Gallup, Fox News polls: Public opposes broad NSA collection of records

posted at 11:21 am on June 13, 2013 by Allahpundit

I’m not going to blog every poll on this topic but some commenters were grumpy about the results of the Pew and CBS polls and I wanted to throw them a bone. If you’re waiting for a backlash, your wait might be over. First, Gallup:

galnsa

And, hot on its heels, Fox News:

foxnsa

Now for the eeyorish caveats. First, in a separate question, Gallup finds that of the 53 percent who disapprove of the program, 21 percent say that there are circumstances under which this sort of data-mining would be appropriate. They’re not hard opponents, in other words, just opponents at this particular moment of the war on terror. Second, what’s missing from both of those questions? Right — a reference to the fact that the programs are authorized by statute (a broad interpretation of that statute, granted, but still) and being carried out under FISA orders from federal judges. The spread here between approval and disapproval is wide enough that mentioning legality might not in itself completely close the gap, but it’ll close it some. If you omit that detail about legality from your poll question, you might lead some respondents who aren’t following these stories closely to believe that this is all being done in absolute secrecy by some rogue agency without the rest of the government knowing. Not true.

On the other hand, here’s how a new Time magazine poll that got very different results framed the same issue. What’s wrong with this question?

timensa

Right — it doesn’t note the mind-boggling scope of the program or emphasize that millions of perfectly innocent Americans are having their data harvested. This question’s just vague enough, in fact, that some people might think it refers to collecting data specifically on terrorist suspects rather than the public at large. That’s why it shows mild approval of the program. Pollsters have to be more careful when asking about this. At a minimum, every question about it should note that the program’s (1) known to Congress and overseen by FISA judges yet also (2) incredibly vast and sophisticated, collecting digital fingerprints from virtually the entire population.

As for Snowden himself, the picture’s mixed. Reuters finds 31 percent who say he’s a “patriot” and 23 percent who say he’s a “traitor,” with 46 percent following the Rand Paul path of prudence and reserving judgment for the time being. Thirty-five percent say he shouldn’t face charges while 25 percent say he should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Gallup has 44 percent saying Snowden did the right thing versus 42 percent who said he did wrong, with ye olde familiar partisan split: The GOP breaks 49/38 in favor of “right,” Democrats break 39/49 in favor of “wrong.” Time magazine’s numbers in favor of Snowden are more robust, but also more complicated: 54 percent say he did a “good thing,” but 53 percent want him prosecuted for leaking anyway. (That number drops to 41 percent among the 18-29 age group, do note.) That’s also in line with Rand Paul’s take on this so far, framing Snowden’s actions as “civil disobedience” to lend moral approval while holding open the possibility of prosecution anyway. Of course, there’s a big caveat to all this too — namely, those numbers could shift a lot if Snowden keeps sharing documents with Chinese media or Chinese intelligence. Stay tuned.

One more question to be asked here: What is all of this doing to public support for Obama, his administration, and big government in general? Two tidbits from Fox News’s poll on that score:

govtoobigdojpolitical

Thanks to the NSA revelations and the cumulative effect of Scandalmania, now is not a good moment for trust in government. In fact, Fox has Obama’s job approval down at 44/50, the lowest it’s been since last April. Gallup has it at 45/47 and Rasmussen has it at 48/51. Probably going to get worse before it gets better.


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Perfect picture, picture perfect!!!

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM

Considering that FOX has been pretty much nonstop in pushing the Snowden-as-traitor narrative, it’s refreshing to see that their base appeal has apparently worn thin.

MadisonConservative on June 13, 2013 at 11:26 AM

The Dem numbers would flip 180 degrees minimum if we had a republican president while the Indy and Rep numbers would likely remain constant.

antipc on June 13, 2013 at 11:32 AM

We are in a permanent state of war. And not just the GWOT. We are at war with poverty, we are at war with drugs, we are at war with racism … Heck, we are even at war with the weather (CO2 and global warming/climate change).

Each and every one of these wars is an excuse for government to usurp more of our liberty. And for government, under the D or the R brand, any excuse is good enough to do just that. Whether it’s RICO statutes, thought/hate crime laws, no knock warrantless searches of homes and wholesale impoundments. The NSA intrusions are simply the most recent large scale tool of the state to control our lives.

MJBrutus on June 13, 2013 at 11:33 AM

we have our squirrel….. Trent franks war on women
-lsm

Forget the polls

cmsinaz on June 13, 2013 at 11:33 AM

Obama response: Shut up and eat your peas.

Marcola on June 13, 2013 at 11:34 AM

There’s a vast gap between the Glenn Greenwald position on the NSA operations and the Bill Kristol position, and most people have yet to decide exactly where they stand, which no doubt explains the conflicts in the polls.

People don’t want the NSA knowing everything they do online or on the phone, but at the same time they don’t see the surveillance efforts as so evil they need to be shut down entirely, consequences be damned (the U.S. already tried something like this back in the late 70s under Carter, following the Church Committee hearings. Folks were mad about NSA/CIA overreach then, but the over-reation led to consequences the U.S. is still paying for today).

jon1979 on June 13, 2013 at 11:35 AM

People don’t like the goverment knowing their every move – shocking.

The more comes out about this, the more angry and creeped out people will get.

gophergirl on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

I wasn’t, and I’m not now. It’s funny to see many of the Tough On Terraists crowd online be all newly concerned about privacy.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

What matters to me is not whether it is authorized by statute but whether it is in accordance with the Constitution of the United States.

I believe that it is.

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:38 AM

Thanks to the NSA revelations and the cumulative effect of Scandalmania, now is not a good moment for trust in government.

How many more of these things have to emerge before Scandalmania becomes Scandapalooza?

The administration would love this week to be all about Snowden- traitor or patriot?, or the Zimmerman trial, or amnesty for the illegals. The NSA Stasi and intrusive government is not the debate they wanted. The public is not going to be assuaged by Alexander’s comments yesterday “trust me we foiled dozens and dozens of plots by spying on you” Interesting times we are living in right now.

Happy Nomad on June 13, 2013 at 11:38 AM

Looking at this, and taking in the caveat that these programs “are supported by statute,” I have to ask; whatever happened to the phrase
“and Congress shall make no law…..”?

Boats48 on June 13, 2013 at 11:41 AM

It’s breathtaking you would call Snowden anything else but a traitor. He not only revealed intelligence secrets and methods to enemies, but he is cavorting with a Chinese government that is one of our nations greatest threats.

Snowden had other means to address his concerns besides media outlets. There are plenty of people in Congress and other places where his allegations could be addressed without putting us in danger and damaging our intelligence gathering operations.

Separate the man from the revelations. Because what he did was dastardly, cowardly and traitorous.

We will get to the bottom of what is legal and unconstitutional. But that is separate and distinct from the very damaging, haphazard way this was revealed.

Marcus Traianus on June 13, 2013 at 11:41 AM

As for Snowden himself, the picture’s mixed. Reuters finds 31 percent who say he’s a “patriot” and 23 percent who say he’s a “traitor,” with 46 percent following the Rand Paul path of prudence and reserving judgment for the time being.

AP hardest hit.

weaselyone on June 13, 2013 at 11:43 AM

Thanks to the NSA revelations and the cumulative effect of Scandalmania, now is not a good moment for trust in government.

You can say that again…in bold.

In related scandlapalooza news…Anyone hear Killary screaming at Bill this morning…

“WASHINGTON — The State Department has hired an alarming number of law-enforcement agents with criminal or checkered backgrounds because of a flawed hiring process, a stunning memo obtained by The Post reveals.

The background problems are severe enough that many of the roughly 2,000 agents in State’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security can play only limited roles in agency efforts to police bad conduct and prosecute wrongdoers.

The problems in the bureau are the latest revelation in an exploding scandal that also involves accusations that members of former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton’s security detail and those of the US ambassador to Belgium solicited prostitutes overseas…

The memo goes on to state that the troubling backgrounds can pose a problem if the agents are needed to testify at trials to assist prosecutors.

“Too many people entering the [Diplomatic Security and Information Management] communities end up as subjects of [Special Investigation Division] investigations and HR adjudications, become Giglio-impaired and can play only limited roles thereafter,” according to the memo.

“Giglio” refers to a US Supreme Court case dealing with jury notification that witnesses have made deals with the government to induce testimony.

Some Diplomatic Security field offices “have major problems just waiting to be discovered,” the memo adds.

An IG spokesman said he couldn’t comment on internal documents, but State has said it prosecutes misconduct, and that the internal draft reports contain “unsubstantiated information.”…

A 2012 letter to State’s labor-management negotiator from the union for foreign-service agents, also obtained by The Post, asserts a pattern of “questionable tactics and unprofessional conduct” by Diplomatic Security agents.

In one case, aggressive interrogation techniques by Diplomatic Service agents drove an employee to attempt suicide when accused of raping his maid in Bangkok, Thailand, the memo suggests. The employee maintained the sex was consensual.

But after “being told he would end up in a Thai prison, his wife would lose her job and his children would be pulled out of school, [the man] attempted suicide by jumping out of the 16th-story window at a hotel in Bangkok,” said the memo.

“Fortunately, he landed on a tarp on the 10th floor and sustained minor injuries.”“It depends on what team you’re on, whether they like you or not,” he said.

The man was flown back to Washington for in-patient psychiatric care, where the agents continued to harass him, the union charged. The rape charges were ultimately dropped.

The memo sites eight cases involving Diplomatic Security agents who resort to “false, misleading or incomplete statements in reports,” “privacy-act violations” or “lack of objectivity” in investigations.

Cary Schulman, lawyer for former IG investigator-turned-whistleblower Aurelia Fedenisn, said Diplomatic Security agents are “wrongfully overly pursuing some people” but letting other have a “free pass.”….”

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/criminals_hired_by_state_dept_nJMKeYl5ZQEI5UsEytHoOM

Whistleblower Aurelia Fedenisn sought help from Sen. Ted Cruz…she gave him the documents.

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 11:43 AM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

I wasn’t, and I’m not now. It’s funny to see many of the Tough On Terraists crowd online be all newly concerned about privacy.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

The guys who are doing this (PRISM) each have one hand tied behind their collective backs. They cannot defend themselves, for to defend themselves, they would have to reveal data which would aid our adversaries.

The NSA is not the IRS. These materials are not being used for political advantage — other than to the political advantage of the foreign relations of the United States of America.

I was for it back then, and I am for it right now. So I am the exact opposite of you. But we both have the advantage of having a seamless garb in this.

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:44 AM

Looking at this, and taking in the caveat that these programs “are supported by statute,” I have to ask; whatever happened to the phrase
“and Congress shall make no law…..”?

Boats48 on June 13, 2013 at 11:41 AM

How quaint. And antiquated. Constitutional references are so not in style.

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 11:45 AM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

I wasn’t, and I’m not now. It’s funny to see many of the Tough On Terraists crowd online be all newly concerned about privacy.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

That’s a false characterization of the postion of those who backed the original Patriot Act. Even the author of the Patriot Act says what the government is doing now is not what was going on or authorized back then.

weaselyone on June 13, 2013 at 11:45 AM

Soon, very soon – the low information voter, welfare types will discover their government cheese is rotten.

redguy on June 13, 2013 at 11:45 AM

You can say that again…in bold.

Thanks to the NSA revelations and the cumulative effect of Scandalmania, now is not a good moment for trust in government.

redguy on June 13, 2013 at 11:46 AM

These materials are not being used for political advantage

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:44 AM

How do you know?

MadisonConservative on June 13, 2013 at 11:46 AM

Perfect picture, picture perfect!!!

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM

Except that he’s holding the phone backwards. ;0

Seriously, remember when that smart phone was too much for him and he ended up blaming the cell service? This is not a technilogical genius.

More to the point, where has the rat-eared coward been on the defense of these programs? You would think polling results would be much different with the administration making a reasonable case for snooping on Americans by their government. So far, even before PRISM was disclosed, all we’ve heard from the rat-eared despot is the declaration that recording the metadata from a billion phonecalls a day was a modest program.

Happy Nomad on June 13, 2013 at 11:47 AM

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

No, we didn’t. Many of us were complaining about the TSA groping people long before Obama started his campaign. Keep trying to make yourself feel better, though.

MadisonConservative on June 13, 2013 at 11:49 AM

Soon, very soon – the low information voter, welfare types will discover their government cheese is rotten.

redguy on June 13, 2013 at 11:45 AM

But they will continue to eat it, and ask for more gruel (More?!) and a crust of bread…

Khun Joe on June 13, 2013 at 11:50 AM

These materials are not being used for political advantage

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:44 AM

1. Prove it.
2. Prove that it cannot be done.

weaselyone on June 13, 2013 at 11:51 AM

…These materials are not being used for political advantage — other than to the political advantage of the foreign relations of the United States of America…

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:44 AM

How could anyone know that? You could just as easily say that the IRS isn’t used for political advantage, except we know that isn’t true now. The point is that if the Government is claiming that they need this to spy on enemies, but intentionally pass on potential enemies (Tsarnaevs) why is it unreasonable to assume any kind of use? We don’t know the whole story yet. But we do know the net is cast on American citizens, with intentional exceptions that shouldn’t be there.

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 11:53 AM

21 percent say that there are circumstances under which this sort of data-mining would be appropriate.

Just not theirs. Looks like some of dear leader’s voters are starting to chew at a hind leg.

Kissmygrits on June 13, 2013 at 11:54 AM

Obama response: Shut up and eat your peas.

Marcola on June 13, 2013 at 11:34 AM

You got peas…all I got was gruel.

You must be kissin’ up to the guards authorities or sumthin’

: )

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 11:56 AM

But they will continue to eat it, and ask for more gruel (More?!) and a crust of bread…

Khun Joe on June 13, 2013 at 11:50 AM

S/B “Demand More”

VegasRick on June 13, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Pollsters have to be more careful when asking about this.

Careful? I don’t have the slightest shred of doubt that Time was being extremely careful to craft the question in the way most favorable to Dear Leader. The same question asked five years ago would have read, “Do you think Chimpy McBushitler should stop listening in on your private phone calls before or after he’s impeached?”

Fabozz on June 13, 2013 at 11:57 AM

I wasn’t, and I’m not now. It’s funny to see many of the Tough On Terraists crowd online be all newly concerned about privacy.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Cool. We are together in strongly opposing Herr Obama’s dangerous and unconstitutional overreach. Welcome aboard.

BoxHead1 on June 13, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Public opposes broad NSA collection of records

Perfectly fine if its narrowed down to collecting records of TEA party members, conservatives and all others critical of Barry’s admin.

Gotta keep an eye on them and ears open to their potential dastardly deeds.

/s

hawkeye54 on June 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM

You got peas…all I got was gruel.

You must be kissin’ up to the guards authorities or sumthin’

: )

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 11:56 AM

That is a little too smart-alecky for “newspeak”. You should rephrase that – quickly.

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 11:59 AM

Perfectly fine if its narrowed down to collecting records of TEA party members, conservatives and all others critical of Barry’s admin.

Gotta keep an eye on them and ears open to their potential dastardly deeds.

/s

hawkeye54 on June 13, 2013 at 11:58 AM

They were too busy screwing the TP folks around to notice the jihadi posts on the boston bombers facebook accounts.

VegasRick on June 13, 2013 at 12:01 PM

Second, what’s missing from both of those questions? Right — a reference to the fact that the programs are authorized by statute (a broad interpretation of that statute, granted, but still) and being carried out under FISA orders from federal judges.

In 33 years, the kangaroo court with a rubber stamp a/k/a the FISC has only refused the government 11 times.

33,949 applications for warrants have been presented to the FISC since 1979.

33,938 warrant applications have been approved by the FISC since 1979.

IOW, the FISC has approved warrant applications 99.97% of the time since 1979.

Resist We Much on June 13, 2013 at 12:02 PM

These materials are not being used for political advantage

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:44 AM

1. Prove it.
2. Prove that it cannot be done.

weaselyone on June 13, 2013 at 11:51 AM

Obama Includes Evangelical Christians on List of Religious Extremists

…and all Catholics btw. The REB will use muslim terrorism to justify a fascist state, then will not use the fascist state to fight terrorism but instead to intimidate and suppress his political opponents.

slickwillie2001 on June 13, 2013 at 12:02 PM

These materials are not being used for political advantage

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:44 AM

You don’t know that is true…you hope that it is true….But a lot of people hope that is true…

Sensenbrenner says the defense of NSA domestic spying is Bunk…and this clearly violates the Patriot Act.

Klayman of Freedom Watch has filed a $23 billion NSA law suit & is also suing the providers.

Denial aint’ just a river in Egypt.

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 12:02 PM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

So….. you’re essentially calling Hot Airians a bunch of hypocrites? Sorry sport, I’d say most of us are reacting to the principles not the party.

And for the record, “this” is far more extensive or intrusive than the operation GWB was running.

Happy Nomad on June 13, 2013 at 12:02 PM

The guys who are doing this (PRISM) each have one hand tied behind their collective backs. They cannot defend themselves, for to defend themselves, they would have to reveal data which would aid our adversaries.

That much is true.

The NSA is not the IRS. These materials are not being used for political advantage — other than to the political advantage of the foreign relations of the United States of America.

Why would you assume it is not being used politically? Given Obama’s track record, it almost certainly is being used politically. If he can find a way, he’ll do it.

I was for it back then, and I am for it right now. So I am the exact opposite of you. But we both have the advantage of having a seamless garb in this.

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:44 AM

I was for spying on foreigners, as is traditional in most countries. Spying on Americans with a general warrant is unconstitutional.

Fenris on June 13, 2013 at 12:06 PM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

I wasn’t.

Resist We Much on June 13, 2013 at 12:12 PM

And for the record, “this” is far more extensive or intrusive than the operation GWB was running.

Happy Nomad on June 13, 2013 at 12:02 PM

You don’t know the half of it…

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/exclusive-top-nsa-whistleblower-spills-the-beans-on-the-real-scope-of-the-spying-program.html

ROCnPhilly on June 13, 2013 at 12:12 PM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Not me.

jawkneemusic on June 13, 2013 at 12:15 PM

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

No, we didn’t. Many of us were complaining about the TSA groping people long before Obama started his campaign. Keep trying to make yourself feel better, though.

MadisonConservative on June 13, 2013 at 11:49 AM

True.

Many conservatives were conflicted by the potential for abuse(s) in the Patriot Act…Of course there were supposed to be oversight and sunset measures. There was supposed to be balances for constitutional protections v security measures.

The abuses have ramped up since Obama was elected…

This is a two part coup d’état.

The first part tips the balance of power to the executive and the judicial by castrating the oversight for both…the congress.

The second part is the Putsch…achieved with a substantial new voting demographic which puts in place a permanent majority party who’s primary interest is to expand power at the expense of the citizens and the Constitution.

Bread & Circuses

The old Fascist Tyranny story…played out here.

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 12:16 PM

The democrat party makes me sick. Remember how Bush was destroying the Constitution with the Patriot Act? Now they love it.

jawkneemusic on June 13, 2013 at 12:16 PM

Imagine if that first poll had actually used the word “everyone”

WryTrvllr on June 13, 2013 at 12:17 PM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

I wasn’t, and I’m not now. It’s funny to see many of the Tough On Terraists crowd online be all newly concerned about privacy.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Its called partisanship. Most Americans can’t think beyond party identity. It is a shame.

libfreeordie on June 13, 2013 at 12:18 PM

I wasn’t, and I’m not now. It’s funny to see many of the Tough On Terraists crowd online be all newly concerned about privacy.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

I find I told you so’s are usually insecure types…and tedious…

But that’s just me…

Enjoy yourself.

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 12:22 PM

Right — it doesn’t note the mind-boggling scope of the program or emphasize that millions of perfectly innocent Americans are having their data harvested

Allahpundit – you missed the part where the Times poll implied the program was PRISM. These are 2 different issue – Telephone logs and PRISM.

TerryW on June 13, 2013 at 12:22 PM

Hannity Then and Hannity Now on NSA

http://youtu.be/t27ie4qFlXM

dom89031 on June 13, 2013 at 12:22 PM

Its called partisanship. Most Americans can’t think beyond party identity. It is a shame.

libfreeordie on June 13, 2013 at 12:18 PM

We agree. 80+% of democrats plus 20% republicans would in fact constitute most americans.

I learned how to canoe, the hard way, under Bush II

WryTrvllr on June 13, 2013 at 12:25 PM

And for the record, “this” is far more extensive or intrusive than the operation GWB was running.

Happy Nomad on June 13, 2013 at 12:02 PM

this

Thank you!

cmsinaz on June 13, 2013 at 12:29 PM

I wasn’t, and I’m not now. It’s funny to see many of the Tough On Terraists crowd online be all newly concerned about privacy.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Its called partisanship. Most Americans can’t think beyond party identity. It is a shame.

libfreeordie on June 13, 2013 at 12:18 PM

Moesart is not like you.

Moesart , like me, is against Obama’s ludicrous and dangerous fascist overreach. I welcome him as a fellow opponent of Obama and the fascist Dem Police State. You support Obama and the Dem police state.

BoxHead1 on June 13, 2013 at 12:30 PM

(the U.S. already tried something like this back in the late 70s under Carter, following the Church Committee hearings. Folks were mad about NSA/CIA overreach then, but the over-reaction led to consequences the U.S. is still paying for today).
jon1979 on June 13, 2013 at 11:35 AM

Today’s NSA Domestic Surveillance Program Began BEFORE 9/11 see here: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/10/nsa-asked-for-p/ and here; http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=abIV0cO64zJE and here; http://rawstory.com/news/2007/ATT_engineer_says_Bush_Administration_sought_1216.html

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 12:31 PM

Its called partisanship. Most Americans can’t think beyond party identity. It is a shame.

libfreeordie on June 13, 2013 at 12:18 PM

Duh, your mirror shattered, into a million bits.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:32 PM

And for the record, “this” is far more extensive or intrusive than the operation GWB was running.

Happy Nomad on June 13, 2013 at 12:02 PM

Obama is “Bushhitler” and “Bushchimpey” on steroids.

It’s what’s killing the leftists.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM

First of all, most all countries spy on each other. That has been going on since the beginning of human existence.

Secondly, at no time do Americans want the government to gather all data from private citizens, from their phones, computers, etc. If the government thinks the local mosque has a terror cell or is aiding in terrorism, they can go to a judge for warrants.

Thirdly, I can’t help but wonder if the exposure/media attention of this, along with the IRS scandal, are being used to take our attention away from four murdered US citizens in Benghazi. Benghazi, the scandal that could topple Obama’s presidency. Only the president could give the order to stand down and not help these people from what I understand.

We aren’t talking about Benghazi; we are talking about other scandals.
There are so many that they are difficult to keep up with.

However, Benghazi and the weapons running to Syrian rebels, along with the
murder of four Americans is the bigger story. We need to not take our eyes off of this.

Amjean on June 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM

The stupid European papers report, to this day, that the majority of the Americans approve of it.

They simply can’t get out of Obama’s azz. May they suffocate from what they consume.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:35 PM

Amjean on June 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM

The gov’t needs topling, but that includes Obama and the entire congress.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Obama looks so perfect in that picture.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:38 PM

Right — it doesn’t note the mind-boggling scope of the program or emphasize that millions of perfectly innocent Americans are having their data harvested.

It also doesn’t note that despite harvesting millions of perfectly innocent Americans data, they have yet to prove that they’ve actually thwarted any terrorist attacks that stealing this data is supposed to prevent, or what they intend to do with all this data they’re storing.

scalleywag on June 13, 2013 at 12:42 PM

http://youtu.be/IkQqUdAhgVA

dom89031 on June 13, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Hannity Then and Hannity Now on NSA

http://youtu.be/t27ie4qFlXM

dom89031 on June 13, 2013 at 12:22 PM

Hannity’s opinions on NSA surveillance differ, like the rest of America, depending on who the president is.

For example in 2005 when the original NSA whistle blower Russell D. Tice leaked info that the NSA and the DIA were engaged in unlawful and unconstitutional wiretaps on American citizens.

Republicans demanded that he be tried as a traitor and right-wing talking heads like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly, launched an offensive against his credibility. On his Fox News broadcast of January 11, 2006, O’Reilly said that Tice should be jailed for his whistleblowing activity.

He was called a traitor by the right and a hero by the left.

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 12:43 PM

How did I strike out my own conversation haha

scalleywag on June 13, 2013 at 12:45 PM

f you omit that detail about legality from your poll question, you might lead some respondents who aren’t following these stories closely to believe that this is all being done in absolute secrecy by some rogue agency without the rest of the government knowing. Not true.

I still have not been convinced that this is legal. You are simply assuming legality because the arbitrators and enforcers of the law are the perpetrators and thus, in their defense, calling it legal.

However, I’m pretty sure that they are not the final arbiters in a constitutional republic such as the USA (may it rest in peace). I’m pretty sure there’s a pretty old and important document that is the true final arbiter. According to my reading, and the writings of those that drew up the document, I’m pretty confident in calling this whole business illegal.

Then again, so is about 85% of what Washington does. It’s a shame the public is complicit in their own enslavement.

Pattosensei on June 13, 2013 at 12:46 PM

Right — it doesn’t note the mind-boggling scope of the program or emphasize that millions of perfectly innocent Americans are having their data harvested.

It also doesn’t note that despite harvesting millions of perfectly innocent Americans data, they have yet to prove that they’ve actually thwarted any terrorist attacks that stealing this data is supposed to prevent, or what they intend to do with all this data they’re storing.

scalleywag on June 13, 2013 at 12:46 PM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

No. Many of us were for wiretaps of foreigners under Bush. The Dems and the media lied through their teeth to make it look like Bush wanted warrant-less wiretaps of US citizens, which was never the case.

F in FISA stands for “Foreign”. How exactly is collecting data on US citizens phone calls and emails a foreign matter?

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 12:47 PM

‘If I know every single phone call you made I’m able to determine every single person you talk to. I can get a pattern about your life that is very, very intrusive. The real question here is what do they do with this information they collect that does not have anything to do with Al-Qaeda? And we’re going to trust the president and the vice president of the United States that they’re doing the right thing. Don’t count me in on that.’

- Senator Joe Biden, 2006

‘On second thought, count me in on that now that I am VPOTUS.’ – Biden

Resist We Much on June 13, 2013 at 12:48 PM

‘This administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we provide. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining the Constitution and our freedom.

That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens.

No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime.

No more tracking citizens who do nothing but protest a [policy].

No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient.

It is not who we are. It is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA Court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers and that justice is not arbitrary.

This administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not. There are no short cuts to protecting America.’

- Senator Barack Obama at the Woodrow Wilson Centre on Terrorism, 1 August 2007

The rank hypocrisy is strong with this one.

Resist We Much on June 13, 2013 at 12:50 PM

What matters to me is not whether it is authorized by statute but whether it is in accordance with the Constitution of the United States.
I believe that it is.
unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:38 AM

Now let me get this straight, if this is constitutional then that “no warrant shall issue but on oath or affirmation ” part of the Fourth Ammendment should have been satisfied. Hmmmm? I’d sure like to see the affidavit for the Verizon warrant. Stop the presses! We’ve just discovered the real reason for that new data storage facility. It’s to house the NSA warrant applications. Yes, that last part was sarcastic, but the point remains relevant. I wonder if the Bill of Rights is even discussed any further than the 6th grade these days. But that’s a subject for a different rant.

yesiamapirate on June 13, 2013 at 12:57 PM

…note the mind-boggling scope of the program or emphasize that millions of perfectly innocent Americans are having their data harvested.

Clarifying ring of a bell here:

No one except those involved IN this and other intelligence programs actually knows if that — above — is accurate.

It just may be that traffic information is harvested but not the details IN that traffic (likely, what I am thinking so far is likely the most accurate guess about the thing happening). IF and when someone is identified (how, I don’t know) as suspect in “terrsm” then there’s a finer scrutiny placed on it, AND from what I’m reading, it’s based on communications with foreign locations (does not include domestic-to-domestic without further action like a specific warrant).

The “harvesting” of specifics involves foreign communications or those in US who are engaged in such after they’re suspected of being involved — related to, associated with, communicating with — terrsm abroad.

SO I don’t think all this “harvesting” of domestic, citizen communications includes the contents of what’s being communicated UNLESS there’s some reason to suspect they’re branched out to threats abroad.

I also now think Snowden is a lone nut — egotistical, weirdly antisocial, paranoid grandiose sorta’ insecure guy. And a lot of what he’s boasting, err, leaking, is boosted, mostly by him (exaggerated, overblown, hyped).

But we need to identify who the heck hired Snowden and bestowed security clearance and access to him as he claims he’s been using. Find the fool who he fooled and put them under scrutiny.

Lourdes on June 13, 2013 at 1:15 PM

AND the above does not imply that I find anything done by Obama, his Admin., as trustworthy. I fully expect the man and his troupe have enemies lists that run the nation-wide and they’re not going to stop their activity in that regard even after he’s out of office (it’ll continue, there are too many players dedicated to him at this rate who work in govt.).

I just think that, to the positive side of things, there are good people in our govt. who still do engage in ethical decisions and will continue to do so.

Lourdes on June 13, 2013 at 1:18 PM

They were too busy screwing the TP folks around to notice the jihadi posts on the boston bombers facebook accounts.

Even if they might have wanted to notice….they were probably ordered not to, as doing so would offend muslim organizations such as CAIR and the Muslim Brotherhood, and we all know muslims, in general, are peace loving people who just want to get along with us, so any jihadi blatherings would have to be discounted as just venting hot air and nothing of which to be concerned. So why notice anyway?

/s

hawkeye54 on June 13, 2013 at 1:20 PM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Not me.

Me as well. It was bound to be used in “unexpected” ways. Which is pretty much what I expected.

hawkeye54 on June 13, 2013 at 1:23 PM

The stupid European papers report, to this day, that the majority of the Americans approve of it.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:35 PM

If you read the comments section of the European papers you’ll find that most Europeans have always known since 2005 about the NSA’s domestic spying and believe that Americans approve of such unlawful activities as domestic spying, torture, unlawful renditions, indefinite detention with no charges or trial or the opportunity to see evidence against you, drones, assignations etc, just like the “good Germans” had in WWII.

The European commenters often joke about how Americans have allowed the creation of an unlawful police state but are to dumb to know it.

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 1:23 PM

The stupid European papers report, to this day, that the majority of the Americans approve of it.

They simply can’t get out of Obama’s azz. May they suffocate from what they consume.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:35 PM

Well…They are accustomed to paying vassal tributes to the top dog.

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 1:29 PM

Amjean on June 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM

The gov’t needs topling, but that includes Obama and the entire congress.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:36 PM

I’d like to keep Ted Cruz…Trey Gowdy…Mike Lee

But carry on…

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 1:34 PM

Snowden sure is a strange dude. When he fled to Hong Kong to reveal that the NSA was snooping on American citizens, he was probably expecting that the NSA wouldn’t be happy with him, but that ordinary Americans who fear “Big Brother” would applaud his exposure of the snooping.

But what is to be gained by revealing that the NSA had snooped on thousands of Chinese bank accounts? A “patriotic” American who feared “Big Brother” wouldn’t reveal that, because any information obtained by the NSA on China could be useful to national security and American businesses, and it’s better that the Chinese not know about it. Besides, if Snowden is in Hong Kong, he could be arrested by the Chinese, who are probably NOT very happy about his latest revelation, and might subject him to “enhanced interrogation”.

Steve Z on June 13, 2013 at 1:34 PM

The stupid European papers report, to this day, that the majority of the Americans approve of it.

Schadenfreude on June 13, 2013 at 12:35 PM

If you read the comments section of the European papers you’ll find that most Europeans have always known since 2005 about the NSA’s domestic spying and believe that Americans approve of such unlawful activities as domestic spying, torture, unlawful renditions, indefinite detention with no charges or trial or the opportunity to see evidence against you, drones, assignations etc, just like the “good Germans” had in WWII.

The European commenters often joke about how Americans have allowed the creation of an unlawful police state but are to dumb to know it.

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 1:23 PM

Europeans are hopelessly entrenched in a tiered aristocratic class system they cling to…so there’s that.

workingclass artist on June 13, 2013 at 1:37 PM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

No. Many of us were for wiretaps of foreigners under Bush. The Dems and the media lied through their teeth to make it look like Bush wanted warrant-less wiretaps of US citizens, which was never the case.

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 12:47 PM

Exactly, or for conversations with foreigners if probable cause existed.

Many of us were never all for this.

Are you seriously expecting us to believe that you think commenters on Hot Air aren’t against the “spy on all Americans” mentality that the left wants to practice in its pursuit of terrorists?

blink on June 13, 2013 at 1:12 PM

Where were you guys in 2005 when the original NSA whistle blower Russell D. Tice leaked info that the NSA and the DIA were engaged in unlawful and unconstitutional wiretaps on American citizens?

Tice claimed that spying on Americans involved a massive computer system known as ECHELON, which is able to search and filter millions of phone calls and e-mails in a matter of seconds.

Russell D. Tice also testified that while he worked for the NSA, communications of journalists,(and entire news organizations), were being recorded 24/7.

And at that time it was reported that In October 2005 Government Accountability Office investigators concluded that the Bush administration’s secret policy to pay off influential journalists to plant fake news was illegal and that the “administration had disseminated “covert propaganda” in the United States, in violation of a statutory ban.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/01/politics/01educ.html?ex=1285819200&en=55a295038c3630e7&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Pentagon propaganda bureau, Psychological Operations Command (PSYOPS), had placed their operatives in news divisions around the U.S.!
http://www.fair.org/activism/osi-propaganda.html

Perhaps the most startling aspect of the road map is its acknowledgment that information put out as part of the Pentagon’s psychological operations, or Psyops, is finding its way onto the computer and television screens of ordinary Americans.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655196.stm

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 1:44 PM

Again I ask where were you guys in 2005 when Tice claimed that the NSA’s spying on Americans involved a massive computer system known as ECHELON, which is able to search and filter millions of phone calls and e-mails in a matter of seconds.

And $300 million of taxpayer money for lies and propaganda to be feed to the American people.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/10/AR2005061001910.html

JSOU report states “Hiring a block of bloggers to verbally attack a specific person or promote a specific message may be worth considering.” “Hacking the site and subtly changing the messages and data—merely a few words or phrases—may be sufficient to begin destroying the blogger’s credibility with the audience.” Words and phrases such as the label Conspiracy theory, read page 35.
https://jsoupublic.socom.mil/publications/jsou/JSO

Pentagons Office of Strategic Influence, was in operation before 9/11 and exploited legal loopholes by planting its propaganda in foreign newspapers like the BBC that would later be picked up by U.S. news wires.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1830500.stm

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 1:57 PM

. Besides, if Snowden is in Hong Kong, he could be arrested by the Chinese, who are probably NOT very happy about his latest revelation, and might subject him to “enhanced interrogation”.

Steve Z on June 13, 2013 at 1:34 PM

THat’s a problem. Another problem is that 29 year old middling tech has access to all this information which means that the OFA and DNC has the same information and MORE since the director of the NSA is a political appointment.

You are arguing for the curtailment of this program.

BoxHead1 on June 13, 2013 at 1:58 PM

Again I ask where were you guys in 2005 when Tice claimed that the NSA’s spying on Americans involved a massive computer system known as ECHELON, which is able to search and filter millions of phone calls and e-mails in a matter of seconds.

AS I SAID ABOVE, I OPPOSED BUSH’S SURVEILLANCE PROGRAMMES. Are you blind or ignorant?

FYI, ECHELON dates back to the 1960s.

Resist We Much on June 13, 2013 at 2:03 PM

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 1:57 PM

Where were you in 2005? What were you doing?

To claim that people weren’t against something in 2005 because they don’t bring that up, doesn’t mean someone wasn’t against it. Where were you when Richard Nixon was impeached? How come there is no record of you being against it? When Kerry committed treason by negotiating with the North Vietnamese? When POTUS Clinton handed over missile secrets to the Chinese?

And if you can’t prove that you were protesting or blogging or commenting when all of these things happened then you are a hypocrite just because I say so.

Where were you?

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 2:06 PM

AS I SAID ABOVE, I OPPOSED BUSH’S SURVEILLANCE PROGRAMMES. Are you blind or ignorant?

FYI, ECHELON dates back to the 1960s.

Resist We Much on June 13, 2013 at 2:03 PM

Yes it does go back to the 1960s. Similar Wiretap Debate 30 Years Ago:

At the time, Rumsfeld was defense secretary, Kissinger was secretary of state and Scowcroft was the White House national security and Bush was then director of the CIA.
George H.W. Bush, then director of the CIA, wanted to ensure “no unnecessary diminution of collection of important foreign intelligence” under the proposal to require judges to approve terror wiretaps, according to a March 1976 memorandum he wrote to the Justice Department. Bush also complained that some major communications companies were unwilling to install government wiretaps without a judge’s approval. Such a refusal “seriously affects the capabilities of the intelligence community,” Bush wrote.
Also documented are objections by Rumsfeld, Henry Kissinger and Brent Scowcroft over the scope of a provision to require judicial oversight of wiretaps. http://web.archive.org/web/20060213222729/http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060204/ap_on_go_pr_wh/ford_era_spying_1

It was reported in the 80’s that hundreds of millions of dollars were being used at the time on computer surveillance. It was even being challenged by congress men in the 80’s that the computer surveillance of our phone call, purchases, credit card transactions, health information, employment history, travel and student records,was unconstitutional. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cAWmKpBeEz0

In 2001 the leading opponents of the patriot act, (Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle and Sen. Russ Feingold), argued that the Government had already been conducting wireless surveillance, before 9/11, which did not prevent the 9/11 attack and therefore was unnecessary and unconstitutional. But then both Democratic U.S. Senators, received anthrax in their offices from (USAMRIID), Fort Detrick, Maryland.

NSA Domestic Surveillance of Americans Began BEFORE 9/11 see here: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/10/nsa-asked-for-p/ and here; http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=abIV0cO64zJE and here; http://rawstory.com/news/2007/ATT_engineer_says_Bush_Administration_sought_1216.html

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 2:11 PM

Geez, many of you guys were all for this when Bush was President.

I wasn’t, and I’m not now. It’s funny to see many of the Tough On Terraists crowd online be all newly concerned about privacy.

Moesart on June 13, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Bush didn’t do this.

Wagthatdog on June 13, 2013 at 2:28 PM

These materials are not being used for political advantage

unclesmrgol on June 13, 2013 at 11:44 AM

and the IRS was just sorting data….

Wagthatdog on June 13, 2013 at 2:31 PM

Where were you?

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 2:06 PM

I was watching the county be torn apart by blind partisanship as many good people were being mislead into war while excepting morally repugnant policies that go against the principles that the Founding Fathers believed in and bled for.

Such as the approval of such unlawful activities as domestic spying, torture, unlawful renditions, indefinite detention with no charges or trial or the opportunity to see evidence against you, drones, assassinations and etc.

“No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.”

I could continue with the 4th amendment, bill of rights and etc, but no one cares about US laws or the constitution anymore.

People today only care about towing the party line and not about the ideals of our for fathers.

Hopefully some will begin to realize that you cant pick and chose which laws to break in order to give up our liberties for security.

Either the US is a nation of laws or its not. Its time the people decide.

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 2:38 PM

I was watching the county be torn apart by blind partisanship as many good people were being mislead into war while excepting morally repugnant policies that go against the principles that the Founding Fathers believed in and bled for.

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 2:38 PM

And judging by your comments, you were the only one that had any concerns…

Libertarian? Just guessing, because perfect memory and prefect judgment of other views and history is usually a dead giveaway.

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 2:58 PM

…Mislead into war…

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 2:38 PM

The only thing we were mislead on was not going soon enough. We should have moved into Iraq far more quickly. We should not have allowed the Turks to dictate our movement.

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 3:05 PM

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 2:38 PM

By the way. I think all that war stuff happened earlier than 2005. I dunno fer sure. Maybe I’m not remembering that right.

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 3:08 PM

It doesn’t matter if we like it or not. It will be jammed down our throats and enough people are in charge to make sure there is nothing we can do about it.

FireBlogger on June 13, 2013 at 3:37 PM

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 3:05 PM

Let me demonstrate how unlawful activities as domestic spying, torture, unlawful renditions, indefinite detention with no charges or trial or the opportunity to see evidence against you, drones, assassinations and etc. is all related.

In a speech in 2005, President Bush, justifying the invasion of Iraq, claimed that Abu Zubaydah revealed useful intelligence when enhanced interrogation was used.

U.S. officials stated that the allegations that Iraq and al-Qaeda were linked in the training of people on chemical weapons came from Abu Zubaydah.

And despite that the claims directly conflict with the reports of the F.B.I. agents who first interrogated Abu Zubaydah, Bush included statements made by Abu Zubaydah in regards to al Qaeda’s ability to obtain a dirty bomb to show a link between Iraq and al Qaeda. Including identification of two important suspects and information that allegedly helped foil a terrorist attack on American soil.

Zubaydah was used by Bush as an example for the benefits of waterboarding and other harsh interrogation technics.
In addition to justifying the use of illegal torture techniques, the Bush administration used Zubaydah’s capture as justification to accelerate its domestic spying program with the claim was that it would allow quick action on the phone numbers and addresses seized during Zubaydah’s capture.

But Now the US government has admitted that it has no case against Abu Zubaydah and that he was never associated with al Qaeda nor had any reliable information on Iraq.

In 2009 the US government admited that Abu Zubaydah just wanted the torture to stop so said what the tortures wanted to hear.

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 3:44 PM

U.S. government admits Abu Zubaydah was never a member of al Qaeda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Zubaydah#U.S._government_admits_Abu_Zubaydah_was_never_a_member_of_al_Qaeda

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 3:48 PM

You’re right. We should now just turn him over to Jordon so they can carry out his death sentence for the conviction in the Millennial bombing plot.

And we should let the Al Queezers that we caught as the result of his information go, because they aren’t really really Al Queezers.

Libertarian or Democrat?

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 5:45 PM

In fact, Abu Zabayda was the reason we caught Kalid Shaek Muhammed code name muktar – which we didn’t know until Zubayda spilled the beans.

I suppose innocents that aren’t part of Al Quaida always just know that that wacky KSM was the one that planned 9/11. “Yeah, he was just a guy from the neighborhood.”

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 5:51 PM

We should let KSM go because Abu Zabayda was never really really part of Al Quaida.

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 5:53 PM

I suppose innocents that aren’t part of Al Quaida always just know that that wacky KSM was the one that planned 9/11. “Yeah, he was just a guy from the neighborhood.”

oldroy on June 13, 2013 at 5:51 PM

On September, 2009, the U.S. government admitted that Abu Zubaydah had never been a member of al-Qaeda, nor is the Government detaining Petitioner based on any allegation that Petitioner views himself as part of al-Qaida as a matter of subjective personal conscience, ideology, or worldview, nor involved in the attacks on the African embassies in 1998, or the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001 nor had any information on Iraq.

The U.S. government has removed all “reference to Abu Zubaydah from the charge sheets and factual returns of other prisoners whose cases were being prosecuted. Abu Zubaydah has been linked to nearly 50 prisoners and former prisoners through media accounts and official Guantanamo Bay documents. Of these, approximately two dozen have either had their charges dropped or have been released from custody.” They have, essentially, “airbrushed Abu Zubaydah out of history.”

Zubaydah is mentioned over 50 times in the 9/11 Commission Report, and that his alleged torture testimony produced the foundation of the official account of 9/11.

The 9/11 Commission (falsely) called Zubaydah an “al Qaeda lieutenant.” The Joint Congressional inquiry did the same, calling him “al-Qa’ida leader Abu Zubaydah,” and the “Bin Ladin lieutenant captured in March 2002.” As late as 2006, the Justice Department’s Inspector General report on the 9/11 attacks called Zubaydah a “Bin Laden lieutenant.”

When Zubaydah was captured, in March 2002, U.S. government officials touted him as the biggest catch of the War on Terror, at least until the capture of Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM). FBI Director Robert Mueller stated that Zubaydah’s capture would help deter future attacks. White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said that Zubaydah could provide a treasure-trove of information about al-Qaeda. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld claimed that Zubaydah was “a man who knows of additional attacks”, who has “trained people to do this”, and was a big fish who had a fountain of knowledge.

Because we now know that Zubayda was never an al Qaeda operative, or even an al Qaeda associate, we are forced into the stunning realization that all of this was false. The questions that should arise from that realization include: How much of what we know about al Qaeda, and how much of the War on Terror, was built on the torture testimony of a man who clearly could not have known anything about al Qaeda at all?

JustTheFacts on June 13, 2013 at 7:46 PM

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