Woman to Rep. Moran: “Why aren’t you pro-choice [on] self-defense for women?”

posted at 8:01 am on March 12, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Good question — which is why Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA) evaded it by complaining about the length of the questions.  Bear in mind that Moran held this townhall meeting specifically to discuss legislative responses to the Newtown shootings; it was titled “Preventing Another Newtown: A Conversation on Gun Violence in America.” If it’s a conversation, shouldn’t Moran be prepared to, y’know, converse?   Instead, Moran refused to address the issue of self-defense for women:

It’s unclear what length of questions he expected.  Perhaps it was something along the lines of “When you gonna grab the guns?”

Note too the loud cheers that erupt when the question is posed.  Clearly, this woman’s concern didn’t come from the fringe, not even among Moran’s constituents.  The question of rape is especially pertinent, since it is primarily a crime of domination and power.  Why wouldn’t we want women to have the ability to change the power equation in these attacks? And while it’s true that a weapon can be turned against its owner, as one woman shouts in near the end, it’s at least as likely that a woman will get killed in a rape as it is that she’ll lose her weapon in a struggle with an attacker.  A properly trained and armed woman would still have  an advantage over an attacker, or at least a fighting chance.

Too bad Rep. Moran is apparently incapable of answering that question.  Maybe he should stop holding townhalls on subjects for which he has little knowledge and spend his time studying up on those issues instead.

Update: Two different readers, my friend and Brad Thor among them, says that the woman is Celia Bigelow.  Katie identified her in her Townhall post.


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If Moran will not answer the question, one can safely assume that he is anti-choice and doesn’t want to admit it publicly.

gryphon202 on March 12, 2013 at 8:04 AM

Just lift your skirt and think of Barack.

CDeb on March 12, 2013 at 8:04 AM

When the Founders wrote the Second Amendment, rapists only carried muskets and knives!

CDeb on March 12, 2013 at 8:07 AM

C’mon lady. Just shoot couple rounds from a double barrel off the back porch. Problem solved.

iceman1960 on March 12, 2013 at 8:10 AM

It’s a pattern with this guy: Jim Moran: How Not to Respond to Domestic Violence

forest on March 12, 2013 at 8:11 AM

Bear in mind that Moran held this townhall meeting specifically to discuss legislative responses to the Newtown shootings; it was titled “Preventing Another Newtown: A Conversation on Gun Violence in America.”

Speaking of which, how about we censor legitimate enterprises that we disagree with?:

(CNSNews.com) — Senator Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) urged NASCAR CEO Brian France to not take sides in the national gun control debate following the Newtown massacre, and to reconsider a sponsorship deal with the National Rifle Association (NRA) for the upcoming NRA 500 race in Texas.

From “one Moran” to another……..

Rovin on March 12, 2013 at 8:14 AM

…which is why Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA) evaded it by complaining about the length of the questions.

What length was Moron looking for, to have the questions confined down to “Who?-What-Where?-When?-Why?-How?”?

pilamaye on March 12, 2013 at 8:14 AM

He’s one of theirs.Has she been Palinized yet?

docflash on March 12, 2013 at 8:15 AM

It’s a pattern with this guy: Jim Moran: How Not to Respond to Domestic Violence

forest on March 12, 2013 at 8:11 AM

That came immediately to mind when I saw the headline. Moran (and his loathsome son) are pro-violence against women. Ergo, anti-self-defense for women.

Bitter Clinger on March 12, 2013 at 8:17 AM

I’m sure he wanted to say something like this;

Government must have a monopoly of force. That is the nature of a properly-run society. With that monopoly of force, government can ensure social justice. You and I know what that term means, so there is no need to define it.

You have no need to ‘defend yourself’, because in a properly-run society no one will be able to harm you, except government. And we will only do so if it is expedient for us to do so.

If someone else violates this paradigm, we will not recognize the fact, because it contradicts our construct. You will just have to accept that you are a sacrifice to our Cause, which is far more important than your safety or your life.

Note I said that he almost certainly wanted to say it. Not that he was a big enough damned fool to actually do so in public.

In private, with his “like-minded enlightened” friends, I’m sure it’s a different story. Especially when they are surrounded by their hired bodyguards.

clear ether

eon

eon on March 12, 2013 at 8:17 AM

Progressives are really NO-CHOICE!

32 ounce Soda?……..mmmm, sorry you don’t get that one.

Earbuds?…….ask Mayor Bloomberg what he wants to do.

Shower heads that spray more than .000001 gpm, mmmm no.

Driving your own car without seat belts on……check how your incremental “volunteer” laws started on that one.

Having a private sector trash carrier pick up your trash if you want more than once a week pickup?….no, illegal!!

Your own private health insurance in 2015?…….good luck with that.

A gun clip so you won’t have to reload in the dark if someone breaks into your house in Colorado?….nope.

The right of millions of little babies to breathe freedom in this world……..BWWWHHHHAAA, no!

Choice?………..mmmm, not so much.

Welcome to the Progressive States of America.

PappyD61 on March 12, 2013 at 8:20 AM

Democrats: he’s one of YOURS… a poster boy for idiocy…

The people of Northern Virginia deserve him… they keep REELECTING HIM…

Enjoy him for ANOTHER FULL TERM!!

Khun Joe on March 12, 2013 at 8:28 AM

Scumbag.

Bruce MacMahon on March 12, 2013 at 8:29 AM

A victim might have her gun taken. But without one, something else from her surely will be. The ‘reasoning’ of these gun-grabbing liberals is astounding.

Moran is typical of the breed: A coward. I guess he can afford to be with Capitol Police keeping him safe. I’d also like to know how many firearms he has, what makes/models, and if he’ll surrender any that are on DiFi’s hit list.

What a coward.

Liam on March 12, 2013 at 8:32 AM

I’m in Moran’s district. He is and always has been a woman hater.

crash72 on March 12, 2013 at 8:33 AM

Didn’t Moran’s delightful son beat up his girlfriend?

Illinidiva on March 12, 2013 at 8:34 AM

Whenever we mention what happened in Newton, we should also mention the school was a gun free zone. The most plausible way to prevent another Newton is to let some people who work at school carry if they wish.

Of course, I am well aware of the insane leftist response to this. They claim giving people permission to carry is a requirement that teachers carry. They seem to literally believe that whatever is permitted is required.

thuja on March 12, 2013 at 8:35 AM

Come on. It’s Jim Moran. Logic to this man = pearls before swine.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 8:38 AM

eon on March 12, 2013 at 8:17 AM

.
That’ll be about enough TRUTH outta you.

listens2glenn on March 12, 2013 at 8:40 AM

Rep Moran has always been a strong supporter of the Brady Campaign and it’s viewpoints.

Plus, if a woman can defend herself with deadly force then it puts his woman beating son at risk.

Spade on March 12, 2013 at 8:45 AM

He’s too blind to see his own hypocrisy.

Kissmygrits on March 12, 2013 at 8:49 AM

A victim might have her gun taken. But without one, something else from her surely will be.

When will conservatives stop peddling these lies? Most rape victims were assaulted by someone they know or even were on a date with. How is a gun supposed to help in that situation? As Zerlina Maxwell so eloquently put, are women really going to be able to make the split second decision to shoot and kill someone they had trusted? If we took the gun culture solution to rape to its logical conclusion we would re-enter a world where women would not be able to have casual friendships with members of the opposite sex. How else to be able to be *sure* that one could shoot and kill if attacked?

That’s the really ugly underside to what conservatives are envisioning as the solution to rape. That is isn’t about giving guns to women to liberate them, this is about putting the onus on stopping rape on women and defacto regulating women’s behavior. Saying a woman “should have had a gun” is no less victim blaming than saying a woman “should’ve have been dressed that way” or “she shouldn’t have been flirting.” When on earth will conservatives admit that the problem with rape in this society is not what women do, it is what’s wrong with MEN. What lessons have men been taught that makes a significant number of them feel they can force themselves on women they take on a few dates or who is kind to them? Since rapists cut across every race, class and geographic bracket there really is some larger cultural issue at play here. When will conservatives own up to it.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 8:50 AM

Outside of the NOVA bubble, we call him Jim Moron.

College Prof on March 12, 2013 at 8:50 AM

When will conservatives stop peddling these lies? Most rape victims were assaulted by someone they know or even were on a date with. How is a gun supposed to help in that situation? As Zerlina Maxwell so eloquently put, are women really going to be able to make the split second decision to shoot and kill someone they had trusted? If we took the gun culture solution to rape to its logical conclusion we would re-enter a world where women would not be able to have casual friendships with members of the opposite sex. How else to be able to be *sure* that one could shoot and kill if attacked?

That’s the really ugly underside to what conservatives are envisioning as the solution to rape. That is isn’t about giving guns to women to liberate them, this is about putting the onus on stopping rape on women and defacto regulating women’s behavior. Saying a woman “should have had a gun” is no less victim blaming than saying a woman “should’ve have been dressed that way” or “she shouldn’t have been flirting.” When on earth will conservatives admit that the problem with rape in this society is not what women do, it is what’s wrong with MEN. What lessons have men been taught that makes a significant number of them feel they can force themselves on women they take on a few dates or who is kind to them? Since rapists cut across every race, class and geographic bracket there really is some larger cultural issue at play here. When will conservatives own up to it.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 8:50 AM

The babbling continues.

Bitter Clinger on March 12, 2013 at 8:54 AM

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 8:50 AM

Wow. Um, that would be called a sexist statement there, dingbat. So, do you recommend that all men be castrated? Indoctrinated in a “How Not to Rape a Woman” class?

You know how people like you always argue about Christian conservatives trying to legislate morality? Pot meet kettle. Every sane person knows that no matter how hard you try to suppress it, evil does persist in this world, and because of that we must defend ourselves against it. Moral men know that it is wrong to force themselves on a woman; however, a woman should have the right to defend herself against immoral men…because there always will be immoral men in this world.

ICBMMan on March 12, 2013 at 9:02 AM

@libfreeordie – it’s cute how y’all keep thinking criminals will straighten up and fly right if we just EXPLAIN IT ALL TO THEM.

Out here in the real world, women need the option of protecting themselves from physical threats.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 9:07 AM

Wow. Um, that would be called a sexist statement there, dingbat. So, do you recommend that all men be castrated? Indoctrinated in a “How Not to Rape a Woman” class?

You’re a piece of work. Let’s review how rape became part of the public discourse in recent months. The Newtown shooting happens, a massive push for gun control begins to sweep the country and then conservative gun advocates begin to suggest that gun control would take women’s ability to defend against a sexual assault away from them. That’s how this conversation started. Assuming that conservatives are being honest in their desire to curb rape (instead of disgustingly cynical) then they really can not cut off the conversation about rape in our society beyond “just give women a gun.”

Why? Because the scenario conservatives paint of sexual assault does not match the reality that most rape victims experience. Its not some strange criminal who attacks you on a dark alley out of the blue. The vast majority of sexual assault occurs with someone you know, maybe even someone you trust. Like should women carry a gun with them in their purse at all times? Should they warn dates they have a gun with them before the date begins? Should they travel in packs? If all of the onus on intervening against rape is on women and the use of a firearm then conservatives should be willing to take into account the FACT that most women are not sexually assaulted by a stranger.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:08 AM

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 8:50 AM

So you’re basically saying that w woman is incapable of overriding her emotions long enough to want to protect herself? And that she shouldn’t have the right to use any means necessary to protect herself?

Thanks a lot for nothing.

chelie on March 12, 2013 at 9:10 AM

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 8:50 AM

There seems to be a right to own a firearm in this country. This right is an inconvenience for your world view. Fine, that is your opinion. If a woman wants to own a firearm to make her feel safe then it is not in your place to deny her that no matter what you think. There are certain rights in our society that belong to the individual and the attempts at swaying majority opinion to the contrary do not change that. I don’t see it as conservatives giving guns to women to liberate them. However, with you being a liberal I understand where you would get that collectivist notion. As a conservative I believe this woman has the individual right to choose to own a firearm. If you find her reason for doing so inscrutable too bad for you. If she doesn’t want to own a firearm then so be it but it is her right to decide for herself.

DaveDief on March 12, 2013 at 9:10 AM

When on earth will conservatives admit that the problem with rape in this society is not what women do, it is what’s wrong with MEN.
libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 8:50 AM

You mean like you filth that lie about the protection of children as your faux cause to disarm law-abiding citizens? Since most violent crime with guns are perpetrated by young BLACK MEN then how about you scumbags address that issue? You lying sack of sh1t.

ClassicCon on March 12, 2013 at 9:12 AM

@libfreeordie – it’s cute how y’all keep thinking criminals will straighten up and fly right if we just EXPLAIN IT ALL TO THEM.

It’s cute how you think hyperbole and exaggeration are effective tactics in a debate. No one is arguing that any one solution can solve all of sexual assaults. The point is that there are groups and organizations who devote all of their energy to intervening against a culture which promotes rape and with proven success. Gun advocates entry into the epidemic of sexual assault in this country via gun policy debate is cynical, dishonest and transparent. No one on the right is even willing to talk about the actual stats on sexual assault. How is a gun supposed to help if you’ve been given a date rape drug for example? How is a gun supposed ot help a girl at a frat party or when she’s with the campus athletic star? Or cornered by a family member? You all have this totally nuts wild wild west fantasy. In actual reality, sexual assault doesn’t look the way you imagine it.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:13 AM

PappyD61 on March 12, 2013 at 8:20 AM

And don’t forget: they don’t trust us with plastic shopping bags either.

Hat Trick on March 12, 2013 at 9:13 AM

Just pee on yourself, lady, duh; this isn’t that tough to figure out.

Bishop on March 12, 2013 at 9:13 AM

If all of the onus on intervening against rape is on women and the use of a firearm then conservatives should be willing to take into account the FACT that most women are not sexually assaulted by a stranger.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:08 AM

You’ll want to concentrate on that word “most” in there.

Bishop on March 12, 2013 at 9:15 AM

The babbling continues.

Bitter Clinger on March 12, 2013 at 8:54 AM

.
More often than not it’s ‘hyperboleordie.’ Nothing it writes is relevant beyond the little subculture of its own devising.

ExpressoBold on March 12, 2013 at 9:18 AM

So you’re basically saying that w woman is incapable of overriding her emotions long enough to want to protect herself?

As usual, the right misunderstands feminism and misunderstands sexism. I think most people, men or women would have a difficult time shooting a friend, co-worker or loved one who unexpectedly turned violent. I think humans have a hard time dealing with their emotions. You assume that I exclude that analysis to women because YOU’RE sexist, that’s not my issue. As I pointed out on the women in combat posts, most humans are also not fit for warfare which is why PTSD is not limited to female combatants. So no, I am not saying woman are “incapable” of anything. I am saying that the sole focus on guns as the only defense against sexual assault puts the responsibility for dealing with rape in our society on women. Its victim-blaming, plain and simple.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:18 AM

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:13 AM

Dishonest, straw-man argument. I said women need the option of protecting themselves from physical threats. You have no right to take away that option, so stop trying.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 9:19 AM

In actual reality, sexual assault doesn’t look the way you imagine it.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:13 AM

Hearing a progressive neo-comm want to talk about facts is actually making me belly laugh. Do you want me to list some reality that doesn’t look the way YOU imagine it?

Since you seem to be suddenly concerned with statistical data how about you address obscenely disproportionate black crime, your sides creation of a hyper-sexualized society, rape statistics when it comes to abortion, destruction of the traditional family unit…

You created this culture of rape…you are your worthless sixty’s generation parents or most likely parent in your case. To quote one of your rapist heroes…”You may wanna put some ice on that…”

ClassicCon on March 12, 2013 at 9:20 AM

There are a lot of Democrats I disagree with and then there are guys like Moran. Moran is the classic example of a real jerk. Not only does he disagree with you but he can’t even discuss the idea. Guys like him always give you the impression they’re looking down their nose at you. 2 examples, Jim Moran and Chris VanHollen, both of whom make my point.

bflat879 on March 12, 2013 at 9:21 AM

Just so we are clear.

2/3% of rapes were committed by someone the victim knew.

The other 1/3 are just chit out of luck…because libtards think they are too stupid to have a gun.

More than 50% of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occured within 1 mile of their home or at their home.2

4 in 10 take place at the victim’s home.
2 in 10 take place at the home of a friend, neighbor, or relative.
1 in 12 take place in a parking garage.

mmmm all places that having a gun might come in handy.

Rapists are more likely to be a serial criminal than a serial rapist.

46% of rapists who were released from prison were re-arrested within 3 years of their release for another crime.

18.6% for a violent offense.
14.8% for a property offense.
11.2% for a drug offense.
20.5% for a public-order offense

mmm yep, that sure seems to be a cultural problem. Nope, actually it seems like a individual problem.

HumpBot Salvation on March 12, 2013 at 9:22 AM

Since most violent crime with guns are perpetrated by young BLACK MEN then how about you scumbags address that issue? You lying sack of sh1t.

ClassicCon on March 12, 2013 at 9:12 AM

How is this relevant to a conversation about the causes and solutions to rape in this country? Or did you just have an irrepressible urge to belch out something negative about black men?

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:22 AM

Like should women carry a gun with them in their purse at all times?

Sure, why not?

Should they warn dates they have a gun with them before the date begins?

Of course not, because if a guy intends rape, he keeps the advantage in knowing if his potential victim is armed.

Who are you trying to protect out there, liblet–women or rapists? Do you seriously think all women being disarmed will decrease rapes? It doesn’t matter whether the victim knows her attacker, because that works for him in court; the rapist can claim the event was consensual.

The onus for self-protection is always on the person who might be victimized, like the guy walking alone at night in a bad neighborhood. In cases of rape, a woman needs to protect herself unless her daddy goes on dates with her. Further, what about rapes in marriage? Who is going to take responsibility for the woman’s safety–you? Pffft!

Your criminal-coddling ‘argument’ falls apart at its very base. You make only assumptions without a shred of proof, just because you’re an idiot who leans Left.

Want rape rates to go down? Let every woman be armed and, after a few shootings of intended rapists, many such criminals might think twice. There will always be a core who prone to take high risk, and Man will never be rid of such vermin. Better they be shot by their first victim than for it to finally happen with the fourth.

Liam on March 12, 2013 at 9:22 AM

As Zerlina Maxwell so eloquently put, are women really going to be able to make the split second decision to shoot and kill someone they had trusted?

That isn’t the decision. The decision is whether or not to be raped. The rapist gets to make a choice too, whether or not that piece of ass they’re looking to take is worth dying for.

If all of the onus on intervening against rape is on women and the use of a firearm then conservatives should be willing to take into account the FACT that most women are not sexually assaulted by a stranger.

So what? If you know your rapist, are you just supposed to lie back and think of England? You can’t threaten (or take) the life of a rapist you’re acquainted with? That’s just silly.

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 9:24 AM

I said women need the option of protecting themselves from physical threats. You have no right to take away that option, so stop trying.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 9:19 AM

Some women do feel they need that option. What concerns me, and I think if you were honest you would admit that I am correct, is that the right’s interest in rape would disappear *instantly* if there was no threat to gun ownership from the Democrats. There’d be no segments on Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh about rape. Or if they were they would probably look like this delightful segment from Bill O’Reilly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkrMVwWAn3M

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:26 AM

Most rape victims were assaulted by someone they know or even were on a date with. How is a gun supposed to help in that situation?

MOST, not all. You conveniently dismiss those situations that a gun WOULD prevent a rape and/or murder because it doesn’t fit with your narrative. People like you were wringing your hands exclaiming “We need more gun control. If it would save just one person…..”. Well, I guess it doesn’t apply here, huh? I’d like to turn it around on you. If a woman prevents her rape and/or murder due to the mere fact that she had a weapon, isn’t that a good thing? If possessing a weapon would save just one person…..

Zooid on March 12, 2013 at 9:27 AM

46% of rapists who were released from prison were re-arrested within 3 years of their release for another crime.

How many men are actually incarcerated for rape vs. the number of sexual assaults reported in this country. At least be honest in your citation of figures.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:29 AM

The other 1/3 are just chit out of luck…because libtards think they are too stupid to have a gun.

HumpBot Salvation on March 12, 2013 at 9:22 AM

Women will just have to make sure they are raped by someone they know.

Jeebus…why do I have to explain EVERYTHING around here for you simpletons.

Bishop on March 12, 2013 at 9:31 AM

What concerns me, and I think if you were honest you would admit that I am correct, is that the right’s interest in rape would disappear *instantly* if there was no threat to gun ownership from the Democrats.

Assertion monkey asserts! What concerns me, and I think if you were honest you would admit that I am correct, is that you’re pulling your “facts” out of your @$$.

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 9:32 AM

that the right’s interest in rape would disappear *instantly* if there was no threat to gun ownership from the Democrats

I would say you’re wrong, but we know you well enough. You lie all the time.

What brought up the issue of armed women preventing rape is Democrats who either never heard of campus rapes or poo-pooed the whole matter. The subject of that particular crime came from Colorado Democrats when debating the new state gun laws. They are the ones who said a woman should pee herself or run to a safe zone on the campus. The subject didn’t come up from the Conservative end. It came from yours.

If you don’t know the facts, you’re either a plain old idiot or a common lying liberal.

Or both.

Liam on March 12, 2013 at 9:34 AM

That isn’t the decision. The decision is whether or not to be raped. The rapist gets to make a choice too, whether or not that piece of ass they’re looking to take is worth dying for.

Charming.

MOST, not all. You conveniently dismiss those situations that a gun WOULD prevent a rape and/or murder because it doesn’t fit with your narrative.

I don’t dismiss them. I think that those kinds of sexual assault get far more than the 1/3 of media attention (especially in the right wing blogosphere) about sexual assault. How often do you actually see news outlets talking about the kinds of assaults that make up 2/3rds (that’s quite a large share) of rapes? How often has anyone on Fox News devoted a segment towards intervening in those kinds of rapes? I have nothing against a woman who uses a gun to defend herself against a rapist. I have a problem with the way conservatives have framed the discussion on rape in this country as a mere constituent of gun policy when it is a cultural phenomenon that outstrips the gun issue.

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/What-We-Do/

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:34 AM

Did you hear the b*tch who says, ‘or guns that have been taken away from them a killed them’. Stupid lefty b*tch. The only way a potential attacker is gonna take my revolver away from me is bullets first.

annoyinglittletwerp on March 12, 2013 at 9:35 AM

We should follow the advice of the CNN talking head who advocated that we simply inform men that rape is not acceptable and indeed is against the law.

If that doesn’t work then there should be an Executive Order from the WH detailing that all women in the U.S. attend training on how to barf on themselves to drive away rapists.

Bishop on March 12, 2013 at 9:39 AM

It does feel nice to not be on defense in this matter, like we are in so many others.

unclesmrgol on March 12, 2013 at 9:39 AM

Charming.

As I always am. But more importantly, it is factually correct, your feelings notwithstanding.

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 9:40 AM

Bishop on March 12, 2013 at 9:39 AM

I still prefer the numbers system. My counting starts @ .38…

annoyinglittletwerp on March 12, 2013 at 9:40 AM

How is this relevant to a conversation about the causes and solutions to rape in this country? Or did you just have an irrepressible urge to belch out something negative about black men?

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:22 AM

Rape=crime
Gun violence=crime

So by your woman’s logic we go after guns in one case, but the criminals in another.

Did I dumb it down enough for you? Did I spell out your feminist hypocrisy plainly enough for you?

Funny how you neo-comm’s didn’t give a damn about protecting children until it gave you a potential angle to confiscate guns.
You are all pathological liars.

ClassicCon on March 12, 2013 at 9:40 AM

libfreeordie said:

I am saying that the sole focus on guns as the only defense against sexual assault puts the responsibility for dealing with rape in our society on women. Its victim-blaming, plain and simple.

BS. No one is blaming the woman. I don’t even understand how you can come up with such a dishonest framing of the issue.

Catoclysmos on March 12, 2013 at 9:40 AM

Funny how you neo-comm’s didn’t give a damn about protecting children until it gave you a potential angle to confiscate guns.

If they cared about the children, they’d start with protecting them from teachers’ unions.

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 9:41 AM

I think that those kinds of sexual assault get far more than the 1/3 of media attention (especially in the right wing blogosphere) about sexual assault. How often do you actually see news outlets talking about the kinds of assaults that make up 2/3rds (that’s quite a large share) of rapes?

This is a discussion of the natural right to self-defense, not an analysis of the media. 3/3 of women have the right to protect themselves.

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 9:44 AM

So the left’s answer to rape has become “Don’t fight it baby?”

29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Want rape rates to go down? Let every woman be armed and, after a few shootings of intended rapists, many such criminals might think twice.

BS. No one is blaming the woman.

If the right isn’t using guns to defacto victim blame then please explain the distinction between saying “rapes would go down if every woman was armed” and “if she didn’t want to be raped, she should’ve carried a gun.”

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:46 AM

Gun advocates entry into the epidemic of sexual assault in this country via gun policy debate is cynical, dishonest and transparent.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:13 AM

It was a woman who asked the question and did not get an answer. The left recently has said, in effect, to yell, cross your legs, etc. — exactly the kinds of things that led up to much toughened rape laws.

Well, the laws aren’t working, maybe the woman needs something more powerful and immediate to defend herself — something that doesn’t merely annoy the attacker but completely incapacitates him.

There’s not even hypocrisy here for you to chew at. The few conservatives who’ve taken the “she deserves it by [looking/dressing/being]” are shouted down by their own as well as the majority of you guys. But there is hypocrisy here, and it’s coming from you. Now all women should carry a door around with them, so that if they are attacked, they can run home, get their shotgun, race back, and fire both barrels through it….

Heh.

unclesmrgol on March 12, 2013 at 9:48 AM

And a follow up. Why aren’t you pro choice on education for our children?

dczombie on March 12, 2013 at 9:48 AM

If the right isn’t using guns to defacto victim blame then please explain the distinction between saying “rapes would go down if every woman was armed” and “if she didn’t want to be raped, she should’ve carried a gun.”

Actually, the distinction is quite clear in your post. I shouldn’t have to explain it to you.

Catoclysmos on March 12, 2013 at 9:51 AM

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:46 AM

Step away from the bong. I’m 5’2 and around 120. I also cover my hair, wear long sleeves and the only time I even show my ankles is at the gym-but as a woman I could still potentially be raped. Rape isn’t about sex-it’s about control. As soon as I have my TX CHL-that control switches from a potential rapist…to me.
THAT is what this is about.

annoyinglittletwerp on March 12, 2013 at 9:51 AM

So the left’s answer to rape has become “Don’t fight it baby?”
29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Educate yourself

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

The left’s answer to rape has become “when do we stop blaming victims and start a conversation among men about rape. When do we start asking men to take responsibility beyond violence. Why do conservative men resist public an open conversations about the various ways male culture contributes to rape.” Again, if the right actually cared about sexual assault they would be really excited about groups like Man Can Stop Rape and other organizations that have spent years researching society’s attempts to deal with rape and offering innovative and effective solutions. Instead people like Bishop ridicule those efforts as “telling men rape is illegal.” It shows just how little the right cares about the epidemic of sexual assault in this country. For you, its all about sensational stories that rationalize gun ownership. Nothing more.

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:51 AM

What concerns me, and I think if you were honest you would admit that I am correct, is that the right’s interest in rape would disappear *instantly* if there was no threat to gun ownership from the Democrats.

This is not about rape per se. It’s about depriving law-abiding citizens of the right to defend themselves. But since you mention it, the right has much common sense on its side concerning rape, to wit:

I’m responsible not to walk down a dark alley at night. But if I have NO other choice, I’m responsible for taking measures to protect myself. You better believe they include carrying a weapon, because if a man approaches me in that situation I will immediately assume he wants to harm me.

I’m responsible to keep my drink in hand or in visual range at ALL times in a club or any other alcohol-containing situation.

I’m responsible not to let a man I’ve only been out with a few times into my home alone or any other situation that might put me at an irrecoverable physical disadvantage. Seriously – I’ve never understood why women are so quick to do this. Third-date rule, BS. It can take weeks, months, or years to learn if someone is trustworthy enough to deserve this privilege.

Underpinning all these is the recognition that I have the natural right to use lethal force on someone who tries to harm me – via rape, home invasion, or whatever else. I was born with it. You don’t need to agree with it and you can’t legislate it away.

Some women do feel they need that option.

Then why do you keep trying to talk us out of it?

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 9:52 AM

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:51 AM

NO ONE here is blaming ANYONE-except those on the left who are ‘pro-choice’ when it comes to murdering a child in the womb-but not when it comes to a woman’s ability to defend herself!

annoyinglittletwerp on March 12, 2013 at 9:53 AM

It was a woman who asked the question and did not get an answer. The left recently has said, in effect, to yell, cross your legs, etc. — exactly the kinds of things that led up to much toughened rape laws.

LOL! Be honest. You don’t know a thing about the history of sexual assault law in this country. Before you embarrass yourself further.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:54 AM

Just look at the way you frame your question. Pure Progressive projection under the presumed assumption that your view is truth.

Catoclysmos on March 12, 2013 at 9:55 AM

Educate yourself

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

The left’s answer to rape has become “when do we stop blaming victims and start a conversation among men about rape. When do we start asking men to take responsibility beyond violence. Why do conservative men resist public an open conversations about the various ways male culture contributes to rape.” Again, if the right actually cared about sexual assault they would be really excited about groups like Man Can Stop Rape and other organizations that have spent years researching society’s attempts to deal with rape and offering innovative and effective solutions. Instead people like Bishop ridicule those efforts as “telling men rape is illegal.” It shows just how little the right cares about the epidemic of sexual assault in this country. For you, its all about sensational stories that rationalize gun ownership. Nothing more.

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:51 AM

That’s wonderful lib; it really is.. but in the meantime– Should women sacrifice their bodies while you try to talk to these men? What you are talking about will take years if it even works, and then it won’t ever work 100%. So again while you are talking, should women be sacrificing their safety and their bodies while you talk?

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 9:55 AM

How many men are actually incarcerated for rape vs. the number of sexual assaults reported in this country. At least be honest in your citation of figures.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:29 AM

For starters, those are not my figures. Those are from RAINN..one of those organizations that devote all of their energy to intervening against a culture which promotes rape and with proven success.

So now we are moving the goalposts and indicting the criminal justice system?

How does the fact that many if not most sexual assaults go un-reported lend support to your argument that women should not be allowed guns to protect themselves.

The reality is that many women are raped by a man that they don’t know. They have the right, should they choose to use a gun to protect themselves. The reality is..even if the victim knows the perpetrator and she has access to a gun..she has the opportunity to protect herself from rape. Who are you to take away that right.

Maybe you;ve been watching too many rap videos but I don’t live in an area where rape is an accepted part of the culture.

That’s the really ugly underside to what conservatives are envisioning as the solution to rape. That is isn’t about giving guns to women to liberate them, this is about putting the onus on stopping rape on women and defacto regulating women’s behavior.

LOL. Stop projecting a**hole. Absolutely, NO ONE, except you is envisioning that load of BS.

HumpBot Salvation on March 12, 2013 at 9:56 AM

If the right isn’t using guns to defacto victim blame then please explain the distinction between saying “rapes would go down if every woman was armed” and “if she didn’t want to be raped, she should’ve carried a gun.”

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:46 AM

As a rape victim, I would really like you to STFU. First, are women to blame for rape? No, but we also need to educate girls not to put themselves in dangerous situations which can lead to rape i.e., frat parties- going to a bar and leaving your drink.

And I wish you would stop talking like you were an expert on sexual assault because you read some statistics. Weapons help. After I was raped, I refused to be raped again. I started carrying a knife around. The second time I was ALMOST raped, I wasn’t. Care to guess why?

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 9:58 AM

This is not about rape per se

Thank you for being honest.

I’m responsible not to walk down a dark alley at night. But if I have NO other choice, I’m responsible for taking measures to protect myself. You better believe they include carrying a weapon, because if a man approaches me in that situation I will immediately assume he wants to harm me.

I’m responsible to keep my drink in hand or in visual range at ALL times in a club or any other alcohol-containing situation.

I’m responsible not to let a man I’ve only been out with a few times into my home alone or any other situation that might put me at an irrecoverable physical disadvantage. Seriously – I’ve never understood why women are so quick to do this. Third-date rule, BS. It can take weeks, months, or years to learn if someone is trustworthy enough to deserve this privilege.

I’m sorry. But all of that is victim blaming. So young men can just walk where they feel, drink carefree, not worry about how many times they date someone before bedding them. But because men are “uncontrollable” and “can’t help themselves” or as many a rape defender has argued “boys will be boys” women have to be 100% on their guard. Where and where not to travel. How and how not to party. Who and who not to sleep with or else they (and forgive the phrase) open themselves up for attack. All of that is blaming the victim. Own it and embrace it, please do not pretend you are doing anything else.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:58 AM

First, are women to blame for rape? No, but we also need to educate girls not to put themselves in dangerous situations which can lead to rape i.e., frat parties- going to a bar and leaving your drink.

And why can’t men be educated? Because, fundamentally, you believe that the responsibility to stop rape exclusively lies in the decision of women. Its victim blaming.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM

That’s not blaming the victim, that’s urging women to take precautions – up to and including carrying a weapon.

Good Lord.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 10:01 AM

And I wish you would stop talking like you were an expert on sexual assault because you read some statistics. Weapons help. After I was raped, I refused to be raped again. I started carrying a knife around. The second time I was ALMOST raped, I wasn’t. Care to guess why?

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 9:58 AM

I am more than OK with restricting the conversation about sexual assault to women (and men) who are victims of sexual assault. But it does not seem equitable to only use that argument against the left and not against men on the right who also don’t know your experience.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:02 AM

I am saying that the sole focus on guns as the only defense against sexual assault puts the responsibility for dealing with rape in our society on women. Its victim-blaming, plain and simple.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:18 AM

Another straw man. Not one person, EVER, has suggested that guns are the only way of dealing with a rapist. Talk about dishonest.

On the other hand, your sole focus on disarming law abiding citizens (including women, some of whom will be raped as a result of this disarmament) shows a lack of concern toward all women, not to mention other victims of crime that will occur when you finally disarm us (and yes, I know leftists will eventually succeed with this….they always do and the results are always the same). Why do you hate women?

Finally, your suggestion that women won’t usually shoot a rapist they know, given the chance, is pure stupidity. I’d love to see how you came up with that. But we all know you made it up and have no intention of backing it up with anything resembling facts.

runawayyyy on March 12, 2013 at 10:02 AM

@melle1228 – brava. You are a great example of refusing to be a victim. God bless.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 10:03 AM

And why can’t men be educated? Because, fundamentally, you believe that the responsibility to stop rape exclusively lies in the decision of women. Its victim blaming.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM

I am not saying you can’t. I think it is a good idea. I have a son and I teach him all the things you are going to teach these men. But teaching men and protecting women are not mutally exclusive. And the ability to stop yourself from being a victim is the responsibility of woman. It is the woman’s responsibility to mitigate circumstances where she can be a victim.

You are doing rape victims or women NO FAVORS by glossing over that fact..

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 10:03 AM

That’s not blaming the victim, that’s urging women to take precautions – up to and including carrying a weapon.

Good Lord.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 10:01 AM

Is this a cognitive problem? Your solution to reducing rape exclusively includes things women need to do to protect themselves. Not anything men can do to intervene against their friends, not anything men can do to intervene against themselves. All things women have to do to protect themselves and reduce the “risk” that “they” are taking. Its victim blaming.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:04 AM

@melle1228 – brava. You are a great example of refusing to be a victim. God bless.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 10:03 AM

Thank you. It is the one thing I swore after I came to terms with being a victim; is to not remain the victim. Too many people do.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 10:05 AM

The left’s answer to rape has become “when do we stop blaming victims and start a conversation among men about rape. When do we start asking men to take responsibility beyond violence. Why do conservative men resist public an open conversations about the various ways male culture contributes to rape.” Again, if the right actually cared about sexual assault they would be really excited about groups like Man Can Stop Rape and other organizations that have spent years researching society’s attempts to deal with rape and offering innovative and effective solutions. Instead people like Bishop ridicule those efforts as “telling men rape is illegal.” It shows just how little the right cares about the epidemic of sexual assault in this country. For you, its all about sensational stories that rationalize gun ownership. Nothing more.

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:51 AM

Oh, I get it, the left’s answer is “Trust me baby. I’ll take care of everything.”

What next? “Just lay back and enjoy it?”

You believe you can teach rapists not to rape but not women how to safely handle a handgun?

Pitiful. Condescending. Foolish.

29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 10:05 AM

I am more than OK with restricting the conversation about sexual assault to women (and men) who are victims of sexual assault. But it does not seem equitable to only use that argument against the left and not against men on the right who also don’t know your experience.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:02 AM

So you would restrict my husband who knew me after my rape and largely helped me through counseling from talking about this issue. He who also has a daughter who might have to deal with this issue? He who is also raising a son?

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM

By the time a woman is confronted with a potential rapist, the time for chatting is long past. The ONLY thing an attacker will understand at that point is force.

annoyinglittletwerp on March 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM

*hug*

annoyinglittletwerp on March 12, 2013 at 10:07 AM

I have a son and I teach him all the things you are going to teach these men. But teaching men and protecting women are not mutally exclusive.

Tragically, history says that they are. Or have you not seen posters like Bishop and Pablo ridiculing the very IDEA that you can educate men on sexual assault. For example, you are saying “I am going to teach my son.” And that is wonderful. But wouldn’t it also be great if he joined a frat that was full of men who had also been educated about how they can stop sexual assault? Should we really leave that up to parents , because historically they haven’t done that. Sex ed should a: be sex segregated and b: include serious anti-rape education for young men. Conservatives historically have opposed those kinds of programs in the schools.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:08 AM

And why can’t men be educated? Because, fundamentally, you believe that the responsibility to stop rape exclusively lies in the decision of women. Its victim blaming.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM

You have locked onto a notion that’s so naive it’s silly. The more you dig in your heels when being refuted, you go from silly to the kind of person who is a danger to others.

My son and daughter were taught that rape is wrong, and my son (a potential rapist in your eyes) is an honorable man. I got lucky in that he listened to the good things me and his mother taught him. My daughter was also taught to fight if assaulted by a boy. since she couldn’t have a gun, I told her to use any means necessary to protect herself, up to an including deadly force.

But no matter how well a child is raised, some will grow to be criminals. It’s impossible to stop; some people are born bad. If you think having a ‘conversation’ is going to change everything, you’re arrogant as well as stupid.

Your stubbornness in refusing to get these basic points and facts of the real world tells that you are totally incapable of preventing one single rape or other crime, no matter how much you gibber and how deep you dig your heels.

Liam on March 12, 2013 at 10:08 AM

Thank you for being honest.

Do you ever follow statements to their logical conclusions? The larger issues have a direct bearing on the rape issue.

mrsknightley on March 12, 2013 at 10:08 AM

Because, fundamentally, you believe that the responsibility to stop rape exclusively lies in the decision of women. Its victim blaming.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM

Oh, good lord. That’s just a moronic statement.

Trust me, I’ve known dozens of rapists. They were going though years of forced THERAPY to try to stop and it failed for most of them. “Educating” people out of the urge to rape is a foolish pipe-dream used as an excuse to disarm women.

Congratulations. You have emboldened millions of rapists and made their job much safer.

Democrats — OSHA for rapists.

29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM

So you would restrict my husband who knew me after my rape and largely helped me through counseling from talking about this issue. He who also has a daughter who might have to deal with this issue? He who is also raising a son?

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 10:06 AM

You’re the one who suggested that only victims had the ability to talk about these issues. Not me…

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:09 AM

And why can’t men be educated? Because, fundamentally, you believe that the responsibility to stop rape exclusively lies in the decision of women. Its victim blaming.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:00 AM

Ah, so you’re going to educate evil impulses out of mankind. And you’re going to accomplish that while rendering the vulnerable utterly defenseless.

No, you’re not. The former is ridiculous and the latter is abominable. Human nature is not going to defer to your awesome ideas, no matter how many meetings the UN holds on the notions. Join us here in reality, won’t you?

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 10:11 AM

I’m sorry. But all of that is victim blaming. So young men can just walk where they feel, drink carefree, not worry about how many times they date someone before bedding them. But because men are “uncontrollable” and “can’t help themselves” or as many a rape defender has argued “boys will be boys” women have to be 100% on their guard. Where and where not to travel. How and how not to party. Who and who not to sleep with or else they (and forgive the phrase) open themselves up for attack. All of that is blaming the victim. Own it and embrace it, please do not pretend you are doing anything else.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 9:58 AM

Translation: The woman deserves it.

Heh.

unclesmrgol on March 12, 2013 at 10:12 AM

Tragically, history says that they are. Or have you not seen posters like Bishop and Pablo ridiculing the very IDEA that you can educate men on sexual assault. For example, you are saying “I am going to teach my son.” And that is wonderful. But wouldn’t it also be great if he joined a frat that was full of men who had also been educated about how they can stop sexual assault? Should we really leave that up to parents , because historically they haven’t done that. Sex ed should a: be sex segregated and b: include serious anti-rape education for young men. Conservatives historically have opposed those kinds of programs in the schools.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:08 AM

Conservatives have opposed these programs because they don’t consentrate on practical things like this. They concentrate on how to put a condom on a banana and leftist propaganda. If you made sex ed classes a little more practical and BIOLOGICAL and a little less ideological, conservatives would probably be willing to compromise on it.

And I don’t think that people are mocking education for men. What they are mocking is the fact that educating men is going to protect women right now. So if you start educating men; women are suddenly going to not need protection. We both know that isn’t true. Do boys need education- yes. But so do girls. Girls need to know- Don’t leave your drink alone at a bar-rufies. Don’t go to a frat party and get blitz. etc.

melle1228 on March 12, 2013 at 10:13 AM

They seem to literally believe that whatever is permitted is required.

thuja on March 12, 2013 at 8:35 AM

Because they don’t themselves think permission is enough. Look at how the definition of “tolerance” has changed under their pressure.

Is this a cognitive problem?

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:04 AM

Yes, indeed, you do have a cognitive problem.

Your solution to reducing rape exclusively includes things women need to do to protect themselves.

libfreeordie on March 12, 2013 at 10:04 AM

I don’t see anyone saying that there shouldn’t be laws against rape, and that the only way women should prevent it is through armed response. What I do see people saying is that laws and ‘education’ (I would call it civilization) don’t stop everyone. And, if you think that should be the only way we try to prevent/stop rape, then you’re a fool. I would prefer women be armed (if they so desire) for those times when civilization fails.

(And, yes, women also have to learn that some places and behaviors aren’t safe, and they should be prudent in their decisions.)

GWB on March 12, 2013 at 10:13 AM

Tragically, history says that they are. Or have you not seen posters like Bishop and Pablo ridiculing the very IDEA that you can educate men on sexual assault.

Are there men out there who haven’t been made aware that rape is immoral and illegal? Where are these men who just don’t know that rape is wrong? Where are the wolves that raised them?

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 10:13 AM

Ah, so you’re going to educate evil impulses out of mankind. And you’re going to accomplish that while rendering the vulnerable utterly defenseless.

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 10:11 AM

Yes. This is one of the more foolish foundations of modern liberal thought. It makes discussion with a lib almost entirely pointless.

29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 10:14 AM

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 10:11 AM

LipFeeorlie’s official song verse, “…He was high on intellectualism. I’ve never been there-but the brochure looks nice….”

annoyinglittletwerp on March 12, 2013 at 10:15 AM

Are there men out there who haven’t been made aware that rape is immoral and illegal? Where are these men who just don’t know that rape is wrong? Where are the wolves that raised them?

Pablo on March 12, 2013 at 10:13 AM

Libfree’s brain is saturated in Gender Studies classes. They believe that all men are horrible oppressive racists because the patriarchal society has made them that way. If they can only change society then they can cure all of man’s ills.

29Victor on March 12, 2013 at 10:16 AM

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