Gosnell worker testifies to seeing baby make swimming motion in toilet

posted at 4:01 pm on April 20, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

The prosecution finally rested in the Kermit Gosnell trial yesterday, but not without eliciting one last piece of explosive testimony.  Former clinic worker Kareema Cross, who testified Thursday to seeing at least 10 babies breathing before Gosnell “ensured fetal demise,” testified yesterday to seeing a large baby delivered in a toilet make swimming motions in the water:

While she worked for Gosnell, Cross testified that at least twice a day, six days a week, at least two babies would “precipitate” or be birthed before Gosnell ever arrived. She said “Dr. Steve,” Steven Massof, an unlicensed medical school graduate with a ghoulish curiosity about abortions, would be there to snip the babies’ necks. She saw him do it around 50 times. When babies “precipitated” in Gosnell’s presence, he would do the dirty deed himself.

Cross sometimes worked from 8:00 am until 3:00 the next morning helping with procedures. She routinely saw babies born alive, moving, breathing, and moaning.

Once in Gosnell’s absence, Cross saw a large baby delivered into the toilet. She saw his little arms and legs moving in a swimming motion as he struggled to get out of the toilet bowl. Cross held her hands 12-16 inches apart to demonstrate to the jury how big the baby was. Adrienne Moton, who was the first worker to testify for the prosecution, snipped the baby’s neck in front of the mother while she sat bleeding into the toilet. Moton then took the body away and put it into a container.

In 2009, Cross testified that another co-worker, Linda Williams, called Cross over to see a baby that had just been born. Cross saw the baby’s chest heaving up and down in steady breathing motions. Linda reached down and lifted the baby’s hand up, but the newborn pulled it away on its own strength. Cross said she saw the baby breathing for about 20 minutes before Williams murdered the child by severing its spinal cord with scissors. Cross demonstrated again with her hands that the baby was about a foot long.

Also, Cross elaborated on her earlier testimony about the curious coincidence of having most of the babies delivered by Gosnell measure out at 24.5 weeks for the official records.  Cross testified that when the ultrasound indicated a longer gestation period for the baby, Gosnell would re-do the ultrasound himself — and get the result he needed, although he turned out to be wrong about that, too:

Cross said her “training” consisted on observing one ultrasound procedure. After that she was on her own. When Cross got a measurement that was beyond 24 weeks, she would have one of the other women who were a little better at using the relic from the 1980′s to verify her findings. Gosnell would always redo those ultrasounds, which would all suddenly measure precisely 24.5 weeks gestation, which Gosnell mistakenly thought was the legal limit in Pennsylvania. In fact, the legal limit was 23 weeks 6 days.

Cross offered more than her verbal testimony too, as it happens:

Fed up with the conditions and the appalling way women were treated at Gosnell’s clinic, in 2008 Cross began to document the clinic’s horrific conditions with her personal camera. The full-color photos were shown to a darkened courtroom on the large viewing screen.

She photographed the blood-caked procedure table in the Monet room that had rips in the vinyl where the women laid during their abortions. That same table had been seized from Gosnell’s clinic and was present in the courtroom throughout the prosecution’s case. Some of what appeared to be rust was actually described as dried blood.

Another photo taken by Cross showed two shelves located above the same sink where Liz Hampton washed aborted baby remains down a drain to be ground up in the garbage disposal. Crammed and stacked onto the shelves were about 50 jars containing severed fetal feet floating in liquid. Another photo showed a harrowing close-up of Gosnell’s grisly collection.

There was a picture of an indescribably filthy stainless steel sink where used plastic speculums and currettes were supposedly washed for reuse. It was piled with dirty equipment and caked in a thick layer of grime.

Cross also took a picture of the child called Baby Boy A in the trial, a baby so large it wouldn’t fit in a shoebox.  Later, she also testified to having an abortion herself, but at another clinic — which displeased Gosnell, but apparently not as much as Cross’ next pregnancy, which she decided to keep.  Gosnell repeatedly pressured her to abort the child, offering her a discount to do so and asking her how she could work in the clinic and stay pregnant.

The defense will present its case starting next week, but the abortion industry has already tried to offer its own defense in the Philadelphia area.  Planned Parenthood Pennsylvania had Gloria Steinem speak at their annual Spring Gathering this week, but the remarks of PPP president Dayle Steinberg should get the most attention:

“The Gosnell trial has shifted the focus off the high-quality services we provide,” said Dayle Steinberg, the organization’s president and chief executive. “These are criminal, horrendous . . . acts and should be appropriately punished.”

Steinberg said that when Gosnell was in practice, women would sometimes come to Planned Parenthood for services after first visiting Gosnell’s West Philadelphia clinic, and would complain to staff about the conditions there.

“We would always encourage them to report it to the Department of Health,” Steinberg said as she sat with Steinem before Tuesday’s events.

So PPP knew about the conditions at Gosnell’s clinic — and didn’t say anything to the Department of Health themselves?  They may not have been required to do so, but clearly they knew that Gosnell’s clinic represented a danger to the health of women in the community, which they claim to cherish. Why did PPP keep silent?

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Comment pages: 1 2

Marcus on April 20, 2013 at 5:38 PM

You are a moron. We get it. You gonna keep proving it over and over, aren’t you?

KCB on April 20, 2013 at 5:41 PM

MARCUS- why is it you pro aborts are just so stupid?

I posted this 15 minutes ago above:

It took about 30 seconds but here’s your link:

http:/article/2013/04/18/us-usa-philadelphia-clinic-idUSBRE93H1D720130418//www.reuters.com

I even posted the story itself.

CW on April 20, 2013 at 5:41 PM

Heh

Schadenfreude on April 20, 2013 at 5:50 PM

i just wanted to say, can people please stop calling babies “it?” even pro-lifers do that. say “he” “she” “they” “he/she.” a person is not an “it.”

I agree with the previous post about “Lifenews” being your sole source

lifenews is amazing. there are so many stories there that other media outlets refuse to cover because they’re too disturbing and horriffic- too inconvenient for the pro-abortion agenda. i have learned so much from that one site.

and coloring/peppering already horrific acts with “swimming” and “struggling”‘instead of “moving”. Why stop at it not screaming “Get me out of here!!” ?

Marcus on April 20, 2013 at 5:01 PM

oh yeah i’m sure that when a baby is carelessly dropped into a dirty, disgusting toilet, they are completely calm and happy to be there and play around in the water. they would have no reason at all to want to get out. /

Sachiko on April 20, 2013 at 5:53 PM

Why did PPP keep silent?

Because they use poor women of color just as much as Gosnell does. Each PPP client represents public dollars coming into their evil organization for lobbying, executive salaries, and political activities. They may have not segregated the poor women from those who were paying but they were also victimizing these women.

The most important thing is that it proves PP doesn’t care about anything but the money.

Happy Nomad on April 20, 2013 at 5:53 PM

and coloring/peppering already horrific acts with “swimming” and “struggling”‘instead of “moving”. Why stop at it not screaming “Get me out of here!!” ?

Marcus on April 20, 2013 at 5:01 PM

That is a child not an it. You are intentionally being offensive. Probably because your mommy bottle fed you or something.

And it is important to be specific with the horrific acts because the public and judge/jury needs to fully understand that this was far more than Gosnell and his staff forgetting to wash their hands after using the restroom. The story, now that it is getting some attention, is even making the pro-murder crowd squemish about their convictions. That is one small bit of good in a very evil story.

Happy Nomad on April 20, 2013 at 5:58 PM

I struggle against myself and my own failings to see Jesus in all people. It’s gotten a LOT more difficult.

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 5:41 PM

Why do you believe Jesus is in all people? And if he is, why is it a struggle to see him?

I ask these questions only for you, grasshopper.

Axe on April 20, 2013 at 5:59 PM

There is no hell deep enough or hot enough for Gosnell, his employees and the trolls that come here to defend him. Make no mistake, that’s exactly what they are doing.

dogsoldier on April 20, 2013 at 6:00 PM

Axe on April 20, 2013 at 5:59 PM

That’s what I wanted to ask her. Beat me by a minute.
Where does this idea come from? I don’t see it in the Bible.

Cleombrotus on April 20, 2013 at 6:01 PM

Thanks. That is a crying shame…

OmahaConservative on April 20, 2013 at 5:35 PM

Cross did report him ( and took pictures of the facility that have been used in his trial) after she became disturbed by Gosnell’s “business” practices. It sounds like her testimony is pretty key to the prosecution…so at least there’s that.

lynncgb on April 20, 2013 at 6:01 PM

Anybody who thinks this can’t happen in a hospital setting where abortion is “safe” and “legal” (even if not rare) is kidding himself.

Canada has had no law regarding abortion for years.

There was a notorious case that came to light as a result of a lawsuit that occurred at the largest hospital in British Columbia, Vancouver General.

Did Someone Try to Murder Ximena?

This led to a large settlement by Canadian standards (over 8 million dollars) in 1999.

From 1999…

NUMBERS OF LIVE BABIES AFTER FAILED ABORTIONS UP

Another article from February 2013:

Birth of a legal quandry [sic]: Live-birth abortions a perilous grey zone in Canada’s criminal code

Of course Canada is supposedly more civilized because they don’t snip them – they just leave them to die.

Drained Brain on April 20, 2013 at 6:03 PM

That’s what I wanted to ask her. Beat me by a minute.
Where does this idea come from? I don’t see it in the Bible.

Cleombrotus on April 20, 2013 at 6:01 PM

There might be a beautiful idea stuck in there. It might be poetic language for “something worth saving, something worth loving” — and there is also an idea sitting there — to continue the method — about the Jesus within Kraken being the part of Kraken that can see the Jesus in the other guy . . . in which case, poking Kraken with a stick and making Kraken hash that out a little within Kraken’s own heart should help Kraken out. :)

. . . which is what I was trying to do.

Could be Kraken is someone fiercely unwilling to leave anyone behind, which the Jesus in me can see as the Jesus in Kraken. :)

Always best never to type this much on these threads and stay cryptic though. Otherwise the Jesus in us has to put up with the Pharisees in them, and it gets tiring. :)

Who’s up for some parables?

j/k

Axe on April 20, 2013 at 6:08 PM

“The Gosnell trial has shifted the focus off the high-quality services we provide,” said Dayle Steinberg, the organization’s president and chief executive. “These are criminal, horrendous . . . acts and should be appropriately punished.”

“Yes, we strive to provide a higher quality of execution and mutilation. Gosnell, has put our death mills in a bad light. We hope Americans will understand that.”

Dongemaharu on April 20, 2013 at 6:08 PM

RovesChins on April 20, 2013 at 5:16 PM

No one is defending this guy. What we are pointing out is how quick the fringe anti woman conservative movement is so quick to use this tragedy to further their anti woman ideology. Unless you are willing to introduce and pass federal laws that will lock up every woman and doctor who aborts a child, all your b!tching wont do nada.

Why not encourage women to use birth control pills to prevent unwanted pregnancies if you are so against abortion? Then again your movement only gives a d@rm about kids in the womb. Once they are out, to hell with them evidenced by how you all are so eager to cut aid to low income families with kids.

HotAirLib on April 20, 2013 at 5:29 PM

War on women? I think Gosnell was a general in that charge, but keep f*cking that chicken, libturd. There are indeed birth control methods that work wonders to prevent unwanted pregnancy, including closing your legs, but as a conservative, I believe in personal responsibility. Pay for your own birth control, Sandra. I have enough to pay without supporting your career on your back.

RovesChins on April 20, 2013 at 6:08 PM

Cross did report him ( and took pictures of the facility that have been used in his trial) after she became disturbed by Gosnell’s “business” practices. It sounds like her testimony is pretty key to the prosecution…so at least there’s that.

lynncgb on April 20, 2013 at 6:01 PM

Yes I suppose there is that, but after the first live-born baby was snipped in the skull any decent person would have reported him. Of course no decent person would be working there to begin with…

OmahaConservative on April 20, 2013 at 6:09 PM

There might be a beautiful idea stuck in there. It might be poetic language for “something worth saving, something worth loving” —

Axe on April 20, 2013 at 6:08 PM

That I can understand. I guess it’s just the language used that I find disturbing.

Cleombrotus on April 20, 2013 at 6:11 PM

I struggle against myself and my own failings to see Jesus in all people. It’s gotten a LOT more difficult.

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 5:41 PM

The Holy Spirit only indwells people who are saved through Jesus’ work on the cross. Those God does not choose to save are given over to their sin, and unless they come to repentance will die in their sin and be eternally separated from God.

This doesn’t mean everyone is as evil as they can be (although based on this testimony it appears that Gosnell nearly was), but it does mean that those who are not saved are under the condemnation of sin and cannot be considered righteous in God’s eyes.

Even someone as thoroughly wicked as Kermit Gosnell needs prayers, because without the grace of God I would be considered equally guilty.

TheMightyMonarch on April 20, 2013 at 6:13 PM

The liberal MSM has gone out of their way to avoid publicizing any of the testimony in this trail.

Yet, when we’re talking about expanding expensive entitlement programs “for the unfortunate amongst us”, the usual phrase spouted is WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

Odd, none of the MSM have brought that up during this trial.

GarandFan on April 20, 2013 at 6:16 PM

Marcus on April 20, 2013 at 5:38 PM

Aren’t you the one who claims to be a doctor in Texas? Interesting.

katy the mean old lady on April 20, 2013 at 6:20 PM

Why do you believe Jesus is in all people?

So I don’t pass judgement on them out of hand.

And if he is, why is it a struggle to see him?

Normally, it isn’t. Or I should say, I thought I had gotten better at it. But the Gosnells and some of the posters on this site make it very difficult. How does one see Jesus in a murderer, or those who defend him?

I ask these questions only for you, grasshopper.

Axe on April 20, 2013 at 5:59 PM

And I thank you for asking. The struggle continues…

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 6:25 PM

Slow news day…just post another gosnell post! That’s lazy blogging ed
nonpartisan on April 20, 2013 at 4:30 PM

Who the hell are you to tell anyone what they should talk about?

Jeff Weimer on April 20, 2013 at 6:26 PM

So we no longer need to worry whether death row inmates will suffer from injections; just behead them!! It’s a method sanctioned by liberals of terminating a person.

KenInIL on April 20, 2013 at 6:27 PM

HotAirLib on April 20, 2013 at 5:29 PM

*yawn*

More of the usual sub-moronic, soulless blather. Seriously, is that all you’ve got? Is that the sum total of your best efforts, your best philosophies, your best world view?

Good heavens, how shallow and meaningless is your worthless existence.

Midas on April 20, 2013 at 6:27 PM

I struggle against myself and my own failings to see Jesus in all people. It’s gotten a LOT more difficult.

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 5:41 PM

I don’t think that is a failing on your part. There are those who are in the fold (part of the Church — all believers) and those who are not. Those who are not are those whom the Lord desires to see saved, but you are looking in vain to see Jesus in them (or believers at times, we are all sinful humans who make mistakes that unfortunately is sometimes exhibited in public). Only God can see into hearts and knows who are His, we can see fruits of faith, but cannot see faith in anyone.

If you are looking for Jesus in Gosnell, you are searching in vain. This does not mean he cannot come to faith after hearing the Word, but the outward manifestation of his life to this time is evidence that there is no faith dwelling within him. We cannot judge hearts, but we can judge actions — the actions of this man demonstrate no faith. Those who misuse the phrase, “judge not, lest you be judged” are misusing a command from Christ that we should not judge a person’s motives or words when they claim to be acting in faith. When we see someone like Gosnell or the Boston Bombers, we see their actions and are also told elsewhere to avoid evil and evil men. That requires judgment.

AZfederalist on April 20, 2013 at 6:30 PM

But the Gosnells and some of the posters on this site make it very difficult.

lol — Yup.

How does one see Jesus in a murderer, or those who defend him?

By the method, Jesus wouldn’t be in the murderer part.

The struggle continues…

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 6:25 PM

Yup. :)

Thanks for responding and being patient.

Axe on April 20, 2013 at 6:31 PM

but after the first live-born baby was snipped in the skull any decent person would have reported him. Of course no decent person would be working there to begin with…

OmahaConservative on April 20, 2013 at 6:09 PM

I agree. She’s no saint, but in light of the fact that so many others ( including public officials) looked the other way and ignored what was going on there, there came a point when she left and tried to do the right thing. Waaaay too many people knew exactly what was going on and refused to intervene. I’ll cut her a wee bit of slack compared to the rest.

lynncgb on April 20, 2013 at 6:35 PM

The struggle continues…

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 6:25 PM

Yes, it does. It does seem to be getting easier, though, to see the other side in us these days, isn’t it?

I can’t help but think, when I consider developments like these, that we’re living in our culture’s death throes.

Cleombrotus on April 20, 2013 at 6:37 PM

I am. 28 years. AH, but I “murder babies” with birth control pills, Provera, NuvaRIng, Implanon, Mirena, and Plan B. But I’ve let 8 or 9,000 plus live, even doing water births – have yet to have one born “swimming”, though.

Marcus on April 20, 2013 at 6:38 PM

I’ve tried to type out a comment to this and keep deleting it. Nothing I can say comes close to how horrified and quite frankly devastated I am by what this man has done. The only thing that gives me comfort is that when those babies died Jesus was there to take them home and they are forever in His care now.

KateNE on April 20, 2013 at 6:40 PM

Marcus on April 20, 2013 at 5:01 PM

You sir are vile and stupid. Quite the lethal mixture

nyclakerfan on April 20, 2013 at 6:41 PM

Not that I don’t mind the stories on this heinous crime Ed, but can you also hyperlink sources from an actual/local news source(s)? LifeNews has a habit of not linking to where they get their info from, and a lot of people I know would just instantly ignore this news just from the obvious slant the site has.

mythicknight on April 20, 2013 at 4:22 PM

While no doubt those people you know are at the same time blindly accepting other just as slanted (just the other way) news sources that confirm their beliefs, no doubt.

The reason is simple: the majority of the national news media is Democrat, and thus pro-abortion. In their world, going to get an abortion is no more gruesome or painful than going to the doctor’s office to have a wart removed.

This case totally shatters that illusion, and for them to report it could just possibly make a much wider portion of America question abortion’s value. They and their Party cannot have that, because abortion is their Official Party Religion. Nothing else is more important, not even gun control.

And so, this past week, the New York Times, America’s Paper of Record, sent one of their “reporters” to cover the Gosnell trial. He bailed out almost immediately because he didn’t want to report what he observed. His employer did not replace him because they didn’t either.

FWIW, here is a story from a “real news source”, namely C-BS “News”, from yesterday. It does include some of the gruesome details, but of course leaves this one out.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57580480-504083/kermit-gosnell-murder-trial-update-phila-abortion-clinic-worker-says-she-saw-more-than-14-babies-born-alive/

And another:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41154527/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/house-horrors-alleged-abortion-clinic/#.UXMcd0rCaSq

And here is the Official City of Philadelphia Grand Jury Report. Many of the gruesome details are contained within its 281 pages.

http://www.phila.gov/districtattorney/pdfs/grandjurywomensmedical.pdf

Del Dolemonte on April 20, 2013 at 6:49 PM

Surely there’s no frakking way this monster will be acquitted.

tru2tx on April 20, 2013 at 6:56 PM

well… at least da lil tike got to pretend he/she had a day at the beach…

jeebus….planed parenthood is get’n pretty close to the old Nazi practice of just grab ‘n babies by the ankle an smack ‘n them against brick walls.

roflmmfao

donabernathy on April 20, 2013 at 6:57 PM

Is it just me that this sickens so much I can’t read Cap’n Ed’s posts on it?

JohnGalt23 on April 20, 2013 at 4:03 PM

You are definitely not the only one. Speechless.

PatriotGal2257 on April 20, 2013 at 6:58 PM

TheMightyMonarch on April 20, 2013 at 6:13 PM

I’ve been reading “Death on a Friday Afternoon” by Richard Newhaus. Very disturbing, but very enlightening. It deals with the seven phrases uttered by Jesus during his Crucifixion. The author spends time going into the many meanings associated with the phrases, and what we can learn from them. One of the “lessons” goes along the lines of that Pharisee who thanks God he isn’t as bad as the other sinners in the Temple, like the tax collector. What we’re supposed to learn from this, I think, is that when we condemn the actions of others, when we pass judgement on them, we pass judgement on ourselves at the same time.

So I try to force myself to see Jesus in everyone I encounter. As a new over-the-road truck driver, let me tell you, that’s a difficult task. And then, with this Gosnell thing and the whole abortion tragedy (dare I say the New Holocaust?), it gets more and more difficult. I know I’m being tested, but I fear sometimes that I’m failing the test.

Sorry, I don’t mean to hijack the thread or turn it into a religious discussion. It just hurts so much to read about these innocents and to see the defense and the comments here that almost make light of it all.

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 7:02 PM

Del Dolemonte on April 20, 2013 at 6:49 PM

Del, you may want to throw this in with those links too.

I will not hesitate to admit that i would LOVE to be locked in a room with this guy to ..”explain”…to him that there are certain lines you don’t cross…not if you want to still be considered human, that is.

BlaxPac on April 20, 2013 at 7:08 PM

AZfederalist on April 20, 2013 at 6:30 PM

Thanks, AZ. We walk a fine line in judging. Maybe I just need to realize that there are those who cross a line that shouldn’t be crossed, and just pray that God enlightens them to the point where they can ask for His forgiveness.

But the anger. It burns in me. It robs me of peace.

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 7:08 PM

When I read stories like this when I was pregnant, Pookette would give me reassuring kicks and wiggles. (She also used to do backflips while Pooky read to her.) These days, I make sure to give her hugs and kisses as she babbles in my arms.

Life is precious, and should be defended.

pookysgirl on April 20, 2013 at 7:20 PM

That’s what I wanted to ask her.

Uh, him. Definitely a him.

Beat me by a minute.
Where does this idea come from? I don’t see it in the Bible.

Cleombrotus on April 20, 2013 at 6:01 PM

It’s along the lines of judge not, lest ye be judged.

Judging is difficult to avoid. I’ve spent most of my life passing judgement on people, and for the most part, found them all wanting. It’s only when I finally recognized my own sinfulness that I decided to change. How do I cast stones?

And yes, Ax, part of me DOES want everyone to be saved. It saddens me to see those around me who appear ready, willing, and more than able to take the wide path. Perhaps it because of my own time spent on that same path. It wouldn’t bother me at all if Hell is empty if that is God’s will. But that appears unlikely…

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 7:20 PM

No one is defending this guy. What we are pointing out is how quick the fringe anti woman conservative movement

HotAirLib on April 20, 2013 at 5:29 PM

It’s not our side that has killed 25 MILLION+ females. When you complain about exposure of a murderer, perhaps you’re on the wrong side of the whole good vs. evil debate.

dominigan on April 20, 2013 at 7:28 PM

coloring/peppering already horrific acts with “swimming”

Marcus on April 20, 2013 at 5:01 PM

Er… because it’s one of about three things a newborn does instinctively? Would you also claim it’s inappropriate to accuse a newborn of “sucking”? They can do that too.

alwaysfiredup on April 20, 2013 at 7:31 PM

Judging is difficult to avoid. I’ve spent most of my life passing judgement on people, and for the most part, found them all wanting. It’s only when I finally recognized my own sinfulness that I decided to change. How do I cast stones?

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 7:20 PM

Very good observation… and sums up the entire passage on judging. Those judging Christians for their judgement usually stop at the 2nd verse and ignore the verses following…

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Matthew 7:1-5

You are not qualified to judge someone of a specific failing if you yourself are failing in the same area. First mind your own failing, and understand it, before you help your fellow man with that same failing. Judging should not be left as the only outcome, but be coupled with helping the other overcome the problem.

dominigan on April 20, 2013 at 7:37 PM

Where are the women who chose to murder their babies at this particular “clinic”? NONE of them wanted to testify?

SouthernGent on April 20, 2013 at 7:55 PM

But the anger. It burns in me. It robs me of peace.

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 7:08 PM

That is a different thing entirely. Righteous anger is one thing — Christ himself burned with anger at the moneychangers in the temple. However, anger at the sin vs. the sinner is the issue. “Vengeance is mine says the Lord, I will repay”. He may exact that vengeance through the government, “… for he does not bear the sword in vain”. However, when we allow that anger to turn to hatred, then it becomes sinful — hatred is the desire to see that person in hell. No matter the sin or sinner, we are to look for ways to get the Word to the sinner, no matter how heinous, not to withhold the word because we want to see them eternally condemned. In the case of the bomber who died, or the hijackers, we know what their eternal fate is and while not rejoicing in it, we can appreciate God’s judgment on the unrepentant. When the sinner is openly unrepentant and spiteful, we may shake the dust from our sandals in judgment of their actions, but while they live, they still are in their time of grace and may later come to faith through the efforts of others.

AZfederalist on April 20, 2013 at 8:00 PM

Gosnell worker testifies to seeing baby make swimming motion in toilet

This is literally nauseating.

No one is defending this guy. What we are pointing out is how quick the fringe anti woman conservative movement is so quick to use this tragedy to further their anti woman ideology. Unless you are willing to introduce and pass federal laws that will lock up every woman and doctor who aborts a child, all your b!tching wont do nada.

Why not encourage women to use birth control pills to prevent unwanted pregnancies if you are so against abortion? Then again your movement only gives a d@rm about kids in the womb. Once they are out, to hell with them evidenced by how you all are so eager to cut aid to low income families with kids.

HotAirLib on April 20, 2013 at 5:29 PM

Birth control is more widely available to American women now than at any other time in history, and yet abortion is in full swing.

So, if birth control is covered 100% by Obamacare, will you and yours concede that any unwanted pregnancies are due solely to the negligence of the mother and that she must go through with the birth and put the baby up for adoption if she doesn’t want it?

No, you won’t. You and your kind like abortion because it pisses us off. Just admit it.

Dr. ZhivBlago on April 20, 2013 at 8:01 PM

So I try to force myself to see Jesus in everyone I encounter. As a new over-the-road truck driver, let me tell you, that’s a difficult task. And then, with this Gosnell thing and the whole abortion tragedy (dare I say the New Holocaust?), it gets more and more difficult. I know I’m being tested, but I fear sometimes that I’m failing the test.

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 7:02 PM

I can see it. These evil worms bring out nothing but contempt.

We are supposed to use the Golden Rule. Ananais was told to go help Paul, the one who was murdering his friends. It had to be hard, but he did it. And Paul became the defender.

There is a potential for Jesus in everyone. Jesus offered everyone more than they deserved. If you can see the Jesus in others, it is the potential for the good that comes if the hardened heart can soften. It is easier to apply the Golden Rule, if you fix on seeing Christ that could be.

However, until we stop these creeps from cutting kids heads off, don’t fell guilty.

entagor on April 20, 2013 at 8:02 PM

No one is defending this guy. What we are pointing out is how quick the fringe anti woman conservative movement is so quick to use this tragedy to further their anti woman ideology.

HotAirLib on April 20, 2013 at 5:29 PM

Cinemascope, in Technicolor. Haven’t seen such false Projection in decades.

Just a couple of weeks ago, the Democrat News Media had to come out and admit that they hadn’t been covering this story, and at the same time spun themselves silly trying to tell people why they hadn’t been doing so.

One of their standard excuses? That they were national news organizations, and that since this wasn’t a “local story” they had no interest in it. Of course, they had all sent folks to cover the “local” Newtown story.

And another one of their excuses was to simply blame the Right for doing the same thing, for not reporting on it earlier. So your claim that the Right jumped on this story rapidly is just as false as the rest of your political ideology.

F-

Del Dolemonte on April 20, 2013 at 8:34 PM

Surely there’s no frakking way this monster will be acquitted.

tru2tx on April 20, 2013 at 6:56 PM

I don’t know he could be acquitted, but there are several ghouls on this site trying hard to find ways to defend him (or else complaining about the negative impact this will have on abortion while carefully avoiding commenting on his crimes).

If one of these types is on the jury, there could very well be a hung jury. Sacrifices must be made for “women’s rights,” after all.

Doomberg on April 20, 2013 at 8:51 PM

Why not encourage women to use birth control pills to prevent unwanted pregnancies if you are so against abortion? Then again your movement only gives a d@rm about kids in the womb. Once they are out, to hell with them evidenced by how you all are so eager to cut aid to low income families with kids.

HotAirLib on April 20, 2013 at 5:29 PM

I’m sure you’re onto another thread by now but this line of argument infuriates me. Why is it if conservatives disagree with a liberal solution to a problem (almost always-government intervention) that they must hate (be afraid of, be discriminating against) the group that would benefit from the solution? Are you so thick as to not understand that there can be more than one solution to a problem? I can’t speak for everyone but I feel ALL government programs can be cut. What I am against in the welfare programs are the numerous people who take advantage and the large amount of waste. I also don’t see where it is a constitutional duty of the federal government to provide those services. That in no way means I don’t care about poor people. I support, throught my church, a crisis pregnancy center, a food panty, a homeless shelter and a soup kitchen.
Why do you hate poor people so much that you want to enslave them to the state? Why do you hate poor people so much that you want to give them handouts instead of opportunities to help themselves? Now if you want to discuss whether the federal government, the state government or local charities can do a better job at providing for the poor, that would at least be an honest discussion to have (though I think you’d still lose).

hopeful on April 20, 2013 at 9:53 PM

Judging is difficult to avoid. I’ve spent most of my life passing judgement on people, and for the most part, found them all wanting. It’s only when I finally recognized my own sinfulness that I decided to change. How do I cast stones?

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 7:20 PM

Jesus’ challenge “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” is almost universally misunderstood. Jesus wasn’t saying you had to be sinless to “cast the first stone.” In the Law of Moses, people were commanded by God to throw stones at people in certain circumstances, and they were not required to be sinless. There were special regulations about casting the first stone. In effect, what He was saying was “let him who can cast the first stone without bringing sin upon himself come forth.”

Jesus was asking who was going to cast the first stone. The person who was to cast the first stone had to be an eye-witness, Deut. 17:6-7. But there were laws regarding accusations and testimony (see Exo. 23:1-3, for example).

Since the one who cast the first stone was the accuser in a death penalty case, if it turns out the accuser was a malicious witness, they would be stoned instead – Deut. 19:15-21. Since the whole thing was clearly rigged in John 8:1-11, none of them dared to cast the first stone – they would have brought sin upon themselves and signed their own death warrant.

Christians are to judge – judge wisely and according to the truth, and to refute lies and rebuke the liars.

IcedTea on April 20, 2013 at 9:58 PM

Christians are to judge – judge wisely and according to the truth, and to refute lies and rebuke the liars.IcedTea on April 20, 2013 at 9:58 PM

Good job, all of it.

AH_C on April 20, 2013 at 11:20 PM

I’m not a Christian-I’m a Jew. I don’t believe in Jesus. I have little sympathy for the women that entered Gosnell’s clinic(Yeah. Yeah. Some were forced, I know)but what was done to the BABIES was absolute, sheer, unadulterated EVIL!
Btw Marcus: Those children were not ‘its’. You disgust me.

annoyinglittletwerp on April 20, 2013 at 11:23 PM

RovesChins on April 20, 2013 at 5:16 PM

No one is defending this guy. What we are pointing out is how quick the fringe anti woman conservative movement is so quick to use this tragedy to further their anti woman ideology. Unless you are willing to introduce and pass federal laws that will lock up every woman and doctor who aborts a child, all your b!tching wont do nada.

Why not encourage women to use birth control pills to prevent unwanted pregnancies if you are so against abortion? Then again your movement only gives a d@rm about kids in the womb. Once they are out, to hell with them evidenced by how you all are so eager to cut aid to low income families with kids.

HotAirLib on April 20, 2013 at 5:29 PM

No, you’re not defending him. You’re just accusing everyone else of some weird vendetta instead. Calling it a “fringe anti-woman conservative movement” is just more absurdity. Abortion is not pro-woman, and being pro-life is not anti-woman.

Being for abortion is anti-human.

As for “encouraging women to use birth control pills,” that’s just another straw man.

Your philosophy is the real problem. Birth control pills and abortions are just cheap quick-fixes, not the real solution. Every time you try to fix the problem without encouraging actual marriages and families, you just make it worse.

The way to stop being poor in America? Don’t sleep around. Find a husband or wife and get married. Work. Raise your family.

Welfare has done more to hurt the black family than any other factor, because you get more money if you’re not together. The ruins of the welfare state are on your head. High crime rate, children dying before they finish high school, high unemployment, children growing up without fathers, high abortion rate, high illegitimacy rate, and poverty. Every one of them has been made worse by the welfare state.

It’s not the conservatives who are causing these problems. They’re caused by you and your kind.

There Goes the Neighborhood on April 21, 2013 at 12:10 AM

Marcus on April 20, 2013 at 5:38 PM

Aren’t you the one who claims to be a doctor in Texas? Interesting.

katy the mean old lady on April 20, 2013 at 6:20 PM

I suspect he’s a physician in the same sense an abortionist is a physician.

There Goes the Neighborhood on April 21, 2013 at 12:18 AM

No words, pure evil, plain and simple

superdave on April 21, 2013 at 12:22 AM

Kraken on April 20, 2013 at 7:20 PM

Thank you, Kraken.

Cleombrotus on April 21, 2013 at 1:12 AM

No, you won’t. You and your kind like abortion because it pisses us off. Just admit it.

Dr. ZhivBlago on April 20, 2013 at 8:01 PM

Out of the park, grand slam sir!!

Talon on April 21, 2013 at 7:45 AM

There Goes the Neighborhood on April 21, 2013 at 12:10 AM

AMEN!

Those that thumb their noses at “so-cons” fail to see the connection of “liberal” social values and the ever growing leviathan of big government and high taxes. And as long as they don’t see it in their own backyard, the generational devastation caused by those policies is of no concern to them.

Talon on April 21, 2013 at 7:54 AM

Those that thumb their noses at “so-cons” fail to see the connection of “liberal” social values and the ever growing leviathan of big government and high taxes.

Talon on April 21, 2013 at 7:54 AM

Okay, look: Confusing the distinction between the acceptance of more liberal social values and the intentional propagation of liberal social values is a hallmark of socialist thought. The purpose of the former is to lessen the intrusiveness of a large federal entity, while the purpose of the latter is to increase dependency on the same.

Likewise, I could say that those that thumb their noses at libertarian thought fail to see the connection between the pushing of “traditional” social values and the allure of social engineering by an ever growing leviathan of big government.

mintycrys on April 21, 2013 at 9:52 AM

AND YET……..THIS President and our Ruling class in both parties let this holocaust continue.

……and we keep electing them.

God have mercy on our nation.

PappyD61 on April 21, 2013 at 11:00 AM

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