Video: “We’ve forgotten what abortion really is”

posted at 9:21 am on April 30, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Via Kathryn Jean Lopez at The Corner, Lila Rose gets straight to the heart of why the media didn’t want to cover the Gosnell trial — and why they won’t want to cover what happens in other late-term abortion clinics, either.  They don’t want to see the brutality or the inhumanity, and the culture sanitizes the horror of abortion in order to keep public opinion from turning against it.  These films, and the Gosnell trial, strip the façade away

Kirsten Powers concurs.  In her column for USA Today, Powers tells readers that Gosnell is “no aberration,” but the industry norm — helped along by malicious neglect of public officials who are supposed to protect the health of the community:

Abortion rights advocates have asserted that Gosnell was an “extreme outlier” andopposed legislation to increase regulation of Pennsylvania abortion clinics as they have in other states. But how could they possibly know that this is an aberration?

Last week, Ohio officials shut down an abortion clinic after inspectors found that a medical assistant administered narcotics to five patients, that narcotics and powerful sedatives weren’t properly accounted for, that pharmacy licenses had expired and that four staff members hadn’t been screened for a communicable disease.

This month, a Delaware TV station reported that two Planned Parenthood nurses resigned in protest over conditions at a clinic there. One nurse, Jayne Mitchell-Werbrich, said, “It was just unsafe. I couldn’t tell you how ridiculously unsafe it was.” …

Last year, an Associated Press investigation found that Illinois hadn’t inspected some abortion clinics for 10 to 15 years. After state health officials reinvigorated their clinic inspections in the wake of Gosnell, inspectors closed two clinics, including one fined for “failure to perform CPR on a patient who died after a procedure,” according to AP.

The Left spent all last year screeching about a “war on women” because some people opposed the idea of forcing employers to foot the bill for contraception. The same people seem awfully silent, in every sense of that term, when it comes to the butchers of the abortion industry and the public officials who won’t lift a finger to put them out of business. That’s because they don’t want people to know what abortion truly is.

 


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libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM

When you’ve been exposed as a stupid ghoul, it’s best not to keep proving that.

You and your “bargains” can take a flying leap.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM

I see what Life Action is doing as positive. I do think it will get us to better honesty about abortion. It is killing and that’s ok.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 9:31 AM

Wow, based upon your previous postings, one must infer that you are OK with killing the unborn and that you acknowledge that it is killing.

Your soul is so dark, it’s smudging mine.

AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM

The public has not forgotten what abortion is. The public has been deceived and manipulated for years about what abortion is.

The abortion industry tells girls it’s just a “mass of cells” they’re having removed from their uterus, as if the developing baby were just some sort of tumor, instead of a human with its own DNA.

The abortion industry knows people would recoil from the truth, which is why they avoid even using the word “abortion” and instead use euphemisms like “women’s health.” Why would anyone oppose public spending on “women’s health”? Only mean, crazy, misogynistic right-wingers want to limit spending on “women’s health.”

AZCoyote on April 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:09 AM

I am so tired of your anti-life, anti-humanity, hateful pomposity. Your mission in life is to come onto a Conservative blog like this, zero in on a thread like this, and vomit your hateful rhetoric all over it.

I don’t give a hoot and holler what you think is growing inside a human mother’s womb. I know what it is. Your asinine denial of the life and potential of a human being in their mother’s womb is nothing but an exercise in callous fascism.

And, the day I sit back and allow a unfeeling, uncaring, pseudo-intellectual, nothing Troll such as yourself to jump on me, is the day my body is in the ground and my soul is with Christ.

Now, you sick, little attention-seeking Troll,take your oversized cranium with your undersized medulla oblongota, do something anatomically impossible with it…and disappear.

The adults are having a discussion.

kingsjester on April 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Sure. And Gosnell didn’t perform any abortions after 24.5 weeks. Just ask him.

stvnscott on April 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM

When you’ve been exposed as a stupid ghoul, it’s best not to keep proving that.

You and your “bargains” can take a flying leap.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Not just a stupid ghoul, but a stupid statist ghoul who wants us to bargain away our freedoms for somewhat less abortion. Jeebus.

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM

Any Liberal who attempts to carrect someone about “intellectual dishonty” is nothing but a pitiful joke. For years you idiots have tried to claim that the human being growing in the mother’s womb, is not a human being, it’s a clump of cells, or…a fetus…or…a space alien…or a puppy. Antything to try to alleviate your collective (because that is all you are, is a hive mind) guilt over stopping a beating human heart. And yet, you claim to be the most caring and tolerant among us.

kingsjester on April 30, 2013 at 9:50 AM

What you write is not pro-choice or pro-abortion say. It is rather about your not listening to others and just putting words in their mouths from the pro-life script. Only idiots say a fetus is not a genetically unique member of the biological species Homo sapien. (Quibbling over identical twins is tiresome and silly, though I am sure someone will take the bait.) What we say is that the fetuses doesn’t have the qualities of personhood such as consideration of the self as an ongoing project required to be a human being.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:09 AM

Your entire argument serves more to make kingjester’s point than your own. You deliberately choose your words in such a way as to delegitimize an dehumanize the child. Why? Because your side realizes that once people start thinking of the child as human, you lose.

Really, it’s quite disturbing. Serial killers use the same tactics with their victims, you know.

As for your argument that only idiots argue that fetuses are not human (SWIDT), then your entire PR campaign is run by idiots. Kingsjester is correct. It has been the public statement on abortion for several decades that the “organism” growing in the mothers body is a (choose one or all) a) lump of cells, b) invader, c) tissue, or even d) fetus, but absolutely anything other than e) a baby.

Finally, regarding your last point…

What we say is that the fetuses doesn’t have the qualities of personhood such as consideration of the self as an ongoing project required to be a human being.

How do you know? That’s a pretty black-and-white statement on something where most people tend to think there’s a considerable amount of grey area. What you are saying is that the child at this point either a) doesn’t have a soul, or b) is essentially an animal at this point and not a human being (hey, wow…we’re back to dehumanization again…imagine that). I don’t see any ironclad proof that either is correct, and if that’s going to be the basis for your arguments in favor of abortion, you better be damn sure you’re right on this one.

Chris of Rights on April 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM

CDC data also shows that 16.5% of abortions each year are conducted for “medical” reasons. I suspect that a significant chunk of those overlap with the 8.3% which occur after 13 weeks.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:59 AM

This is a deceptive statistic. “Medical” reasons can be anything, including mental health. Want that baby out of your uterus and in a jar somewhere on Gosnell’s desk? Just say you’re depressed about carrying a baby and taking it to full term presents a suicide risk. Medical reasons. Ptooey!

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 10:06 AM

Right. The liberals have stretched the ‘for the health of the mother’ exception to mean, “gee, I’ll be really depressed if I can’t go clubbing because I have to stay home with a baby”, so it gets killed.

This is why we have to draw a hard line at “the LIFE of the mother”, and once the baby becomes viable outside the mother it can no longer apply. Anything else, -the pro-abortion crowd will abuse until it becomes meaningless.

slickwillie2001 on April 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM

Here is the only way I support a ban on post 13 week abortions:

Then post 13 week abortions can be banned.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM

I’m not understanding. Do you also advocate a banning of skin tags being frozen and excised, liposuction, or having a fatty tissue bump removed at a certain point in time after such things have been discovered on a person’s body?

Bishop on April 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM

So it’s an aberration but not an unwelcome one. Being unwelcome is normally what is meant by aberration. What is unwelcome, in your view, is not being allowed to kill the baby with impunity. You’re just as extreme as thuja, you just candy coat it.

Fenris on April 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM

I am so tired of your anti-life, anti-humanity, hateful pomposity. Your mission in life is to come onto a Conservative blog like this, zero in on a thread like this, and vomit your hateful rhetoric all over it.

I don’t give a hoot and holler what you think is growing inside a human mother’s womb. I know what it is. Your asinine denial of the life and potential of a human being in their mother’s womb is nothing but an exercise in callous fascism.

And, the day I sit back and allow a unfeeling, uncaring, pseudo-intellectual, nothing Troll such as yourself to jump on me, is the day my body is in the ground and my soul is with Christ.

Now, you sick, little attention-seeking Troll,take your oversized cranium with your undersized medulla oblongota, do something anatomically impossible with it…and disappear.

The adults are having a discussion.

kingsjester on April 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM

libfreeordie, this is for you as well, you twisted racist ghoulish puke.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:24 AM

You were 17? Last time you brought it up you said you were 16

Lies, fairy tales and fallacies.

As if it matters. People who are 17 are so smart. /

The age of consent in 30 states (that’s a majority of them and most of those are red states) is 16. So you must think you’re surrounded by pedophiles on all sides!

He’s a pedophile who abused you and other young boys.
22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Good gravy you’re such a nutball. The law says I wasn’t abused. I say I wasn’t abused. And “other boys” You’ve conjured up some fantasy of someone else’s experience and you’re trying to get me to answer for it. Wait a minute, I think I now understand how you prolifers come to think Gosnell represents “abortion.”

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:24 AM

[libwit drivel redacted]
Then post 13 week abortions can be banned.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM

Why, yes, yes, they can. See: Planned Parenthood v Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992) and Gonzales v Carhart, 550 U.S. 124 (2007).

Resist We Much on April 30, 2013 at 10:24 AM

What we say is that the fetuses doesn’t have the qualities of personhood such as consideration of the self as an ongoing project required to be a human being.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:09 AM

When do those qualities come into effect?

Bishop on April 30, 2013 at 10:24 AM

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:24 AM

Nice try, projecting your stupidity onto me. Maybe you should keep talking, on the other hand.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:25 AM

Fenris on April 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM

An “aberration” is also a statistical unit….

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:25 AM

I didn’t put it in scare quotes, I was pasting from the CDC website. Here is the only way I support a ban on post 13 week abortions:

1. All natal care is paid for by the state in top of the line facilities.
2. Adoption agencies with proven track records of care and sympathy towards mothers are on hand to facilitate an adoption.
3. Federal law is passed requiring all employers to provide 10 months of paid maternity leave and banning employers from firing new mothers once they return for at least 6 months.
4. Federal law is passed increasing support for early childhood education in impoverished communities.

Then post 13 week abortions can be banned.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM

^^^ I find it odd that the one thing liberals don’t want is responsible sex. Either don’t have sex if you don’t want a baby or have protected sex.

darwin on April 30, 2013 at 10:25 AM

What has always confused me — if a person kills a pregnant woman, he has killed two people. If the pregnant woman decides to kill the child within her, it is abortion. Either way, the child is dead.

polarglen on April 30, 2013 at 10:27 AM

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:24 AM

At the end of the day (and this thread) you have to live with yourself. You can’t handle that and that’s why you want to argue your stupid talking points with folks who know better than you. And you have no shame in looking foolish because it numbs your self-loathing for a while. But that’s coming to an end soon.

Meanwhile 3,000 more innocent lives will get taken today.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:28 AM

What we say is that the fetuses doesn’t have the qualities of personhood such as consideration of the self as an ongoing project required to be a human being.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:09 AM

When do those qualities come into effect?

Bishop on April 30, 2013 at 10:24 AM

Here’s another bone-chilling effect of utilitarianism: Someone, either an individual or an elite group of individuals, has to decide this. And when that group of individuals changes (as eventually it must due to retirement or death or changing political realities), that definition can change. Over and over and over and over again.

Gee…what else does this remind me of? We used to think utilitarianism was evil. I guess evil for thee but not for me, eh?

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 10:28 AM

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM

You were 17? Last time you brought it up you said you were 16. As if it matters. People who are 17 are so smart. /
So there’s a connection between that and your present stupidity.
He’s a pedophile who abused you and other young boys.
And you brought it up initially. You never should have. What goes online stays online.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:11 AM

If that really happened, you should do something about it if that person was a teacher or someone in a position of authority. It plainly has affected you; the anger that seethes inside of you is destroying you. Do something about it.

slickwillie2001 on April 30, 2013 at 10:28 AM

slickwillie2001 on April 30, 2013 at 10:28 AM

You mean lfod? I think so but just want to be sure since you quoted my reply to him.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:31 AM

I didn’t put it in scare quotes, I was pasting from the CDC website. Here is the only way I support a ban on post 13 week abortions:

1. All natal care is paid for by the state in top of the line facilities.
2. Adoption agencies with proven track records of care and sympathy towards mothers are on hand to facilitate an adoption.
3. Federal law is passed requiring all employers to provide 10 months of paid maternity leave and banning employers from firing new mothers once they return for at least 6 months.
4. Federal law is passed increasing support for early childhood education in impoverished communities.

Then post 13 week abortions can be banned.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM

Typical progressive / socialist thought. A woman is irresponsible with her sexuality, therefore the taxpayers and her employer should be on the hook for 10s of thousands of dollars. Her decision to be an idiot is private, but the consequences are public. Nice.

stvnscott on April 30, 2013 at 10:34 AM

An “aberration” is also a statistical unit….

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:25 AM

I understand statistics. Multiplying a percentage of a percentage is not what the word means even in that context. It is true that one non- randomly chosen sample is also has nothing to do with statistics. So you misused the word, we all do it sometimes, which led me to conclude you are not as extreme as you are.

Fenris on April 30, 2013 at 10:36 AM

I’m a catholic
Non Practicing but moral

I am sick to my stomach, about the evil perpetrated here, and everywhere else, with no limits…

I hope society destroys itself, it is too sick to survive this modern age Aztec butchery..

I cry, for the babies murdered in this fashion…

jean

Gauthijm on April 30, 2013 at 10:36 AM

You have entire industries that celebrate the just-born and as-yet-unborn in the form of baby showers, baby stores, baby books, baby name websites etc.

Meanwhile you have a parallel industry (abortion, planned parenthood etc.) existing to destroy the same.

The only difference is being WANTED or UNWANTED.

What does it say about society when it’s people don’t see the incoherence of murdering UNWANTED children while celebrating WANTED children?

An attorney I know says: when you get abortion wrong, how can you get anything right?

LetsBfrank on April 30, 2013 at 10:36 AM

This does not mean that Gosnell is not monstrous, nor does it mean he never murdered a born baby, clearly he did. The problem comes when you all try and turn him into a poster child for abortion. When all the data says he’s not even a poster child for late term abortion.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:54 AM

It’s only “murder” because he did the snip snip out of the womb. Had he done it inside the womb, at or near the same time, you (and the law) would wave an American flag and applaud it. That is the issue – if it’s murder outside the womb, why is it “OK” inside the womb? Location, location, location?

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 10:37 AM

I guess I just should have named my children clump of cells 1 and clump of cells 2.

MontanaMmmm on April 30, 2013 at 10:40 AM

I always suspected Thuja was/is a philosophical utilitarian. Now I have my ironclad proof.

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 9:46 AM

On the one hand, I do applaud your trying to put my statements or people whom you consider more worthy into the bigger picture. But I do suspect that your categorization isn’t meant to further dialog by looking at the big picture, but instead meant to put me into a box which you consider undesirable. In this box, you don’t have to consider what I say. But I am puzzled by the accusation of utilitarianism. Most usually, a pro-lifer will charge someone with moral relativism.

Just so you know, my ethical philosophy is more or less what John Kekes says in his books. John Kekes is a rare Conservative academic philosopher. I especially recommend The Morality of Pluralism.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:40 AM

I cry, for the babies murdered in this fashion…

jean

Gauthijm on April 30, 2013 at 10:36 AM

It is literally a nauseating subject. Beyond political agitation, it is difficult to know what to do other than cry.

Fenris on April 30, 2013 at 10:41 AM

And because ghouls like libfree, thuja, and armin ultimately believe in philosophical utilitarianism over basic intrinsic human dignity.

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM

The catch here is that people like libfree, thuja, and armin all erroneously believe that THEY will be the Central Planners, making the call on others’ lives and death. They fail to realize that that won’t happen – someone else will be the Central Planner that will make the call on THEIR life or death. And only then will the lesson sink in about how wrong they are, and their arm flailing will really begin.

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 10:43 AM

Just so you know, my ethical philosophy is more or less what John Kekes says in his books. John Kekes is a rare Conservative academic philosopher. I especially recommend The Morality of Pluralism.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:40 AM

Utilitarianism is not a conservative value. Not in America. Our forefathers fled utilitarianism in Europe, as did many immigrants since then. But if you wanna continue believing you occupy some sort of moral high ground…

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Thuja.

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 10:43 AM

The catch here is that people like libfree, thuja, and armin all erroneously believe that THEY will be the Central Planners, making the call on others’ lives and death. They fail to realize that that won’t happen – someone else will be the Central Planner that will make the call on THEIR life or death. And only then will the lesson sink in about how wrong they are, and their arm flailing will really begin.

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 10:43 AM

This.

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 10:44 AM

Not just a stupid ghoul, but a stupid statist ghoul who wants us to bargain away our freedoms for somewhat less abortion. Jeebus.

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 10:23 AM

Whoops, just saw this. Well stated.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:44 AM

But I am puzzled by the accusation of utilitarianism. Most usually, a pro-lifer will charge someone with moral relativism.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:40 AM

And by the by, I’m not your average pro lifer. What you’re engaging is is most certainly moral absolutism. It’s of a sort that I disagree with, but your ideas, though wrong on so many levels, are philosophically grounded.

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 10:46 AM

Leaving aside the morality issues around abortion, with the possible exception of the mother’s life in danger, I can think of no rational reason for a late-term abortion.

Surely even the pro-murder crowd would admit that killing a child that is viable outside the womb is immoral, right?

Happy Nomad on April 30, 2013 at 9:31 AM

Just throwing this out there. Do you get more money for WIC/Welfare if you are pregnant? Could this be why some women wait so long, so the extra money keeps coming in for 7 months instead of 2?

cptacek on April 30, 2013 at 10:46 AM

Just so you know, my ethical philosophy is more or less what John Kekes says in his books. John Kekes is a rare Conservative academic philosopher. I especially recommend The Morality of Pluralism.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:40 AM

.
I recommend asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart, as Lord and Savior. : )

listens2glenn on April 30, 2013 at 10:47 AM

What we say is that the fetuses doesn’t have the qualities of personhood such as consideration of the self as an ongoing project required to be a human being.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 10:09 AM

And that outlook can be transferred to those late in life that suffer from senility, or other medical issues that affect mental capability and self-reliance. See how easy it is to de-humanize? You luckily missed the abortionist’s scissors, but cheer up – you still have old age to look forward to, when you spend your days in a care home, and someone in control writes you off as “lacking consideration of the self” and therefore “not cost effective to maintain” and “trips” over your plug. Or worse, just decides to stop feeding you. Because “[i]t is killing and that’s ok.”

How schadenfreudian will it be when you become a example of your own philosophy.

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 10:50 AM

In 2009, 784,507 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 48 reporting areas. The majority of abortions in 2009 took place early in gestation: 91.7% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation, and of the abortions performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation, 69.8% were performed at ≤ 8 weeks’ gestation

Here is what this data reveals about Live Nation, Kirsten Powers and Ed Morrissey’s intellectual dishonesty. Not only are late term abortions less than 9% of abortions conducted each year in this country, Gosnell represents an aberration *within* an aberration. Fundamentally, to say “this is what abortion really is,” constitutes a bold faced lie or massive ignorance. Take your pick. Ed, you should know better, this is publicly available data.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:45 AM

OK, let’s take your numbers cited above. We’ve already established that the statistics are suspect because the one data sample we have shows that abortionists lie regarding gestational age. … and no, you don’t get to claim that Gosnell is an aberration. he is the only data point we have because your side has opposed oversight and monitoring of the abortion mills that he and his colleagues run. Therefore, since he is the only sample we have, we must assume he is representative and that a non-zero number of other late term abortionists also lie about gestational age. Until real data is obtained, the Gosnell data is the working hypothesis. That’s the way things work in the real world.

So, again, taking your numbers and the implied assumption that anything after that 13 week age is murdering a pre-born child, then according to the CDC statistics, 8.9% of those 784,507 abortions were killing pre-born babies. That is 69,821 murders committed during that period of time. You want to restrict the clearly defined constitutional rights of 100 million gun owners over numbers 100 times less than that. Seems to be some significant inconsistency in your position. 69K murders per year is OK with you, yet you want to take away peoples’ right to defend themselves over numbers that are 100 times less than that — and the bulk of those murders occur in cities that already have taken away peoples’ right to defend themselves.

So, until murder rates exceed 70K per year in non gun-free zones, I think the prudent thing to do is ignore any of your ranting or raving about gun control since 69+K murders per year committed against innocent lives is just peachy-keen with you.

AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Then you are admitting your inability to reason. As of now you have one documented case of an abortion provider falsifying records to conduct illegal late term abortions, and you have one “sting” operation which we know from James O’Keefe and even Live Nation’s previous efforts is not exactly proof before the court of law. But even if we accept these videos as accurate, that’s two example. There are 3/4 of a million abortions performed in this country a year, which means there must be thousands of abortion providers around the country. You need more than two to make any statistically significant claims about any of them. You are letting your outrage at Gosnell and your general dislike of abortion to cloud your thinking.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:57 AM

http://operationrescue.org/whistleblower/steir.pdf

http://operationrescue.org/whistleblower/renelique.pdf

http://operationrescue.org/whistleblower/rand.pdf

cptacek on April 30, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 10:50 AM

Just snip his spine with some scissors and toss the detritus in the trash.

Bishop on April 30, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Murder as a statisical blip.

Well done, Sir. Well done, indeed.

Jabberwock on April 30, 2013 at 9:50 AM

Nah dude. I am saying that her claim that Gosnell is what abortion “really is” is factually and mathematically incorrect. Whether you think that mistake is an intentional lie or based on ignorance is up to you to decide. This does not mean that Gosnell is not monstrous, nor does it mean he never murdered a born baby, clearly he did. The problem comes when you all try and turn him into a poster child for abortion. When all the data says he’s not even a poster child for late term abortion.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:54 AM

Perhaps you’ve forgotten the title of this thread.
Just to remind you then,
<blockquote>“We’ve forgotten what abortion really is”</blockquote>

Jabberwock on April 30, 2013 at 11:01 AM

Just snip his spine with some scissors and toss the detritus in the trash.

Bishop on April 30, 2013 at 10:56 AM

We’ll euphemize it as “a late-late-late-late-post-birth abortion or pregnancy materiel “. A statistically insignificant decision, perhaps amounting to 9%, say?

/Wordplay is fun.

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 11:04 AM

Aren’t we all just a mass of cells?

CrustyB on April 30, 2013 at 11:04 AM

[libwit drivel redacted]
Then post 13 week abortions can be banned.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM

There’s a detectable heart beat after 5. You’re still killing a human being even at 5 weeks. I’d argue before since the spine and the brain develop even before the heart.

jawkneemusic on April 30, 2013 at 11:06 AM

You know, when I had to read and “dissect” (pun intended) Roe v Wade in law school, I recall a sort of self-destruct mechanism embedded in the dicta. It went something like, abortions are okay up to the point of viability and as medical science brings the point of viability (outside the womb) earlier into the gestation period, abortion will not be an “inherent right” of the mother to choose and her needs must be balanced against those of the child and society at large.

Given that, and the apparent wide-ranging disregard for those comments, I can see no argument on the left that there is no slippery slope to worry about in any of their pet legislation/litigation results.

totherightofthem on April 30, 2013 at 11:10 AM

Wow, based upon your previous postings, one must infer that you are OK with killing the unborn and that you acknowledge that it is killing.

AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Well, yeah. This should be true for any pro-choice person. There is no reason for you to announce this like it is some great new insight.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 11:15 AM

I see what Life Action is doing as positive. I do think it will get us to better honesty about abortion. It is killing and that’s ok.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 9:31 AM

Killing is okay? You are purely evil, Thuja.

zoyclem on April 30, 2013 at 11:21 AM

And, the day I sit back and allow a unfeeling, uncaring, pseudo-intellectual, nothing Troll such as yourself to jump on me, is the day my body is in the ground and my soul is with Christ.

Now, you sick, little attention-seeking Troll,take your oversized cranium with your undersized medulla oblongota, do something anatomically impossible with it…and disappear.

The adults are having a discussion.

kingsjester on April 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM

I forgive you for your anger.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 11:22 AM

I forgive you for your anger.
thuja on April 30, 2013 at 11:22 AM

It’s not my forgiveness you need to seek.

kingsjester on April 30, 2013 at 11:23 AM

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM

You were 17? Last time you brought it up you said you were 16. As if it matters. People who are 17 are so smart. /
So there’s a connection between that and your present stupidity.
He’s a pedophile who abused you and other young boys.
And you brought it up initially. You never should have. What goes online stays online.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:11 AM

If that really happened, you should do something about it if that person was a teacher or someone in a position of authority. It plainly has affected you; the anger that seethes inside of you is destroying you. Do something about it.

slickwillie2001 on April 30, 2013 at 10:28 AM

You mean lfod? I think so but just want to be sure since you quoted my reply to him.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 10:31 AM

Of course I meant libby. He needs one of those victim recovery plans that starts with “it’s not your fault”.

slickwillie2001 on April 30, 2013 at 11:24 AM

The problem for the utilitarians is when my opinion of utility comes into conflict with theirs. Thuja argues something akin to self-awareness, which means he endorses some duration of post birth “abortions” as OK – i.e infanticide. Where it stops? Who knows exactly but certainly after one year.

It is philsophically sound. However, it also is subject to my opinion on utility. And say since I feel no baby be aborted except in the instance of the potential death of the mother (no more mental health loopholes) it puts his utlity into conflict with me.

So it all comes down to might makes right in these situations. That places us in another problem, but one I assume he is comfortable with. Because I can have different definitions of the worthiness of any given life.

Zomcon JEM on April 30, 2013 at 11:27 AM

And that outlook can be transferred to those late in life that suffer from senility, or other medical issues that affect mental capability and self-reliance. See how easy it is to de-humanize? You luckily missed the abortionist’s scissors, but cheer up – you still have old age to look forward to, when you spend your days in a care home, and someone in control writes you off as “lacking consideration of the self” and therefore “not cost effective to maintain” and “trips” over your plug. Or worse, just decides to stop feeding you. Because “[i]t is killing and that’s ok.”

How schadenfreudian will it be when you become a example of your own philosophy.

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 10:50 AM

*applauds*

totherightofthem on April 30, 2013 at 11:30 AM

So, until murder rates exceed 70K per year in non gun-free zones, I think the prudent thing to do is ignore any of your ranting or raving about gun control since 69+K murders per year committed against innocent lives is just peachy-keen with you.

AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 10:56 AM

I was going to bring up this very point, but you said it better than I could.

(just one quibble: it’s “1/100 as much” not “100 times less”)

jdpaz on April 30, 2013 at 11:37 AM

Of course I meant libby. He needs one of those victim recovery plans that starts with “it’s not your fault”.

slickwillie2001 on April 30, 2013 at 11:24 AM

There’s more to the story, but I don’t want to derail the thread even more…but it has something to do with lfod’s extreme lack of self-awareness.

Thanks for the clarification.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 11:40 AM

Here is the only way I support a ban on post 13 week abortions:

1. All natal care is paid for by the state in top of the line facilities.
2. Adoption agencies with proven track records of care and sympathy towards mothers are on hand to facilitate an adoption.
3. Federal law is passed requiring all employers to provide 10 months of paid maternity leave and banning employers from firing new mothers once they return for at least 6 months.
4. Federal law is passed increasing support for early childhood education in impoverished communities.

Then post 13 week abortions can be banned.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 10:18 AM

I know, personally, multiple families who have paid tens of thousands of dollars to communist countries just for the privilege to adopt a child. Many of them did so because they were unable to adopt in the U.S.

I’m confident that funding of natal care for women who are pregnant and do not want to keep their child could be arranged through charitable adoption agencies, rather than government-run. One example of many is Mercy Ministries.

If you could support the concept of post 13 week abortions being banned, then you seem to agree that those “fetuses” are living human beings. For that, I commend you. But, thinking more deeply, what difference does 13 weeks make? From the moment of conception to the 13 week mark, the only difference is the passage of time.

And you know full well that if two times more time is allowed to pass (another 26 weeks past the 13), a full-term baby will be born. All of the genetic material for that baby, it’s unique DNA blueprint, is present from the moment of conception.

Every cell in the mother’s body has her unique DNA.

And every cell in the baby’s body has its own DNA, unique from its mother’s DNA.

When a woman talks about “her body”, “her body” includes those cells which contain her DNA.

So abortion is not really about “her body”, but rather about removing the body of another human being with its own DNA, simply because the mother does not want to inconvenience herself with carrying that baby to term and giving it up for adoption.

The only logical point in time to conclude that a baby goes from “not life” to “life” is at conception. The baby starts growing from that very instant, and merely needs time to be viable outside its mother’s womb. If it’s wrong to kill that baby after birth, then it’s wrong to kill that baby at 26 weeks, 13 weeks, or 13 days.

I would agree that we need to empower and enable organizations that provide natal care and adoption services, and employers need to give maternity leave.

Let’s do the morally right thing and protect everyone’s God-given (endowed by our Creator) unalienable rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

ITguy on April 30, 2013 at 11:47 AM

BTW 9%, if right, is a HUGE number. That’s >75k a year (see libs 3/4million #).

Just to put it in context; If ,say, 1 out of 50 abortions are at around 6months (2% or 1 out of 5 late term abortions) that would be ~15000 dead, “viable”(sick term) babies a year. 15000 “collections of cells”(at 6 months old), 40 a day, that got snipped or flushed. No doctor I have known would call that a small number of deaths.

This is in America, not China. Sickos like lib and co are the small minority. The liberals I know would not be doing a happy dance about 75k annual late term abortions like libfree is.

But the truth ,as already posted, is that the real #s are almost certainly much higher.

BoxHead1 on April 30, 2013 at 11:55 AM

~75000

BoxHead1 on April 30, 2013 at 11:57 AM

For anyone who has had an abortion and is now struggling, please know that you are loved and while people do have anger at the innocent loss of life, there is also compassion for someone who felt that that was their only “choice”. (I haven’t had an abortion but I know people who have). It is so easy to buy into the propaganda and not really realize what has happened until later, even years later. Please check out Rachels Vineyard (rachelsvineyard.org). They don’t judge and they can help you forgive yourself and heal.

Boudica on April 30, 2013 at 12:17 PM

Just love the two gay men on this thread defending abortion./

thatsafactjack on April 30, 2013 at 12:33 PM

I would agree . . . employers need to give maternity leave.

ITguy on April 30, 2013 at 11:47 AM

But, defend that. Please.

Axe on April 30, 2013 at 12:37 PM

Aren’t we all just a mass of cells?

CrustyB on April 30, 2013 at 11:04 AM

Love that. Using that.

“So are you!”

Axe on April 30, 2013 at 12:50 PM

liberal morals

ultracon on April 30, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Here is what this data reveals about Live Nation, Kirsten Powers and Ed Morrissey’s intellectual dishonesty. Not only are late term abortions less than 9% of abortions conducted each year in this country, Gosnell represents an aberration *within* an aberration. Fundamentally, to say “this is what abortion really is,” constitutes a bold faced lie or massive ignorance. Take your pick. Ed, you should know better, this is publicly available data.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Yeah, 65,000 butchered children a year is such a dishonest thing to report on…

I concur with Ed: This is what abortion really is. It has nothing to do with when an abortion occurs, but the fact that a life is taken. In fact the uncomfortable truth for you ghouls is life. That is why those who support abortion refuse to ever say at what point they believe life begins. Exposing this awful butchering of children of late-term abortions exposes the lies that the entire abortion industry is built upon. Your ridiculous hair splitting is just a silly attempt to distract from that fact.

NotCoach on April 30, 2013 at 12:57 PM

No better illustration of the prevalence of abortion in the black community can be found than in New York City. According to 2011 statistics, 41% of all pregnancies were terminated in 2011, which was higher than the abortion rate in China – 29.3% – where forced abortions are commonplace. New York City’s abortion rate is double the national average. In The Bronx, 48% of pregnancies are aborted. Among African-Americans, the rate is 57%. Mayor Bloomberg, along with Governor Cuomo, are doing everything that they can to ensure that NYC’s abortion rate goes even higher.

Resist We Much on April 30, 2013 at 1:01 PM

thuja is a monster. Don’t treat it as human.

John the Libertarian on April 30, 2013 at 1:11 PM

Here is what this data reveals about Live Nation, Kirsten Powers and Ed Morrissey’s intellectual dishonesty. Not only are late term abortions less than 9% of abortions conducted each year in this country, Gosnell represents an aberration *within* an aberration. Fundamentally, to say “this is what abortion really is,” constitutes a bold faced lie or massive ignorance. Take your pick. Ed, you should know better, this is publicly available data.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Well, as long as it’s only 70,000 lives a year, it must be OK!!

Except the proportion of late term abortions is not the only important point here. There’s also the unsanitary conditions, the use of people who were not qualified medical practitioners — and no, finishing medical school without serving any residency at all does not equate to being a qualified medical practitioner, and the cash-only nature of the business while providing substandard care. Just for starters. And the evidence is accumulating that these are not at all unusual for abortion clinics.

But this is the face of abortion in another and commonplace way: the way that governments refuse to properly regulate a dangerous business like abortion clinics just because they are politically well-connected. New York state has even eliminated the need for abortions to be done by qualified doctors. Now, if you’re just a nurse practitioner or a midwife you can perform an abortion.

Where else in our hyper-regulated society is it ok to take such a casual approach to safety?

There Goes the Neighborhood on April 30, 2013 at 1:18 PM

Wow, based upon your previous postings, one must infer that you are OK with killing the unborn and that you acknowledge that it is killing.AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM
Well, yeah. This should be true for any pro-choice person. There is no reason for you to announce this like it is some great new insight.
thuja on April 30, 2013 at 11:15 AM

Yes, it SHOULD !
Will you please start sharing that with them ?
Because most understand that indisputable fact.
Thanks, appreciate your help.

pambi on April 30, 2013 at 1:21 PM

pambi on April 30, 2013 at 1:21 PM

* Because most do NOT understand ..

pambi on April 30, 2013 at 1:23 PM

Safe, Legal, and Rare has now officially morphed into un-regulated, publicly funded, and common.

weaselyone on April 30, 2013 at 1:24 PM

We’re taking libs numbers and using his terms when we say more than 65000 murders. Lets get it straight, there are 750,000 murderous abortions. It doesn’t matter how old the “fetus” is, its a human being and no person has a right to take that human being’s right to live.

Hendo on April 30, 2013 at 1:24 PM

I see what Life Action is doing as positive. I do think it will get us to better honesty about abortion. It is killing and that’s ok.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 9:31 AM

Wow, based upon your previous postings, one must infer that you are OK with killing the unborn and that you acknowledge that it is killing.

Your soul is so dark, it’s smudging mine.

AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Based on thuja’s postings in this very thread, I think we can infer that he is ok with infanticide. So the fact that he is ok with someone who commits infanticide is not surprising.

There Goes the Neighborhood on April 30, 2013 at 1:29 PM

Resist We Much on April 30, 2013 at 1:01 PM

Them blacks bring down property values. Gotta exterminate them so the city can prosper. That’s the only explanation I can think of anyway for why white liberals are so pro-abortion in NYC. There is no explanation for why people like brainfreeordie supports abortion considering abortion is slowly exterminating blacks in the US.

NotCoach on April 30, 2013 at 1:31 PM

Here is what this data reveals about Live Nation, Kirsten Powers and Ed Morrissey’s intellectual dishonesty. Not only are late term abortions less than 9% of abortions conducted each year in this country, Gosnell represents an aberration *within* an aberration. Fundamentally, to say “this is what abortion really is,” constitutes a bold faced lie or massive ignorance. Take your pick. Ed, you should know better, this is publicly available data.

libfreeordie on April 30, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Well, as long as it’s only 70,000 lives a year, it must be OK!!

There Goes the Neighborhood on April 30, 2013 at 1:18 PM

Let’s take 70,000 a year.

Fifty-two weeks a year yields 1346 a week.

Seven days a week yields 192 a day.

24 hours a day yields 8 every hour.

Or 1 every 8 minutes.

1 every eight minutes, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

Yeah, its a aberration alright.

In the word of Victor Montoya, “I don’t think you know what that word means.”

itsspideyman on April 30, 2013 at 1:37 PM

Well, yeah. This should be true for any pro-choice person. There is no reason for you to announce this like it is some great new insight.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 11:15 AM

So why can’t we just kill all the impoverished people to help the financial crisis? If killing is fine in the service of the greater good, I see no real issue here.

Good Solid B-Plus on April 30, 2013 at 1:38 PM

We’re taking libs numbers and using his terms when we say more than 65000 murders. Lets get it straight, there are 750,000 murderous abortions. It doesn’t matter how old the “fetus” is, its a human being and no person has a right to take that human being’s right to live.

Hendo on April 30, 2013 at 1:24 PM

Not disputing that at all; totally agree that all abortion is murder except in the case of saving the mother’s life in which case it is justifiable homicide in self-defense.

We are just using libstupid’s numbers to indict him on the fact that even with his worldview, he is condoning 68K murders per year while feigning outrage when a far smaller number is murdered by some madman and using those instances as justification for disarming all law abiding citizens. Just pointing out the hypocrisy, not accepting the premise.

AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 1:40 PM

So why can’t we just kill all the impoverished people to help the financial crisis? If killing is fine in the service of the greater good, I see no real issue here.

Good Solid B-Plus on April 30, 2013 at 1:38 PM

Better yet anyone who doesn’t own property. The only things they contribute are poop on police cars and rape tents.

NotCoach on April 30, 2013 at 1:47 PM

Just pointing out the hypocrisy, not accepting the premise.

AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 1:40 PM

But we do tacitly accept the premise when we use those numbers. Its just like using the term “pro-choice” rather than “pro-abortion”. I just think its a step in the wrong direction and we do it all the time.

Hendo on April 30, 2013 at 1:49 PM

The catch here is that people like libfree, thuja, and armin all erroneously believe that THEY will be the Central Planners, making the call on others’ lives and death. They fail to realize that that won’t happen – someone else will be the Central Planner that will make the call on THEIR life or death. And only then will the lesson sink in about how wrong they are, and their arm flailing will really begin.

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 10:43 AM

Central planning of people’s lives is exactly what I am most staunchly opposed to, and it’s for that reason that my principles are so unpopular here with the little tyrants who are just as eager as any liberal to micromanage the private affairs of others under the fig leaf of “protecting babies” and other such bullsh*t excuses.

Armin Tamzarian on April 30, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Armin Tamzarian on April 30, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Thank you…for adding nothing new to the conversation but the same old trite talking points.

22044 on April 30, 2013 at 2:12 PM

If you want a safer environment that a PP clinic, find a back alley.

RSbrewer on April 30, 2013 at 2:35 PM

kingsjester on April 30, 2013 at 9:50 AM

I think they draw the line at puppies.

TexAz on April 30, 2013 at 2:37 PM

TexAz on April 30, 2013 at 2:37 PM

Not some of them around here.

kingsjester on April 30, 2013 at 2:40 PM

BOR is a freaking idiot…that is all

unseen on April 30, 2013 at 2:46 PM

You know if the left can continue to bring up gun control which is opposed my the vast majority of the country. The right should bring up abortion which is also opposed by the vast majority of the country. If you don’t want a baby keep you legs closed. This isn’t rocket science. Sex is great but only people who are ready to deal with the consequences of the act should be having it. Abortion is not a get out of jail free card. A life should not be ended because the man or woman does not want to deal with those consequenes.

unseen on April 30, 2013 at 2:49 PM

micromanage the private affairs of others under the fig leaf of “protecting babies”

Armin Tamzarian on April 30, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Ah, but the catch is, it’s not a fig leaf if they are, indeed, babies. It’s not “micromanaging” to have a law that prevents child abuse (and I mean ABUSE) or murder. There, the state is not micromanaging anything – it’s stepping into protect the rights of others that are being “wronged” by the mother’s action, a “police action”. Because, if it really is just a collection of cells, like a mole to wart, then no one has an issue if you unilaterally go to a doctor for removal.

But let’s face the harsh reality – a developing fetus/child is not just a wart or mole – and as a result, it deserves more than to be disregarded as such. But to do so would remove the “abortion on demand, my way or the highway” rights that women currently enjoy, which crap all over the father’s interests, not to mention the developing child’s. I had feminists in law school that summed it up as “if the father can skip out on the kid and not pay, why shouldn’t I be able to”. Abortion was the freedom for the dead-beat mom. Two wrongs make a right? And even that isn’t true, as a father can still be held liable for financial support, at least – the mother is required to do “nothing” until birth, not even be forced to give birth and relinquish parental rights to the father.

Women arm-flail about govt. control of their bodies, that govt. is taking control of their uterus – but the women that (outside of rape) get pregnant end up that way because 1) they choose to get pregnant or 2) THEY don’t have control over their bodies as it is, evidenced by their making of stupid, ill-informed choices. And abortion becomes a way to dodge those consequences, and dodge the emotional growth that comes up facing them.

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 3:03 PM

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 3:03 PM

Doesn’t say much for the other side when all they’ve got are strawmen.

NotCoach on April 30, 2013 at 4:12 PM

The part that gets me about liberals and their unwavering support of abortion is that it just isn’t logically compatible with progressive social policies. You can’t have a system of social security entitlements that requires an ever expanding population of people and at the same time champion abortion practices that eliminate 1/3 of potential people from the population. We see perfect examples of how the pyramid scheme comes tumbling down in places like Europe and Japan where their birth rates aren’t keeping up with the rate of deaths. Hell, Germany has to pay woman to keep their babies. Something that can’t go on for ever….won’t.

Heftyjo on April 30, 2013 at 4:28 PM

Good Solid B-Plus on April 30, 2013 at 1:38 PM

Yeah, that is what it comes down to – and where folks like Thuja typically get quiet, unless they are real comfortable with nasty things happening to them or their loved ones.

A society based upon utility of life is a cold one. And it always ends up with some variety of government sanctioned murder.

Zomcon JEM on April 30, 2013 at 4:37 PM

Wow, based upon your previous postings, one must infer that you are OK with killing the unborn and that you acknowledge that it is killing.

AZfederalist on April 30, 2013 at 10:21 AM

Well, yeah. This should be true for any pro-choice person. There is no reason for you to announce this like it is some great new insight.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 11:15 AM

Wow. Just wow.

I don’t have to “paint” you as anything, thuja. The vast majority of posters here find your philosophical utilitarianism to be utterly repugnant, as do I. You can chalk that up to a difference of opinion, but given that you and I are on diametrically opposite sides of this question, either you are wrong, or I am.

Utilitarianism is, by its very nature, a denial of intrinsic human dignity, which is what our founding fathers had in mind when they threw off the mantle of the British crown. How anyone can freely claim to be utilitarian and “conservative” as I understand the term is beyond me, but oh well. Some things I’ll just never understand.

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 5:27 PM

gryphon202 on April 30, 2013 at 5:27 PM

I think lots of conservatives call themselves libertarians because they don’t want to share a bucket with people saying men having sex with men is bad, or smoking pot is bad, and that’s their connotation of “conservative.” I think a lot of libertarians call themselves conservative for reciprocal reasons. The lines between those two positions looks like a gerrymandered voting district as people just sort of settle vaguely into place and pick the name they think is coolest. A weird percentage of people self-identifying as Atheists believe in God, and I’m beginning to suspect vast numbers of Christians don’t. I know we have intellectuals taken for idiots, and idiots passing as intellectuals. The guy at the podium railing against adultery really is next, just like mom said. Then, totalitarians are passing as libertines, free-speech enthusiasts trying to shout down people with whom they disagree . . .

If Ronald McDonald showed up at a Vegan conference, I would shrug at this point.

*shrug*

Axe on April 30, 2013 at 7:16 PM

Just snip his spine with some scissors and toss the detritus in the trash.

Bishop on April 30, 2013 at 10:56 AM

We’ll euphemize it as “a late-late-late-late-post-birth abortion or pregnancy materiel “. A statistically insignificant decision, perhaps amounting to 9%, say?

/Wordplay is fun.

Saltyron on April 30, 2013 at 11:04 AM

Perhaps he “doesn’t have the qualities of personhood such as consideration of the self as an ongoing project required to be a human being.” I think I’ve got the hang of this. After all, the whole point of moral relativism is not having a fixed point of reference for what words mean, amiright?

Parabellum on April 30, 2013 at 8:55 PM

I think lots of conservatives call themselves libertarians because they don’t want to share a bucket with people saying men having sex with men is bad, or smoking pot is bad, and that’s their connotation of “conservative.” I think a lot of libertarians call themselves conservative for reciprocal reasons. The lines between those two positions looks like a gerrymandered voting district as people just sort of settle vaguely into place and pick the name they think is coolest. A weird percentage of people self-identifying as Atheists believe in God, and I’m beginning to suspect vast numbers of Christians don’t. I know we have intellectuals taken for idiots, and idiots passing as intellectuals. The guy at the podium railing against adultery really is next, just like mom said. Then, totalitarians are passing as libertines, free-speech enthusiasts trying to shout down people with whom they disagree . . .

Axe on April 30, 2013 at 7:16 PM

Socrates described this 25 centuries ago: people don’t know themselves well. But even though this has been known for 25 centuries, to state it as well as you have still shows uncommon wisdom.

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 8:58 PM

* Because most do NOT understand ..

pambi on April 30, 2013 at 1:23 PM

I make the same mistake all the time, leaving out the “not”. We must just be too positive people!

thuja on April 30, 2013 at 9:03 PM

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