Former abortionist tells Congress: Ban late-term abortions

posted at 1:21 pm on May 24, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Via Greg Hengler, this testimony to the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil Justice may be even more chilling than some of the testimony at Kermit Gosnell’s trial.  In part, that’s because former abortionist Dr. Anthony Levantino describes the “normal” process of later-term abortions, and not just the supposedly outlier practices of Gosnell and his co-defendants.  Levantino, speaking in support of a bill to ban all abortions after 20 weeks offered by Rep. Trent Franks in response to the exposure of the Gosnell case and others like it, dispassionately describes how abortionists tear fetuses apart limb from limb in such procedures:

LifeNews has the transcript of the testimony:

The first task is remove the laminaria that had earlier been placed in the cervix to dilate it sufficiently to allow the procedure you are about to perform. With that accomplished, direct your attention to the surgical instruments arranged on a small table to your right. The first instrument you reach for is a 14-French suction catheter. It is clear plastic and about nine inches long. It has a bore through the center approximately ¾ of an inch in diameter. Picture yourself introducing this catheter through the cervix and instructing the circulating nurse to turn on the suction machine which is connected through clear plastic tubing to the catheter. What you will see is a pale yellow fluid that looks a lot like urine coming through the catheter into a glass bottle on the suction machine. This is the amniotic fluid that surrounded the baby to protect her.

With suction complete, look for your Sopher clamp. This instrument is about thirteen inches long and made of stainless steel. At the end are located jaws about 2 ½ inches long and about ¾ of an inch wide with rows of sharp ridges or teeth. This instrument is for grasping and crushing tissue. When it gets hold of something, it does not let go. A second trimester D&E abortion is a blind procedure. The baby can be in any orientation or position inside the uterus. Picture yourself reaching in with the Sopher clamp and grasping anything you can. At twenty-four weeks gestation, the uterus is thin and soft so be careful not to perforate or puncture the walls. Once you have grasped something inside, squeeze on the clamp to set the jaws and pull hard–really hard. You feel something let go and out pops a fully formed leg about six inches long. Reach in again and grasp whatever you can. Set the jaw and pull really hard once again and out pops an arm about the same length. Reach in again and again with that clamp and tear out the spine, intestines, heart and lungs.

The toughest part of a D&E abortion is extracting the baby’s head. The head of a baby that age is about the size of a large plum and is now free floating inside the uterine cavity. You can be pretty sure you have hold of it if the Sopher clamp is spread about as far as your fingers will allow. You will know you have it right when you crush d own on the clamp and see white gelatinous material coming through the cervix. That was the baby’s brains. You can then extract the skull pieces. Many times a little face will come out and stare back at you.

Congratulations! You have just successfully performed a second trimester Suction D&E abortion. You just affirmed her right to choose. If you refuse to believe that this procedure inflicts severe pain on that unborn child, please think again.

Levantino then testifies that, in his years of practice, he has never seen a situation where a mother’s life could be saved through this procedure, emphases mine:

Before a Suction D&E procedure can be performed, the cervix must first be sufficiently dilated. In my practice, this was accomplished with serial placement of laminaria. Laminaria is a type of sterilized seaweed that absorbs water over several hours and swells to several times its original diameter. Multiple placements of several laminaria at a time are absolutely required prior to attempting a suction D&E. In the mid second trimester, this requires approximately 36 hours to accomplish. When utilizing the D&X abortion procedure, popularly known as Partial-Birth Abortion, this process requires three days as explained by Dr. Martin Haskell in his 1992 paper that first described this type of abortion.

In cases where a mother’s life is seriously threatened by her pregnancy, a doctor more often than not doesn’t have 36 hours, much less 72 hours, to resolve the problem. Let me illustrate with a real -life case that I managed while at the Albany Medical Center. A patient arrived one night at 28 weeks gestation with severe pre-eclampsia or toxemia.

Her blood pressure on admission was 220/160. As you are probably aware, a normal blood pressure is approximately 120/80. This patient’s pregnancy was a threat to her life and the life of her unborn child. She could very well be minutes or hours away from a major stroke. This case was managed successfully by rapidly stabilizing the patient’s blood pressure and “terminating” her pregnancy by Cesarean section. She and her baby did well. This is a typical case in the world of high-risk obstetrics. In most such cases, any attempt to perform an abortion “to save the mother’s life” would entail undue and dangerous delay in providing appropriate, truly life-saving care.

During my time at Albany Medical Center I managed hundreds of such cases by “terminating”pregnancies to save mother’s lives. In all those hundreds of cases, the number of unborn children that I had to deliberately kill was zero.

Levantino abandoned his abortion practice after the tragic death of his own daughter in a car accident.  His testimony exposes the lies on which abortions — especially late-term abortions — are based.  Be sure to watch all of the way through when Levantino quotes Barack Obama on the need to do what we can even if just to save the life of one child, and then contact your elected Representative to tell him or her what that one thing might be.

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Surely, this ‘doctor’ is secretly a right-wing lunatic fringe Republican Christian homophobe who hates women, blacks, Latinos, and Obama. He likely hasn’t paid taxes or any other part of his fair share in decades. He is totally discredited, and should not be listened to.

– The Left

Liam on May 24, 2013 at 1:27 PM

“Those who hate me love death,” -YHWH.

Akzed on May 24, 2013 at 1:27 PM

“If we can save just one wanted child”

Electrongod on May 24, 2013 at 1:27 PM

That’s speaking truth to power.

Bob's Kid on May 24, 2013 at 1:27 PM

I support abortion being accessible to women and couples early in the pregnancy and in extenuating circumstances.

But I agree wholeheartedly with a late term ban and think that it should be enacted and enforced strictly.

THIS is an act of progress for their agenda that pro-lifers can ACTUALLY achieve.

Genuine on May 24, 2013 at 1:28 PM

In most such cases, any attempt to perform an abortion “to save the mother’s life” would entail undue and dangerous delay in providing appropriate, truly life-saving care.

During my time at Albany Medical Center I managed hundreds of such cases by “terminating”pregnancies to save mother’s lives. In all those hundreds of cases, the number of unborn children that I had to deliberately kill was zero.

Hey, trolls, whatcha got?

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 1:29 PM

Oh? So you mean killing a baby isn’t as easy as having your nails done? Dang…who knew?

Sugar Land on May 24, 2013 at 1:29 PM

Before you enter the Temple of Political power of Progressives….you must cover yourself with the blood of the unborn.

….and support abortion on demand.

Just like the heathen days of Molech or other “gods” of their day.

PappyD61 on May 24, 2013 at 1:29 PM

Planned Butcherhood

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 1:31 PM

On one hand, it’s easy to be discouraged, because even if the House passes the bill, it will go nowhere in the Senate, and even if passed there, O would not sign it.

On the other hand, it’s encouraging to hear the truth spoken in the House. Truth has a funny way of working in some peoples’ hearts… you never know what the seeds of truth sown today will yield down the road.

Marcola on May 24, 2013 at 1:33 PM

Makes you wonder if the abortionists actually explain to the mother what they are intend to do to her baby.
But we know they don’t.

AesopFan on May 24, 2013 at 1:34 PM

Seriously, is abortion really an issue right now? Between the scandals and the gang of eight trying to sneak amnesty past the American people, I really don’t have the emotional capital to invest in an issue that is going nowhere.

Happy Nomad on May 24, 2013 at 1:36 PM

Makes you wonder if the abortionists actually explain to the mother what they are intend to do to her baby.
But we know they don’t.

AesopFan on May 24, 2013 at 1:34 PM

Any law requiring them to do so would be fought tooth and nail by the baby killers. It would somehow ‘infringe’ on a woman’s right to kill choose.

Liam on May 24, 2013 at 1:36 PM

Happy Nomad on May 24, 2013 at 1:36 PM

Sadly, we have to fight on all fronts all the time. Liberals are big on browbeating us, wanting us to tire out and let some things slip by.

Because they are relentless, we must be, too.

Liam on May 24, 2013 at 1:38 PM

Everyone needs to see that testimony.

BoxHead1 on May 24, 2013 at 1:38 PM

Happy Nomad on May 24, 2013 at 1:36 PM

Did you watch the clip?

BoxHead1 on May 24, 2013 at 1:39 PM

During my time at Albany Medical Center I managed hundreds of such cases by “terminating”pregnancies to save mother’s lives. In all those hundreds of cases, the number of unborn children that I had to deliberately kill was zero.

As someone who’s pro-life, I’m rather surprised that this abortionist is saying that there’s never a need to abort a baby to save the life of the mother. I would have thought that ectopic pregnanices would have constituted one of those circumstances, although I suppose he might be naming the 20 week criterion since most of those are caught beforehand.

The former abortionist’s display of the instrument and description of how he’d proceed is sickening. He wasn’t kidding when he said this “procedure” is brutal. And his citing Obama’s notion of saving just one child was perfectly appropriate, and should embarass this administration into changing its position.

Stoic Patriot on May 24, 2013 at 1:41 PM

The two women in pink strategically positioned behind the witness table are wearing shirts that say, “I Support Planned Parenthood” in Spanish. The one on the left has her arms locked tight across her chest during his entire testimony. I wonder if they even understood what he was saying.

It was my experience working in a public hospital in the South where I took care of large numbers of Hispanic women that the vast majority of low-income Hispanics eschew abortion, for religious and cultural reasons. I guess Planned Parenthood is desperately trying to drum up new customers.

inmypajamas on May 24, 2013 at 1:42 PM

Why on Earth was this guy engaged in this sick practice in the first place? And he only abandoned it after his daughter died in a car accident? He suddenly developed a conscience only then? I don’t know what to make of that. I mean, I’m glad he’s speaking against it now, but there’s something seriously askew about this guy’s moral compass.

WhatSlushfund on May 24, 2013 at 1:43 PM

I support abortion being accessible to women and couples early in the pregnancy and in extenuating circumstances.

But I agree wholeheartedly with a late term ban and think that it should be enacted and enforced strictly.

THIS is an act of progress for their agenda that pro-lifers can ACTUALLY achieve.

Genuine on May 24, 2013 at 1:28 PM

I agree that I think pro-life advocates can achieve banning of late term abortion.

However, “a person’s a person no matter how small.”

Fetal Development: First Trimester at The American Pregnancy Center

Fetal Development Pictures Slideshow: Month by Month at MedicineNet

The majority of abortions in 2009 took place early in gestation: 91.7% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation, and of the abortions performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation, 69.8% were performed at ≤ 8 weeks’ gestation. In 2009, 16.5% of all abortions were medical abortions.
–Center for Disease Control and Prevention
–Division of Reproductive Health, Data and Statistics

Your position still allows the vast majority of abortions to take place.

INC on May 24, 2013 at 1:43 PM

Eleven years ago [c. 1961] while giving an anesthetic for a ruptured entopic pregnancy (at eight weeks gestation), I was handed what I believe was the smallest living human ever seen. The embryonic sac was intact and transparent. Within the sac was a tiny human male swimming extremely vigorously in the amniotic fluid, while attached to the wall by the umbilical cord. This tiny human was perfectly developed, with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes. It was almost transparent, as regards the skin, and the delicate arteries and veins were prominent to the ends of the fingers. The baby was extremely alive and swam about the sac approximately one time per second, with a natural swimmer’s stroke. This tiny human did not look at all like the photos and drawings and models of embryos which I had seen, nor did it look like a few embryos I have been able to observe since then, obviously because this one was alive. When the sac was opened, the tiny human immediately lost his life and took on the appearance of what is accepted as the appearance of an embryo at this stage of life.
–Paul E. Rockwell, M.D.
–Director of Anesthesiology, Leonard Hospital, Troy, New York
–Petition to U.S. Supreme Court, October, 1972.
–Markle v. Albele, 72-56,72-730, p. 11.1

INC on May 24, 2013 at 1:45 PM

As someone who’s pro-life, I’m rather surprised that this abortionist is saying that there’s never a need to abort a baby to save the life of the mother. I would have thought that ectopic pregnanices would have constituted one of those circumstances, although I suppose he might be naming the 20 week criterion since most of those are caught beforehand.

Stoic Patriot on May 24, 2013 at 1:41 PM

He’s referring to using the D&E procedure to save a mother’s life. In ectopic pregnancies, the mother’s abdomen is opened up and the infant is removed along with the fallopian tube.

CDeb on May 24, 2013 at 1:45 PM

Did you watch the clip?

BoxHead1 on May 24, 2013 at 1:39 PM

No and I don’t need to. I’m pro-life. But I’m also realistic enough to know that even if there is political momentum enough to get a ban on late-term abortions through the House it will be stopped dead in the Senate. The Dems will not sign on to a pro-life bill.

Happy Nomad on May 24, 2013 at 1:48 PM

“Those who hate me love death,” -YHWH.

Akzed on May 24, 2013 at 1:27 PM

Worth a quote & bump

22044 on May 24, 2013 at 1:51 PM

Why on Earth was this guy engaged in this sick practice in the first place? And he only abandoned it after his daughter died in a car accident? He suddenly developed a conscience only then? I don’t know what to make of that. I mean, I’m glad he’s speaking against it now, but there’s something seriously askew about this guy’s moral compass.

WhatSlushfund on May 24, 2013 at 1:43 PM

I imagine he needed this traumatic event to help the scales fall from his eyes. This is one instance where we can say we know the reason for a person’s death. It was so he would stop what he was doing and go 180 degrees in the other direction.

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 1:51 PM

Why on Earth was this guy engaged in this sick practice in the first place? And he only abandoned it after his daughter died in a car accident? He suddenly developed a conscience only then? I don’t know what to make of that. I mean, I’m glad he’s speaking against it now, but there’s something seriously askew about this guy’s moral compass.

WhatSlushfund on May 24, 2013 at 1:43 PM

We ought to rejoice that he had a change of heart.

A religious leader from an ancient city named Tarsus once did everything he could to destroy the early Church, including dragging families into prison.
This man went on to write much of the New Testament…because he had a change of heart after an encounter with the risen Christ.

itsnotaboutme on May 24, 2013 at 1:52 PM

No and I don’t need to. I’m pro-life. But I’m also realistic enough to know that even if there is political momentum enough to get a ban on late-term abortions through the House it will be stopped dead in the Senate. The Dems will not sign on to a pro-life bill.

Happy Nomad on May 24, 2013 at 1:48 PM

Is there ANY bill the House could pass right now that addresses what you deem to be the nation’s priorities AND pass the Senate?

CDeb on May 24, 2013 at 1:53 PM

the scales fall from his eyes.
Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 1:51 PM

Great minds think alike! :)

itsnotaboutme on May 24, 2013 at 1:53 PM

Why on Earth was this guy engaged in this sick practice in the first place? And he only abandoned it after his daughter died in a car accident? He suddenly developed a conscience only then? I don’t know what to make of that. I mean, I’m glad he’s speaking against it now, but there’s something seriously askew about this guy’s moral compass.

WhatSlushfund on May 24, 2013 at 1:43 PM

I agree with your first question, but I’ll take it when someone changes his heart &/or mind in the right direction. Often the stimulus to effect such a change is experiencing a personal loss.

22044 on May 24, 2013 at 1:54 PM

Great minds think alike! :)

itsnotaboutme on May 24, 2013 at 1:53 PM

Indeed!!

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 1:59 PM

Did you watch the clip?

BoxHead1 on May 24, 2013 at 1:39 PM
No and I don’t need to. I’m pro-life. But I’m also realistic enough to know that even if there is political momentum enough to get a ban on late-term abortions through the House it will be stopped dead in the Senate. The Dems will not sign on to a pro-life bill.

Happy Nomad on May 24, 2013 at 1:48 PM

20 weeks is what’s on the table in this hearing. Get the dems on record supporting late term abortions. If it’s political momentum your concerned about then this seems like a win with no down side.

BoxHead1 on May 24, 2013 at 2:01 PM

Now how would the “pillars of the catholicism” cuomo, sebilius, pelosi and biden get their Gosnell fabric coats, lamp shades, purses and shoes if you restrict 3rd and 4th trimester abortions?

Some people just don’t understand the trials and tribulations of being a ruling elite. You need those extra perks to offset the stress.

acyl72 on May 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM

Hideous beyond all measure.
It says a lot about a culture that permits this.
And it says even more about such evil monsters as NARAL who actively promote this under the guise of the Orwellian phrase “freedom of choice”.

justltl on May 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM

Why on Earth was this guy engaged in this sick practice in the first place? And he only abandoned it after his daughter died in a car accident? He suddenly developed a conscience only then? I don’t know what to make of that. I mean, I’m glad he’s speaking against it now, but there’s something seriously askew about this guy’s moral compass.

WhatSlushfund on May 24, 2013 at 1:43 PM

Never underestimate the level of indoctrination that goes on within liberal and feminists. It’s cult like and very hard to escape from. It takes either a “come to Jesus moment” or some kind of tragedy, as what happened to this man in order to break free.

He will probably lose some friends and if he is still practicing medicine be shunned by a number of colleagues for speaking out.

It’s hard to think anything different when you’ve been indoctrinated or it’s been with you from birth – think of being born into a cult and what it takes to finally break free.

Same thing.

kim roy on May 24, 2013 at 2:11 PM

As people in the pro-life movement have known all along, abortion has nothing to do with a woman’s right to chose. It’s all about convenience for them and the “right” to have unlimited sex with absolutely no consequences. With the vast amount of birth control devices on the market, there is no excuse for the majority of abortions. These same people would be on the front lines if they heard an animal was being abused yet they are strangely silent when untold babies are murdered. To bad we can’t use the same money that we spend on birth control and buy these people a conscious.

bandutski on May 24, 2013 at 2:13 PM

Does anyone ever become a stronger supporter of abortion when they learn more about the barbarism of the act?

NotCoach on May 24, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Makes you wonder if the abortionists actually explain to the mother what they are intend to do to her baby.
But we know they don’t.

AesopFan on May 24, 2013 at 1:34 PM

Any law requiring them to do so would be fought tooth and nail by the baby killers. It would somehow ‘infringe’ on a woman’s right to kill choose.

Liam on May 24, 2013 at 1:36 PM

By law, the doctor had to tell me that there was a chance, a very small chance, that I could be gravely injured or die from my colonoscopy. Yet the pro abortion crowd makes absolutely sure a woman is not told about any risk of having a razor toothed clamp chomping around in her uterus may cause. Because it might cause her to CHOOSE differently. Remember folks, PP and naral said after the gosnell verdict that the only way to prevent doctors like him is to resist any and all laws limiting any and all abortions.

Its this kind of stuff that makes me wish G-d was still in the smiting business.

Spectreman on May 24, 2013 at 2:20 PM

NotCoach on May 24, 2013

For an easy answer to your question just look at what happened in the concentration camps during WW2. Many people knew about them and yet they turned a blind eye. Edmund Burke said it best “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”

bandutski on May 24, 2013 at 2:21 PM

Way to show your real colors, “conservatives” who support this legislation: states should have no say in this matter. Congress should dictate to them the acceptable cut-off point for abortions. Now that’s federalism, huh?

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 2:23 PM

Don’t use the excuse “it will never pass…” to prevent you from doing what’s ethical.

itsacookbook on May 24, 2013 at 2:24 PM

All surgery sounds gross. I would hope that no one not already pro-life would give a second thought to pro-lifers describing D&E abortions and attempting to make them seem yucky and apparently therefore immoral.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

Way to show your real colors, “conservatives” who support this legislation: states should have no say in this matter. Congress should dictate to them the acceptable cut-off point for abortions. Now that’s federalism, huh?

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 2:23 PM

Generally, I agree.

But don’t forget that the federal Supreme Court cut the legs out from under the states with Roe v. Wade.

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 2:32 PM

All surgery sounds gross. I would hope that no one not already pro-life would give a second thought to pro-lifers describing D&E abortions and attempting to make them seem yucky and apparently therefore immoral.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

So would you support PSAs describing D&E in detail?

NotCoach on May 24, 2013 at 2:33 PM

Way to show your real colors, “conservatives” who support this legislation: states should have no say in this matter. Congress should dictate to them the acceptable cut-off point for abortions. Now that’s federalism, huh?

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 2:23 PM

Get rid of Roe v. Wade and we’ll get back to federalism you disingenuous pr!ck.

NotCoach on May 24, 2013 at 2:34 PM

All surgery sounds gross. I would hope that no one not already pro-life would give a second thought to pro-lifers describing D&E abortions and attempting to make them seem yucky and apparently therefore immoral.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

“Yucky”?!?

How about blood-curdlingly disturbing.

What a tool.

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 2:34 PM

For an easy answer to your question just look at what happened in the concentration camps during WW2. Many people knew about them and yet they turned a blind eye. Edmund Burke said it best “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”

bandutski on May 24, 2013 at 2:21 PM

Turning a blind eye is different then what I’m asking. Let me put it this way: How many people have gone on a public crusade to defend these barbaric acts after learning more about them? We see plenty who’ve turned away from abortion after being intimate with it, but I don’t recall anyone moving the other way under similar circumstances.

NotCoach on May 24, 2013 at 2:38 PM

Generally, I agree.

But don’t forget that the federal Supreme Court cut the legs out from under the states with Roe v. Wade.

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 2:32 PM

That’s true, but getting the federal government involved even further will not do anything to help the situation.

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM

Stop calling them “abortionist”. They are child killers.

joshlbetts on May 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM

Or infant murderer. Take your pick.

joshlbetts on May 24, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Its this kind of stuff that makes me wish G-d was still in the smiting business.

Spectreman on May 24, 2013 at 2:20 PM

Oh, He never got out of it. He’s simply patient in the extreme. That’s why He alone is God.

Liam on May 24, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Thank you Ed for posting this. I did not realize until I read this horrific transcript that a “late term abortion to save the life of the mother” is actually an oxymoron. The time required to perform the abortion would actually be more dangerous to the life of the mother (leaving aside the baby, of course) than a Cesarian.

This is an important point that, after all these years, I didn’t know…learn something every day on Hot Air.

Blaise on May 24, 2013 at 2:43 PM

Good point NotCoach.

bandutski on May 24, 2013 at 2:51 PM

Once again, we have to put up with attacks from those Science-hating conservatives.

hawksruleva on May 24, 2013 at 2:55 PM

Way to show your real colors, “conservatives” who support this legislation: states should have no say in this matter. Congress should dictate to them the acceptable cut-off point for abortions. Now that’s federalism, huh?

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 2:23 PM

Generally, I agree.

But don’t forget that the federal Supreme Court cut the legs out from under the states with Roe v. Wade.

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 2:32 PM

There is no way for the state to overturn Roe and subsequent decisions. It has to start at the federal level. We don’t have a choice.

cptacek on May 24, 2013 at 3:02 PM

Also, Gosnell’s own attorney thinks the cut off should be 14-15 weeks, not 20.

cptacek on May 24, 2013 at 3:03 PM

That’s true, but getting the federal government involved even further will not do anything to help the situation.

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM

Help the situation do what? You are perfectly fine with the situation exactly how it is, with the Supreme Court overriding all state laws on the matter.

BTW, did you get that drain cleaned out at your in-law’s clinic?

cptacek on May 24, 2013 at 3:04 PM

I think I’m becoming an atheist.

Because if there was a God, He would stop this.

Alternative possibility: He’s up there, and watching, and BAD stuff is headed our way.

Shorter version: People suck. Horribly. God should nuke us from orbit, just to be sure.

Professor Blather on May 24, 2013 at 3:05 PM

The Disciples of Molech never miss a cue.

CurtZHP on May 24, 2013 at 3:08 PM

Why on Earth was this guy engaged in this sick practice in the first place? And he only abandoned it after his daughter died in a car accident? He suddenly developed a conscience only then? I don’t know what to make of that. I mean, I’m glad he’s speaking against it now, but there’s something seriously askew about this guy’s moral compass.

WhatSlushfund on May 24, 2013 at 1:43 PM

In my experience the most effecitve anti-drinking and driving speakers are those who have killed someone while drunk-driving. To me they were more effective than the mothers of the victims or seriously injured victims themselves.

To me the same rule applies here. He is in essence doing something about his past behavior, I think fully understanding that his personal journey will never be complete. No amount of speeches seem to satisfy those who are attempting to repent after wronging others. Powerful stuff IMVHO.

weaselyone on May 24, 2013 at 3:17 PM

I’m sick to my stomach.

CantCureStupid on May 24, 2013 at 3:22 PM

I think I’m becoming an atheist.

Because if there was a God, He would stop this.

Alternative possibility: He’s up there, and watching, and BAD stuff is headed our way.

Shorter version: People suck. Horribly. God should nuke us from orbit, just to be sure.

Professor Blather on May 24, 2013 at 3:05 PM

After all of human history its many stories of extreme cruelty, you think second trimester abortion is the reason “God should nuke us from orbit”. Your absolute lack of any historical perspective suggests that your intuitions about abortion being yucky and immoral shouldn’t be taken seriously.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 3:24 PM

Way to show your real colors, “conservatives” who support this legislation: states should have no say in this matter. Congress should dictate to them the acceptable cut-off point for abortions. Now that’s federalism, huh?

Armin Tamzarian

Way to show your true colors. Anything to keep the slaughter going, right?

That’s true, but getting the federal government involved even further will not do anything to help the situation.

Armin Tamzarian

Unless you happen to be one of those babies who couldn’t be murdered after 20 weeks.

xblade on May 24, 2013 at 3:26 PM

that was so disgusting to read, especially the part where the baby’s useless lump of tissue’s brains are sucked out. pro-choicers should read it and then defend it, because this is what they support. this is what they fight so hard for. this is what they want more of. defend this, pro-choicers.

Why on Earth was this guy engaged in this sick practice in the first place? And he only abandoned it after his daughter died in a car accident? He suddenly developed a conscience only then? I don’t know what to make of that. I mean, I’m glad he’s speaking against it now, but there’s something seriously askew about this guy’s moral compass.

WhatSlushfund on May 24, 2013 at 1:43 PM

i don’t get it either. he says that after you perform the procedure you see a small face coming out of the uterus…. ugh. how can you do that more than once? after that happened one time, i would never perform an abortion again.

All surgery sounds gross. I would hope that no one not already pro-life would give a second thought to pro-lifers describing D&E abortions and attempting to make them seem yucky and apparently therefore immoral.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

you abortion lovers sure are desperate. you all pretend that pro-lifers are exaggerating things and making abortion into a disgusting and disturbing thing, as if it isn’t until we made it seem that way. you put the blame on us, but we’re not actually doing anything unfair. we are simply describing how this kind of abortion procedure works. so we can’t even describe how abortion works? why do you abortion lovers want to keep it a secret? if there is nothing bad about abortion then what’s so bad about describing the details of the procedure? yes, in this procedure, unborn humans are literally torn limb from limb, then their heads are actually crushed. i’m simply stating facts. how come you abortion lovers get uncomfortable when pro-lifers state facts?

you all claim that pro-lifers make abortion sound disturbing, but actually, the opposite is going on: abortion supporters are sugarcoating abortion and making it seem not as bad as it really is. your side is doing what you falsely accuse our side of doing. it’s such incredible bs that i am certain that you abortion supporters won’t get away with it for much longer. once the general public becomes more aware of the details of late-term abortion procedures- and pro-lifers always work hard to spread the word- people’s support for late term abortions will sharply decline. it’s only a matter of time. you can only suppress the truth for so long.

Sachiko on May 24, 2013 at 3:31 PM

Awful stuff. Those advocating for “choice” are endorsing pure evil, nothing more.

changer1701 on May 24, 2013 at 3:31 PM

I think I’m becoming an atheist.

Because if there was a God, He would stop this.

Alternative possibility: He’s up there, and watching, and BAD stuff is headed our way.

Shorter version: People suck. Horribly. God should nuke us from orbit, just to be sure.

Professor Blather on May 24, 2013 at 3:05 PM

He wants us to fight hard to stop this. that’s why we need to speak out against it whenever we have the chance, and spread the word to others. eventually public support for abortion will decline. it’s like slavery. one day people will look back and wonder how abortion went on for so long.

Sachiko on May 24, 2013 at 3:37 PM

I think I’m becoming an atheist.

Because if there was a God, He would stop this.

Alternative possibility: He’s up there, and watching, and BAD stuff is headed our way.

Shorter version: People suck. Horribly. God should nuke us from orbit, just to be sure.

Professor Blather on May 24, 2013 at 3:05 PM

After all of human history its many stories of extreme cruelty, you think second trimester abortion is the reason “God should nuke us from orbit”. Your absolute lack of any historical perspective suggests that your intuitions about abortion being yucky and immoral shouldn’t be taken seriously.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 3:24 PM

We have free will. Our evil too, is individual so we will pay as individuals. However, what in human history is worse than the second trimester abortion described above? You have an example of something more horrific? Ripping apart a human child who has never even seen the sky, has never had a breath, has never smiled or laughed or cried, for your convenience? And by the wish of his mother? Nothing is more monstrous.

Haunches on May 24, 2013 at 3:44 PM

All surgery sounds gross. I would hope that no one not already pro-life would give a second thought to pro-lifers describing D&E abortions and attempting to make them seem yucky and apparently therefore immoral.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

I’m a man, 28 and tougher that wood-pecker lips. I’ve seen men die in combat and done some of the killing myself. Your words left me saddened almost to the point of tears. I do not even know how to respond except to say the way the comment made me feel. You’re so callous, cold.

smoothsailing on May 24, 2013 at 3:47 PM

I’m a man, 28 and tougher that wood-pecker lips. I’ve seen men die in combat and done some of the killing myself. Your words left me saddened almost to the point of tears. I do not even know how to respond except to say the way the comment made me feel. You’re so callous, cold.

smoothsailing on May 24, 2013 at 3:47 PM

You get me wrong. I am a person deeply in love with the seamless web of life on this planet. Life–the plants, animals, fungi, and our unicellular brothers–are all sacred.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 4:00 PM

You get me wrong. I am a person deeply in love with the seamless web of life on this planet. Life–the plants, animals, fungi, and our unicellular brothers–are all sacred.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 4:00 PM

You strike me as someone deeply in love with his self. There is no point to anything if humanity does not put humanity first.

NotCoach on May 24, 2013 at 4:03 PM

Jesus, but this brings tears to my eyes. How can anyone engage in this brutal behavior dispassionately and go on to talk about it as though they just separated a not-quite-ripe tomato from a vine?

totherightofthem on May 24, 2013 at 4:04 PM

seem yucky. . ..

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

SEEM yucky? I am no squeamish girly-girl, afraid of the sight of blood, but this is not “surgery”, it’s slaughter. There is not one excuse that can justify this behavior as the life of the mother can more easily be saved via performing an emergency caesarean section, as the doctor says. Why should I believe you over the trained ob/gyn?

totherightofthem on May 24, 2013 at 4:07 PM

Don’t bother. You aren’t dealing with someone with a full deck who can describe the intentional dismemberment and brain crushing of a live infant by the request of it’s own mother as “yucky”. Actually, even using or typing the word “yucky” gives away the maturity and reasonableness of someone so vastly separated from reality that she has feelings for fungi. Might as well talk to your bread mold.

Haunches on May 24, 2013 at 4:27 PM

All surgery sounds gross. I would hope that no one not already pro-life would give a second thought to pro-lifers describing D&E abortions and attempting to make them seem yucky and apparently therefore immoral.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

Well, there ya go. Hernia repair = ripping a baby apart limb by limb for the sole reason that it might be a “hassle” for mommy or mommy and daddy didn’t have the wherewithal to get their act together.

You go ahead and keep making those equivalencies. Seriously. You do us more favors than you think.

I love these threads. The sociopaths come out from under their rocks so we can identify them easier.

kim roy on May 24, 2013 at 4:32 PM

All surgery sounds gross. I would hope that no one not already pro-life would give a second thought to pro-lifers describing D&E abortions and attempting to make them seem yucky and apparently therefore immoral.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

I actually used to donate to NARAL, many years ago. One time I heard one of their spokeswomen say in an NPR interview almost exactly what you said. She said “all surgery sounds brutal”, when defending late term “partial birth abortions”. That did it for me. I started right there to hate those people. I’m still a little squishy on very early abortion, but I think anything over 12 weeks at the latest should be outlawed.
I think it’s good that the Gosnell incident has opened up an opportunity for this information to get out about what actually goes on in a mid term procedure. It’s virtually censored in the media because of the agenda that must be pushed.

juliesa on May 24, 2013 at 4:34 PM

You get me wrong. I am a person deeply in love with the seamless web of life on this planet. Life–the plants, animals, fungi, and our unicellular brothers–are all sacred.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 4:00 PM

Sociopath, confusing appreciating the beauty and complexities of life as a construct over the realities are two different things.

You’re welcome.

kim roy on May 24, 2013 at 4:35 PM

For the record, I am for the states being able to decide for themselves. The Constitution says nothing about abortion one way or the other. The problem in my view is that the states have been denied the right to decide this question for themselves for over 40 years now. The way utilitarian abortion supporters respond to the idea of states deciding this question tells me that they really don’t believe they have public opinion on their side.

gryphon202 on May 24, 2013 at 4:39 PM

And might I remind my fellow pro-lifers, Thuja has been very open about his utilitarianism since before Gosnell’s trial started. There are some people out there who just can’t conceive (pun intended) of inherent value in human life. Those ghouls will always be with us, no matter how repugnant we find them.

gryphon202 on May 24, 2013 at 4:42 PM

But don’t forget that the federal Supreme Court cut the legs out from under the states with Roe v. Wade.

Bitter Clinger on May 24, 2013 at 2:32 PM

That’s true, but getting the federal government involved even further will not do anything to help the situation.

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM

Seymour,

If one views an unborn baby as a human life, than the federal gov’t has a duty to protect the child’s civil rights. There are, in fact, some things where federal gov’t action is proper – even to conservatives.

It is only if you think of a child growing in the womb as a “nothing” that you can argue that it is a states’ rights issue.

Monkeytoe on May 24, 2013 at 4:46 PM

It is only if you think of a child growing in the womb as a “nothing” that you can argue that it is a states’ rights issue.

Monkeytoe on May 24, 2013 at 4:46 PM

I am not opposed on principle to an amendment protecting human life from abortion. But I’m sorry to say that the federales don’t have any business in this absent an amendment. This is going to needlessly put me on the shit list of a lot of pro-lifers, I’m sure, but oh well.

gryphon202 on May 24, 2013 at 4:51 PM

Seymour,

If one views an unborn baby as a human life, than the federal gov’t has a duty to protect the child’s civil rights. There are, in fact, some things where federal gov’t action is proper – even to conservatives.

It is only if you think of a child growing in the womb as a “nothing” that you can argue that it is a states’ rights issue.

Monkeytoe on May 24, 2013 at 4:46 PM

So the federal government then also has a duty to create and enforce hate crime legislation too, in order to protect the “civil rights” of minorities, right?

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 4:56 PM

So the federal government then also has a duty to create and enforce hate crime legislation too, in order to protect the “civil rights” of minorities, right?

Armin Tamzarian on May 24, 2013 at 4:56 PM

Technically, the only debate here is when this is a person. There are already laws on the book regarding ending life of a person.

It’s a matter of when the rights of the person begin.

Or are you disagreeing that it is not government’s job enforce laws?

Or are you arguing about legally sanctioning murder for a certain class of person, when we get around to defining “person”?

kim roy on May 24, 2013 at 5:17 PM

I think I’m becoming an atheist.

Because if there was a God, He would stop this.

Professor Blather on May 24, 2013 at 3:05 PM

Another way of looking at things:
If there was a devil, he would start this.

justltl on May 24, 2013 at 5:21 PM

Regarding the rabid proponents of abortion in general and later term abortions in particular:

Religiously speaking, they’re evil.
Psychologically speaking, they’re nuts. Total psychopaths.

justltl on May 24, 2013 at 5:39 PM

And might I remind my fellow pro-lifers, Thuja has been very open about his utilitarianism since before Gosnell’s trial started. There are some people out there who just can’t conceive (pun intended) of inherent value in human life. Those ghouls will always be with us, no matter how repugnant we find them.

gryphon202 on May 24, 2013 at 4:42 PM

Gryphon, you are being weird. I have never once said anything to the effect of being a Utilitarian, and I, in fact, have explained that the theory of morality that I subscribe to is given in John Kekes book “The Morality of Pluralism”. (John Kekes has also written books titled “Against Liberalism” and “A Case for Conservatism”.) I hold that Utilitarianism is one of many theories of morality and it neither the best nor the worst of the lot.

I realize that Utilitarianism represents to you a uniquely evil set of ideas. Could you explain why that is? Here’s the wikipedia article on Utilitarianism.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 6:36 PM

Wake up democrats…you encourage sin…..you allow and condone the slaughter of innocent children…you are baby killers but you can be forgiven if you turn away from the evil you immerse yourselves in….turn away and never condone it again….

crosshugger on May 24, 2013 at 6:38 PM

I realize that Utilitarianism represents to you a uniquely evil set of ideas. Could you explain why that is? Here’s the wikipedia article on Utilitarianism.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 6:36 PM

I never called you evil. I called you repuganant. As in, people recoil instinctively from your way of thinking. You seem to cling to your own prejudicial notion that I want to “paint you” as something. Somehow I am responsible for thinking of you as evil. I’m really not. You’ll just have to get used to the idea that a solid majority of posters here, myself included, find it disturbing that you place a utilitarian value on human life. It is what it is.

As I have said before, utilitarianism as a matter of public policy viz-a-vis abortion means that someone will have to judge the value of individual human lives. It may be an individual or a small group of individuals doing the judging, but someday you are bound to disagree with that judgement. When you do, it won’t be very far at all from “you have a right to eliminate a lesser life” to “you have a duty to eliminate a lesser life.”

In closing, I don’t have to look up a Wikipedia article to know what Peter Singer and Ingrid Newkirk believe about the value of human life or lack thereof. Reading that article won’t change any minds here one way or another. Try again.

gryphon202 on May 24, 2013 at 8:50 PM

You get me wrong. I am a person deeply in love with the seamless web of life on this planet. Life–the plants, animals, fungi, and our unicellular brothers–are all sacred.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 4:00 PM

I don’t get you anything. I’m not assessing you. I don’t understand your level of Nihilism and I don’t want to. You’re the kind of person I could only listen to for a moment in real life before I’d have to just walk off for fear of screaming at you.

That you equate humans to plants, confounds me. I pity what you are. I honestly pity you and what my generation has become.

I’ve served with NCOs and officers who I think are every bit as deserving of being considered a greatest generation. But people my age, people like you, you have no soul. Not in the religious sense, but in any connotation of the idea of compassion for any living thing. You fucking put plants on an equal footing with a human baby. I do not even know how to respond to that. My generation is just lost. We collectively have no soul.

smoothsailing on May 24, 2013 at 9:22 PM

You get me wrong. I am a person deeply in love with the seamless web of life on this planet. Life–the plants, animals, fungi, and our unicellular brothers–are all sacred.

thuja on May 24, 2013 at 4:00 PM

I don’t get you anything. I’m not assessing you. I don’t understand your level of Nihilism and I don’t want to. You’re the kind of person I could only listen to for a moment in real life before I’d have to just walk off for fear of screaming at you.

That you equate humans to plants, confounds me. I pity what you are. I honestly pity you and what my generation has become.

I’ve served with NCOs and officers who I think are every bit as deserving of being considered a greatest generation. But people my age, people like you, you have no soul. Not in the religious sense, but in any connotation of the idea of compassion for any living thing. You put plants on an equal footing with a human baby. I do not even know how to respond to that. My generation is just lost. We collectively have no soul.

smoothsailing on May 24, 2013 at 9:23 PM