact, that crime was blowback for decades of US intervention in the Middle East. And the last thing we needed was the government’s response: more wars, a stepped-up police and surveillance state, and drones.

So, you don’t think having troops in Saudi Arabia and imposing harsh economic sanctions on Iraq were motivating factors for Al Qaeda? Do you believe that more Middle Eastern wars is the path to peace?

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 10:37 PM

So, you don’t think having troops in Saudi Arabia and imposing harsh economic sanctions on Iraq were motivating factors for Al Qaeda? Do you believe that more Middle Eastern wars is the path to peace?
antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Al Qaeda is motivated primarily by the teachings of Islam. Our bases and sanctions, etc are tangential.

Islam has been at war with everyone since its inception. This isn’t a new problem.

Our wars in the Middle East are entirely ineffective because we keep trying to foist “freedom” on people that want sharia law. I do not think more wars are a good idea. Since we ignore that Islam is the problem we should completely disengage from the Middle East.

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 10:49 PM

Ron Paul did NOT come up with the term blowback he just repeated what the US intelligence officials who specialized on al Qaeda and bin Laden and etc have said about 9/11.

Originally, blowback was CIA internal coinage denoting the unintended, harmful consequences—to friendly populations and military forces—when a given weapon is used beyond its purpose as intended by the party supplying it. Examples include anti-Western religious figures (e.g. Osama bin Laden) who, in due course, attack foe and sponsor; right-wing counter-revolutionaries who sell drugs to their sponsor’s civil populace (see CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US); and banana republic juntas (see Salvadoran Civil War) who kill American reporters or nuns (e.g. Dorothy Kazel).

In formal print usage, the term blowback first appeared in the Clandestine Service History—Overthrow of Premier Mossadeq of Iran—November 1952–August 1953, the CIA’s internal history of the 1953 Iranian coup d’état, sponsored by the US and UK, which was published in March 1954.[2][3] Blowback from this operation would indeed occur with the Iranian Revolution and the Iran hostage crisis.

JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 10:53 PM

Pillage Idiot on Ron Paul, circa 2007: It’s blowback all the way down.

Attila (Pillage Idiot) on September 11, 2013 at 10:55 PM

Al Qaeda is motivated primarily by the teachings of Islam. Our bases and sanctions, etc are tangential.
Islam has been at war with everyone since its inception. This isn’t a new problem.
Our wars in the Middle East are entirely ineffective because we keep trying to foist “freedom” on people that want sharia law. I do not think more wars are a good idea. Since we ignore that Islam is the problem we should completely disengage from the Middle East.
happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 10:49 PM

Islam has been around for over a millennia. If Al Qaeda is motivated by the teachings of Islam, why wasn’t terrorism a concern from 1776-1945? After all, Islam existed for all of those years.

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 11:00 PM

When Iraq invaded Kuwait, it was the West, not the Arabs, who kicked them out. Al Qaeda began based on revulsion of this, not hating our freedoms

Sorry, that’s not true. To be sure, the West – the US – carried much of the freight. But the Arab world supported and assisted in that endeavor. They provided troops and money.

AQ was angry, so said Bin Laden, because we kept about 15,000 troops in Saudi Arabia to protect the House of Saud from a Iraqi invasion. He believed that the presence of “infidels” in Islamic Holy lands was unacceptable.

So, it was just our presence in Saudi Arabia – nothing else – that angered him.

Perhaps I exaggerate a bit for effect — especially regarding WWI — but the point is that AQ doesn’t think that the Arabs should have a “supporting” role in the Muslim world, but rather a dominant role. That’s their beef. Westerners have visited Saudi Arabia from before the time it was Saudi, but AQ only sprung up in the 90s, after the Gulf War. And if their only problem were our troop presence in Saudi Arabia, they would have declared victory and disbanded when we moved our troops to Kuwait and Qatar. Heck, even if that were their primary goal, they would have least declared “mission accomplished.” Instead, they kept fighting. It’s about expulsion of Western influence, not Western troops.

calbear on September 11, 2013 at 11:00 PM

start with the 20 percent of Ron fans and expand from there

Yeah, why cater to the 80 percent who think Ron Paul is a f’ing idiot? That would never work./

Ronnie on September 11, 2013 at 11:02 PM

So, you don’t think having troops in Saudi Arabia and imposing harsh economic sanctions on Iraq were motivating factors for Al Qaeda? Do you believe that more Middle Eastern wars is the path to peace?

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Our “intervention” is the blowback for muslim terrorism. Not the other way around, doofus.

Ronnie on September 11, 2013 at 11:15 PM

Islam has been around for over a millennia. If Al Qaeda is motivated by the teachings of Islam, why wasn’t terrorism a concern from 1776-1945? After all, Islam existed for all of those years.
antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 11:00 PM

Islam has been around for a long time, yes. And since its inception it has been terrorizing its neighbors and especially its adherents.

I suppose it depends on how you define “terrorism”. I don’t need to list the conflicts for you, but you could start with the Barbary pirates perhaps. They did a good bit of terrorizing back… around 1776 actually! But Islam is a much bigger problem than merely occasionally running planes into buildings or blowing up a bus full of school children. Our failure to recognize this leads to all kinds of incomplete and wrongheaded thinking.

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 11:18 PM

The church here doesn’t recognize V-II and still blames the Jews for Jesus’s death.

annoyinglittletwerp on September 11, 2013 at 9:24 PM

Sounds like more than the usual traditionalists who mostly just want the Latin Mass offered too…The folks you describe sound like the sedavacantist types.

Sedevacantist means “vacant chair” These folks think all the popes since Pius XII have been anti-popes.

They are nuts….and they’re numbers are very small….They are basically dieing out within the church as a fringe group.

Sorry you live by one of their churches.

workingclass artist on September 11, 2013 at 11:18 PM

but AQ only sprung up in the 90s, after the Gulf War.

calbear on September 11, 2013 at 11:00 PM

The origins of al-Qaeda can be traced to the Soviet War in Afghanistan (December 1979 – February 1989). The conflict in Afghanistan, with the elected Afghan government and allied Soviet troops on one side and the radical Islamic militants on the other.

A CIA program called Operation Cyclone channeled funds through Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency to the Afghan Mujahideen who were fighting the Soviet occupation.

CIA-funded and ISI-trained Afghan mujahideen fighters = al Qaeda.

JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 11:20 PM

Hate to tell you this, but “Father” Gruner hasn’t been excommunicated or even defrocked. And apparently he was insisting that Cardinal Bergoglio wrote to him (which is definitely not the case or it contained the words Please repent, you raging anti-Semite.) Vile organization that I stumbled on when we were planning a trip to Portugal. Perhaps someone can explain this fixation on Fatima among more conservative Catholics; it makes a legitimate Marian shrine seem nutty.

Sadly, there is an anti-Semitic, conspiracy vibe even among Catholics that accept Pope Francis. I’m all for some excommunications like the Mormons do.

Illinidiva on September 11, 2013 at 10:04 PM

They are conspiracy nuts and many of them are also sedevacantists as well.

The obsession with Fatima is their conspiracy theory that the Vatican conspired to with hold and or alter the third secret. These folks believe that there was an imposter nun who sanctioned the official version of the last secret

They are obsessed with the last secret because they think it reveals the end times in detail etc.

They are nuts.

workingclass artist on September 11, 2013 at 11:30 PM

CIA-funded and ISI-trained Afghan mujahideen fighters = al Qaeda.

That’s like saying “Iraq War vets = 90s militia movement.” There’s plenty of overlap, but equating them is ridiculous.

calbear on September 11, 2013 at 11:33 PM

They are obsessed with the last secret because they think it reveals the end times in detail etc.
workingclass artist on September 11, 2013 at 11:30 PM

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but this part sounds awesome.

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 11:36 PM

Islam is a much bigger problem than merely occasionally running planes into buildings or blowing up a bus full of school children. Our failure to recognize this leads to all kinds of incomplete and wrongheaded thinking.

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 11:18 PM

Hitler also accused the Jews of having a vast global conspiracy to take over the world and implement the torah laws on the filthy gentiles.

I think both conspiracy theories are ridicules propaganda to stir up the masses.

It would make much more since, strategically, to start their, (supposed global conspiracy), religious war in Asia where there happens to be a massive number of Muslims in those countries which would have far less ability, than the US, to counter such a movement that could then have spread to China with the largest Muslim population in the world. (The vast majority of China’s Muslims are Sunni Muslims, though members of other Muslim groups exist, particularly those of Sufi orders.)

So why attack the worlds largest and most sophisticated military FIRST instead of consolidating their power around the world BEFORE taking on the worlds most deadly nation?

Because its BS propaganda just like the BS propaganda used by Hitler against the Jews.

JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 11:37 PM

Islam is a much bigger problem than merely occasionally running planes into buildings or blowing up a bus full of school children. Our failure to recognize this leads to all kinds of incomplete and wrongheaded thinking.

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 11:18 PM

Hitler also accused the Jews of having a vast global conspiracy to take over the world and implement the torah laws on the filthy gentiles.

I think both conspiracy theories are ridicules propaganda to stir up the masses.

It would make much more since, strategically, to start their, (supposed global conspiracy), religious war in Asia where there happens to be a massive number of Muslims in those countries which would have far less ability, than the US, to counter such a movement that could then have spread to China with the largest Muslim population in the world. (The vast majority of China’s Muslims are Sunni Muslims, though members of other Muslim groups exist, particularly those of Sufi orders.)

So why attack the worlds largest and most sophisticated military FIRST instead of consolidating their power around the world BEFORE taking on the worlds most deadly nation?

Because its BS propaganda just like the BS propaganda used by Hitler against the Jews.

JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 11:38 PM

Never forget that Ron Paul’s first thoughts about 9/11 was that his fellow Americans were behind it.

Alberta_Patriot on September 11, 2013 at 8:50 PM

And the NSA, IRS, TSA, DHS, etc. etc. aren’t spying and taking away our rights, making us slaves to the central government? Say, who wants to give guns to Al Qaeda in Syria?

Its now almost irrelevant as to the why/how 9/11 happened. We, Americans have lost, the terrorists and most importantly, the government nanny state has won.

oryguncon on September 11, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Because its BS propaganda just like the BS propaganda used by Hitler against the Jews.
JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 11:38 PM

What?

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Yeah and that why we have CAIR calling the shots over here- and the Mooslum Brotherhood entrenching in our Fed Government.
.
Jihad this you Freakin towel head terrorists.
.
This infidel waiting for you.

FlaMurph on September 11, 2013 at 11:43 PM

I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but this part sounds awesome.

happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 11:36 PM

The Miracle of Fatima is awesome…

The fatima conspiracy nuts…most definitely not!

workingclass artist on September 11, 2013 at 11:45 PM

JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 11:38 PM

So, if they don’t hit a small country FIRST that’s proof that they don’t want to convert the world by force… um…. what are you smoking?

Ronnie on September 11, 2013 at 11:47 PM

Al Qaeda is motivated primarily by the teachings of Islam. Our bases and sanctions, etc are tangential.
Islam has been at war with everyone since its inception. This isn’t a new problem.
Our wars in the Middle East are entirely ineffective because we keep trying to foist “freedom” on people that want sharia law. I do not think more wars are a good idea. Since we ignore that Islam is the problem we should completely disengage from the Middle East.
happytobehere on September 11, 2013 at 10:49 PM

So I guess Black Beard and all of the other pirates in the Atlantic were terrorist too.

Why didn’t the Barbary Pirates require for the US to establish a permanent military presence in the Middle East?

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 11:49 PM

That’s like saying “Iraq War vets = 90s militia movement.” There’s plenty of overlap, but equating them is ridiculous.

calbear on September 11, 2013 at 11:33 PM

We Created Al Qaeda to Fight the Soviets in Afghanistan

Jimmy Carter’s National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski admitted on CNN that the U.S. organized and supported Bin Laden and the other originators of “Al Qaeda” in the 1970s to fight the Soviets.

The plan was called the Afghan trap in which the US would lure the Soviets to aid their allies, the elected afghan government, fighting against radical Islamic terrorists, so they would be boged down in a long war that hopefully would bankrupt them.

The director of the National Security Agency under Ronald Reagan – Lt. General William Odom – noted:

Because the United States itself has a long record of supporting terrorists and using terrorist tactics, the slogans of today’s war on terrorism merely makes the United States look hypocritical to the rest of the world.

Odom also said:

By any measure the US has long used terrorism. In ‘78-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism – in every version they produced, the lawyers said the US would be in violation.

JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 11:55 PM

So annoying to hear a deluded libertarian shoving the Muslim justification down our throats.

Basilsbest on September 11, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Illinidiva on September 11, 2013 at 10:04 PM

Pope Francis is anti-clericalism and pro-ecumenicalism.

This drives the fringes we’ve discussed crazy.

workingclass artist on September 11, 2013 at 11:59 PM

Why didn’t the Barbary Pirates require for the US to establish a permanent military presence in the Middle East?
antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 11:49 PM

Well, the Barbary wars went on from 1685 to 1815. That’s reasonably permanent, don’t you think?

The Middle East has a problem. That problem is Islam. It will be a problem forever. I certainly don’t want to declare war on Islam. I’m honestly not sure we’d win that war. But we should absolutely stop trying to give these folks “freedom”. It’s a terrible idea. Protecting the less religious Saudis from their more religious brethren (either in the royal family or neighboring Islamist states) is a bit of a conundrum since they have so much oil. It’s a real shame.

I think completely disengaging from the Middle East would be preferable to our current policy.

happytobehere on September 12, 2013 at 12:03 AM

JustTheFacts on September 11, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Is this really the right forum for far-leftist cant? The facts are that the government didn’t know bin Laden from Adam in the 80s. That shooting down military planes is a bit different from flying civilian planes into skyscrapers. And that the Arabs didn’t do jack to advance the anti-Soviet side of the Afghan war — if anything, they hurt more helped. Wikipedia has a number of quotes from more reputable sources disputing your Ron-Paul-meets-Code-Pink talking points.

calbear on September 12, 2013 at 12:04 AM

It does not look like ALL Muslims believe in or want to carry out your imagined religious world conspiracy:

There was a huge rift between the Taliban and OBL and the Taliban desperately wanted to get rid of OBL. An e-mail from two leading Arab jihadists in Afghanistan to Bin Laden in July 1999, later found on a laptop previously belonging to al Qaeda in and purchased by the Wall Street Journal, referred to “problems between you and the Leader of the Faithful (Mullah Omar) ” as a “crisis”.

Also another e-mail, published in an article by Alan Cullison in The Atlantic, said, “Talk about closing down the camps has spread.” Proving that the al Qaeda jihadists feared the Taliban regime was going to “kick them out” of Afghanistan.

The Taliban was so fed up with OBL that they had a shootout with OBL’s bodyguards when they took OBL from his home in Kandahar and had him taken to an isolated house in the country while they attempted to get rid of him.

The CIA station Chief Robert Grenier confirmed the Taliban offered to hand OBL over and Elmar Brok, a German member of the European Parliament, confirmed that he helped Kabir Mohabbat, (who also confirms Taliban tried to hand over OBL), make contact with the US government after the Taliban had arrested OBL. All three confirm that Minister Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil told the US officials “You can have him (OBL) whenever the Americans are ready. Name us a country and we will extradite him.” But according to the German member of the European Parliament, Elmar Brok, and Robert Grenier, the CIA station chief in Pakistan a “political decision” was made by US officials not to except the Taliban offers.

CIA station Chief Robert Grenier, said about the meetings; “They were saying, ‘Do something to help us give him up.’… I have no doubts they wanted to get rid of him. He was a pain in the neck.” The Taliban also proposed to hold bin Laden, who was at this time a prisoner, in one location long enough for the US to locate and kill him. According to Kabir Mohabbat and Elmar Brok the Taliban became so frustrated that they even offered to pay the US for the missile strike on Bin Laden. However, this offer was also refused by US officials.

JustTheFacts on September 12, 2013 at 12:11 AM

oryguncon on September 11, 2013 at 11:40 PM

People like you keep libertarian thought on the fringes, when it has many good things to say. Thanks for ruining it for everyone.

thebrokenrattle on September 12, 2013 at 12:12 AM

This place has gotten weird. I’m gonna bow out now. Please do continue.

happytobehere on September 12, 2013 at 12:15 AM

You know what, Ron, I agree. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t bomb the piss out of those f*ckers, though.

Talk about imperialists and occupiers. The Arabs have been occupying those foreign lands in the Middle East since about 600 AD. Before that those lands were Christian, Jewish, and pagan. How ’bout we just push those imperialist b*stards back into the desert where they belong.

The West has been fighting “Persia” since Thermoplyae, since before Persia was Muslim. When we were not trying to conquer them, they were tryint to conquer us. If the Iranians had any sense, they would try to push the Muslim invaders and conquerors of their ancient and glorious civilization out. Egypt too. 9-11 was the latest skirmish in the long war, only possible because blinkered idiots like Ron Paul don’t understand history.

Palastinian Arabs. Hahahahaha!. Original occupants of the land, my *ss. Palestine has been around a lot longer than the Arab/Muslim invaders. We are the liberators, trying to free the native Middle Eastern populations from a cruel oppressor, one that strangled the life out of their native genius after a brief efflorescence.

Every thing they say about us, Islam is. And that’s why they hate us.

Mr. Arkadin on September 12, 2013 at 12:22 AM

The Taliban hated OBL but they couldn’t kill him because he was an Afghan war hero so they asked the US to take him off their hands or kill him for them but the US refused.

Even according to Condoleezza Rice, testifying before the 9/11 commission, Bush AUTHORIZED ON SEPTEMBER 4, 2001 to begin the May 2001 plan for military operations “against Taliban targets in Afghanistan, including leadership, command-control, air and air defense, ground forces, and logistics.”

Bush ordered plans to be drawn up in May 2001 for the invasion of Afghanistan. The May 2001 plan to oust the Taliban called for military operations to begin in OCTOBER 2001 and was coordinated by Khalilzad who previously worked under Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz when he helped him write the controversial 1992 plan to control strategic energy reserves for US world domination and was a member of the neoconservative think tank “Project for the New American Century” which also called for the US to forcefully take control of strategic energy reserves in order to become THE world leader/empire.

Khalilzad who coordinated the May 2001 US invasion plans to oust the Taliban, (by beginning military operations in OCTOBER 2001), had previously pushed for the overthrow of the Taliban 2 years earlier with other members of Unocal after he conducted the risk analysis for Unocal (Union Oil Company of California) for the infamous proposed $2 billion, 1,500 kilometer-long Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan [TAP] gas pipeline.

Khalilzad the former Unocal exec, was responsible for picking Hamid Karzai, the former Unocal consultant, as head of the interim government who subsequently was elected President of Afghanistan, and welcomed the first U.S. envoy—-Mr. John J. Maresc a, Vice President for International Relations of the Unocal Corporation, who had implored Congress 2 years previously, (with other members of Unocal including Khalilzad), to have the Taliban overthrown. Mr. Maresca was succeeded by Mr. Zalmay Khalilzad—-also a former Unocal consultant. (Mr. Khalilzad had since become Ambassador to Iraq which was phase TWO of securing the US’s geopolitical goals in the region which included surrounding Iran, ending Russia’s pipeline monopoly, establishing bases, and etc.)

Because of the vital importance of the TAPI pipeline, one of the first things the new Afghan/Unocal government did was sign the TAPI pipeline deal with Turkmenistan and Pakistan. But the TAPI plans have stalled along with the Afghan war do to the Taliban continually increasing its rate of inflicting US casualties while maintaining a strong resistance/insurgence in the key areas the pipeline must travel through thus making it, (like Afghanistan), impossible for the US to secure.

JustTheFacts on September 12, 2013 at 12:29 AM

happytobehere on September 12, 2013 at 12:15 AM

Doesn’t happen too often but I agree with you.

thebrokenrattle on September 12, 2013 at 12:50 AM

Every thing they say about us, Islam is. And that’s why they hate us.

Mr. Arkadin on September 12, 2013 at 12:22 AM

History lesson

FIRST the Christians tortured the Jews & Muslims, and yet they refused to convert, so finally the Christians killed the Jews & Muslims for refusing to convert. Beginning in 306 AD:

306: The church Synod of Elvira banned marriages, sexual intercourse and community contacts between Christians and Jews.

315: Constantine published the Edict of Milan which extended religious tolerance to Christians. Jews lost many rights with this edict. They were no longer permitted to live in Jerusalem, or to proselytize.

325: The Council of Nicea decided to separate the celebration of Easter from the Jewish Passover. They stated: “For it is unbecoming beyond measure that on this holiest of festivals we should follow the customs of the Jews. Henceforth let us have nothing in common with this odious people…We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews…our worship follows a…more convenient course…we desire dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews…How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are almost certainly blinded.”

337: Christian Emperor Constantius created a law which made the marriage of a Jewish man to a Christian punishable by death.

339: Converting to Judaism became a criminal offense punishable by death.

343-381: The Laodicean Synod approved Cannon XXXVIII: “It is not lawful [for Christians] to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.” 5 To do so was punishable by death.

367 – 376: St. Hilary of Poitiers referred to Jews as a perverse people who God has cursed forever. St. Ephroem refers to synagogues as brothels.

379-395: Emperor Theodosius the Great permitted the destruction of synagogues if it served a religious purpose. Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire at this time.
380: The bishop of Milan was responsible for the burning of a synagogue; he referred to it as “an act pleasing to God.”

415: The Bishop of Alexandria, St. Cyril, expelled the Jews from that Egyptian city.

415: St. Augustine wrote “The true image of the Hebrew is Judas Iscariot, who sells the Lord for silver. The Jew can never understand the Scriptures and forever will bear the guilt for the death of Jesus.”

418: St. Jerome, who created the Vulgate translation of the Bible wrote of a synagogue: “If you call it a brothel, a den of vice, the Devil’s refuge, Satan’s fortress, a place to deprave the soul, an abyss of every conceivable disaster or whatever you will, you are still saying less than it deserves.”

489 – 519: Christian mobs destroyed the synagogues in Antioch, Daphne (near Antioch) and Ravenna.

528: Emperor Justinian (527-564) passed the Justinian Code. It prohibited Jews from building synagogues, reading the Bible in Hebrew, assemble in public, celebrate Passover before Easter, and testify against Christians in court.

535: The “Synod of Claremont decreed that Jews could not hold public office or have authority over Christians.”

538: The 3rd and 4th Councils of Orleans prohibited Jews from appearing in public during the Easter season. Canon XXX decreed that “From the Thursday before Easter for four days, Jews may not appear in the company of Christians.” Marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited. Christians were prohibited from converting to Judaism. to do so was punishable by death

561: The bishop of Uzes expelled Jews from his diocese in France.

612: Jews were not allowed to own land, to be farmers or enter certain trades.

613: Very serious persecution began in Spain. Jews were given the options of either leaving Spain or converting to Christianity. Jewish children over 6 years of age were taken from their parents and given a Christian education

692: Cannnon II of the Quinisext Council stated: “Let no one in the priestly order nor any layman eat the unleavened bread of the Jews, nor have any familiar intercourse with them, nor summon them in illness, nor receive medicines from them, nor bathe with them; but if anyone shall take in hand to do so, if he is a cleric, let him be deposed, but if a layman, let him be cut off.”

694: The 17th Church Council of Toledo, Spain defined Jews as the serfs of the prince. This was based, in part, on the beliefs by Chrysostom, Origen, Jerome, and other Church Fathers that God punished the Jews with perpetual slavery because of their alleged responsibility for the execution of Jesus.

722: Leo III outlawed Judaism. Jews were baptized against their will.

855: Jews were exiled from Italy.

1050: The Synod of Narbonne prohibited Christians from living in the homes of Jews.

1078: “Pope Gregory VII decreed that Jews could not hold office or be superiors to Christians.”

1078: The Synod of Gerona forced Jews to pay church taxes.

1096: The First Crusade was launched in this year. Although the prime goal of the crusades was to liberate Jerusalem from the Muslims, Jews were a second target. As the soldiers passed through Europe on the way to the Holy Land, large numbers of Jews were challenged: “Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!” 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed in the first Crusade. This behavior continued for 8 additional crusades until the 9th in 1272.

1099: The Crusaders forced all of the Jews of Jerusalem into a central synagogue and set it on fire. Those who tried to escape were forced back into the burning building.

1121: Jews were exiled from Flanders (now part of present-day Belgium)

1130: Some Jews in London allegedly killed a sick man. The Jewish people in the city were required to pay 1 million marks as compensation.

1146: The Second Crusade began. A French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews.

1179: Canon 24 of the Third Lateran Council stated: “Jews should be slaves to Christians and at the same time treated kindly due of humanitarian considerations.” Canon 26 stated that “the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be preferred in all causes where they use their own witnesses against Christians.”

1180: The French King of France, Philip Augustus, arbitrarily seized all Jewish property and expelled the Jews from the country. There was no legal justification for this action. They were allowed to sell all movable possessions, but their land and houses were stolen by the king.

1189: Jews were persecuted in England. The Crown claimed all Jewish possessions. Most of their houses were burned.

1205: Pope Innocent III wrote to the archbishops of Sens and Paris that “the Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord…As slaves rejected by God, in whose death they wickedly conspire, they shall by the effect of this very action, recognize themselves as the slaves of those whom Christ’s death set free…”

1215: The Fourth Lateran Council approved canon laws requiring that “Jews and Muslims shall wear a special dress.” They also had to wear a badge in the form of a ring. This was to enable them to be easily distinguished from Christians. This practice later spread to other countries.

1227: The Synod of Narbonne required Jews to wear an oval badge. This requirement was reinstalled during the 1930′s by Hitler, who changed the oval badge to a Star of David.

1229: The Spanish inquisition starts. Later, in 1252, Pope Innocent IV authorizes the use of torture by the Inquisitors.
1236: Pope Gregory ordered that church leaders in England, France, Portugal and Spain confiscate Jewish books on the first Saturday of Lent. 1
1259: A “synod of the archdiocese in Mainz ordered Jews to wear yellow badges.” 1
1261: Duke Henry III of Brabant, Belgium, stated in his will that “Jews…must be expelled from Brabant and totally annihilated so that not a single one remains, except those who are willing to trade, like all other tradesmen, without money-lending and usury.” 2
1267: The Synod of Vienna ordered Jews to wear horned hats. Thomas Aquinas said that Jews should live in perpetual servitude.
1290: Jews are exiled from England. About 16,000 left the country.
1298: Jews were persecuted in Austria, Bavaria and Franconia. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed; more than 100,000 Jews were killed over a 6 month period.
1306: 100,000 Jews are exiled from France. They left with only the clothes on their backs, and food for only one day.
1320: 40,000 French shepherds went to Palestine on the Shepherd Crusade. On the way, 140 Jewish communities were destroyed.

JustTheFacts on September 12, 2013 at 12:59 AM

Every thing they say about us, Islam is. And that’s why they hate us.

Mr. Arkadin on September 12, 2013 at 12:22 AM

Law #1. Exodus 21:7-11
7“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.
10“If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Law #2. Exodus 21:20-21
20“If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. 21But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.

Law #3. Leviticus 25:44-46
44“You may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you. 45You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, 46passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat them as slaves, but you must never treat your fellow Israelites this way.

Law #4 Exodus 21:2-6
2“If you buy a Hebrew slave, he may serve for no more than six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. 3If he was single when he became your slave, he shall leave single. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife must be freed with him.
4“If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave and they had sons or daughters, then only the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. 5But the slave may declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I don’t want to go free.’ 6If he does this, his master must present him before God.a Then his master must take him to the door or doorpost and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will serve his master for life.

Law #5 Ephesians 6:5
5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. 6Try to please them all the time, not just when they are watching you. As slaves of Christ, do the will of God with all your heart. 7Work with enthusiasm, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. 8Remember that the Lord will reward each one of us for the good we do, whether we are slaves or free.

Law #6 1 Timothy 6:1-2
1Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. 2If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.
Jesus said in Luke 12:47-48
47“And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. 48But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

Except for murder, slavery is one of the most immoral things a person can do. Yet slavery is rampant throughout the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments. The Bible clearly approves of slavery in many passages, and it goes so far as to tell how to obtain slaves, how hard you can beat them, and when you can have sex with the young female slaves.

Just like Hitler did to the torah you are doing to the Qur’an like anyone can do to Christianity in order to claim that Jews or Muslims or Christians should be exterminated. So Please stop the propaganda of hate for no people of any religion, race, creed, or color should be exterminated.

JustTheFacts on September 12, 2013 at 1:03 AM

Every thing they say about us, Islam is. And that’s why they hate us.

Mr. Arkadin on September 12, 2013 at 12:22 AM

1321: In Guienne, France, Jews were accused of having incited criminals to poison wells. 5,000 Jews were burned alive, at the stake.

1338: The councilors of Freiburg banned the performance of anti-Jewish scenes from the town’s passion play because of the lethal bloody reactions against Jews which followed the performances.

1347 +: Because of the Black Death People searched for someone to blame. They noted that a smaller percentage of Jews than Christians caught the disease. This was undoubtedly due to the Jewish sanitary and dietary laws, which had been preserved from Old Testament times. Rumors circulated that Satan was protecting the Jews and that they were paying back the Devil by poisoning wells used by Christians. The solution was to torture, murder and burn the Jews. “In Bavaria…12,000 Jews…perished; in the small town of Erfurt…3,000; Rue Brul�e…2,000 Jews; near Tours, an immense trench was dug, filled with blazing wood and in a single day 160 Jews were burned.” 5 In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed…; in Worms 400…”

1354: 12,000 Jews were executed in Toledo.

1374: Do to a rumor spread by the church that God was angry because Christians had been excessively tolerant towards the Jews. God had cursed Europe as He did Saul when he showed mercy towards God’s enemies in the Old Testament. Jews “were plundered, tortured and murdered by tens of thousands.” The epidemic finally burned itself out two centuries later, in the late 16th century.

1391 : Jewish persecutions begin in Seville and in 70 other Jewish communities throughout Spain.

1394 : Jews were exiled, for the second time, from France.

1431 +: The Council of Basel “forbade Jews to go to universities, prohibited them from acting as agents in the conclusion of contracts between Christians, and required that they attend church sermons.”

1434: “Jewish men in Augsburg had to sew yellow buttons to their clothes. Across Europe, Jews were forced to wear a long undergarment, an overcoat with a yellow patch, bells and tall pointed yellow hats with a large button on them.”

1453 : The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to terminate all Jewish civil rights.

1478: Spanish Jews had been heavily persecuted from the 14th century. Many had converted to Christianity. The Spanish Inquisition was set up by the Church in order to detect insincere conversions. Laws were passed that prohibited the descendants of Jews or Muslims from attending university, joining religious orders, holding public office, or entering any of a long list of professions.

1492 : Jews were given the choice of being baptized as Christians or be banished from Spain. 300,000 left Spain penniless. Many migrated to Turkey, where they found tolerance among the Muslims. Others converted to Christianity but often continued to practice Judaism in secret.

1497: Jews were banished from Portugal. 20 thousand left the country rather than be baptized as Christians.

1516: The Governor of the Republic of Venice decided that Jews would be permitted to live only in one area of the city. It was located in the South Girolamo parish and was called the “Ghetto Novo.” This was the first ghetto in Europe. Hitler made use of the concept in the 1930′s.

1523: Martin Luther distributed his essay “That Jesus Was Born a Jew. ” He hoped that large numbers of Jews would convert to Christianity. They didn’t, and he began to write and preach hatred against them. Luther has been condemned in recent years for being extremely antisemitic. The charge has some merit; however he was probably typical of most Christians during his era.

1539: A passion play was forbidden in Rome because it prompted violent attacks against the city’s Jewish residents.

1540: Jews were exiled from Naples.

1543: In his 20′s, Martin Luther, had expected Jews to convert to Christianity in large numbers. Distressed by their reluctance, he developed a hatred for Jews, as expressed in his letters to Rev. Spalatin in 1514, when he was 31 years of age. He wrote:
“I have come to the conclusion that the Jews will always curse and blaspheme God and his King Christ, as all the prophets have predicted….For they are thus given over by the wrath of God to reprobation, that they may become incorrigible, as Ecclesiastes says, for every one who is incorrigible is rendered worse rather than better by correction.”

In 1543, he wrote “On the Jews and their lies, On Shem Hamphoras” :
“…eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God’s anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!…What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?

JustTheFacts on September 12, 2013 at 1:13 AM

Every thing they say about us, Islam is. And that’s why they hate us.

Mr. Arkadin on September 12, 2013 at 12:22 AM

Martin Luther rules to get rid of the Jews:

First, their synagogues or churches should be set on fire,…
Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed… They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies.
Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.
Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more…
Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews…
Sixthly, they ought to be stopped from usury. All their cash and valuables of silver and gold ought to be taken from them and put aside for safe keeping…
Seventhly, let the young and strong Jews and Jewesses be given the flail, the axe, the hoe, the spade, the distaff, and spindle and let them earn their bread by the sweat of their noses as in enjoined upon Adam’s children…
To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden – the Jews.”

1550: Jews were exiled from Genoa and Venice.

1555-JUL-12: A Roman Catholic Papal bull, “Cum nimis absurdum,” required Jews to wear badges, and live in ghettos. They were not allowed to own property outside the ghetto. Living conditions were dreadful: over 3,000 people were forced to live in about 8 acres of land. Women had to wear a yellow veil or scarf; men had to wear a piece of yellow cloth on their hat.

1582: Jews were expelled from Holland.

1648-9: Chmielnicki Bogdan led an uprising against Polish rule in the Ukraine. The secondary goal of Bogdan and his followers was to exterminate all Jews in the country. The massacre began with the slaughter of about 6,000 Jews in Nemirov. Other major mass murders occurred in Tulchin, Polonnoye, Volhynia, Bar, Lvov, etc. Jewish records estimate that a total of 100,000 Jews were murdered and 300 communities destroyed.

1806: A French Jesuit Priest, Abbe Barruel, had written a treatise blaming the Masonic Order for the French Revolution. He later issued a letter alleging that Jews, not the Masons were the guilty party. This triggered a belief in an international Jewish conspiracy in Germany, Poland and some other European countries later in the 19th century.

1819: During the late 18th and early 19th centuries, many European Jews lobbied their governments for emancipation. They sought citizenship as well as the same rights and treatment as were enjoyed by non-Jews. This appears to have provoked sporadic anti-semites to engage in anti-Jewish violence. The rioters cried “Hep! Hep!.” The origin(s) of this cry are not clear. Jews and their property were attacked first in Wuerzburg, Germany during 1819-AUG. The rioting spread across Germany and eventually reached as far as Denmark and Poland.

1840: A rumor spread in Syria that some Jews were responsible for the ritual killing of a Roman Catholic monk and his servant. As a result of horrendous treatment, some local Jews confessed to a crime that they did not commit. This “Damascus Affair” spurred early Zionist writers like Hess to promote the Zionist cause. More details.

1846 – 1878: Pope Pius IX restored all of the previous restrictions against the Jews within the Vatican state. All Jews under Papal control were confined to Rome’s ghetto – the last one in Europe until the Nazi era restored the church’s practice. On 2000-SEP-3, Pope John Paul II beatified Pius IX; this is the last step before sainthood. He explained: “Beatifying a son of the church does not celebrate particular historic choices that he has made, but rather points him out for imitation and for veneration for his virtue.”

1858: Edgardo Mortara was kidnapped, at the age of six, from his Jewish family by Roman Catholic officials after they found out that a maid had secretly baptized him. He was not returned to his family but was raised a Catholic. He eventually became a priest.

1873: The term “antisemitism” is first used in a pamphlet by Wilhelm Marr called “Jewry’s Victory over Teutonism.”

1881: Alexander II of Russia was assassinated by radicals. The Jews were blamed. About 200 individual pogroms against the Jews followed. (“Pogrom” is a Russian word meaning “devastation” or “riot.” In Russia, a pogrom was typically a mob riot against Jewish individuals, shops, homes or businesses. They were often supported and even organized by the government.) Thousands of Jews became homeless and impoverished. The few who were charged with offenses generally received very light sentences.

1893: “…anti-Semitic parties won sixteen seats in the German Reichstag.”

1894: Captain Alfred Dreyfus, an officer on the French general staff, was convicted of treason. The evidence against him consisted of a piece of paper from his wastebasket with another person’s handwriting, and papers forged by antisemitic officers. He received a life sentence on Devil’s Island, off the coast of South America. The French government was aware that a Major Esterhazy was actually guilty. The church, government and army united to suppress the truth. Writer Emile Zola and politician Jean Jaur? fought for justice and human rights. After 10 years, the French government fell and Drefus was declared totally innocent. The Dreyfus Affair was world-wide news for years. It motivated Journalist Theodor Herzl to write a book in 1896: “The Jewish State: A Modern Solution to the Jewish Question.” The book led to the founding of the Zionist movement which fought for a Jewish Homeland. A half century later, the state of Israel was born.

1903: At Easter, government agents organized an anti-Jewish pogrom in Kishinev, Moldova, Russia. The local newspaper published a series of inflammatory articles. A Christian child was discovered murdered and a young Christian woman at the Jewish Hospital committed suicide. Jews were blamed for the deaths. Violence ensured. The 5,000 soldiers in the town did nothing. When the smoke cleared, 49 Jews had been killed, 500 were injured; 700 homes looted and destroyed, 600 businesses and shops looted, 2,000 families left homeless. Later, it was discovered that the child had been murdered by its relatives and the suicide was unrelated to the Jews.

1905: The Okhrana, the Russian secret police in the reign of Czar Nicholas II, converted an earlier antisemitic novel into a document called the “Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.” 16 It was published privately in 1897. A Russian Orthodox priest, Sergius Nilus, published them publicly in 1905. It was promoted as the record of “secret rabbinical conferences whose aim was to subjugate and exterminate the Christians.” 5 The Protocols were used by the Okhrana in a propaganda campaign that was associated with massacres of the Jews. These were the Czarist Pogroms of 1905.

1915: 600,000 Jews were forcibly moved from the western borders of Russia towards the interior. About 100,000 died of exposure or starvation.

1917: “In the civil war following the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, the reactionary White Armies made extensive use of the Protocols to incite widespread slaughters of Jews.” 5 Two hundred thousand Jews were murdered in the Ukraine alone.

1920: The Protocols reach England and the United States. They are exposed as a forgery, but are widely circulated. Henry Ford sponsored a study of international activities of Jews. This led to a series of antisemitic articles in the Dearborn Independent, which were published in a book, “The International Jew.” The Protocols were sold on Wal-Mart’s online bookstore until they were removed on 2004-SEP-21.

1920: The defeat of Germany in World War I and the continuing economic difficulties were blamed in that country on the “Jewish influence.” One antisemitic poster has been preserved from that era. It shows a German, presumably Christian woman, a male Jew with distorted facial features, a coffin and the word “Deutschland” (Germany).

1920′s, 1930′s: Hitler had published in Mein Kampf in 1925, writing: “Today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” The Protocols are used by the Nazis to whip up public hatred of the Jews in the 1930′s. Widespread pogroms occur in Greece, Hungary, Mexico, Poland, Rumania, and the USSR. Radio programs by many conservative American clergy, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, frequently attacked Jews. Reverend Fr. Charles E Coughlin was one of the best known. “In the 1930′s, radio audiences heard him rail against the threat of Jews to America’s economy and defend Hitler’s treatment of Jews as justified in the fight against communism.”

Other conservative Christian leaders, such as Frank Norris and John Straton supported the Jews.
Discrimination against Jews in North America is widespread. Many universities set limits on the maximum number of Jewish students that they would accept. Harvard accepted all students on the basis of merit until after World War I when the percentage of Jewish students approached 15%. At that time they installed an informal quota system. In 1941, Princeton had fewer than 2% Jews in their student body. Jews were routinely barred from country clubs, prestigious neighborhoods, etc.

1933: Hitler took power in Germany. On APR-1, Julius Streicher organized a one-day boycott of all Jewish owned businesses in the country. This was the start of continuous oppression by the Nazis culminating in the Holocaust (a.k.a. Shoah). Jews “were barred from civil service, legal professions and universities, were not allowed to teach in schools and could not be editors of newspapers.” 2 Two years later, Jews were no longer considered citizens.

1934: Various laws were enacted in Germany to force Jews out of schools and professions.

1935: The Nazis passed the Nuremberg Laws restricting citizenship to those of “German or related blood.” Jews became stateless.

1936: Cardinal Hloud of Poland urged Catholics to boycott Jewish businesses.

1938: On NOV-9, the Nazi government in Germany sent storm troopers, the SS and the Hitler Youth on a pogrom that killed 91 Jews, injured hundreds, burned 177 synagogues and looted 7,500 Jewish stores. Broken glass could be seen everywhere; the glass gave this event its name of Kristallnacht, the Night of Broken Glass.

1938: Hitler brought back century-old church law, ordering all Jews to wear a yellow Star of David as identification. A few hundred thousand Jews are allowed to leave Germany after they give all of their assets to the government.

1939: The Holocaust, the Shoah — the systematic extermination of Jews in Germany — began. The process only ended in 1945 with the conclusion of World War II and the liberation of the death camps. Approximately 6 million Jews (1.5 million of them children), 400 thousand Roma (Gypsies) and others were slaughtered. Some were killed by death squads; others were slowly killed in trucks with carbon monoxide; others were gassed in large groups in Auschwitz, Dacau, Sobibor, Treblinka and other extermination camps. Officially, the holocaust was described by the Nazis as subjecting Jews “to special treatment” or as a “solution of the Jewish question.” Gold taken from the teeth of the victims was recycled; hair was used in the manufacture of mattresses. In the Buchenwald extermination camp, lampshades were made out of human skin; however, this appears to be an isolated incident. A rumor spread that Jewish corpses were routinely converted into soap. However, the story appears to be false.

1940: The Vichy government of France collaborated with Nazi Germany by freezing about 80,000 Jewish bank accounts. During the next four years, they deported about 76,000 Jews to Nazi death camps; only about 2,500 survived. It was only in 1995 that a French president, Jacques Chirac, “was able to admit that the state bore a heavy share of responsibility in the mass round-ups and deportations of Jews, as well as in the property and asset seizures that were carried out with the active help of the Vichy regime.”

1941: The Holocaust Museum in Washington DC estimates that 13,000 Jews died on 1941-JUN-19 during a pogrom in Bucharest, Romania. It was ordered by the pro-Nazi Romanian regime of Marshal Ion Antonescu. The current government has admitted that this atrocity happened, but most Romanians continue to deny that the Jews were killed on orders from their own government.

1941: Polish citizens in Jedwabne in northeastern Poland killed hundreds of Jews, by either beating them to death or burning them alive in a barn. According to the Associated Press: “The role played by Polish citizens was suppressed for nearly six decades until publication of a book by a Polish emigre historian, Jan Tomasz Gross. After release of the book in 2000, the Polish government launched an investigation. ‘The role of the Poles was decisive in conducting the criminal act,’ [prosecutor Radoslaw] Ignatiew, said. The book, ‘Neighbours,’ sparked national soul-searching among Poles, many of whom could not believe that anybody but the Nazis would have committed the atrocity.”

1942: The Nazi leaders of Germany, at the Wannsee conference, decided on”the final solution of the Jewish question” which was the attempt to exterminate every Jew in Europe. From JUL-28 to 31, almost 18,000 Russian inhabitants of the Minsk ghetto in what is now Belarus were exterminated. This was in addition to 5,000 to 15,000 who had been massacred in earlier pogroms in that city. This was just one of many such pogroms during World War II.

1945: The Shoah (Holocaust) ended as the Allied Forces over-ran the Nazi death camps.

1946: Even though World War II ended the year before, antisemitic pogroms continued, particularly in Poland, with the deaths of many Jews.

JustTheFacts on September 12, 2013 at 1:23 AM

Never forget that Ron Paul’s first thoughts about 9/11 was that his fellow Americans were behind it.

Alberta_Patriot on September 11, 2013 at 8:50 PM

And I’m sure you can provide a link to that, since you risk the fate of being called a bald-faced liar if you cannot…

JohnGalt23 on September 12, 2013 at 2:02 AM

Never forget that Ron Paul’s first thoughts about 9/11 was that his fellow Americans were behind it.

Alberta_Patriot on September 11, 2013 at 8:50 PM

And I’m sure you can provide a link to that, since you risk the fate of being called a bald-faced liar if you cannot…

JohnGalt23 on September 12, 2013 at 2:02 AM

Here you go, Mr. Galt.

Herr Doktor Paul’s exact words “I have abandoned those views”.

He never should have had them.

Ron Paul is an enemy sympathizer. He spits upon the graves of our honored dead and comforts their. By revealing that for even a moment he entertained “those views” he has declared himself morally and intellectually unfit to hold office over a free people.

Alberta_Patriot on September 12, 2013 at 2:15 AM

JustTheFacts on September 12, 2013 at 1:23 AM

You don’t really think anyone reads all that crap, do you?

Ronnie on September 12, 2013 at 2:34 AM

People like you keep libertarian thought on the fringes, when it has many good things to say. Thanks for ruining it for everyone.

thebrokenrattle on September 12, 2013 at 12:12 AM

Uh, why did I ruin it? How is talking about what has happened to our government, our country, keeping ideas on the fringe? Honestly, I haven’t seen much to celebrate when it comes to our country given what our government has done to us in the last 12 years. Its real hard to wave a flag when the result of those losses of life is TSA fondling, IRS insanity, NSA spying, obamacare and gun grabbers running rampant.

oryguncon on September 12, 2013 at 2:46 AM

Hate this muslim-loving weasel!

redware on September 12, 2013 at 7:09 AM

Paul is an old fool. As AP suggests, he backs his way into these idiotic positions by working from his habitual premise: we have no protectable interests off our shores.

Jaibones on September 12, 2013 at 8:51 AM

this, calling bradley de-manning a patriot, far offsets his positive items for me.

dmacleo on September 12, 2013 at 11:05 AM

antifederalist on September 11, 2013 at 10:24 PM

And with that post, you may stop lecturing others on isolationism.

France did NOT get involved in the American Revolution to help us, the reason they showed up so late is that they were doing what they REALLY supported the Americans for – raiding British colonies and shipping world wide to try and snatch a few goodies for themselves. The American Revolution simply gave them a convenient excuse to do it – sound familiar?

And Ron Paul’s version of what we should do was tried – and predictably failed – simply read the history of pre-WWII 20th century for an education.

PJ Emeritus on September 12, 2013 at 3:20 PM

Comment pages: 1 2