Woman to Rep. Moran: “Why aren’t you pro-choice [on] self-defense for women?”

posted at 8:01 am on March 12, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Good question — which is why Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA) evaded it by complaining about the length of the questions.  Bear in mind that Moran held this townhall meeting specifically to discuss legislative responses to the Newtown shootings; it was titled “Preventing Another Newtown: A Conversation on Gun Violence in America.” If it’s a conversation, shouldn’t Moran be prepared to, y’know, converse?   Instead, Moran refused to address the issue of self-defense for women:

It’s unclear what length of questions he expected.  Perhaps it was something along the lines of “When you gonna grab the guns?”

Note too the loud cheers that erupt when the question is posed.  Clearly, this woman’s concern didn’t come from the fringe, not even among Moran’s constituents.  The question of rape is especially pertinent, since it is primarily a crime of domination and power.  Why wouldn’t we want women to have the ability to change the power equation in these attacks? And while it’s true that a weapon can be turned against its owner, as one woman shouts in near the end, it’s at least as likely that a woman will get killed in a rape as it is that she’ll lose her weapon in a struggle with an attacker.  A properly trained and armed woman would still have  an advantage over an attacker, or at least a fighting chance.

Too bad Rep. Moran is apparently incapable of answering that question.  Maybe he should stop holding townhalls on subjects for which he has little knowledge and spend his time studying up on those issues instead.

Update: Two different readers, my friend and Brad Thor among them, says that the woman is Celia Bigelow.  Katie identified her in her Townhall post.


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Are you seriously arguing that people should be disarmed and public and private criminals empowered above them?

Galt2009 on March 12, 2013 at 11:26 AM

No.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 11:36 AM

Then why are you advocating the taking away of a person’s right of self-defense?

Galt2009 on March 12, 2013 at 12:38 PM

I am no more advocating taking away someone’s right to self-defense than you are advocating that everyone must own a fully auto M1.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 1:10 PM

(I did above at 1:10PM)

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 1:14 PM

NO you didn’t.

Please, don’t insult our intelligence, You want to have the government Unconstitutionally control everyone’s personal property with your call for the precursor to Universal Gun CONFISCATION – Registration.

Clearly you are trying to obfuscate you way out of your contracting yourself.

The ‘Progression’ has always been – control of all gun transactions, then Registration, then CONFISCATION.

So why are you trying to deprive women of the right of self-defense from Public and Private tyranny?

BTW, you can dispense with the superweapon strawman – no one is talking about ‘fully auto M1’s or Abrams tanks or armed drones or aircraft carriers or ICBMs or Particle weapons.

Galt2009 on March 12, 2013 at 1:26 PM

Some of them have a problem hearing “no” because they’re used to women throwing themselves at them, but that’s a very small percentage.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:24 PM

No one claimed it was universal. I might quibble over the definition of “very small percentage” but I doubt either of us has much data.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:26 PM

Jesse Jackson is a nincompoop. I can’t think of a single identifable American “culture” that all Americans share. Television and mass media are probably the biggest thing we have in common, but there are still plenty of Americans who don’t participate.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:18 PM

Yes he is, but we are constantly bombarded by him and others that America has a “racist culture” or “patriarchal culture” or “violent culture” or “materialist culture.” So maybe we’re a bit gun-shy at the term.

Either way, “subculture” (even used when talking about “gay culture”) is much more clear and clarity is always important.

29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 1:27 PM

If she says no twenty times and then says yes once, you think that’s consent, don’t you.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:25 PM

/facepalm

Here’s where a little FEMALE education needs to be applied.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:30 PM

Administrators and other people in positions of responsibility also actively help the “stars” cover up. Wouldn’t want to get the whole program in trouble for a few bad apples, right? Hello, Jerry Sandusky?

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 12:26 PM

You’re talking about an incredibly small number of highly recruited star athletes at a handful of high-profile schools in two sports, Basketball and Football, which is where the NCAA gets basically all of its revenue.

Hundreds of thousands of NCAA student-athletes play less popular sports at less heralded schools and aren’t heavily recruited. You’re talking about the athletes with a future in pro sports, but that’s less than 1% of them. Much less, actually.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:31 PM

Particle weapons.

Galt2009 on March 12, 2013 at 1:26 PM

This includes vomit, so, yeah, particle weapons.

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:31 PM

Here’s where a little FEMALE education needs to be applied.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:30 PM

If your daughter came home from a date and said she tried to fight him off 20 times and couldn’t do it anymore, what would you say?

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:31 PM

If she says no twenty times and then says yes once, you think that’s consent, don’t you.

Yes don’t you? You make “her” a victim and powerless, don’t you? I can tell you that the womyn I’ve dated have been very clear about what was or was NOT acceptable behavior….and had NO problem terminating a date.

So if I ask 20 times, she can say:
1) No 20 times; or
2) Say you ask one more time and you can drop me off at my house.

See choices….we make them….

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 1:32 PM

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:31 PM

And what proportion of on-campus assaults are credited to that small number? My guess is it would exceed their share of the student population. Then there are the hangers-on, the entourages, who want to be like them. It is a real “subculture”.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:33 PM

If your daughter came home from a date and said she tried to fight him off 20 times and couldn’t do it anymore, what would you say?

I’d say she’d been “raped;” again asking and fighting off are TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, always, and you try to conflate thejm…AGAIN.

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 1:33 PM

It’s amazing how much of that can be reinforced by good reading choices, too. So much classic reading reinforces Judeo-Christian morals, chivalry, etc. Instead, so many schools want the kids to read about homosexual parents and eco-terrorists as their literature.

GWB on March 12, 2013 at 1:24 PM

You’re so right. I’m having my boys read Robinson Crusoe. As such I just read it again myself and the introspection and spiritual understandings which the main character experiences are pretty amazing. Also it has given all of us a better understanding of the culture back then rather than reading some modern author’s take on it.

For example, the book was written around 1714 and the way that the author just lays in to the brutal way the Spanish were treating South American Natives and how he just annihilates their justifications for doing so was quite a surprise to me. He says that was it happening in South America makes all Spanish, even those who disagree with it, the shame of all of Europe.

29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 1:33 PM

I’d say she’d been “raped;” again asking and fighting off are TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, always, and you try to conflate thejm…AGAIN.

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 1:33 PM

No. They aren’t different concepts. they are a difference of perspective only.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:34 PM

Then there are the hangers-on, the entourages, who want to be like them. It is a real “subculture”.

And it your opinion that these people and their entourage have NEVER heard of rape or it’s illegality?

Or that if in kindergarten someone had to them about ‘rape”
and how it was illegal, they’d be different today?

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 1:35 PM

If your daughter came home from a date and said she tried to fight him off 20 times and couldn’t do it anymore, what would you say?

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:31 PM

You didn’t say “fight;” You said she said no, and then told him yes. If you told him NO and he kept pressuring her-She should have left. If she had no intention of having sex with him; she shouldn’t have been in a place where he had the option to pressure her in the first place.

If she was fighting him, then there was no yes there; she should have screamed and fought.

Did you not see where I was raped and then almost raped a second time. Both times could have been prevented by ME. I put myself in stupid situations where I was unable to get help and allowed myself to become vulnerable to guys who were able to take advantage of that vulnerability. Does that mean I deserved to be raped, no- but I could have mitigated my circumstance.

Futhermore, my daughter will be prepared in such circumstances..

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:36 PM

No. They aren’t different concepts. they are a difference of perspective only.

Yes they are FIGHTING HIM OFF, means you had to physically resit his advances….TURNING HIM DOWN, means you declined his request.

ONLY in your mind does saying No=some form of wrestling matchh….

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 1:36 PM

I’d say she’d been “raped;” again asking and fighting off are TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS, always, and you try to conflate thejm…AGAIN.

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 1:33 PM

I know– THey keep moving the goal post. Asking/fighting= no difference.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:37 PM

If she says no twenty times and then says yes once, you think that’s consent, don’t you.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:25 PM

If the yes means yes, then its consent. If the yes means no, what planet would we be on?

I question the woman who hangs around to say “no” 20 times.

Regardless of how many times she says no, it means no.

I also question the man who hangs around to hear the word “no” 20 times.

This isn’t the babe of your dreams…move along……move along.

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:37 PM

So why are you trying to deprive women of the right of self-defense from Public and Private tyranny?

BTW, you can dispense with the superweapon strawman – no one is talking about ‘fully auto M1’s or Abrams tanks or armed drones or aircraft carriers or ICBMs or Particle weapons.

Galt2009 on March 12, 2013 at 1:26 PM

I answered you.
Or as much as one can answer what is ultimately a statement.
I find is funny and ironic that you dismiss ‘the super weapon strawman’ while shouting “why are you trying to deprive women of the right of self-defense from Public and Private tyranny!” at me…

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 1:37 PM

Particle weapons.

Galt2009 on March 12, 2013 at 1:26 PM

This includes vomit, so, yeah, particle weapons.

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:31 PM

That may be the exception. :-)

Galt2009 on March 12, 2013 at 1:38 PM

jawkneemusic on March 12, 2013 at 1:18 PM

You’re really bad at this.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 1:40 PM

GWB on March 12, 2013 at 1:24 PM

For example: Kipling! Pretty much every line in this poem is anathema to the left & the public school system.

If

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream – and not make dreams your master;
If you can think – and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on”;

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings – nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run –
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And – which is more – you’ll be a Man my son!

29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 1:40 PM

If the yes means yes, then its consent. If the yes means no, what planet would we be on?

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:37 PM

No meant no, and yet he didn’t stop. No consent.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:41 PM

No meant no, and yet he didn’t stop. No consent.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:41 PM

I feel bad for men. I think I will advise my 14 year old that he will need to get written consent forms before he has sex..

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:44 PM

The whole society does not have to subscribe in order for it to exist.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 12:44 PM

Rape? Or rape “culture”?

If your argument is that rape exists whether or not the rape culture exists, then I agree with you. IMO, rape is a fact of nature. To clarify, what I mean is…stripped of all cultural and civil influences on human behavior, I believe man in his primitive and natural form would engage in rape probably more than we would want to admit.

But…

if your argument is “rape culture” exists whether or not the whole society subscribes, then I tend to disagree. If you are accusing the society of rape culture because there are certain enclaves within our society that ascribe to it, that just doesn’t make sense to me.

What are you saying?

Saltysam on March 12, 2013 at 1:46 PM

You’re really bad at this.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 1:40 PM

Does your mom know you approve of rape over self defense?

jawkneemusic on March 12, 2013 at 1:46 PM

No meant no, and yet he didn’t stop. No consent.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:41 PM

In the question, the sex didn’t occur until after the “yes”.

Consent.

Unless you’re under the assumption that denying a sexual advance, a “no”, also includes an instruction to leave me alone, don’t ever ask me again, and if we ever do end up having sex whether I said “yes” or not, my first response was a no so you’d be raping me.

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:47 PM

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:44 PM

that would at least have the benefit of clarity. Even better: Don’t try to get into a girl’s pants unless you’re in a real relationship. One night stands and college hookups are a ticket to disaster.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:47 PM

No meant no, and yet he didn’t stop. No consent.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:41 PM

So if a woman says no once, you’re never allowed to ask again? What’s the cooldown period?

that would at least have the benefit of clarity. Even better: Don’t try to get into a girl’s pants unless you’re in a real relationship. One night stands and college hookups are a ticket to disaster.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:47 PM

You might not like them morally/ethically, but that doesn’t mean they constitute a rape.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:48 PM

No meant no, and yet he didn’t stop. No consent.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:41 PM

So no means no and yes means no. Got it.

So what if she says no 50 times and the 51st time she says yes, does that still mean now.

Are we talking all on the same date. What if she says no 42 times on the first date and then says no 8 times on the second date and then says no for 14 times and then says yes on the third date. Is that still a no. What if she was smiling when she said yes. Does that mean no?

HumpBot Salvation on March 12, 2013 at 1:49 PM

Both times could have been prevented by ME.

I really respect the guts it must take for you to say this publicly and to use that knowledge to protect your daughters. I wish to heaven that such wretched things had not happened to you, but you sound like a pretty tough lady. Again, brava. :)

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 1:49 PM

One night stands and college hookups are a ticket to disaster.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:47 PM

For who?

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:50 PM

Unless you’re under the assumption that denying a sexual advance, a “no”, also includes an instruction to leave me alone, don’t ever ask me again, and if we ever do end up having sex whether I said “yes” or not, my first response was a no so you’d be raping me.

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:47 PM

No means no. If you keep pushing, you’re not accepting her choice. That is the whole point of rape; not whether you finally got a “yes”, but that you didn’t respect her right to control her own sexuality.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:50 PM

So if a woman says no once, you’re never allowed to ask again? What’s the cooldown period?
Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:48 PM

LOL– Would like to know this too, because it it is date and months than I believe my husband can be accused of rape. He asked A LOT of times before I consented. ;)

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:51 PM

HumpBot Salvation on March 12, 2013 at 1:49 PM

I said it was complicated. This is why ‘respecting her choice’ needs to be taught.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:51 PM

Looks like I missed quite a thread.

kingsjester on March 12, 2013 at 1:52 PM

For who?

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:50 PM

Everybody involved. It’s a shame more people don’t realize this. But you’d think I could at least get buy-in on this on a conservative site.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:53 PM

I see libfreeordie (unlikely) and others have tried to “redefine” the 2nd Amendment and defend the Gun Control crowd.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

They evidently didn’t see the PERIOD at the end of the 2nd Amendment.

I would be ashamed to post such ignorant comments as libfreeordie and others have and show it to the entire world!!!

This is especially for you libfreeordie:

Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

bluefox on March 12, 2013 at 1:53 PM

I really respect the guts it must take for you to say this publicly and to use that knowledge to protect your daughters. I wish to heaven that such wretched things had not happened to you, but you sound like a pretty tough lady. Again, brava. :)

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 1:49 PM

Thank you.. Can’t say that I got there immediately. I went through my nazi man hating liberal feminist stage in my early 20′s where I felt sorry for myself. Thank gosh my conservative husband kept me grounded. And having kids helped. You tend to look at your experience from the outside and how to prevent them from happening to your children and it provides a lot of clarity.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:54 PM

Woman haters, the both of you.
 
jawkneemusic on March 12, 2013 at 1:18 PM

You’re really bad at this.
 
verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 1:40 PM

 
At least he probably thought up his post on his own.

rogerb on March 12, 2013 at 1:54 PM

Does your mom know you approve of rape over self defense?

jawkneemusic on March 12, 2013 at 1:46 PM

Hold on. Let’s find out.

Verbaluce, go ustairs and ask your Mom if she knows that you prefer rape over self-defense.

kingsjester on March 12, 2013 at 1:54 PM

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:50 PM

At what point does culpability attach to the woman for remaining in that situation? Apparently after 20 “no’s”, its clear the guy isn’t the raping type, and he should get some props for that. At the least, he keeps asking instead of taking her, each time she says no he repects that answer and keeps trying.

He’s a slow learner, but not a rapist.

Can you theorize why a woman would let herself be subjected to this onslaught of sexual advances over and over again? When should she just get up and leave?

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:55 PM

Can you theorize why a woman would let herself be subjected to this onslaught of sexual advances over and over again? When should she just get up and leave?

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 1:55 PM

What if she can’t leave? Has no way of getting anywhere, he drove, she doesn’t have a chance to make a phone call. I’m particularly envisioning all 20 “no”s and 1 “yes” happening in the span of an hour or so, and context always matters.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

I LOVE the fact the we are getting lectured by a couple progressive children, who when their own kind get together require RAPE TENTS to be setup. Your side consists of the criminal freaks, not the phony rapes that you manufacture like the Duke lacrosse players, and sure as hell not the average gun owner.

So fvck off…you are not fooling anyone here. All progressives are borderline devolved animals, usually raised by a worthless parent with no hope of rehabilitation.

ClassicCon on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

Everybody involved. It’s a shame more people don’t realize this. But you’d think I could at least get buy-in on this on a conservative site.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:53 PM

Really? I thought we were okay with personal freedom and making our own choices.

If people want to **** like bunnies in college, that’s their prerogative. And if it makes people respect them less, oh well.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

What if she can’t leave? Has no way of getting anywhere, he drove, she doesn’t have a chance to make a phone call. I’m particularly envisioning all 20 “no”s and 1 “yes” happening in the span of an hour or so, and context always matters.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

That is why the education of girls matter. Never put yourself in the situation where you can’t leave. Just a thought.

Girl power and all that.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 1:59 PM

What if she can’t leave? Has no way of getting anywhere, he drove, she doesn’t have a chance to make a phone call. I’m particularly envisioning all 20 “no”s and 1 “yes” happening in the span of an hour or so, and context always matters.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

Well then, she should probably just keep saying “no.”

If 20 ‘no’s’ didn’t turn Mr. X into a rapist, I don’t think a 21st ‘no’ is going to be any different.

That’s our point: Most men aren’t rapists. But we’re not automatons, either. If we hear “yes,” we’re going to consider that consent. But if we don’t get consent, we’re going to respect that choice.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:59 PM

This is why Always very “sensitive” position is so flawed, though I doubt we’ll get an admission of it….

ASSUMING you aren’t a “Liberal” you have bought into some Liberal premises, and that’s your undoing….that having sex is rape, somehow, UNLESS the woman initiates it…That women are both simultaneously very strong and powerless…

Now talking is RAPE….Pleading is RAPE….asking=physically forcing yourself on the woman, because she, the poor dear, cannot say NO….

Stick with a more “conventional” definition and you’ll do better….I hit you, threaten to hit you, get you massively drunk or roofie you or state or state in such a manner that a reasonable person might believe that there would be negative influences on my career or my husband/wife’s career if you did not have sex with me….and you’ve got “rape.”

Let’s say you are a guy, we’ll call you Roman…and you slip a Quaalude into a 13 y.o.’s glass of wine and then have not-normal intercourse with her….well that’s “rape.” It’s even Rape-Rape, a legal term of art….now if she’s 31 and I ask her 10 times and on number 10 she says “yes” w/o any Quaaludes or violence or discussions about how her career could take off OR tank…well that’s not “rape.” And ONLY Andrea Dworkin might consider it such….Andrea and apparently you, Always….

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 1:59 PM

Really? I thought we were okay with personal freedom and making our own choices.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

We have personal freedom because people are willing to be moral. If there were no morals, “personal freedom” would mean anarchy.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Everybody involved. It’s a shame more people don’t realize this. But you’d think I could at least get buy-in on this on a conservative site.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:53 PM

Trying not too get personal here, but if you had a bad experience that doesn’t mean everyone does, or will.

Psst….conservatives have sex too. We generally pay for our birth control, and consider birth control a personal responsibility, not an entitlement. And when BC doesn’t work we, generally, take our punishment like adults.

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 2:00 PM

But if we don’t get consent, we’re going to respect that choice.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:59 PM

I’m not speaking of “you”, or men in general. In my example, the “no” wasn’t respected.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:01 PM

You tend to look at your experience from the outside and how to prevent them from happening to your children and it provides a lot of clarity.

Yep, kids are ruthless that way. :)

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 2:02 PM

We have personal freedom because people are willing to be moral. If there were no morals, “personal freedom” would mean anarchy.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Two people having consensual sex outside of marriage isn’t anarchy.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Sex is not immoral. Sex in the modern single world is complicated and can be conducted in an immoral fashion. Sex in a committed relationship is not complicated and not terribly problematic from a social standpoint, whether you do it a lot or a little. don’t make presumptions about where I’m coming from.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

melle, It would be nice if men were as nervous about the potential to be accused of rape (and accordingly regulated their behavior) as women are about being raped.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

Sex is not immoral.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

Context matters.

Saltysam on March 12, 2013 at 2:04 PM

What if she can’t leave? Has no way of getting anywhere, he drove, she doesn’t have a chance to make a phone call. I’m particularly envisioning all 20 “no”s and 1 “yes” happening in the span of an hour or so, and context always matters.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

What if she can?

Double amputee without her chair? Lets assume he also set up the entire scenario by driving to a carefully chosen spot where cell phones don’t work.

You didn’t answer my question, so I’ll ask it again:

Can you theorize why a woman would let herself be subjected to this onslaught of sexual advances over and over again? When should she just get up and leave?

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Two people having consensual sex outside of marriage isn’t anarchy.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

No, living life without morals or laws is anarchy. If the sex is truly “consensual”, then no it;’s not a problem. The whole point here is that “consent” is tricky.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:04 PM

If people want to **** like bunnies in college, that’s their prerogative. And if it makes people respect them less, oh well.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

As long as I dont have to pay for your birth control…and you don’t whine if I do tihnk less of you…But by “thinking less of you” I would not believe that being thrown onto a pool table whilst being violated in any way was NOT wrong even if you had had lotsa sex with different people prior to that night.

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Can you theorize why a woman would let herself be subjected to this onslaught of sexual advances over and over again? When should she just get up and leave?

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 2:04 PM

I did. I “theorized” that she couldn’t “just get up and leave”.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:05 PM

melle, It would be nice if men were as nervous about the potential to be accused of rape (and accordingly regulated their behavior) as women are about being raped.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

I think it is a mixed bag. Some men are very conscious about it. Just as some woman are very naive and stupid about the possibility of it. I hate absolutes. Great to see you back. I don’t often agree with you, but I do enjoy the opposing viewpoint.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 2:06 PM

Fine. It would then make sense for law schools to stop teaching the common law definition. I assumed since I had to answer the question on the bar exam, it was law somewhere. Instead it’s just more evidence that US legal education is completely pointless.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 12:40 PM

Then, you do not understand the concept of common law.

Resist We Much on March 12, 2013 at 2:06 PM

The stupid is out in force, again.

Leftists hate women and their liberties.

“Just teach men not to rape” said a female commenter on Fox a few days ago. There! You fools just don’t get it. It’s that simple!

Schadenfreude on March 12, 2013 at 2:06 PM

Context matters.

Saltysam on March 12, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Indeed…

context always matters.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 1:57 PM

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:06 PM

I did. I “theorized” that she couldn’t “just get up and leave”.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:05 PM

Why are you theorizing the woman in the weakest possible position. And where is she that she can’t get out the car and use her legs?

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 2:07 PM

melle, It would be nice if men were as nervous about the potential to be accused of rape (and accordingly regulated their behavior) as women are about being raped.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

RAPE TENTS….RAPE TENTS…RAPE TENTS…

Oh and ask Duke lacrosse players about fake rape accusations…

ClassicCon on March 12, 2013 at 2:07 PM

I’m not speaking of “you”, or men in general. In my example, the “no” wasn’t respected.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:01 PM

But I think most men are like me, for multiple reasons.

I mean, for the most part, we’re moral creatures. We don’t want to rape or steal or kill or cheat or lie because we’d rather do the right thing. Personally, I know I take great pains to never come across like I’m using my physicality to get my way with a woman.

Plus, we know the society we’re living in. We saw the Duke Lacrosse case. We know that if we’re not careful we can be accused of rape for being fast-and-loose with getting consent, and it can ruin our lives.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 2:08 PM

RWM, are you a lawyer or a very good self-taught legal mind? You’re doing an excellent job teaching and hunting gnats.

Schadenfreude on March 12, 2013 at 2:08 PM

Then, you do not understand the concept of common law.

Resist We Much on March 12, 2013 at 2:06 PM

That it applies where not abrogated by statute? I think I have that down fine. If it’s been abrogated everywhere, stop teaching it. Make your common law point with some other area of law than criminal rape.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:08 PM

You’re really bad at this.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 1:40 PM

Does your mom know you approve of rape over self defense?

jawkneemusic on March 12, 2013 at 1:46 PM

Like, REALLY bad.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Always you’re not “on” about Rape, you’re upset by the Sexual Revolution…and you want to put the Sexual Genie back in the bottle via Rape and Fear of Rape and the Fear of the Consequences of Being Accused of Rape…

“IF everyone were paralyzed with the fear of this ‘rape’ word, there wouldn’t be so much promiscuous sex.”

That’s my read on you….

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Why are you theorizing the woman in the weakest possible position. And where is she that she can’t get out the car and use her legs?

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Who said she’s in a car? And of course I theorized her in the weakest possible position, the question asked me to theorize and imagining an extreme is a standard method of doing so.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:10 PM

I’m not sure what happened to the thread. We were discussing the liberal point of view that women shouldn’t be allowed to protect themselves from rape and instead rely on the teachers union.

Not sure how this side discussion of when is sex considered rape really matters here. After all, let’s face it… if you are Roman Pulanski, it’s never rape. And the liberals cheer when you rape someone….

Vanceone on March 12, 2013 at 2:10 PM

Like, REALLY bad.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 2:09 PM

RAPE TENTS!

ClassicCon on March 12, 2013 at 2:11 PM

“consent” is tricky.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Well, I certainly seemed to manage around that. ;)

Seriously, though…

Most, if not all, scenarios presented involve verbal consent. I’m getting on in age, but I remember my youthful days. Verbal consent was usually NOT the norm.

Activity happened.

Saltysam on March 12, 2013 at 2:11 PM

melle, It would be nice if men were as nervous about the potential to be accused of rape (and accordingly regulated their behavior) as women are about being raped.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

Most of us are. I’ve never done the “drunk hook-up” thing for exactly that reason; I know that even if everything seemed right in the moment, I could later be accused of rape.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 2:11 PM

Always you’re not “on” about Rape, you’re upset by the Sexual Revolution…and you want to put the Sexual Genie back in the bottle via Rape and Fear of Rape and the Fear of the Consequences of Being Accused of Rape…

“IF everyone were paralyzed with the fear of this ‘rape’ word, there wouldn’t be so much promiscuous sex.”

That’s my read on you….

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 2:09 PM

I agree with her about the Sexual Revolution, but again to a large degree that is WOMEN’s responsibility. We are and have always been the gate keepers to sex. The sexual revolution would go back in the bottle if we stopped giving it away like candy.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 2:11 PM

I did. I “theorized” that she couldn’t “just get up and leave”.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:05 PM

So all rapes are pre-planned events, where the man controls every facet and has removed any avenue of escape, and merely waits out his victim by wearing her down with repeated requests for sex until she finally gives in even though she doesn’t want to.

I find your opinion of men lacking.

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 2:11 PM

Vanceone on March 12, 2013 at 2:10 PM

After all, it wasn’t “rape” rape. – Whoopi Goldberg

kingsjester on March 12, 2013 at 2:11 PM

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 2:08 PM

Those people are therefore not part of a “rape culture” or “rape subculture” and are irrelevant to this conversation.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:12 PM

So all rapes are pre-planned events, where the man controls every facet and has removed any avenue of escape, and merely waits out his victim by wearing her down with repeated requests for sex until she finally gives in even though she doesn’t want to.

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 2:11 PM

Of course “all rapes” aren’t like that. Some are.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Like, REALLY bad.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 2:09 PM

I’ll take that as a no. You really should seek some help. Not very healthy to hate woman the way you do.

jawkneemusic on March 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM

Looks like I missed quite a thread.

kingsjester on March 12, 2013 at 1:52 PM

I’ve been busy at home and haven’t been posting much although researching. I just checked this thread out to see why it had over 200 comments:-)

bluefox on March 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM

Who said she’s in a car? And of course I theorized her in the weakest possible position, the question asked me to theorize and imagining an extreme is a standard method of doing so.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:10 PM

You said in one of your posts “what if he drove.” Where is she if she can’t leave? He obviously isn’t holding her against her will, because then this wouldn’t be rape, it would be kidnapping.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM

The sexual revolution would go back in the bottle if we stopped giving it away like candy.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 2:11 PM

I don’t know if it would go away but it would certainly be progress. We got absolutely nothing out of the sexual revolution.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM

So to sum up, Libfree and Verbaluce don’t think womenz need/deserve the right to choose whether to be armed or not and Always seems convinced that wonenz is being raped via being asked for sex…..and that we need more education in order to prevent all this “raping.”

JFKY on March 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM

Those people are therefore not part of a “rape culture” or “rape subculture” and are irrelevant to this conversation.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:12 PM

If most men aren’t part of the “rape culture,” then why are we harping on it? There will always be people who don’t respect society and don’t think the rules apply to them. One of them is currently in the White House.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 2:14 PM

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM

I was imagining a private party at someone’s house or other domicile.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:14 PM

I don’t know if it would go away but it would certainly be progress. We got absolutely nothing out of the sexual revolution.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:13 PM

Now, that I agree with you.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 2:16 PM

If most men aren’t part of the “rape culture,” then why are we harping on it? There will always be people who don’t respect society and don’t think the rules apply to them. One of them is currently in the White House.

Good Solid B-Plus on March 12, 2013 at 2:14 PM

Sigh.

It started because someone said there was no such thing as “rape culture”. there is. It has now been established that it should be termed “rape subculture” because we all agreed most people don’t belong to it.

When you have to explain the argument, maybe it’s time to give up… but that doesn’t mean I gave in. :)

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:16 PM

rogerb on March 12, 2013 at 1:54 PM

Friend,
Your collecting and misusing of previous comments is as pointless as it is annoying (and should be too time consuming for you, but…)
I made an effort with you recently at a substantive back and forth. But no reciprocation on that…just same ‘ole schtick.
So I gotta say bye to you…as I did to kingjester.
You won’t hear from me again (though like KJ, I’m sure I’ll keep hearing from you).
Best of luck to you.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Look, I just want an answer from libfreeordie or verbaluce… What’s a better defense against rape: A sig sauer or your 65 year old teacher in 4th grade who can teach “sex ed” to the boyz?

Why are liberals such as yourself so determined that women should not be able to defend themselves?

I do not expect you to answer, since it reveals your fundamental dishonesty and the fact that yes, liberals view some level of rape and other violence against women (and men, too, don’t forget) as the price to pay for their utopia.

But it would be nice if you would answer that simple question.

Vanceone on March 12, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Page Five of the thread and still no answer to my question.

Does this woman have a right to choose to arm herself?

Yes or no?

CurtZHP on March 12, 2013 at 2:17 PM

The whole point here is that “consent” is tricky.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Wow. You don’t get out much, do you? I’m female. Consent isn’t tricky at all. If I say no 20 times and on request 21 I say yes, I’ve consented. As someone said, if 20 nos haven’t turned our guy into a rapist, a 21st no isn’t going to change things. At that point it’s merely a question of who can out-wait who. If, on the other hand, some physical or psychological force is being applied to me (or I’m rendered unconscious to make my consent or lack thereof non-existent) to change my 21st no into a yes, NOW you’re talking rape.

totherightofthem on March 12, 2013 at 2:18 PM

I was imagining a private party at someone’s house or other domicile.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:14 PM

Ah…now, I’ll ask again, with some clarification:

Can you theorize why a woman would let herself be subjected to this onslaught of sexual advances over and over again? When should she just get up and leave?

How many “no’s” does the man deserve before she has had enough?

BobMbx on March 12, 2013 at 2:18 PM

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 2:17 PM

What a pompous jackwagon statement.Of course, it was expected. At home, when your Mom makes you mad, you probably hold your fingers in your eyes, shouting “Lalalalala…I can’t hear you!”And then. you return to the basement.

kingsjester on March 12, 2013 at 2:20 PM

No…that just because of the Coachella fest coming up.
200,000 stoned and hungry techno ravers and indie rock hippies.
Store shelves will be bare. Especially the snack aisles.

verbaluce on March 12, 2013 at 12:47 PM

Since when did they start naming earthquakes like hurricanes? Will there be a Woodstock Earthquake in the future? How about a Glastonbury Earthquake?

Resist We Much on March 12, 2013 at 2:21 PM

When you have to explain the argument, maybe it’s time to give up…

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:16 PM

No…it means your premise is convoluted, and clarification is necessary to build on an idea/argument. It’s usually best to blame yourself for poor communication rather than others for not understanding.

Sorry, I know that sounds preachy, but c’mon.

Saltysam on March 12, 2013 at 2:21 PM

“ears’. Although, eyes works as well. It’s a funnier image.

kingsjester on March 12, 2013 at 2:21 PM

Sex is not immoral. Sex in the modern single world is complicated and can be conducted in an immoral fashion. Sex in a committed relationship is not complicated and not terribly problematic from a social standpoint, whether you do it a lot or a little. don’t make presumptions about where I’m coming from.

alwaysfiredup on March 12, 2013 at 2:03 PM

Whether sex is immoral or not depends on what Standard you use.
God’s or man’s. If man’s then man does whatever is right in his own eyes.

bluefox on March 12, 2013 at 2:21 PM

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