An armed march on Washington? Let’s not. Update: Kokesh an anti-war smear merchant?

posted at 2:31 pm on May 4, 2013 by Jazz Shaw

Before we get started on this story, I would like to take a moment to point out that you’d be hard pressed to find any point where I’ve been anything but a staunch defender of the Second Amendment, as I would hope most regular readers know. I’ve taken flack for it from a lot of people this year, ranging from family members to folks in the media. But even approaching it from that sort of position, I’ve got to say that this is a really bad idea.

A march on Washington with loaded rifles

Libertarian activist and radio host Adam Kokesh is hoping to get 1,000 people to march on Washington on July 4 — armed with loaded rifles. The plan, launched with a Facebook group today, is to gather on the Virginia side of the Potomac, where gun laws are lax, and then march across the bridge with loaded rifles slung over their shoulders into the District, where openly carrying weapons is generally prohibited.

“This will be a non-violent event,” the Facebook group warns, “unless the government chooses to make it violent.” Already, over 200 people have said they’ll attend the march.

The plan is to march over the bridge, around the Capitol building, the Supreme Court and the White House, all with loaded rifles slung over their shoulders. Honestly, it’s difficult to imagine a worse idea, particularly in the midst of a heated debate with gun grabbers in the government. Kokesh describes this as an act of “civil disobedience” but it falls well short of that goal. If he wanted to promote an act of peacefully breaking the law to make a point, it would certainly be worthy of considering. For example, you could take a large number of people to block the entrance to the main office of the A.T.F and force the police to arrest and remove you. But this is something very different.

Showing up with a thousand (or even a few hundred) people openly carrying loaded weapons and marching toward the Capitol is not something that law enforcement is going to play around with, particularly when you announce it in advance. And they’re not going to allow the march to proceed “peacefully” either. Normally I’d write this off as a bad idea that wouldn’t gain widespread support, but the problem here is that it doesn’t need widespread support. It would really only take a few hundred really upset people to get it rolling. And even if most of them intend it to be peaceful, when the officials show up to arrest them, weapons drawn, you have the potential for disaster which Rick Moran foresees.

With the furor over gun rights and the government’s efforts at gun control, this march is likely to attract enough people to make it an extraordinarily dangerous event. Who knows what kooks will be marching? Most marchers will no doubt be level headed and sincere in their desire for a non-violent event. But it only takes one unbalanced person to cause a tragedy.

Sensible gun owners, along with the NRA, are making the point that the government needs to respect the rights of law abiding, responsible gun owners and spend their time chasing the actual criminals. There could be no better gift to hand to gun rights opponents than to have a bunch of people get arrested for breaking established (if really bad) gun laws or, worse, getting in a shootout with the cops. This is not the type of representation we need in this debate.

UPDATE: (Jazz) From the Boss Emeritus. Was this all a dodge?

[Kokesh] marched in uniform in mock patrols for the anti-war movement, paraded around holding an upside-down American flag (see Jonn Lilyea for more), was arrested for defacing signs, and traveled to Germany to urge soldiers to abandon their posts and seek aid and comfort with his anti-war minions.

Kokesh, believe it or not, is now running as a Republican candidate for Congress in New Mexico. And, believe it or not, he is getting positive exposure on at least one Fox News show. He has the backing of Ron Paul, the Republican Liberty Caucus, and the 9/12 Project.

The New Mexico Republican Party has its head in the sand. If you have friends and family in New Mexico, make sure they know who the real Adam Kokesh is.

He is an anti-war smear merchant in GOP clothing. Spread the word.


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You can’t say stat’s are good as long they have the results you want,but crap if they don’t

Can’t wait for you to quote me advancing this point.

Straw man erected and destroyed. You tuckered out yet?

tom daschle concerned on May 4, 2013 at 5:08 PM

Can’t wait for you to quote me advancing this point.

Straw man erected and destroyed. You tuckered out yet?

tom daschle concerned on May 4, 2013 at 5:08 PM

He’s srtill swinging for the feces.

VegasRick on May 4, 2013 at 5:11 PM

As for the filter, why would v.alium get caught? Seriously, why? That’s how dumb the Hot Gas filter is.

Bishop on May 4, 2013 at 5:07 PM

I discovered that one when I used it in a comment a couple of weeks ago. I’m still wondering why.

farsighted on May 4, 2013 at 5:11 PM

In 2010:

In the US…

Total number of crimes reported: 10,329,135

Violent crimes: 1,246,248

Property crimes: 9,082,887

US population in 2010: 308,745,538

Per capita rate for violent crime was: 0.404%

Per capita rate for property crime was: 2.94%
.
.
In the UK…

Total number of crimes reported: 9.718 million

Violent crimes: 3.808 million

Property crimes: 5.91 million

UK population in 2010 was 62,262,000

Per capita rate for violent crime: 6.12%

Per capita rate for property crime: 9.49%
.
.
The links to the government sources are embedded here:

Gun Bans: Mad Dogs & Englishmen

PS: You’ll notice how the write-up in 2013 heralds 2009 as some big year. Yes, it was a dramatic improvement from 2006, but the numbers that you don’t see are frightening…UK: 2,034 violent crimes for every 100,000 residents. US: 429.4 violent crimes for every 100,000 residents. The UK beat South Africa (2,034 v 1,609 violent crimes per 100,000) that year and South Africa isn’t exactly in the same league as Switzerland.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 5:15 PM

Malkin has a piece on the organizer, he is a radical leftist/anarchist posing as a righty. His name is Adam Kokesh. A simple google search or search at youtube will elucidate who he is and what his possible motivations for doing this might be.

tom daschle concerned on May 4, 2013 at 4:42 PM

Well then, neither she nor you have any idea what you are talking about. He is a radical anti-state, anti-war libertarian … really an anarcho-capitalist. He joins forces with lefties or righties depending on the circumstances/cause.

That said, I have to agree to disagree with this march. No loaded weapons period…bad idea. Civil disobedience fine, unloaded weapons or replicas … maybe?? (though still provocative). I’m thinking he gets arrested before they even cross the Potomac.

Firefly_76 on May 4, 2013 at 5:15 PM

This “protest” strikes me as a likely false flag operation. In any case, it would be a perfect setup for an agent provocateur. No, I’m not talking about government agents. There are plenty on the Left who would do it de gratis.

As previous tea party rally “racism” incidents demonstrate, they ARE out there.

Avoid this rally like the plague! At best, the only thing it will accomplish is more gun laws being passed.

rspock on May 4, 2013 at 5:16 PM

The CSEW, which measures crime separate from Police.They go around the country asking if you have been a victim of crime even if you haven’t reported to the police,this would include somebody shouting at you

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_298904.pdf

These are the Home Office
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116483/hosb0212.pdf

You can’t say stat’s are good as long they have the results you want,but crap if they don’t

mags on May 4, 2013 at 4:52 PM

Le sigh. Again, I’m asking for proof that gun bans reduce homicide and violent crime in general, NOT whether they reduce gun violence. And if such proof does not exist (in fact a strong case can be made for the opposite), what’s the point?

I know your brain probably barely operates above that of a 5 year old having a temper tantrum, but I encourage you to provide us with any supporting data that gun control or gun bans reduce homicides or violent crime in general. Take your time. We’ll wait.

NotCoach on April 17, 2013 at 11:46 PM

NotCoach on May 4, 2013 at 5:16 PM

farsighted on May 4, 2013 at 5:11 PM

It’s a brand name. The filter catches them.

thatsafactjack on May 4, 2013 at 5:17 PM

So for the sake of argument, let’s say these 1000 people actually do this. And police attempt to stop them. And they won’t stop.

ARE POLICE PREPARED TO OPEN FIRE?

Think about it.

GarandFan on May 4, 2013 at 5:18 PM

I’m thinking he gets arrested before they even cross the Potomac.

Firefly_76 on May 4, 2013 at 5:15 PM

God willing. This is just a set up for something much worse.

Gatsu on May 4, 2013 at 5:18 PM

DBear on May 4, 2013 at 4:50 PM

My ex and son are both veterans and enjoy a day at the shooting range…you’re an idiot.

Go. Away.

ladyingray on May 4, 2013 at 5:19 PM

It’s a brand name. The filter catches them.

thatsafactjack on May 4, 2013 at 5:17 PM

Brand name owner can threaten to sue, I suppose.

farsighted on May 4, 2013 at 5:20 PM

I discovered that one when I used it in a comment a couple of weeks ago. I’m still wondering why.

farsighted on May 4, 2013 at 5:11 PM

I can explain that. The gambling terms and the pharmacy terms are a huge, huge source of spam. The basic filter will want to nuke those pretty much every time, everywhere.

Hot Air uses a closed registration system, though, so it’s possible to open the gates, close the gates, clean house. But even then, we’d have pharma spam posts as people exhausted their socks.

If you’ve gotten a spam email on it, it’s probably filtered.

Axe on May 4, 2013 at 5:21 PM

Um

Ate on May 4, 2013 at 4:30 PM

.
I’m pretty sure you were going there.

ExpressoBold on May 4, 2013 at 5:21 PM

Well then, neither she nor you have any idea what you are talking about. He is a radical anti-state, anti-war libertarian … really an anarcho-capitalist. He joins forces with lefties or righties depending on the circumstances/cause.

That said, I have to agree to disagree with this march. No loaded weapons period…bad idea. Civil disobedience fine, unloaded weapons or replicas … maybe?? (though still provocative). I’m thinking he gets arrested before they even cross the Potomac.

Firefly_76 on May 4, 2013 at 5:15 PM

Even better…a paultard.

tom daschle concerned on May 4, 2013 at 5:21 PM

See this

Schadenfreude on May 4, 2013 at 4:44 PM

thanks, knew the name was familiar but could not place it.

dmacleo on May 4, 2013 at 5:22 PM

I can explain that. The gambling terms and the pharmacy terms are a huge, huge source of spam. The basic filter will want to nuke those pretty much every time, everywhere.

Axe on May 4, 2013 at 5:21 PM

That makes sense, too.

Now I can stop wondering what was so offensive about using the word in my comment.

farsighted on May 4, 2013 at 5:23 PM

Viagra

Bishop on May 4, 2013 at 5:23 PM

Axe on May 4, 2013 at 5:21 PM

Check your sketchbook mail. :)

thatsafactjack on May 4, 2013 at 5:23 PM

Knives and cars are not used simply to kill they have other everyday uses like making dinner and getting to work. Cars are registered, too, btw, like guns should be….

DBear on May 4, 2013 at 4:19 PM

I know it’s difficult to figure out but maybe, just maybe it’s because cars are not needed to stop a totalitarian government from enslaving free citizens( whose rights are given only by Nature’s God?)

By the way, rat poison is also used for other purposes–what’s your point, oh and those deadly little “Death Angel(amanitas)” mushrooms that grow on my lawn….

Maybe we need to register those little abortion pills the left is forcing upon our innocent children in their well-planned quest to turn this once decent nation into Sodom and Gomorrah.

Don L on May 4, 2013 at 5:24 PM

Ok, now I know it has to do with spam and that’s cool; my inbox is constantly fighting off pharma-related spam.

Bishop on May 4, 2013 at 5:25 PM

I’m pretty sure you were going there.

ExpressoBold on May 4, 2013 at 5:21 PM

I was NOT! — But only because I didn’t think of it.

Check your sketchbook mail. :)

thatsafactjack on May 4, 2013 at 5:23 PM

Check the Frenchie thread. :)

Axe on May 4, 2013 at 5:26 PM

Axe on May 4, 2013 at 5:26 PM

K:)
BRB

thatsafactjack on May 4, 2013 at 5:27 PM

Axe on May 4, 2013 at 5:26 PM

K:)

What sarc tag? :)

thatsafactjack on May 4, 2013 at 5:31 PM

I’m thinking he gets arrested before they even cross the Potomac.

Firefly_76 on May 4, 2013 at 5:15 PM

While I think this is a stupid idea I seriously hope they do NOT get arrested in Virginia. That just is one more infringement on my rights.

Course VA law says you can’t open carry a firearm holding more then 20 rounds, so I would not mind seeing them arrested for that, in the Old Dominion, before they cross the Potomac.

If they decide to use firearms with less then 20 rounds I do not want to see them arrested in VA.

F15Mech on May 4, 2013 at 5:35 PM

2011:

UK (only E&W, I have to add the S numbers in, but anyhoo)…

Violent crimes: 2.1 million

Violent crimes for every 100,000 people: 540
.
.
US…

Violent crimes: 1,203,564

Violent crimes for every 100,000 people: 386.3

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 5:35 PM

Check the Frenchie thread. :)

Axe on May 4, 2013 at 5:26 PM

WTF? lol

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 5:40 PM

DBear? Where’d you go? It’s a simple data-driven and verifiable question.
 
Third time’s the charm:
 

DBear, do you have any idea what percentage of violent crime in the US involves a firearm?
 
rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 4:07 PM

 
Say, weren’t you the one bragging about posting data earlier in this very thread?

rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 5:45 PM

Say, weren’t you the one bragging about posting data earlier in this very thread?

rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 5:45 PM

Only data that supports his worldview is posted and/or taken under advisement.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 5:48 PM

Honestly, it’s difficult to imagine a worse idea, particularly in the midst of a heated debate with gun grabbers in the government.

How about the farmers descending on DC with their tractors during the Carter administration to protest the demise of the family farm or something. Now keep in mind that when you say tractor to most people living in the city/suburbs they think of farmer Green on an old-fashioned John Deere if not a large sitting lawn mower. The farmers arrived in huge sleek machines with air-conditioned cabs and talked about how poor they were. Didn’t go over well no matter what the truth of the matter was.

An armed march on DC is an even worse idea and like all such “marches” more show than doing anything to really move the needle on public opinion.

Happy Nomad on May 4, 2013 at 5:48 PM

NotCoach on May 4, 2013 at 5:16 PM

Bigger sigh
You haven’t read it the details on homicides is not just those who have been shot.If you had bothered reading it you would of noted that more are killed here with sharp instruments.

As for gun’s and violent crime.The gun control here wasn’t because of
trying to reduce violent crime.
It was because of mass shootings,there has’nt been any school killings since Dunblane in 1996.There has been one spree killings.

Since the restriction’s ,low gun crime ,low gun killings(this includes
suicide ,accident and police) There was a peak in violent crime stats in 2003 when they redefined what it is
Overall violent crime is reduced,this however is the difference been what we say is violent crime and the U.S
.

FBI table, what constitutes a “violent crime”:

Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter
Forcible rape
Robbery
Aggravated assault

Home Office table, what constitutes a “violent crime”:

Murder
Manslaughter
Infanticide
Attempted murder
Intentional destruction of viable unborn child
Causing death by dangerous driving
Causing death by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs
Causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving
Inflicting grievous bodily harm (GBH) with intent
Use of substance or object to endanger life
Possession of items to endanger life
Inflicting grievous bodily harm (GBH) without intent
Racially or religiously aggravated inflicting GBH without intent
Causing death by aggravated vehicle taking
Causing or allowing death of a child or vulnerable person
Causing death by driving: unlicensed drivers, etc.
Corporate manslaughter
Actual bodily harm (ABH) and other injury
Racially or religiously aggravated ABH and other injury
Poisoning or female genital mutilation
Conspiracy to murder
Threats to kill
Endangering railway passengers
Endangering life at sea
Possession of firearms with intent
Possession of other weapons
Possession of article with blade or point
Harassment
Public fear, alarm or distress
Racially or religiously aggravated harassment
Racially or religiously aggravated public fear, alarm or distress
Cruelty to and neglect of children
Abandoning a child under the age of two years
Child abduction
Procuring illegal abortion
Assault without injury on a constable
Assault without injury
Racially or religiously aggravated assault without injury

mags on May 4, 2013 at 5:53 PM

I have to disagree with Jazz; doing a sit in at the ATF does nothing to further or protect civil liberty. We believe that we have a right to openly carry a weapon, so the only way to protect that right is to do it. when arrested for doing so there will be a trial at which the legal argument can play out all the way to the supreme court. the same cannot be said for the sit in at the ATF.

It will be brave men who tempt the laws of the District and I will watch with great interest the outcome. I think local and federal law enforcement will be more accommodating than you think. I don’t know that I would try it as a felony gun charge could brand one for life. Not to mention the chance of standing next to some crazed loon who decided to march with you and decides to shoot at police.

Kaptain Amerika on May 4, 2013 at 5:57 PM

Procuring illegal abortion

mags on May 4, 2013 at 5:53 PM

You actually have a law against abortion? Over here they’ll kill the baby regardless of how old it is.

Our liberals fight for the right to kill a baby who survives an abortion.

darwin on May 4, 2013 at 6:01 PM

I take a contrarian view on this compared to some of the other comments. I marched on DC at the 912 march. Well over a million of us and not a shred of litter or garbage anywhere. It was not a crowd of unruly inner city gangs, mentally ill progressives, or psychos. It was a disciplined and orderly event with not the slightest incident. Were we to have been armed, who the heck would have tried to provoke a million armed American Patriots? And if they tried, the cops would have had plenty of assistance.

Tripwhipper on May 4, 2013 at 6:04 PM

mags on May 4, 2013 at 5:53 PM

Most of the UK violent crimes would be prosecuted under one of the violent crime laws in the US. For example, ‘causing death by aggravated vehicle taking’ would be, at minimum, a ‘non-negligent manslaughter’ since the death occurred in the commission of a felony. More likely, it would be prosecuted under attempted second-degree murder and its lesser included, voluntary manslaughter.

Attempted murder is counted as a violent crime. Attempted rape is counted as a violent crime. The FBI’s list is not limited to cases of actural murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape (as opposed to statutory rape), robbery, and aggravated assault. Attempted, conspiracy, solicitation to commit, etc, are treated as violent crimes under US criminal law and sentenced accordingly.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 6:04 PM

So for the sake of argument, let’s say these 1000 people actually do this. And police attempt to stop them. And they won’t stop.

ARE POLICE PREPARED TO OPEN FIRE?

Think about it.

GarandFan on May 4, 2013 at 5:18 PM

And you ask the question on the forty-third anniversary of Kent State. The only way the police would not open fire is if there were THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of armed protestors looking to get it on. You’re darn tooting’ the cops would open fire on a smaller group. SWAT gear and all.

HiJack on May 4, 2013 at 6:06 PM

Post updated.

Jazz Shaw on May 4, 2013 at 6:07 PM

He’s a Paulbot. All you have to do is keep your distance from him and he can’t smear your cause.

thebrokenrattle on May 4, 2013 at 6:08 PM

UPDATE: (Jazz) From the Boss Emeritus. Was this all a dodge?

i don’t think dodge is quite the word. Loon? yes. Mole? hmmmm. False Flag ops…you be the judge.

earlier i was going to post his wikipeidia entry early. A casual read talks about his ant-war and other fruitcake stuff. his ‘radio’ show is internet…he was canned at RT.

As is well known Paul.bots are half conservative libertarian types…the other half foaming anti-war leftists. I’ve seen Ron P give speech to this crowd….Code Pink types…this is not news

regrettably honest hard working people who get suckered by con men. Really sad.

r keller on May 4, 2013 at 6:08 PM

these guys have been talking about the July 4 armed march on DC long before the dude all you guys are pointing fingers at jumped into the fray.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Prepare-to-Take-America-Back/350771908311178?ref=ts&fref=ts

they claim they are working with LE and the military to make this happen.

Ed Graef on May 4, 2013 at 6:09 PM

Post updated.

Jazz Shaw on May 4, 2013 at 6:07 PM

Better late than never :) Thank you.

Schadenfreude on May 4, 2013 at 6:11 PM

We believe that we have a right to openly carry a weapon, so the only way to protect that right is to do it. when arrested for doing so there will be a trial at which the legal argument can play out all the way to the supreme court. the same cannot be said for the sit in at the ATF.

Kaptain Amerika on May 4, 2013 at 5:57 PM

True dat! All it takes is one person to challenge the law to start a Supreme Court run. There was the case of some black guy back in the eighties (or seventies) who was walking around a rich, white neighborhood with a boom box on his shoulder. He did it to provoke a lawsuit, and sure enough, the local cops stopped him and demanded his papers for no good reason except that he was out of place. He took it all the way to the Supremes and won his case. I can’t recall the case, though. If you want to prove a point and make a difference concerning bad law, break the law and fight it all the way. All someone has to do is carry a loaded weapon around D.C.. And it has to be loaded. Otherwise, you can’t claim you need it for protection. Good luck to anybody with the real ballz to do it.

HiJack on May 4, 2013 at 6:14 PM

DBear, do you have any idea what percentage of violent crime in the US involves a firearm?

rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 4:07 PM

far too many, which is why we need stricter gun control.

DBear on May 4, 2013 at 4:19 PM

Exhibit A at the futility of arguing with dipshits liberals. Roger asks a simple, non-contentious question and sugar bear has no logical answer, just “feelings.”

arnold ziffel on May 4, 2013 at 6:26 PM

mags on May 4, 2013 at 5:53 PM

RWM covered some of this, but how the two countries classify violent crime is irrelevant. I’m not asking for a comparison of violent crime between the US and UK, I’m asking for the violent crime trends from specific locales that have highly restrictive firearms laws.

NotCoach on May 4, 2013 at 6:27 PM

He is an anti-war smear merchant in GOP clothing. Spread the word.

Cause when you’re in the GOP milita, you must love war.

rubberneck on May 4, 2013 at 6:31 PM

I’m highly suspicious of his motives. Nothing good could come from this which is probably what he wants.

TfromV on May 4, 2013 at 6:31 PM

Cause when you’re in the GOP milita, you must love war.

rubberneck on May 4, 2013 at 6:31 PM

Hyperbole has its place when making a point, but do you really believe what you stated?

tom daschle concerned on May 4, 2013 at 6:35 PM

Exactly. Way to reignite the gun ban issue. Dumb. Is Adam Kokesh a plant or just dumb, because this is just too dumb to be real.

Mimzey on May 4, 2013 at 3:03 PM

This has OFA written all over it. If they cannot get sensible, but frustrated-to-the-max people to start something on their own, they are going to manufacture the crisis to end the discussion permanently. Especially if (very likely) something were to go wrong.

tru2tx on May 4, 2013 at 3:13 PM

Yep. I suspect the guy is a plant, big time. I wouldn’t put anything past Obama and his merry band of OFAers. They have been itching for just such a “crisis,” and I also suspect that they’re fishing for another way to do it since Fast and Furious didn’t turn out the way they expected it would.

PatriotGal2257 on May 4, 2013 at 6:37 PM

I’m highly suspicious of his motives.

TfromV on May 4, 2013 at 6:31 PM

Ya think?

darwin on May 4, 2013 at 6:37 PM

ORB FOR THE WIN!!!!!

katy the mean old lady on May 4, 2013 at 6:38 PM

SHALL. NOT. BE. INFRINGED. EVER!!!!! Its your right as an Amurrrican to carry ANYWHERE don’t let them infringe on that right! If denied go ahead and use that remedy you guys are just dyyyyying to use, please!!!

DBear on May 4, 2013 at 3:32 PM

You think we are going to be morally lectured by a guy whose party promotes the decapitation of newborn babies?

Gelsomina on May 4, 2013 at 6:38 PM

Yep. I suspect the guy is a plant, big time. I wouldn’t put anything past Obama and his merry band of OFAers. They have been itching for just such a “crisis,” and I also suspect that they’re fishing for another way to do it since Fast and Furious didn’t turn out the way they expected it would.

PatriotGal2257 on May 4, 2013 at 6:37 PM

If liberals don’t have a crisis they’ll create one. Never, ever doubt a liberal when they say the ends justify the means. They will do absolutely anything to create utopia.

darwin on May 4, 2013 at 6:39 PM

A peacfully armed Tea Party march on Washington would still be less violent than the tamest Occupy Wall Street rally (unless Obama decided to “escalate” things).

Glenn Jericho on May 4, 2013 at 6:41 PM

Rumblings of the July 4 march started here:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Prepare-to-Take-America-Back/350771908311178?ref=ts&fref=ts

get the story straight.

Ed Graef on May 4, 2013 at 6:42 PM

Say, weren’t you the one bragging about posting data earlier in this very thread?
 
rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 5:45 PM

 
Only data that supports his worldview is posted and/or taken under advisement.
 
Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 5:48 PM

 
And the circle is complete:
 

The comments section of this blog is a joke.
 
HotAirLib on May 4, 2013 at 3:41 PM

 

Which makes your side’s inability to carry on a debate and near-universal tendency to flee threads when facts are posted all the more sad.
 
Say, now that you mention it..
 

DBear on May 4, 2013 at 3:16 PM

 

DBear, do you have any idea what percentage of violent crime in the US involves a firearm?
 
rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 4:07 PM

 
DBear? Where’d you go? It’s a simple data-driven and verifiable question.
 

rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 5:45 PM

 
Nothing but crickets.
 
Faith-based, simplistic, religious crickets.

rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 6:47 PM

Most excellent, rogerb. Add this part, too:

DBear on May 4, 2013 at 4:50 PM

So, my facts from the UK government are to be ignored? My experience is to be ignored, as well?

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 4:57 PM

Mags’ data from the Home Office was accepted by DBear – no questions asked.

My data from the Home Office? Not so much.

My personal experience? Even less much.

A reply to my questions from DBear? Resist he much.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 6:53 PM

I think the bottom line is that anyone so dumb to participate in this armed march will loose their gun rights when they are convicted in DC court of a felony. Now is that a feature or a flaw in this plan?

meci on May 4, 2013 at 7:08 PM

Orb came from behind to win the Kentucky Derby by half a length in the mud.

Orb’s pedigree… note: Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Damascus, Unbridled, Raise A Native, Green Dancer, Bold Reasoning…
this colt was bred and born to win this race. Trainer: Shug McGaughey.

Orb’s pedigree

thatsafactjack on May 4, 2013 at 7:12 PM

2011:

UK (only E&W, I have to add the S numbers in, but anyhoo)…

Violent crimes: 2.1 million

Violent crimes for every 100,000 people: 540
.
.
US…

Violent crimes: 1,203,564

Violent crimes for every 100,000 people: 386.3

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 5:35 PM

Given the population differences between the UK and the US, these numbers per 100K can’t be right.

trigon on May 4, 2013 at 7:14 PM

Kokesh is a 9/11 truther lunatic and use to have a show on Russia Today where he claimed he was a paid Russian Agent. Got pulled because he was breaking campaign law using his show to promote Paultard.

jp on May 4, 2013 at 7:15 PM

The idea is good, but the numbers are too small. 50,000 to a million would be about right. Needs to be big enough where they will not dare to challenge the citizens. They need to peacefully march up to the White House and demand Obama address the crowd. Obama needs to understand he works for us and we did not hire a ruler.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft on May 4, 2013 at 7:24 PM

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013

Your stat’s claiming a 89% rise in violent crime comes from an old Daily Mail article from 2009,referring to the early 2000′s when the definition was changed.This is the Daily Mail’s most recent take,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2313942/UK-Peace-Index-Rate-murders-violent-crime-falling-faster-Western-Europe.html

The CSEW report you have sited on violent crime includes crimes not reported to the police,they go around the country asking who thinks they have been a victim but didn’t go to the police, and this is what they report on.
As the article said if you have been pushed and shoved with no injury and didn’t go to the police it still counts as a violent crime.
It’s to marry up the feeling of threat of crime and recordable crime

Is there an equivalent in the U.S?
Also the definition of rape is different between the two countries.
Violent crime is difficult to compare,but murder,gun killings and gun crime are easier

mags on May 4, 2013 at 7:25 PM

ARE POLICE PREPARED TO OPEN FIRE?

Good grief….a Massacre on the Mall?

Since the DC cops are all anti 2A…you can bet there’ll be some very twitchy fingers when they see the AR’s and camo on some of these dopes…highly misguided dopes.

Twana on May 4, 2013 at 7:27 PM

WOOT!
MontanaMmmmm!
Update!

bazil9 on May 4, 2013 at 7:30 PM

It is not any march by U.S. on Washington D.C. that we should worry about, it the march my the two party evil money cult and its marck on our constitution and U.S. that we should be worried about.

And they will come after U.S. with guns.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on May 4, 2013 at 7:33 PM

It is not any march by U.S. on Washington D.C. that we should worry about, it the march my the two party evil money cult and its marck on our constitution and U.S. that we should be worried about.

And they will come after U.S. with guns.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on May 4, 2013 at 7:33 PM

Wha?

thebrokenrattle on May 4, 2013 at 7:36 PM

Given the population differences between the UK and the US, these numbers per 100K can’t be right.

trigon on May 4, 2013 at 7:14 PM

You’re right as to the UK on the 100,000. I read a sub-category. It appears that it is actually higher.

Instead of 540 violent crimes per 100,000 (you choose):

Total recorded violence against the person: 763 per 100,000

Number of violence against the person offences: 1,380 per 100,000

Go here, then click Excel under ‘download options’ and then, Table 1.05.

As to the number of offences:

The 2011/12 CSEW shows that there were 2.1 million violent incidents in England and Wales with 3% of adults victimised. The number of violent incidents has halved from its peak in 1995 when the survey estimated over 4.2 million violent incidents.

The population of England and Wales in 2011 was 56.1 million.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 7:37 PM

I love all you Black Panther/Malcom-X type @A supporters….who did more for Civil Rights, they or King?

Did King march thousands of ARMED people anywhere?

As I say, lotsa SDS-Types here, “Fightin’ Da Man”…not real smart but fightin’ the power….

And as to shooting, how’s this…the cops don’t shoot, per se…they just hose the marchers with fire hoses and tear gas….

What will the MARCHERS DO? Shoot at the police? That’s a plan….

Lastly he’s an Anarcho_Capitalist, folkz…IF you are a luaP noR supporter sign up, the rest I’d stay far away.

He’s NOT a Conservative, he doesn’t believe in the US Constitution…he doesn’t believe in the 2A.

He’s an ANARCHIST…the US Constitution is not something he supports, because he doesn’t support GOVERNMENT…..

JFKY on May 4, 2013 at 7:49 PM

If liberals don’t have a crisis they’ll create one. Never, ever doubt a liberal when they say the ends justify the means. They will do absolutely anything to create utopia.

darwin on May 4, 2013 at 6:39 PM

Yep, exactly. I do wish that more of the citizenry realized it now before it is too late.

PatriotGal2257 on May 4, 2013 at 7:55 PM

Kokesh is a 9/11 truther lunatic and use to have a show on Russia Today where he claimed he was a paid Russian Agent. Got pulled because he was breaking campaign law using his show to promote Paultard.

jp on May 4, 2013 at 7:15 PM

Ah, yes, I thought his name sounded familiar. I think I saw something about him just recently — not this march, but something about how he ended up doing a show for Russia Today.

PatriotGal2257 on May 4, 2013 at 7:58 PM

So Jazz wrote a “serious” post about some loon – without even checking the loon to see what he’s made of; topped of with some nonsense deep thinking about why “this isn’t a good idea”…

WIll his next post be a taped debate with a homeless dude under the bridge concerning how good or bad eating poop is?

Odie1941 on May 4, 2013 at 7:59 PM

Folks, if doing it will save just one life, we have to make sure that Kermit Gosnell never sees the light of day outside of a maximum security prison.

What? That’s the wrong talking point for this debate? Shit.

/libwit

gryphon202 on May 4, 2013 at 7:59 PM

Cause when you’re in the GOP milita, you must love war.

rubberneck on May 4, 2013 at 6:31 PM

The air thin on planet nutjob?

There isn’t a vet here or a commenter who isn’t in the Paulian horde, who doesn’t see that remark as pathetic..

you ignored the “smear merchant” part pretty pointedly.

I support the war on Al Qaeda, am a vet, and still feel sick those young men have to do this, only a really foaming at the mouth Paul-bot can be this clueless and disturbed. Besides, aren’t your type the ones throwing around the words war monger like party favors?

It’s one thing to hate war, that is rational.. to say no war at any cost, no matter how many are killed, because I DON’T AGREE if they aren’t using landing barges on the coast, is simple minded.

mark81150 on May 4, 2013 at 8:02 PM

I swear, if Jazz isn’t supporting some liberal idea he is out trying to find examples that put conservatives in a bad light…even if it isn’t really conservatives.

Panther on May 4, 2013 at 8:04 PM

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 7:37 PM</blockquote

The Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW), formerly known as the British Crime Survey (BCS), is a face-to-face victimisation survey in which people resident in households in England and Wales are asked about their experiences of a range of crimes in the 12 months prior to the interview. From January 2009 the CSEW was extended to include 10 to 15 year olds.

This isn't reported crime or convicted crime.Kids have said they have had their bike nicked and that is included in the data under violent crime

mags on May 4, 2013 at 8:05 PM

mags on May 4, 2013 at 7:25 PM

As I said that MANY of the offences listed separately by the Home Office are included in the four areas of violent crime stats in the US collected from state and local governments, including the police and prosecutors. Under murder/non-negligent manslaughter, alone, you can put first degree, second degree, third degree murder, felony murder, voluntary manslaughter, DUI manslaughter, etc.

Your stat’s claiming a 89% rise in violent crime comes from an old Daily Mail article from 2009,referring to the early 2000′s when the definition was changed

The 89% rise was NOT in violent crime. It was in gun-related crime.

And, the DM’s data, which other media sources reported at the time, came from the government…

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year – a rise of 89 per cent.

You posted this link in rebuttal to the
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/116483/hosb0212.pdf

The problem with the second one is this: ‘Homicide, Firearm Offences, and Intimate Violence 2010/2011.’ It covers homicides, all gun crimes, and intimate violence, which is defined as:

partner abuse (non-sexual), family abuse (non-sexual) and sexual assault or stalking by anyone. Due to the irregular nature of what is contained in this category, estimates for total intimate violence are not presented here.

It doesn’t include aggravated assault or robbery. The ONS does. Thus, if your problem with the ONS data is that it OVERSTATES the violent crime rate because of its methodology, then, you must also have a problem with that of the Home Office, which UNDERSTATES omits offences included in the FBI stats.

Is there an equivalent in the U.S?

Not that I’m aware of. Maybe the Census, but I would have to look.

Violent crime is difficult to compare,but murder,gun killings and gun crime are easier

The problem is threefold for me:

1. I don’t cede to the government or you that a lower homicide rate is better even if it comes at the cost of a higher violent crime rate. I was the victim of sexual assault. My trauma outweighed his right to live and I would have killed him had I a gun and been in a position to do so.

2. The US has the Second Amendment for a reason. It doesn’t miss George III, nor does it seek a replacement.

3. I left the UK to come here because I loathe the nanny state and wanted more freedom. I would never exchange liberty for a little temporary security. And, most of my now-fellow Americans would not either.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 8:12 PM

Kokesh is a 9/11 truther lunatic and use to have a show on Russia Today where he claimed he was a paid Russian Agent. Got pulled because he was breaking campaign law using his show to promote Paultard.

jp on May 4, 2013 at 7:15 PM

you were saying?

He is an anti-war smear merchant in GOP clothing. Spread the word.

Cause when you’re in the GOP milita, you must love war.

rubberneck on May 4, 2013 at 6:31 PM

This is your hero?…..right..

He damn well hopes to get somebody shot, after the demonizing the media has given gun owners.. you think a loon gathering misguided rights advocates into a very trigger happy environment after Boston is a good idea?

What happens if he leads this march, and when told to disperse, he takes his rifle off his shoulder and waves it?.. or some rookie cop has an accidental discharge?.. or one shot even in the air is fired?.. you want a blood bath?

and claim to be anti-war?

really?

mark81150 on May 4, 2013 at 8:13 PM

Yeah, the day an armed march on Washington becomes necessary and a good idea, it won’t be to just march around the buildings.

Midas on May 4, 2013 at 8:14 PM

or some rookie cop has an accidental discharge?.. or one shot even in the air is fired?.. you want a blood bath?

and claim to be anti-war?

really?

mark81150 on May 4, 2013 at 8:13 PM

ANTI-WAR, not Anti-Violence…remember the government is just one more criminal gang, it’s authority is arbitrary and needless…we must water the Tree of Liberty…with someone’s blood….

Murray Rothbard FOREVER!

JFKY on May 4, 2013 at 8:17 PM

If liberals don’t have a crisis they’ll create one. Never, ever doubt a liberal when they say the ends justify the means. They will do absolutely anything to create utopia.

darwin on May 4, 2013 at 6:39 PM

… which is what makes me a bit queasy when I see them confidently predicting they’ll get gun control passed by the end of the year.

Another mass shooting is coming first. I hope not, but we’ll see, and then the questions will begin…

Midas on May 4, 2013 at 8:17 PM

I LOVE libertarians, especially the anti-war ones….so I guess we just needed to buy out all the slave holders or let the Confederacy leave the Union…WAR SOLVES NOTHING.

We should have just ignored the Japanese and the Germans…a few Lettres of Marque or the use of mercenaries would have settled the problems…WAR SOLVES NOTHING.

JFKY on May 4, 2013 at 8:19 PM

Calling a libertarian leaning Republican an “anti-war smear merchant” is a bit much. The John McCains and Lindsey Grahams of the world will not like Adam Kokesh but these types of conservatives are the future of the party.

ModerateMan on May 4, 2013 at 8:27 PM

Also the definition of rape is different between the two countries.

I forgot to address this point.

The only bright-line differences that I can think of off the top of my head are 1) that penetration with an object in the US can be charged and prosecuted as a rape, but is oftentimes prosecuted as aggravated sexual assault; whereas, in the UK, under the 2003 Act, this is not the case and penetration is only an aggravated sexual assault; and 2) it is impossible to convict a woman of rape under the Act since she doesn’t have a pen1s.

Another problem to keep in mind is that there are 50 jurisdictions with different rape laws in the US so there is variation, but all of the laws in the US would be consider that would encompass that covered by the UK law.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 8:27 PM

but these types of conservatives are the future of the party.

ModerateMan on May 4, 2013 at 8:27 PM

9/11 Troofers are the Future of the GOP, remind me to get before that happens….

JFKY on May 4, 2013 at 8:34 PM

3. I left the UK to come here because I loathe the nanny state and wanted more freedom. I would never exchange liberty for a little temporary security. And, most of my now-fellow Americans would not either.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 8:12 PM

There’s also the simple logical silliness of saying that no one died on island SpoonPhilia, where there are no forks, of fork stabbings, but on island ForkTopia, where babies are given their first forks before being handed to their mothers, incidents of fork-stabbing related murders are higher. It’s a meaningless observation, even if it’s true. It’s Rachel Maddow deep proselytizing. But, some people love the simplicity of it: Gun violence is higher in countries with guns in them. Or, Accidental death by gun occurs more frequently when people have a gun with which to create an accidental death.

“Being Human” is the limiting factor. It’s not possible to bring about an end to every negative consequence of every person’s actions with a gun, or anything else. The argument should remain one of rights. Does a person have a right to a weapon, or not? Does a person have a right to use a weapon against another person, or not? Beyond that, it’s probably soul-searching over what and when.

Axe on May 4, 2013 at 8:42 PM

these types of conservatives

And libertarian-anarchists are NOT “Conservatives.” US Conservatives, generally are at best, miniarchists…

As Rothbardians are ANARCHISTS, they really don’t fall into the Conservative Fold…really Rothbard and Raimondo prefer the Articles of Confederation to the US Constitution, one of the bed-rock documents of US Conservatives.

JFKY on May 4, 2013 at 8:44 PM

Resist We Much on May 4M, 2013 at 8:27 Pm

I should be well versed of sexual offences in the U.K because nearly every day a popular celebrity from my childhood is being arrested and charged with these crimes.I don’t know how long you have been out the U.K but it’s getting hilarious,all you can hear is ‘who’s next’.

The Queen’s honors list is nearly the same as the sex offenders list.

mags on May 4, 2013 at 8:55 PM

Calling a libertarian leaning Republican an “anti-war smear merchant” is a bit much. The John McCains and Lindsey Grahams of the world will not like Adam Kokesh but these types of conservatives are the future of the party.

ModerateMan on May 4, 2013 at 8:27 PM

Yeah, ‘cuz, like a whole bunch of libertarian-leaning Republicans were at the protest about Alberto Gonzales’s numerous use of ‘I don’t recall’ and had their count of the usage posted in a front-page article in the Washington Post.

According to the Washington Post’s sketch columnist extraordinaire, Dana Milbank, Gonzales said “I don’t recall” and its variants (“I have no recollection,” “I have no memory”) 64 times. Milbank is a hard-working columnist who sat through all 11 hours of testimony in the past three weeks from Gonzales and his former chief of staff, D. Kyle Sampson. He knows his stuff. But former Marine Adam Kokesh, who was based in Fallujah and is now an anti-war activist, kept his own count and came up with 74 “I don’t recalls” (or some such variation). The difference doesn’t really make a difference, the point’s still the same, but Capitol Briefing welcomes readers to scour the hearing transcript and do their own counts.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2007/04/the_ag_hearing_a_post_mortem.html

And did stuff like this…

A group of seven GW students sent an e-mail to The Hatchet late Tuesday night admitting to hanging hundreds of controversial posters around campus early Monday morning.

The students – Adam Kokesh, freshman Yong Kwon, senior Brian Tierney, freshman Ned Goodwin, Maxine Nwigwe, Lara Masri and Amal Rammah – said their motives were misinterpreted. Students for Conservativo-Facism Awareness hung the posters in opposition to Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week, an event being held beginning Oct. 22.

‘It is to our great dismay that the student body and the media missed the clear, if subtle, message of our flier: the hyperbolic nature of the flier was aimed at exposing Islamophobic racism,” the e-mail said.

http://www.gwhatchet.com/2007/10/08/seven-gw-students-admit-to-hanging-controversial-posters/

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 8:59 PM

Violent crime is difficult to compare,but murder,gun killings and gun crime are easier
 
mags on May 4, 2013 at 7:25 PM

 
Fair enough.
 
What percentage of violent crime in the UK involves a firearm?
 
I checked your links, but I’d like a quotable response directly from you with a citation, please.
 
Your provided Home Office .pdf is fine. Just point to the page number(s).

rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 9:01 PM

I should be well versed of sexual offences in the U.K because nearly every day a popular celebrity from my childhood is being arrested and charged with these crimes.I don’t know how long you have been out the U.K but it’s getting hilarious,all you can hear is ‘who’s next’.

The Queen’s honors list is nearly the same as the sex offenders list.

mags on May 4, 2013 at 8:55 PM

I’m well aware of what is going on there. My family still lives there. I know all about Savile, Hall, etc. Almost as outrageous as their conduct was the cover-up by those that knew and employed them, like the BBC.

It is an absolute outrage.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 9:03 PM

Your stat’s claiming a 89% rise in violent crime comes from an old Daily Mail article from 2009,referring to the early 2000′s when the definition was changed

The 89% rise was NOT in violent crime. It was in gun-related crime.

Our trolls have to be the dumbest.

I should be well versed of sexual offences in the U.K because nearly every day a popular celebrity from my childhood is being arrested

mags on May 4, 2013 at 8:55 PM

That’s your response?

This is truly pathetic.

CW on May 4, 2013 at 9:13 PM

Calling a libertarian leaning Republican an “anti-war smear merchant” is a bit much. The John McCains and Lindsey Grahams of the world will not like Adam Kokesh but these types of conservatives are the future of the party.

ModerateMan on May 4, 2013 at 8:27 PM

Nonpartisan is that you?
/

Seriously troll STFU.Whackjob.

CW on May 4, 2013 at 9:15 PM

mags on May 4, 2013 at 7:25 PM

Fair enough.

What percentage of violent crime in the UK involves a firearm?

I checked your links, but I’d like a quotable response directly from you with a citation, please.

Your provided Home Office .pdf is fine. Just point to the page number(s).

rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 9:01 PM

Mags is just another big blabber mouth. Not.much.there.

CW on May 4, 2013 at 9:16 PM

Corrected:

Almost as outrageous as their conduct was the cover-up by those that knew OF THEIR BEHAVIOUR and employed them, like the BBC.

It is an absolute outrage.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 9:03 PM

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 9:22 PM

Hot dang! A hog-killin’ time in D.C., heeled and all. Show the guv’mint folks that yuz all mean business on the account yuz fixin’ to go all patriot-like!

keep the change on May 4, 2013 at 9:22 PM

keep the change on May 4, 2013 at 9:22 PM

You are as large an idiot as Kokesh is, you know.

JFKY on May 4, 2013 at 9:26 PM

DUDE…

Adam Kokesh Banned from Ron Paul Festival

Yeah, I think that we can take that as the definitive nail in Koresh’s coffin. Getting BANNED FROM A RON PAUL EVENT???? You know the dude is whack and even too crazy from The Crazy Train.

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 9:31 PM

Hot dang! A hog-killin’ time in D.C., heeled and all. Show the guv’mint folks that yuz all mean business on the account yuz fixin’ to go all patriot-like!
 
keep the change on May 4, 2013 at 9:22 PM

 
Hey, good to see you. Glad you’re okay. We missed you on the other gun control thread that you abruptly fled after it was shown that you didn’t understand the topic.
 
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/04/28/manchin-we-are-absolutely-going-to-try-for-another-gun-control-vote/comment-page-2/#comment-6929778
 

Yet you lose arguments to them and have to run away from the threads because you don’t understand the topic you introduce.
 
Again, what does that say about you?
 
Well done, keep the change.
 
rogerb on April 28, 2013 at 8:58 PM

rogerb on May 4, 2013 at 9:31 PM

Resist We Much on May 4, 2013 at 9:31 PM

Great catch, time for another update?

MontanaMmmm on May 4, 2013 at 9:38 PM

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