Gallup: Abortion views steady as media ignores Gosnell trial

posted at 12:01 pm on May 10, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Americans may not be terribly aware of the trial of Kermit Gosnell,  but they are aware of who to blame for their ignorance. Gallup’s latest survey shows that only 25% of the public are following the trial somewhat or very closely, and only 33% of self-identified pro-life adults.  Fifty-five percent of adults aren’t following the case at all.  However, pluralities in both groups believe that the media hasn’t done enough to report on the multiple-murder case in Philadelphia:

One-quarter of Americans say they have followed news of the case either very closely (7%) or somewhat closely (18%), but that is well below the 61% average level of attention Americans have paid to the more than 200 news stories Gallup has measured since 1991. An additional 20% of Americans say they are following Gosnell case “not too closely” while 54% say “not at all.” This makes the Gosnell case one of the least followed news stories Gallup has measured. …

It is not clear from the data whether Americans’ relatively low attention to the Gosnell case reflects a lack of interest in it, or a lack of coverage by the mainstream media. However, nearly half of those following the case, 46%, say the media have not devoted enough coverage to it. That compares with 20% saying the media have devoted too much coverage and 27% saying the right amount.

The strong tilt toward saying there has not been enough coverage as opposed to too much coverage partly reflects the heavy representation of pro-life respondents among those who were asked the question.

Even among the entire sample, those saying that the case hasn’t gotten enough coverage exceeds by more than a 2:1 ratio those who say it’s received too much (21/9).  For those following the case, it’s also more than 2:1 at 46/20.

With the media doing little to shed light on the Gosnell house of horrors, it’s not too surprising that the lack of new data means that views on abortion haven’t changed much:

As Philadelphia abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell awaits the jury verdict in his capital murder trial, Gallup finds 26% of Americans saying abortion should be legal under any circumstances and 20% saying it should be illegal in all circumstances. The majority, 52%, opt for something in between, as has been the case in nearly every Gallup measure of this question since 1975.

Current views on the legality of abortion, based on Gallup’s annual Values and Beliefs poll, conducted May 2-7, are nearly identical to those from Gallup’s prior measures in December and May 2012. More generally, they are similar to what Gallup has found for most of the past decade, except for a brief period between 2005 and 2006, when the balance of the two absolutist positions tilted more heavily in favor of abortion being legal in all circumstances. …

Although the latest Gallup survey was conducted after much of the testimony in this trial had already been reported in the news, the stability in Americans’ views about the legality of abortion suggests the trial has not swayed public opinion. Part of the reason could be that relatively few Americans are paying attention to the case.

And that might be by design, no? After all, if the news media doesn’t bother to cover it — or only covers it as a media story, rather than report the testimony in detail — why would anyone change their minds about abortion?  Other than the few reporters who have to listen to the testimony in person, of course.

Kathryn Jean Lopez sees a glimmer of hope in the attention the case has received:

But here, we have the opportunity for redemption, too, in the wake of 40 years of euphemisms that led to newborn snips for in the name of “women’s health.” It’s going to be a long haul of investigation and introspection. But it’s our moral and civic duty to quit looking away from the horrific injustice being done to the innocent unborn — and newborns marked for abortion — and women. I give Leroy Carhart credit for at least being forthright with the truth in Live Action’s most recent undercover video, that abortion changes you, and that a late-term abortion means killing a baby.

Kirsten Powers gets it. Marlin Stutzman gets it. Mollie Heminway gets it. Rich Lowry gets it. Robby George and Ramesh, of course, get it. Jonah gets it. The list does, thankfully, go on — but there is a whole lot of awakening yet to happen.

Perhaps that’s what the media fears.


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Shouldn’t that be: “Abortion opinions steady as media ignores Gosnell trial” ?

oldroy on May 10, 2013 at 12:06 PM

This Gosnell character needs to fry. It’s infanticide. Own it, chumps.

ICBMMan on May 10, 2013 at 12:06 PM

Or maybe: “Public has no knowledge of Gosnell trial and other gruesome abortion providers including Planned Parenthood who’ve done the same thing” ?

oldroy on May 10, 2013 at 12:07 PM

Or maybe: “Opinions remain steady as media blacks out coverage of minority baby murders” ?

oldroy on May 10, 2013 at 12:12 PM

What the MSM chooses to ignore and not report is the most obvious evidence of their agenda. It goes beyond simple bias.

Especially when it becomes obvious they are sticking their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes, and making lalalalalala noises.

farsighted on May 10, 2013 at 12:14 PM

Jody Arias killed a man, and male victims are obviously more important than progeny or females.

That’s the view brought to you by ABC, CBS and the channels of NBC.

MTF on May 10, 2013 at 12:15 PM

Shouldn’t that be: “Abortion opinions steady as media ignores Gosnell trial” ?

oldroy on May 10, 2013 at 12:06 PM

Actually, it should be “media ignore.”

steebo77 on May 10, 2013 at 12:16 PM

Actually, it should be “media ignore.”

steebo77 on May 10, 2013 at 12:16 PM

Thanks. Is media plural in this case?

oldroy on May 10, 2013 at 12:18 PM

They’re still in deliberation right? I’m guessing for a hung jury. You know there’s a staunch pro-choice in there that is pig headed.

mrscullen on May 10, 2013 at 12:18 PM

This has been the way it has since the inception of roe vs wade. They would not allow pictures back then and now they cover up infanticide. Do you see a trnd when it comes to liberals…they cover up killing babies, they cover up killing 4 brave Americans in Benghazi. Are there any democrats that are not liars anymore. I guess when they sanction killing innocent babies, lying is not that bad on their radar….

crosshugger on May 10, 2013 at 12:19 PM

It is not being covered for this reason

There is one journalist sitting in that courtroom who writes for a local publication who has told me that he is very liberal, very pro-choice, but after sitting through the testimony in the Gosnell trial, he’s reconsidered. He’s changed his mind.

Gosnell pulls the curtain back from the inherent violence of abortion. You can’t sit in that courtroom and learn about what abortion does to the unborn child and to the woman in many cases. You can’t sit there day after day and week after week and listen to that testimony and not be changed, and not have a change of heart, or at least reconsider your position.

Resist We Much on May 10, 2013 at 12:20 PM

s/b trend in my second sentence

crosshugger on May 10, 2013 at 12:20 PM

This is the pinnacle of the feminist movement, and the capstone of the Communist Party [and isn’t that fitting, inasmuch as Communism is always associated with massacre?].

OhEssYouCowboys on May 10, 2013 at 12:24 PM

If a homosexual gets murdered, it’s all over the news, they make movies about it, they have benefit concerts to raise awareness, & new laws are passed.

If up to a hundred babies get murdered after birth, the media/Hollywood axis blurts, “What difference does it make?”

itsnotaboutme on May 10, 2013 at 12:25 PM

Jody Arias killed a man, and male victims are obviously more important than progeny or females.

That’s the view brought to you by ABC, CBS and the channels of NBC.

MTF on May 10, 2013 at 12:15 PM

Well, itis true, after all, that male victims of any level of domestic abuse have been ignored for too long, so I am pleased that the Arias case has received media scrutiny.

bmmg39 on May 10, 2013 at 12:25 PM

Jody Arias killed a man, and male victims are obviously more important than progeny or females.

That’s the view brought to you by ABC, CBS and the channels of NBC.

MTF on May 10, 2013 at 12:15 PM

I think it is even more simplistic than that Arizona allows cameras in the Courtroom. Pennsylvania does not. If any of the MSM wanted to cover the Gosnell trial with the same zeal they did Arias, they would have to get Honey Boo Boo or one of the Kardashians to do the reporting.

The news programming is all about entertainment and not about, well, the news. Otherwise the public would know about Gosnell. They would be asking all the questions about Benghazi some of us have been asking since last September (it really is a joy when one of the low-info’s mind starts turning). And nobody would ever hear about the whereabouts of Lohan, the political opinions of Sean Penn, or all the other crap that litters real news coverage.

Happy Nomad on May 10, 2013 at 12:34 PM

If up to a hundred babies get murdered after birth, the media/Hollywood axis blurts, “What difference does it make?”

itsnotaboutme on May 10, 2013 at 12:25 PM

Except when they can manipulate those deaths to further part of the liberal agenda. Those despicable vultures of Newtown victims proved that.

Happy Nomad on May 10, 2013 at 12:35 PM

Just so we’re all on the same page here: the media, in collusion with our government, is deliberately failing to report–even actively squelching–a story about a mad doctor who delights in the murder of newborn babies because widespread reporting of the story might adversely affect The Great Utopian Liberal Narrative in general and governmental abortion policy in particular.

Horrific. Monstrous. Unconscionable. And I just don’t mean Gosnell’s crimes.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 12:39 PM

Interesting historical note: Republican abolitionists were considered the radicals of their day. Just thought I’d bring it up. No particular reason.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 12:40 PM

Alternate headline: Ed Morrissey Sad that Americans recognize Kermit Gosnell as A Major Outlier.

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Interesting historical note: Republican abolitionists were considered the radicals of their day. Just thought I’d bring it up. No particular reason.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 12:40 PM

They were northerners and their descendants are today’s new england liberals…..

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM

The media have to ignore this much as possible, because it happens all too often (despite what trolls want to claim), and there are areas where death will become part of society. There will be euthanasia, assisted suicide, acceptance of the denial of medical care for certain persons because of ‘lack of funds’ — a whole menu of future options chosen or imposed for the ‘good of society’.

Liam on May 10, 2013 at 12:48 PM

Alternate headline: Ed Morrissey Sad that Americans recognize Kermit Gosnell as A Major Outlier.

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Hey, no matter what Gallup polling says, it has been proven that Gosnell was not an outlier. Had he stuck to murdering children and not messing with fake perscriptions he would still be at it.

Happy Nomad on May 10, 2013 at 12:49 PM

Leftists are never liberal or progressive.

In this case they, incl. Obama, are for infanticide, in this century, just like China and India.

Hawking is boycotting Israel. He should boycott the USA.

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 12:49 PM

Interesting historical note: Republican abolitionists were considered the radicals of their day. Just thought I’d bring it up. No particular reason.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 12:40 PM

Well since we’re being random trivia this afternoon, the temperance movement was really about ending domestic abuse.

Happy Nomad on May 10, 2013 at 12:51 PM

libtard, you’re looked for in this thread.

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 12:51 PM

Alternate headline: Ed Morrissey Sad that Americans recognize Kermit Gosnell as A Major Outlier.

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Except that he’s not.

Resist We Much on May 10, 2013 at 12:52 PM

They were northerners and their descendants are today’s new england liberals…..

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Non sequitur. Modern-day liberals are not the spritual or ideological descendants of the abolitionists. If anything, they claim Marx as their father, who would make all of us slaves–which is equality of a sort, I suppose.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 12:52 PM

They were northerners and their descendants are today’s new england liberals…..

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Does your mind even engage when you type stupid (and wrong) crap like this? You truly are the Cliff Clavin of HA.

Happy Nomad on May 10, 2013 at 12:52 PM

They were northerners and their descendants are today’s new england liberals…..

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM

So phucking what. One of your ancestors may have actually been intelligent and contributed to society. You not so much…phucktard.

HumpBot Salvation on May 10, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Alternate headline: Ed Morrissey Sad that Americans recognize Kermit Gosnell as A Major Outlier.

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Alternate, alternate headline: Brainfreeordie Ecstatic that Media has Successfully Embargoed this Story

You don’t even try to be serious anymore, do you? Being a trolling moron more your speed?

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 12:56 PM

They were northerners and their descendants are today’s new england liberals…..

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM

And they were deeply religious individuals whose faith guided them towards being abolitionists. I wonder how sad they would be today to see what has become of their descendants.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 12:58 PM

And they were deeply religious individuals whose faith guided them towards being abolitionists.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 12:58 PM

It is that detail the Left wants overlooked. This new meme that the Abolitionists were the liberals of their day is a pitiful attempt to gain validation by the Left in this modern world. Except that the Abolitionists sought life and its better quality, while liberals aim at death with their pro-infanticide stance.

Religious people back then are little different from religious people of today. We never changed. Then again, neither have Democrats, really.

Liam on May 10, 2013 at 1:07 PM

Right wing propaganda failing to change American views on women’s right to privacy and control over their own bodies. Good news.

lester on May 10, 2013 at 1:08 PM

They were northerners and their descendants are today’s new england liberals…..

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Does your mind even engage when you type stupid (and wrong) crap like this? You truly are the Cliff Clavin of HA.

Happy Nomad on May 10, 2013 at 12:52 PM

Never mind libslaveordie, it descended from monkeys.

kirkill on May 10, 2013 at 1:11 PM

Right wing propaganda failing to change American views on women’s right to privacy and control over their own bodies. Good news.

lester on May 10, 2013 at 1:08 PM

So Gosnell isn’t a murderer?

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 1:13 PM

Right wing propaganda failing to change American views on women’s right to privacy and control over their own bodies. Good news.

lester on May 10, 2013 at 1:08 PM

And how many liberal males would freak if the woman they got pregnant decided to keep the baby, and demand he pay child-support? That ‘control over their own bodies’ line would vanish from many of their heads real quick.

Liam on May 10, 2013 at 1:17 PM

99% of democrats think Kermit Gosnell is a character on the Muppets.

And then you have tards like Lester who thinks running live babies thru blenders = a woman’s right to privacy and control over their own bodies.

And considers it good news that the media blacked this story out.

Pathetic.

HumpBot Salvation on May 10, 2013 at 1:37 PM

Jody Arias killed a man, and male victims are obviously more important than progeny or females.

That’s the view brought to you by ABC, CBS and the channels of NBC.

MTF on May 10, 2013 at 12:15 PM

Not really–Ariel Castro kidnapped and raped three women, and that’s getting a lot of media attention.

But the media couldn’t care less about unborn babies, even when they’re old enough to survive outside the womb. They don’t want the reality and the butchery of abortion to become apparent to women, in the name of “women’s right to choose”.

All of us were once in the womb, and need to be thankful that our mothers never saw Gosnell or his ilk. It would be poetic justice if Gosnell was convicted on Mother’s Day!!!

And how many liberal males would freak if the woman they got pregnant decided to keep the baby, and demand he pay child-support? That ‘control over their own bodies’ line would vanish from many of their heads real quick.

Liam on May 10, 2013 at 1:17 PM

This is where the “exception for rape and incest” which brought down Todd Akin and Mourdock comes in. If abortion was illegal except in cases of rape or incest, some of these “liberal males” who like sex but not babies could be accused of rape, and some of them might think twice before having sex.

The Gallup poll shows clear a majority for abortion being illegal with certain exceptions. Since only a small fraction of abortions are on rape victims, a restriction to ONLY rape and incest victims would drastically reduce the number of aborted babies, while leaving women reassured that they need not keep the child of a rapist, and such a position could also win elections.

Steve Z on May 10, 2013 at 1:38 PM

Alternate headline: Ed Morrissey Sad that Americans recognize Kermit Gosnell as A Major Outlier.

libfreeordie on May 10, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Alternate, alternate headline: Brainfreeordie Ecstatic that Media has Successfully Embargoed this Story

You don’t even try to be serious anymore, do you? Being a trolling moron more your speed?

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 12:56 PM

Besides that, note the MSM has no problem providing extensive coverage and reporting about the deeds and legal troubles of outliers like Jody Arias and Ariel Castro.

farsighted on May 10, 2013 at 1:40 PM

99% of democrats think Kermit Gosnell is a character on the Muppets.

Which is why only Miss Piggy could fall in love with him.

Steve Z on May 10, 2013 at 1:40 PM

With the media doing little to shed light on the Gosnell house of horrors, it’s not too surprising that the lack of new data means that views on abortion haven’t changed much:

Views on abortion haven’t changed because not enough people have heard of the Gosnell case? Hey, it’s as good an excuse as any for the failed overreach of anti-abortion zealots who have been reveling in the details of Gosnell’s alleged crimes (remember, he hasn’t been convicted yet).

Just as waving signs with pictures of aborted fetuses outside of clinics has been a failure, so will the Gosnell case fail to move the anti-abortion cause forward.

Why?

Because many people understand that what Gosnell is accused of doing has no bearing or relationship to the question of whether a woman should have access to safe, legal abortion.

You anti-abortion types will never figure that out, which is why you will never win.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM

Kirsten Powers, self-described liberal…

But medical advances since Roe v. Wade have made it clear to me that late-term abortion is not a moral gray area, and we need to stop pretending it is. No six-months-pregnant woman is picking out names for her “fetus.” It’s a baby. Let’s stop playing Orwellian word games. We are talking about human beings here.

How is this OK? Even liberal Europe gets this. In France, Germany, Italy, and Norway, abortion is illegal after 12 weeks. In addition to the life-of-mother exception, they provide narrow health exceptions that require approval from multiple doctors or in some cases going before a board. In the U.S., if you suggest such stringent regulation and oversight of later-term abortions, you are tarred within seconds by the abortion rights movement as a misogynist who doesn’t “trust women.”

Speaking as a liberal who endorses more government regulation of practically everything—banks, water, air, food, oil drilling, animal safety—I am eternally perplexed by the fury the abortion rights contingent displays at the suggestion that the government might have a serious role to play in the issue of abortion, especially later-term abortion.

farsighted on May 10, 2013 at 2:01 PM

You anti-abortion types will never figure that out, which is why you will never win.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM

Abortinists are now performing very legal late-term abortions, inducing labor and aborting babies up to the ninth month moment of birth. We’re not talking about inchoate ‘lumps of cells’ here. They’re babies, tiny and helpless and fully formed human beings, equipped with consciousness and self-awareness, fully capable of feeling, including pain. That’s infanticide. That’s monstrous. That’s murder.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 2:08 PM

Why?

Because many people understand that what Gosnell is accused of doing has no bearing or relationship to the question of whether a woman should have access to safe, legal abortion.

You anti-abortion types will never figure that out, which is why you will never win.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM

So ask your friends and family about Gosnell and describe the facts of the case to them. You can make these claims all you want, but the simple fact is that the media successfully embargoed the Gosnell trial.

Why?

You pro-baby killer types fear the truth coming out and count on the ignorance of the general populace to keep abortion legal. If more people were exposed to the likes of Gosnell your claims in this post would evaporate in an instant. People don’t think the way you claim they do because the media does a very good job of not reporting uncomfortable truths about abortion. And pro-baby killers also do a very good job of getting abortion clinics treated like holy sanctuaries where inspections do not happen. You tell me how that is good for women’s health and how the public wouldn’t react with revulsion if they knew this (which, generally speaking, they don’t).

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 2:10 PM

Besides that, note the MSM has no problem providing extensive coverage and reporting about the deeds and legal troubles of outliers like Jody Arias and Ariel Castro.

farsighted on May 10, 2013 at 1:40 PM

CNN’s wall to wall coverage of the Arias trial was especially disgusting. They are not a news organization.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 2:12 PM

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM

This case is not about abortion.

This case is about infanticide in America, in this century, sactioned by you and Obama, just like in India and China.

YOU are the same as them.

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 2:14 PM

Right wing propaganda failing to change American views on women’s right to privacy and control over their own bodies. Good news.

lester on May 10, 2013 at 1:08 PM

You can attempt to change the subject all you want, gnatbrains, you and all around.

This is about infanticide, in this century, in America, sanctioned by you, all of yours here and Obama, just like in China and India.

You are all culpable. This is NOT about abortion. This is about killing people, children especially, and women too.

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 2:17 PM

So ask your friends and family about Gosnell and describe the facts of the case to them. You can make these claims all you want, but the simple fact is that the media successfully embargoed the Gosnell trial.

Nonsense.

It’s been in the papers, it’s beenn online and on the TV news. You know about it. I know about it. Anyone interested in the case can follow it and get all of the information publically available.

To the chagrin of the right, it hasn’t been the watershed moment in the abortion issue that they were hoping for. So, what to do?
Blame the media, of course. It’s all the right is truly good at.

You pro-baby killer types fear the truth coming out and count on the ignorance of the general populace to keep abortion legal. If more people were exposed to the likes of Gosnell your claims in this post would evaporate in an instant. People don’t think the way you claim they do because the media does a very good job of not reporting uncomfortable truths about abortion. And pro-baby killers also do a very good job of getting abortion clinics treated like holy sanctuaries where inspections do not happen. You tell me how that is good for women’s health and how the public wouldn’t react with revulsion if they knew this (which, generally speaking, they don’t).

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 2:10 PM

Second verse, same as the first.

Understand: the Gosnell case will not subtantially alter the abortion debate in this country, no matter how much you want it to. As long as you frame the issue as “abortion is murder” while ignoring the issue of reproductive rights, you will lose.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM

This case is not about abortion.

Correct! No tell that to your anti-abortion cohorts who have been trying desperately for weeks to make it about abortion.

This case is about infanticide in America, in this century, sactioned by you and Obama, just like in India and China.

Wrong.

YOU are the same as them.

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 2:14 PM

And wrong again.
One out of three. You’ve increased your accuracy by 33%!

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 2:30 PM

You are all culpable. This is NOT about abortion. This is about killing people, children especially, and women too.

I agree, it’s not about abortion. You need to tell this to Ed and all the other pro-lifers here who seem to think that it is. Or maybe they’re dishonestly trying to make it about abortion for political reasons? Shameful.

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 2:32 PM

Nonsense.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM

So you didn’t actually read the polling data Ed posted. Your ignorance makes it unnecessary to respond to anything else in your post. And go and describe the Gosnell case to your friends and family.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 2:32 PM

I agree, it’s not about abortion. You need to tell this to Ed and all the other pro-lifers here who seem to think that it is. Or maybe they’re dishonestly trying to make it about abortion for political reasons? Shameful.

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 2:32 PM

So, Armin. Engage in a little thought exercise for me here. It’s not about abortion. Okay. I get it. I’ll entertain that little saw for you. If everyone who did what Gosnell did were prosecuted, and such prosecution brought abortion to a de facto grinding halt, would you be in favor of prosecuting all “abortionists” who are found to have done what Gosnell did?

I eagerly await your answer.

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 2:42 PM

I agree, it’s not about abortion. You need to tell this to Ed and all the other pro-lifers here who seem to think that it is. Or maybe they’re dishonestly trying to make it about abortion for political reasons? Shameful.

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 2:32 PM

Both of you are wrong. It is very much about abortion and the POLITICS of abortion. Gosnell was able to get away with his crimes because his clinic hadn’t been inspected in 17 years- unprecedented in other areas of the “medical” field and outpatient surgery. THe last WOMAN Gosnell killed died because it took the paramedics 20 minutes to get into the clinic to her. The door that was accessible to her was locked and no staff member had the key.

And despite what chump, lib and you say- we really don’t know if this is a rarity. Gosnell only got caught because he was selling drugs. No one cared about low income women… Illinois recently found that NONE of their abortion clinics had been inspected in 15 years. Compare that to the laws on nail salons and get back to me..

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 2:46 PM

So, Armin. Engage in a little thought exercise for me here. It’s not about abortion. Okay. I get it. I’ll entertain that little saw for you. If everyone who did what Gosnell did were prosecuted, and such prosecution brought abortion to a de facto grinding halt, would you be in favor of prosecuting all “abortionists” who are found to have done what Gosnell did?

I eagerly await your answer.

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Your hypothetical is so dumb, it’s not even worth seriously considering. It’s as stupid as replacing Gosnell with “Adam Lanza” or some other mass shooter and “abortion” with “gun ownership”. It’s a scenario that does not and could not exist.

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 2:50 PM

Understand: the Gosnell case will not subtantially alter the abortion debate in this country, no matter how much you want it to. As long as you frame the issue as “abortion is murder” while ignoring the issue of reproductive rights, you will lose.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM

Again: reproductive ‘rights’ stop the moment the fetus is recognized as a human being, which–until recently–was the third trimester. Reproductive rights don’t encompass the right to murder.

By the way, 42% of minority women in New York City have had at least one abortion in their lifetimes, so where’s the ‘rare’ part of ‘safe, legal, and rare’, anyway? As an aside, the Imperial Wizard of the KKK couldn’t come up with a better plan to decimate the black community if he tried.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 2:54 PM

Both of you are wrong. It is very much about abortion and the POLITICS of abortion. Gosnell was able to get away with his crimes because his clinic hadn’t been inspected in 17 years- unprecedented in other areas of the “medical” field and outpatient surgery. THe last WOMAN Gosnell killed died because it took the paramedics 20 minutes to get into the clinic to her. The door that was accessible to her was locked and no staff member had the key.

How does the fact that Gosnell violated accepted health and safety standards make his case about the politics of abortion?

And despite what chump, lib and you say- we really don’t know if this is a rarity. Gosnell only got caught because he was selling drugs. No one cared about low income women… Illinois recently found that NONE of their abortion clinics had been inspected in 15 years. Compare that to the laws on nail salons and get back to me..

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 2:46 PM

So lax standards are upgraded and strictly enforced, you will no longer oppose abortion?

If not, what point are you trying to make?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 2:56 PM

Your hypothetical is so dumb, it’s not even worth seriously considering. It’s as stupid as replacing Gosnell with “Adam Lanza” or some other mass shooter and “abortion” with “gun ownership”. It’s a scenario that does not and could not exist.

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 2:50 PM

Let’s set aside the babies for a second, since we all know that you don’t care about them.. Prochoicers claim they care about the woman yet Gosnell was able to several times hold patients and cause further harm because he didn’t want medical malpractice problems. The clinic would wait to call the hospital. Guess what? Apparently Adam Lanza Gosnell was not the only clinic that did that- from Chicago:

New documents a local CBS television station obtained in the case of a young African-American woman killed in a fatal botched legal abortion show Planned Parenthood waited over five hours before sending the woman to a local hospital for emergency care.
Steve Miller of the CBS news affiliate WBBM has released a new report showing documents released in the botched abortion death of Tonya Reaves that alarmingly shows Planned Parenthood delayed summoning emergency care for the dying woman for five and a half hours after the abortion failed.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 2:58 PM

So lax standards are upgraded and strictly enforced, you will no longer oppose abortion?

If not, what point are you trying to make?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 2:56 PM

I still wouldn’t support it and never said I did, but standards are NEVER going to get upgraded. Why? Because pro-aboritonist fight them every step of the way. They know that the more regulated the industry; the less access to it see Mississippi standards for an indication on how the fight will go.

I would never support abortion, because I have counseled women who have had one. Abortion victimizes the woman almost as bad as the baby.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:01 PM

How does the fact that Gosnell violated accepted health and safety standards make his case about the politics of abortion?

Because he never would have been able to violate the standards if the state hadn’t been complicit. Gosnell had FIVE medical malpractice cases against. He killed at least two women prior to the one he is charged with. In the 1990′s, a local pediatrician made a complaint against him because he noticed a rash of STD’S coming out of his clinic. Gosnell was giving women STDS by reusing instruments. He was never a board certified OB/GYN, but that didn’t stop him from giving a license.

Name ANY OTHER medical industry this could have happened in without the state interceding.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:04 PM

I would never support abortion, because I have counseled women who have had one. Abortion victimizes the woman almost as bad as the baby.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:01 PM

No, it doesn’t. Death trumps a guilty conscience.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 3:05 PM

Gosnell had FIVE medical malpractice cases agains*

Gosnell had FIVE medical malpractice cases against him that resulted in more than a million dollar payout, and he had many more cases against him over those.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:05 PM

Again: reproductive ‘rights’ stop the moment the fetus is recognized as a human being, which–until recently–was the third trimester. *snip*
troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 2:54 PM

And using that standard, attempts are being made to consider the fetus a “person” at the moment of conception.

Whither reproductive rights then?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:07 PM

No, it doesn’t. Death trumps a guilty conscience.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 3:05 PM

I would say you are wrong. First off, women have been sold a bill of goods. They have been largely told that the baby is a lump of tissue and like getting a mole removed. When they go to these abortion clinic for honest counsel; the clinics reinforce this decision. Most don’t even realize what they did until they are pregnant with their first child, and wonder why that one is a baby just because it is wanted.

A lot of them were strong armed by parents or boyfriends..

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:07 PM

Whither reproductive rights then?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:07 PM

An abortion is NOT reproductive rights.. YOu are not reproducing anything, and according to your ilk it “isn’t used a birth control.”

Reproductive rights come in when someone is responsible and chooses wisely whether to reproduce or not. Walgreens is located on almost EVERY corner. Contraception and now even Plan B is available.

Reproductive rights is like saying someone who kills their spouse should be able to do it because they have “marriage rights.”

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:10 PM

How does the fact that Gosnell violated accepted health and safety standards make his case about the politics of abortion?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 2:56 PM

Because Gosnell is not an isolated case. Many states do not inspect these clinics. Gosnell was only caught because authorities were pursuing leads on illegal drug sales, not because the clinic was inspected. I posted this above, but you have your head shoved so far up your a$$ you don’t understand just how bad this will someday blow up in the faces of pro-abortionists. Insisting that abortion clinics are beyond the same inspection regimes any other healthcare facility is subject to only encourages shops of horror like Gosnell’s.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:10 PM

I still wouldn’t support it.
melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:01 PM

EXACTLY!

So all your blather about standards is meaningless as pertains to your real position.

Saw it coming a mile away. You are so transparent, melle.

“As clear as an azure sky; as clear as an unmuddied lake.”

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:11 PM

And using that standard, attempts are being made to consider the fetus a “person” at the moment of conception.

Whither reproductive rights then?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:07 PM

Are women forced to become pregnant in this country? Aren’t so called reproductive rights about whether or not someone chooses to become pregnant?

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:14 PM

EXACTLY!

So all your blather about standards is meaningless as pertains to your real position.

Saw it coming a mile away. You are so transparent, melle.

“As clear as an azure sky; as clear as an unmuddied lake.”

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:11 PM

Ahh so with your logic, because I don’t support spousal abuse; then I can’t be for any laws that make abused spouses safer. Because I want to irradicate the base problem in the mean time I can’t support measure that victimizes less people.

Chump, you are transparent and such a liberal. YOU could care less about women. THe ignorant women among us are used as voting zombies just like every other special interest groups, and if a few get killed in the political process- so what?

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:16 PM

Because Gosnell is not an isolated case. Many states do not inspect these clinics. Gosnell was only caught because authorities were pursuing leads on illegal drug sales, not because the clinic was inspected. I posted this above, but you have your head shoved so far up your a$$ you don’t understand just how bad this will someday blow up in the faces of pro-abortionists. Insisting that abortion clinics are beyond the same inspection regimes any other healthcare facility is subject to only encourages shops of horror like Gosnell’s.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:10 PM

I’ll ask you the same question I posed to melle: So if health and safety standards are strengthened and enforced, will you end your opposition to abortion?

One more thing: Success in totally banning access to abortion in this country would spawn a illegal, back-alley industry that would make Gosnell’s clinic look like Disney land.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:16 PM

Whither reproductive rights then?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:07 PM

I ask in response: when does humanity stop? Peter Singer, that wellspring of murderously nifty ideas from whom so many abortion advocates take their cues, believes in ‘post-birth’ abortions, where a child may be killed at an as-yet-to-be-decided-upon age following birth, up to five years or so. He’s also a big fan of euthanasia for the elderly, infirm, and comatose. He believes the right to life (a genuine right if there can be such a thing as ‘rights’) is dependent on ‘personhood’ status, which is determined by a set of criteria too obtuse and lengthy for recounting here. In Singer’s world, you better hope you fit those criteria.

I personally believe abortion should be made illegal except–and only except–the health of the mother is at stake. That said, I also recognize political reality and don’t believe the state has the authority to coerce a woman such as a rape victim to bring a child to term. Thus, there could be no absolute ban. The law, to be effective and fair, must recognize exgencies and extenuating circumstances.

troyriser_gopftw on May 10, 2013 at 3:18 PM

EXACTLY!

So all your blather about standards is meaningless as pertains to your real position.

Saw it coming a mile away. You are so transparent, melle.

“As clear as an azure sky; as clear as an unmuddied lake.”

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:11 PM

So what you’re saying is that the standards should never be improved because those who oppose abortion will always oppose abortion. Priceless.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:19 PM

I’ll ask you the same question I posed to melle: So if health and safety standards are strengthened and enforced, will you end your opposition to abortion?

One more thing: Success in totally banning access to abortion in this country would spawn a illegal, back-alley industry that would make Gosnell’s clinic look like Disney land.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:16 PM

Ahh the myth of the back alley abortion. First off, the myth started as away of getting Roe federalized. Just like abortion deaths were about 200 a year, NARAL at the time publisized 5000-10000 a year.

Where do you think all the abortion doctors came from in 1973? They had already been performing abortion in their offices.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:22 PM

I’ll ask you the same question I posed to melle: So if health and safety standards are strengthened and enforced, will you end your opposition to abortion?

One more thing: Success in totally banning access to abortion in this country would spawn a illegal, back-alley industry that would make Gosnell’s clinic look like Disney land.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:16 PM

As evidenced by the four states with only one abortion clinic in each, right? And I really don’t give a flying Fluke about the fact that people will break the law if abortion is made illegal. I care about saving lives. And banning abortion would save millions. We’ll deal with the lawbreakers on a case by case basis. This lame retort can be applied to anything that is illegal. Why is murder illegal if murder still happens?

Now let me ask you something: Why do you fear health and safety standards being enforced in abortion clinics?

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Ahh so with your logic, because I don’t support spousal abuse; then I can’t be for any laws that make abused spouses safer.

False analogy.

Because I want to irradicate the base problem in the mean time I can’t support measure that victimizes less people.

Please.

You are using the poor safety standards issue as a bludgeon to end access to abortion! The last thing you want is safer, cleaner places where women can end their pregnancies, correct?

*snip*

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:16 PM

The more cases like Gosnell, the better you’d like it, why not admit it?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:24 PM

Please.

You are using the poor safety standards issue as a bludgeon to end access to abortion! The last thing you want is safer, cleaner places where women can end their pregnancies, correct?

*snip*

The more cases like Gosnell, the better you’d like it, why not admit it?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:24 PM

Yeah I hate women who have abortions so much that I want them to die. Counseling them for YEARS was just a cover. I mean I couldn’t want the clinics safer to save at least one life.// (insert snarky tone)

You are an idiot. You really are.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:26 PM

Now let me ask you something: Why do you fear health and safety standards being enforced in abortion clinics?

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:26 PM

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:26 PM

Have you?

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:27 PM

Your hypothetical is so dumb, it’s not even worth seriously considering. It’s as stupid as replacing Gosnell with “Adam Lanza” or some other mass shooter and “abortion” with “gun ownership”. It’s a scenario that does not and could not exist.

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 2:50 PM

It’s a simple yes/no question, Armin. I as much as admitted that it was a thought exercise, and yet you can’t even answer in the negative or affirmative one way or the other?

Yeah, sure Butch. I’m the one on shaky ground here. Whatever you say.////////////////

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 3:32 PM

Now let me ask you something: Why do you fear health and safety standards being enforced in abortion clinics?

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Why do you fear additional gun control or regulation? After all, it’s just about safety, say the proponents of stricter gun laws. The hand of Father Government is always benign, right?

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 3:35 PM

Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:26 PM

I’m not married. Answer the question.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:36 PM

The more cases like Gosnell, the better you’d like it, why not admit it?

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:24 PM

There are more cases like Gosnell out there. I guaran-damn-tee it. If there weren’t, the pro-infanticide ghouls abortion rights activists wouldn’t be lobbying for less oversight.

So I’ll ask you the same thing that Armin actively refused to address: If prosecuting everyone who did what Kermit Gosnell is accused of meant a de facto end to abortion, would you be in favor of such prosecution? After all, the pro-infanticide ghouls keep telling me “no one approves of what Gosnell did.” I don’t believe it for a second, but that’s certainly what I’m hearing. So offer me a real challenge, ghoul.

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 3:37 PM

*snip*
You are an idiot. You really are.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:26 PM

And you are intellectually dishonest, so I think we’re even.

No one in his or her right mind supports the kind of dump Gosnell ran. Abortion is a medical procedure and ALL medical procedures should be carried out in safe, clean environments!

It is people like YOU who are using the Gosnell case as bludgeon to go after abortion rights in general. The bottom line of your position is compulsory childbirth, so spare me your compassionate counseling crap!

You and the other anti-abortionists want to hold Gosnell up as your poster boy to convince the country that abortion should be illegal. AND IT’S NOT WORKING! That’s the whole premise behind Morrissey’s post!

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:37 PM

Why do you fear additional gun control or regulation? After all, it’s just about safety, say the proponents of stricter gun laws. The hand of Father Government is always benign, right?

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 3:35 PM

Because it’s a violation of the 2nd Amendment, and these laws don’t actually make us safer. Pretty straight forward. Why are you a dishonest ghoul?

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:39 PM

Why do you fear additional gun control or regulation? After all, it’s just about safety, say the proponents of stricter gun laws. The hand of Father Government is always benign, right?

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 3:35 PM

Because regulation limits access, and the left knows that in both abortion and gun control. That being said, why shouldn’t abortion clinic be held to the same standards as other out patient clinics? How does the left care about women when it doesn’t make sure that an abortion provider is as safe as other medical facilities.

Answer: People like you don’t care about women. Abortion is big business, and one the left supports. Regulations and standards would cost money and cut into their bottom line. If abortion is a medical procedure like the left claims then lets treat it as such. Clinics need to be inspected and held to proper out patient surgery standards. Anyone who opposes that doesn’t care about women at all.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:39 PM

Why do you fear additional gun control or regulation? After all, it’s just about safety, say the proponents of stricter gun laws. The hand of Father Government is always benign, right?

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 3:35 PM

It’s not about safety. It’s already been established in a series of landmark studies that legal gun ownership decreases violent crime. And besides that, in order to make us “safer,” gun grabbers have to blatantly violate the constitution. Where in the constitution is the right to commit infanticide kill a fetus abort a pregnancy?

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 3:40 PM

I’m not married. Answer the question.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:36 PM

Your question makes a presumption about my point of view.

Why shouldn’t I ask if you’ve stopped beating your wife/girlfriend/significant other/dog/etc?

If you’d like to rephrase your question along the lines of: “How do you feel about strict enforcement of health and safety standards in medical facilities?” I’d be glad to answer it.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM

You and the other anti-abortionists want to hold Gosnell up as your poster boy to convince the country that abortion should be illegal. AND IT’S NOT WORKING! That’s the whole premise behind Morrissey’s post!

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:37 PM

Well you can thank the media for that. It’s working on the libwit former pro-choicers who actually attended the trial and saw the evidence — save for perhaps one holdout juror.

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM

If you’d like to rephrase your question along the lines of: “How do you feel about strict enforcement of health and safety standards in medical facilities?” I’d be glad to answer it.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM

So answer it.

NotCoach on May 10, 2013 at 3:41 PM

And you are intellectually dishonest, so I think we’re even.

No one in his or her right mind supports the kind of dump Gosnell ran. Abortion is a medical procedure and ALL medical procedures should be carried out in safe, clean environments!

It is people like YOU who are using the Gosnell case as bludgeon to go after abortion rights in general. The bottom line of your position is compulsory childbirth, so spare me your compassionate counseling crap!

You and the other anti-abortionists want to hold Gosnell up as your poster boy to convince the country that abortion should be illegal. AND IT’S NOT WORKING! That’s the whole premise behind Morrissey’s post!

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:37 PM

Yes, they do including many doctors who REFERRED patients to Gosnell despite his public record of killing women, giving them STDS and experimenting on women. The state of Pennsylvania run by prochoicers also supported Gosnell by turning a blind eye to recorded violations. YOU OWN GOSNELL.

Furthermore, Gosnell is not a rarity because abortion clinics all over this country have not been inspected in the last decade. I cited at least one case in Chicago where a woman died because Planned Parenthood waited five hours to get her help– very similiar to how the woman who Gosnell is on trial for was killed.

And apparently abortion is not considered a medical procedure because abortionist keep fighting states that want to make them held to outpatient surgery standards.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:43 PM

No one in his or her right mind supports the kind of dump Gosnell ran.
chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:37 PM

So if shutting down the kind of dump Gosnell ran meant no more abortion in America, you’d be in favor of that? Sure sounds like it. Yes or no?

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 3:45 PM

So I’ll ask you the same thing that Armin actively refused to address: If prosecuting everyone who did what Kermit Gosnell is accused of meant a de facto end to abortion, would you be in favor of such prosecution? After all, the pro-infanticide ghouls keep telling me “no one approves of what Gosnell did.” I don’t believe it for a second, but that’s certainly what I’m hearing. So offer me a real challenge, ghoul.

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 3:37 PM

And I’ll respond the same way Armin did.

Your question is stupid.
Try again.

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:47 PM

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 2:30 PM

LIAR

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 3:51 PM

So if shutting down the kind of dump Gosnell ran meant no more abortion in America, you’d be in favor of that? Sure sounds like it. Yes or no?

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 3:45 PM

Dude, if you haven’t guess by now, I am pro-choice!

Abortion will NEVER end in America! The only question is whether access will be legal or illegal.

Now, get someone to explain my answer to you and spare me your stupid, loaded questions!

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:52 PM

LIAR

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 3:51 PM

You’re no Henry Rollins…

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:54 PM

Gosnell killed women and fully born children, with full rights in the US law.

That makes him a murderer and he committed infanticide.

It has nothing to do with anything else.

You can spin it into oblivion and it changes nothing.

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 3:56 PM

This thread is about infanticide and murder, not about gun laws, nor about abortion.

Schadenfreude on May 10, 2013 at 3:56 PM

It’s not about safety. It’s already been established in a series of landmark studies that legal gun ownership decreases violent crime. And besides that, in order to make us “safer,” gun grabbers have to blatantly violate the constitution. Where in the constitution is the right to commit infanticide kill a fetus abort a pregnancy?

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 3:40 PM

You’re absolutely right. It’s not about safety. And when pro-life “conservatives” suddenly decide that federal regulation is awesome but only when it comes to abortion clinics, that isn’t about safety either. It’s about crushing an entire industry under the weight of an impossibly heavy regulatory burden. Anyone who thinks that using government regulation to intentionally destroy private business is acceptable is not a conservative no matter what they call themselves.

Armin Tamzarian on May 10, 2013 at 4:00 PM

Yes, they do including many doctors who REFERRED patients to Gosnell despite his public record of killing women, giving them STDS and experimenting on women. The state of Pennsylvania run by prochoicers also supported Gosnell by turning a blind eye to recorded violations. YOU OWN GOSNELL.

Furthermore, Gosnell is not a rarity because abortion clinics all over this country have not been inspected in the last decade. I cited at least one case in Chicago where a woman died because Planned Parenthood waited five hours to get her help– very similiar to how the woman who Gosnell is on trial for was killed.

And apparently abortion is not considered a medical procedure because abortionist keep fighting states that want to make them held to outpatient surgery standards.

melle1228 on May 10, 2013 at 3:43 PM

Swing that cudgel, melle!

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 4:03 PM

Dude, if you haven’t guess by now, I am pro-choice!

chumpThreads on May 10, 2013 at 3:52 PM

No you’re not pro-choice, ghoul. You’re pro-abortion. I’m pro-choice in as far as I believe it should be up to the states to regulate and not the federales, but I’ve agitated for my home state to make abortion illegal.

As for your weaksauce debating skills, “Your question is stupid” would get you eaten alive at the Oxford club; it’s not a valid debate tactic. When I ask if you’d be in favor of prosecuting all charnel house-style abortion abbatoirs, just answer honestly and say “no.” It will save you a lot of ridicule from me, although I can’t speak for the rest of the pro-lifers here, you utilitarian scumbag.

gryphon202 on May 10, 2013 at 4:04 PM

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