Yes, liberal friends, the government is ‘protecting’ you from delicious, local food

posted at 9:21 pm on March 28, 2013 by Mary Katharine Ham

I can feel it. This is where we come together, people. When it comes to our stomachs, we’re all libertarians now.

Why? Because a growing cultural trend of embracing high-quality foods from local sources to make our gobbling both more green and more gratifying has run into a lot of onerous food regulation that makes the delivering and selling of your neighborhood kale or goat cheese illegal. It has also run into entrenched food purveyors in the market who are more than happy to use government regulation to muscle out these small, new competitors. This cultural trend is of course also fertile ground for many a liberal buzzword. There’s homesteading and sustainable eating, which you may know by the term “my garden.” There are locavores, which you may know by the less catchy “neighbors to whom I give extra bell peppers from my garden.” There’s a CSA, which you may know as a “farm.” But the point is, we like the same, yummy things and those yummy things, by whatever name you choose to call them, require freedom and local control to truly prosper.

Which is why more towns, even/especially in liberal states, are doing this:

Voters here made their town the fifth in Hancock County to pass a local food sovereignty ordinance that thumbs its nose at state and federal regulations for direct-to-consumer sales of prepared foods and farm products.

In a referendum election on March 4, residents voted 112-64 to approve the “Local Food and Community Self-Governance Ordinance,” which states that producers or processors of local foods are “exempt from licensure and inspection,” so long as the food is sold directly by the producer to a consumer.

The ordinance also makes it “unlawful for any law or regulation adopted by the state or federal government to interfere with the rights organized by this ordinance.”

The state contends that such ordinances hold no legal weight, but that hasn’t stopped residents of Sedgwick, Penobscot, Blue Hill and Trenton from passing the same local rules. Food sovereignty ordinances also have been passed in Hope, Plymouth, Livermore and Appleton.

In an interview, Kaylene Waindle, special assistant to the attorney general, said the state has a legitimate and legal interest in overseeing the safety of food being sold to consumers, and that state laws about food safety, inspection and licensing pre-empt local ordinances.

Much like individual states passing marijuana laws that fly in the face of the federal government’s stance on cannabis, the dispute over who controls local food regulation seems destined for court.

“Food sovereignty,” by the way is what we know as plain old-fashioned freedom. These are important fights, not least of all because they communicate to people who might generally be liberal in disposition the following concept. It is nonsensical to think the government far away in our state capital is the only force that can ensure the high quality of the food we eat. In the case of this local food, we often know the growers, and are friends with those who bring it to market, which in our minds, makes it a safer bet than most of what comes through the USDA or FDA. We are part of a community of growers that holds itself to high standards of freshness and maintains best practices. Preventing us from growing or obtaining this delicious food from our neighbors in the process of mutually beneficial commerce seems downright unAmerican, especially when tiny local farmers are disproportionately affected by burdensome regulations.

Yes, now in the same manner as you would a leafy green from Farmer Brown’s with the good soil still clinging to its roots— wash, rinse, and repeat.

In Washington, D.C., where the most recent outbreak of libertarianism among my liberal friends came when the taxi cabs tried to regulate their limos out of existence, now the regulators are after food trucks. I welcome this clatch of literal limousine liberals to the libertarian fold on any issue we can get them, and this is another one. Keep in mind, the wonder that is gourmet, diverse, affordable food truck dining in America’s cities was borne partly of the high barrier to entry in the restaurant business. Lots of regulations, lots of overhead, lots of property taxes. A truck allowed a more free-wheeling service, and the public lined up. Now, entrenched restaurants are none too happy about it, resulting in proposed regulations that would ban food trucks from most of downtown D.C.

Well the idea is to establish “23 mobile vending zones throughout the city where limited numbers of food trucks would be allowed to sell food” with each zone featuring at least three trucks and assignment to different zones auctioned by lottery. She also wrote a longer column featuring interviews with many truck owners about the problems this will cause for their businesses.

But my question is what problem is this proposal intended to solve? I don’t hear any clear rationale for these rules and the only real beneficiaries would seem to be owners of non-mobile downtown lunch businesses.

That would hardly be the first time that a city government adopted irrational vendor rules designed to benefit incumbents but it’s not good.

No, it certainly wouldn’t be the first time. Check out the map just slathered in red, where people would be unable to sell goods to people who want to buy them.

D.C. food trucks have been dealing with this uncertainty for quite some time now. Let Che, owner of his own truck and political director of the Food Truck Association, tell you about it in this video by my bud Sean Malone:

The Washington Examiner‘s Tim Carney hosted a great panel on the subject of food freedom at American Enterprise Institute this month. Video, here.

Oh, and this is a video I did a while back on the FDA jackbooting Amish farmers who sell raw milk. Yeah, that’s me drinking raw milk. Because ‘Merica.

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We’re from the Government and we’re here to help!

LeftCoastRight on March 28, 2013 at 9:23 PM

Now I am huungry lol…

Get Gov’t Out of Food!!

Scrumpy on March 28, 2013 at 9:25 PM

Free Food!*

*As in Free James Brown, not free as in obozo phones.

Flange on March 28, 2013 at 9:26 PM

An apple a day keeps the Government a stay.

Electrongod on March 28, 2013 at 9:27 PM

central planning is awesome. the obama left

rob verdi on March 28, 2013 at 9:31 PM

MK, drinking raw milk?

Now you gotta pull a Tina Korbe and enjoy a stick of fried butter!

22044 on March 28, 2013 at 9:34 PM

Only rBST milk for me.

tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 9:35 PM

Free Food!*

*As in Free James Brown, not free as in obozo phones.

Flange on March 28, 2013 at 9:26 PM

Food Rights Activists. :)

22044 on March 28, 2013 at 9:35 PM

I’m still working on whether or not the kid with the apple freaks me out.

Bishop on March 28, 2013 at 9:36 PM

It has only been 17 years since the tea tasters of the FDA were disbanded.

tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 9:38 PM

Do mothers who breast feed have to obtain permits or a license?

BobMbx on March 28, 2013 at 9:39 PM

Food sanctuary cities?

Count to 10 on March 28, 2013 at 9:46 PM

I’m going to be proposing this same ordinance to my own city council. It’s common sense, and it’s about time we started nullifying so many of these state and federal regulations.

TKindred on March 28, 2013 at 9:46 PM

Time to stock up. The EPA is working with extremists groups to limit the food supply.

News2Use on March 28, 2013 at 9:57 PM

Do mothers who breast feed have to obtain permits or a license?

BobMbx on March 28, 2013 at 9:39 PM

Or submit to regular inspections?

Axe on March 28, 2013 at 9:59 PM

At any rate, whether this is a good idea or not comes down to how common the traded products are dangerously contaminated. If it isn’t that big a deal to avoid being poisoned, regulation is wasteful. When you are talking about local producers that you frequent and continue to buy from year in and year out, regulations is unnecessary.
For the most part, strict regulations are useful only for when there is a big, long distance market where you really have no idea where any individual item comes from, and are unlikely to buy from the same producer twice.

Count to 10 on March 28, 2013 at 10:02 PM

As long as the handling of raw dairy products are handled correctly, there shouldn’t be any problem consuming the product.

I would like to know what data prompted the FDA to ban raw dairy in the first place.

Kini on March 28, 2013 at 10:03 PM

…eat me…!!!

KOOLAID2 on March 28, 2013 at 10:04 PM

My freezers and pantry are stuffed with “illegal” food, I guess, because I’ve been bartering with local farmers for years.

Bishop on March 28, 2013 at 10:05 PM

F*ck Monsanto.

NorthernCross on March 28, 2013 at 10:11 PM

I know a guy in Houston that has a taco truck and sells breakfast tacos from 6-10 AM.He knocked down over $200 grand last year.There are 100′s of trucks in the county and you never hear of anyone getting sick.

docflash on March 28, 2013 at 10:12 PM

All of this home gardening sounds an awful lot like violations of the Commerce Clause.

AttackWatch has been notified.

BobMbx on March 28, 2013 at 10:13 PM

I wonder what would happen if people suddenly realized they didn’t need the federal government for anything at all?

The Vet down the street needs money to keep the bills current, but everybody checks their pockets and notices they all have twice as much money as before, and it is all worth more. They pass the hat, pay his monthly bill, then notice they have enough as a community to build a hospital and staff it with doctors for people in trouble — call it a charity hospital or something crazy.

They are worried about the roads until they notice the fed isn’t still taking its monthly road-protection payments, and suddenly the roads can all be fixed.

Someone suggests a holiday and everybody gets quiet — and then they sigh with relief and feel strangely free when they realize they can govern themselves like they want. No hammer is going to fall — no one is holding the hammer.

– Could go on. I know the federal government has actual responsibilities, like a common defense and providing common rules for interstate trade. But I don’t have much doubt that, here, now, if the entire federal bureaucracy disappeared in a God-given, pop-rapture, the lives of every man, woman and child would improve significantly. The few real problems it left behind, we would be better able to solve without it.

Axe on March 28, 2013 at 10:18 PM

A few years ago we had a SWAT team raid a local Amish dairy. They were charged with selling raw milk to people who actually wanted to buy raw milk.

Have you ever had raw milk? It’s like tasting milk for the first time. It’s like, when you drink it you realize you’ve never actually tasted real milk before.

I’m not saying I drank raw milk, mind you. I don’t know nothing about it. Have no idea how to buy it or who sells it. But I heard a story about how good it is. Not that I remember who told me that story.
Here’s the link.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/28/feds-sting-amish-farmer-selling-raw-milk-locally/

How stupid is this? Seriously.

“It is the FDA’s position that raw milk should never be consumed,” said Tamara N. Ward, spokeswoman for the FDA,

JellyToast on March 28, 2013 at 10:22 PM

I’m for everything, including the food trucks with one proviso, that being the truck has to be doing selling on private property. If they want to make arrangements to sell in parking lots fine and dandy, but not while parked in the public right of way without a permit.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 10:29 PM

F*ck Monsanto.

NorthernCross on March 28, 2013 at 10:11 PM

My favorite meme.

tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 10:31 PM

Monsanto is a hispanic surname btw, you racist.

tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 10:36 PM

Oh, yeah. Raw milk is good stuff.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 10:38 PM

Oh, yeah. Raw milk is good stuff.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 10:38 PM

Does the FDA realize people have been drinking raw milk since the beginning of time?

The FDa destroyed cider too. It has to be pasteurized now. I and people I know have been drinking real cider since I was little. But somewhere in America a kid had a bad reaction to cider and now the FDA said it has to be pasteurized for our own good.

It tastes like apple juice… but the bottle still says cider. But it’s not cider. It’s apple juice. Kids are growing up now having never known what real cider tasted like.

JellyToast on March 28, 2013 at 10:45 PM

The FDA destroyed eggs too. Use ta could store eggs for months. Not so much anymore.

Blame Monsanto. j/k

tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 10:47 PM

How stupid is this? Seriously.

[JellyToast on March 28, 2013 at 10:22 PM]

I’d find it a lot less stupid if she had qualified it by saying untested raw milk.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 10:51 PM

I was living in New Orleans less than a year after Katrina. There was a huge influx of Hispanics (doing construction) in a city that was pretty much a black and white city with a significant Vietnamese community. Well, firsttaco trucks appeared and the city was ill equiped to deal with rolling kitchens. They tried to regulate the taco trucks out of existence by making the rules for where they could park so stringent that they thought the “problem” would be gone. Instead, the owners found private locations where they could operate and ultimately many ended up making enough they set up restaurants. In a very short time, the Big Easy got Mexican restaurants.

I relate this story only to point out that for any regulation, Americans are going to still find ways to do what they want to do. Tamping down supply is not going to squelch demand. This is true if we are talking about any commodity including produce, taco trucks, and limos.

Happy Nomad on March 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM

FOOD JUST WANTS TO BE FREE!!!!

Ace ODale on March 28, 2013 at 10:52 PM

[JellyToast on March 28, 2013 at 10:45 PM]

I agree with what you say on cider, too. It does taste like apple juice when it’s pasteurized. It’s sad really, that they’ve ruined apple cider by forcing it to be sold that way.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 10:54 PM

I’d find it a lot less stupid if she had qualified it by saying untested raw milk.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 10:51 PM

It should be about choice.

The libs really aren’t for choice at all. But it’s a good word that low info voters understand. If the GOP were actually clever and creative they could do a lot with that word “choice.” But they don’t.

JellyToast on March 28, 2013 at 10:57 PM

The FDA destroyed eggs too. Use ta could store eggs for months. Not so much anymore.

Blame Monsanto. j/k

[tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 10:47 PM]

How did they do that? I know there is a big difference between commercially laid eggs and free range eggs, both in taste and texture but I didn’t know that FDA regs have had any effect.

Personally, I like green eggs better than the standard colored egg.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 11:03 PM

How did they do that? I know there is a big difference between commercially laid eggs and free range eggs, both in taste and texture but I didn’t know that FDA regs have had any effect.

Personally, I like green eggs better than the standard colored egg.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 11:03 PM

I can’t find any cites…probably due to my search terms. According to a relative of mine, from whom i get eggs, the FDA overreacted in teh ’90′s to a salmonella scare and now eggs do not have the shelf life they naturally have because of washing.

I’ll keep looking for a proper cite.

tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 11:15 PM

[tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 11:15 PM]

K. Thanks. No hurry.

Dusty on March 28, 2013 at 11:31 PM

Axe on March 28, 2013 at 10:18 PM

The real social upheaval is going to be if the Democrat voters are run out of an area long enough for the remainder to notice just how little they miss ‘diversity’…and just how much better off they are.

Watch the hell out if that happens. It WILL give people…ideas.

MelonCollie on March 28, 2013 at 11:40 PM

To disagree with the feds on this doe not make me a Libertarian.

Bullhead on March 28, 2013 at 11:57 PM

Food and drug purity laws aren’t part of some nanny state scheme to steal our freedom. Sure, many of them are stupid and should be amended or repealed, but they are there because we TRIED the libertarian do-as-thou-wilt method for over a century, and the public demanded action.

For every health-conscious honest producer, there is also a devious and vile fraud who would sell spoiled or unsafe products to the public, and there is no way for the public to tell the difference BEFORE people become ill.

Your beloved “locally produced” pork is far more likely to carry trichinosis than “factory farm” pork. And you are more likely to get sick from your “natural organic” apple than one which was sprayed with Alar – whether or not you rinse first.

Does the FDA realize people have been drinking raw milk since the beginning of time?

The FDa destroyed cider too. It has to be pasteurized now. I and people I know have been drinking real cider since I was little. But somewhere in America a kid had a bad reaction to cider and now the FDA said it has to be pasteurized for our own good.

It tastes like apple juice… but the bottle still says cider. But it’s not cider. It’s apple juice. Kids are growing up now having never known what real cider tasted like.

JellyToast on March 28, 2013 at 10:45 PM

Not everybody who eats tainted potato salad at a family picnic gets sick, either. That doesn’t mean it’s safe.

Adjoran on March 29, 2013 at 12:19 AM

How stupid is this? Seriously.

“It is the FDA’s position that raw milk should never be consumed,” said Tamara N. Ward, spokeswoman for the FDA,

JellyToast on March 28, 2013 at 10:22 PM

Pretty dang stupid if you ask me, but what do I know. I just grew up drinking the stuff, oh and also getting it out of the cow. I hand milked our cows for most of my childhood. My mother used raw milk for cooking too. Most folks where I grew up had cows and did the same thing. I personally don’t know of anyone who ever had any problems stemming from drinking raw milk but my step neighbor in law tells me that his barber’s sister’s boyfriend’s cousin knew someone who got sick from it a few years back.

Oldnuke on March 29, 2013 at 12:32 AM

Hey…

Can I begin an “Income Sovereignty” bill? Whereby we make the income tax illegal at the state level and criminalize any feds trying to come into our state to enforce it?

I’d probably get one of those DHS bullets right in my head for even mentioning it.

fatlibertarianinokc on March 29, 2013 at 2:29 AM

It is the FDA’s position that raw milk should never be consumed,” said Tamara N. Ward, spokeswoman for the FDA,

JellyToast on March 28, 2013 at 10:22 PM

My wife, myself and our 2 children (adults now) consumed raw milk purchased from a certified dairy in S. Cal for years until it was banned. I’m investigating getting a milk cow now that I have fled from the Socialist State of California. I’ll have all the raw milk we want plus can make our own milk products. Yes there is a bit of risk consuming raw milk (salmonella) over pasteurized but it should be my risk to assume.

chemman on March 29, 2013 at 3:05 AM

They can take my gun raw milk mustache when they pry it from my cold, dead hands
upper lip.

soundingboard on March 29, 2013 at 3:11 AM

Here is the problem.

I was testifying in Olympia (capital of Washington) on an ordanence to allow neighbors to watch other neighbor’s children (like a day care, but with folks you know and live next to) without the neighbor’s needing to get a state license to do so.

I was arguing with a Liberal Seattle representitive regarding the lack of need for licensing to let neighbors watch neighbor’s kids when she up and said – “So you’re against safe guards. Would you have us remove the metal detectors at airports too?”

I answered, “NO, I would not remove metal detectors at the airports, but I don’t need one to go flying in my neighbor’s Cesna 172.”

She then said, “What does a Cesna 172 have to do with this?”

Liberals are Too Stupid to figure out common sense!

jaydee_007 on March 29, 2013 at 3:48 AM

Raised on a farm where we drank raw milk, made our own butter and cheese, raised chickens, beef, grew vegetables and fruit and canned the largest percent of our food. We did buy flour but at the time, there was a mill where where it was ground from grains. Regulations closed the mill and farmers were not allowed to sell milk or milk products to the public. Regulations slowly closed the farms and well water was considered not safe because it lacked chlorine. The land that was worked is now taxed so high it was not worth keeping. You may build your dream house on a plot of land but in reality you rent it from the government, miss paying your taxes and it’s taken from you. I pity the youth of today but I’m thankful I lived in paradise for 75 years.

mixplix on March 29, 2013 at 4:34 AM

mixplix on March 29, 2013 at 4:34 AM

Sorry to hear this. But there are still many places in our great country where one can live like this and have low taxes too. I know because this is how I live. I enjoy the garden, raising cows and dairy goats, chickens, turkeys, bailing hay, etc.

The issue of food regulation is one of the few issues a very good liberal friend of mine and I can agree on. Of course, when I try to apply the same principals to other things, he looks at me with a blank look on his face. Go figure.

BierManVA on March 29, 2013 at 5:51 AM

Check out Joel Salatin’s Everything I Want To Do Is Illegal

here

Cleombrotus on March 29, 2013 at 7:47 AM

As a small farmer, I can tell you that the upcoming regulations that the FDA and USDA are working on will end farmers markets for all but the very large farms.

In January, the USDA demanded I complete a 26 page, very detailed, “farm census”. I tried to ignore it, but they started calling me. So I finished it.

They wanted to know how many chickens I have, how many, ducks, guineas and peafowl. They wanted to know how many goats I had and how much mohair they produced (since I spin the mohair myself to make yarn, I don’t bother weighing!) They wanted to know how many acres of woods, pasture, hay, crops, etc. that I have.

They wanted to know if I had a greenhouse or a garden, no matter how small.

Even though I quit selling eggs (because of new regulations) and they are used only for our family, they wanted to know how many eggs the hens produce each day. Damn, my hens are free range- I don’t find all their eggs- sometimes, a hen will show up with a bunch of chicks that she hatched on the sly!

Beware. The government is planning on controlling the entire food supply.

Beth Donovan on March 29, 2013 at 7:55 AM

Food conglomerate control of U.S. agriculture has long been a major issue in Leftist circles. Less so in the brain dead average liberal/Dem voter who actually believe that party is anti-corporate. I do think it is funny that Michelle Obama is against inner city food desserts while her husband lets Monsanto run rampant. At a certain point the right is going to have to acknowledge that the problem isn’t “government” but rather corporate control of the government. In short, the problem is the way the profit motive (ie greed) of politicians has produced a system where campaign donations are a quid pro quo for policy. There is no version of the U.S. electoral system, as is, that will avoid bribes through corporate giving. You can put all the Republicans in office you want, and these kinds of regulations will still exist because they protect the profit line of large corporations.

libfreeordie on March 29, 2013 at 8:11 AM

Every year, we give hundreds of pounds of cleaned pecans to friends around the country. We give many bags to the retired grandmoms for cooking for their familys. We jump out of our truck and give bags to any veterans we see wandering around the veterans’ hospital down the road. We do this because we don’t have a pecan market in this area and we don’t want to see them go to waste. None of these expenses are ever reported for tax purposes.

There is a federal move to license and inspect pecan sources and when they try to do our farm, I will have a lot of firewood. How many people out there have ever died from poisoned pecan. I guess I’ll also have to stop giving handouts to the destitute out there. I think that part of this is the librul move to control everything we do and part is that we have a lot of bureaucrats with time on their hands. Maybe instead of shutting down airport control towers, closing parks, stopping wh tours, shutting down our aircraft carriers, and messing with our food, we should sequester a bunch of bureaucrats within the beltway.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 9:19 AM

It used ot be, when everyone did not own a car, the larger businesses had internal cafeterias or snack bars.
It became a big boon to business, when they could get out of food service and concentrate on producing their products. They were able to do this with the advent of food service trucks. Although often referred to a “roach coaches” they were generally much loved by employees. Although they did not favorably compare to executive dining rooms, if you had several you had greater variety. In my 59 year work life, I have known them all. The people know what they are getting.

Almost every time we have mass poisonings, it is because some mass-producing corporate food processor f–ks up massively. I assume it is OK with government bureaucrats if hundreds of people get salmonella from fecal matter, but heaven forbid if a single person gets the wild screaming collywobbles from eating from a road side food kiosk.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 9:39 AM

Get Gov’t Out of Food!!

Scrumpy on March 28, 2013 at 9:25 PM

And Get Food out of Gov’t! (Well, heck, it might work.)

Or submit to regular inspections?

Axe on March 28, 2013 at 9:59 PM

Isn’t government big enough? This should be handled by a volunteer organization of citizen inspectors…..

.There are 100′s of trucks in the county and you never hear of anyone getting sick.

docflash on March 28, 2013 at 10:12 PM

One of the things that always drove me nuts when going overseas for military exercises and such: “do not eat food from street vendors” was always somewhere in the warnings/rules. Except that street vendor food was some of the best food around! But, there was this assumption that anything that didn’t come from a store/restaurant was unsafe. In reality, the internal distresses suffered by most folks who ate from a street vendor had nothing to do with unsafe food and everything to do with the weak constitutions of people unused to odd spices and such.

But I don’t have much doubt that, here, now, if the entire federal bureaucracy disappeared in a God-given, pop-rapture, the lives of every man, woman and child would improve significantly. The few real problems it left behind, we would be better able to solve without it.

Axe on March 28, 2013 at 10:18 PM

I mostly agree – eventually. The problem would be dealing with all the suddenly feral looters who would be without their lifelines.

now eggs do not have the shelf life they naturally have because of washing.

tom daschle concerned on March 28, 2013 at 11:15 PM

Well, you’re not supposed to cook with the shells! Hello!

they are there because we TRIED the libertarian do-as-thou-wilt method for over a century, and the public demanded action.
Adjoran on March 29, 2013 at 12:19 AM

Actually, it was only when people began to believe that the government should be protecting them that they began to “demand action”. Of course, that doesn’t mean the government should take action.

For every health-conscious honest producer, there is also a devious and vile fraud who would sell spoiled or unsafe products to the public, and there is no way for the public to tell the difference BEFORE people become ill.

Adjoran on March 29, 2013 at 12:19 AM

LOL, really? There’s people out there just waiting to sell us rotten lettuce the minute the regulations are loosened? You have watched way too many 60 Minutes documentaries.

Your beloved “locally produced” pork is far more likely to carry trichinosis than “factory farm” pork. And you are more likely to get sick from your “natural organic” apple than one which was sprayed with Alar – whether or not you rinse first.

Adjoran on March 29, 2013 at 12:19 AM

There’s this thing called “cooking” that heats your meat up until it is no longer raw. It tends to kill these things we call “bacteria” and “larvae” that are in the raw meat. Even the Cro-Magnons knew about it – it comes as a benefit of this thing we call “fire”.

Not everybody who eats tainted potato salad at a family picnic gets sick, either. That doesn’t mean it’s safe.

Adjoran on March 29, 2013 at 12:19 AM

If nobody gets sick from it, then, by definition, it is safe.

jaydee_007 on March 29, 2013 at 3:48 AM

Was your answer, “I’m not sure, but you’re the one who brought up the irrelevant topic; I was just following along.”?

Beth Donovan on March 29, 2013 at 7:55 AM

A perfect example of the grasping control required by an all-encompassing government.

At a certain point the right is going to have to acknowledge that the problem isn’t “government” but rather corporate control of the government.

libfreeordie on March 29, 2013 at 8:11 AM

Exactly backwards, lfd. The problem is that the government (at the federal level, anyway) has no duty or responsibility to regulate this stuff, but certain folks (those would be liberals) insisted they do so. Once they began regulating, of course corporate influence began to assert itself. If you’re going to be regulated, you’re going to try and influence that regulation in your favor. Get the government out of that business and the business will get out of government.

I think that part of this is the librul move to control everything we do and part is that we have a lot of bureaucrats with time on their hands.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 9:19 AM

Absolutely. It’s all about control.

GWB on March 29, 2013 at 10:29 AM

If nobody gets sick from it, then, by definition, it is safe.

jaydee_007 on March 29, 2013 at 3:48 AM

Define “safe”.

No one has fallen off the Washington Monument. Does that mean its safe?

[Full disclosure: I'm a system safety engineer for weapon systems. I do this all day, every day. There is no such thing as "safe". There is risk in everything. "Safe", or more appropriately "risk", is determined by two factors: Probability of occurrence and severity of the mishap. Risk is ever-present in everything]

BobMbx on March 29, 2013 at 11:06 AM

BobMbx — You are quibbling. If the gumment wanted to help us they would make the manufacturers publish MTBF data for each appliance over $1K. Safety, like any engineering subject, can be reduced ad infinitum. In reality, because thousands of people are sickened by an agricultural conglomerate incorporating salmonella or feces in the hamburger, or the organic idiots get poisoned by the feces from their spinach pickers, doesn’t mean that they should go after mom and pop, where if you get sick, you know who to go after. Do you know that American farmers are put out of business by the gummint so they can force us to support foreign (say South and Central American) farmers to fight “communism” without foreign aid.

BM, you’re a safety guy. Where do you think the greatest cost/benefit exists. Sending thousands of inspectors after mom and pop, or a handful of inspectors after the agri-conglomerates. As Jerry Pournelle says, the bunny inspectors will never be eliminated. They are some politicians’ cousins.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 11:46 AM

Simple test. Put a small cup of store bought milk out with Raw for a few days. The Raw will curdle. The store bought will rot.

46blitz on March 29, 2013 at 12:06 PM

BM, you’re a safety guy. Where do you think the greatest cost/benefit exists. Sending thousands of inspectors after mom and pop, or a handful of inspectors after the agri-conglomerates. As Jerry Pournelle says, the bunny inspectors will never be eliminated. They are some politicians’ cousins.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 11:46 AM

As a safety professional, my job is to identify and quantify risk, not provide a guarantee. Without any empirical data to back this up, I would assume that over-the-counter sales of homegrown fruits and veggies has a low health risk, while processed foods and meats/poultry have a much higher risk of causing illness.

From the CBA side, I would recommend surveillance programs be geared toward the most likely and most hazardous streams in the food supply chain, and that being the fresh meat and processed food areas.

Don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t defending the effort to curtail curb-side veggie cart and flea market sales. I was pointing out that we are never ‘safe’. Some things do have more risk than others, though.

Who knows….maybe the cat did whiz on the zuchinni.

BobMbx on March 29, 2013 at 12:31 PM

Stop calling these dumba$$ leftists “liberals” Mary Katherine. There is nothing liberal about them. It is a word with meaning and only Libertarians are liberals.

woodNfish on March 29, 2013 at 12:31 PM

Simple test. Put a small cup of store bought milk out with Raw for a few days. The Raw will curdle. The store bought will rot.

46blitz on March 29, 2013 at 12:06 PM

And? I’m not sure of your point.

GWB on March 29, 2013 at 12:35 PM

GWB on March 29, 2013 at 12:35 PM

I think I misread your comment.

GWB on March 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Now for something a little different = education for the uneducatable. Everything comes full circle and the gods of the copybook headings is returning with terror and slaughter are returning:

purpuric fever: Once was the number one killer of women and babies in this world. It was transmitted by physicians who did not wash hands before delivering the baby. Both baby and mother almost always died. But the people who drind raw milk cured this by burning a few witches. Now we have come full circle and the doctors are murdering babies through abortion. When will we ever learn.

Lesson Number 2: Raw milk. The only reason raw milk is not so lethal today is that the milk, in general, is collected in stainless steel teats, stored in ss tanks and delivered in a few hours by truck to the dairy. Some of this has rubbed off on raw milk production. Can any of you raw milk morons remember the American Lung Association x-ray screening trucks everywhere. TB is one of the most deadly and infectious disease ever to hit mankind. Until 1951, it was uncurable, The production of aureomycin provided the first arrestment (there still is no cure). The curb-side x-ray discovered TB in my father and he went immediately to a sanatorium to die. Everybody in our area was tested and we all failed the tests. Most of his clothes were burned because it was chic in those days, for girls to wear their father’s long sleeve shirts. My father got one of the first of the new antibiotic treatments, and instead of going to the mule barn to die, he eventually came home. I, by the way as a child, was on sulfa and soda water for a long time. We now have come full circle. The idiots are drinking non-pasturized milk again (one of the major vectors of the pathogen), and we are getting illegal immigrants again, from countries that do not pasturize their milk. This TB does NOT RESPOND to antibiotics. Bye Bye, you fools.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 12:36 PM

There are a dozen reasons to promote local food production, but I think the greatest is national security. After a catastrophe that causes our financial system to collapse, who knows how our just-in-time food delivery systems will function.

elfman on March 29, 2013 at 1:39 PM

libfreeordie on March 29, 2013 at 8:11 AM

As was stated elsewhere – the only reason the corps have as much influence is because someone decided toegulate th hell out of them. So they have a bevy of lobbyists who work to protect themselves and also try and make things better for them. That is the govt – not the business – creating the environment.

OCB – I think, with many things it is a matter of degree. Pasturization has its own issues, both medically as well as nutritionally. Back in the day – raw milk more than likely did not have many of the safe handling protocols in place as today.

Yes, the regulations have – or perhaps had – a purpose, but unfortunately it has gone overboard. Hence this reaction back against all the govt does. Perhaps if it only worried about the big stuff, it would help.

Zomcon JEM on March 29, 2013 at 1:40 PM

Do mothers who breast feed have to obtain permits or a license?

BobMbx on March 28, 2013 at 9:39 PM

Or submit to regular inspections?

Axe on March 28, 2013 at 9:59 PM

Where do I apply for that breast inspector job?

patch on March 29, 2013 at 1:53 PM

Zomcon JEM on March 29, 2013 at 1:40 PM

You are right. The government needs to concern itself with the big things, not the picayune. Unfortunately, as far as rw milk is concerned, we and the government must concern ourselves with it. Thea is critical. TB first gets into the population through the vector of raw milk. TB is then spread through aerosol and contact from coughing and spitting. TB is not curable. If TB gets into the population it is incredibly hard to eradicate. The first part we catch in controlling the dairies. The second part we control with the yellow line at immigration. Of course, there isn’t a yellow line at the Mexican border.

It is incredible to me that some people are so self centered or libertarian that they can’t put up with this kind of protection. This is a special case, not a bunch of apples at a fruit stand. By the way: Easter Seals started as a funding mechanism to eliminate TB. It is Easter time. Give your raw milk a rest for the rest of us.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 1:59 PM

I don’t drink it – and even as a boy at a family commercial dairy didn’t care for it right out of the cow. I prefer a 2% amount.

That being said – raw milk is not all about TB. Everything has a price. You have a specific memory about one of them. The raw milkies point out that there are also pretty strong bacterial strains in the commercial process that also kill people – despite our efforts to prevent it.

The biggest issue of TB – poor treatment by people who have allowed it grow into a super bug – which we struggle to combat. That exists now everywhere there are people – raw milk is not the only problem, not even the most serious in that regard.

Single issue fixes are just – single issues that end up swallowing more and more freedoms. You are more likely to get TB from your co-worker or from the kitchen of your favorite, health inspected, restaurant.

Zomcon JEM on March 29, 2013 at 2:10 PM

Zomcon JEM on March 29, 2013 at 2:10 PM

You are right that TB is not dependent on milk today, but it was and could be again. But since you came from a commercial dairy, even in those days, the cows were inspected, the dairy was inspected, the delivery system was inspected and the processing facility was inspected. That was/is a good use for government inspection. And also, as you said (and as I said) most TB transmission today comes through contact and aerosol (because we have these inspections in place.). Tell me. Where is the most cost/benefit effective place to place your control? You drank milk inspected at the cow. If we are going to have raw milk, it needs to be inspected at the cow and certified therefore. You figure out how to do. Mistakes are costly.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 2:49 PM

Kini on March 28, 2013 at 10:03 PM == Problem with today’s schools is they don’t teach you anything, Read the above comments. I suppose this thread is coming to an end because a few of you have just realized that there is an intrusive function of the federal government that is important, but since no one remembers their history, the requirement seems intrusive and trivial.

Leave home gardens alone, but continue inspecting milk and meat. I you want raw milk, betting on the current regulations to provide safety, knock yourself out. Don’t feed it to your children. That is the same bet the opponents of inoculation use.

Old Country Boy on March 29, 2013 at 3:31 PM

Up until the past year or so, our state regulated anything produced and sold within the State of Kansas. Including eggs. I followed those rules and regulations with no problem, as I don’t transport them out of state to be sold and I do not sell to grocery stores or restaurants – I sell directly to the consumer.

The damned Federal Government has decided to regulate our instate products – it is an infringement of our State’s rights to regulate intrastate commerce.

The federal government would like me to pay them to have an inspector to come and look at my 25 chickens – and the federal government really does not approve of free range chickens, because they cannot track them closely enough.

Now, really, why should I ever sell eggs again, if the cost of doing business is raised exponentially for me while commercial growers have no additional costs in the federal regs.

Would you pay $10 for a dozen eggs from free range birds? I don’t think so.

If someone buys from me directly, and they have a problem with an egg, they can sue me, they knew whose chickens laid the eggs. Why involve the federal government? They just want to take more of our money.

Beth Donovan on March 29, 2013 at 4:05 PM