Snowden tells Chinese paper: Yes, the U.S. is hacking Chinese and Hong Kong computers

posted at 6:41 pm on June 12, 2013 by Allahpundit

Via CNN, a perfect illustration of why even pols with deep libertarian sympathies insist on reserving judgment about this guy. The most amazing thing about it is how gratuitously self-destructive it is to Snowden’s credibility. No one doubts that the U.S. is cyberspying on China; if the feds are capable of putting something like PRISM together, they’re capable of exploiting Chinese security vulnerabilities. Confirming for a Chinese paper that we’re doing what everyone knows we’re doing doesn’t even qualify as a “leak.” His whole point in his Guardian interview with Greenwald, though, was that he’s not out to hurt American interests, merely to clue his fellow citizens into something the government’s doing to them that should concern them. Yakking to a Chinese paper about U.S. cyberespionage proves that that’s not quite true. He’s also out to embarrass the U.S. by revealing stuff that’ll raise tensions with other nations, even if the stuff he’s revealing is supported by most Americans.

Then again, we already had an inkling of that when the Guardian revealed a few days ago amid the FISA/PRISM bombshells that Obama had asked his natsec team for a list of potential overseas cybertargets. There’s nothing scandalous about that. Preparing for war contingencies is what the commander-in-chief and the country’s military do. But it’s embarrassing to the U.S. to have it revealed and it’ll cause diplomatic headaches with other countries, and evidently that’s enough for Snowden. The “best-case” scenario for him telling Chinese media that we’re spying on China is that he figures that inflaming local sentiment against the U.S. will make it harder for Chinese/Hong Kong authorities to extradite him. Which is to say, instead of gratuitously humiliating America, in this scenario he’s merely betraying state semi-secrets to protect himself. Somewhere Obama’s watching this CNN clip and smiling because he knows that, like it or not, he’s locked in a battle for public opinion with Snowden right now. And everyone who saw this segment this afternoon is now thinking the same thing: If Snowden’s willing to tell China this, what else is he willing to them that he knows? Advantage: Obama.

Actually, I spoke too soon in saying that he merely revealed something everyone knew in confirming that the U.S. spies on China. He was quite a bit more specific than that:

The Post said Snowden provided documents, which the paper described as “unverified,” that he said showed U.S. cyber operations targeting a Hong Kong university, public officials and students in the Chinese city. The paper said the documents also indicate hacking attacks targeting mainland Chinese targets, but did not reveal information about Chinese military systems…

“We hack network backbones — like huge internet routers, basically — that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” Snowden said, according to the paper. “Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer.”

And here’s what our freedom-loving, Ron-Paul-supporting hero said about Putin’s fascist kingdom, which is using the idea of granting him asylum to score its own cheap propaganda points against the U.S.:

“Asked if he had been offered asylum by the Russian government, he said: ‘My only comment is that I am glad there are governments that refuse to be intimidated by great power,’” the Morning Post reported.

If there’s anyone who appreciates standing up to great government power, it’s Vladimir Putin. Imagine how heroic Snowden will look to middle America if he ends up essentially defecting to Russia. Incidentially, while Snowden’s comments to the Chinese paper were breaking this afternoon, Uncle Jimbo at Blackfive was posting his findings after looking into Snowden’s claim that he began training to join Special Forces back in 2003. That can’t be true, says UJ:

The 18 X-ray program is a way to go directly from the street to the Special Forces course. You first would attend basic and advanced individual training and then airborne school. Upon successful conclusion of those you head to Bragg for some prep training and the Special Forces Assessment and Selection course. If you pass all of those, then and only then do you start Special Forces training.

Mr. Snowden wasn’t even eligible for this program as he didn’t even graduate from High School.

Either Snowden left the military before ever realizing that he was ineligible for Special Forces or he deliberately exaggerated his ambitions in his Guardian interview. Add that to the other mysteries surrounding him, like how an IT guy managed to lasso such a large and diverse collection of documents. That’ll be the White House’s strategy against him going forward, I think — claiming on the one hand that data-mining helps thwart lots and lots of terror attacks and emphasizing on the other that Snowden’s story has holes in it and that he seems to enjoy sharing state secrets with China. Stay tuned.

Update: A succinct summary of Snowden’s comments to the Chinese paper from Dave Weigel:

Snowden’s problem is larger than domestic spycraft. It’s a problem with spycraft, period. The people circling him and now and dreaming of a “treason” case against him have to notice that.


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Color me unsurprised.
One of the disappointing aspects of this whole controversy has been that no matter which side of the privacy/security debate one is on, this guy deserves total condemnation, and has from the beginning.
If he was seriously concerned about trespassing on Americans’ privacy, he’d have gone to the congressional intel committees, not to friggin’ Glenn Greenwald.
Thanks to this bozo we’re now going to have a public debate in which we outline exactly for the bad guys where exactly our monitoring won’t go. Brilliant.
And he says he’s been concerned about people in government not being accountable to the law — then he runs off to Hong Kong. The guy could demonstrate his sincerity about legal accountability by getting his ass back to the US.
No one should be surprised that he’s selling us out to the Chinese.
Chuckles3 on June 12, 2013 at 7:30 PM

The bolded part is exactly my concern. But I agree with the rest of your comment as well.

bluegill on June 12, 2013 at 7:37 PM

If only he’d leaked his docs to the Washington Times, we might consider their content.

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 7:35 PM

Speak for yourself.

I’ll allow the evidence to speak for itself.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:38 PM

He’s loving this. This is his life now, in the spotlight. That’s what’s going on.

Paul-Cincy on June 12, 2013 at 7:35 PM

So what?

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 7:38 PM

I don’t understand why people keep bringing up this straw man. No one finds it hard to separate the two issues. No one has even hinted that they do.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 7:34 PM

Huh. Really?

And if you listen…being carried on the wind…is the sound of crying Paulbots that their master once again has been proven WRONG!

I’m not suprsied by this revelation: if this kid wanted to expose the program correctly why the heck didn’t he go to the House or Senate Intel commitees and do it in a closed session under oath?

Why didn’t. He go to the WasPost? NY Times? Hell even Michael Savage or Glen Beck would have given him oodles of airtime to flush the program into the light.

But all that aside (as bad as the program is, I don’t picture 1984 just yet) what ELSE has this mutt got in his head or on a USB drive and why wouldn’t I be surpised if he doesn’t dump it into the hands of hostle nations to the US?

This kid ain’t no hero: he’s a burned spy on the run and he’s going to be willing to eff ALL of us over in the name of some extreme political BS.

The only difference between him and Manning is Snowdens GF worked the pole, instead of…well you know…

BlaxPac on June 12, 2013 at 7:26 PM

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 7:39 PM

He’s loving this. This is his life now, in the spotlight. That’s what’s going on.

Paul-Cincy on June 12, 2013 at 7:35 PM

Loves knowing that every minute of any kind of freedom, or even breathing, could be his last? Sure.

VorDaj on June 12, 2013 at 7:39 PM

No one should be surprised that he’s selling us out to the Chinese.

Chuckles3 on June 12, 2013 at 7:30 PM

And unlike him, who’s obviously dumb, the Chinese won’t run to WP, NYT or The Guardian to imform them (well, us) that he leaked them important secrets :)..the truth is you can’t fix American stupid…no wonder he goes around portraying Putin as the last Mohican of the freedom fightes or something :)…I mean hiw stupid (or dishonest) can someone be really…

jimver on June 12, 2013 at 7:39 PM

No one should be surprised that he’s selling us out to the Chinese.

Chuckles3 on June 12, 2013 at 7:30 PM

I think the Saudis will always bid higher.

VorDaj on June 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

Exactly.

I don’t see why people would come on HotAir, a conservative site, and camp out, using faulty logic and giving erroneous agruments, pointing at other tenuously-argued examples to justify or minimize the current conversation.

Smearing the truth-teller is a political tool that has been used, and recorded in history, for millenia.

It’s demonic.

The only thing I can guess is that they must be paid to do it. OFA.

flicker on June 12, 2013 at 7:37 PM

CIA has developed tools to influence forums, puppet farming.

the_nile on June 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 7:39 PM

Is that supposed to prove something?

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

He’s loving this. This is his life now, in the spotlight. That’s what’s going on.

Paul-Cincy on June 12, 2013 at 7:35 PM

So what?

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 7:38 PM

I can’t separate his motivation from his actions.

Also, if you reveal covert intelligence methods, you make those methods ineffective.

Paul-Cincy on June 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

I am looking forward to the point where Snowden can say “Wake up sheeple!” and mean it.

triple on June 12, 2013 at 7:42 PM

And here’s what our freedom-loving, Ron-Paul-supporting hero said about Putin’s fascist kingdom, which is using the idea of granting him asylum to score its own cheap propaganda points against the U.S.:

“Asked if he had been offered asylum by the Russian government, he said: ‘My only comment is that I am glad there are governments that refuse to be intimidated by great power,’” the Morning Post reported.

The American Right loves “freedom” and “democracy” so much, they’ll support it even when it eventually results in communism.

ninjapirate on June 12, 2013 at 7:43 PM

Smearing the truth-teller is a political tool that has been used, and recorded in history, for millenia.

It’s demon Obamic.

Flicker on June 12, 2013 at 7:37 PM

VorDaj on June 12, 2013 at 7:43 PM

When you work at NSA you get it drilled into your head repeatedly about collecting on US citizens. Repeatedly your are advised as to all of the various laws and NSA directives covering this area and the ramifications if you do not follow these laws and directives. To believe that hundreds, if not thousands of NSA employees (and contractors), are willfully violating the law, and spying on their fellow citizens and possibly risking legal consequences, one must have zero faith in their fellow Americans.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

Thanks to this bozo we’re now going to have a public debate in which we outline exactly for the bad guys where exactly our monitoring won’t go. Brilliant.

As if they didn’t already know. WTF do you think Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar, for example, quit communicating electronically around 2005?

Listen, the Constitution does not get to be ignored because of national security. If the nation is under such a dire threat that the Constitutional rights of its people must be suspended, then ask Obama to declare martial law. Fortunately for me, I can obtain another passport and GTFO leaving you ‘fraidy-cat fascists asking ‘How much more liberty can we give up to get the bad man out from under our beds?’ to marinate in your own pathetic remnants.

Until then, MY RIGHTS mean something to me and I am unwilling to give them up for you.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

And unlike him, who’s obviously dumb, the Chinese won’t run to WP, NYT or The Guardian to imform them (well, us) that he leaked them important secrets :)..the truth is you can’t fix American stupid…no wonder he goes around portraying Putin as the last Mohican of the freedom fightes or something :)…I mean hiw stupid (or dishonest) can someone be really…

jimver on June 12, 2013 at 7:39 PM

He taunts Obama by thanking Putin for the offer.

the_nile on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

Well, since the Chinese, no doubt, knew we were doing this anyway, it’s no big deal right?

Isn’t that why Americans shouldn’t care about surveillance?

Having said that, this IS getting closer to treason.

So I sit, and see how this turns out.

WryTrvllr on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

So now are you all also going to fully embrace Michael Moore and denounce water boarding and Gitmo detention? You are all such anti-American and Ron Paul supporters who now mock people who still consider Islamic terrorism a serious threat. After all, many of you have become so dismissive of national security efforts to gather intelligence needed to thwart attacks.

Shame on you.

bluegill on June 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

We need public protests to return to a true and secure voting system. Without this no one can be honestly elected if the masters of all electronic devices don’t allow it.

flicker on June 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

Whether Snowden is saint or sinner, he shinned a big light on the roaches and that is by far the most important thing.

VorDaj on June 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

To believe that hundreds, if not thousands of NSA employees (and contractors), are willfully violating the law, and spying on their fellow citizens and possibly risking legal consequences, one must have zero faith in their fellow Americans.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

IRS!

the_nile on June 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

I can’t separate his motivation from his actions.

Well I am more concerned with the motives of those who have an army, a navy, an air force and a police/national security apparatus at their disposal than some geek in Hong Kong.

Also, if you reveal covert intelligence methods, you make those methods ineffective.

Paul-Cincy on June 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

If they are being used to spy on and control the American people then why on earth would you want them to be more effective?

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 7:47 PM

So now are you all also going to fully embrace Michael Moore and denounce water boarding and Gitmo detention? You are all such anti-American and Ron Paul supporters who now mock people who still consider Islamic terrorism a serious threat. After all, many of you have become so dismissive of national security efforts to gather intelligence needed to thwart attacks.

Shame on you.

bluegill on June 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

We can pick and choose.

the_nile on June 12, 2013 at 7:48 PM

So. Why is this any different than negotiating with the North Vietnamese as a Naval Reserve officer, or giving the Chinese some missile secrets as a POTUS?

oldroy on June 12, 2013 at 7:49 PM

I couldn’t believe the IRS was using poltical names and information to punish conservatives before a critical election…but they did. And no one has been fired yet.

d1carter on June 12, 2013 at 7:49 PM

To believe that hundreds, if not thousands of NSA employees (and contractors), are willfully violating the law, and spying on their fellow citizens and possibly risking legal consequences, one must have zero faith in their fellow Americans.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

All it takes is one and I have zero faith in a lot of my fellow Americans, including you.

VorDaj on June 12, 2013 at 7:50 PM

Having said that, this IS getting closer to treason.

WryTrvllr on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

Who’s treason exactly? The treason of those who swore to uphold the constitution and are not doing so, or the guy who is pointing out that uncomfortable fact?

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 7:50 PM

oldroy on June 12, 2013 at 7:49 PM

Heh.

notropis on June 12, 2013 at 7:50 PM

For those Putin haters… Russia has a flat tax rate… when will our Freedom and Democracy give us that?

ninjapirate on June 12, 2013 at 7:50 PM

I can’t separate his motivation from his actions.

Paul-Cincy on June 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

Unless you can read minds, you don’t know his motivations. You can only guess from your own world view. So don’t pretend you do. Unless…

You work for DARPA?

(I swear! The goat had it coming.)

flicker on June 12, 2013 at 7:51 PM

Is that supposed to prove something?

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

IMO it’s a good example of an inability to separate the message from the messenger or the channels through which it was delivered.

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 7:51 PM

When you work at NSA you get it drilled into your head repeatedly about collecting on US citizens. Repeatedly your are advised as to all of the various laws…

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

Do they also drill into the head of NSA employees that they aren’t supposed to be spending hours everyday looking at child p0rn?

Report: NSA, Pentagon officials linked to child p0rn

Boston Globe reports dozens of NSA, DARPA, and other Pentagon workers downloaded child p0rn, a federal crime, but not all were prosecuted.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:52 PM

Who’s treason exactly? The treason of those who swore to uphold the constitution and are not doing so, or the guy who is pointing out that uncomfortable fact?

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 7:50 PM

I think it can be both.

oldroy on June 12, 2013 at 7:53 PM

Also, if you reveal covert intelligence methods, you make those methods ineffective.

Paul-Cincy on June 12, 2013 at 7:41 PM

Good. The NSA does not need unchecked access to everything.

But wait, don’t they have the secret FISA court? Oversight!

Yeah, but the FISA court has an approval rating of.. 100%. It’s not oversight if they never say no.

triple on June 12, 2013 at 7:54 PM

the_nile on June 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

Not the same. Verifying tax status is legal; choosing who you verify can get into gray areas. Also, the IRS has a history of political bent. NSA does not.

Collecting on US citizens by NSA is illegal. And every NSA employee damn sure knows it.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:54 PM

IMO it’s a good example of an inability to separate the message from the messenger or the channels through which it was delivered.

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 7:51 PM

What are you talking about? He even wrote a paragraph pointing out that he separated the two. It seems to me that the only one who can’t separate the two is you. Every time someone says something about the messenger, you defend the message.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 7:54 PM

So now are you all also going to fully embrace Michael Moore and denounce water boarding and Gitmo detention? You are all such anti-American and Ron Paul supporters who now mock people who still consider Islamic terrorism a serious threat. After all, many of you have become so dismissive of national security efforts to gather intelligence needed to thwart attacks.

Shame on you.

bluegill on June 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

I’m a Ron Paul supporter? Who knew? I can assure you that your assertion would come as a great surprise to Ron Paul and The Paulistinians considering the FACT that I am a well-known RP critic.

Ron Paul: All Aboard! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaa! Mental Wounds Still Screaming! Driving Me Insane I’m Going Off The Rails On My Crazy Train! (And I Want To Take You Along For The Ride)

And, here is a menu of other posts on Ron Paul you will find on my blog:

Ground Control to Major Ron: Take Your Geritol And Put Your Tinfoil Hat On

You are absolutely P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:56 PM

Who’s treason exactly? The treason of those who swore to uphold the constitution and are not doing so, or the guy who is pointing out that uncomfortable fact?

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 7:50 PM

I think it can be both.

oldroy on June 12, 2013 at 7:53 PM

I agree. The guy may be a traitor but that doesn’t alter what the government is doing.

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 7:56 PM

Shame on you.

bluegill on June 12, 2013 at 7:45 PM

Who let the people in who do these attacks? Who’s diversity visa program is it?

Stop yanking your own chain so much, you’ll go blind.

WryTrvllr on June 12, 2013 at 7:57 PM

Collecting on US citizens by NSA is illegal. And every NSA employee damn sure knows it.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:54 PM

So is viewing, gathering, collecting, disseminating and storing child pornography, but that didn’t stop some at the NSA from doing it anyway.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:57 PM

He’s loving this. This is his life now, in the spotlight. That’s what’s going on.
Paul-Cincy on June 12, 2013 at 7:35 PM</blockquote

His 5 minutes…the Kardashians managed better :)

jimver on June 12, 2013 at 7:57 PM

Wow, some sense here in the comments. Where did you come from?

bluegill on June 12, 2013 at 7:31 PM

Don’t get too excited. I don’t agree to this kids method OR his reasoning…and don’t expect me to cry salty tears if he finds himself catching a Hellfire in his hip pocket.

The program at first blush just seems to be a huge efficent datamin spider: I can be fickle about the Verizon logs, et all but of course this info along with the IRS kerfluffle is really bothersome…but I digress.

Right now, this kid is running along with a aweful lot of intel on the methods and operations of one of the most Black Op centers this country has…if the Agency wants to bring his head back to the States in a basket, I’m okay with it.

BlaxPac on June 12, 2013 at 7:57 PM

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:52 PM

Lame. That’s an individual. We’re talking about institutionalizing lawbreaking as a policy.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:58 PM

Collecting on US citizens by NSA is illegal. And every NSA employee damn sure knows it.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:54 PM

Releasing confidential tax information is a felony and every IRS employee damn sure knows it.

Of course, that didn’t stop them.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:58 PM

Nice little campaign of personal destruction you’ve got going on here, Hot Air.

But no matter how much you try to make him so, Snowden is not the center of this story. The rising American police state is.

sartana on June 12, 2013 at 7:59 PM

Lame. That’s an individual. We’re talking about institutionalizing lawbreaking as a policy.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:58 PM

It was more than one individual.

As for institutionalising lawbreaking, I point you to the IRS, the DOJ, the EPA, and other alphabets.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:59 PM

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:58 PM

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:58 PM

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:00 PM

Add that to the other mysteries surrounding him, like how an IT guy managed to lasso such a large and diverse collection of documents.

This is a joke, right? Right?

I’m shocked that a data administrator had access to data!

faraway on June 12, 2013 at 8:00 PM

‘At the time of the Founding, Americans despised the British use of the so-called ‘general warrants’—warrants not grounded upon a sworn oath of a specific infraction by a particular individual, and thus no limited in scope and application.

Solving unsolved crimes is a noble objective, but it occupies a lower place in the American pantheon of noble objectives than the protection of our people from suspicionless law-enforcement searches. The Fourth Amendment must prevail.’

- Justice Antoin Scalia, dissent, Maryland v King, 2013

If such is true about unsolved crimes, it is more than true for crimes that have yet to take place.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:00 PM

Lame. That’s an individual. We’re talking about institutionalizing lawbreaking as a policy.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:58 PM

IRS targeting conservatives ring a bell?

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 8:01 PM

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:59 PM

Do you really not understand the difference?

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:01 PM

I think some people are convinced the government is always in the right because.. they’re the government. We’re the good guys!

But that’s not always true.

Our constitution is sound. The theory of america is sound. It’s the execution, it’s what happens when you put flawed people in an otherwise good system, and that screws it all up.

At that point, the system no longer works for us. The system ends up hurting the very people it’s designed to protect.

Which is why I’m thankful for “traitors” like Snowden, people who are capable of realizing the systems designed to protect america go against what this country actually stands for.

triple on June 12, 2013 at 8:02 PM

‘Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us? The constitutional theory is that we the people are the sovereigns, the state and federal officials only our agents. We who have the final word can speak softly or angrily. We can seek to challenge and annoy, as we need not stay docile and quiet.’

– Justice William O Douglas, Colten v Kentucky, 407 U.S. 104 (1972)

‘We are rapidly entering the age of no privacy, where everyone is open to surveillance at all times; where there are no secrets from government … These examples and many others demonstrate an alarming trend whereby the privacy and dignity of our citizens is being whittled away by sometimes imperceptible steps. Taken individually, each step may be of little consequence. But when viewed as a whole, there begins to emerge a society quite unlike any we have seen — a society in which government may intrude into the secret regions of man’s life at will.’

– Justice William O Douglas, Osborn v United States, 385 U.S. 341 (1966)

‘We must realize that today’s Establishment is the New George III. Whether it will continue to adhere to his tactics, we do not know. If it does, the redress, honored in tradition, is also revolution … Big Brother in the form of an increasingly powerful government and in an increasingly powerful private sector will pile the records high with reasons why privacy should give way to national security, to law and order, to efficiency of operation, to scientific advancement and the like.’

– Justice William O Douglas, Points of Rebellion, (1969)

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:02 PM

I couldn’t believe the IRS was using poltical names and information to punish conservatives before a critical election…but they did. And no one has been fired yet.

d1carter on June 12, 2013 at 7:49 PM

To believe that hundreds, if not thousands of NSA employees (and contractors), are willfully violating the law, and spying on their fellow citizens and possibly risking legal consequences, one must have zero faith in their fellow Americans.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

All it takes is one and I have zero faith in a lot of my fellow Americans, including you.

VorDaj on June 12, 2013 at 7:50 PM

Americans by and large are unaccustomed to Political Personality Cults and the loyalty these cults generate.

But we do have some experience…and there’s Europe,China etc.

Obama has established his personality cult where civil employee loyalty resides either to him…his party or basic careerism which is based in self interest.

I think this is what we find in the agencies of the executive.

The apparatchik at every federal civil level have got to be experiencing some discomfort generated by the obvious conflicts.

workingclass artist on June 12, 2013 at 8:03 PM

Do you really not understand the difference?

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:01 PM

Yes. I just don’t buy your argument that the NSA would never, ever, ever engage in illegal activity.

We have a Constitution. I DEMAND that it be followed.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:03 PM

We may all end up being traitors if things keep going the way they have been for the last few decades. Well…those of us who aren’t willing to inform for an extra bread ration anyway.

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 8:04 PM

Who’s treason exactly? The treason of those who swore to uphold the constitution and are not doing so, or the guy who is pointing out that uncomfortable fact?

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 7:50 PM

I fully recognize we don’t know what this guy is doing. That’s why I sit and wait. I don’t trust anything anymore. I expect to be lied to on this end, and manipulated, by politicians and their lapdogs in the MSM as well. Anything to protect O’bozo.

But, as I said, if he is giving secrets to the Chinese, that becomes treason.

We will probably never know.

I still recognize he did a GREAT service to America. And I know this administration will try to demonize him. So he still gets the benefit of the doubt from me.

WryTrvllr on June 12, 2013 at 8:04 PM

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:44 PM

+++++++

BoxHead1 on June 12, 2013 at 8:04 PM

http://therightscoop.com/must-watch-parents-of-fallen-seal-team-six-member-tell-fox-news-sons-life-endangered-by-obama-administration-leaks/

if the Agency wants to bring his head back to the States in a basket, I’m okay with it.

BlaxPac on June 12, 2013 at 7:57 PM

What was it you were saying?

MontanaMmmm on June 12, 2013 at 8:05 PM

‘Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.’

– George Washington, 7 January 1790

‘Guard with jealous attention liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.’

– Patrick Henry, 5 June 1788

‘The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.’

– Patrick Henry

‘We base all our experiments on the capacity of mankind for self-government.’

– James Madison

‘I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of society but the people themselves and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform them.’

– James Madison

‘The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.’

– Albert Camus

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:06 PM

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:02 PM

I didn’t see the parts in those quote where they believed that an individual has the right to arbitrarily release classified information based on his own personal believes and as a result possible cause future damage to his country and fellow citizens.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:06 PM

Collecting on US citizens by NSA is illegal. And every NSA employee damn sure knows it.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 7:54 PM

Releasing confidential tax information is a felony and every IRS employee damn sure knows it.

Of course, that didn’t stop them.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:58 PM

And don’t forget:

Obama won every election with releasing legally-sealed documents. Jack Ryan’s child custody case?

Suuuure. Our info is safe with the NSA and the CIA being comprised of paragons of morality and ethics and all.

flicker on June 12, 2013 at 8:06 PM

So he still gets the benefit of the doubt from me.

WryTrvllr on June 12, 2013 at 8:04 PM

He doesn’t get that from me because I do not care about him in the slightest. Who he is, is essentially meaningless. What the government is doing is what worries me.

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 8:07 PM

Wow, some sense here in the comments. Where did you come from?

bluegill on June 12, 2013 at 7:31 PM

B8tch was my first post incorrect ?

CW on June 12, 2013 at 8:07 PM

“We hack network backbones — like huge internet routers, basically — that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” Snowden said, according to the paper.

That is what I suspected all along. People are getting too caught up the PRISM which is just one part of it, The real harvesting occurs off the backbone, perhaps through CISCO equipment. This explains why the Chinese is trying diversify. I always thought the number one target was China, not Jihadist who insignificant in the grand scheme of things unless you let lots of them into your country. I don’t anything Snowden has revealed to the Chinese is something they don’t already know is happening. The only damage is the public relations damage it might do with the U.S. standing before the Chinese public who may not be aware of this and will be used by Chinese nationalist to stoke up Anti-Americanism.

The truth is though that what the NSA is doing to American citizens is still probably unconstitutional but we won;t know what is going until we get an independent study / investigation of the NSA by people with electrical engineering, programming and IT backgrounds, who also have some kind of law background, etc. The people in the independent must be chosen by people and groups not associated to the federal government.

William Eaton on June 12, 2013 at 8:08 PM

He doesn’t get that from me because I do not care about him in the slightest. Who he is, is essentially meaningless. What the government is doing is what worries me.

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 8:07 PM

Expect the Gov’t to try to paint him as crazy next.

WryTrvllr on June 12, 2013 at 8:10 PM

Just as I said after I first saw him interviewed, he’s an antiAmerican pos. And, a dumb one at that. Just track him down fast–the faster he’s arrested and rotting in prison, the better.

kit9 on June 12, 2013 at 8:12 PM

What are you talking about? He even wrote a paragraph pointing out that he separated the two. It seems to me that the only one who can’t separate the two is you. Every time someone says something about the messenger, you defend the message.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 7:54 PM

He begins by stating that people who suspect the government is spying on its citizens have been “proven wrong” by new revelations suggesting Snowden holds anti-American sentiments.

I can’t think of a non sequitur that more aptly demonstrates the failure to distinguish message from messenger.

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:13 PM

Do you really not understand the difference?

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:01 PM

Yes. I just don’t buy your argument that the NSA would never, ever, ever engage in illegal activity.

We have a Constitution. I DEMAND that it be followed.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:03 PM

I completely agree. I mean at the very least the fact that Snowden has apparently broken the law by stealing and releasing documents sort of shows that it can and will be done.

And Snowden hasn’t even cashed his check yet (sacrastically allowing that he did it for the money). But if you can believe an underappreciated low-level clerk at a court house leaking life-changing, election-changing docs for a cash bonus, what more can we expect from the NSA?

flicker on June 12, 2013 at 8:13 PM

I didn’t see the parts in those quote where they believed that an individual has the right to arbitrarily release classified information based on his own personal believes and as a result possible cause future damage to his country and fellow citizens.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:06 PM

“A local militia, believed to be a terrorist organization, attacked the property of private citizens today at our nation’s busiest port in Boston. Although no one was injured in the attack, a large quantity of merchandise, mostly tea, considered to be valuable to its owners and loathsome to the perpetrators, was destroyed. The terrorists, dressed in disguise as native Indians and apparently intoxicated, were able to escape into the night with the help of local citizens who harbor these fugitives and conceal their identities from the authorities.”

sharrukin on June 12, 2013 at 8:14 PM

I didn’t see the parts in those quote where they believed that an individual has the right to arbitrarily release classified information based on his own personal believes and as a result possible cause future damage to his country and fellow citizens.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:06 PM

That was not their intent. I don’t care about Snowden. I care about the Surveillance State and MY rights and civil liberties. Those quotes – and the ones that follow – deal directly with that.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:14 PM

Oh, I forgot….

LAME.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:14 PM

And we know the IRS is politically targeting conservatives.

flicker on June 12, 2013 at 8:14 PM

Triple where’s that link??????????????????

CW on June 12, 2013 at 8:14 PM

Just as I said after I first saw him interviewed, he’s an antiAmerican pos. And, a dumb one at that. Just track him down fast–the faster he’s arrested and rotting in prison, the better.

kit9 on June 12, 2013 at 8:12 PM

Are you at all interested in seeing what other documents he might have?

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:15 PM

Releasing confidential tax information is a felony and every IRS employee damn sure knows it.

Of course, that didn’t stop them.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 7:58 PM

And NOBODY will be punished. They will be promoted. LIB.

VegasRick on June 12, 2013 at 8:17 PM

The American Right loves “freedom” and “democracy” so much, they’ll support it even when it eventually results in communism.

ninjapirate on June 12, 2013 at 7:43 PM

The American Right and Left unfortunately love “safety” and “security” so much, they’ll support it even when it eventually results in tyranny.

MadisonConservative on June 12, 2013 at 8:18 PM

He begins by stating that people who suspect the government is spying on its citizens have been “proven wrong” by new revelations suggesting Snowden holds anti-American sentiments.

I can’t think of a non sequitur that more aptly demonstrates the failure to distinguish message from messenger.

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:13 PM

Proven wrong about whether Snowden holds anti-American sentiments, not whether the NSA is spying. See. You are the one who can’t separate the message from the messenger. That comment didn’t even mention the message until it said “But all that aside…” That’s typically something you say when you want people to know that you can separate one thing from another. And somehow you see the opposite of the words on your screen.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 8:20 PM

‘[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that [the] people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms…The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.’

– Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col William S Smith, 1787

‘Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety.’

– Benjamin Franklin

‘A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares about more than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.’

-– John Stuart Mill, writing on the Civil War, 1862

‘Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.’

-– Daniel Webster

‘Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government’s purposes are beneficent…The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.’

– Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v United States, 277 U.S. 438 (1928)

‘The progress of science in furnishing the government with means of espionage is not likely to stop with wire tapping. Ways may some day be developed by which the government, without removing papers from secret drawers, can reproduce them in court, and by which it will be enabled to expose to a jury the most intimate occurrences of the home. Advances in the psychic and related sciences may bring means of exploring unexpressed beliefs, thoughts and emotions. ‘That places the liberty of every man in the hands of every petty officer’ was said by James Otis of much lesser intrusions than these. To Lord Camden a far slighter intrusion seemed ‘subversive of all the comforts of society.’ Can it be that the Constitution affords no protection against such invasions of individual security?’

– Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v United States, 277 U.S. 438 (1928)

‘The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms.’

– Justice William O Douglas, Public utilities Commission v Pollak, 343 U.S. 451, 467 (1952)

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:20 PM

Are you at all interested in seeing what other documents he might have?

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:15 PM

Like I said, someone attacks the messenger, and you rush to defend the message. Who can’t separate the two again?

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 8:20 PM

Just as I said after I first saw him interviewed, he’s an antiAmerican pos. And, a dumb one at that. Just track him down fast–the faster he’s arrested and rotting in prison, the better.

kit9 on June 12, 2013 at 8:12 PM

So we have that going for us, which is nice. Screw that, all the scumbags that brought barky to us and now defend what his filthy admin does to it’s citizens should rot immediatelly.

VegasRick on June 12, 2013 at 8:21 PM

True the Vote.

Politically, nothing can be done without an honest vote.

And you can’t have an honest vote without recounts.

And you can’t have an honest recount without paper.

If anything, we now know the partisanship and electronic capability of the government in power.

Card ballot. Blue fingers. Voter ID.

flicker on June 12, 2013 at 8:22 PM

Proven wrong about whether Snowden holds anti-American sentiments, not whether the NSA is spying.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 8:20 PM

Right. Because that’s how “Paulbots” are defined–as people who worship America-loving heroes–and not as people who suspect the government of spying.

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:25 PM

‘[W]hat country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that [the] people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms…The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.’

– Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col William S Smith, 1787

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:20 PM

I find it odd that the same folks defending the nsa spying have been trying to take our guns away from us. They are scum. D’s and r’s.

VegasRick on June 12, 2013 at 8:26 PM

I find it odd that the same folks defending the nsa spying have been trying to take our guns away from us. They are scum. D’s and r’s.

VegasRick on June 12, 2013 at 8:26 PM

I know what you mean. I was surprised by Ed’s support of the ruling in the DNA database case. Of course, Ed is against a national gun registry. So, there’s no inconsistency there. /

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:28 PM

Bluegill- b8tch you gonna answer ? you trollish yellow back.

CW on June 12, 2013 at 8:29 PM

Right. Because that’s how “Paulbots” are defined–as people who worship America-loving heroes–and not as people who suspect the government of spying.

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:25 PM

I don’t see how any sane person could think that comment was saying this proves the NSA isn’t spying. Who would even say that? It makes no sense. Your “proof” makes no sense.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 8:30 PM

Two words: Chinese spy.

michaelo on June 12, 2013 at 8:30 PM

I know what you mean. I was surprised by Ed’s support of the ruling in the DNA database case. Of course, Ed is against a national gun registry. So, there’s no inconsistency there. /

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:28 PM

Ed’s libertarian stripe often clashes with his occasional big government fancies.

MadisonConservative on June 12, 2013 at 8:31 PM

China’s hacking us, and we’re hacking them.

The government can watch everything we do, and we can…oh.

Guess which I give a s**t about.

MadisonConservative on June 12, 2013 at 8:33 PM

Like I said, someone attacks the messenger, and you rush to defend the message. Who can’t separate the two again?

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 8:20 PM

I don’t think you understand what “separate the message from the messenger” means.

I asked a question. I didn’t “defend the message”. I want to know if his desire to have Snowden silenced derives from his regarding Snowden to be an “anti-American pos”. (If true, it might be a case of failing to separate the message from the messenger. Follow-up questions would be needed to confirm it.)

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:35 PM

Too much paranoia on this board for my liking. All those quotes are great…Now back to the real world. Technology is what it is; trying to prevent its legal use to defend the US and yes, the Constitution is foolish. And nothing so far has revealed any illegal activities by the NSA.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:36 PM

sadly I think were beginning to see this man’s true motives

tom2789 on June 12, 2013 at 8:36 PM

I don’t think you understand what “separate the message from the messenger” means.

I asked a question. I didn’t “defend the message”. I want to know if his desire to have Snowden silenced derives from his regarding Snowden to be an “anti-American pos”. (If true, it might be a case of failing to separate the message from the messenger. Follow-up questions would be needed to confirm it.)

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:35 PM

I understand exactly what you’re doing. In one form or another I keep seeing people call Snowden a traitor and some nut asks, “Do you hate liberty?” Just asking questions…pfft.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 8:37 PM

Triple what? No link? I am soooo surprised.

CW on June 12, 2013 at 8:41 PM

I understand exactly what you’re doing. In one form or another I keep seeing people call Snowden a traitor and some nut asks, “Do you hate liberty?” Just asking questions…pfft.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 8:37 PM

I see. Then perhaps you should be responding to their posts, yes?

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:44 PM

Yes, the U.S. is hacking Chinese and Hong Kong computers

If we aren’t we are failing.

If the Chinese did not know it they are failing.

CW on June 12, 2013 at 6:50 PM

Yeah, pretty much. My first thought was “Snowden states the obvious”. I’d be more shocked to learn that someone ISN’T spying.

kim roy on June 12, 2013 at 8:45 PM

I see. Then perhaps you should be responding to their posts, yes?

EddieC on June 12, 2013 at 8:44 PM

I responded to one. One is tedious enough.

Ronnie on June 12, 2013 at 8:46 PM

It matters who Snowden is and why he did it.

At this stage it’s increasingly clear he’s a traitor.

And the evidence is mounting he’s been working with the Chicoms — whether wittingly or not.

Raquel Pinkbullet on June 12, 2013 at 8:49 PM

Too much paranoia on this board for my liking. All those quotes are great…Now back to the real world. Technology is what it is; trying to prevent its legal use to defend the US and yes, the Constitution is foolish. And nothing so far has revealed any illegal activities by the NSA.

Aplombed on June 12, 2013 at 8:36 PM

The Constitution and the law ARE my profession ‘in the real world.’

As for your opinion that the ‘Constitution is foolish,’ with all due respect, go fvck yourself.

Resist We Much on June 12, 2013 at 8:50 PM

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