Open thread: House to vote on whether to defund the NSA; Update: Amash video added; Update: Amendment fails, 205/217

posted at 4:41 pm on July 24, 2013 by Allahpundit

Ed blogged it this morning but it’s worthy of an open thread too, not just because the future of the surveillance state is a momentous issue but because this is a rare House vote where I have zero clue how it’s going to go. I think it’s headed for a handy defeat because hawkish Republicans won’t want to take away a counterterror tool and loyal Democrats won’t want to embarrass Obama, but I don’t know how handy. I don’t even know which side will provide more votes in favor. It’s an unusually opaque floor vote and a temperature check on where the Republican caucus stands these days on civil liberties versus national security. Is the Amash/Rand Paul contingent stronger than thought, or is the GOP still basically Bush’s party? Matt Welch is quite right: If Obama’s half as serious as he pretends to be in calling for a “national conversation” about surveillance or whatever, this is a fine place to start.

There is reason to think the libertarians will do better than thought. The White House, as Ed noted, is sufficiently worried about this to have sent NSA chief Gen. Keith Alexander to lobby Congress last night. C-SPAN says floor debate is set for 5:15 ET and I’m hearing on Twitter that the final votes of the day are scheduled for 5:45-6 p.m. This is worth watching. Stand by for updates.

Update: Justin Amash, who sponsored the amendment, was on Fox News within the past hour arguing that NSA surveillance is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. I can’t find the video online yet but I’ll post it here once it’s up.

In the meantime, a question: Should the GOP line up behind this, if only for tactical reasons? The bill’s going nowhere in the Senate so there’s no risk of the NSA actually losing funding. Republicans could woo disaffected libertarians with a symbolic vote here and put Harry Reid and Obama on the spot as defenders of massive data-mining against civil liberties. Don’t forget that they’ll have some bipartisan cover too; surely a few Democrats in the House care enough about this issue, a la Ron Wyden in the Senate, that they’ll vote with Amash. The potential pitfall for Republicans in doing that is that, as noted this morning, most of the public doesn’t object to NSA surveillance. Most/many of those people are probably lukewarm, though, and won’t care about a vote for a bill that has no chance of becoming law. It’s the NSA critics who are passionate, and those critics will appreciate the gesture. I’ll bet there are more Republican votes than expected for Amash’s bill, precisely for this reason.

Update: Since we’re on the subject of the NSA, and since I already posted something about the public’s views of Snowden this morning, yikes:

Update: Good news for libertarians from the same poll:

More than a month after leaker Edward Snowden revealed information about the National Security Agency’s surveillance and data-gathering programs, 55 percent of Americans say they’re more worried the United States will go too far in violating privacy rights, according to the NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll.

That’s a significant shift from the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, when an equal number in the Dec. 2001 NBC/WSJ poll — 55 percent — worried more that the United States wouldn’t go far enough in monitoring potential terrorists who live in the U.S.

The last time the poll asked this question, in July 2006, Americans were split, with 45 percent worried that this surveillance would violate privacy rights and with 43 percent worried it wouldn’t go far enough to pursue potential terrorists.

How quickly will the numbers revert if/when there’s a new attack?

Update: As promised, here’s Amash:


Update: The amendment failed — narrowly. 205/217, with Nancy Pelosi voting no to protect O. I can’t wait to see what the partisan breakdown was. Stand by for the roll.

Update: The partisan breakdown:

Rarely do you see votes like that in the House these days. Philip Klein’s right, though: Those numbers wouldn’t be quite as bipartisan if a Republican was in the White House.


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If only…security over freedom gives you neither!

Schadenfreude on July 24, 2013 at 4:46 PM

If it happens, I’ll be shocked…

d1carter on July 24, 2013 at 4:47 PM

If Obama’s half as serious as he pretends to be in calling for a “national conversation” about surveillance or whatever, this is a fine place to start.

That gives him 50% too much credit.

Schadenfreude on July 24, 2013 at 4:48 PM

Since most of the authorization for the NSA came before many of these members were voted in they ought to kill and start over.

DanMan on July 24, 2013 at 4:48 PM

Hey, we considered a bill (not really) to get rid of the NSA.

What else do you people want?

Dack Thrombosis on July 24, 2013 at 4:49 PM

Here’s a chance for Republicans who claimed to be for small govt to show if they mean it or not.

antifederalist on July 24, 2013 at 4:54 PM

It doesn’t have a prayer of passing but anything that gives the Obama administration a black eye is something I can be happy about.

alchemist19 on July 24, 2013 at 4:54 PM

They don’t have the guts to do it and the NSA knows it. It’s all for show for conservative suckers.

Blake on July 24, 2013 at 4:55 PM

It would be interesting to watch them defund something

trigon on July 24, 2013 at 4:56 PM

Actually, it would be more fun to watch them defund everything until they get some answers from this administration. IRS? Benghazi? F&F? Maybe half a hundred other things?

trigon on July 24, 2013 at 5:00 PM

Get real. They’re not defunding anything.

rrpjr on July 24, 2013 at 5:01 PM

In the meantime, a question: Should the GOP line up behind this, if only for tactical reasons? The bill’s going nowhere in the Senate so there’s no risk of the NSA actually losing funding. Republicans could woo disaffected libertarians with a symbolic vote here and put Harry Reid and Obama on the spot as defenders of massive data-mining against civil liberties.

No. Catering to libertarians’ insanity only breeds more insanity, and doing it solely for the sake of show will only elicit contempt from libertarians for the GOP’s grandstanding, while simultaneously generating outrage from neoconservatives for the GOP’s betrayal.

Stoic Patriot on July 24, 2013 at 5:02 PM

The White House, as Ed noted, is sufficiently worried about this to have sent NSA chief Gen. Keith Alexander to lobby blackmail Congress last night.

NSA don’t do no lobbying :O

burrata on July 24, 2013 at 5:03 PM

Would most East Germans have defunded their early version of the N-Stasi-A ?

VorDaj on July 24, 2013 at 5:06 PM

If suppose, by a miracle chance, this time NSA really gets defunded, what will Snoop Dawg do to punish us ?
Get his brothers to unleash a jihad attack on Americans ?
or
Get Snowden killed ?

burrata on July 24, 2013 at 5:10 PM

If it happens, I’ll be shocked…

d1carter on July 24, 2013 at 4:47 PM

And I’ll be thrilled.

John the Libertarian on July 24, 2013 at 5:16 PM

My impression is that they’re not defunding the NSA, but merely their warrantless data gathering program. But perhaps I misunderstood?

Chris of Rights on July 24, 2013 at 5:19 PM

Based on the KNOWN activities of the Obama Administration, defunding the NSA would be an act of self-preservation by the GOP. And thus, you can count on them to blow it.

Afterseven on July 24, 2013 at 5:19 PM

If only…security over freedom gives you neither!

Schadenfreude on July 24, 2013 at 4:46 PM

And if you value freedom so much that you are willing to forego security, you will also soon have neither.

Whoever is pushing this vote does not deserve public office.

unclesmrgol on July 24, 2013 at 5:26 PM

Doubt this will pass but if it does, put the Education dept up next, then the EPA and work through every department making them justify their very existence.

hopeful on July 24, 2013 at 5:33 PM

No vid.

Bmore on July 24, 2013 at 5:33 PM

Correction, vid.

Bmore on July 24, 2013 at 5:34 PM

OT- but jeeeezus…

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/313259-senates-tax-writers-offering-50-years-of-secrecy

wolly4321 on July 24, 2013 at 5:29 PM

#headdesk

Chris of Rights on July 24, 2013 at 5:34 PM

Justin Amash, who sponsored the amendment

I didn’t know the Amish were in government.

chewmeister on July 24, 2013 at 5:34 PM

Whoever is pushing this vote does not deserve public office.

unclesmrgol on July 24, 2013 at 5:26 PM

Right. Because we really super-duper need to spend billions on vast data mining of every Internet and cell phone conversation and house them in a gi-normous data storage facility because of the remote possibility they may someday prevent a Boston bombing… that occurred anyway.

Useless bureaucratic waste of money and intrusion on privacy.

John the Libertarian on July 24, 2013 at 5:34 PM

I’m sure the Congress that wouldn’t defund Sesame Street is going to defund the NSA, lol.

xblade on July 24, 2013 at 5:37 PM

Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and the panel’s top Republican, Sen. Orrin Hatch (Utah), have assured lawmakers that any submission they receive will not be released by either the committee or the National Archives before the end of 2064.

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/313259-senates-tax-writers-offering-50-years-of-secrecy#ixzz2a08yozmw
Follow us: @thehill on Twitter | TheHill on Facebook

Why?
What could the reason possibly be? It’s not their money, yet 50 yrs of hiding the terms? Why?

They all need to be made to answer. Why would an honest person not want to be questioned?

Mimzey on July 24, 2013 at 5:39 PM

How quickly will the numbers revert if/when there’s a new attack?

Another attack will just demonstrate how utterly useless the NSA program is.

Terror attacks are thwarted by old-fashioned police work and tips and snitches, not “penumbras in the metadata.”

John the Libertarian on July 24, 2013 at 5:40 PM

Just remember, Snowden accomplished nothing. Nothing at all. Being out of the reach of the communists gives him the ability to keep this story front page and at the front of people’s minds. If he were in prison, then the media would shut down the debate and move on to less important things.

astonerii on July 24, 2013 at 5:42 PM

Right. Because we really super-duper need to spend billions on vast data mining of every Internet and cell phone conversation and house them in a gi-normous data storage facility because of the remote possibility they may someday prevent a Boston bombing… that occurred anyway.

Useless bureaucratic waste of money and intrusion on privacy.

John the Libertarian on July 24, 2013 at 5:34 PM

I doubt it’s used for “anti-terrorism” at all.

Doomberg on July 24, 2013 at 5:54 PM

Go Amash!

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 5:55 PM

I haven’t seen this anywhere but does anyone know what the rationale is for collecting everybody’s info rather than getting warrants to tap people who are of concern? Apart from the privacy concerns, government is inefficent to begin with. It would seem that having to sift though gigantic amounts of “intel” would make it even more so.

hopeful on July 24, 2013 at 5:58 PM

House to vote on whether to defund the NSA

They haven’t defunded or slowed anything down in 60 years and they’re not gonna start now……Guaranteed!!!!

RADIOONE on July 24, 2013 at 5:59 PM

I doubt it’s used for “anti-terrorism” at all.

Doomberg on July 24, 2013 at 5:54 PM

It’s being used to protect the corrupt ruling elite and their multi-national cronies from the wrath of the American people when their Keynesian ponzy scheme comes crashing down.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:05 PM

How about stopping the flow of illegal immigrants? Sealing off our borders? Doesn’t that matter in a nuclear age? Doesn’t that matter when it comes to terrorism or is spying on every legal American the only way to combat terrorism?

We’ve been in the nuclear age for nearly 70 years now. They act like it just spawned a few years ago.

But there has always been a threat. Every generation had its variation of new threats that could be used to justify tyranny. If it wasn’t nukes it was the long range bomber or aircraft carriers or the radio! Heck.. even the telegraph and dynamite meant it was a “new day with new threats to be faced!” Imagine a spy who could actually communicate with his leaders from hundreds of miles away. He could pass secrets or get orders to commit sabotage. It was a new day. So this “It’s a new day” crap has been around since the beginning of time.

JellyToast on July 24, 2013 at 6:07 PM

Conyers is xupporting Amash’s amendment?? I almost fainted!!

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:07 PM

oops that s/b an s. I’m cooking too, LOL

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:07 PM

I doubt it’s used for “anti-terrorism” at all.

Doomberg on July 24, 2013 at 5:54 PM

It’s being used to cripple grass roots tea party organizations to prevent another landslide victory in ’12 like we had in ’10, to protect the corrupt ruling class.

It was probably used to compel Chief “Justice” Roberts to vote in favor of Obamacare at the last minute, even though he was against it.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:10 PM

I must be missing something. Bachmann is against this Amendment#100 that Amash has put up.

Sensenbrenner is for it.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:10 PM

Thank you C-Span!

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:16 PM

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:10 PM

That’s too bad, I mistakenly thought that Bachmann, although hawkish, was still a defender of freedom and liberty.

I think that people who vote against Amash’s bill should be primaried. I guess now I’m glad that Bachmann, who I supported in ’12, is leaving.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:19 PM

What the H just happened? They took a voice vote on Amash’s Amendment and the chair said the no’s had it. Amash asked for a recorded vote and the chair continued on to other Amendments. Conyers tried to get the Chair’s attention, but she ignored him.

Are they not going to get a recorded vote on Amash’s Amendment?

Trying to keep up, almost burnt food I had on the stove, LOL

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:25 PM

Are they not going to get a recorded vote on Amash’s Amendment?

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:25 PM

I’m not certain either way.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:28 PM

We require a role call vote so we know who to throw out of office!

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:30 PM

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:10 PM

That’s too bad, I mistakenly thought that Bachmann, although hawkish, was still a defender of freedom and liberty.

I think that people who vote against Amash’s bill should be primaried. I guess now I’m glad that Bachmann, who I supported in ’12, is leaving.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:19 PM

I am totally perplexed. Conyers and Nadler is supporting it and Bachmann is against it?

I trust Amash and Sensenbrenner (wrote the Patriot Act).

Someone just tweeted from Canada that they think the Amash Amendment is going to pass with 40+/- Dem votes.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:32 PM

role = roll

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:33 PM

We require a role call vote so we know who to throw out of office!

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:30 PM

I agree!! Maybe the Chair is taking the Amendments in # order.

I hope so. I didn’t think the no’s had it anyway.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:35 PM

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:35 PM

That’s what I’m hoping, that they’re doing it in order and there will still be a recorded vote for Amash’s bill.

And then we need to primary as many snoops as possible.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:41 PM

It sounds like progressive Republicans that vote against Amash’s amendment will be doing Obama’s bidding, based on the WH statement that was just read on C-Span.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:43 PM

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:43 PM

That was my exact thot when I heard that and the WSJ article. What in the world is wrong with these R’s. Well, I hope the Amash Amendment passes. It’s only a 2 minute vote.

A lot of support for Amash from the C-Span callers.

Love the callers since they get it!! Let’s replace these R W.H. supporters with them, LOL

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:47 PM

I can’t believe those vote totals. Well, Thomas won’t have the roll call vote up for about an hour.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:52 PM

So far the vote is 92 R and 109 D in favor of Amash’s amendment. Whatever the final number is, I wish there was some way to take all the people that voted with Amash, work out our differences, (or put them on hold), and start a new Freedom Party to take back American from the crony fascists in both parties that have taken over control after 9/11.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:54 PM

I noticed 7 NV from the R’s and the same for the D’s.

Well, the entire House is up for re-election in ’14. You can believe my State Reps will answer if any voted no.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 6:55 PM

JellyToast on July 24, 2013 at 6:07 PM

I blame that Damn Yankee rifle that you could load on Sunday, and shoot all week!

Another Drew on July 24, 2013 at 6:59 PM

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 6:54 PM

It is appalling what is going on in the Country. The sad thing is that this has been going on for a long time.

Not sure what the answer is. It seems whether you vote D or R, makes no difference as they are the same and are one group. All they do is against us.

Oops, got a phone call.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 7:13 PM

so there are 134 gop members and 83 dem members that don’t give a crap about freedom. Houston we have a problem.

unseen on July 24, 2013 at 7:30 PM

From an article entitled The Agency That Could Be Big Brother by James Bamford in The New York Times, Christmas Day, 2005:

Jokingly referred to as “No Such Agency,” the N.S.A. was created in absolute secrecy in 1952 by President Harry S. Truman. Today, it is the largest intelligence agency. It is also the most important, providing far more insight on foreign countries than the C.I.A. and other spy organizations.

But the agency is still struggling to adjust to the war on terror, in which its job is not to monitor states, but individuals or small cells hidden all over the world. To accomplish this, the N.S.A. has developed ever more sophisticated technology that mines vast amounts of data. But this technology may be of limited use abroad. And at home, it increases pressure on the agency to bypass civil liberties and skirt formal legal channels of criminal investigation. Originally created to spy on foreign adversaries, the N.S.A. was never supposed to be turned inward. Thirty years ago, Senator Frank Church, the Idaho Democrat who was then chairman of the select committee on intelligence, investigated the agency and came away stunned.

‘That [surveillance] capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such [is] the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology …

I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency [NSA] and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.’

– Senator Frank Church (D-Idaho), 1975, quoted in James Bamford’s The Puzzle Palace

Senator Frank Church was a prophet, indeed.

Resist We Much on July 24, 2013 at 7:31 PM

so there are 134 gop members and 83 dem members that don’t give a crap about freedom. Houston we have a problem.

unseen on July 24, 2013 at 7:30 PM

Pitiful. Did you see that Bachmann was against it and Conyers and Nadler were for it? At least verbally, don’t know if Thomas has the roll call up yet. Will check.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 7:40 PM

Senator Frank Church was a prophet, indeed.

Resist We Much on July 24, 2013 at 7:31 PM

He old school, yo. We in a new school.

SouthernGent on July 24, 2013 at 7:47 PM

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll412.xml

Roll Call Vote on Amash Amendment

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 7:51 PM

Thanks for the link, Bluefox. I hope that people will work to primary as many of the no votes as possible before it’s too late, assuming it’s not already.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 7:57 PM

The democrats’ YEA votes are just as political the any GOP NAY vote. I hate 98% of those people up there.

SouthernGent on July 24, 2013 at 7:57 PM

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 7:51 PM

Neugebauer is sooo going to get a primary challenge next year!

annoyinglittletwerp on July 24, 2013 at 7:58 PM

unseen on July 24, 2013 at 7:30 PM

My husband doesn’t think that the NSA should be scrapped either. He says that it’s integral to our national security. He is against ‘warrantless’ phone tapping.

annoyinglittletwerp on July 24, 2013 at 8:00 PM

I book marked the roll call under War on Freedom/4th amendment for quick reference in ’14 an ’16.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 8:02 PM

Only thing wrong with Amash is that he just loves the Allahu Akbar folks, his folks.

Kermit on July 24, 2013 at 8:17 PM

Updated Tweet= bipartisanship!!! Tell the WH.

socalcon on July 24, 2013 at 8:28 PM

Only thing wrong with Amash is that he just loves the Allahu Akbar folks, his folks.

Kermit on July 24, 2013 at 8:17 PM

You are full of sh** troll

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 8:32 PM

If the Congress was serious about National Security, they would re-do the NSA’s charter to ensure that its efforts were directed against enemies of the country, and not used against American citizens who have no nexus with terrorism, or espionage.
But, such a degree of seriousness would entail actually learning about the problem, and devising corrective measures.
That would take valuable time away from doing stand-ups in Statuary Hall, appearances on MTP/FTN/TW/Fox, and fundraising.
Completely Unacceptable!

Another Drew on July 24, 2013 at 8:33 PM

US government secretly accessing phone records

@mviser tweeted:
mviser

Niki Tsongas, on vote to defund NSA program: “We can’t sacrifice values that have made America the beacon of hope for the rest of the world”

7 mins ago from twitter.com by editor
=========================================

canopfor on July 24, 2013 at 8:35 PM

Only thing wrong with Amash is that he just loves the Allahu Akbar folks, his folks.

Kermit on July 24, 2013 at 8:17 PM

Huh?

Born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and raised in Kentwood, Michigan, Amash is a second generation Arab-American of Palestinian Christian and Syrian Greek Orthodox descent.[5] His father is a Palestinian business owner, whose family immigrated to the United States in 1956 through the sponsorship of a Christian pastor and his family… He belongs to an Eastern Orthodox Church, not a Greek Orthodox Church Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.[8]

wiki

You are a liar and a horrible person.

rndmusrnm on July 24, 2013 at 8:35 PM

Thanks for the link, Bluefox. I hope that people will work to primary as many of the no votes as possible before it’s too late, assuming it’s not already.

FloatingRock on July 24, 2013 at 7:57 PM

You’re welcome. I’m outraged. Nice way to bookmark it & it’s true.
I always print the Roll Call Votes out, easier to make calls from:-)I have the entire Senate & House members printed out with phone & fax #’s.

Out of 16 U.S. House members in my State only 5 voted yes & 1 was a NV. Oh, yeah they will all hear from me tomorrow. Since those R’s that voted No on this Amendment are no different than the D’s, then what do we need those R’s for? Vote them out!

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM

How could any self respecting American vote in support of spying on American citizens?!?!?

KMC1 on July 24, 2013 at 8:41 PM

Kermit on July 24, 2013 at 8:17 PM

You are full of sh** troll

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 8:32 PM

I forgot to tell you that you’re ignorant on top of that.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 8:41 PM

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 7:51 PM

Neugebauer is sooo going to get a primary challenge next year!

annoyinglittletwerp on July 24, 2013 at 7:58 PM

Was he the only Rep that voted no? I call all of mine and if they say I’m not in their District, I just tell them your vote affects me, so I have a right to protest, LOL Same thing with the Senate, I call everyone of them, all 100.

What do we need the R’s for when they vote the same as the D’s?

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 8:56 PM

Another Drew on July 24, 2013 at 8:33 PM

Well, that makes sense what you say. But you’ve seen that the House couldn’t even vote to pass the Amash AMENDMENT!! I think the Congress is beyond hope; they just need voted out of office.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 8:59 PM

How could any self respecting American vote in support of spying on American citizens?!?!?

KMC1 on July 24, 2013 at 8:41 PM

I don’t know. But that’s one of the questions I’ll be asking my U.S. House members tomorrow. I want to know why they voted against the Amash Amendment. And if I don’t get an intelligent answer, then they will be told that in that case, I’ll be voting against you and for the Democrat since there is no difference.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 9:05 PM

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 8:56 PM

Quite a few voted no.

annoyinglittletwerp on July 24, 2013 at 9:38 PM

I wonder who got paid off and how much they sold for.

WisCon on July 24, 2013 at 9:40 PM

Somebody got blackmailed

kurtzz3 on July 24, 2013 at 9:44 PM

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 8:56 PM

Quite a few voted no.

annoyinglittletwerp on July 24, 2013 at 9:38 PM

So did my State.11 out of 16 voted no. I’m trying to find the actual wording for that Amash Amendment. There were a lot of Amendments but this one was to protect our phone calls and emails etc.

Nice to see you posting again. That “issue” was uncalled for imo.
Has anyone ever been banned on Ace? ROFL

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 9:51 PM

Pitiful. Did you see that Bachmann was against it and Conyers and Nadler were for it? At least verbally, don’t know if Thomas has the roll call up yet. Will check.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 7:40 PM

to the DC elite it is ALL about politics anymore. The concept of freedom and liberty no longer exists in the halls of congress.

unseen on July 24, 2013 at 10:16 PM

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 7:40 PM

to the DC elite it is ALL about politics anymore. The concept of freedom and liberty no longer exists in the halls of congress.

unseen on July 24, 2013 at 10:16 PM

For the most part it doesn’t and you are right. We have very very few that fight against great odds for our Country.

Even so, we press on.

bluefox on July 24, 2013 at 11:50 PM

Whoever voted NO is a TRAIOTOR.

TX-96 on July 25, 2013 at 7:19 AM

…err TRAITOR

TX-96 on July 25, 2013 at 7:19 AM

Guaranteed that the Republicans that voted AGAINST this amendment did so in exchange for a LETTER from the NSA saying that they promise that they aren’t collecting any of the type of data that is being alleged and that they’re following the letter of the law. Don’t laugh. They fall for the same “Letter” scheme time after time.

Mahdi on July 25, 2013 at 7:16 PM