Zimmerman and the wheels of justice

posted at 12:31 pm on June 2, 2013 by Jazz Shaw

I know it probably seems as if I’ve developed a bit of a dim view of the justice system of late, though I’m really trying to maintain a positive outlook. I previously expressed some doubts about precisely who our system of rights and due process are serving with regards to Lois Lerner. That situation struck me as a person who had been accused of no crime, but who was taking advantage of every nook and cranny of the justice system to thwart even the possibility of future charges as if she already were. The legal beagles, including my friend and attorney Doug Mataconis, have had their say on it and apparently that’s the way of the world in our courts. But how about a different case where someone already has been accused of a crime, such as that of George Zimmerman in Florida?

I find it improbable beyond words that you’re not already familiar with the case of Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin, so I won’t waste your time with an update of the whole affair here. But there was a recent revelation as we approach the start of the trial which definitely caught my attention. It involved a request on the part of the defense to introduce certain items into evidence which would seem to paint Martin as something other than the Skittles purchasing pedestrian the state claims he was.

Lawyers for George Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the killing of Trayvon Martin, will be barred from mentioning Mr. Martin’s marijuana use, history of fights or high school suspension during opening arguments in Mr. Zimmerman’s trial, which begins June 10.

At a hearing Tuesday in a Seminole County court, Circuit Judge Debra Steinberg Nelson denied a string of defense motions concerning evidence that was intended to portray Mr. Martin as a troubled teenager with a propensity for fighting and an interest in guns. Prosecutors argued that such evidence had nothing to do with Mr. Martin’s death.

All of this background material – listed at the link – will be inadmissible, at least during opening statements and perhaps for the duration of the trial, depending upon how the prosecution seeks to play their hand. My immediate reaction was to wonder how that happened? What of the importance of offering the defense every opportunity to portray their client in the best light, and of the bedrock assumption that each defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty? Is not a history of potentially violent and illegal activity relevant to how Martin might have reacted that day?

There are postings from social media containing very disturbing admissions, texts and e-mails. Is this not evidence? Should this not be available to the jury if they are to give the defendant every chance and the assumption of innocence? Once again, according to Doug, apparently not.

The question, though, is whether evidence like this should be admissible at trial.1

Perhaps the most important thing to understand about how trials work, especially criminal trials, is that not all “evidence” is admissible evidence. Not every piece of information that might somehow be tangentially relevant to a criminal case2 is admissible at trial. The classic example that most lay people are familiar with is hearsay evidence, which essentially refers to evidence of statements made outside of a courtroom setting that are, for one reason or another, not subject to cross-examination. There are literally dozens of exceptions to the hearsay rule that allow such statements to be admitted into evidence under the right circumstances, but the general rule is that if a party wishes to present evidence of something that someone who isn’t available to testify, for whatever reason, then that evidence is inadmissible unless an exception applies.

In the Zimmerman case, though, we’re dealing with the somewhat more complicated issue of character evidence. Quite obviously, Zimmerman’s hoped, and if given the opportunity during the trial still hope, to use evidence about Trayvon Martin’s past to establish that he was a violent person, thus reinforcing the defense theory of the case that Zimmerman was attacked by a young guy who he saw roaming around his neighborhood. To many lay people, including many people that I discussed this issue with on Twitter and Facebook yesterday evening, it seems self-evident that any evidence that shows that Trayvon Martin was a “thug” is relevant to Zimmerman’s defense and therefore ought to be something that the jury should be able to consider. As a general rule, evidence regarding the character of the victim, or the Defendant, is considered inadmissible unless it somehow becomes relevant to the actual facts at issue in the case. The most well-known example of this is the body of law that has determined, largely correctly, that the sexual history of a woman claiming that she was raped is inadmissible in a rape trial.

(For the record, I was one of the “lay people” on Twitter referenced above. It went on for quite a while.)

It’s a long explanation, so you should click through to get the entire thing, but I don’t care for it a bit. It seems to me, particularly in the two cases we are drawing parallels between here, that there is a rather large, gray area when it comes to when the rules do or do not apply in giving the accused the benefit of the doubt. We’re talking about something that happened with (I believe) no other first hand witnesses. There is precious little to go by in terms of hard evidence to determine what happened during the altercation aside from one sided phone records. How is background information like this not applicable?

But I suppose the legal community has once again spoken and some of us laypersons are simply too dense to understand the law. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree or like it.


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As an Orlandoan, I’m anxiously awaiting the verdict….and the riots by you know who REGARDLESS of the outcome.

Hawkerflyer on June 2, 2013 at 12:37 PM

Say doesn’t that Trayvon kid look like someone we know, maybe a father figure?

D-fusit on June 2, 2013 at 12:39 PM

It’s disgusting that a thug will not have his background brought into evidence, yet a man being crucified for political reasons can have his entire life brought out.

There’s a special place in h3ll for Judges like the one in this case, and for those who would seek to put their thumb on the scales of justice to score points with the diversity bullies and PC police.

TKindred on June 2, 2013 at 12:40 PM

A sad case. Sadder still because truth is a double-edged sword. The defense has its work cut out.

LizardLips on June 2, 2013 at 12:40 PM

We’re talking about something that happened with (I believe) no other first hand witnesses.

I’m not sure that’s correct. It’s been a while since I reviewed the entire case, but I do believe there were first hand witnesses for at least part of the incident. I somewhat remember there being a witness who described a scene where Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. I may be wrong.

joejm65 on June 2, 2013 at 12:40 PM

Say doesn’t that Trayvon kid look like someone we know, maybe a father figure?

D-fusit on June 2, 2013 at 12:39 PM

Seen him on Springer?

Limerick on June 2, 2013 at 12:40 PM

this isn’t too surprising. in a rape trial the victim’s past sexual history isn’t ever allowed. but since self-defense is an affirmative defense it seems that some leeway should in place. poor Zimmerman. he’s being sacrificed for political correctness.

chasdal on June 2, 2013 at 12:41 PM

♫♪ I’ve been working on the railroad all the live long day ♫♪

BoxHead1 on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM

From the article:

After all, even the worst criminal on the planet could theoretically become a victim under the right circumstances. Objectively, the only relevant issues in the Zimmerman case involve what happened that night.

And that really is that. For example, people who are murdered while in jail still by another inmate still receive justice before the courts (murdered by a prison guard is another matter). If it were admissable to smear the character on the victim we would only convict crimes committed by people we don’t like. And when it becomes more about emotions and whether jurors identify with the victim or with the defendant thats when predjudices, about gender, race or class can influence the juries verdict. Which is why, of course, O’Meara has released this information to the 24 hour media in order to pollute the jury pool. So I’m not sure why you’re concerned Jazz. All of this information is out there and the Jury pool knows what O’Meara wants them to know.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM

As long as they find jurors that don’t know of the case and were not fed all that BS like the picture of Mr. Martin that was at least a couple years ago. ….

good luck. The race bating leftist media already made it nearly impossible for Zimmerman to get a fair trial.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Be interesting to see how the prosecution intends to explain away Zimmerman’s injuries?

And will they continue to show pictures of Martin when he was twelve years old?

GarandFan on June 2, 2013 at 12:43 PM

pollute the jury pool.
libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Too funny . You pukes have done that since day one. Oh and since I have not seen you in a while . F uck off.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:45 PM

And will they continue to show pictures of Martin when he was twelve years old?

GarandFan on June 2, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Be certain. That will be fixed at trial.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:45 PM

Much as I believe that Zimmerman is being prosecuted for purely political purposes, the fact is that this isn’t even a “he said, she said.” This is a “he said, he’s dead.” The only person who will be allowed to testify is Zimmerman – Trayvon’s not going to be saying much. So the judge will be very careful in what will be allowed into evidence for the defense, in terms of attacking the victim’s character.

notropis on June 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM

ape Trayvon.

Seven Seas on June 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM

Really? Gtfo.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:47 PM

How is background information like this not applicable?

Its a complex rubric, so study it slowly:

If the victim is black and the defendant is white, any evidence negatively impacting the victim shall be inadmissible.

BobMbx on June 2, 2013 at 12:47 PM

As an Orlandoan, I’m anxiously awaiting the verdict….and the riots by you know who REGARDLESS of the outcome.

Hawkerflyer on June 2, 2013 at 12:37 PM

This. Wanna know when the uppity level in your area is reaching critical mass? Go ask an Asian shopkeeper in the area. They’ll tell you straight out if they don’t have to look over their shoulder for PC snitches and know you aren’t a fink yourself.

MelonCollie on June 2, 2013 at 12:48 PM

And if GZ were somehow connected to some hard core RW group that would never come out in the trial. Little trayvon was a dope smoking punk. I’m sorry he’s dead but Zimmerman acted in self defense.

VegasRick on June 2, 2013 at 12:48 PM

Character evidence about Trayvon will be inadmissible unless the prosecution opens the door by bringing it up. Zimmerman knew nothing about Trayvon’s character except what he observed with his own eyes. That information is admissible.

The theory is that Zimmerman should not be convicted or acquitted just because Trayvon was a teenage angel or thug. Zimmerman is claiming self defense. The test is whether a reasonable person would have been in fear for their life under those circumstances.

myiq2xu on June 2, 2013 at 12:48 PM

Why is it that someone accused of rape can tear down the character of their accuser, yet Zimmerman is not allowed to show the violent background of Martin? The prosecutor in this case is an awful and despicable person, but I’m also starting to wonder about the judge. I think he is aiding and abetting this terrible miscarriage of justice. This case should have been dismissed on its merits months ago. Zimmerman’s attorneys need to appeal this ruling.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 12:50 PM

Really? Gtfo.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:47 PM

Yeah, that was an unwarranted insult to apes.

Unless you break into the primate house at your local zoo, the only people in the USA in danger from an ape are cartoon characters. Not so much with Democrap ‘minority’ voters.

MelonCollie on June 2, 2013 at 12:50 PM

As I recall, evidence of Martin’s character cannot be used during opening arguments. The judge did not exclude such details to be brought up during the body of the trial. But we’ll see what happens.

Would you folks believe that when Yahoo! had up a story of this case last week, their picture of Martin was as a he looked at age twelve?

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 12:52 PM

Much as I believe that Zimmerman is being prosecuted for purely political purposes, the fact is that this isn’t even a “he said, she said.” This is a “he said, he’s dead.” The only person who will be allowed to testify is Zimmerman – Trayvon’s not going to be saying much. So the judge will be very careful in what will be allowed into evidence for the defense, in terms of attacking the victim’s character.

notropis on June 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM

So the guy who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, pummeling his head into the sidewalk, won’t be testifying?

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Seven Seas on June 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM

Just don’t, okay. We don’t need that crap around here. Take it somewhere else.

D-fusit on June 2, 2013 at 12:53 PM

myiq2xu on June 2, 2013 at 12:48 PM

Thanks for telling us what the post already said. Appreciate it.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Would you folks believe that when Yahoo! had up a story of this case last week, their picture of Martin was as a he looked at age twelve?

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 12:52 PM

The media has been doing that since the shooting.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Is that the same judge that okayed Holder to go after James Rosen and Fox News? I’m starting to notice a pattern here.

birdwatcher on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Zimmerman is a hero, putting down that rabid ape Trayvon.

He will be acquitted in under an hour.

Seven Seas on June 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM

And there you have it.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

This hurts justice. When evidence/background is withheld it begins to put doubts in the minds of potential jurors. Can anyone serving on a jury assume they are being given all the facts anymore?

txhsmom on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Appreciate it.

You’re welcome.

myiq2xu on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

The media has been doing that since the shooting.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 12:53 PM

I know. Maybe I’m naive, but I found it surprising they still would at this late date.

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 12:55 PM

Is there a chance the judge is an Obama voter?

birdwatcher on June 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM

Is there a chance the judge is an Obama voter?

birdwatcher on June 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM

Is there a chance Trayvon Martin was black?

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM

and there you have it.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Have what?

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM

The problem is that this court should never had gotten this far to begin with: The DA rejected it; the cops rejected it. Scott assigned it to Corey who deliberately avoided a grand jury because she knew that the GJ would reject it. It’s a set up to placate blacks. I’m sick of it.

Blake on June 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM

And there you have it.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

And the facts of the case? Don’t bother. I’m sure your response will be nothing but illogical garbage about race.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 12:58 PM

The most well-known example of this is the body of law that has determined, largely correctly, that the sexual history of a woman claiming that she was raped is inadmissible in a rape trial.

Which comes down to an excellent reason to never have casual sex. You never know when the other person will claim rape after the fact, and there is very little you can do about it.

Count to 10 on June 2, 2013 at 12:58 PM

Which is why, of course, O’Meara has released this information to the 24 hour media in order to pollute the jury pool.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Of course, Angela Corey never polluted the jury pool, did she? Alan Dershowitz, who worked on the O.J. trial, accused her of reckless and irresponsible behavior from the very beginning of this case. Her “response”? According to Dersho, she called Harvard Law School and, “threatened to sue the institution, get me disciplined by the Bar, and made accusations of libel and slander”

Del Dolemonte on June 2, 2013 at 12:58 PM

Zimmerman knew nothing about Trayvon’s character except what he observed with his own eyes.

This is an excellent point, very well stated.

Jocon307 on June 2, 2013 at 12:59 PM

Would you folks believe that when Yahoo! had up a story of this case last week, their picture of Martin was as a he looked at age twelve?

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 12:52 PM

in order to pollute the jury pool.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 2, 2013 at 1:00 PM

court = case

Blake on June 2, 2013 at 1:00 PM

Have what?

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM

libfree loves that a light-skinned Hispanic guy killed a black thug and is being prosecuted for it. The only thing that would make libfree happier is if Martin was also gay.

If you doubt libfree’s cred, go read his posts after Sandy Hook. If he can’t make liberal propaganda for blacks, gays, or gay blacks, any casket(s) will do.

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:00 PM

This is not a clear or simple as your friend makes it, Ed.

This is a self-defense case. Evidence of the alleged assailant’s reputation for violence (if it can be proved) may well be admissible. In past days, it might be called evidence that he was a “fighting person” or some variation, depending on the state. These things are argued all the time and it is a matter of the interpretation of that state’s law, the type of evidence, the nature of the prior violent acts (if specific and not “reputation” based). Ultimately, it’s a call for the trial judge. And, since the state is prohibited from appealing a verdict, judges tend to be pretty liberal with the defense. If they rule for the defense, they can’t be reversed, as a matter of law. At least, not in the U.S. (which is not the rule in other Western democracies).

The other problem for the prosecution is, any crack in the shield lets it in. If they put up anybody who talks about what a great kid the alleged assailant (alleged by Zimmerman) was, the door swings wide open, the bad character evidence comes rolling in, and the prosecution looks worse than if they’d introduced it themselves in the first place. It looks like they’re hiding something. Which, of course, they are.

You should talk to some veteran prosecutors. Give Vincent Bugliosi a call. Jerry Spence, Bobby Lee Cook, on the defense side. It is not cut and dried at all. I suggest Cook. He has a lot of experience with this issue.

IndieDogg on June 2, 2013 at 1:00 PM

Seven Seas on June 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM

And there you have it. And remember, all Racists are White!

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Edited for accuracy.

Del Dolemonte on June 2, 2013 at 1:01 PM

And now everyone understands why people far and wide settle civil cases out of court, including powerful rich people like Bill Oreilly, because the legal system is another liberal disaster victim where common sense and truth are, in many cases, not allowed.

When you apply the same justice disaster to a criminal case, well, good luck with that.

HopeHeFails on June 2, 2013 at 1:01 PM

Really? Gtfo.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:47 PM

Seven Seas

DarkCurrent on June 2, 2013 at 1:01 PM

The media has been doing that since the shooting.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Here is where I may agree with some critics. I’m disheartened by the left’s stated belief that we must avoid racial profiling, but the rather blatant efforts to present as innocent a version of Trayvon as possible. Very similar to what civil rights leaders did to Claudette Colvin in Montgomery. Colvin refused to give up her seat on a Montgomery public bus months before Rosa Parks chose to. But Colvin was a pregnant, unwed teenager and civil rights leaders knew that her lack of sexual purity would make her an easy target for the news media looking to discredit black civil rights. So Colvin’s case was not supported by local leaders, no boycott was organized etc. Parks, by contrast, was married, had been well trained in non-violence and was someone no one could lob a complaint against; the perfect innocent victim of Jim Crow who became a global icon.

But here’s the question for conservatives, wasn’t Claudette Colvin, despite her unwed pregnancy, still a victim of Jim Crow violence? So isn’t it also possible that despite Trayvon smoking weed (and really, what does that have to do with violence) and being present when other people beat a homeless person (is his job to police them?) and getting in a few highschool scraps (certainly not the only one) he could have been the victim of a violent attack? Of course it is. So what I need the left to do is stop Rosa Paring Trayvon Martin, trying to make him into the perfectly innocent victim. And I need the right to stop Claudette Colvin-ing Trayvon Martin by trying to discredit him as a potential victim because of previous behavior.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:01 PM

Have what?

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM

libfree loves that a Hispanic guy killed a black thug and is being prosecuted for it. The only thing that would make libfree happier is if Martin was also gay.

If you doubt libfree’s cred, go read his posts after Sandy Hook. If he can’t make liberal propaganda for blacks, gays, or gay blacks, any casket(s) will do.

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:02 PM

Zimmerman is a hero, putting down that rabid ape Trayvon.

He will be acquitted in under an hour.

Seven Seas on June 2, 2013 at 12:46 PM

Gee, does anyone think “Seven Seas” might just have something to do with “Mobey”?

Count to 10 on June 2, 2013 at 1:02 PM

Would you folks believe that when Yahoo! had up a story of this case last week, their picture of Martin was as a he looked at age twelve?

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 12:52 PM

The media has been doing that since the shooting.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Happens every sodding time some saggy-pantsed punk gets a bullet hole drilled through him by a non-white civilian and sometimes by a cop of any color. Libtard media starts running pictures showing said punk dressed like a choirboy. Sometimes in the greatest of ironies, this is a per-court-appearance picture and the only time the deceased had ever “dressed up”.

The narrative is “Mah BAYBEE! He kilt mah BAYBEE!”, and bonus points if it’s being said by the unwed ‘mother’ who put off an appointment to get her nails done and abstained from Bud Lite just long enough to appear pitiful in front of a camera crew.

…not mentioned, of course, is that the “baybee” in questionhad been an unholu terror since the day he learned to stick out his lip and say say “**** you”, and a public menace since the day he got his hands on a secondhand knife.

MelonCollie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

The other problem for the prosecution is, any crack in the shield lets it in. If they put up anybody who talks about what a great kid the alleged assailant (alleged by Zimmerman) was, the door swings wide open, the bad character evidence comes rolling in, and the prosecution looks worse than if they’d introduced it themselves in the first place. It looks like they’re hiding something. Which, of course, they are.

IndieDogg on June 2, 2013 at 1:00 PM

That’s a good point. Perhaps this is how just about all character testimony makes it into a trial.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

and there you have it.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Have what?

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

Scott assigned it to Corey who deliberately avoided a grand jury because she knew that the GJ would reject it. It’s a set up to placate blacks. I’m sick of it.

Blake on June 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM

in order to pollute the jury pool.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

The defense can not call the recipients of the emails, texts, and tweets to testify as to the information therein? So overheard jailhouse confessions are no longer admissible either? I think they can get around prohibitions to discussing Martin’s tendencies and motivations.

iurockhead on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

WBlah blah you’re all racist and I’m a whiny dumbsh!t who needs doxing blah blah

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

Summarized.

MelonCollie on June 2, 2013 at 1:04 PM

I’ve been a lawyer for a very long time, and this judge got it right. Now if she let’s the prosecution admit evidence on what a choirboy Martin was, then this would have to be admissible as rebuttal evidence. But the good or bad character of the victim (or the accused) is not admissible unless the character constitutes a true habit and the evidence goes to establish that the person acted in accordance with that habit.

What’s bothering everybody here is that Zimmerman has been tried and convicted in the press. The jury pool has been tainted with the idea that he was some kind of vigilante looking to bother angelic, Skittles-munching black children. Many of us are inclined to believe that a jury might have a hard time acquitting Zimmerman when the more or less explicit threat of racial violence is hanging over the entire proceeding.

35tww on June 2, 2013 at 1:05 PM

libfree loves that a Hispanic guy…

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:02 PM

White Hispanic, remember?

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:05 PM

and there you have it.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Have what?

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:57 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

And all of those conservatives are White, correct?

(Starts Sundial #999)

Del Dolemonte on June 2, 2013 at 1:05 PM

Zimmerman knew nothing about Trayvon’s character except what he observed with his own eyes.

This is an excellent point, very well stated.

Jocon307 on June 2, 2013 at 12:59 PM

And also Zimmerman knew nothing about whether Trayvon was armed or not..
But the media continually describe the event as the shooting of Unarmed Trayvon Martin..
20/20 hindsight works well for the media…

Electrongod on June 2, 2013 at 1:05 PM

O’Meara has released this information to the 24 hour media in order to pollute the jury pool.
libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Last I heard it was Trayon’s side using doctored 911 calls to pollute the jury pool. As well as constantly changing “witness” statements (based on a “witness” whose age seems to change on a daily basis) along with multiple press conferences.

tommyboy on June 2, 2013 at 1:06 PM

White Hispanic, remember?

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:05 PM

Ah, yes. I forgot.

I need to better remember the New Libspeak(TM)

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:06 PM

myiq2xu is correct. The trial should be limited to the facts of what Zimmerman perceived at the time, and whether his perception was reasonable under the circumstances.

Evidence of Trayvon’s character would only become an issue if the prosecution opens the door, for example, by representing in some fashion that Trayvon was a nice kid who would never harm anybody. Or, evidence of Trayvon’s character might come into play if the prosecution tries to argue that Trayvon did not intend to harm Zimmerman.

Unless the prosecution makes that kind of mistake, then the door is shut.

SWLiP on June 2, 2013 at 1:06 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

It’s a good thing your fevered imaginings won’t be admissible either.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:07 PM

The defense can not call the recipients of the emails, texts, and tweets to testify as to the information therein? So overheard jailhouse confessions are no longer admissible either? I think they can get around prohibitions to discussing Martin’s tendencies and motivations.

iurockhead on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

We can only hope. If the jury isn’t allowed to see any history of Martin that isn’t sanitized beyond belief, they don’t have all that much presented facts to go on no matter how much they start to realize the truth.

MelonCollie on June 2, 2013 at 1:07 PM

libfreeordie is a typical racist leftist, projecting it’s racism on others.

birdwatcher on June 2, 2013 at 1:07 PM

what I need the left to do

I need the right to

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:01 PM

Thanks for admitting you’re Needy, but we’ve known that all along.

A+

Del Dolemonte on June 2, 2013 at 1:07 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

It’s a good thing your fevered imaginings won’t be admissible either.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:07 PM

Thread winner!

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:08 PM

this judge got it right.

I agree.

myiq2xu on June 2, 2013 at 1:08 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

So you smear millions of people based on such a comment? Interesting.

You’re as racist as anyone.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 1:09 PM

The tragic irony of this case is political correctness gone crazy. Even though Zimmerman is half-Jewish and half-Hispanic, through mistaken (and often well-known prejudicial) reporting he became the metaphorical WASP-and is still considered that by the black community and most white liberals.

Not only was Zimmerman incorrectly vilified as a WASP vigilante by NBC (thanks to an editing hatchet job) but the waters of the well were further poisoned by the POTUS himself who characterized Trayvon Martin as “the son he would like to have had”. It seems President Obama would like to have a son who is a pot-smoking thief!!! and possibly a mugger as well (since the only credible witness in the case identified Martin as attacking Zimmerman).

Having served as a juror seven times in my life I can speak from experience in saying that NEVER have I seen such a kangaroo court stacked against an individual as poor Zimmerman.Not only a lying, dishonest media and an interfering ,racially biased president but a Florida judicial system deliberately going for the throat to score political points.The first thing any juror wants to know (note-I said juror–not some half-assed law-spouting lawyer) is : DID THE ALLEGED VICTIM HAVE A CRIMINAL (OR SHADY) PAST. This is crucial to the case and it is what Florida is DELIBERATELY WITHHOLDING from prospective jurors in order to offer up a white male (who is really not a white male) as a sacrificial lamb to appease blacks. (If convicted, I believe Zimmerman can appeal this case on poisoning of potential jurors by the president!!!)

MaiDee on June 2, 2013 at 1:09 PM

What’s bothering everybody here is that Zimmerman has been tried and convicted in the press. The jury pool has been tainted

35tww on June 2, 2013 at 1:05 PM

But that can’t be! After all, Professor told us just a few minutes ago that it was Zimmerman’s lawyer tainting that jury pool.

O’Meara has released this information to the 24 hour media in order to pollute the jury pool.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 2, 2013 at 1:10 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

Ass/u/me

myiq2xu on June 2, 2013 at 1:10 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

Not to worry..

The Black Congressional Caucus will be wearing hoodies tomorrow and saying things like..
“Walking While Black in a Gated Community”

Oh wait..
This was already done..

What was it in response to?

Electrongod on June 2, 2013 at 1:11 PM

IndieDogg:

Reputation evidence would only be relevant if Zimmerman was aware of Trayvon having a reputation or propensity for violence at the time of the assault. But the gravaman of this case is that they never met before this moment, so the evidence should be limited to what Zimmerman perceived at the time, and whether evidence pertaining to the assault (i.e., other witness testimony, Zimmerman’s injuries) supports the reasonableness of his perception (I think it will).

I agree with the balance of your comments.

SWLiP on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

this judge got it right.
I agree.

myiq2xu on June 2, 2013 at 1:08 PM

Really? From your last post I would never have guessed. You’re so smart.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.
libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

No, we just don’t like you. Not because you’re black, rather because you’re a scumbag.

jawkneemusic on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

The theory is that Zimmerman should not be convicted or acquitted just because Trayvon was a teenage angel or thug. Zimmerman is claiming self defense. The test is whether a reasonable person would have been in fear for their life under those circumstances.

myiq2xu on June 2, 2013 at 12:48 PM

I should hope that the criterion to allow gun use isn’t fear for the their life, but fear for either their life or serious bodily injury.

thuja on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

Seven Seas

DarkCurrent on June 2, 2013 at 1:01 PM

He should be banned. Clearly a Moby attempting to elicit racist responses from the rest of his. Maybe even a brainfreeordie sock puppet?

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

Last I heard it was Trayon’s side using doctored 911 calls to pollute the jury pool. As well as constantly changing “witness” statements (based on a “witness” whose age seems to change on a daily basis) along with multiple press conferences.

tommyboy on June 2, 2013 at 1:06 PM

The MSM also doctored the photos of Zimmerman’s injuries and the DA only released a B&W xerox copy of his photo which was a deliberate way of minimizing his injuries, too.

Blake on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

I guess some of you are under the mistaken belief that this is still a nation of equal protection under the law.

It is not – you’re Conservatives – the law doesn’t apply to you – you don’t have the rights that everyone else does.

You look to your GOP Ayatollah overlords to correct this situation for you – but until you realize there is no salvation coming from them – and seek another direction for recourse – you will remain second-class citizens.

When people’s rights are taken from them – REAL MEN AND WOMEN reassert them.

Only Cowards put stock in fat, aging, rich politicians to save them.

HondaV65 on June 2, 2013 at 1:13 PM

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 12:42 PM
Too funny . You pukes have done that since day one. Oh and since I have not seen you in a while . F uck off.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 12:45 PM

Literally laughed out loud.

It’s a good thing your fevered imaginings won’t be admissible either.

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:07 PM
Thread winner!

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:08 PM

Absolutely. What a phenomenal comment. Maybe the comment of the week in my book. Go coach.

hawkdriver on June 2, 2013 at 1:14 PM

The Black Congressional Caucus will be wearing hoodies tomorrow and saying things like..
“Walking While Black in a Gated Community”

Electrongod on June 2, 2013 at 1:11 PM

A black man wearing a hoodie would be questioned by immediately upon notice in the neighborhoods where any Kennedy lives. Hell! A black man in a $500 suit would be questioned by police if in Robert Byrd’s old neighborhood.

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:14 PM

Gee, does anyone think “Seven Seas” might just have something to do with “Mobey”?

Count to 10 on June 2, 2013 at 1:02 PM

Astute observation.

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many one conservatives mobey’s response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

FIFY, there, champ.

iurockhead on June 2, 2013 at 1:14 PM

Absolutely. What a phenomenal comment. Maybe the comment of the week in my book. Go coach.

hawkdriver on June 2, 2013 at 1:14 PM

WB, Pilot! How was church?

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:15 PM

brainfreeordie sock puppet?

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

He does let his lover post under his own HA nic …. so you may be right.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 1:15 PM

To me the bottom line is, what could either of them have done differently. Zimmerman, nothing. Martin, don’t assault someone just because they have their eye on you. If this happened 100 more times, I see it ending just like this, 100 more times. Because there’s nothing Zimmerman could have done better.

Devil’s Advocate:

- Zimmerman shouldn’t have been carrying a gun
There was a vicious rottweiler dog running loose in the neighborhood. Zimmerman talked to a cop and asked if pepper spray would be a good idea. The cop said you’d be injured before you could use it. Told him to carry a gun. So he did.
- The 911 operator told Zimmerman to back off
No, she didn’t. Zimmerman told her he was going to see where Martin was going, and the operator said “we don’t need you to do that”. He did it for the neighborhood watch, to see where Martin was going. That’s what neighborhood watches do. They watch the neighborhood.

To me it should be all about lessons learned. And I’ll bet you people will avoid the correct Trayvon Martin lesson like the plague. And that is, especially for young people who may not know better, and maybe especially for young black kids who don’t know better, if someone is following you or keeping an eye on you, don’t assault them.

Don’t. Assault. Them.

But no one will talk about that. They’ll talk about racism, and white Hispanics, and guns, and skittles, and profiling, and hoodies. But they won’t talk about the one lesson to be learned in all of this.

In Cincinnati last year, an 18 year old black college student was tazed and died from heart failure. He’d been tazed the year before too. In this case, cops were called to a dorm room for a disturbance, and the kid got in their faces, and they told him to back off, and he didn’t, so they tazed him.

His parents got $2 million. But the lesson to be learned was lost. The lesson is, learn how to behave when a police officer gives you a lawful order. Obey it. Back off. Don’t get in their faces. No mention of this, anywhere, ever. What a waste of a life. Lesson not learned.

Paul-Cincy on June 2, 2013 at 1:15 PM

Notice. The significantly more virulent response to my saying that anti-blackness undergirds conservatives uncritical support of Zimmerman and the paltry response to Seven Seas calling Martin a “rabid ape.”

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:16 PM

a Florida judicial system deliberately going for the throat to score political points

MaiDee on June 2, 2013 at 1:09 PM

Let’s not forget that Florida’s judicial system, at its very highest level (its Supreme Court) willingly broke their own State’s laws by trying to rewrite Florida’s election laws after the 2000 Presidential election had already taken place, in order to swing that election to the Democrat “candidate”. All 8 of the Supreme Court Justices in that case were Democrats.

Del Dolemonte on June 2, 2013 at 1:16 PM

So, the problem is that this case comes down to how credible it is that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. If he did, Zimmerman is innocent. As such, the case revolves around what kind of person Trayvon was, and if it was likely that he would have made that attack.

Count to 10 on June 2, 2013 at 1:16 PM

Maybe even a brainfreeordie sock puppet?

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

What was that about “fevered imaginings?”

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:18 PM

Could Seven Seas be liveaslave’s sockpuppet? Seems too convenient to me.
SS drops an arguably racist comment, shortly thereafter Lib shows up denouncing it and accusing HA commenters as racist. Just a thought.

D-fusit on June 2, 2013 at 1:18 PM

The real racists are the people who immediately assumed that race had anything to do with the facts of this case.

If Trayvon and Zimmerman were both of the same race then the same facts lead to only one conclusion – Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

myiq2xu on June 2, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Notice. The significantly more virulent response to my saying that anti-blackness undergirds conservatives uncritical support of Zimmerman and the paltry response to Seven Seas calling Martin a “rabid ape.”

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:16 PM

Because Seven Seas appears to be a moby. Additionally, he is basically just using obnoxious language, instead of attempting to tar a political movement, as you are. He also appears to have left.

Count to 10 on June 2, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Seven Seas calling Martin a “rabid ape.”

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:16 PM

We Conservatives gave that comment NO support, and more than one told him to stuff it and kiss off; we have no allowance for that among our own kind.

What YOU say on the matter doesn’t rate. We policed our own, so YOU are now just whining and irrelevant.

As usual.

Liam on June 2, 2013 at 1:19 PM

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:16 PM

You’re more racist than 7 seas I told him to get the f uck out….the same goes for you. F uck off.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 1:20 PM

The anti-black sentiment which undergirds many conservatives response to this case.

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:03 PM

Bitch, please. Seven Seas had a nice version of the James Bond theme, and I liked his “Southside” duet with Gwen Stefani.

Sekhmet on June 2, 2013 at 1:20 PM

This has long been the law. For example, evidence of past convictions cannot be used to argue a “propensity” to commit crime. It would be like a cop saying you were going 46 in a 35 and he knows it because you went 46 in a 35 three years ago. You are inviting the jury to make a logical fallacy, which is why the evidence can be excluded.

Besides which, Zimmerman was covered in defensive wounds–ones the police tried to conceal. That is far better evidence of Martin’s aggression than evidence he got into fights in school.

Outlander on June 2, 2013 at 1:20 PM

Seven Seas calling Martin a “rabid ape.”

libfreeordie on June 2, 2013 at 1:16 PM

Because Seven Seas appears to be a moby. Additionally, he is basically just using obnoxious language, instead of attempting to tar a political movement, as you are. He also appears to have left.

Count to 10 on June 2, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Libfree is Seven Seas.

CW on June 2, 2013 at 1:21 PM

NotCoach on June 2, 2013 at 1:12 PM

You beat me to it. I obviously feel the same way.

D-fusit on June 2, 2013 at 1:21 PM

Trayvon’s corpse is pleading the fifth.

andycanuck on June 2, 2013 at 1:21 PM

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