Could we have any Gosnells in Minnesota?

posted at 2:01 pm on May 19, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

For those who paid attention to the Kermit Gosnell trial in Philadelphia, with its revelations about the horrific conditions inside the clinic and the 17 years of official indifference to his practices, the question arises as to how many Gosnells we have murdering live infants that survive abortion procedures.  Do we have any in our communities, and do our local and state authorities even care if we do?  In Minnesota, as my friend Teresa Collett pointed out in the Star Tribune this week, the answer to the first question is we don’t know — because the answer to the second question is a very pointed no:

So what would happen if Gosnell’s clinic had been in Minnesota?

The Philadelphia jury was convinced that three infants survived Gosnell’s attempts to abort them. One of the babies was so large, Gosnell joked that “this baby is big enough to walk around with me.” The second was breathing for more than 20 minutes, and the third was delivered in a toilet and tried to use swimming motions to get out. All three died after Gosnell or a member of his staff “snipped” the newborns’ spinal cords.

Gruesome as the practice of snipping is, it is hard to distinguish from the dismemberment involved in the most common method of abortion practiced in Minnesota during late second- and third-trimester abortions.

In addition to the murder counts, Gosnell was convicted of performing abortions on women who were more than 24 weeks pregnant. That conviction would not be possible in Minnesota, because it is not a crime here.

In 1974, the Minnesota Legislature attempted to prohibit abortions after the baby was viable (capable of living outside the womb) except when the pregnancy threatened the mother’s life or health. However, the law was immediately challenged by a Minnesota abortion doctor and was struck down by a federal court in 1976.

In 2011, the Legislature voted to prohibit late-term abortions, but Gov. Mark Dayton vetoed the law. This means that it is legal for a woman to obtain an abortion in Minnesota at any time up until birth.

How about the conditions of the clinic for the women who seek treatment in these abortion mills?  Gosnell’s clinic was a nightmare of filth, trophies, building-code violations, and murder — at least as defined in Pennsylvania.  If Gosnell had set up shop in Minnesota, would he still be going to prison?  No, Collett explains, he’d still be laughing all the way to the bank:

Minnesota offers no regulations to protect the health and safety of women seeking abortions. In 1974, the Legislature passed a law (which is still on the books) requiring the health commissioner to license and promulgate rules for abortion clinics. The commissioner adopted clinic regulations in 1974, but a federal district court struck them down.

The Legislature attempted to remedy this dangerous omission by passing a clinic regulations bill in 2012, but Gov. Dayton vetoed the bill. He claimed the regulations were unnecessary because Minnesota clinics are adequately monitored by the National Abortion Federation, a national trade association of abortion clinics.

The NAF denied Gosnell certification for his Philadelphia clinic — but Gosnell also worked at an NAF-accredited Delaware clinic.  He referred women ineligible for abortions under Delaware law to the Philadelphia clinic instead, and at least a few of the witnesses for the prosecution of Gosnell worked in that NAF-accredited clinic.

Besides, what happens if the NAF declines or rescinds accreditation of a clinic in Minnesota?  Does the state shut the clinic down, or do they just continue to operate independently?  I’d guess it’s the latter, since the law doesn’t have any way right now for the state to intervene.  Also, in what other industries do liberals like Mark Dayton approve of the elimination of state regulation in favor of industry-based certification?  This seems like a first to me.

So yes, it seems as though we may very well have a Gosnell in Minnesota, or maybe a whole lot more than just one.  Clearly, Governor Dayton and the state has no interest in stopping a Gosnell either from murdering live infants that survive an abortion, or protecting women from the conditions found in Gosnell’s clinic.  Without any penalties for committing these kinds of atrocities, it’s not hard to imagine that they occur more often than Minnesotans think they do, right here in our own back yard.

Gosnell flourished because he knew the state took no interest in what happened behind the doors of his clinic, even when women died as a result of his actions. Mark Rienzi wrote earlier this week about the moral implications of law and lack of law in USA Today, and how that forms our communities — and how the latter produces Gosnells:

The law can be a potent moral teacher, which is a good thing. Laws against slavery and discrimination have helped reduce prejudice. Laws requiring accommodations for people with disabilities have helped them gain visibility and greater acceptance in society. Many people on both sides of the gay marriage debate argue their position in terms of the important teaching power of the law.

It would be naive to think that our abortion laws do not carry a similar teaching power. Our abortion system undeniably treats small, dependent human fetuses in the womb as only conditionally valued. They are to be loved, protected and welcomed if wanted by their mothers, but can be killed and discarded if unwanted.

The last 40 years of Roe v Wade have certainly formed our public morality, Rienzi argues, and in a horrifying direction:

It could be that the teaching power of abortion law is eroding more than the moral sense of doctors. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, infant homicide is shockingly common. Its most recent 2002 report suggests that the day a person is born is, by far, the most likely day for them to be killed.

Although more recent statistics concerning day-of-birth homicides are unavailable, a look at homicide rates during the first year of life suggests that infant homicides have become considerably more common since Roe v Wade constitutionalized the right to abortionAccording to the Child Trends Databank using data from the CDC and the NCHS, children less than a year old are roughly twice as likely to be victims of homicide today as in 1970 (a few years before Roe). In 1970, there were 4.3 homicides for every 100,000 children under age one. The rate peaked at 9.2 in 2000 and was at 7.9 in 2010.

It’s time to recognize the pattern and walk back from the dehumanizing public morality of Roe, Rienzi concludes:

A far better choice exists. As a society, we could agree that there really is little difference between killing a being inside and outside the womb. We should admit that our system of abortion law is dehumanizing. The better course is to protect even small voiceless human beings from more powerful people who would rather see them dead, whether that killing happens inside or outside the womb.

Let me close with an anecdote from my previous career in loss prevention and retail security.  I worked with a brilliant visionary on the retailer side of this industry whose specialty was reforming internal operations and creating turnkey systems for loss-prevention departments, and then moving on to another challenge.  He liked to work with our company because we delivered on enforcing strict discipline and oversight, even when personnel in the stores screamed at us for doing so.  He could save retailers millions of dollars within a short period of time by cracking down on internal loss due to employee theft.

He visited us at the end of one particularly difficult implementation to thank us for our work, and to share with us some of the highlights of his investigations, including amazing confessions, surveillance videos, and the staggering amounts of money saved by his changes (and our work).  Toward the end, the LP specialist stopped for a moment and asked us, “Who was morally responsible for these losses?”  Most of us, myself included, said the employees that stole or their supervisors who didn’t pay attention.  No, he responded; the company was responsible for these thefts in a moral sense, because they never bothered to show that the thefts were wrong.  In fact, that was really the driving force behind his passion in loss prevention.

Now, that sounds absurd on its face. Of course theft is wrong, but … did the company stop anyone from robbing them blind?  When employees stole merchandise and then cash with no consequences at all, what were the other employees to think?  When store managers joined in the spree, and the chain did nothing and put no processes in place to stop the thefts, what lessons did that teach the underlings?  If the company didn’t bother to express some sort of moral code for behavior through its rules and enforcement, why would anyone bother to act morally as agents within that organization — especially when the rewards went to those who acted immorally?

That was a powerful lesson about the moral impact of law and how it shapes communities.  How are we shaping our own when we send a signal that we will not act to protect the most vulnerable among us in any degree whatsoever?  What exactly are we rewarding?  In Minnesota, the answer’s pretty clear.

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Good post Ed.

In anything in life when there is no scrutiny there is going to be rampant abuse. It’s a guarantee that Gosnells exist in Minnesota and any other state that refuses to treat abortion clinics like any other medical facility. It amazes me just how stupid the pro-abortion side is on this particular point. All they are doing is setting themselves up for a major backlash against the abortion industry.

NotCoach on May 19, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Besides, what happens if the NAF declines or rescinds accreditation of a clinic in Minnesota? Does the state shut the clinic down, or do they just continue to operate independently? I’d guess it’s the latter, since the law doesn’t have any way right now for the state to intervene.

But, if someone lit up a cigarette in or near a clinic it could be shut doen in a second.

Those wacky leftists and their priorities …

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on May 19, 2013 at 2:20 PM

Now, that sounds absurd on its face. Of course theft is wrong, but … did the company stop anyone from robbing them blind? When employees stole merchandise and then cash with no consequences at all, what were the other employees to think? When store managers joined in the spree, and the chain did nothing and put no processes in place to stop the thefts, what lessons did that teach the underlings?

The lesson it taught the underlings is that “Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.”

There’s a significant lesson there, one that even an atheist like myself can appreciate.

Stoic Patriot on May 19, 2013 at 2:24 PM

All they are doing is setting themselves up for a major backlash against the abortion industry.

NotCoach on May 19, 2013 at 2:17 PM

There may be a major backlash against the industry. But there will never be enough of a backlash to counter teen-pregnancy, incest, rape, assault or even promiscuity. Abortion provides a convenient escape to the irresponsible and unlucky people with unwanted pregnancies.

Morality does not preclude convenience. Sarah Palin has my respect in only one regard. I love the example she set for American mothers who may be face similar struggles to her family.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM

Abortion provides a convenient escape to the irresponsible and unlucky people with unwanted pregnancies.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM

“Irresponsible” and … “unlucky” … so snip a spine.

You are a demented ghoul.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on May 19, 2013 at 2:33 PM

There may be a major backlash against the industry. But there will never be enough of a backlash to counter teen-pregnancy, incest, rape, assault or even promiscuity. Abortion provides a convenient escape to the irresponsible and unlucky people with unwanted pregnancies.

Morality does not preclude convenience. Sarah Palin has my respect in only one regard. I love the example she set for American mothers who may be face similar struggles to her family.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM

All of these existed before abortion was made a “right”, and they will all exist until man no longer exists. But people still are overwhelmingly opposed to abortion for convenience’s sake.

NotCoach on May 19, 2013 at 2:36 PM

The last 40 years of Roe v Wade have certainly formed our public morality, Rienzi argues, and in a horrifying direction:

Look at the 3 women that have spoken out about the goings on at an abortion clinic in Houston. They refer to babies that have been born alive and are breathing on their own as ‘foetuses.’

These are young women, who have been brought up in a culture that, essentially, determines what human life is in a schizophrenic nature. The same ‘foetus’ that is born in the abortion clinic and breathing on its own would be a ‘baby’ if born in a hospital to a mum that wanted it.

They claimed that they did not know that it was illegal to kill a living, breathing, crying and squirming in their hands ‘foetus’ until the Gosnell trial.

Resist We Much on May 19, 2013 at 2:37 PM

Its time to announce the “War on Children”. If the left wants to invent outrage for the sake of conditioning people to think birth control should be free, shouldnt we at least try as hard when something is actually rage inducing, such as killing babies?

If the GOP doesnt have the courage to fight against something as horrific as these homicidal late term abortion practices, what will they fight for? Only the most radical abortion pushers would be dare argue against the end of infanticide. So even at its most superficial and disgustingly political, the issue should be a winner….right?

Or am i missing something?

alecj on May 19, 2013 at 2:41 PM

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM

I would also like to point out that pregnancies resulting from rape or incest don’t belong in the same category as those who seek abortions for convenience’s sake. While I am opposed to taking a life in all cases (except when a mother’s life is truly likely to be forfeit if a child is carried to term), I would support a ban on abortions with a rape and incest exception in the short term. Such a compromise saves 99% of those killed now. Save as many as we can now from convenience’s sake and save the rest later.

NotCoach on May 19, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Telling what leftists refuse to regulate. Infanticide is becoming their favorite commandment in The Cult of Liberalism.

jukin3 on May 19, 2013 at 2:43 PM

“Irresponsible” and … “unlucky” … so snip a spine.

You are a demented ghoul.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on May 19, 2013 at 2:33 PM

I can’t even post my thoughts on this thread as I know I would be rightfully banned. My twin boys turned 17 years old last week and in looking for their BC’s so they could get their learners permits I came across a bunch of their ultrasound pictures. They were born premature and both way under 4 pounds. They are both taller than me now and are the love of my life. I can’t even imagine…….

VegasRick on May 19, 2013 at 2:47 PM

Morality does not preclude convenience.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM

Congratulations. I believe you have posted the most asinine sentence to ever appear in these threads. To note that you beclown thyself would be an understatement, but I no words for clown to the ‘n’th power.

M240H on May 19, 2013 at 2:47 PM

Morality does not preclude convenience.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM

Some can argue that it is more ‘convenient’ for a wealthy man to murder his wife than divorce her.

Resist We Much on May 19, 2013 at 2:49 PM

Congratulations. I believe you have posted the most asinine sentence to ever appear in these threads.

M240H on May 19, 2013 at 2:47 PM

I don’t know, nonintelligent posts here. He seems to be in a league of his own. Everyone else is competing to be top asinine poster in the minors.

NotCoach on May 19, 2013 at 3:01 PM

With the ready availability of Plan B for even ten year olds, and its cheapness, the barbaric practice of abortion doesn’t even need to be done any more except maybe in the most extreme cases. But it’s a sacrament for the Left, the first major victory for the feminist movement. To abandon it would be like a setback for them, so they won’t let go no matter what.

Some can argue that it is more ‘convenient’ for a wealthy man to murder his wife than divorce her.

Resist We Much on May 19, 2013 at 2:49 PM

Great comeback line!

Liam on May 19, 2013 at 3:07 PM

Abortion provides a convenient escape to the irresponsible and unlucky people with unwanted pregnancies.

Capitalist Hog

No one needs a convenient escape in month 8 of a pregnancy.

xblade on May 19, 2013 at 3:12 PM

Are there abortionists in Minnesota?

If so, they are probably Gosnells.

Too soon to assess that Capitalist Hog has entered the “Armin Zone?”

22044 on May 19, 2013 at 3:15 PM

“Irresponsible” and … “unlucky” … so snip a spine.

You are a demented ghoul.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on May 19, 2013 at 2:33 PM

STFU you dolt. I’m anti-abortion. I also realize that men will never be able to control what women think about this issue. Policy won’t change unless women make it happen, which won’t happen.

As to your utterly ridiculous interpretation of my comment allow me. I was disputing his assertion that a backlash against abortion will result in any real change.

I know you have a stake in making me look like some kind of evil person. But you can’t. And when you try you reveal yourself and your intentions. It’s Sunday. I wonder how many of you holy-rollers made it to service.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 3:15 PM

Ed, this is irrelevant and not unlawful and what difference does it make …. but still :

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/05/19/report-obama-administration-apologizes-for-another-national-security-leak/

Menashe tweeted: “The U.S. has apologized to Israel for leaking details of the attack in Syria. Senior administration officials said to their [Israeli] counterparts that they are examining the issue and that low-level [officials] were responsible for the leak.”
Menashe also wrote, “US officials told that they [will] review the matter. The leak forced Assad to react harshly.”

burrata on May 19, 2013 at 3:16 PM

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 3:15 PM

Poor kid.

CW on May 19, 2013 at 3:17 PM

LMFAO, set-up and then straight to hypocrite accusations!

tom daschle concerned on May 19, 2013 at 3:19 PM

Gosnell flourished because he knew the state took no interest in what happened behind the doors of his clinic, even when women died as a result of his actions.

Roe V. Wade made abortion a federal (i.e. non-state) issue. This means it is a societal issue. If the feds are going to say that some slut can kill her child, they must not leave it up to the states to determine the terms of that murder. If abortion is the law of the land, a federal law prohibiting late-term and fourth term abortions should also exist.

Minnesota is run by socialists who rejoice in the “right” of abortion. Hopefully most states are not as hateful of life as Minnesotans (as a culture) are.

Happy Nomad on May 19, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Nobody wants to address the fact that I was disputing his comment with a stark assessment of US abortion policy? That says more about you all than me.

What’s great is that all I have to do is dangle another shiny-object-comment in front of you morons to make you react like Sun Moon followers.

It’s like interactive stand-up.

Round 2. Ding, ding, ding.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 3:26 PM

See you all later, I’m off to do some holy-rolling.

VegasRick on May 19, 2013 at 3:27 PM

Nobody wants to address the fact that I was disputing his comment with a stark assessment of US abortion policy? That says more about you all than me.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 3:26 PM

Abortion provides a convenient escape to the irresponsible and unlucky people with unwanted pregnancies.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM

Seriously? Are you really that dense. Abortion is the murder of an innocent life to ease the concerns and consequences of irresponsible or “unlucky” women.

Happy Nomad on May 19, 2013 at 3:38 PM

Nobody wants to address the fact that I was disputing his comment with a stark assessment of US abortion policy? That says more about you all than me.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 3:26 PM

I believe I addressed this awhile ago:

Why do FATHERS have no rights when it comes to abortion? Will you agree that this is untenable hypocrisy going forward?

nobar on May 18, 2013 at 4:38 PM

And yet no answer was ever given…

nobar on May 19, 2013 at 3:39 PM

Nobody wants to address the fact that I was disputing his comment with a stark assessment of US abortion policy? That says more about you all than me.

What’s great is that all I have to do is dangle another shiny-object-comment in front of you morons to make you react like Sun Moon followers.

It’s like interactive stand-up.

Round 2. Ding, ding, ding.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 3:26 PM

I disputed it. Poll after poll show that a vast majority oppose late-term abortions and abortions for convenience’s sake. The problem though is that far too many are ignorant of the true state of abortion. A majority believe late-term abortions are illegal already. So yes, exposing these shops of horror will open many people’s eyes to facts they are not aware of.

NotCoach on May 19, 2013 at 3:45 PM

I seem to recall on essay by Bill Whittle from way back which touched on the loss prevention aspect of this article. About how if good people see the law ignored often enough so that it becomes obvious that only those who break it prosper, eventually they begin to break it too.

Basically, over the last few decades the left has been working to turn us from a nation of laws into a nation of men. And unless you are one of the chosen men, or willing to do whatever wrong, immoral, normally illegal, act(s) it takes to become one, you and your family lose.

LibraryGryffon on May 19, 2013 at 3:56 PM

dayton and the moonbat dfl are baby killers and encouragers of sin….I like the suggestion that we should call abortion the war on children…..Minnesota you let the prepubescents run the state, enjoy your state government you boneheads….also, have all the churches gone left in Minnesota, where were the Bible believing churches during the dfl lie fest about the marriage amendment…where have they been for the abortion battle…there aren;t enough of us praying at abortion clinics, that is for sure….remember what Scripture says about being lukewarm…..

crosshugger on May 19, 2013 at 4:06 PM

I’m in rural Minnesota working with MN National Guard soldiers right now and most people I’ve met, even the non-military people seem fairly conservative. How did Minnesota become so DFL/Dem/Liberal controlled? Lot’s of hunters and fisherman types that don’t normally seem to be Al Franken fans. But I did see a car with “peacemonger” and Al Franken bumper stickers on it in the local Wal-Mart parking lot even. I kinda wanted to wait around to see just what kind of person puts that on their car but I have a life and had work to do so I moved on my way…

Big John on May 19, 2013 at 4:28 PM

I think there are likely many Gosnell’s…all over the country.

workingclass artist on May 19, 2013 at 4:49 PM

Because the Dems constantly label Republicans when they talk, it is time we start calling out democrats when they are responsible.

DEMOCRAT Governor Mark Dayton. DEMOCRAT Nancy Pelosi, DEMOCRAT president, DEMOCRAT Harry Reid.

Remember LIVs hear about those bad Rs all the time – we need to push back.

MN J on May 19, 2013 at 4:57 PM

the company was responsible for these thefts in a moral sense

so blaming bush happens elsewhere too….

dmacleo on May 19, 2013 at 5:18 PM

Because the Dems constantly label Republicans when they talk, it is time we start calling out democrats when they are responsible.

DEMOCRAT Governor Mark Dayton. DEMOCRAT Nancy Pelosi, DEMOCRAT president, DEMOCRAT Harry Reid.

MN J on May 19, 2013 at 4:57 PM

Absolutely. Dems are not worthy allies with a different viewpoint. They want to destroy this nation and are not above burying the truth to do so. We on the right need to start attaching labels to these anti-American bastards. The LIVs are too damned stupid to apply critical analysis to reach their own conclusions.

Happy Nomad on May 19, 2013 at 5:19 PM

Look at the 3 women that have spoken out about the goings on at an abortion clinic in Houston. They refer to babies that have been born alive and are breathing on their own as ‘foetuses.’
..
They claimed that they did not know that it was illegal to kill a living, breathing, crying and squirming in their hands ‘foetus’ until the Gosnell trial.

Resist We Much on May 19, 2013 at 2:37 PM

What would a young person think when their schools, television, news outlets teach this practice is the humane solution

I give them credit for an inner conscience that was recoiling against what they had been taught. The heavy weight of society and law is a powerful teacher.

In college I refused to pith (scramble with a straight pin) the brain of a living frog so it would not have use of its limbs while I cut open the chest just to get a look at a beating heart. I and the few others who also refused wondered how we would be punished. Today, I would be congratulated by fellow students for sparing the frog, but if I tried to stop the pithing of a living infant in utero, I would be condemned by the same students

By the way, when you pith a frog, it does just what an infant does when you suck or scramble the brains: the limbs extend in a spasm, and then go limp. Tears

Who stands beside you? The opponents of even late term abortion are derided as cruel and barbaric by the standard setters of this society. From President to The View to Cable News

We see simulated sex, toilet acts, and documented animal cruelty on television but we are kept from equal exposure to the Gosnell cruelties. People have to see it with their eyes to be changed.

That is why Drudge got kicked off FOX. He wanted to show a fetus pic

entagor on May 19, 2013 at 7:33 PM

Gun dealers, who sell weapons of self-defense to people who wish to be able to protect human life, go through far more extensive periodic reviews and investigations than abortion clinics whose only purpose is to end human life, and who do it on a massive scale.

There is something completely wrong!

Another Drew on May 19, 2013 at 8:30 PM

Gun dealers, who sell weapons of self-defense to people who wish to be able to protect human life, go through far more extensive periodic reviews and investigations than abortion clinics whose only purpose is to end human life, and who do it on a massive scale.

There is something completely wrong!

Another Drew on May 19, 2013 at 8:30 PM

Next time you are in a grocery store, note the inspection label on each of the weigh-scales in the checkouts. Your state inspects them several times a year, probably a guy from the Department of Agriculture.

slickwillie2001 on May 19, 2013 at 8:47 PM

Heart broken over this Holocaust… We wanted a second child so much, there still is a loving home waiting for a child and a fantastic big brother regardless of race…

Tilly on May 19, 2013 at 9:10 PM

We have at least one here in Houston(allegedly and being ignored and not investigated)

Corsair on May 19, 2013 at 9:11 PM

Morons.

Is this how you go through life? You keep trying to challenge me until you find some point with which you can disagree and earn your hardcore bona fides.

That’s fine. But you have to realize how stupid you look by constantly shifting the baseline for your arguments all the while ignoring the rudiments of mine.

Here’s a challenge. Prove me wrong.
Show me how a few enthusiastic pro-lifers are going to sway abortion policy. That has not happened yet. Planned Parenthood is as influential as it has ever been.

How will your phony-outrage online change that? What did I say that was wrong?

And yet no answer was ever given…

nobar on May 19, 2013 at 3:39 PM

It’s called Life. Live it in real-time once in a while, douche-nozzle.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 10:44 PM

The lesson it taught the underlings is that “Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.”

There’s a significant lesson there, one that even an atheist like myself can appreciate.

Stoic Patriot on May 19, 2013 at 2:24 PM

One of the moral lessons of the Jewish and Christian religions (and probably others, but I’m more familiar with these two) is that there is a “higher management” prescribing a rule of conduct which forbids theft, even if it is ubiquitous and profitable.

The Lord has a different permission structure than does the world.

AesopFan on May 19, 2013 at 11:35 PM

Here’s a challenge. Prove me wrong. Show me how a few enthusiastic pro-lifers are going to sway abortion policy. That has not happened yet. Planned Parenthood is as influential as it has ever been.

How will your phony-outrage online change that? What did I say that was wrong?

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 10:44 PM

You’re not wrong in the technical sense, though I don’t agree with the general tenor of your argument. Ironic that it took Kermit Gosnell to really change the national conversation on abortion. I think that the conversation will change even further as more like him are discovered, and make no mistake, more like Gosnell will be discovered.

No matter how right you are in the technical sense, you are not going to overcome people’s general moral repuganance at the thought of utilitarianism. Not all, but a vast majority of those who call themselves pro-choice find Gosnell’s practices to be instinctively revolting. They may not be able to articulate why, but they do. As long as that remains the case, your arguments will ring hollow to the vast majority of commenters here.

gryphon202 on May 20, 2013 at 5:30 AM

Here’s a challenge. Prove me wrong. Show me how a few enthusiastic pro-lifers are going to sway abortion policy. That has not happened yet. Planned Parenthood is as influential as it has ever been.

How will your phony-outrage online change that? What did I say that was wrong?

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 10:44 PM

First off douchebag- how dare you decide what is legtimate outrage and what is phony-outrage. People are passionate about the sanctity of life even if cold worthless bastards think about it.

Secondly, let’s review what you said….

Abortion provides a convenient escape to the irresponsible and unlucky people with unwanted pregnancies.

Capitalist Hog on May 19, 2013 at 2:29 PM

You don’t value life, just the ability of a bar slut (probably just like your mom and/or wife) to avoid having unwanted CHILDREN. If your mom wants to avoid unwanted preganancies, there are ways to do that without killing a child. Too bad she wasn’t smart enough to figure that before you were born.

Happy Nomad on May 20, 2013 at 7:33 AM

entagor on May 19, 2013 at 7:33 PM

You are incorrect – FNC did a special on Gosnell entitled – See No Evil.

For those questioning IF there are more Gosnell’s –
Look up
George Tiller, about to be taken to trial for violating KS late term abortion laws – protected by then KS Gov Kathleen Sebelius.
Robert Anderson – MI ‘doctor’ who left decapitated baby head inside the womb in a botched abortion
Douglas Karpen who is being investigated in TX for twisting the heads off of babies
and Leroy Carhart – these are all who have come to light just lately

Capitalist – You are correct and wrong. Yes, since 1973 – the Pro-Life movement has not been able to overturn Roe v Wade. But many things have happened since then – the rise of the Internet (see Lila Rose), a general change in societal views (please, look at any of the current scandals – to see how America views the media spin on issues), a vast change is the viability of infants, the exposure that both Roe and Doe claim that their lawyers lied to them and the courts about the nature of their cases and more importantly – Gosnell.

Gosnell will do more to bring about some control of abortion than anything the Pro-Life movement has done. The real exposure of the Gosnell trial is that Roe v Wade did nothing to make abortion safe or rare – it just made it almost impossible to charge these people with a crime. And I think even Congress will move to change or (to use the phrase du jour – ‘reform’) it.

jackal40 on May 20, 2013 at 8:53 AM

I had an abortion in 1972. I was 16 weeks pregnant and so I allowed myself to be subject to a “saline” abortion. I was 18 years old at the time. If I understand correctly, saline abortions are now illegal due to the high risk to the mother. (Go ahead and Google “saline abortion.” It will make your hair stand up.)

This was probably the most horrible experience of my life… I did get very ill and had to be hospitalized twice after the abortion.
I won’t go into my thinking about having this abortion. I will just say that an average 18 year old female does not have enough life experience to judge the risks and the morality of the procedure.

Certainly I did not have any idea about a sterile environment or actions to take if the baby was born alive. Neither of these occurred to me. I was at a “doctor’s office.”

I am very much in favor of regulating abortion clinics as “out patient surgical facilities” because that is exactly what they are. IMO abortion is here to stay. But women like the 18 year old me can be safeguarded with reasonable inspection of these facilities.

I actually got to spend some “quality time” with my aborted son due to the saline procedure. He would be 42 this year… He was taken out of the room in a paper bucket much like a KFC bucket.

I never buy chicken by the bucket. Can’t stand to look at the thing.

Babs on April 7, 2014 at 1:39 PM