Question for Planned Parenthood official: What should happen to a baby born alive after a botched abortion?

posted at 4:21 pm on March 29, 2013 by Allahpundit

Via John McCormack at the Weekly Standard, some words of wisdom from the Kermit Gosnell school of “women’s health.” Say this much for her: As monstrous as this is, at least she’s consistent. It’s a strange mindset that would suddenly demand that a doctor rescue a baby in peril after giving him the green light to kill it in the womb 10 minutes earlier. The only situation I can think of where someone’s typically asked to switch from assailant to savior in the blink of an eye is when cops or soldiers wound an armed enemy in the course of defending themselves. In all other cases, a person who’s made the decision to kill will, if left uninterrupted, tend to finish the job. Pro-lifers have always argued that it’s silly and arbitrary to make birth (or viability) some key threshold for personhood. In her own ominous way, she’s agreeing with that. If a mother and her doctor have decided to kill, why stop at accidental birth? Why not let them finish the job? Free Gosnell!

As a practical matter, even if Florida’s law requiring rescue is enacted, how many abortionists do you suppose would actually follow it in the privacy of the “exam room” in cases of accidental birth?


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May I translate for the witness:KILL THE BABY,KILL THE BABY,KILL THE BABY!!!

sirpatrick on March 30, 2013 at 5:19 PM

davidk on March 30, 2013 at 5:00 PM

Don’t fear, it is not your decision.

JetBoy on March 30, 2013 at 4:54 PM

If thuja truly believes that animal abuse is more horrific than abortion, I am truly saddened. But it hardly makes culpable. Yes, I realize you didn’t say it but I don’t know who you were “quoting”.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 5:35 PM

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 5:35 PM

I don’t want anyone to live an eternity without the Father.

Even baby killers.

davidk on March 30, 2013 at 5:41 PM

I thought the pro-abortion litmus test, or standard, was only if the baby is still in the womb?

Or maybe I’m getting that confused with legalities (most states don’t permit a baby to be out of the womb for these procedures)?

TigerPaw on March 30, 2013 at 3:58 AM

Ah, there’s the crux — “most states”. The question is when a state views a child as having been “born” — and hence a separate individual for legal purposes with an undeniable right to life which cannot be terminated…

For some states (Virginia, for example), personhood begins when the umbilical cord is cut. Until then, the “tissue mass” is part of the woman’s body. HotAir addressed this one under the title “Mother kills newborn, can’t be charged with crime”

For other states, personhood begins when the “tissue mass” takes its first breath.

For others, personhood occurs when the head of the “tissue mass” crowns or the feet of the “tissue mass” protrude from the uterus.

For others, personhood occurs when the head has completely exits the uterus, or the body up to the naval, That’s the federal definition, and the one Dr. Gosnell tried to use to be legally abort the “tissue masses” — until he discovered that sometimes the “tissue mass” popped out too fast for the scissors.

For scientists — and perhaps for North Dakota, personhood begins at the moment of conception — when the sperm and the egg have fused. Here is Dr. Jerome Lejeune:

After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. It is no longer a matter of taste or opinion…it is plain experimental evidence. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.

To understand where the science is, you need to read this:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_when.htm

It covers all the possible scenarios for the beginning of personhood. Note which of the scenarios have scientists weighing in, and which have politics weighing in. Note that even “Belief 3″ — the one used by pro-abortion groups to justify their acts — the lone scientific citation from Carl Sagan can be used to justify “Belief 1″ — the one used by pro-life groups.
Dr. Jerome Lejeune, “Father of Modern Genetics”

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 5:48 PM

davidk on March 30, 2013 at 5:41 PM

I don’t live without Him now nor will I in eternity. Sorry that I try to think the best of people and don’t base my opinion of anyone on a single statement but it is who I am.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 5:52 PM

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 5:16 PM

Hi there Mr. Pro Amnesty and criminal supporter.

“Or, perhaps you just don’t give a rat’s patootie”

As it applies to your opinion no.
Thx for your opinion though and Happy Easter!

bazil9 on March 30, 2013 at 5:54 PM

If thuja truly believes that animal abuse is more horrific than abortion, I am truly saddened. But it hardly makes culpable. Yes, I realize you didn’t say it but I don’t know who you were “quoting”.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 5:35 PM

a) He does.

b) From a Catholic standpoint, he is culpable. We Catholics are weighted down with the concept of the “sin of omission” — failing to confront/counter sin when it occurs. Catholic theology has the concept that sin has a life of its own — that the effects of a sin reverberate through the world, causing still more suffering and death.

That latter thought is embodied in the motto of the Princeton Pro-Life Club — Condiscipulorum Absentium GratiaFor the sake of our missing classmates:

The motto is a reminder of the many lives lost to abortion every day, some of whom would have been here at Princeton with us now, had they been allowed to live.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 5:55 PM

bazil9 on March 30, 2013 at 5:54 PM

I’m an Abraham Lincoln supporter.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 5:56 PM

Amazing to see what a “conservative” can rationalize.

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 6:08 PM

I’m an Abraham Lincoln supporter.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 5:56 PM

That puts you at odds with about a half dozen Neo-Confederate sore-loser fruitcakes on Hot Air, just FYI.

MelonCollie on March 30, 2013 at 6:10 PM

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 5:55 PM

When someone says something that seems outrageous, my immediate thought is that I have misunderstood them, which you must admit happens from time to time on blogs. As for your catechism lesson, I understand his “culpability” because he believes in abortion but I don’t understand mine. Now that I understand his views must I never interact with him again?

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:12 PM

Neo-Confederate sore-loser fruitcakes on Hot Air, just FYI.

MelonCollie on March 30, 2013 at 6:10 PM

???????

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:14 PM

I’m thinking about raising Greyhounds on my ranch. They’ll be my commodity. The ones that don’t farm out because they’re weak or the market demand is low, I’ll destroy.

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 6:17 PM

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 5:55 PM

.
When someone says something that seems outrageous, my immediate thought is that I have misunderstood them, which you must admit happens from time to time on blogs. As for your catechism lesson, I understand his “culpability” because he believes in abortion but I don’t understand mine. Now that I understand his views must I never interact with him again?

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:12 PM

.
I wouldn’t cease “interaction” on account of that, speaking for myself.

Just be clear with everyone as pertains to what you believe, and try to get along with those who are willing to try and get along with you.
thuja strikes me as someone who tries to get along, in spite of the extreme contradictory beliefs pertaining to abortion, and the value of human life.

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 6:21 PM

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 6:17 PM

Are y’all living at the new place?

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:23 PM

Neo-Confederate sore-loser fruitcakes on Hot Air, just FYI.

MelonCollie on March 30, 2013 at 6:10 PM

.
???????

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:14 PM

.
Uhhh … ‘Collie … who in the blessed HANG are you talking about?

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 6:24 PM

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 6:21 PM

I have to admit to being surprised about this interaction. That’s a sad comparison even by pro-abortion standards.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:26 PM

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 6:21 PM

.
I have to admit to being surprised about this interaction. That’s a sad comparison even by pro-abortion standards.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:26 PM

.
It caught me completely off guard. I was like you, in that I was certain thuja was just playing “devil’s advocate” yesterday, when that statement was made.

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 6:33 PM

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 6:33 PM

Yep, me to. I’m bummed about it.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:43 PM

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 6:33 PM

.
Yep, me to. I’m bummed about it.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:43 PM

.
I finally got a response this morning, to last nights question, but I didn’t see it until well past noon.

Now I’m waiting for a response to this:
.

Are you dumb to not be able to understand how those who advocate for abortion view this? Puppy abuse is cruelty. Abortion is not. This really is that simple.

thuja on March 29, 2013 at 7:26 PM

.
What about an “unwanted” puppy, or a kitten? Is it okay to snip the spine at the back of the neck of one of these?

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 2:55 PM

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 7:03 PM

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 7:03 PM

I will be interested in the answer. Around here unwanted pets get tossed out the window, get an article in the paper and have people standing in line to adopt them. Not unlike most of the children killed, had they been allowed to live.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 7:13 PM

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 6:17 PM

Are y’all living at the new place?

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:23 PM

Not yet Cindy Sue. I’m taking about nine months off of the teams travel to get this thing finished.

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 7:23 PM

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 7:23 PM

Considering how long it has been, sounds like you will have to. I’m sorry it has taken so long, your trees will be huge by the time you move in. It’s good that you have the option to take off.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 7:32 PM

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 7:23 PM

Considering how long it has been, sounds like you will have to. I’m sorry it has taken so long, your trees will be huge by the time you move in. It’s good that you have the option to take off.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 7:32 PM

Mrs Hawkdriver (not her real name) is with me in Seattle/Tacoma right now for a visit and to travel home with me Monday. We’re plotting. It’s still not even dried in. The roof and chimney were finally finished, but still no feature windows.

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 7:44 PM

I will be interested in the answer. Around here unwanted pets get tossed out the window, get an article in the paper and have people standing in line to adopt them. Not unlike most of the children killed, had they been allowed to live.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 7:13 PM

My pup and one cat were shelter rescues…the 2nd cat I got from my aunt who found she was allergic, and the third cat I found abandoned in a pizza place parking lot this past Christmas time. I’m a sucker for that stuff.

Anyway, have a happy and blessed Easter!

JB

JetBoy on March 30, 2013 at 7:44 PM

JetBoy on March 30, 2013 at 7:44 PM

You are a good man. Thanks and God bless you. Oh, how lucky we are that he has risen!

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 7:51 PM

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 7:44 PM

Love the (not her real name), you could have blown your own glass windows as long as this has taken. I guess these guys are interested in you giving them references.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 7:52 PM

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 7:44 PM

Love the (not her real name), you could have blown your own glass windows as long as this has taken. I guess these guys are interested in you giving them references.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 7:52 PM

I finished the shell of the garage in a month at home minus siding.

We’d actually told the man that if he wasn’t able to finish it by Spring, I was going to have to leave my position for a while (miss a chance to work in Hawaii) to get it done. But I’m pragmatic and not at all vindictive. If his team asked for a reference or testimonial, they’d get exactly what their performance warranted.

We just want to get it finished.

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 8:02 PM

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 8:02 PM

I imagine, this has been going for a long long time.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 8:23 PM

It doesn’t matter how often it occurs. If the parents cannot or won’t pay, taxpayers will. In most states, a woman can drop off her baby anonymously at any fire station, police station or hospital and not be prosecuted. The child becomes a ward of the state.

The bottom line is this: Once the child is born alive, the woman’s “right to choose” is TERMINATED…unless she wants to be prosecuted for murder.

Period.

Story.

End of.

Resist We Much on March 29, 2013 at 9:39 PM

Nothing much for me to say, but that I support what the woman said. I don’t see what the furor is about here, but I guess it is a good idea to get off the gay issue.

thuja on March 29, 2013 at 7:21 PM

Some of HA’s ‘best’ made excuses for this.

RWM explained it for all to comprehend.

This thread is not a strictly pro life/pro abortion topic. It is about killing born children.

Those of you who defedn thuja and Armin are them.

Those of you who make any excuses for them are for the killing of viable tots and that is criminal.

Those of you who beat around the bush are obtuse, some on purpose.

hillbillyjim and hawkdriver, a few others got it immediately and called you out. For two days you’re hidign behind your shadows.

Schadenfreude on March 30, 2013 at 8:37 PM

Like the mob that yelled out for Barrabas nearly 2,000 years ago….

Our culture cries out in shrill voices…..

“Give us the bloody unborn!!!”

“Give us homosexual marriage!!”

“Give us death panels to kill off the elderly and disabled!”

History……pulling us back into darkness over and over again!

PappyD61 on March 30, 2013 at 8:44 PM

Schadenfreude on March 30, 2013 at 8:37 PM

As long as we’re not talking about Cindy. Thujas position is as much an abomination to her as it is to most of us. She just still maintains a level of civility that many of the rest of us can’t anymore.

I know, speak for myself.

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 9:30 PM

Now that I understand his views must I never interact with him again?

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:12 PM

Your call. You utterly control with whom and on what level interaction here occurs. You asked a question, and I answered it fully — sorry if it sounded like another catechism lesson, but then you aren’t the only reader…

As for me, I would and I continue to do so. What I’ve discovered is that my adversary in one battle may be my ally in another so it’s best to stick to the high road where burning bridges are less apt to occur.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 9:32 PM

That puts you at odds with about a half dozen Neo-Confederate sore-loser fruitcakes on Hot Air, just FYI.

MelonCollie on March 30, 2013 at 6:10 PM

Ah — “War of Northern Aggression” types. Well, remember who’s President right now, and a lot of that bilge makes a tad of sense — but it’s a very small tad.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 9:34 PM

listens2glenn on March 30, 2013 at 6:21 PM

No, I think thuja’s position is where the dial is stuck all the way over to max on the libertarian dial.

It’s that position where anyone’s intrusion on your putative rights may be met by force all the way up to and including death. The intruder may be malicious, or innocent, but the response is nonetheless warranted.

As said elsewhere, libertarians are half the reason why laws exist in the first place — their view of their own personal liberty is often so expansive that it intrudes detrimentally on the rights of others — at which point the populace says “there oughta be a law” — and there is.

Why are there the Ten Commandments? Were the Ten Commandments, particularly those governing behavior between people, intended for humans who considered themselves liberals, or those who considered themselves libertarians?

Of course, the other half are liberals — who have never met someone else’s property that they did not covet for their own.

So half (and I’m being imprecise, for I don’t exactly know the divide) of our laws are designed to deal with libertarians, and the other half are as a sop to liberals.

And there are those of us in the middle, who get either the benefit or the need to change the laws.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 9:44 PM

Some of HA’s ‘best’ made excuses for this.

Schadenfreude on March 30, 2013 at 8:37 PM

Hmm.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 9:46 PM

Schadenfreude on March 30, 2013 at 8:37 PM

Geez, excuse the he!! out of those who misunderstood him. May it never happen to you.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 9:51 PM

As for me, I would and I continue to do so. What I’ve discovered is that my adversary in one battle may be my ally in another so it’s best to stick to the high road where burning bridges are less apt to occur.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 9:32 PM

That’s usually my practice but then I have never been so roundly castigated for wanting clarification of what appeared to be an absurd remark.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 9:55 PM

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 9:32 PM

Oh and the catechism remark was not meant as a cheap shot, I am not that nuanced.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 9:56 PM

The reason birth is important is that it moves the fetus from being human to being a citizen, albeit a minor citizen, with all the protections of government.

I’m more than willing to follow the logic on either side: confer citizenship at conception or at viability. Full, minor citizenship. The burden of proof for an abortion then shifts to the abortionist to demonstrate due diligence so that the fetus is before the period of viability. If that cannot be done, then the charge is murder. Think that won’t make abortionists have to think twice because it is no longer ‘flush the material down the drain’ but get it and send it to an independent lab for study. Otherwise the suspicion is murder.

Oh, yeah, those clinics need to become true and accountable medical facilities that do invasive procedures, not a place where women get hurried out he door ASAP. If you can’t bother to hold these places to medical standards for a medical procedure, then it is pure and utter quackery. That means health inspections, good records, and detailed analysis with each episode… the cost goes up but so does the safety for all concerned. If you really can’t even get behind even that minimal increase in accountability, then you are just for killing and if the patient happens to die from bad conditions, well, who’s fault is that for not pushing for better conditions?

The easier part is to confer citizenship and minor status at conception, but we don’t have a good test for that at this point in time… but the first indications of pregnancy would serve until something better comes along. Of course there is RU-486 and its brethren for that period between conception and implanting, so I do think that there would be a push on to get a better set of tests constructed before that stuff can be handed out. And do remember that there are spontaneous events with no forewarning that can cause a developing embryo to perish or not implant properly as a miscarriage which is a tragedy, not a crime, but also comes with accountability to assure it is the former and not the latter.

Either full or partial protection with burden of proof is better than NO PROTECTION AT ALL. That makes the ADULTS responsible, accountable and liable for their actions, with a true cost to it no matter what you do. Just the way it should be. Its not about life, but about accountability for life and protection of it by those who should be responsible for its generation. Yeah, sucks that sort of thing does having to be an adult and all… this care-free attitude has got to end, and for any side of the argument that means getting accountability back into the equation. I don’t care where it starts but it must start if you want to say that you defend life AND rights from any part of this.

We are lacking in a reverence for life because we are lacking in a reverence for accountability. Life without it? See what we have now? It gets worse, not better, if this goes on much longer.

ajacksonian on March 30, 2013 at 9:57 PM

ajacksonian on March 30, 2013 at 9:57 PM

Isn’t it weird that the same government that allows abortions can prosecute someone for killing an unborn child?

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 10:03 PM

That kind of facial puffyness only comes from infection or alcohol bloat.

They call it “Fluke-Faced.”

tom daschle concerned on March 30, 2013 at 10:06 PM

I will be interested in the answer. Around here unwanted pets get tossed out the window, get an article in the paper and have people standing in line to adopt them. Not unlike most of the children killed, had they been allowed to live.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 7:13 PM

All of my six cats are ex-feral-kittens. There’s a seventh who’s lived on my property for the past decade or so, who will call for food but will never approach me… Because he’s beta — doesn’t harm the other cats other than the occasional fight — I feed him.

I did have a dog — a german shepard mix pound puppy who came to me with a broken hip — but he died of cancer a few years back and I haven’t replaced him because of the cats…

I have never understood the PeTA way of dealing with dogs and cats…makes me sick.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM

Oh and the catechism remark was not meant as a cheap shot, I am not that nuanced.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 9:56 PM

Having been in Catechism as a child, I took the remark as any Catholic might — an implication that what I said was overly long, boring, and stuffy, missing only the fully loaded blackboard eraser shot at one as they nodded off from a nun who should have been a pitcher in the major leagues in terms of the ability to put it over the plate, so to speak.

You’ll notice I didn’t bridle much at the inference — for it was, indeed, a catechism lesson.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 10:15 PM

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM

I wonder why they haven’t lost more of their credibility after the news broke about how many animals they euthanized and dumped so unceremoniously? My oldest son’s girlfriend said that in order to volunteer for the organization you have to sign a form saying you are a vegan. My current two puppies are from a rescue. My last were from animal control but now everything at city shelters and the SPCA around here are pit bulls. That’s not what I was looking for.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 10:17 PM

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 10:15 PM

LOL! As long as you know. Your description reenforces what a friend tells me, no matter how stressful or boring a situation is, it will eventually become a funny story.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 10:20 PM

So half (and I’m being imprecise, for I don’t exactly know the divide) of our laws are designed to deal with libertarians, and the other half are as a sop to liberals.

And there are those of us in the middle, who get either the benefit or the need to change the laws.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 9:44 PM

You get it, unc.

From where I sit, libertarians are the extreme right…anarchists, and the liberals are the extreme left…authoritarians.

Conservatives, or more precisely, classical liberals are the middle, the real “moderate”. We’re the America that has always sought for that balance that Adams & Jefferson personify.

The progressives and their propagandist media have done a superb job of hiding this from the American mind. They’ve succeeded in defining conservatives as the extreme right.

Saltysam on March 30, 2013 at 10:35 PM

The reason birth is important is that it moves the fetus from being human to being a citizen, albeit a minor citizen, with all the protections of government.

ajacksonian on March 30, 2013 at 9:57 PM

If I had to do this, I’d do it as follows:

a) Allow the mother (and only the mother) to officially declare the unborn tissue mass as human — and, with that declaration, to require that the Government recognize said tissue mass as a citizen. In the absence of such a declaration or the alternate declaration described in (c), the tissue mass is considered human and a citizen at the moment the birth pangs begin.

b) Any benefits accruing to said citizen begin at the moment of that declaration or point in time, including the ability for the parents to declare a child deduction on their tax return.

c) Alternatively, let the mother choose to declare the unborn tissue mass as nonhuman. Such a move precludes the mother from any neonatal care other than an abortion. Furthermore, if the tissue mass is still within the mother at the moment the birth pangs begin, it is treated as in (a).

d) If both the mother and the father affirm the humanity of the tissue mass, then both are responsible for the care of the resulting human. The father cannot affirm humanity unless the mother also chooses to do so.

e) If only the mother affirms the humanity of the tissue mass, and the father does not, then only the mother is responsible for the care of the resulting human, and the father is released of all obligation.

f) If nobody affirms anything, and the tissue mass is born, then both father and mother bear responsibility.

I believe that the above solution meets every requirement a liberal might levy, meets every requirement a libertarian might levy, and maximizes the responsibility for the child over those who have the right to designate him or her as human.

Now, the liberals may spice the sauce by adding more Government benefits as they see fit for the resulting child.

I think this particular set of laws would also highlight the problems on the liberal side of the abortion debate by shining fully the spotlight on the fact that the child’s humanity is being determined by others — and is not an inherent right of natural law. That’s probably why liberals would never ever want to see laws like these passed.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 10:38 PM

ajacksonian on March 30, 2013 at 9:57 PM

*Applause*

Hear hear!

Well said!

Saltysam on March 30, 2013 at 10:42 PM

That kind of facial puffyness only comes from infection or alcohol bloat.

They call it “Fluke-Faced.”

tom daschle concerned on March 30, 2013 at 10:06 PM

-
It could just be the demon inside her trying to bust out.

I was amazed that her final answer was that it might be too far to the hospital to rush the baby there… Follow-up “Would that logic apply to any baby? And if so up to what age?”

RalphyBoy on March 30, 2013 at 10:43 PM

I think this particular set of laws would also highlight the problems on the liberal side of the abortion debate by shining fully the spotlight on the fact that the child’s humanity is being determined by others — and is not an inherent right of natural law. That’s probably why liberals would never ever want to see laws like these passed.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 10:38 PM

Yeah, but if such a proposal was actually at the center of the national debate, it would be worth every minute of watching them writhe in agony as they bent themselves into logical pretzels.

Were it to drag through two sessions of Congress, we would see many weary warriors on the Left. That would be a win, and could very well provide for the beginning of the end of a long dark nightmare.

Saltysam on March 30, 2013 at 11:03 PM

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 10:38 PM

I don’t know, if the declaration could include the right to vote and a promise no id is needed, you might have yourself a winner.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 11:04 PM

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 11:04 PM

…throw in if the “gay” gene is detected, immediate citizenship shall be granted for good measure.

Saltysam on March 30, 2013 at 11:10 PM

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 10:38 PM

I see what you are trying to do, but I disagree whole-heartedly. Your law gives the mother and father (humans) the right to declare what is/is not a living human being. There are many bad things that will follow if that becomes a norm.

First, liberals that I have talked extensively with (which would be most people I know, unfortunately) LOVE the idea that rights come from the government or other human institutions. They don’t say so openly, but their actions speak much louder than words. This is how things like marriage, healthcare, and education become rights.

Furthermore, your cut-off date for the parents to be able to decide will not stay where you’ve placed it in the law. Remember that when RvW was still fresh, abortion proponents spoke of it as early and rare. We are now discussion killing children post-birth. You think the same won’t happen with your proposed law over time?

What draws problems for liberals is when you say the truth: We are human from the moment of conception. Thus a fetus, being human, inherently has the same inalienable rights and any other human, for we are all created equal by God! THEREFORE the killing of a fetus is the same as killing an adult human being.

Once the truth is established, then we can talk about “saving the mother” and “cases of rape.” You’ll find that both suddenly fail a simple test of logic. If you cannot kill a child born of rape 3 months after birth, then you cannot do so before birth as both are equally human. If you allow it before birth, then let’s just do away with murder as a crime.

Pattosensei on March 30, 2013 at 11:13 PM

Now that I understand his views must I never interact with him again?

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:12 PM

Dialogue is usually a good idea, and I find you likeable. But make the right decision for yourself.

thuja on March 30, 2013 at 11:29 PM

Pattosensei on March 30, 2013 at 11:13 PM

The liberals are very good at enacting laws to tweak things to their advantage. But suppose we do this too — only better?

Up the advantages of declaring your tissue mass to be human, and you decrease the rates of abortion.

For the middle class, the chance to claim that important tax exemption early is a winner. For the poor, the chance to get on the public dole earlier is a winner.

What we would be doing is using big government to our advantage, not to the advantage of the liberals. We would be creating a civil right for a fraction of the population which currently does not have those rights today.

It’s a stealth form of what North Dakota is doing to undermine Roe v. Wade by declaring that personhood occurs at conception. I’d love to have that be the nation-wide law, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Now, the liberals are certainly welcome to bring forward a bill legitimizing postnatal abortion, but what chance does that have in passing?

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 11:41 PM

I’m thinking about raising Greyhounds on my ranch. They’ll be my commodity. The ones that don’t farm out because they’re weak or the market demand is low, I’ll destroy.

hawkdriver on March 30, 2013 at 6:17 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhound_adoption

Most focus on ex-racers. Some look for the dogs that don’t even make the cut, but most of them are destroy surreptitiously.

I understand your point, tho’.

davidk on March 30, 2013 at 11:46 PM

My last were from animal control but now everything at city shelters and the SPCA around here are pit bulls. That’s not what I was looking for.

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 10:17 PM

My daughter volunteers at the Santa Monica pound — as a dog walker for the pit bulls. Most dogs move right on through, but not the pits — they have that reputation, deserved or not… Which is why your pound has so many pit bulls.

She says that they love to be handled, and the bad ones (there are bad ones) are kept in the quarantine area and will live out their lives there, for SM’s pound is a no-kill facility. She’s not allowed near the quarantine facility, so the only ones she deals with are the ones designated as safe for adult humans to be near.

My son in Connecticut found a pit bull wandering around in the snow a few weeks back — the dog came to him when he called and was friendly as hell — nice waggy tail. No docked tail, so that was an indication that this was a family pet. He brought the dog into the hallway outside his apt and called 911 to report him. The pound wasn’t open so they dispatched a police officer to pick it up for the night. When the officer arrived, he immediately, upon seeing the dog, unholstered his weapon and pulled it, at the same time ordering my son to heel his dog. My son, after grabbing and holding the dog, explained that it wasn’t his dog, he’d found it out in the snow, and it was friendly. The officer called the dog over and they were bff’s before they left.

It’s kind of sad to be a pit bull — bred to do something nobody in our society wants a dog ever to do. I understand your desire not to have one, for my sister is the person who has a pit bull just to strike fear in everyone she encounters on her walks.

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Now, the liberals are certainly welcome to bring forward a bill legitimizing postnatal abortion, but what chance does that have in passing?

unclesmrgol on March 30, 2013 at 11:41 PM

Oh, I definitely see your point. I just don’t have quite the faith you do that it wouldn’t pass. It is already legal Va according to the article you linked.

Pattosensei on March 31, 2013 at 12:04 AM

I understand your point, tho’.

davidk on March 30, 2013 at 11:46 PM

You know I’d never harm a hair on their heads. Thuja on the other hand would volunteer to help in the cause to rid the planet of unwanted humans.

I had a discussion a while back with it and it couldn’t even be convinced the child needed an anesthetic during a late term abortion. He said it was a waste of time and money.

hawkdriver on March 31, 2013 at 12:37 AM

Q:”why wouldn’t you transport it to the hospital”
A: “It might be 45 mins away”

Dollayo on March 31, 2013 at 1:27 AM

thuja on March 30, 2013 at 11:29 PM

Your comparison threw me for a loop, but I have never required anyone to agree with me so I won’t start now. I hope your Passover celebration is blessed.

Cindy Munford on March 31, 2013 at 9:46 AM

Now that I understand his views must I never interact with him again?

Cindy Munford on March 30, 2013 at 6:12 PM

Dialogue is usually a good idea, and I find you likeable. But make the right decision for yourself.

thuja on March 30, 2013 at 11:29 PM

Like a scene from Silence of the Lambs.

hawkdriver on March 31, 2013 at 11:11 AM

hawkdriver on March 31, 2013 at 11:11 AM

Don’t worry, I have a gun. Several.

Cindy Munford on March 31, 2013 at 11:30 AM

hawkdriver on March 31, 2013 at 11:11 AM

Don’t worry, I have a gun. Several.

Cindy Munford on March 31, 2013 at 11:30 AM

lol

Okay Clarice. You and Mr. Munford have a blessed Easter.

He is risen!

hawkdriver on March 31, 2013 at 12:18 PM

He is risen!

hawkdriver on March 31, 2013 at 12:18 PM

And we are eternally grateful.

Cindy Munford on March 31, 2013 at 1:14 PM

uncivilized savages… plain and simple. The fact that liberals defend this horror be paid for by our taxes is absolutely incredible and says volumes about the cancer that is progressive liberalism.

ultracon on March 31, 2013 at 1:30 PM

thuja, every time one of those living/breathing kids are murdered, you should feel the pain so deeply that you can’t breathe yourself.

Those who excuse you should also.

I hope that you can never get this off your minds and souls.

Schadenfreude on March 31, 2013 at 2:06 PM

Let it be recorded, for ‘humanity’ and ‘civilization’, extraterrestrials too, that in the year 2013, on this Easter day, there is evidence that human sacrifices are still condoned.

Schadenfreude on March 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Schadenfreude on March 31, 2013 at 2:06 PM

With you as the conscience of Hot Air, I can still sleep at night.

Cindy Munford on March 31, 2013 at 4:57 PM

This is hardly the first death cult in the world. It may be the largest however. Baal comes to mind by burning infants to death.

CW20 on March 31, 2013 at 7:39 PM

Let it be recorded, for ‘humanity’ and ‘civilization’, extraterrestrials too, that in the year 2013, on this Easter day, there is evidence that human sacrifices are still condoned.

Schadenfreude on March 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Indeed — as long as abortion is the law of the land.

unclesmrgol on March 31, 2013 at 11:53 PM

From the shop next door to Kermit’s

liberty0 on April 1, 2013 at 1:33 AM

Darn, why didn’t the link show up when I put it in the “link” box?
http://www.engrish.com/wp-content/uploads//2013/03/broiled-baby.jpg

liberty0 on April 1, 2013 at 1:34 AM

We will ALL be held accountable for the things we’ve said and done to one another.

Cherokee on April 1, 2013 at 8:49 AM

Is that hag Fluke’s puffy sister or what?

Sherman1864 on April 1, 2013 at 10:08 AM

Let it be recorded, for ‘humanity’ and ‘civilization’, extraterrestrials too, that in the year 2013, on this Easter day, there is evidence that human sacrifices are still condoned.

Schadenfreude on March 31, 2013 at 2:09 PM

The Aztecs didn’t do it this well.

This is why I hope ET either doesn’t exist or doesn’t ever find us. Any species that not only condones but worships such things would likely be exterminated out of righteous rage or overrun as barbarians who didn’t deserve the ground they sat on.

MelonCollie on April 1, 2013 at 10:30 AM

This woman is a Monster!!

williamg on April 2, 2013 at 12:03 AM

Civilized Western Society: killing its future, one unknowable lost future citizen at a time.

chotii on April 2, 2013 at 1:00 AM

Play by their rules and call this the Left’s:

WAR ON BABIES!!!

WAR ON BABIES!!!

WAR ON BABIES!!!

Logic on April 2, 2013 at 7:08 AM

Why are y’all so upset over this? The new pope gave pelosi & biden communion so all must be well. So much for the “self excommunication” some of the catholics on here talked about a few months ago. As long as catholics/Christians vote for demonrats these policies will continue to grow and become more hideous. Some of what’s going on in this country sure seems a lot like Nazi Germany.

johnny reb on April 3, 2013 at 3:47 PM

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