Why is DHS stockpiling so much ammo?

posted at 9:31 am on April 28, 2013 by Jazz Shaw

Even realizing that he was going to immediately be labeled as a Right wing conspiracy theorist by the Left, Congressman Jason Chaffetz posed a rather pesky question to the Department of Homeland Security this week which is sure to get a lot of tongues wagging. Why do they need to purchase huge stockpiles of ammunition? Far more, in fact, than the Army buys on a per capita basis.

Homeland Security’s procurement officer is grilled in Congress on why federal agents who rarely fire weapons need several times more bullets annually than an Army officer. Who or what are they shooting at?

Republican Rep. Jason Chaffetz on Thursday asked Nick Nayak, DHS’ chief procurement officer, a question we and others have been asking: Why has the Department of Homeland Security been buying so much ammunition?

Dismissed as a concern only of right-wing conspiracy theorists, the reported amounts as high as 2 billion rounds have varied and been explained not as a one-time purchase but a bulk buy over five years to reduce costs. It’s one of the rare instances, apparently, a government agency has actually cared about such a thing.

Chaffetz notes that DHS is currently sitting on more than 260 million rounds of ammunition. Their current claimed rate of expending bullets works out to between 1,300 and 1,600 rounds per officer each year, while the Army averages 350 per officer. Nyak agreed with the math, but insisted that DHS goes through roughly that amount every year, almost exclusively for training. But if it’s for training, there’s another question to be answered.

Jonathan L. Lasher, the Social Security Administration’s assistant inspector general for external relations, has previously explained the purchase of 174,000 hollow-point bullets by saying they were for the Social Security inspector general’s office…

Another question is why so many hollow-point bullets are being purchased?

As former Marine Richard Mason recently told reporters with WHPTV News in Pennsylvania, hollow-points (which make up the bulk of the DHS purchases) are not used for training because they are more expensive than standard firing-range rounds. “We never trained with hollow points. We didn’t even see hollow points my entire 4-1/2 (years) in the Marine Corps,” Mason said.

That’s a lot of ammo. And that’s one heck of a lot of hollow points to be wasting on paper targets. If you click through to the IBD editorial you’ll find some of the alternate theory explanations of where all this ammunition is going and why the government would want so much. I don’t need to expand on that here. But even if there is a legitimate need for that many rounds just for training in one federal department every year, how much money is being wasted by not using standard rounds for target practice? I wonder if the cost would have kept a couple more airport towers open?


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3

oh, and what will you do with those of us who are ‘disqualified’?

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 11:12 AM

Just for you: Deportation to country of choice. If you don’t choose, the UK. You’ll love being unarmed there.

nobar on April 28, 2013 at 11:13 AM

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013

A little sad life you have babe.

CW on April 28, 2013 at 11:15 AM

oh, and what will you do with those of us who are ‘disqualified’?

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 11:12 AM

Fulfill the Liberian promise.

tom daschle concerned on April 28, 2013 at 11:15 AM

As to hollow points that’s lawyer’s fault. When I started out we trained with flat nosed semi wad cutter. Lawyers decided there was liability in not training with what you carry in the field so now there’s no difference between duty carry and training ammo.

mongoose on April 28, 2013 at 9:59 AM

Now that is the very first explanation I have read of regular HP use at the practice range that makes sense! Thanks, mongoose.

deepdiver on April 28, 2013 at 11:15 AM

If I remember correct, from working with NASA (and dealing with the purchasing guys), the government gets about the same price no matter how much they buy. It is all on the GSA schedule and they can buy it anytime for the same price and same discount.

rgranger on April 28, 2013 at 11:16 AM

and eating from the scraps of his master.

HiJack on April 28, 2013 at 11:13 AM

partisan eats the corn from obambi’s dumps on a daily basis.

VegasRick on April 28, 2013 at 11:17 AM

Got anything to back that up? I support a small and medium sized Sheriff’s Office as well as two small and a medium sized police department. NONE of them buy ammo from DHS.

Yasherka on April 28, 2013 at 10:03 AM

Ask and you shall receive.

http://blogs.militarytimes.com/gearscout/2013/03/15/homeland-securitys-ammunition-purchases-should-not-worry-you/

Of note in that article:

But isn’t a total which might approach 90 or 100 million rounds per year excessive?

DHS is a massive umbrella agency, with over 100,000 armed law enforcement personnel according to a DHS spokesperson. If we divide 90 million by 100,000, that means each agent gets 900 rounds per year to shoot. That isn’t a whole lot, considering that civilians going through handgun training courses sometimes shoot twice as many rounds – in a single weekend.

Furthermore, federal agents, including those under DHS, generally use the same ammunition for duty and practice. Currently, it’s a .40 S&W jacketed hollow point made by Federal, commonly known as the HST. Most of DHS’s evil, banned-for-war, elderly-and-baby-killing hollow points end up going through paper targets and into dirt berms. Each CBP (Customs and Border Protection) agent is currently given 250 rounds per quarter, or 1000 rounds per year. While things may differ from agency to agency, that lines up fairly nicely with the above math for the 450 million round contract.

In other words, that 5-year, up-to-450 million round ammo purchase is just what the agencies need to sustain proficiency for the next 5 years.

Defenestratus on April 28, 2013 at 11:18 AM

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 11:04 AM

But the POS that you worship doesn’t believe in the constitution and his america hating wife doesn’t understand why the flag is a big deal, so I guess your fvcked. Then again you’ll be fvcked by the love of your life so you’re down with that.

BeachBum on April 28, 2013 at 11:18 AM

Why does the Federal Government buy up vacant land?
Why does the Fed. Govt. buy food stock to convert to fuel?
Why does Fed. Govt. deny oil & gas permits?
Why does Fed. Govt. advance Fed. Govt. healthcare?
Why does Fed. Govt. over regulate coal & nuclear energy at the same time waste money on green energy?
It is all the same to them.

fourdeucer on April 28, 2013 at 11:19 AM

LOL – are we still pretending that we don’t already know the answer to that one? Are we still pretending that this is the “land of the free”? Are we still pretending that we have “the rule of law”?

Weak tea Jazz my firend, weak tea indeed.
Lighten up patriots, it wont be that bad!

abobo on April 28, 2013 at 11:20 AM

Most armed DHS LE are going to go through a LOT more than 1,300 rounds in a year. That’s more like what they will shoot in a month.

[KevinB on April 28, 2013 at 9:45 AM]

Per the IBD article:

He said the department bought more than 103 million rounds in 2012 and used 116 million that same year among roughly 70,000 agents.

Most DHS LE would be above 35,000. At 1,300 rounds per month, that would be 546M rounds DHS uses per year if the other 35,000 used none at all.

Are you saying that most DHS LE 430M round per year (12k+ rounds each) out of pocket for their job training?

Maybe you mean most line LE, the ones actually doing the firearm wielding work on the job and required to have enhanced training standards. That would be 116M divided by 15,600 rounds/yr for a result of 7,436 DHS LE, assuming no other DHS LE used a round. That’s only 10%, not most of 74K, and I while I realize DHS in general is considered incompetent, I don’t see that that would include establishing a training standard that only 10% of armed officers have to meet.

Dusty on April 28, 2013 at 11:20 AM

This was explained and the reasons are far less sinister than we think they are.

Basically the DHS is acting as an umbrella organization for Law Enforcement Agencies all over the country. Everything from the NYPD to the Hazzard County Sheriff’s department are ordering their ammo through DHS because of the deal worked out by DHS to procure said ammo from the manufacturers.

When you add in all the LEO’s that these organizations employ, that per capital number gets inverted real quick.

As much as I’d like to indulge in a nice bit of conspiracy theorizing, it simply isn’t the case in this instance.

Defenestratus on April 28, 2013 at 9:51 AM

Retired state peace officer here. Qualified twice a year on multiple weapons, including shotgun and multiple long guns including full automatic. We did not, nor do we now, purchase through DHS, nor did we carry or train with hollow points. I am personal friends with our County Sheriff, and know a number of local cops. Neither department purchases through DHS. None of us use anywhere near that many rounds per year. That story is pure BS.

And all three departments are having trouble finding ammunition.

When dealing with the reliability of a source, a major part of that judgment is how truthful they have been in the past. Look at the Obama administration in general, and the DHS in particular; and what is their record of a) telling the truth, b) following the laws and directions of Congress, and c) following the Constitution? I knew junkie informants who could be considered more reliable than Napolitano.

Why stockpile ammunition and put out multiple lies about it?

1) there is a vast number of Americans who have taken the Oath to the Constitution and who take it seriously.
2) there is every indication [and their public statements] that the current administration and supporters view the Constitution as an obstacle to be overcome to get their way.
3) Buraq Hussein Obama’s political career literally started in the Chicago living room of his friend, former-Weatherman, admitted terrorist Bill Ayers. He says so in his two autobiographies. From a 1982 video documentary about Bill Ayers filmed by Larry Grathwohl, No Place to Hide: The Strategy and Tactics of Terrorism by the Western Goals Foundation:

I asked, “Well what is going to happen to those people we can’t reeducate, that are diehard capitalists?” And the reply was that they’d have to be eliminated.

And when I pursued this further, they estimated they would have to eliminate 25 million people in these reeducation centers.

And when I say “eliminate,” I mean “kill.”

Twenty-five million people.

I want you to imagine sitting in a room with 25 people, most of which have graduate degrees, from Columbia and other well-known educational centers, and hear them figuring out the logistics for the elimination of 25 million people and they were dead serious.

They are stockpiling that much ammunition because they know that their people are not that good shots, and there will be fire and movement in return as they try to get that 25 million into those camps.

Subotai Bahadur on April 28, 2013 at 11:20 AM

One of the answers to why is their marksmanship standards are pathetic. I takes them 200 rounds to do what a marksman can do in two. I think it is called spray and pray.

meci on April 28, 2013 at 11:22 AM

It’s Obama’s backdoor gun regulation policy. If he can’t get the guns, some genius figured out that they could get the ammo.

I cannot believe how much 9mm fmj is going for these days. My local Walmart hasn’t had any in over 4 months. It’s ridiculous!

St Gaudens on April 28, 2013 at 11:03 AM

Here, our Academy gets trucks every MWF, and they always have 9mm – it doesn’t last beyond the crowd that were waiting outside the door when it opens, but they have it, and some people get it, lol.

The Wal-Marts also get some, but its a matter of when during they day do they stock it, so you might (if you havent already) ask one of the WM employees that staff that area of the store when they usually stock things in that area (late night, evening, morning, etc). They typically won’t know what’s coming in until they get it, but if you know about when to to check, you can luck out. I rarely see any, but have a buddy who got a couple 500 round boxes by being there at the right time. Of course that means you’re there at the right time a few times and they don’t get any, too.

That said, there are some websites that only monitor and track in-stock inventory at online retailers, and their sites update automatically, can send you email alerts, etc. You have to be fast, though, because they, too, don’t usually get a bunch in, and it can go quickly. And, of course you have to pay shipping so that bumps your ‘per round’ price up a bit.

FWIW, the prices on 7.62×39 have been coming down quite a bit over the last couple of weeks, but 223, 9mm, 22lr are still routinely nuts – but available, so its a question of whether you want it that bad, or not. Most retail places simply don’t have it, and some online places have gone berserk (for example, check out cheaperthandirt.com and see what their lowest price ‘cheap’ 9mm round is going for right now… even their low-end steel cased fmj rounds are going for more than $1/round, which is nuts. I can find it down in the $.70/round area with ease, in stock – and that’s still too expensive for me to buy any right now (imo). Of course, I’d been buying more than I use for awhile long before the prices went nuts, so I’ve got a nice stockpile and dont feel an urgent need to buy at these prices. I do still find some in the .35/round or less range and nab a bit more when I do.

g’luck!

Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:24 AM

When you add in all the LEO’s that these organizations employ, that per capital number gets inverted real quick.

Defenestratus on April 28, 2013 at 9:51 AM

Except that their own guy confirmed the match, so… why take pains to refute their own people?

It’s like people that are surprised when Obama does something he said he would do – why the eagerness to look for a reason – any reason – to believe it isn’t true.

Their guy said the math is right – but you’re working to reason a way that it’s probably not. Go figure.

Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:28 AM

They are stockpiling that much ammunition because they know that their people are not that good shots, and there will be fire and movement in return as they try to get that 25 million into those camps.

Subotai Bahadur on April 28, 2013 at 11:20 AM

If or when this happens we will see people who are ordinarily weak and cowardly turn into patriots willing to die for their country. Patriotism has that effect on people no matter what walk in life or what country they come from. But if they grab our guns, the jig is up. Finished. Over.

HiJack on April 28, 2013 at 11:28 AM

It’s time we disband/defund DHS. It is a Bush bondoggle that is doing nothing to increase our safety and is instead taking our rights away.

unseen on April 28, 2013 at 11:28 AM

This is where the FEDS are getting some of their employees!

Yes! I found it!

The TV show was called The Hoarders.

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/hoarding-buried-alive.

IlikedAUH2O on April 28, 2013 at 11:31 AM

oh, and what will you do with those of us who are ‘disqualified’?

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 11:12 AM

We’ve agreed that I won’t be making that decision.

You wouldn’t like my decision.

Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:32 AM

Tell me that woman couldn’t be the head of DHS’s sister.

IlikedAUH2O on April 28, 2013 at 11:32 AM

Colleges are now offering degrees in DHS. I’m not kidding.

tom daschle concerned on April 28, 2013 at 11:32 AM

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m ready to dig a foxhole.

I’m sick of progs and leftards.
There’s no negotiation. for 100 years there hasn’t been.

I don’t even understand why we argue with them.

Keep pushing progs. For all my life, the backlash. I lived it, and I’m pissed off.

Every round will count. You bastards have wrecked everything. Stupid doesn’t even cut it. No concept of history.

Fools.

Reap it.

wolly4321 on April 28, 2013 at 11:34 AM

This is where the FEDS are getting some of their employees!

Yes! I found it!

The TV show was called The Hoarders.

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/hoarding-buried-alive.

IlikedAUH2O on April 28, 2013 at 11:31 AM

I think you misspelled “The Whores”.

VegasRick on April 28, 2013 at 11:34 AM

Defenestratus on April 28, 2013 at 11:18 AM

Well, that article uses 9 million rounds and 100,000 armed employees to do it’s math; other sites indicated 1.6 billion rounds, and more like 60,000 armed DHS employees. It does change the math a bit; whether it’s a realistic number or not is the question.

Again, let’s refer to the fact that the ARMY uses about 350 rounds per person per year in training.

By any calculation, the DHS is ‘using’, if to be believed, considerably more. One could ask either 1) why are they training so much more than our MILITARY, or 2) are they lying?

Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:38 AM

We typically qualified twice annually and went to the range two to four other times during the year for mandatory training. I would say we averaged 200-400 rounds per date, although sometimes if I was in trial or busy with a case I would go and fire the 50 needed to qualify and go back to work.

[mongoose on April 28, 2013 at 9:59 AM]

So, the bare minimum of needing to qualify for one firearm is a yearly round use range of 800 to 2400 rounds.

Thanks for the providing that perspective.

Dusty on April 28, 2013 at 11:38 AM

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m ready to dig a foxhole.

I’m sick of progs and leftards.
There’s no negotiation. for 100 years there hasn’t been.

I don’t even understand why we argue with them.

Keep pushing progs. For all my life, the backlash. I lived it, and I’m pissed off.

Every round will count. You bastards have wrecked everything. Stupid doesn’t even cut it. No concept of history.

Fools.

Reap it.

wolly4321 on April 28, 2013 at 11:34 AM

Yeah, that pretty well sums it up.

Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:39 AM

We typically qualified twice annually and went to the range two to four other times during the year for mandatory training. I would say we averaged 200-400 rounds per date, although sometimes if I was in trial or busy with a case I would go and fire the 50 needed to qualify and go back to work.

[mongoose on April 28, 2013 at 9:59 AM]

So, the bare minimum of needing to qualify for one firearm is a yearly round use range of 800 to 2400 rounds.

Thanks for the providing that perspective.

Dusty on April 28, 2013 at 11:38 AM

Ok, does this simply mean that the quoted military usage for training of ~350 rounds/year is incorrect? Or have I also seen individuals point out that their LE/military training usage was consistent with that amount, and the reality is that different people, different branches, etc – different usage, some of which corroborates all of the data points in this story, from low to high? lol

Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:41 AM

well how else are the Black Panthers going to come confiscate your guns, wingnuts???

P.S. Nice to see Hot gas follow Drudge down the alex Jones rabbit hole

DBear on April 28, 2013 at 11:44 AM

I’ll say it. Your a prog? I’d put you against a wall . 120 million dead because of your bullshit ideas.

I’d give you a blindfold and a cig.

Trust me,, we will win. The human spirit beats your communist bullshit. Just takes time, and bullets.

Try harder. I’m ready.

wolly4321 on April 28, 2013 at 11:48 AM

LOL, this is funny – the ‘bullets per employee’ is interesting and informative, but the bit about how the size of DHS compares with foreign militaries in general is informative (on a # of personnel basis, the 37th largest ‘active military’ in the world’, and on a budget/funding basis, the 6th largest in the world).

Well, unless you think that 135,000 armed DHS officers is a lot. The armed portion of DHS is large enough to make it the 37th largest active duty military in the world. Bigger than Venezuela’s 115,000, Jordan’s 111,000, and almost twice as large as Canada’s 68,000. And that’s comparing just armed DHS officers to the entire active duty military, brass and bureaucrats included. If you take all of DHS, it comes in at #25, larger than the UK’s 198,000.

It’s larger than Iraq’s 192,000 and Israel’s 177,000, and you can bet that Iraq and Israel’s militaries are much more involved in homeland security than the DHS is. Not just their own, either. Iraq and Israel’s militaries likely do more for American homeland security than the DHS does.

In terms of spending, DHS’s $55.1 billion annual budget would make it the 6th largest military in the world. The only nations that would be bigger are the United States, China, Russia, the UK and France.

Forget having a bullet for every man, woman, and child in the United States, DHS has $177.74 per year for each of us. There’s 1 DHS employee for about every 1,500 Americans. Instead of the joke of security theater that goes on in the airports, each night of the week each DHS employee should take out 1-2 families to Cheesecake Factory, buy everyone an appetizer, entree, and dessert, give them a $100 bill and ask them to please not blow up any airplanes. Air travel would be quicker and more pleasant, we wouldn’t increase the risk of terrorist attacks one iota, and the nation would save about $8.6 billion a year.

DHS has 1 bullet and $177.74 for each of us

Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:49 AM

bagger revolution!!!!!
nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 10:37 AM
Why don’t they train with those non-lethal shotguns? I assume they would be cheaper…
from my understanding, a skeet gun would lack killing power as its not built to kill
nonpartisan on April 7, 2013 at 11:45 AM
slickwillie2001 on April 28, 2013 at 10:58 AM

Those skeet guns are murder! Lol.
I see Axelrod had a headache this morning and got off the trolls early. Their ‘quick wit and a$$ tongues will go far when the bullets start flying, Noforeskin and Douchebear will be the first ones hooking it on the street for a can of Vienna sausages.

A cousin in DHS told me that they are limiting the amount of ammo they give out on qual days. So, this is interesting.

RovesChins on April 28, 2013 at 11:49 AM

Arms and Ammo purchases as a function of physics and political philosophy:

“We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.” Barack Hussein Obama.

Civilian security forces swear an oath of obedience to politicians (Governors and President). Military Forces swear an oath solely to defend the Constitution. The existence of an expanding and increasingly powerful DHS (and its arms and ammo purchases), coupled with ongoing aggressive efforts by politicians to weaken the Bill of Rights, and the Posse Comitatus Act severely restricting the US military from fulfilling its oath domestically, may have signaled to the populace an undesirable shift in the balance of power away from the people and their military to civilian government, if the people do not arm to equalize the balance of power.

This may explain why Americans are arming in record numbers; that they keenly sense a shift in the balance of power and they are arming to restore balance; to restore the conditions upon which our nation was founded, how it is ultimately secured, and what our Founders intended with the Bill of Rights, to always maintain the balance of power in the hands of the people.

Tripwhipper on April 28, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Hey Dbear. Tell me, how did you get so stupid?

wolly4321 on April 28, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Military weapon qual standards are not the same across the board for every specialty.

In the Air Force for example, the Security Forces use much more ammo and the qual standard is much higher than those who qualify once a year to simply maintain the bare standard needed for carrying a firearm. OSI agents are higher still. AF operators use even more.

We could go through millions of rounds (and then some) a year simply qualifying basic trainees to the bare AF standard.

The Standards for the other services are probably similar: not every specialty will fire the same amount of ammo. In the AF, used to be that some folks wouldn’t qualify AT ALL their entire career! But that has changed since the GWoT.

I worked military firearms training and was in charge of the AF Heavy Weapons school for a time. Simply looking at the bare numbers and trying to extrapolate across services and other government agencies can be misleading.

As to HP ammo, we never saw it either…until a decade or so ago. Many CONUS AF bases carry HP ammo now. It’s not forbidden. Only using it in combat, Geneva convention and all that…

And I’ve made the following point many times: the DHS (or other government agencies) are not driving shortages. Panic buying and hoarding is. The government purchases are very specific: 40 cal mostly but also 9mm, 45 ACP, .223, 308. They are note buying up 500 S&W, 38 S&W, .22lr, or other popular calibers to gun owners

There is no grand conspiracy.

catmman on April 28, 2013 at 11:57 AM

A cousin in DHS told me that they are limiting the amount of ammo they give out on qual days. So, this is interesting.

RovesChins on April 28, 2013 at 11:49 AM

In North Korea and in Caaucescu’s Romania, for example, each soldier had to qualify annually…one round at a time. No semi-auto fire, certainly no auto fire…just one round at a time.

Handed a round. Chamber the round. Fire on command. Police the brass. Be handed the next round. Repeat the process.

Why?

To keep steady track of rounds.

The very idea of a soldier salting away a few rounds, or a lot of rounds, even one round, was a threat to the state…one bullet could kill a local commander, a lot of bullets could start a revolt.

coldwarrior on April 28, 2013 at 11:58 AM

We did not, nor do we now, purchase through DHS, nor did we carry or train with hollow points. I am personal friends with our County Sheriff, and know a number of local cops. Neither department purchases through DHS. None of us use anywhere near that many rounds per year. That story is pure BS.

[Subotai Bahadur on April 28, 2013 at 11:20 AM]

That’s not what Defenestratus means and what he is describing is generally accurate, though I don’t know that DHS is the “umbrella” agency in this or all cases for the purchase of ammo.

Counties, states and the Feds do this all the time. They put out annual bids for product delivered. The selected bidder (usually the low bidder), then any other agency can tap into that bid and order the same product at the same price. In, say, a county, they will have a long list of products available — linoleum, computers, carpet, motor oil — that town will be able to then purchase the same without having to go through putting out their own bid when the purchase order exceeds the maximum for not having to solicit bids, which is a costly process.

If an agency is using a bid contract price received via DHS, the purchase order by the agency is not actually going through DHS in any way. In this particular case, I would guess towns and such are going off a state generated purchase list, not the DHS one, and, again, the state would not be involved in the purchase and delivery arrangements as a result of the town placing the order.

Dusty on April 28, 2013 at 11:59 AM

Effing prog. Other side of the line.

I pray for the day we finally settle it.

wolly4321 on April 28, 2013 at 12:07 PM

IMO they are stockpiling for the coming riots/insurrec!ions when the Dollar goes supernova.

unseen on April 28, 2013 at 12:07 PM

if they have it we can’t get it.Seems obvious to me

gerrym51 on April 28, 2013 at 12:12 PM

unseen on April 28, 2013 at 12:07 PM

Dollar going supernova? Has already happened in one country.

We are not that far off from doing it ourselves.

Gonna be interesting times.

coldwarrior on April 28, 2013 at 12:12 PM

bagger revolution!!!!!

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 10:37 AM

Couldn’t you just call us slaves? It’s no less derogatory but that type of slang quickly leads to us being called something like, I don’t know “coack roaches”? Though the government isn’t stock piling machetes …, their condemnation of civilian gun ownership in the midst’s of this is no less than troubling.
Dance around that enough for ya? Massa?

onomo on April 28, 2013 at 12:13 PM

DBare on April 28

noforeskin on April 28, 2013

…Ed put up a thread for you ball-less basturds…you’re late!

KOOLAID2 on April 28, 2013 at 12:15 PM

I think it is institutional paranoia. And way too much believing of The Southern Poverty Law Center’s propaganda.

pat on April 28, 2013 at 12:15 PM

…Ed put up a thread for you ball-less basturds…you’re late!

KOOLAID2 on April 28, 2013 at 12:15 PM

I think they were busy teabanging each other.

VegasRick on April 28, 2013 at 12:20 PM

Baggers UNITE!!! aalalalalallalalllllalalalala!!!!

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 10:49 AM

.
Too late. That’s been done.

Question I’m confronting you with, is:
When push “comes to shove”, will you have a sufficiently secure hiding place?
Ain’t no way, you’re going to the “front lines”. Not voluntarily, anyway.

listens2glenn on April 28, 2013 at 12:23 PM

catmman on April 28, 2013 at 11:57 AM

Was this (amount and policy) SOP in earlier times? If not, why not?

Cleombrotus on April 28, 2013 at 12:24 PM

Ain’t no way, you’re going to the “front lines”. Not voluntarily, anyway.

listens2glenn on April 28, 2013 at 12:23 PM

It will be funny seeing all of the gun control advocates on the “front lines”.

VegasRick on April 28, 2013 at 12:26 PM

FOR one thing only and only one thing.

TO CREATE THE SHORTAGE of AMMO CRISES!!!

Buy up all the ammo so there is none for you and me.

Just guessing.

LurP on April 28, 2013 at 12:27 PM

I was amazed by the size of the ammo buys and did a bit of research…Assuming the 1-2 Billion rounds of ammo under bid is accurate, then one can compare this with the 1.5 Billion rounds of ammunition used by the USA in the Italian Campaign from 1943-1945…

What possible legit reason does the government have for such a vast buy…If I was President I’d stop trying to turn our federal agents into faux armies, remove the military style outfits and arms, stop buying armored vehicles, and then take a close look at federal staffing levels for armed folk. 275 armed agents for the Social security agency is silly. If they need an armed response, ask for help from the FBI.

Things like the Boston ‘lockdown’ are the result of massive police responses by folk all decked out like soldiers…An egregious violation of 4th amendment rights…the more we grow used to such stuff the more we get. House to house gun grabs with Katrina and house to house armed searches in Boston.

JIMV on April 28, 2013 at 12:28 PM

So. Where is the “Red Line” in all of this?

If one person decides enough is enough and decide to take out a wannabe marxist dirtbag, the MSM will crucify him and all conservatives. It will be a non-stop, 24/7 media blitzkrieg.

Where, when, and with whom is the freedom fighter’s rallying point?

davidk on April 28, 2013 at 12:28 PM

t’s time we disband/defund DHS. It is a Bush bondoggle that is doing nothing to increase our safety and is instead taking our rights away.

unseen on April 28, 2013 at 11:28 AM

Another reason I have trouble figuring out the Right’s love affair with this guy.

Cleombrotus on April 28, 2013 at 12:30 PM

Colleges are now offering degrees in DHS. I’m not kidding.

tom daschle concerned on April 28, 2013 at 11:32 AM

And what classes do they take for that degree exactly? ‘Groping Techniques and Methodology’ :)!

jimver on April 28, 2013 at 12:37 PM

What the trolls fail to realize, because their NEA education didn’t teach them, is that when their glorious peoples revolution gets off the ground, it’s useful idiots like them who are among the first against the wall.

CurtZHP on April 28, 2013 at 12:37 PM

Ok, does this simply mean that the quoted military usage for training of ~350 rounds/year is incorrect? Or have I also seen individuals point out that their LE/military training usage was consistent with that amount, and the reality is that different people, different branches, etc – different usage, some of which corroborates all of the data points in this story, from low to high? lol

[Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:41 AM]

I don’t think the ~350 is incorrect. I just think it’s very selective data point in that it was specific to “officers” in the army which I take to be different from officers in LEO.

My comment was personal. I don’t own a firearm, so I don’t “train” and I’ve been trying to get a feeling for the ballpark. Actually the barest minimum would be 100 rounds if one is confident they don’t need practice.

I chose mongoose to respond to because he was very specific about the training regimen and tacked on numbers to it. Others helped me in other ways, so I’ll thank them now.

Bottom line for me is that I’m now comfortable with 1,300 to 1,600 rounds per year as a factoid. I’ll still think it’s on the high side for one firearm, but that’s just me and my lifetime fudge factor rating is something like 1.3.

Dusty on April 28, 2013 at 12:37 PM

oh, and what will you do with those of us who are ‘disqualified’? [as citizens]

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 11:12 AM

.
Just for you: Deportation to country of choice. If you don’t choose, the UK. You’ll love being unarmed there.

nobar on April 28, 2013 at 11:13 AM

.
The UK ? ….. Like hell … send him (her?) to Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Pakistan.

listens2glenn on April 28, 2013 at 12:38 PM

DavidK- no. They can’t overpower us. I’m quiet and live in the shadow. Millions of me. I’m armed well. Behind every blade of grass. Sadly, our gubmint needs that lesson. Again.

wolly4321 on April 28, 2013 at 10:47 AM

I hadn’t read this comment ubtil I posted the above comment.

There are millions just like wolly4321. How do we get together?

I’m hoping our members of our military will set up for the Constitution and our freedom.

But I have no contact with any organization, and I trust very little. When, where, and with whom?

But I certainly don’t want anyone to tip their hand. After all, I may be a spy.

davidk on April 28, 2013 at 12:39 PM

When I got arrested recently, I made a comment about the sweet Sig556 the LEO had in his cruiser. He said they just qualified for the year. 200 rounds at 60 yards.

tom daschle concerned on April 28, 2013 at 12:42 PM

Why is DHS stockpiling so much ammo?

Well … we all saw in Boston how two yahoos running around is enough to bring DHS tanks and armored personnel carriers onto American streets for a full-out martial law crackdown (without martial law having to be declared). Further, we saw that a thousand DHS goofballs were unable to stop the two yahoos from running amok – even when one was injured and on foot – and they weren’t able to catch them or anything even close, so clearly DHS needs more tanks and ammo and everything in order to lock down more American cities the next time one or two yahoos who are of the affirmative action protected species types decide to manufacture pressure cooker WMDs and run around the streets.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on April 28, 2013 at 10:26 AM

It’s obvious that the “DHS goofballs” need more practise, thus more ammo,since over 200 rounds were used at the bomber….and none were the fatal blow….it was the brother running him over that killed him.

tencole on April 28, 2013 at 12:45 PM

Why is DHS stockpiling so much ammo?

Simple: when the dollar collapses ammo becomes an item of intrinsic value. Can’t have the military with the only convertible currency around… so DHS becomes the backstop of the new currency.

Really with decent storage ammo lasts a long time, keeps its value and never loses its utility until expended. Once expended its value decreases immensely as an item… but if it saves your life then it is worth the expenditure.

At some point the manufacturers will lay in new production capability, many are already starting that. The production lines for contract work from the government agencies, including the military, are bid contracts with committed production lines and generally not part of civilian production. The problem isn’t DHS buying lots of ammo… it is everyone else buying lots of ammo and police contracts running short of purchase agreements and still needing ammo to use. The military has special call during wartime to civilian production lines, and used some of that at the start of Iraq, even having to buy on the foreign NATO markets for a bit…that isn’t a problem now, save to replenish reserve stocks.

So if it isn’t the military or government purchases screwing things up, and it is the civilian market losing its saturation point, a signal is being sent to EVERYONE if you care to read it. Gold has gone flat, like silver… even decreased a bit as people on Cyprus convert metals to solvent currency and food… but ammo? The only stuff that hasn’t totally run out is old Soviet war reserve for stuff like Mosin-Nagant, and during the last ammo run even those got short until JUNE, when the overseas shipments arrived by the pallet load.

Hopefully the government comes to its senses, cuts spending, cuts doing so much and generally has to excess stuff it doesn’t use any more. Then the government surplus on ammo will crater prices when all that unused stock comes out of warehouses… that is years off and depends on government coming to its senses. Watch the ammo market to see if people expect it to, because you buy now for what you expect to need in the near future. By that standard the future is looking pretty grim, indeed, and the Left refuses to look at the warning sign an inch from their face. And if things really go south, then ammo is currency. 22lr will be the new penny.

ajacksonian on April 28, 2013 at 12:45 PM

Another reason I have trouble figuring out the Right’s love affair with this guy.

Cleombrotus on April 28, 2013 at 12:30 PM

Hell-o? Revenge wars on the terrorists? Not really that hard…

If Obama had done absolutely nothing economy-wise and kept his foreign policy (ie; let the Israeli and military lobbyists tell him what to do and when and where) he wouldn’t be hated near as much.

But he’s a liberal, so he can’t help meddling, and he’s the unwanted brat of an African ‘mom’ and a Muslim ‘dad’, so he was doomed to lifelong stupidity. Hence our current recession.

MelonCollie on April 28, 2013 at 12:46 PM

oh I get it all right…he would make me and anyone who disagrees with him a ‘slave’

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 11:04 AM

You’re already a slave. You sold yourself into servitude and you wear your chains willingly. You’re a deluded fool and deserve to languish at the feet of your masters.

Oldnuke on April 28, 2013 at 12:51 PM

ajacksonian on April 28, 2013 at 12:45 PM

Excellent comment.

I think maybe the .22lr will be the new dollar.

davidk on April 28, 2013 at 12:59 PM

Most of the agencies that make up DHS, especially the armed ones, have existed long before the creation of DHS, so why the sudden enormous increase in demand for ammo for them?

I recently saw a picture from the Boston standoff of a LEO all “SWATted up” and looking cool, except he had his EOTech red dot sight on his tricked out M4gery on backwards. Somehow I doubt this guy fires 1,300 rounds a month or a year in practice. I’m surprised he knew which end of the boomstick the bullet thingies came out of.

jnelchef on April 28, 2013 at 1:02 PM

tom daschle concerned on April 28, 2013 at 12:42 PM

What? Sixty yards?

TQ 19 is 25 or 35 for practice.

Tell the Leo someone said “There you go again…”

IlikedAUH2O on April 28, 2013 at 1:11 PM

The entire media and most people, especially pundits on the right, are derelict.

The gov’t might have caused the FAA ‘crisis’ beyond just to “punish the people with the sequester, and the rightie congress”. They did it to get more, way more, dough for the FAA, in disguise for more propaganda and other world handouts such as this.

Travel is down 13 % in the last 2 years, down 26% since 9/11/01 and the FAA budget was already 40% higher bef. this ‘crisis’. Now the stupid congress, yes the Rs are all more stupid, gave them all they asked for and more. Lots of muzzie outreach and such is ironically paid through the ones that are supposed to do ‘security’ and direct traffic, modernize equipment…in some century down the line…

Canada’s FAA equivalent has been privatized since the 60s and they are one of the most modernized, technologically, well run, on budget and etc.

This land is driven into the ground more by the stupid Rs and the media than the tyrannical leftist destroyers. The former enable the latter and thus I hate them more.

Most are asleep at the switch.

Schadenfreude on April 28, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Schadenfreude on April 28, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Amen.

But I am really bad today since I just dealt with some D’s and R’s.

Sad.

IlikedAUH2O on April 28, 2013 at 1:24 PM

Jazz,

The weekend page hits are in the crapper so you decide to post a “red meat” article based on one poorly written and researched article on an IBD site?

Why are there NO links to ANY of the ammunition manufacturers websites where they tell how much they sell to the government (10 – 15% of their total production) and their unhappiness with retailers who are fueling the panic by allowing unlimited quantity purchases by a small number of purchasers?

The reason for the shortage is obvious to anyone who is at their local gun store when the ammo shipment arrives- it’s the guys with the five gallon pails and handtrucks who have been tipped off by their buddy that works at the shop.

You can disagree if you want, but you’d be showing about as much.expertise as “former Marine Richard Mason”.

M240H on April 28, 2013 at 10:00 AM


If you can’t find ammo, look in the mirror!

I had this conversation with a shooting buddy the other day. He is stockpiling more ammo than he could EVER possibly shoot so he “will always have it if the SHTF.”

The problem with this thinking? – he does not have a year’s worth of food stockpiled … or an independent power source if the electrical grid goes offline … or a water storage capability of any sort if the tap goes dry.

Food, power and potable water are a LOT harder to stockpile/arrange for in preparation a SHTF scenario deliverd by Mother Nature with a massive solar flare that disrupts the electrical grid and would take at least a year to repair.

There is an old military saying, “Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logisitics.”

If you don’t cover your own logistics (i.e. food, power and potable water) you are only going to have ONE place to go in the face of MOST catastrophes …

…. a FEMA camp.

PolAgnostic on April 28, 2013 at 1:31 PM

TQ 19 is 25 or 35 for practice.

What does this mean in layman’s terms?

tom daschle concerned on April 28, 2013 at 1:38 PM

There has been a lot of documentation, on this thread and elsewhere, as to why there are ammo shortages. It’s not the government buying it up, it’s panicky consumers. Period. Now that the push for gun control has gone by the wayside, at least for now, maybe you stock-pilers can hold yourselves back a tad?

Ebil gubmint isn’t responsible for all our problems. We are responsible for many of them.

JannyMae on April 28, 2013 at 1:41 PM

What does this mean in layman’s terms?

tom daschle concerned on April 28, 2013 at 1:38 PM

Nevermind I figured it out.

tom daschle concerned on April 28, 2013 at 1:42 PM

oh I get it all right…he would make me and anyone who disagrees with him a ‘slave’

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 11:04 AM

Woah, woah, woah! I didn’t see this. You prentious little scab. Bleeting “bagger!bagger!” everywhere and then you have this kind of nerve? I shouldn’t be surprised, I’ve been called fascist over and over by liberals wallowing in their proud facistic ideology. We’re debating a mina bird.

onomo on April 28, 2013 at 1:43 PM

ajacksonian on April 28, 2013 at 12:45 PM

Well said.

BallisticBob on April 28, 2013 at 1:47 PM

Funny, the idiots at National Review were telling us a couple of weeks ago that this ammo thing was BS and there was nothing to worry about.

echosyst on April 28, 2013 at 1:54 PM

If you can’t find ammo, look in the mirror!

I had this conversation with a shooting buddy the other day. He is stockpiling more ammo than he could EVER possibly shoot so he “will always have it if the SHTF.”

The problem with this thinking? – he does not have a year’s worth of food stockpiled … or an independent power source if the electrical grid goes offline … or a water storage capability of any sort if the tap goes dry.

Food, power and potable water are a LOT harder to stockpile/arrange for in preparation a SHTF scenario deliverd by Mother Nature with a massive solar flare that disrupts the electrical grid and would take at least a year to repair.

There is an old military saying, “Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logisitics.”

If you don’t cover your own logistics (i.e. food, power and potable water) you are only going to have ONE place to go in the face of MOST catastrophes …

…. a FEMA camp.

PolAgnostic on April 28, 2013 at 1:31 PM

This.

I understand where these guys are coming from; but I fear they’re not really thinking it through.

Let’s pretend for a moment the SHTF, and armed troops are moving through flyover country, rounding people up. You may have thousands of rounds of ammo, and the same rifle they’re carrying. But they have one thing you lack. The ability to siege to your position and starve you out, or just call in a drone strike when they get bored with talking to you through a bullhorn.

The ones who survive an “It Can’t Happen Here” scenario are the ones who can keep moving and/or disappear into the middle of nowhere. A vanload of bullets just gives you too much dead weight to carry.

CurtZHP on April 28, 2013 at 1:58 PM

Uh…”the ability to LAY siege…”

CurtZHP on April 28, 2013 at 1:59 PM

AoSHQ has a link to a WSJ article that was a link to this
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/total-nics-background-checks-1998_2013_monthly_yearly_totals-033113.pdf
which data put the guns n ammo shortage in perspective.

Kenosha Kid on April 28, 2013 at 1:59 PM

I was able to buy 22lr, box of 525, at the local gun store for this first time this year. They also had a bunch of cans of Lake City 5.56 in stripper clips which I can’t remember seeing since forever. And I see 45 and 9mm in stock at Wally World more often. Anecdotally speaking, I think the panic buying is starting to ease up. Until congress brings up gun legislation again, which they’re promising to do.

Fenris on April 28, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Funny, the idiots at National Review were telling us a couple of weeks ago that this ammo thing was BS and there was nothing to worry about.

echosyst on April 28, 2013 at 1:54 PM

Easy, easy. That was one person’s opinion in a published piece from another source, and they re-published it. I didn’t see it as a group endorsement.

Jaibones on April 28, 2013 at 2:04 PM

mongoose on April 28, 2013 at 9:59 AM

M240H on April 28, 2013 at 10:00 AM

How dare you two come butt in here with logic and common sense and first-hand knowledge and stuff?!? Can’t you see we’re having a paranoia party?

And how dare you question the expertise on Federal law enforcement training operations of a guy who spent four-and-a-half years in the Marine Corps?

Get with the program, dummies. ZOG, the UN black helicopters, Bushitler’s thermite in the World Trade Centers, the “false-flag” operation in Boston… it’s all real! They’re going to round you up and put you in the FEMA death camps. Soon. Like, any day now. Really! I’m serious, you people!

Hayabusa on April 28, 2013 at 2:08 PM

because President Obama is preparing for the inevitable bagger uprising…what else?

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 10:08 AM

Thanks so much for confirming that your screen name is as Fake as you are.

A+++++

Del Dolemonte on April 28, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Politricks on April 28, 2013 at 10:20 AM

So based on anecdotal evidence, you are profiling an entire group of people based solely on the actions of a few individuals. And this after haughtily telling us that we are the “bigots” for suggesting that people of a certain religion are more inclined to terrorism than other groups.

Thanks so much for clearing that up!

F+

Del Dolemonte on April 28, 2013 at 2:26 PM

Hey Dbear. Tell me, how did you get so stupid?

wolly4321 on April 28, 2013 at 11:57 AM

He was raised by his even stupider Uncle, CBear.

And he has proudly told us here in the recent past that he is passing along his 2 functioning brain cells to his niece and nephew, EBear and FBear.

They will be voting Democrat for the next 100 years.

Del Dolemonte on April 28, 2013 at 2:32 PM

luckygunner.com pricing Fed. AE 115 gr. 9×19 at $0.81 / rnd., is appx. 4x cost from 6 months back.
Price gouging or free market capitalism?

Kenosha Kid on April 28, 2013 at 2:49 PM

Can’t you see we’re having a paranoia party?

Hayabusa on April 28, 2013 at 2:08 PM

Just ’cause I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get me.

Cleombrotus on April 28, 2013 at 3:01 PM

To defer the procurement of this absurd amount of munitions and hardware as a right wing conspiracy is completely ignorant and patronizing. I could care less what these people think as the facts remain. I’d be questioning this of any administration. Keep it up, we need to know why this amount of ammunition, why hollow-points and why the need for other military hardware since Obama says our war with terror is over. The fact is if we’re not given an explanation so we the people continue to arm up.

Tangerinesong on April 28, 2013 at 4:01 PM

Nyak agreed with the math, but insisted that DHS goes through roughly that amount every year, almost exclusively for training.

Its government corruption, waste and mismanagement, Plus its to intentionally dry up the supply of ammo.

I am a ” government employee ” who carries a gun. We are never -ever- issued expensive hollow point ammo for practice. It’s a waste of money.

If their employees are shooting this much, they are shooting too much and it’s a waste of taxpayer dollars. I carry a gun every day at work, and even I dont have this much ammunition to expend yearly.

TX-96 on April 28, 2013 at 4:17 PM

bagger revolution!!!!!

nonpartisan on April 28, 2013 at 10:37 AM

… versus Bag-less devolution!

I know which I’m putting my money on and it won’t be the side with fanboys whose Obama poster-covered bedroom walls resemble Plato’s Retreat circa 1977.

Resist We Much on April 28, 2013 at 4:42 PM

Just ’cause I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get me.

Cleombrotus on April 28, 2013 at 3:01 PM

Yes, we have the foil hat crowd and nuts with us.

I have to say that some people I know could not gainsay the following however, and their ability and credentials are nothing to sneeze at.

“Any government which, in contradiction of settled law, grant selective exemptions and general amnesty for political or logistical reasons can also easily convict and punish with a similar incubus in an arbitrary manner.”

IlikedAUH2O on April 28, 2013 at 4:43 PM

Ok, “grants”. Lindsay is a lousy proof reader.

IlikedAUH2O on April 28, 2013 at 4:44 PM

Update: Police say that four to five people were stabbed at church in NM and that two of the victims are in critical condition. (via @krqe)

guns allow one to detach oneself from the consequence as I just pull a trigger.

if i have to stab you, its much harder both physically and mentally. it’ll deter alot of these nuts as guns make them feel powerful.

nonpartisan on April 8, 2013 at 5:27 PM

Resist We Much on April 28, 2013 at 4:49 PM

PolAgnostic on April 28, 2013 at 1:31 PM

Money. ROI.

Capitalist Hog on April 28, 2013 at 4:57 PM

The problem with this thinking? – he does not have a year’s worth of food stockpiled … or an independent power source if the electrical grid goes offline … or a water storage capability of any sort if the tap goes dry.

Food, power and potable water are a LOT harder to stockpile/arrange for in preparation a SHTF scenario deliverd by Mother Nature with a massive solar flare that disrupts the electrical grid and would take at least a year to repair.

PolAgnostic on April 28, 2013 at 1:31 PM

And those who stockpile food, power, and water will supply those who stockpile a year’s worth of ammo. You don’t think this through to its logical conclusion, do you?

James on April 28, 2013 at 5:13 PM

Hollow point ammo is illegal to use by the army and more expensive to manufacture. The government is going to tell anyone anything as long as it’s an answer. We have been getting a lot of those lately.

mixplix on April 28, 2013 at 5:19 PM

Basically the DHS is acting as an umbrella organization for Law Enforcement Agencies all over the country. Everything from the NYPD to the Hazzard County Sheriff’s department are ordering their ammo through DHS because of the deal worked out by DHS to procure said ammo from the manufacturers.

Defenestratus on April 28, 2013 at 9:51 AM

I’d be interested to know who told you that… because it’s not true. We have four separate law enforcement agencies that have jurisdiction throughout my county and every single one is responsible for procuring their own ammunition.

Wendya on April 28, 2013 at 5:38 PM

California lawmakers weigh first statewide ban on lead ammo

There’s more than one way to skin a cat, I guess.

Oh well, this would free up CA’s supply for the rest of us until the rest of us live in states that ban lead ammo.

Akzed on April 28, 2013 at 6:06 PM

I don’t see anyone posting the fact clearly enough that it’s all about stacking the deck. Hollow Points are for killing. Full Metal is for perforating.

Midas on April 28, 2013 at 11:24 AM Discusses the shortage accurately; there is only cheap dirty SD ammo on the retail shelf and plenty of target. DHS obviously isn’t interested in target shooting; they want stopping power – in your face stopping power.

The concealed choice is 9×19 and it just isn’t available in HP or clean target. Where’s MadCon? This post is what he sets the record straight on the best.

ericdijon on April 28, 2013 at 6:54 PM

The concealed choice is 9×19 and it just isn’t available in HP or clean target. Where’s MadCon? This post is what he sets the record straight on the best.

ericdijon on April 28, 2013 at 6:54 PM

Making a bucktoothed moron of himself on other threads, unfortunately. When he’s good, he’s REALLY good.

MelonCollie on April 28, 2013 at 6:56 PM

And those who stockpile food, power, and water will supply those who stockpile a year’s worth of ammo. You don’t think this through to its logical conclusion, do you?

James on April 28, 2013 at 5:13 PM

You DO know that most of those people are conservative/libertarian types, right?

MelonCollie on April 28, 2013 at 6:57 PM

ericdijon on April 28, 2013 at 6:54 PM

Making a bucktoothed moron of himself on other threads, unfortunately. When he’s good, he’s REALLY good.

MelonCollie on April 28, 2013 at 6:56 PM

You made me laugh. Is he really good at making a bucktoothed moron of himself usually or just sometimes?

arnold ziffel on April 28, 2013 at 7:14 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3