Fact-check: “Stand your ground” laws don’t increase murder, manslaughter rate

posted at 10:01 am on July 18, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Give McClatchy some kudos for a balanced and evidence-based look at a subject receiving considerable demagoguery these days.  Despite the fact that Florida’s “stand your ground” had little application to the trial of George Zimmerman — he was pinned to the ground and unable to retreat when he felt afraid for his life according to the defense and not threatened at all according to the prosecution — politicians have attacked the self-defense law as a carte blanche for Wild West-type gun violence.  However, two dozen states have had SYG laws on the books for several years, and few of them had any increase in murders and manslaughters afterward:

Starting with Florida in 2005, at least 24 states have adopted some variation of a stand-your-ground law, Buchanan said. Additional states have adopted similar policies through state court rulings. Their general thrust is to remove the long-standing legal “duty to retreat” in the face of danger while in a public place. Instead, individuals may defend themselves, with lethal force if necessary, so long as they are in the public place legally. …

Last year, two Georgia State University economics researchers concluded that the laws are “associated with a significant increase in the number of homicides among whites, especially white males.” In a 55-page paper published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, authors Chandler B. McClellan and Erdal Tekin estimated that “between 28 and 33 additional white males are killed each month” as a result of these laws.

“These laws are also associated with a significant increase in emergency room visits and hospital discharges related to firearm-inflicted injuries,” the Georgia State economists said.

Increased firearm ownership in states with stand-your-ground laws and the presence of bystanders-turned-victims in public places might account for the increased dangers, they suggested.

Texas A&M researchers Mark Hoekstra and Cheng Cheng reached similar conclusions last year in a 43-page study that found a “statistically significant 8 percent net increase in the number of reported murders and non-negligent manslaughters” in states with the enhanced self-defense laws.

But …

While Florida saw an uptick in murders and nonnegligent manslaughters after it passed its “stand your ground” law in 2005, the trend has not been common across other states which have passed similar laws.

Florida experienced a spike in murders and manslaughters after passing the law, but the curve has almost returned to the status quo ante.  The same is true in New Mexico, Louisiana (slightly) and in Delaware, the rate has continued its slight increase.  In Texas, the rate has declined after SYG passage, and the other states have either shown slight declines or no change at all. While one could possibly argue that these rates would have declined more without SYG in place, it’s impossible to argue that SYG has created an environment of escalating homicides.

Here’s a chart from McClatchy’s interactive tool showing all of the SYG states and their rates of homicide:

syg-chart1

Now here’s another with DC’s murder/manslaughter rate in comparison.  That’s our nation’s capital — which has some of the strictest gun control regulations in the US — sitting on top:

syg-chart2Maybe policymakers in Washington should focus more on dealing with the high rate of murders and manslaughters in the nation’s capital, than on SYG laws in states that seem to have a better handle on the situation.


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Comment pages: 1 2

Clearly, you’re not looking at the deaths of black Skittles eating 17-year olds.

Don’t you know by now that the law is racist, Ed?

Chris of Rights on July 18, 2013 at 10:08 AM

I’m wondering now if a Stand Your Ground Law is enough. It might be better to enshrine this as a State Constitutional Amendment. It is after all a Bill of Rights issue.

meci on July 18, 2013 at 10:09 AM

Well, plus, the argument I’ve been hearing from many of Trayvon’s supporters who said he had a right to defend himself was that HE (Trayvon) was standing his ground when he punched Zimmerman.

sydneyjane on July 18, 2013 at 10:10 AM

Facts only confuse and anger ideologues….

Athos on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Dear Akzed: http://www.policymic.com/articles/54671/the-one-graph-that-proves-stand-your-ground-laws-help-jurors-let-white-defendants-go-free

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts.

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Eric Holder, US AG, stood up to a crowd of US Citizens and said you do not have the right to self defense, and received thunderous applause.

Are we getting close to testing that theory?

Let. It. Burn.

Neo on July 18, 2013 at 10:12 AM

As far as I’m concerned my right to stand my ground was granted to me the moment this nation came into existence, bought and paid for by the men who defeated the mightiest army on Earth.

Free men don’t need government permission to defend whatever patch of ground they happen to be standing on when faced with a threat, I’ll only retreat if I choose to retreat, not because some gubment jackwad tells me I have to.

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:15 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts.

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Yup, most likely due the incidents being justifiable.

sentinelrules on July 18, 2013 at 10:16 AM

Of course they don’t, and a little tidbit for those who insist stand your ground laws somehow are unfair to blacks.

31 states are stand-your-ground states. Good luck getting that changed gun-grabbers. You wackadoodles couldn’t even get legislation out of the Senate for gun-grabbing. And Old No-Eyes (Stevie Wonder) won’t ever be visiting Motown again because Michigan is a stand your ground state. I love it!

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:17 AM

This is just another run at gun control. Remember, the Left, unlike the GOP, never surrender. They never admit defeat. They just retreat, regroup, and try again.

If only the GOP had their tenacity.

Charlemagne on July 18, 2013 at 10:18 AM

One half of one step back.

Bmore on July 18, 2013 at 10:18 AM

Like how the Left pigeonholes Conservatives into different types (social conservatives, fiscal conservatives), they’re trying to differentiate types of self-defense. If they can get the SYG ‘form’ called into question and somehow revoked, then other ‘types’ can also be questioned until they, too, are disallowed and otherwise limited. That thinking, and the tried-and-true method of incrementalism, is exactly where Holder was aiming when he said a victim has a ‘duty to retreat’.

Don’t fall for it, don’t play their game! Self-defense is an inalienable right whether you’re on the street or in your home. The only thing to be questioned is the level of force needed to repel the attack when it happens.

Liam on July 18, 2013 at 10:19 AM

Dear Akzed: http://www.policymic.com/articles/54671/the-one-graph-that-proves-stand-your-ground-laws-help-jurors-let-white-defendants-go-free

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts.

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

From the article you linked:

Notice, however, that white people who kill black people are far more likely to be found not guilty even in states without Stand Your Ground, and black people who kill whites are less likely to be found not-guilty regardless of state law.

Now square the circle.

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:19 AM

Dear Akzed: http://www.policymic.com/articles/54671/the-one-graph-that-proves-stand-your-ground-laws-help-jurors-let-white-defendants-go-free

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts.

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

That is the dumbest graph I have ever seen.

VegasRick on July 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:15 AM

It existed the moment God breathed life into us.

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM

It existed the moment God breathed life into us.

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Noted, and I would amend my comment if I could.

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:22 AM

That is the dumbest graph I have ever seen.

VegasRick on July 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Just wait a couple of weeks and you’ll see libfree link several more “The One Graph You Need To See That Makes My Point” links. You’ll have a hard time deciding which one is the dumbest.

gwelf on July 18, 2013 at 10:24 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts.

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

The laws favor people who are tired of being told by simpering liberals to either run away, arm themselves with kiddie scissors, or pee their pants to ward off an attacker.

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:25 AM

Dear Akzed: http://www.policymic.com/articles/54671/the-one-graph-that-proves-stand-your-ground-laws-help-jurors-let-white-defendants-go-free

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Sorry, LFoD, but that’s a data-free chart – it has absolutely no meaning. Unless the facts of the cases are examined, a racial breakdown has no relevance.

GWB on July 18, 2013 at 10:26 AM

The laws favor people who are tired of being told by simpering liberals to either run away, arm themselves with kiddie scissors, or pee their pants to ward off an attacker.

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:25 AM

That’s a little unfair: liberals want you to pee on your attacker not yourself to ward them off.

gwelf on July 18, 2013 at 10:27 AM

VegasRick on July 18, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Consider the source for the link.

Bmore on July 18, 2013 at 10:27 AM

I thought you were supposed to pee on yourself and barf on an attacker, now you’re telling me it’s opposite?

Great, all these months of practicing for nothing. NOTHING!

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:30 AM

You know what, the Attorney General Of The United States lied this week.

d1carter on July 18, 2013 at 10:32 AM

OT: Joe Scarborough weighed in on the Tsarnaev cover “We were trying to figure out why they hated us, and we ended up realizing they hated us because we were evil.”

Just when you thought you couldn’t hate this guy more.

faraway on July 18, 2013 at 10:32 AM

gwelf on July 18, 2013 at 10:27 AM

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:30 AM

You both are using bad information. You are supposed to act as an emergency therapist for your attacker and try and understand what compels the poor soul to be violent.

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:33 AM

As far as I’m concerned my right to stand my ground was granted to me the moment this nation came into existence God breathed life into us, bought and paid for by the men who defeated the mightiest army on Earth.

Free men don’t need government permission to defend whatever patch of ground they happen to be standing on when faced with a threat, I’ll only retreat if I choose to retreat, not because some gubment jackwad tells me I have to.

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:15 AM
Amended, and AMEN!

GWB on July 18, 2013 at 10:34 AM

What does a race-fueled gay bashing MMA attack have to do with stand your ground?

faraway on July 18, 2013 at 10:35 AM

OT: Joe Scarborough weighed in on the Tsarnaev cover “We were trying to figure out why they hated us, and we ended up realizing they hated us because we were evil.”

Just when you thought you couldn’t hate this guy more.

faraway on July 18, 2013 at 10:32 AM

Which begs the question, “What has Obama done to fix that?”

Going by Joe’s standard, Obama must be evil, too, given how so many Egyptians hate him but still say they love Americans.

Liam on July 18, 2013 at 10:35 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts. in liberal states…defending your life and your family…and your property with a wet pickle is the best option…works for me…

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

What glitteratti perfesser really means.

workingclass artist on July 18, 2013 at 10:37 AM

You both are using bad information. You are supposed to act as an emergency therapist for your attacker and try and understand what compels the poor soul to be violent.

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:33 AM

Or, better, run to one of those painted-off ‘safe zones’. No criminal could cross into that square the same way a vampire can’t cross a threshold without being invited.

Liam on July 18, 2013 at 10:37 AM

Consider the source for the link.

Bmore on July 18, 2013 at 10:27 AM

True.

VegasRick on July 18, 2013 at 10:39 AM

I thought you were supposed to pee on yourself and barf on an attacker, now you’re telling me it’s opposite?

Great, all these months of practicing for nothing. NOTHING!

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:30 AM

And I’ve been barfing on myself and peeing on the attacker.

We’ve got to get our technique straight.

gwelf on July 18, 2013 at 10:39 AM

Or, better, run to one of those painted-off ‘safe zones’. No criminal could cross into that square the same way a vampire can’t cross a threshold without being invited.

Liam on July 18, 2013 at 10:37 AM

Well, liberals do live in a fantasy world after all.

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:40 AM

Martin had at least four minutes to exercise his “duty to retreat”.

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 10:41 AM

I thought you were supposed to pee on yourself and barf on an attacker, now you’re telling me it’s opposite?

Great, all these months of practicing for nothing. NOTHING!

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:30 AM

Learning how to menstruate has been a big waste of time! Dammit!

VegasRick on July 18, 2013 at 10:43 AM

Ouch……..Ewwww.

Bmore on July 18, 2013 at 10:45 AM

Changes in the rate of homicide/manslaughter is irrelevant. My rights don’t end when another usues them irresponsibly. We shouldn’t even be arguing this issue. There’s no need to make the case on statistics, our rights are more imprtant than that.

abobo on July 18, 2013 at 10:45 AM

If I aim a gun at someone who doesn’t pose a clear and immediate threat, it’s assault.

If I pee on someone or into their coffee, it’s assault.

But it’s okay to pee (or barf) one someone to defend myself, while using a gun isn’t?

I don’t see any equivalence there, like in matters of assault as I stated. Besides, peeing on someone might arouse them or make them really mad, which is no way to stop an attack. A gun, on the other hand, will scare the devil out of them and keep me safe.

Liam on July 18, 2013 at 10:46 AM

This is a workplace violence initiative, the Democrats want to keep Felon-Americans safe. Who could oppose that? It’s for the children.

NoDonkey on July 18, 2013 at 10:46 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

You may not get around much, but… there are mostly white folks in the country. Are you saying that you would like to get rid of them?

faraway on July 18, 2013 at 10:47 AM

Folks, this is not rocket science. We know that blacks are significantly over-represented in the commission of felonies, violent crimes, murders, etc.

Should it then be any surprise then that an additional relatively minor piece of law relating to such crimes would affect more blacks?

slickwillie2001 on July 18, 2013 at 10:51 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts.

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

The laws favor people who are tired of being told by simpering liberals to either run away, arm themselves with kiddie scissors, or pee their pants to ward off an attacker.

Bishop on July 18, 2013 at 10:25 AM

Our statist “friend” doesn’t want to answer the qustion, “Why do you want to give MORE power to the state and its police arm, and less power to individuals like:

Amadou Diallo, the Central Park Five, Oscar Grant, Stanley “Rock” Scott, Donnell “Bo” Lucas, Tommy Yates, Angel Castro, Jr. Bilal Ashraf, Anthony Starks, Johnny Gammage, Malice Green, Darlene Tiller, Alvin Barroso, Marcillus Miller, Brenda Forester, Eliberto Saldana, Elzie Coleman, Tracy Mayberry, De Andre Harrison, Sonji Taylor, Baraka Hall, Sean Bell, Tyisha Miller, Devon Nelson, LaTanya Haggerty, Prince Jamel Galvin, Robin Taneisha Williams, Melvin Cox, Rudolph Bell, Sheron Jackson, Eleanor Bumpers, and Jordan Davis.”

ebrown2 on July 17, 2013 at 11:50 AM

ebrown2 on July 17, 2013 at 5:21 PM

ebrown2 on July 18, 2013 at 10:51 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

You may not get around much, but… there are mostly white folks in the country. Are you saying that you would like to get rid of them?

faraway on July 18, 2013 at 10:47 AM

Not when there are multi-ethnic Hispanic Obama supporters to target first…

ebrown2 on July 18, 2013 at 10:52 AM

Well, plus, the argument I’ve been hearing from many of Trayvon’s supporters who said he had a right to defend himself was that HE (Trayvon) was standing his ground when he punched Zimmerman.

sydneyjane on July 18, 2013 at 10:10 AM

I tried to reply to this in a thoughtful and intelligent way but, I just can’t defend stupid and that is what these supporters are. In every single self defense altercation the good guy depends on which side you are on. Supporters of TM see him as the hero protecting himself and his baby brother from a racist ass cracka that was stalking them. People supporting GZ see TM as a punk looking to beat down a white man that was just going about his business. As in most of these type of issues the truth is not black and white.
As far as I’m concerned. I don’t give a crap about either TM or GZ. TM acted stupid and Darwin caught up with him. It is really stupid to confront somebody unless you really have no choice. What I care about in this case was the blatant misconduct that took place and continues to take place. This has been turned into a big deal by the media, guilty white and the race baiters. It does not speak well for the future if we allow kangaroo courts to drive the direction of this country and that is what is happening with this case.

Dr. Frank Enstine on July 18, 2013 at 10:54 AM

Dear Akzed: http://www.policymic.com/articles/54671/the-one-graph-that-proves-stand-your-ground-laws-help-jurors-let-white-defendants-go-free

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Sorry, LFoD, but that’s a data-free chart – it has absolutely no meaning. Unless the facts of the cases are examined, a racial breakdown has no relevance.

GWB on July 18, 2013 at 10:26 AM

Individual facts have no place in a PC postmodernist narrative, GWB.

ebrown2 on July 18, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Of course they don’t, and a little tidbit for those who insist stand your ground laws somehow are unfair to blacks.

31 states are stand-your-ground states. Good luck getting that changed gun-grabbers. You wackadoodles couldn’t even get legislation out of the Senate for gun-grabbing. And Old No-Eyes (Stevie Wonder) won’t ever be visiting Motown again because Michigan is a stand your ground state. I love it!

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:17 AM

Oh my, such inconvenient data. I wonder of our low-information perfesser will ignore that too?

slickwillie2001 on July 18, 2013 at 10:56 AM

You both are using bad information. You are supposed to act as an emergency therapist for your attacker and try and understand what compels the poor soul to be violent.

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:33 AM

Violent behavior is caused by a mineral deficiency. Its either lead or copper I can never remember which so I use copper jacketed lead bullets as a sure fire cure.

meci on July 18, 2013 at 10:59 AM

Oh my, such inconvenient data. I wonder of our low-information perfesser will ignore that too?

slickwillie2001 on July 18, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Either that, or simply rationalize it away. It’s what jackboot-loving police state thugs do.

African Americans benefit from Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” self-defense law at a rate far out of proportion to their presence in the state’s population, despite an assertion by Attorney General Eric Holder that repealing “Stand Your Ground” would help African Americans.

Black Floridians have made about a third of the state’s total “Stand Your Ground” claims in homicide cases, a rate nearly double the black percentage of Florida’s population. The majority of those claims have been successful, a success rate that exceeds that for Florida whites.

Nonetheless, prominent African Americans including Holder and “Ebony and Ivory” singer Stevie Wonder, who has vowed not to perform in the Sunshine State until the law is revoked, have made “Stand Your Ground” a central part of the Trayvon Martin controversy.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/blacks-benefit-from-florida-stand-your-ground-law-at-disproportionate-rate/#ixzz2ZPRP5laS

ebrown2 on July 18, 2013 at 10:59 AM

I tried to reply to this in a thoughtful and intelligent way but, I just can’t defend stupid and that is what these supporters are. In every single self defense altercation the good guy depends on which side you are on. Supporters of TM see him as the hero protecting himself and his baby brother from a racist ass cracka that was stalking them. People supporting GZ see TM as a punk looking to beat down a white man that was just going about his business. As in most of these type of issues the truth is not black and white.
As far as I’m concerned. I don’t give a crap about either TM or GZ. TM acted stupid and Darwin caught up with him. It is really stupid to confront somebody unless you really have no choice. What I care about in this case was the blatant misconduct that took place and continues to take place. This has been turned into a big deal by the media, guilty white and the race baiters. It does not speak well for the future if we allow kangaroo courts to drive the direction of this country and that is what is happening with this case.

Dr. Frank Enstine on July 18, 2013 at 10:54 AM

It’s the HoneyBooBoo & Jersey Shore world created through the educational efforts of Slavenowandie and his ilk at work.

ebrown2 on July 18, 2013 at 11:00 AM

One more time…

Stand Your Ground had nothing to do with the Zimmerman trial.

The prosecution did not mention it. The defense did not use it to justify Zimmerman’s action. And contrary to the what B37 said in the Cooper interview, it was not in the jury instructions (no wonder she had trouble understanding them).

So why are we discussing SYG?

Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide.

SYG is a racist law created by whites for the benfit of whites at the expense of blacks. SYG is racist! Racist! Racist!

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Edited to make the sub-text and agenda clear.

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 11:01 AM

Since black violent crime rates are 7-12 times the white rate (depending on how you choose and crunch your data sets), wouldn’t one expect to see SYG used 7-12 times more often against black criminals, you know, if things were fair and all?

The whole issue ticks me off as there is an underlying assumption that we who CC “want” to shoot anyone. I have home owner’s insurance and auto insurance but I certainly never want my house to burn down nor my car to be in an accident or get stolen. CC is no more than that. Being prepared for a worst case situation that one hopes to never find oneself involved. However, if I ever am forced into a situation where I must use lethal force for protection of myself or others, I certainly want to be protected from an over-zealous or agenda driven prosecutor. There have been too many cases where someone has been prosecuted for not having retreated enough as determined by prosecutors in the light of day, in the safe comfort of a well-protected gov’t office, with hours rather than seconds to ponder the situation.

deepdiver on July 18, 2013 at 11:01 AM

Since black violent crime rates are 7-12 times the white rate (depending on how you choose and crunch your data sets), wouldn’t one expect to see SYG used 7-12 times more often against black criminals, you know, if things were fair and all?

The whole issue ticks me off as there is an underlying assumption that we who CC “want” to shoot anyone. I have home owner’s insurance and auto insurance but I certainly never want my house to burn down nor my car to be in an accident or get stolen. CC is no more than that. Being prepared for a worst case situation that one hopes to never find oneself involved. However, if I ever am forced into a situation where I must use lethal force for protection of myself or others, I certainly want to be protected from an over-zealous or agenda driven prosecutor. There have been too many cases where someone has been prosecuted for not having retreated enough as determined by prosecutors in the light of day, in the safe comfort of a well-protected gov’t office, with hours rather than seconds to ponder the situation.

deepdiver on July 18, 2013 at 11:01 AM

Once the fundamental right of self-defense is removed, all other rights become privileges which can disappear at whim.

ebrown2 on July 18, 2013 at 11:07 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

You may not get around much, but… there are mostly white folks in the country. Are you saying that you would like to get rid of them?

faraway on July 18, 2013 at 10:47 AM

I think that is indeed what the left wants-it obviously is not truly concerned about the deaths of blacks-it only wants more whites to die.
To make it fair you know.

questionmark on July 18, 2013 at 11:10 AM

So why are we discussing SYG?…

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 11:01 AM

To line up SYG as a GOTV issue for 2014.

slickwillie2001 on July 18, 2013 at 11:13 AM

AG Holder….

Why didn’t Martin retreat when he had the opportunity?

He started to do that when he ran away from the “crazy-ass cracka”.

He started his retreat. He only had about 350 feet left to go to get back to his home. He didn’t make it there in four minutes. Why not? What happened? Did he shirk his “duty to retreat’?

If he did not want to go there because he feared the “crazy-ass cracka” he had “profiled” as a pervert and rapist might discover the younger black kid there, he could have just kept on running and retreating, doing his “duty to retreat”.

How far can a physically fit 5’11″ tall 160 lb 17 year old football player run in four minutes? How far can a technically obese out-of-shape 5’7″ 29 year run in four minutes? And how close could he get in four minutes to a physically fit 5′ 11″ tall 160 lb 17 year old football player that he spotted a 200 ft head start?

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 11:18 AM

I’m sure this has been said several times, but this study overlooks who is being killed at a higher rate. The more pertinent would be one showing the rate of killings where no other crime was in progress or, possibly, deleting those killings where the victim was the aggressor. In short, how many innocent people were killed?

Hucklebuck on July 18, 2013 at 11:25 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

So the criminal racist AG claims that citizens have a duty to withdraw from harm. Wouldn’t that mean the worthless street thug should have put the skittles and ice tea in his hoodie and withdrawn from confrontation instead of attacking a man in his own neighborhood who had legitimate concerns about theft after a string of burglaries involving a gang who wears hoodies?

George Zimmerman didn’t have the ability to withdraw from harm what with his head being pounded into the cement and a worthless street thug on top of him.

Happy Nomad on July 18, 2013 at 11:28 AM

I’m sure this has been said several times, but this study overlooks who is being killed at a higher rate. The more pertinent would be one showing the rate of killings where no other crime was in progress or, possibly, deleting those killings where the victim was the aggressor. In short, how many innocent people were killed?

Hucklebuck on July 18, 2013 at 11:25 AM

I don’t know, how many? Of course our justice system practices that totally unfair concept of innocent until proven guilty, but until we adopt mob rule for our trials anyone acquitted of murder (or not charged) are technically the innocent.

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 11:29 AM

I was wasting time on some HuffPo threads yesterday, and it’s become an ironclad fact among most of them that SYG is why GZ was acquitted. Lots of conservatives on those threads were trying to set them straight, but they are impervious to facts. Now the idiots are saying that “well, it was in the jury’s instructions!”. They don’t understand the phrase was in there to describe one way to excuse the use of deadly force, but that GZ did not need to meet that standard, since he was unable to retreat. Facts and the law mean nothing to marxists.

juliesa on July 18, 2013 at 11:33 AM

How far can a physically fit 5’11″ tall 160 lb 17 year old football player run in four minutes? How far can a technically obese out-of-shape 5’7″ 29 year run in four minutes? And how close could he get in four minutes to a physically fit 5′ 11″ tall 160 lb 17 year old football player that he spotted a 200 ft head start?

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 11:18 AM

Let’s do some simple arithmetic.

Let’s say Martin can run a mile in 8 minutes. Should be fairly easy for someone his age in his physical condition. He was already 200 ft ahead before Zimmerman left his vehicle. In four minutes he could run 1/2 of a mile or 2640 feet.

Let’s say Zimmerman can run a 12 minute mile,even though I doubt he was physically capable of running a half mile at that pace. Plus, there is no indication Zimmerman was running for most of the four minutes. But, whatever. For the purpose of doing some calculations, that’s 1/3 of a mile in four minutes, or 1742 feet.

Martin already had a head start of 200 feet. In four minutes he should have been able to “retreat” away from Zimmerman at least 1100 feet. In the dark Zimmerman would not be able to see him 1100 feet ahead.

Clearly Martin did not do his “duty to retreat”.

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 11:35 AM

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Please see my link, you dope.

Akzed on July 18, 2013 at 11:35 AM

Despite the fact that Florida’s “stand your ground” had little application to the trial of George Zimmerman — he was pinned to the ground and unable to retreat when he felt afraid for his life according to the defense and not threatened at all according to the prosecution — politicians have attacked the self-defense law as a carte blanche for Wild West-type gun violence.

Classic demagoguery. We’re always getting warned about the possibility of the return of the Wild West . The Wild West was a lot safer than your typical Chicago weekend.

There Goes the Neighborhood on July 18, 2013 at 11:36 AM

And Old No-Eyes (Stevie Wonder) won’t ever be visiting Motown again because Michigan is a stand your ground state. I love it! NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:17 AM

Take it easy on Little Stevie, I think he’s suffering from herpes-related dementia.

Akzed on July 18, 2013 at 11:39 AM

Remember the SNL skit spoofing Sinatra’s “Duets” albums? Ol’ Blue Eyes and Stevie sang,

SW: I am black,
And you are white.
FS: You’re blind as a bat,
And I got sight.

Akzed on July 18, 2013 at 11:41 AM

And Old No-Eyes (Stevie Wonder) won’t ever be visiting Motown again because Michigan is a stand your ground state. I love it!

NotCoach on July 18, 2013 at 10:17 AM

Take it easy on Little Stevie, I think he’s suffering from herpes-related dementia.

Akzed on July 18, 2013 at 11:39 AM

I take Little Stevie’s comments to mean that he has no concert tours in the works. As soon as this begins to affect his income he will drop it quietly.

slickwillie2001 on July 18, 2013 at 11:43 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

90% of inter-racial crime is black perp, white victim.

So that makes sense.

Akzed on July 18, 2013 at 11:44 AM

This is just another run at gun control. Remember, the Left, unlike the GOP, never surrender. They never admit defeat. They just retreat, regroup, and try again.

If only the GOP had their tenacity.

Charlemagne on July 18, 2013 at 10:18 AM

What do you expect? They’re religious fanatics who worship all-inclusive government.

There Goes the Neighborhood on July 18, 2013 at 11:45 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts.

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Blacks Benefit from Florida ‘Stand Your Ground’ Law at Disproportionate Rate

GarandFan on July 18, 2013 at 11:46 AM

Through a recent Executive Order this past spring, the CDC did a study entitled “Priorities For Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,” and that states:

“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies”

“Annually, citizens defended themselves with a gun between 500,000 and 3 million times a year”.

It’s interesting how these facts get pushed into the background when they don’t fit the desired agenda.

So those of you that choose to be made into victims, go right ahead, it is your Right to choose that outcome for yourself. As for me and mine, I choose to exercise my God given Rights of self defense, and frankly is none of your damn business.

PermanentWaves on July 18, 2013 at 11:46 AM

I was wasting time on some HuffPo threads yesterday, and it’s become an ironclad fact among most of them that SYG is why GZ was acquitted. Lots of conservatives on those threads were trying to set them straight, but they are impervious to facts. Now the idiots are saying that “well, it was in the jury’s instructions!”. They don’t understand the phrase was in there to describe one way to excuse the use of deadly force, but that GZ did not need to meet that standard, since he was unable to retreat. Facts and the law mean nothing to marxists.

juliesa on July 18, 2013 at 11:33 AM

What is worse, I read the jury instructions and the phrase “stand your ground” is not in there. B37 misstated that.

The lefties are also impervious to the fact the Zimmerman was not told by the NEN dispatcher to stay in his vehicle before he left his vehicle. Nor was he told after he had already left it. The NEN dispatcher never, ever said that to him. Not ever.

The lefties and the MSM repeat blatant falsehoods and lies over and over and over again until most people think they are fact.

They are fundamentally dishonest. They operate just like Lenin, Hitler, and Goebbels, who would tell any lie to anyone as often as possible if they thought it would advance their agenda and achieve their goals.

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 11:47 AM

In short, how many innocent people were killed?

Hucklebuck on July 18, 2013 at 11:25 AM

Now, that’s just crazy talk. Or, is that “cray, cray”?

Fallon on July 18, 2013 at 11:47 AM

slickwillie2001 on July 18, 2013 at 11:43 AM

By Brandon Blackwell, The Plain Dealer
on November 03, 2012 at 1:58 PM, updated November 03, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Fewer than 200 people showed up to watch Wonder perform a handful of his hits at the early voting event in support of President Barack Obama.

His career is now a boycott audiences.

Akzed on July 18, 2013 at 11:49 AM

What is worse, I read the jury instructions and the phrase “stand your ground” is not in there.

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 11:47 AM

I have to correct myself. The phrase “stand your ground” is not there. But “stand his ground” is there.

“If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Mea Culpa.

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 11:50 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

If I was a race-baiting grievance-monger like our old pal Libby i would say its about time the gubmint gave whitey a break. Good thing I’m not, huh?

cornbred on July 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants claiming justifiable homicide. These are facts.

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Cute. Your, ‘The national trend is clear’ stinks as bad as Obama’s ‘The science is settled’ global nonsense comments.

The link you provide is to a lefty goofball whose own findings are lambasted on that very site.
Nor does it take into consideration that in such crimes, the black is the aggressor in an overwhelming number of these cases.

And that’s a fact…

CaptFlood on July 18, 2013 at 11:56 AM

Since black violent crime rates are 7-12 times the white rate (depending on how you choose and crunch your data sets), wouldn’t one expect to see SYG used 7-12 times more often against black criminals, you know, if things were fair and all?

The whole issue ticks me off as there is an underlying assumption that we who CC “want” to shoot anyone. I have home owner’s insurance and auto insurance but I certainly never want my house to burn down nor my car to be in an accident or get stolen. CC is no more than that. Being prepared for a worst case situation that one hopes to never find oneself involved. However, if I ever am forced into a situation where I must use lethal force for protection of myself or others, I certainly want to be protected from an over-zealous or agenda driven prosecutor. There have been too many cases where someone has been prosecuted for not having retreated enough as determined by prosecutors in the light of day, in the safe comfort of a well-protected gov’t office, with hours rather than seconds to ponder the situation.

deepdiver on July 18, 2013 at 11:01 AM

The only thing I would add to that is that the Zimmerman trial proves those laws are needed. Even though this specific law was not invoked during the trial, it’s clear that prosecutors can go on a vendetta to convict someone who was just defending himself, and we need laws to limit that.

There Goes the Neighborhood on July 18, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Low-infos gonna’ boycott Florida, orange juice, SYG states, and all CC states!! Wow! Please don’t let them know that if they did that, there would be dancing in the streets and great relief that their gangsta criminal behavior would suddenly disappear! Jessie Jackson wants the UN involved…maybe they will boycott the whole country!!

Marco on July 18, 2013 at 12:53 PM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

You may not get around much, but… there are mostly white folks in the country. Are you saying that you would like to get rid of them?

faraway on July 18, 2013 at 10:47 AM

I think that is indeed what the left wants-it obviously is not truly concerned about the deaths of blacks-it only wants more whites to die.
To make it fair you know.

questionmark on July 18, 2013 at 11:10 AM

They feel the same way about jews.

Back during Israels military operations to stop Hamas rocket attacks, liberals and terrorist sympathizers used the disparity between Israeli casualties and Hamas casualties to prove that Israel was the one in the wrong (it was 13 Israeli dead to 1,417 Hamas killed). The direct implication was that liberals would have been ok if 1,000+ more jews had been killed.

Alberta_Patriot on July 18, 2013 at 1:15 PM

OT: Joe Scarborough weighed in on the Tsarnaev cover “We were trying to figure out why they hated us, and we ended up realizing they hated us because we were evil.”

Just when you thought you couldn’t hate this guy more.

faraway on July 18, 2013 at 10:32 AM

I’d hate him too, but his apparent self-loathing is enough for both of us.

Alberta_Patriot on July 18, 2013 at 1:18 PM

“between 28 and 33 additional white males are killed each month” as a result of these laws.

OK – but WHO the people getting killed?
If it’s the criminal getting killed instead of the intended victim, then I’d say the laws are doing what they’re supposed to do.
In Most or all of these cases, it’s likely SOMEONE was going to die, but without the STG law it would have been the innocent victim instead. WITH the law, it’s the criminal who causes his own death by attacking an armed “victim”.
I say that’s a good thing.

dentarthurdent on July 18, 2013 at 2:08 PM

The protests, marches, defacing and destruction of property, and attacks on whites and Latinos is NOT about the ‘Stand Your Ground’ law. I believe it was Rhanm Emmanuel who coined the phrase regarding how Democrats believe they should never let a ‘good’ emrgency / tragedy go to wast….and the usual and not so usual RACE PIMPS are out getting face time, getting donations, placating blacks and black organizations, stirring up distrust of our legal system, stirring up hatred of whites and Latinos, inciting hatred, racism, divisiveness, and the resulting violence!

‘Stand Your Ground’ plaued NO PART in the Zimmerman trial, as neither the prosecution nor the defense cited, invoked, or used it in any way. The defense’s case was based solely on ‘Self-Defense’. Never to let facts get in the way, Sharpton still vows to incite anger, racism, hatred, marches, and protests in 100 cities across the nation against a law that had nothing to do with the Zimmerman trial or verdict. Sharpton is a pathetic, race-baiting, race-pimping LEACH who is USING Martin’s death to perpetuate his own relevance as a black leader, as he lives off / makes a living from promoting racism…even where there is none and is no stranger to criminal activity:

In 1983 the ‘Reverend’ was caught on FBI audio-tape talking about laundering drug money with former mobster Michael Franzese, a then FBI informant posing as a drug dealer. In 1987 Sharpton championed the HOAX claim by Tawanna Brawley of abduction and rape by 6 police officers. In this case Sharpton compared then-state Attorney General Robert Abrams, a Jew, to Adolf Hitler. All three linked then-Gov. Mario Cuomo to organized crime and the Ku Klux Klan. It was also alleged but not proven that Sharpton was involved in wire taps and forgeries in an attempt to prove the case. When the hoax was exposed, the huckster packed up his wagon, refused to apologize to the 6 policemen, and moved on to the race-profiteering opportunity.

The truth is ‘racism’ is a multi-billion dollar a year INDUSTRY. While professing to want change and elimination of racism this is, in fact, the LAST thing they want to see. If CHANGE is what we really sought Paula Dean would not be so vilely persecuted for using the ‘N’ word 27 years ago and instead applauded for changing over time. If ‘racism’ ended over night, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the NAACP, and other people/groups would be completely out of a job, would lose billions of dollars per year, would lose their perks, the ability to be in the limelight, and would have to actually find a JOB! Police were pressured to press charges against Zimmerman in this case. The Prosecution was pressured to make a prosecution to the point where they attempted to falsely paint George Zimmerman as a racist, hate-filled, cop wannabe, an image both the Zimmerman’s defense & the FBI (through their own investigation) DEBUNKED! The State Prosecuting Attorney, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Eric Holder, President Obama, and more attempted to CREATE a case of racism in this case, which I would argue IS MORE of a ‘Hate Crime’ and/or a ‘Civil Rights’ Violation against Zimmerman’s right to a fair trial and against unlawful prosecution (attempt to falsely depict / frame Zimmerman as a aracist?) than what they are falsely claiming about Zimmerman!

easyt65 on July 18, 2013 at 2:10 PM

The national trend is clear. Stand Your Ground Laws overwhelmingly favor white defendants

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

As usual, you’re lying.
But, even if true, maybe its because the overwhelming majority of criminals are black….

dentarthurdent on July 18, 2013 at 2:14 PM

If we are talking statistics regarding ‘Stand Your Ground’, Sharpton and Holder definitely want to stay away from this argument, as statistics show more blacks use ‘Stand Your Ground’ & have gotten off using this defense than whites. Just weeks ago, during the Zimmerman trial, a black man in Florida was attacked by a white man, similarly to the Zimmerman case except the races were reversed. The black manpulled his weapon, shot and killed the white attacker, and was not even charged with a crime based on ‘Stand Your Ground’ and ‘Self-Defense’. Funny, but I did not see Sharpton, Holder, or the NAACP organizing marches in 100 US cities, riots, and the attacks on BLACKS (the way blacks are now attacking whites & Latinos in the name of Martin) for the injustice the white attacker suffered due to this evil law!

easyt65 on July 18, 2013 at 2:15 PM

easyt65 on July 18, 2013 at 2:15 PM

I also didn’t see hordes of whites rioting across the country because the black man wasn’t charged…..

dentarthurdent on July 18, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Another example of this racial outrage being a ‘witch hunt’ is establishing a tip line to get anyone to step forward with any (credible or not) information they can use to charge Zimmerman with a Federal crime! The real crime is once again the Federal government – this administration – is once again going after individual citizens who they consider ‘enemies’.

Will the Last American out please bring the flag…?!

easyt65 on July 18, 2013 at 2:19 PM

I also didn’t see hordes of whites rioting across the country because the black man wasn’t charged…..

dentarthurdent on July 18, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Thats because we don’t have a white version of Al Sharpton….

easyt65 on July 18, 2013 at 2:20 PM

libfreeordie on July 18, 2013 at 10:11 AM

As I pointed out, you’re wrong. Another statistic blacks & black leaders like Sharpton, Jackson, Holder, & Obama desperately fight to avoid having to talk about is the FACT that 95% of all violent ctimes/death perpetrated against blacks is done so BY BLACKS! Rather than making up racism to earn a buck and keep Americans divided, the RACE PIMPS shuld use their time and effort to addres the REAL problem, which is black-on-black crime! Obama should start in his own back yard that about leads the nation in both categories of gun crimes and black-on-black crime – CHICAGO!

easyt65 on July 18, 2013 at 2:23 PM

I also didn’t see hordes of whites rioting across the country because the black man wasn’t charged…..

dentarthurdent on July 18, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Yeah, but we can blame that on the lack of media coverage, right? /

GWB on July 18, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Please report George Zimmerman to Sanford.florida@usdoj.gov for:

Dating a black woman
Mentoring black youth
Having a business partner who is black
Having black relatives
Spearheading a campaign to help a black homeless man

LetsBfrank on July 18, 2013 at 3:52 PM

Please report George Zimmerman to Sanford.florida@usdoj.gov for:

Dating a black woman
Mentoring black youth
Having a business partner who is black
Having black relatives
Spearheading a campaign to help a black homeless man

LetsBfrank on July 18, 2013 at 3:52 PM

That was all done by the non-racist Hispanic half of George.

Like with when Mr. Hyde takes over Dr. Jekyll, his Freudian racist white half took over that night. The moment he saw a hoodie in the dark something snapped and the non-racist Hispanic half lost all control.

George may not even be aware of all of the things his racist white half has done.

farsighted on July 18, 2013 at 4:15 PM

For the politicians George Zimmerman is about guns. Tuesday night’s mischief was about straight-up pissed-off fun. It takes an on-the-make First AME Church pastor to make it anything else. Regular Right Guy

Mornin Mojo on July 18, 2013 at 5:01 PM

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