Pew poll: Major swing against government surveillance among tea partiers

posted at 11:21 am on July 29, 2013 by Allahpundit

If you’ve been following the Christie-versus-Paul “battle for the soul of the GOP” meme since Friday, don’t miss this important gloss from Pew. How major has the “major swing” among tea partiers been? Feast your eyes:

tp1

Three years ago, at least a plurality of every ideological segment except moderate Democrats thought the feds didn’t go far enough to protect the country. Three years later, nearly every segment has swung the other way. The only holdouts are moderate Democrats (oddly) and moderate Republicans. More specifically, non-tea-party Republicans tilt 41/43 towards thinking the feds haven’t done enough to protect the country; among tea partiers, the tilt is … 55/31 towards thinking they’ve gone too far in restricting civil liberties, a 35-point(!) swing since 2010. That’s what a battle for the soul of the party looks like — a double-digit spread among the centrist and conservative wings on a key point of national security.

Normally I’d dismiss a turnaround as sharp as that as driven by partisan reaction to the White House. Elect a Democratic president and you’ll see Dems warm to his counterterror program and Republicans sour on it, no matter how much it resembles the last GOP administration’s program. But Pew’s reference point here isn’t an earlier poll taken during the Bush era; it’s 2010, nearly two years into Hopenchange. This shift has happened entirely on Obama’s watch. And it’s not just Republicans who’ve decided that the feds have gone too far. A narrow plurality of Democrats now agree. It’s bipartisan and it’s recent — although it’s most pronounced on the right:

tp2

On the specific question of NSA surveillance, the tea party is net -28 and the rest of the GOP is +6, which raises two questions. One: How does Chris Christie or Rand Paul bridge that gap as nominee in 2016? I’m tempted to say that it won’t matter much, that government spying is, for better or worse, a marginal issue in a primary vis-a-vis cutting spending, immigration reform, etc, but it won’t be marginal next time thanks to Paul’s presence in the race and prominent hawks’ insistence on attacking him early. Gonna be a lot of hard feelings when the dust settles; who knows what that means for the general election. Two, more importantly: Why such a shift against surveillance since 2010? Much of it, I assume, is recent, a reaction to Snowden’s revelations about the extent of the spying. But I think Paul’s ascendance is another factor, at least on the right — not because the NSA was a major talking point for him until this year but because his prominence as a defender of the tea party is bound to make tea partiers more sympathetic to his overall agenda on civil liberties. That’s been his plan all along, to turn the TP from a movement focused narrowly on spending and taxes into a broader libertarian movement. He’s made major inroads on that if Pew’s data is right. How durable that influence will be if/when America elects another Republican president and the White House insists on maintaining robust surveillance, I don’t know. Some of this is being driven by antipathy to, and distrust of, Obama specifically. The question is how much.

Having said all that, I want you to click and eyeball the first graph on Pew’s page. Skepticism among the general public abounds about whether court oversight of the NSA program is adequate, whether the data collected is being used properly, whether the government’s collecting only metadata or something more — and yet, when push comes to shove, 50 percent approve of the program versus 44 percent who disapprove. Among people who think the government has read their own personal communications, 40 percent nonetheless support surveillance. That’s right in line with last week’s WaPo poll which found 51 percent think the NSA program is justified versus 40 percent who think it isn’t, even though a chunk of that 51 percent also think the program is too intrusive. That is to say, there’s some segment of the public that supports the surveillance state despite being under no illusions about its perils. They know they’re being spied on, they don’t like it, but they’re willing to tolerate it in the name of catching bad guys. The only way to move the needle on that, I think, is if a Republican is elected in 2016 and the tea party maintains its robust opposition to surveillance. In that case, a bunch of Democrats will swing from support to opposition on partisan grounds and that, along with the tea party’s opposition, will make a new majority. Is the tea party likely to be that steadfast, even with a GOPer in the White House? You tell me.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2

But John McCain says it’s good!!!!

Dack Thrombosis on July 29, 2013 at 11:23 AM

Anyone who trusts pathetic bureaucrats to provide security is a moron.

Flange on July 29, 2013 at 11:25 AM

Peter King wants you all to know that you’re paranoid, anti-government loons who should shut up.

Now, let him get back to supporting the IRA because shut up.

MadisonConservative on July 29, 2013 at 11:25 AM

I wrote the following earlier, and I want to add that people saying they don’t like the NSA surveillance are really just saying they don’t trust Obama. It is a partisan thing. AP struggles to find a way to call this a true bipartisan thing, but it’s clearly not.

The truth is that the amnesty squish libertarian Rand Paul wants us to retreat on gay marriage and embrace pot legalization as a way to put Calif in play. Now, I’m kind of ambivalent about the pot thing, but I find Paul’s call for the party to tilt libertarian to be foolish. It won’t work. There simply is no great libertarian ground swell out there.

Rand Paul opposes E-Verify and was one of the worst offenders when it came to sanctifying the vile, anti-American traitor Edward Snowden. Paul drools over the traitor Snowden and seems a little too interested in “protecting” the rights of terror suspects… you almost have to wonder if Rand Paul is some kind of honorary Code Pink member.

The party base supports the Patriot Act, and Paul will get nowhere with his paranoia about anti-terror surveillance. Christie will eat meek, dull Rand alive on this, and that’s why we need a real conservative like Cruz to take out Christie. Christie may be fat, but Cruz has bigger balls won’t back down in the face of bigmouth Christie.
What also disgusts me is how the usual Rand Paul fanboys on here are so quick to brush aside Paul’s weak border security positions and then bash an actual conservative star like Ted Cruz.
But I guess we’re supposed to be okay with Rand Paul’s squishiness on amnesty and his isolationism because, well, there is this supposed groundswell of libertarianism a brewin’ among the youth, and we supposedly need to adjust our thinking to conform to it, or something.

No thanks. I’ll go with the guy who speaks for me and excites me and fights for what’s right. Right now a guy I see doing that and doing it well is the new senator from Texas.
bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:20 AM

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM

Color me not surprised.

gophergirl on July 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM

This is just a part of the government is too big and too intrusive into our lives debate.

The Christie, King, McCain crowd can’t rail against the size and scope of government then support a larger NSA footprint; it’s defies logic.

Tater Salad on July 29, 2013 at 11:29 AM

I was against TSA and the making of the Department of Homeland Security. Was when Bush was in office, am with Obama in office and will be no matter who is in office. I am against the NSA spying on American Citizens, it needs to concentrate on on its duties, foreign intelligence.

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 11:30 AM

I wrote the following earlier, and I want to add that people saying they don’t like the NSA surveillance are really just saying they don’t trust Obama. It is a partisan thing.

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM

So first, we were traitors, and now, we’re just partisan anti-Obama Republicans?

You need medication, pal.

MadisonConservative on July 29, 2013 at 11:31 AM

You TPers are nuts I tell ya, don’t you get it? Our most benevolent govt is trying to save your life by tapping into everything you do to find the bad guys, sheesh…They won’t use what they gathered against ya, you silly contheory spirasists (courtesy Sparkplug)

Serious Snark folks :)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:32 AM

It’s not hard to figure out. The NSA scandal is the main driver of this, but the fact is the entire government is out of control. You’ve got the NSA spying on us to a degree that even most of our politicians can’t be certain of. The IRS is targeting conservatives, Tea Partiers, major GOP donors, and even Christian and pro-Israel groups. The DOJ is going after reporters for….reporting. And of course we have Obama ordering the assassinations of 4 American citizens.

Add that all up and it’s no wonder you have a lot of folks who suddenly are no longer willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt in matters of national security.

Doughboy on July 29, 2013 at 11:32 AM

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM

Despite your assertion, I don’t think you can distinguish Paul’s positions from Cruz’s on many things. They see each other as allies in the war against an out of control government.

Tater Salad on July 29, 2013 at 11:33 AM

Is reading my email about protecting the country?
Yeah, I didn’t think so.

vityas on July 29, 2013 at 11:33 AM

The public needs to understand that we

Valkyriepundit on July 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM

A lot of these so-called tea partiers are just reacting to what talk show hosts say. They hear they are supposed to be against the NSA because they were told that Obama is spying on them.

I believe true patriots and most principled tea partiers know that tough anti-terror measures, AS WELL as proper oversight, are necessary… whether we have a Dem in the White House or a Republican.

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM

I was against TSA and the making of the Department of Homeland Security. Was when Bush was in office, am with Obama in office and will be no matter who is in office. I am against the NSA spying on American Citizens, it needs to concentrate on on its duties, foreign intelligence.

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 11:30 AM

Bingo! That’s why the the F in FISA stands for Foreign.

Tater Salad on July 29, 2013 at 11:35 AM

Despite your assertion, I don’t think you can distinguish Paul’s positions from Cruz’s on many things. They see each other as allies in the war against an out of control government.
Tater Salad on July 29, 2013 at 11:33 AM

Rand Paul opposes E-Verify and is open to amnesty if there are a few more promises to secure the border. That’s a big and important difference for me.

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:35 AM

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM

(Eye Bleach may be needed)

Bluegill:I’ll go with the guy who speaks for me and excites me….

Bluegill and Goebbels both orgasming simultaniously…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:35 AM

Spied Enough Already?

faraway on July 29, 2013 at 11:36 AM

The public needs to understand that we’re at war and that war means casualties and not only among soldiers. No surveilance, no matter how thorough, will ever change that. So we might as well keep our liberties – which is a better deal anyway – get rid of the illusion of security and accept the realities of war.

Valkyriepundit on July 29, 2013 at 11:37 AM

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM

Would you so-called shut yer trap for a while, and SPEAK FOR YOUR DAMN SELF!!
You make me so sick with your patronizing ways…

* spit *

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:39 AM

I support the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I don’t care who’s in the White House. Yes, I want security, but you don’t get that by warrantless spying on innocent Americans.

I was against Bush’s end around on the FISA courts, and I’m against the NSA’s limitless surveillance. Had I known about that in 2006, I would have been against it then too.

I admit that like anyone else I get can sucked into partisanship at times, but on this issue my beliefs are 100% consistent.

Oh, and if you catch me on something where my beliefs appear not to be consistent due to partisanship, feel free to point it out to me. If you’re correct, I will adjust my views accordingly.

Chris of Rights on July 29, 2013 at 11:39 AM

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:28 AM

I’d take a Cruz any day over a Paul as well, but I’d take a Paul twice on Sundays over a Christie or a Rubio, so there is that.

melle1228 on July 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM

Bombshell: Chambliss admits NSA has been reading your emails until recently

we don’t monitor emails. That’s what assures me that what the reporting is is not correct. Because no emails are monitored now. There used to be, but that was two, three years ago.

The NSA collects your phone calls, websites visited and Google searches and keeps them for at least 5 years. Anyone in the government can see it without a warrant.

faraway on July 29, 2013 at 11:43 AM

This illusion of ‘security’ does not give me cause to feel any safer, in fact I now feel less safe than before…

The govt has extended its reach deep into our lives and wants even more to intrude on us…

If we let them continue, there is no end in sight as to how they will see fit to use our personal and private information, for us and especially, against us…

STOP THE SPYING!!

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:44 AM

Maybe so, but libertarians just want to shoot heroin and have gay sex, right astonerii?

John the Libertarian on July 29, 2013 at 11:45 AM

There simply is no great libertarian ground swell out there.

The party base supports the Patriot Act, and Paul will get nowhere with his paranoia about anti-terror surveillance. Christie will eat meek, dull Rand alive on this…

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:20 AM

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 11:46 AM

Maybe so, but libertarians just want to shoot heroin and have gay sex, right astonerii?

John the Libertarian on July 29, 2013 at 11:45 AM

And commit mass legalized suicide.. don’t forget that. :)

melle1228 on July 29, 2013 at 11:47 AM

Bluegill would be fine with all of this if Romney won.

Dack Thrombosis on July 29, 2013 at 11:47 AM

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 11:46 AM

Good Morning RWM!! Nice to see you :)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:47 AM

A lot of these so-called tea partiers are just reacting to what talk show hosts say. They hear they are supposed to be against the NSA because they were told that Obama is spying on them.

I believe true patriots and most principled tea partiers know that tough anti-terror measures, AS WELL as proper oversight, are necessary… whether we have a Dem in the White House or a Republican.

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM

Then, explain why Jim Sensenbrenner, the primary author of the Patriot Act, voted FOR the Amash amendment.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:47 AM

G’day, my friend!

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:20 AM

…Still stirring the pot…

Watch you don’t fall in girly!! :)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM

Don’t forget, this is a “phony” scandal, so no reason to worry.

Tater Salad on July 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM

But John McCain says it’s good!!!!

Dack Thrombosis on July 29, 2013 at 11:23 AM

John McCain molests collies…

JohnGalt23 on July 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM

Then, explain why Jim Sensenbrenner, the primary author of the Patriot Act, voted FOR the Amash amendment.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM

Set your clock hon, it may be a long time coming!! ;)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:50 AM

Obama=Phony

Phony Scandal

faraway on July 29, 2013 at 11:50 AM

A lot of these so-called tea partiers are just reacting to what talk show hosts say. They hear they are supposed to be against the NSA because they were told that Obama is spying on them.

I believe true patriots and most principled tea partiers know that tough anti-terror measures, AS WELL as proper oversight, are necessary… whether we have a Dem in the White House or a Republican… bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM

…because I heard Chris Matthews say that.

Akzed on July 29, 2013 at 11:50 AM

Phony Jobs Pivot

Phony Benghazi Rescue

Phony Cincinnati IRS bungle

faraway on July 29, 2013 at 11:51 AM

JohnGalt23 on July 29, 2013 at 11:49 AM
John McCain molests collies…

Lmao, hahahahahahahaha!! Nice :)

Hot tea thru the nose isn’t pleasant you know!! ;)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:51 AM

faraway on July 29, 2013 at 11:51 AM

The govt is PHONY!!

Lying liars lying over and over…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:53 AM

Who remembers THE FACT that Ted Cruz took to the Senate floor and spoke eloquently IN FAVOR of Rand Paul’s filibuster, which some claim was based upon ‘paranoia’?

At least one here seems to have forgotten.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 11:54 AM

Rand Paul opposes E-Verify and is open to amnesty if there are a few more promises to secure the border. That’s a big and important difference for me.

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:35 AM

Meh, a new government bureaucracy? A new giant computerized database?

equanimous on July 29, 2013 at 11:54 AM

Come on, trashfish, do I have to borrow one of Del’s sundials?

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 11:55 AM

The only possible explanation for this swing is that everyone has become more racist. /

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 11:56 AM

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 11:55 AM

Oh that’s a good retort!!

YOU are on the ball as usual!! I love it :D

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:56 AM

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 11:56 AM

Maybe that’ll fix it yeah!

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Bluegill just loves ALL the attention that the govt is gonna give her, cuz she lacks any in her personal life… O_0

That’s why she is for all this extra-curricular spying…

Feel real safe eh bluegill?

May I suggest you MOVE to um CUBA for example? I am sure you would be much much happier there and feel oh so safe ;)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:01 PM

Maybe that’ll fix it yeah!

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Yes, we all be a bunch of racists! /

What idiots like our present troll don’t get is that we wouldn’t tolerate this BSA snooping from a Republican president, either. So why would we feel comfortable about it under a Democrat?

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:01 PM

Maybe so, but libertarians just want to shoot heroin and have gay sex, right astonerii?

John the Libertarian on July 29, 2013 at 11:45 AM

No, they also want to live off other people’s paychecks while they do it and have other people fund their recovery when it all goes bad.

They want to live in a civil society in which they are allowed to be completely uncivil and benefit from that incivility.

They are really just “libertarians” but they are pretty much your allies, the ones you claim are calling for the nation to move towards your utopia. Since you claim them in your numbers for moving the nation, then you have to live with their realities.

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 12:01 PM

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:01 PM

Unfortunately hagfish doesn’t live in reality :)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:03 PM

Streaming Live Now:

Hose Explosion!

Please don’t comment:)
***********************

local
Explosion Levels Homes, 6 Hurt

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Baby-Hurt-in-House-Collapse-Philadelphia-217394531.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

canopfor on July 29, 2013 at 12:03 PM

Skepticism among the general public abounds about whether court oversight of the NSA program is adequate

As should be the case when…

In 33 years, the kangaroo court with a rubber stamp a/k/a the FISC has only refused the government 11 times.

33,949 applications for warrants have been presented to the FISC since 1979.

33,938 warrant applications have been approved by the FISC since 1979.

IOW, the FISC has approved warrant applications 99.97% of the time since 1979.

You’d have to go to North Korea to get a higher court approval rate than that.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM

canopfor on July 29, 2013 at 12:03 PM

Ty for that news!

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:06 PM

No, they also want to live off other people’s paychecks while they do it and have other people fund their recovery when it all goes bad.

Soooo weird. I’m against any and all subsidisation, welfare programmes, and would do away with Medicare and Medicaid, if I were given the opportunity.

Next up from the ignorant: All libertarians are (Ron) Paulistinians!

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:06 PM

R

esist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM

On top of that is the story that Chief Justice Roberts is the one who hand-picked the judges of the secret courts.

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:07 PM

Another harbinger of the end of RINOism and the emergence of a new coalition – either in the Party or from a new party. Romney was the last whimpering hurrah.

rrpjr on July 29, 2013 at 12:08 PM

On top of that is the story that Chief Justice Roberts is the one who hand-picked the judges of the secret courts.

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:07 PM

What’s too fear about that???

///

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:08 PM

It’s not a partisan thing. There are a huge number of us that don’t like big government and big government activities – regardless of the letter after the name of the executive in charge of the massive bureaucracy – a bureaucracy too big for anyone to manage.

blink on July 29, 2013 at 12:05 PM

Well said blink, unfortunately, I think you waste your time with bluegill, she just doesn’t get it, she is a liberal at heart and won’t hear us out, her mind is fixed and focused, can’t change static thought! Even tho she tries so hard to come across as a conservative, she lacks far too much to be convincing…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:09 PM

Pew poll: Major swing against government surveillance among tea partiers

Good. I hope the rest of the country catches up soon.

BoxHead1 on July 29, 2013 at 12:10 PM

Soooo weird. I’m against any and all subsidisation, welfare programmes, and would do away with Medicare and Medicaid, if I were given the opportunity.

Next up from the ignorant: All libertarians are (Ron) Paulistinians!

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:06 PM

They are really just “libertarians” but they are pretty much your allies, the ones you claim are calling for the nation to move towards your utopia. Since you claim them in your numbers for moving the nation, then you have to live with their realities.

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 12:01 PM

Your reading comprehension a little shaky there?

Of course, if you support legalizing all the activities that are currently illegal that lead to government dependence ahead of getting rid of said subsidization, then you can count yourself in with the “libertarians” who are nothing more than children with no responsibility and all the lusts for joy untempered with personal responsibility.

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 12:11 PM

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 12:11 PM

Fail. Again, I do not support subsidisation. If people want to be dependent on drugs and starve, fine with me.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:13 PM

Hmmmmmm,troubling me thinks!

canopfor on July 29, 2013 at 12:14 PM

IOW, the FISC has approved warrant applications 99.97% of the time since 1979.

You’d have to go to North Korea to get a higher court approval rate than that.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM

Actually Kim Jong-un is constantly prodding his own courts with the FISC warrant approval stats: “Why can’t you guys do that. Get it light!”

de rigueur on July 29, 2013 at 12:14 PM

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:06 PM

I do believe in the need for a ‘safety net’ but limited and based upon looking for employment.

As for Medicare/aid, I think the govt should get out of that ‘biz’ and I feel that self funded health savings accts would be better suited, same as for SS for retirement, I don’t like market based 401ks but somthing else would benefit more than giving the govt more money to use willy nilly, and I think people would invest it far better than the govt ever did…just my 2 cents :)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:15 PM

BTW, honey, I don’t believe in Utopia. I am far too knowledgeable of history and the inherent imperfection of man to believe in the folly of Homo Perfectus.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:15 PM

It’s not a partisan thing. There are a huge number of us that don’t like big government and big government activities –
blink on July 29, 2013 at 12:05 PM

Exactly. That’s why it’s such a political opportunity. There’s gold in them hills for Rand Paul, or someone with the skills and sentiments to exploit it.

rrpjr on July 29, 2013 at 12:19 PM

We Go Back in time,to watch Bidens Reversal on Spying:

Watch 2013 Obama debate 2006 Biden on NSA surveillance

Xeni Jardin at 3:24 pm Fri, Jun 14, 2013
****************************************

Watch then-Senator Joe Biden from 2006 directly refute each point made by his now-boss, President Barack Obama, about the NSA surveillance program at a news conference last week.

http://boingboing.net/2013/06/14/watch-2013-obama-debate-2006-b.html

canopfor on July 29, 2013 at 12:19 PM

What’s too fear about that???

///

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:08 PM

too = to

I’m blaming a Freudian slip and not my hardheaded refusal to proofread. lol

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:20 PM

A lot of these so-called tea partiers are just reacting to what talk show hosts say. They hear they are supposed to be against the NSA because they were told that Obama is spying on them.

I believe true patriots and most principled tea partiers know that tough anti-terror measures, AS WELL as proper oversight, are necessary… whether we have a Dem in the White House or a Republican.

bluegill on July 29, 2013 at 11:34 AM

I would suggest that most “true patriots” understand that adherence to the US Constitution and the rule of law do more to guarantee the safety of citizens than seizing and storing all digital communications within this country. You’re not “safe” if your own government is violating your rights on a daily basis.

Wendya on July 29, 2013 at 12:21 PM

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:15 PM

The government doesn’t invest in anything except its own power. Some in government are kicking around the idea of Washington taking over and ‘managing’ all private retirement accounts, which adds up to about $20 trillion. It’s bad enough Washington has to be informed by your bank if you make a deposit of $10,000 or more, because of the so-called ‘drug war’.

Washington is watching everything we do. I can’t make a date with a woman over the phone without some NSA letch finding out about it. Abd the idea that the United States, formerly a nation built on individual liberty, has secret courts with basically no accountability whatsoever. If any of them are genuinely criminal, can they be impeached by the House and tried in the Senate?

Exactly who is keeping tabs on these ‘watchdogs’?

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:21 PM

Animation about cell phone data mining
**************************************

David Pescovitz at 2:05 pm Tue, Jun 11, 2013
Michael Rigley created this beautiful animation, titled “Network,” for his BFA design thesis project at the California College of Art. It’s about personal data captured by cell phone providers and is quite relevant this week.
===========================

http://boingboing.net/2013/06/11/animation-about-cell-phone-dat.html

canopfor on July 29, 2013 at 12:22 PM

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:15 PM

Me too, it’s just that the whole subsidy thing from SS to medicare/aid has been so poorly managed from day one, and it’s main purpose, that sight has been lost, I would abolish it, but put somthing in place and not let the govt run it, ever.

One can never be rid of the poor for what ever reason, and I can’t not see giving assistance when needed for a period as a hand up not a hand out… :)

Some serious thought has to be given all aspects I think…

But totally get the govt out of running it.

The christian view is to be charitable and the govt has done it’s best to stymie that…

Was once people took care of each other, but that isn’t reality any longer…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:24 PM


If any of them are genuinely criminal, can they be impeached by the House and tried in the Senate?

Exactly who is keeping tabs on these ‘watchdogs’?

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:21 PM

They should be impeached, but since there is little difference between parties as they stand right now, that isn’t gonna happen.

I hate the thought that the govt could and may take over private investments, ie 401ks etc…

There is no one watching the so called watchdogs… they are in my mind, one and the same, all looking for ways to take more from us, until we are bled dry…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:27 PM

Fail. Again, I do not support subsidisation. If people want to be dependent on drugs and starve, fine with me.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:13 PM

If you support legalization today, then you do support subsidization. I am with you on the let them starve. The issue though is that they currently have a legal claim on other people’s wealth for no other reason than they choose to take it.
You seem to have an extremely narrow view. You keep completely ignoring the entirety of the argument I make and attempt to make it a single point issue. But it a combined issue.
As long as society does not let them starve, but instead appropriates more of my wealth to care for them, then making it easier on them, makes more of them, causing my freedom to be eroded. Since I am more of the mind to let them starve, I am also much more in the desire to make them suffer if they will be living off my wealth. Jail is a good place for them as long as they will be living off my dime!

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 12:29 PM

canopfor on July 29, 2013 at 12:19 PM

Video won’t play for me canopfor :(

Bet it was worthy of a watch tho! ;)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:32 PM

At some point, you’ve collected enough domestic intelligence.

freedomfirst on July 29, 2013 at 12:34 PM

There is no one watching the so called watchdogs… they are in my mind, one and the same, all looking for ways to take more from us, until we are bled dry…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:27 PM

Agreed. Which is why I have to laugh when someone says this snooping is no big deal long as there is ‘proper’ oversight’. Well, that’s a total fallacy and anyone with half a brain knows it. It’s that same classic question from ancient Rome: Who guards the guards?

Caligula found out the hard way the answer to that question.

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 12:29 PM

In case you haven’t noticed, the War on Drugs has been a failure.

As long as you hurt neither me nor any other innocent person, I don’t care what you do. If you want to have gay sex or commit adultery, I don’t care. If you want to smoke pot, I don’t care. None of this makes me a ‘Utopian.’

Yes, I have a narrow view. It’s based on the Constitution. If you want to ban drugs, then don’t use the Commerce Clause. Pass a Constitutional amendment…like the US did when it banned alcohol, which worked out so well, btw. /

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

OT?

Will probably stay home if Christie is tne nominee.

freedomfirst on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Scrumpy, agreed.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Will probably stay home if Christie is tne nominee.

freedomfirst on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Me

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:37 PM

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 12:29 PM

If I may butt in!

I like the clarity of your point now that you said that.

I am inclined to agree, the more they take from us, the more they make of them, it is a vicious cycle, it is the ‘communistic’ way.

But I still think that not everyone has the ability to be self sufficient, and I do believe in a ‘safety net’ for such persons, until perhaps they can be educated to make somthing of themselves, but they have to want to…

Once the incentive has been taken away, oh there will be ‘pain’ for sure… but it will fade when one is forced to do for oneself…

I don’t know that society in general, is willing to forgo all the ‘goodies’ the govt provides at tax payer expense.

I can see in my mind where money could be put to better use, but who am I? I am one voice…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:39 PM

Spied Enough Already?

faraway on July 29, 2013 at 11:36 AM

The SEA Party. I like it.

SailorMark on July 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Caligula found out the hard way the answer to that question.

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Oh yes he did!

Probably my age has somthing to do with it and being well read, but History ALWAYS repeats if people do not learn from it!

Our govt is a perfect example…

It and it’s attempts are doomed to fail, and people like bluegill and others just do not see the handwriting on the wall…

I am a plain and simple woman of words, and I just say it as I see it!

“There is nothing new under heaven.” I believe that, it’s been done and written all before, and we had better learn from it…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:44 PM

Scrumpy, agreed.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Great minds think alike with minor adjustments!! I agree with you also :)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:45 PM

But I like surfing the internet with my hundreds of faceless Washington bureaucrat friends!

I like knowing that my e-mail is read by possibly thousands of people with security clearances.

I like knowing that my smart phone is for both my convenience in communicating and the state’s convenience in monitoring my every word and deed.

I like playing dress up and pretending I am Winston Smith living in Oceania — only I am not upset with it and instead embrace it.

I am a Bluegill-American. :-)

Punchenko on July 29, 2013 at 12:45 PM

I was against TSA and the making of the Department of Homeland Security. Was when Bush was in office, am with Obama in office and will be no matter who is in office. I am against the NSA spying on American Citizens, it needs to concentrate on on its duties, foreign intelligence.

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 11:30 AM

++

I would bet most of the swing came in the last few months or so after it was revealed the NSA is unnecessarily collecting data on Americans with no cause. At least the TEA party reads the constitution.

TerryW on July 29, 2013 at 12:50 PM

Punchenko on July 29, 2013 at 12:45 PM

I’d love if some NSA snooper is listening in on a phone call, to realize his wife is making plans with the person he’s monitoring to cheat on him.

Liam on July 29, 2013 at 12:50 PM

The SEA Party. I like it.

SailorMark on July 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM

You’re just a typical Sea Bagger. :-)

Flange on July 29, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Just putting this out there :)…

From my perspective, not being a born and raised American, I find that Americans for the most have forgotten what it means to BE an American!!

They have lost sight, and have taken on the ‘gimme gimme’ mentality, they believe that everyone else OWES them somthing, and I am not saying that to be racist or anything, I include all races in this.

A change HAS to happen in order to come back to american roots and ideals and freedom and liberty.

I am seriously saddened by what I see happening here, and I would give MY life to help preserve what made America AMERICA!!

There is a pervasive undercurrent running through the country now that no one is responsible for themselves, it has become ‘fashionable’ to blame soneone else for ones failings.

When I came here, the only asperation I had was to live FREE!! Not be a leech, and live my life simply and quietly, I did not come here seeking riches or fame, I just wanted what I knew America had to offer me… and it is being eroded…

I could cry…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:56 PM

Will probably stay home if Christie is tne nominee.

freedomfirst on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

I was looking at that WaPo article in Headlines earlier. And that is how I felt about at least 5 of Cizilla’s top ten. 2 others warranted a “meh” from me, and the other 3 I decided I need to investigate further.

Chris of Rights on July 29, 2013 at 12:57 PM

soneone = someone gahhhhhhhhh!! ;)

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:57 PM

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

That is why you are a “libertarian”. Because, like liberals and progressives, you are incapable of connecting dots, even when they have numbers and letters put next to them to indicate the order in which to connect them. Instead you look at things, just like you did my whole argument in my posts, as if they are all unconnected and have no bearing on anything else at all.

I tend to figure that having people vote my wealth out of my pocket in order to subsidize their own or their friends degenerate behaviors is an injury to myself. Maybe you enjoy this. But since the money is coming out my pocket, I am much more happy to have them enjoying the money behind bars rather than behind a TV sitting on a sofa or behind the wheel enjoying a narcotic induced reckless driving stint.

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 1:02 PM

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 1:02 PM

I CAN connect the dots, which is why I oppose any and all subsidisation, welfare programmes, and healthcare programmes like Medicare and Medicaid.

I am much more happy to have them enjoying the money behind bars rather than behind a TV sitting on a sofa or behind the wheel enjoying a narcotic induced reckless driving stint.

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 1:02 PM

Where did I say that I would support narcotic-induced reckless driving? I didn’t. Drunk driving laws don’t prevent drunk driving. THEY PUNISH IT. The same would be true of narcotics.

BTW, according to the CDC, ’112 million times a year alcohol-impaired drivers put you at risk.’

In 2010, 10,228 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes. To put that into perspective, there were 11,078 gun-related homicides that year.

First look at repealing the Twenty-First Amendment? /

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM

So, what you are saying is that narcotic induced reckless driving harms you? I just do not get you… how does it harm you? Why do you not support their freedom?

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 1:16 PM

So, what you are saying is that narcotic induced reckless driving harms you? I just do not get you… how does it harm you? Why do you not support their freedom?

astonerii on July 29, 2013 at 1:16 PM

You must have missed where I wrote:

As long as you hurt neither me nor any other innocent person, I don’t care what you do.

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Get me, now?

Resist We Much on July 29, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Great article on what it’s all about.

Schadenfreude on July 29, 2013 at 1:22 PM

From my perspective, not being a born and raised American, I find that Americans for the most have forgotten what it means to BE an American!!

I could cry…

Scrumpy on July 29, 2013 at 12:56 PM

Me, too.

The culture has been decimated. I believe many immigrants don’t bother assimilating. Additionally, civility is gone.

Case in point. The TM case. In days gone by, there would not have been any gnashing of teeth. A civil TM would have asked GZ why he was being followed. Upon explanation, TM would have apologized, excused himself, and gone on his way. His reaction to ambush GZ was extreme. People don’t communicate any more. They primp, preen and defend their respect (that they assume they are entitled to). Geez!

freedomfirst on July 29, 2013 at 1:23 PM

Why such a shift against surveillance since 2010?

because Snowden showed people that the surveillance goes against everything a normal; American holds dear including the 4th amendment.

unseen on July 29, 2013 at 1:31 PM

Comment pages: 1 2