Q-poll: Catholic voters are leading US to same-sex marriage

posted at 12:31 pm on March 10, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Don’t look at me — I was the one arguing that the state should get out of the marriage business entirely, and that the only true state interest in marriage, from a secular point of view at least, is enforcing paternal responsibility, which has no connection to same-sex relationships.  This latest poll from Quinnipiac only surprises me to the extent that Catholic voters seem to be ahead of the general population in redefining the legal definition of marriage while still identifying as Catholic:

American voter support for same-sex marriage is inching up and now stands at 47 – 43 percent, including 54 – 38 percent among Catholic voters, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.

This compares to a 48 – 46 percent statistical tie among all voters on same-sex marriage December 5 and reverses the 55 – 36 percent opposition in a July, 2008, survey by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University. …

“Catholic voters are leading American voters toward support for same-sex marriage,” said Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. “Among all voters, there is almost no gender gap, but a big age gap. Voters 18 to 34 years old support same sex marriage 62 – 30 percent; voters 35 to 54 years old are divided 48 – 45 percent and voters over 55 are opposed 50 – 39 percent.["]

This seems surprising for two reasons. First, as a rule, the Catholic voting bloc doesn’t truly lead much anymore. They tend to just reflect the current status quo of the general electorate. This kind of gap from the topline finding is unusual, and perhaps speaks to the demographics of self-identifying Catholics in the US — more centralized in urban areas, trending younger, but perhaps more culturally and ethnically identified than practicing.  Only 31% in this sample attend Mass every week, and another 12% “almost” every week.  By contrast, 39% either “never” attend Mass or only attend a few times a year, with 18% only attending “once or twice a month.”

The other surprise is the significant majority presented in this poll that is willing to let the state redefine what is a sacrament in the religion with which these voters are affiliated.  It’s certainly intellectually possible to separate the church function in marriage from the state function, and a good number of decent and well-intentioned members of my faith make that argument.  Unfortunately, in the real world, those functions have been linked, and it’s not too difficult to see what will happen in the future if the state redefines marriage.  Eventually, a refusal to perform these unions will result in state sanctions and potentially the end of the ability of the church to perform one of its core sacramental duties; the HHS contraception mandate shows the demands popular culture will make on those of faith, and the penalties for refusal.

Also, not to hammer the point unnecessarily, but marriage in the Catholic faith is not a utilitarian tool for worldly pleasure.  It’s a mirror of the internal life of the Trinity, which like its progenitor creates life and operates on both a material and spiritual plane to help us attain the holiness that will eventually (we certainly hope) bring us into that Trinitarian presence for eternity.  That’s why it’s considered a sacrament, and why the Church teaches that marriages have to be open to new life in order to operate in a fully sacramental way — which, by the way, is the reason that the next Pope isn’t going to bless same-sex marriage or contraception, no matter how much the media wants it.  Now, secular voters aren’t required to believe this, but one might think that Catholic voters would.  The question of whether they have been taught this by their churches is certainly open to debate, however.

Yesterday I met author Christopher Ferrara, who wrote a provocative book called Liberty, the God That Failed: Policing the Sacred and Constructing the Myths of the Secular State, from Locke to Obama, which explores some of these issues. Chris is also president and chief counsel of the American Catholic Lawyers Association, which takes the cases of Catholics facing legal action for living their faith in the world, especially focused on pro-life issues.  Chris and I discussed these issues yesterday at the media center here at the Vatican:

I may catch up with Chris later to discuss more of the issues facing this conclave and the Catholic Church in the US.

Update, 3/11: The Catholic League responded yesterday by questioning Quinnipiac’s methodology:

‘Leaving aside the not insignificant fact that the sample size of Catholics was a mere 497, with a margin of error of plus or minus 4.4 percent, there is something so bizarre—that would be the kind word—about a much more problematic methodological issue: Quinnipiac asked Catholic voters 14 questions on issues of interest to them, and on all but one the survey disaggregated the answers on the basis of church attendance. The one exception was on same-sex marriage.

In other words, we know how Catholics think on issues ranging from celibacy to whether the new pope should come from the U.S. or not; we also know how they split on these subjects on the basis of church attendance. But all we know about the issue that is receiving top billing in the media—gay marriage—is the aggregate figure.

This takes on added significance when we consider that 4 in 10 of the Catholics sampled do not practice their religion (28 percent go to church “a few times a year” and 11 percent say they “never” attend). That these nominal Catholics are precisely the biggest fans of gay marriage is a sure bet, though the poll fails to disclose the results.

The Quinnipiac Polling Institute has some explaining to do.’

Via reader Karla.

HAatV-560


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We (the GOP) have to get over and past this issue.

Keep you own house (home) in order and this will not threaten or damage anyone you love and influence.

Divorcee, alimony – and community property will end Gay Marriage – trust me.

jake-the-goose on March 10, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Can I marry my goat.

Elchasebo on March 10, 2013 at 12:38 PM

From Ed’s other article on why we should get rid of state sponsored marriage.

The state could get out of the marriage business entirely, and have its citizens enter into partnership contracts instead. That might have the salutary effect of putting mechanisms into place for dissolutions that would keep divorces from dragging on through the courts, but also give the state more ability to enforce the terms of the contract than government is willing to do with marriages that lack pre-nuptial agreements, especially on penalties for abrogation.

Good luck with that. The courts would never enforce contracts with penalties for abrogation unless both parties had separate legal representation prior to signing a contract. Barely anyone is going to do that. Instead, most people will just sign a form “civil union” contract provided by the state and be done with it. In the end, it will just be marriage by another name.

That would also give the courts an opening to finally get rid of “palimony”, that noxious avenue where the courts have to make determinations whether contractual relations exist between people who neither execute a contract or take wedding vows.

I don’t think Ed understands palimony. You still need an agreement (read: contract) to get palimony, it’s just not a marriage contract or a written contract. You’d still have palimony even if you get rid of state marriage; it’d just be for people who aren’t “civilly unionized.”

red_herring on March 10, 2013 at 12:47 PM

It’s not surprising given the number of cafeteria Catholics there are in the church.

What I found most hilarious was one woman who claimed to simultaneously be Catholic and also said that the Pope has no special relationship with God. So much for inheriting the keys to the kingdom through a line of succession starting with Peter.

Stoic Patriot on March 10, 2013 at 12:48 PM

Can I marry my goat.

Elchasebo on March 10, 2013 at 12:38 PM

The better question is: can your goat marry you?

red_herring on March 10, 2013 at 12:48 PM

More like the courts.

JellyToast on March 10, 2013 at 12:50 PM

More proof that the Catholic Church is hell bent on its own destruction.

Blake on March 10, 2013 at 12:50 PM

Can I marry my goat.

Elchasebo on March 10, 2013 at 12:38 PM

…I need to get health insurance for my pets…they’re getting old…and the one cat has been eyeing me lately!

KOOLAID2 on March 10, 2013 at 12:50 PM

Here’s a good write-up of why the “get the govt out of marriage” position is implausible.

pauljc on March 10, 2013 at 12:52 PM

Doesn’t surprise me about Los Catholicos , those Idol worshippers. They stay quiet while priests hurt the kids. Plus guess what those illegal immigrants are? Correcto! Catholic! What happened to this country

conservador on March 10, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Is this TBN?

Rusty Allen on March 10, 2013 at 12:54 PM

The other surprise is the significant majority presented in this poll that is willing to let the state redefine what is a sacrament in the religion with which these voters are affiliated. It’s certainly intellectually possible to separate the church function in marriage from the state function, and a good number of decent and well-intentioned members of my faith make that argument.

Acts 4:19 – But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.

Acts 5:29 – Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

OhEssYouCowboys on March 10, 2013 at 12:54 PM

Nancy Pelosi is a Catholic. Enough said.

ctmom on March 10, 2013 at 12:55 PM

More proof that the Catholic Church is hell bent on its own destruction.

Blake on March 10, 2013 at 12:50 PM

Not really the Church itself, more like the laity that seems to think all it takes to be a good Catholic is to “be nice to people”.

Of course, the Church did directly contribute to that attitude in a number of ways.

pauljc on March 10, 2013 at 12:56 PM

Thanks a lot, Catholics.

Hey, didn’t most of you support Obama? Thanks for that, too. *grumble*

Grace_is_sufficient on March 10, 2013 at 1:01 PM

Divorcee, alimony – and community property will end Gay Marriage – trust me.

jake-the-goose on March 10, 2013 at 12:36 PM

Actually it is the state in general who is ending marriage. The state has figured out that it had more power endorsing welfare, promiscuity, no fault divorce etc. than traditional families. Gay marriage is just another bludgeon for the state to use against traditional Americans.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 1:01 PM

Doesn’t surprise me about Los Catholicos , those Idol worshippers.

conservador on March 10, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Hah! You obviously haven’t stepped inside a Catholic church for the last 50 years. You’ll be happy to know we’ve pretty much gone Protestant. All our beautiful traditions have been tossed aside like so much dead lumber. It’s now a happy-go-lucky tambourine fest with the occasional hippy Peace Love Hope monologue.

pauljc on March 10, 2013 at 1:02 PM

Bet if they polled PRACTICING Catholics, the numbers would be different.

GarandFan on March 10, 2013 at 1:05 PM

A couple of my gay inlaws have been “livin’ in sin” for near as long as my husband and I have been wed. They’ve married off 3 (hetero) kids, and since my offspring are too enmeshed in their careers to consider getting hitched, I’m at the Debbie Reynolds point in ‘In & Out’ screaming, “I NEED a wedding! It’s like HEROIN!”

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on March 10, 2013 at 1:05 PM

Q-poll: Catholic voters are leading US to same-sex marriage

If that is true, then the Catholic Church has become salt that has lost it’s flavor, and is good only for casting out.

SWalker on March 10, 2013 at 1:06 PM

This is why I left the Catholic Church. Far too many of them a phonies who think voting for big government is doing Gods work to help the poor and then waste time squabbling over earthly leaders like the pope when they should be focusing on their relationship with Jesus Christ and praying for conviction through the Holy Spirit. Went to a catholic church for 17 years and learned less about Jesus Christ in those 17 years than I did in 2 years attending Bible study with a friend one mine after high school. What a joke this church has become.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:12 PM

I’m part of the 38%.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:16 PM

We (the GOP) have to get over and past this issue.

Keep you own house (home) in order and this will not threaten or damage anyone you love and influence.

Divorcee, alimony – and community property will end Gay Marriage – trust me.

jake-the-goose on March 10, 2013 at 12:36 PM

And furthermore, I love how gay marriage opponents completely ignore the lawsuits, the edicts by the schools systems and the “tolerance” legislation that does damage and effect my house, my parental rights, my freedom to associate. It is amazing how their political opinion sweeps the facism attached to this movement under the rug..

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 1:17 PM

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:12 PM

I think I will stick with the true Church, thank you very much — you know, the guys who have preserved through the ages the Bible you claim to be your guide, and who from age to age are gathered as a people…

There are many who call themselves Christians, but who are anything but, and those who call themselves Catholic who are anything but. Jesus foretold this.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:20 PM

I think many of the catholics in this poll are perhaps not really practicing Catholics.

Some of these might go to mass on Christmas & Easter…Maybe even send their kids to CCD.

It wouldn’t surprise me if some aren’t even Catholic but hope to scew the poll.

The Roman Catholic Church will not marry Homosexuals and they will not be silent as to criticism about this lunacy either.

workingclass artist on March 10, 2013 at 1:20 PM

opponents

*proponents

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 1:21 PM

If that is true, then the Catholic Church has become salt that has lost it’s flavor, and is good only for casting out.

SWalker on March 10, 2013 at 1:06 PM

Because one Christian sins, or a hundred, or a thousand, or a billion — does that mean that they must be thrown out?

We are all sinners. Now, how does one turn from sin? The lesson of St. Monica and St. Augustine is instructive. Even when Augustine was his most dissolute, Monica never ceased exhorting him to come to God.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:22 PM

I think many of the catholics in this poll are perhaps not really practicing Catholics.

Some of these might go to mass on Christmas & Easter…Maybe even send their kids to CCD.

It wouldn’t surprise me if some aren’t even Catholic but hope to scew the poll.

The Roman Catholic Church will not marry Homosexuals and they will not be silent as to criticism about this lunacy either.

workingclass artist on March 10, 2013 at 1:20 PM

Well or it could be just a complete disconnect from the “Church” and American churches. I mean we see this with the Jewish population who continually votes Dem despite the anti-Israel sentiment.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 1:22 PM

Of course, the Church did directly contribute to that attitude in a number of ways.

pauljc on March 10, 2013 at 12:56 PM

No, the Church did not. There is the sinner, and there is the sin.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:24 PM

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:20 PM

No one told you to leave. I’m just pointing out my own experience with the Church. The church as a whole is far more concerned with man made traditions and works rather than faith and worship. Works only come after faith and conviction. Not through voting for big government ad certainly not through compromising the tenants of the faith to win esteem with the secular God haters who push for gay marriage.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:25 PM

This is sad considering that one of the leading intellectuals defending marriage is Robert George who is Catholic. I believe Maggie Gallagher is Catholic as well.

Ed, how about writing up what they have written and they are doing? What Is Marriage? by Sherif Girgis, Ryan T. Anderson & Robert P. George is a remarkable book. They recently did an article for NRO on it.

Marriage and Politics
Why the debate matters; why the conjugal view can prevail

By Sherif Girgis, Ryan T. Anderson & Robert P. George

On page four is a list of the benefits of marriage with a brief explanation of each.

Real marital fulfillment.
Spousal well-being.
Children’s well-being.
Friendship.
Religious liberty.
Limited government.

This is a serious issue, and they’ve brought serious thinking to bear on it.

INC on March 10, 2013 at 1:28 PM

Catholics are like Jews and Blacks. They are political liberals before they are anything else.

keep the change on March 10, 2013 at 1:30 PM

The USCCB is preparing for the Persecution of the Catholic Church by the Government of the United States.

Most catholics might either be unaware of this or don’t quite understand it having not really seen it here.

These are the willfully ignorant who romance socialism and have no clue as to how coercive and punitive the nice socialists of modern european countries are to their resident sheeple. They seek to make the US into an imitation Europe.

It is a dangerous delusion.

When Americans see Bishops,Priests and Nuns carted off to jail and churches shut down while a few imitation state approved churches up here and there…Perhaps they will wake up?

Perhaps they won’t and we will be in Darkness in this country.

The Roman Catholic Church will endure like it has always done…She has seen many Neros.

workingclass artist on March 10, 2013 at 1:31 PM

Doesn’t surprise me about Los Catholicos , those Idol worshippers. They stay quiet while priests hurt the kids. Plus guess what those illegal immigrants are? Correcto! Catholic! What happened to this country

conservador on March 10, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Some did. A Church filled with sinners, but which teaches the Truth, the Way, and the Life. We have cast out the demon in our house. Now, check the glass in yours.

As for the illegal aliens, well — your agenda here is totally exposed. You are a Know Nothing — “If we could just get rid of those pesky Catholic interlopers, who know nothing of our great and grand Protestant culture, everything would be good.”

Again, you’ve lost. They are here, they are breeding, and their children are voting, and every good idea you might have expressed is dross to those children because of your hatred for their parents.

Also, are you aware that almost 30% of those illegal aliens are Protestants — particularly the ones from Guatemala?

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:31 PM

Next up, multiple partner marriages, then Animal-human and machine-human, and finally adult and underage.

And why not?

Who are YOU to force YOUR values onto me?

PappyD61 on March 10, 2013 at 1:33 PM

The book is revised and expanded from their article “What is Marriage?” published in the Winter 2010 issue of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy.

You can read it here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49512761/What-is-Marriage-by-Robert-George

or here:

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/marriage/mf0139.htm

or here:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155

INC on March 10, 2013 at 1:34 PM

Because one Christian sins, or a hundred, or a thousand, or a billion — does that mean that they must be thrown out?
We are all sinners. Now, how does one turn from sin? The lesson of St. Monica and St. Augustine is instructive. Even when Augustine was his most dissolute, Monica never ceased exhorting him to come to God.
unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:22 PM

Of course we’re all sinners. The difference between far too many Catholics and Christians is Catholics seem to think their forgiven by going through the earthly motions set by the church and praying to saints. Most Christians understand that redemption only comes through repentance and a dedication to Christ and his work. Jesus Christ is it. The way the truth and the light. None of these man made traditions that Catholics put so much focus on are necessary and to me are a slap in the face to Jesus’ and his Apostles teachings. As if to say his dying in the cross wasn’t good enough.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:35 PM

Not really the Church itself, more like the laity that seems to think all it takes to be a good Catholic is to “be nice to people”.

Of course, the Church did directly contribute to that attitude in a number of ways.

pauljc on March 10, 2013 at 12:56 PM

The Church doesn’t even reign in its priests and nuns. I see them advocating for candidates who support abortion because the stink of “social justice” and “wealth distribution” trumps everything else.

Blake on March 10, 2013 at 1:35 PM

Ultimately it isn’t about “gay marriage”, it’s about expanding the states’ & Federal government’s powers & infringing on First Amendments rights & conscience rights.

22044 on March 10, 2013 at 1:38 PM

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:12 PM

You are right on so many points. The Church has become lifeless in some ways in this country. The nuns (the order, anyway) that educated me, abandoned the schools to become social workers, probation officers, walk around labyrinths and create ministries for the earth (green!). What the hell is THAT all about?? CCD instruction doesn’t even cover the basics of the Catechism — it’s all

I have gone to Mass faithfully my whole life (I’ve never missed) and won’t stop because of precisely what you say — no matter what the “humans” do to screw things up in the institution, the most important thing is my relationship with Christ through the Eucharist and the Word. I attend Mass at a few different churches – depending on where I am on the weekends or on HDoO – and I’m often discouraged by what I see in the congregation, namely a preponderance of white hair… fewer young people. I think in its quest to be “cool,” post V2, the Church lost its way in this country, unable to proselytize effectively in a culture that was rapidly heading away from traditional values.

Being a Catholic, or a person of any Christian faith, takes work. It’s a struggle sometimes, but one that makes us (hopefully) stronger and better individuals; unfortunately, in our rush-to-convenience society, people don’t want to do the tough stuff that faith demands. That’s weak.

dpduq on March 10, 2013 at 1:40 PM

I’m not Catholic, and I find it simply amazing that the excellent work done for marriage by people who are Catholic is not widely disseminated and discussed by Catholics.

On government & marriage by Jennifer Roback Morse, who I believe is also Catholic:

Privatizing Marriage is not the Answer to the Same-Sex Marriage Debate March 10, 2009

Privatizing Marriage Is Impossible April 2, 2012

Privatizing Marriage Will Expand the Role of the State April 3, 2012

INC on March 10, 2013 at 1:43 PM

dpduq on March 10, 2013 at 1:40 PM

The bible pretty much backs you up. If it was easy to get into heaven, the road would be wide and well traveled. Yet the bible argues that the road to hell is wide and well traveled, the path to heaven narrow and sparsely populated.

astonerii on March 10, 2013 at 1:44 PM

Not through voting for big government ad certainly not through compromising the [tenets] of the faith to win esteem with the secular God haters who push for gay marriage.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:25 PM

I see no compromising of the tenets of faith. Indeed, our leaders here in America erred in their initial support for Obamacare, but that error came from a Christian desire to help people. They have since seen the error of their ways. We (I do, and I expect that you do as well) understand that helping people is a private act, and should not be performed by having Caesar force others to help. In that regard, the Church’s leaders here in American have gotten the message — Caesar does not think as we do, and will use the money we’ve forced others to give for good things to instead be used for evil.

I do not impugn the motives of such a desire, but the methods. If Obamacare was voluntary — and had neither abortion nor abortifacients nor contraception — I’d support it by donation.

I see nothing in Catholic teaching that condones gay marriage, and I see nothing there which condones abortion, and the Church — including that portion here in America — has been forthright in its opposition to both. It is Catholics who are overwhelmingly in the forefront of filing lawsuits to allow a freedom of conscience exception to Obamacare. I expect they will win.

Big government is neither sinful, nor unsinful — but it is not God.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM

dpduq on March 10, 2013 at 1:40 PM

I commend your diligence and dedication. You are much stronger than I am in that regard. I feel the church failed me. My priests were good men but as a whole I grew up thinking all I had to do was take communion, pray to saints and Mary and confess my sins to our church leader. Not Jesus himself. I was always conflicted and finally gave up until my friend started teaching me about Jesus and his work.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:52 PM

The Americanist are no good for the Church or the Country.

G.K. Chesterton was right when he said:

“The next great heresy is going to be simply an attack on morality; and especially on sexual morality. And it is coming, not from a few Socialists surviving from the Fabian Society, but from the living exultant energy of the rich resolved to enjoy themselves at last, with neither Popery nor Puritanism nor Socialism to hold them back… The roots of the new heresy, God knows, are as deep as nature itself, whose flower is the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eye and the pride of life. I say that the man who cannot see this cannot see the signs of the times; cannot see even the skysigns in the street that are the new sort of signs in heaven. The madness of tomorrow is not in Moscow but much more in Manhattan – but most of what was in Broadway is already in Piccadilly.”

Gatekeeper on March 10, 2013 at 1:53 PM

Hah! You obviously haven’t stepped inside a Catholic church for the last 50 years. You’ll be happy to know we’ve pretty much gone Protestant. All our beautiful traditions have been tossed aside like so much dead lumber. It’s now a happy-go-lucky tambourine fest with the occasional hippy Peace Love Hope monologue.

pauljc on March 10, 2013 at 1:02 PM

You guys too, eh? I left a church where they were perfectly happy with having kids dance on stage, people swaying in the aisles, and all sorts of stuff that early Baptists (I’m a Baptist) would be shocked to see. I’ve settled at a church here in MN (Bethlehem Baptist, where John Piper just retired) that seems pretty traditional. Not enough hymn-singing in my opinion, but the preaching is great.

Next up, multiple partner marriages, then Animal-human and machine-human, and finally adult and underage.

And why not?

Who are YOU to force YOUR values onto me?

PappyD61 on March 10, 2013 at 1:33 PM

Hey, it was socially acceptable in parts of the ancient world. There is nothing new under the sun, and it’ll make a comeback.

Ultimately it isn’t about “gay marriage”, it’s about expanding the states’ & Federal government’s powers & infringing on First Amendments rights & conscience rights.

22044 on March 10, 2013 at 1:38 PM

For the political ones, sure. For a lot of them it’s 100% making depravity acceptable by society, and the best way to do that is to have government sanction it.

Of course we’re all sinners. The difference between far too many Catholics and Christians is Catholics seem to think their forgiven by going through the earthly motions set by the church and praying to saints. Most Christians understand that redemption only comes through repentance and a dedication to Christ and his work. Jesus Christ is it. The way the truth and the light. None of these man made traditions that Catholics put so much focus on are necessary and to me are a slap in the face to Jesus’ and his Apostles teachings. As if to say his dying in the cross wasn’t good enough.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:35 PM

I’ve got major issues with Catholic doctrine, but Protestantism (at least in America) is in a sorry state as well. I’ve got all sorts of observations I could bring up. (And I’m saying this as a Protestant).

Othniel on March 10, 2013 at 2:00 PM

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 1:45 PM

I don’t disagree with much of what you’ve just said except that the problem is their congregation and its behavior is a reflection on the church leadership. Something is seriously wrong with how the church is being run and how they’re teaching their flock of they’re constantly voting for sin and robbing Peter to pay Paul instead of standing firm with Christ.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Catholic doctrine is not determined by popular vote, polls, or changes in societal direction, thank God…pardon the pun. I had to give that poll a long look, as it was certainly surprising.

Gay marriage is an entirely secular issue, and not about any religious faith. So a poll showing US Catholics approving of gay marriage within The Church is fine…but unless a “Vatican III” comes along and decides same-sex marriage would be recognized, it’ll remain a secular state issue.

JetBoy on March 10, 2013 at 2:01 PM

None of these man made traditions that Catholics put so much focus on are necessary and to me are a slap in the face to Jesus’ and his Apostles teachings. As if to say his dying in the cross wasn’t good enough.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 1:35 PM

The men who created those traditions were the Apostles. And the traditions are designed to focus our thoughts and our deeds upon the sacrifice on the cross, as well as upon the whole of Jesus’ life, and what He taught us.

Examples: Why is Lent 40 days; what does it celebrate?

Pretty simple question, but I’m betting that most Christians who are not (or were not) Catholics will not be able to guess. [More than one evangelical Protestant has asked me about Lent, because their church has decided to observe it...]

Why do Catholics fast during Lent?

What is the meaning of the ashes on Ash Wednesday?

The entire Bible is read in Mass during a three year cycle. Why read the Bible in Mass if you can read it at home?

Who was Mary, and is she at all important — and if she is, why?

All of the traditions of the Church are there for a reason — to guide a people who tended NOT to read the Bible (in fact, for the first 1500 years of Christianity, Bibles were very rare due to the inability for craftsman to build printing presses, and a lack of people who could read in the vernacular, much less Greek or Latin).

Why was the Bible kept in Latin for over 1500 years?

Why are traditions still pertinent today?

Why all of the tradition associated with assuring that a published Bible is correct?

Why does a Catholic Bible have more books in it than a Protestant one? Why are the Psalms numbered differently?

You see, tradition is part of the scaffolding the Holy Spirit uses to keep us Christians aware of the message Jesus gave us. You have discarded over 1500 years of Christianity because you view it as unimportant. I don’t.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 2:02 PM

I attend Mass at a few different churches – depending on where I am on the weekends or on HDoO – and I’m often discouraged by what I see in the congregation, namely a preponderance of white hair… fewer young people. I think in its quest to be “cool,” post V2, the Church lost its way in this country, unable to proselytize effectively in a culture that was rapidly heading away from traditional values.

dpduq on March 10, 2013 at 1:40 PM

erm…Dear Sir. As you who sits on the board of GOProud, doesn’t it feel a bit strange to argue against the Church vis a vis “a culture that was rapidly heading away from traditional values”?

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on March 10, 2013 at 2:04 PM

Catholic doctrine is not determined by popular vote, polls, or changes in societal direction, thank God…pardon the pun. I had to give that poll a long look, as it was certainly surprising.

Gay marriage is an entirely secular issue, and not about any religious faith. So a poll showing US Catholics approving of gay marriage within The Church is fine…but unless a “Vatican III” comes along and decides same-sex marriage would be recognized, it’ll remain a secular state issue.

JetBoy on March 10, 2013 at 2:01 PM

I am the last one to comment on religious matter or the Catholic Church, but the American Catholic Church “social justice” doctrine is more offensive to me than their gay marriage doctrine. How can ANY CHristian church think that Jesus would be okay with relying on Cesar to take care of people is beyond me, but maybe I am missing something in the doctrine.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Anti-Catholicism is a tradition of men.

Gatekeeper on March 10, 2013 at 2:16 PM

I am the last one to comment on religious matter or the Catholic Church, but the American Catholic Church “social justice” doctrine is more offensive to me than their gay marriage doctrine. How can ANY CHristian church think that Jesus would be okay with relying on Cesar to take care of people is beyond me, but maybe I am missing something in the doctrine.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:07 PM

What part(s) of the Catholic social doctrine do you find offensive?

JetBoy on March 10, 2013 at 2:17 PM

This Catholic does not know a single catholic that believes in gay marriage, so I question their sampling.

I could believe that catholic’s from San Francisco might poll out this way, but if they polled in my neck of the woods the results would be much different.

Shenanigans!

DannoJyd on March 10, 2013 at 2:23 PM

What part(s) of the Catholic social doctrine do you find offensive?

JetBoy on March 10, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Here is where my ignorance gets me in trouble. Don’t they support welfare programs, medicaid, obamacare (with the exception of the mandate) and illegal immigration? Or is this an individual thing based on different diocese?

This is the problem I had with my leftist Christian friends when I was religious. Jesus would have never relied on the state to take care of the people around him. Church-yes, charity-yes, Cesar-absolutely not.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM

I don’t disagree with much of what you’ve just said except that the problem is their congregation and its behavior is a reflection on the church leadership. Something is seriously wrong with how the church is being run and how they’re teaching their flock of they’re constantly voting for sin and robbing Peter to pay Paul instead of standing firm with Christ.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 2:

With all the posts by Ed on the papacy, he fails to mention the building articles on the gay inner sanctum of the Vatican that has been building since the 70′s.

It’s not hard to figure this out, it’s just difficult to accept. As a practicing Catholic, the more I read about wtf has been going on in Italy, the more I realize the entire authority to be moved to the States or Asia.

They’re corrupt to the core. A cadre of gay men and deviants who decided to use the church as a curtain. When you think about the simple, logical choices that should have been made since the 80′s – allowing nuns and priests to marry, larger role for women – you realize the common denominator can only be a gay clergy who wants nothing to do with females.

This article is BS. Only Catholics that should be polled are the ones walking out of mass. I may be an ex-college ballplayer, but that doesn’t mean I can speak on behalf of current players.

You’re still going to have some in the church that support it, such as in Cali and NY, but it’s not going to be a 50/50 split. Reality is closer to 75/25.

budfox on March 10, 2013 at 2:26 PM

Something is seriously wrong with how the church is being run and how they’re teaching their flock of they’re constantly voting for sin and robbing Peter to pay Paul instead of standing firm with Christ.

jawkneemusic on March 10, 2013 at 2:00 PM

There are many who call themselves Christian. Relatively few of those are. Jesus has said this.

In the end, Jesus will tell us whom was whom — although we can guess at the status of a Joe Biden or a Nancy Pelosi (who really butcher Catholicism with their idea that internal faith does not have to be mirrored in action).

Of course, an evangelical would have a easy answer to Biden or Pelosi — they are not saved Christians, because if they were, the action of the Holy Spirit would force them to act in accordance with their faith. But we Catholics put great store on free will — that, at any point in our lives, we have the freedom to turn away and not do what God wants us to do — with all of the problems such an act causes in the world. An evangelical thinks that, once one is saved (and salvation happens the moment one acknowledges in his or her mind that Jesus is Lord and Savior), the Holy Spirit blesses that one, and the one so blessed becomes incapable of suffering punishment for any subsequent sin or error…Salvation is an instantaneous occurrence.

Such a simple salvation is blocked to the Catholic by tradition — a tradition fully rooted in Gospel. For a Catholic, one must constantly strive to be worthy of the sacrifice the Lord made for us, for we are innately prone to error, and must be corrected. One’s acts are, to the Catholic, a necessary mirror of their faith. Works without faith are meaningless, but faith without works is also meaningless. We hope we are saved, we work to be saved, we believe to be saved.

It is God who will ultimately judge us — who will give or deny us Salvation. That doesn’t mean that we cannot judge others, but the rules we use to judge them will be applied to us. And some of us, per God’s own words, have the right to bind or loose sin. Now, if I were one of those, I’d be quick to loose sin, but very wary of binding it.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 2:27 PM

What part(s) of the Catholic social doctrine do you find offensive?

JetBoy on March 10, 2013 at 2:17 PM

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/joegarofoli/article/Paul-Ryan-bishops-not-in-accord-on-budget-3811729.php

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:29 PM

You see, tradition is part of the scaffolding the Holy Spirit uses to keep us Christians aware of the message Jesus gave us. You have discarded over 1500 years of Christianity because you view it as unimportant. I don’t.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 2:02 PM

What about the medieval sale of indulgences? What that part of the “scaffolding” the Holy Spirit used?

I put little stock in the traditions of men.

Jesus didn’t seem too keen on them, either.

Grace_is_sufficient on March 10, 2013 at 2:31 PM

http://www.sfgate.com/politics/joegarofoli/article/Paul-Ryan-bishops-not-in-accord-on-budget-3811729.php

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:29 PM

Look at the source!

DannoJyd on March 10, 2013 at 2:32 PM

the poll is obviously timed to hector people into thinking that the Church is out of step. This has been going on for a long time. In teh US the Catholic church has always been looked at suspiciously

progressives and all leftists have just continued that tradition. This is based on 500 people, large error terms. The fact that many of the respondents say that they are just fine with barry.care

By a 51 – 41 percent margin, Catholics support Present Barack Obama’s position that religious-based institutions, such as hospitals and universities, must arrange for their insurance companies to provide birth control coverage for employees.

Ed, this is just a poll to make news so to give form to the left wings media coverage that the Pope must be Progressive

r keller on March 10, 2013 at 2:34 PM

Gay marriage is an entirely secular issue, and not about any religious faith. So a poll showing US Catholics approving of gay marriage within The Church is fine…but unless a “Vatican III” comes along and decides same-sex marriage would be recognized, it’ll remain a secular state issue.

JetBoy on March 10, 2013 at 2:01 PM

I get it. You’re gay. You’re for it.

But you’re lying.

As Ed said. As I’ve been calling out for years – the next step is to sue any organization that does not partake in gay ceremonies.

It will start with reception halls and services, and eventually move into the churches and lawsuits and the diocese.

You’re either in denial because you don’t want to admit people in your cause, like LibFree, are power hungry bigots…

…or you know, and you’re patronizing hoping enough people remain asleep until its too late.

It cannot be that you simply “don’t believe it will happen”, because then that means you don’t really care if religious orgs will face class discrimination lawsuits.

I used to believe most LGB were oblivious to how bigoted their advocacy groups are. I don’t anymore. I think they’re fine with whatever ends justify the means, because you rarely, rarely see or read someone with that community stand up and say “let’s clarify some points before we proceed”.

That’s all that was ever needed.

budfox on March 10, 2013 at 2:34 PM

What is a “practicing catholic, weren’t the priests practicing Catholics? Legitimized by the institution? Vetted by their traditional structure only to hide behind it when our American justice system came looking. Catholics care more about the next pope then our state of government, which is sad since they believe the church is higher than the Constitution. We are LOSING our country!

conservador on March 10, 2013 at 2:37 PM

Look at the source!

DannoJyd on March 10, 2013 at 2:32 PM

LOL– Yeah I know it was the SF Gate. It wasn’t the only source but the first one that popped up. That is why I wanted to know if the social justice/government program doctrine was an American Catholic Church wide thing or a diocese thing. It seems like there is a lot of dependency on government programs from the Catholic Church side to take care of the poor. I just want to know where the religious justification comes from. Jesus would be appalled to see that a Church relies heavily on Ceasar to take care of people.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:40 PM

It’s certainly intellectually possible to separate the church function in marriage from the state function, and a good number of decent and well-intentioned members of my faith make that argument. Unfortunately, in the real world, those functions have been linked, and it’s not too difficult to see what will happen in the future if the state redefines marriage. Eventually, a refusal to perform these unions will result in state sanctions and potentially the end of the ability of the church to perform one of its core sacramental duties; the HHS contraception mandate shows the demands popular culture will make on those of faith, and the penalties for refusal.

If you want to make an argument in the upcoming Synod for the election of an American Pope, this would probably be the justification — that the leader of the church over the next decade is quite possibly going to find its American branch in a fight with the political ruling class over penalties, such as the loss of school and hospital accreditation or the loss of tax-exempt status, if they don’t adjust church teachings to fit the evolving state laws, whether it’s abortion/birth control in hospitals or schools or insurance mandates which require both, or lawsuits over Church refusal to perform same-sex marriage. An American Pope would force the cafeteria Catholics in the U.S. to choose sides and would give the Church a leader more attuned to communicating the Church’s positions to Americans in general

The selection and the civil union fight are still in the future, and the latter might never happen. But the HHS mandates and lawsuits currently in the pipeline bet against that. My guess is the conclave still ends up going with a Pope from Africa or Latin America, since the general feeling is the U.S. Church can take care of itself and an American Pope could be used by certain other religions (no points for guessing which one) to try and tie the Church to the American government, even if the reason for the elevation would be roughly for the same reason John Paul II was elevated, to serve as a rebuff to the current government of the Pope’s home country (and in the case of Poland, its oppressor).

jon1979 on March 10, 2013 at 2:42 PM

Is it not possible to be a reporter these days without towing the line on so-called social matters? Don’t let your gay friends, who may be very nice, let you mistake the reality.

The only poll that matters here is what gays actually do when marriage, or some kind of legal recognition is available. They prefer not to. In fact, of those that do get married, a disproportionate number file for divorce:

Read this summary of studies, from countries that have more experience with it:

Stockholm University’s study seems to confirm the American trend. In Norway, male same-sex marriages are 50 percent more likely to end in divorce than heterosexual marriages, and female same-sex marriages are an astonishing 167 percent more likely to be dissolved. In Sweden, the divorce risk for male-male partnerships is 50 percent higher than for heterosexual marriages, and the divorce risk for female partnerships is nearly double that for men.

So, pursuant to Ed’s concern about the welfare of children … I submit that this official underwriting of unstable relationships is, as social policy, if nothing else, a pretty bad idea whose apparent supporters don’t even want to exercize.

This is exactly the gay boy-scout template. Gays don’t believe in the Boy Scouts, don’t want to join and parents don’t want them in. The larger goal is to destroy the institution. Attacking marriage is the continued attempt by the left to destroy governmental opposition in the form of religions like the Catholicism.

virgo on March 10, 2013 at 2:43 PM

Catholics care more about the next pope then our state of government, which is sad since they believe the church is higher than the Constitution. We are LOSING our country!

conservador on March 10, 2013 at 2:37 PM

Yeah right!

Let’s review: Out of the population entitled to vote, perhaps 40% are registered voters.

Out of the 40% registered to vote, usually less than 40% actually cast their votes.

With less than 20% of Americans caring enough to vote, would you like to guess what percentage gets involved at ANY level of supporting any candidate, such as at the grass roots level?

Unless you are involved, do feel free to get off of our backs and spend your ‘free’ time correcting your own malaise.

DannoJyd on March 10, 2013 at 2:44 PM

LOL– Yeah I know it was the SF Gate. It wasn’t the only source but the first one that popped up.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:40 PM

IF I remember correctly, the first ‘source’ to pop up on a search page indicated the one most chosen on the net, so we now KNOW that more people rely on sources from gay lovin San Francisco than the rest when it comes to getting homosexual news.

To be blunt, that stinks to high heaven since this American feels very little kinship with anything coming from that area of la la land.

Shenanigans!

DannoJyd on March 10, 2013 at 2:49 PM

One of the charities I’ve been involved in was ‘Chicago House’, an AIDS hospice. The biggest fundraiser we ever had was Catholic Charities’ mega yard sale, where clothing, housewares, etc. flowed in from the “givers”, and appreciative patients (as many as were still ambulatory) went around thanking the buyers.

Churches, as an indispensable part of our communities, cannot be dismissed.

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on March 10, 2013 at 3:11 PM

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck-then it’s a duck.

If it acts like a pagan, behaves like a heathen, and believes like an idolator, then it’s not a Catholic.

Don L on March 10, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Here is where my ignorance gets me in trouble. Don’t they support welfare programs, medicaid, obamacare (with the exception of the mandate) and illegal immigration? Or is this an individual thing based on different diocese?

This is the problem I had with my leftist Christian friends when I was religious. Jesus would have never relied on the state to take care of the people around him. Church-yes, charity-yes, Cesar-absolutely not.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM

Catholic social doctrine has no official political position on any of these issues – it does call for us to feed the hungry, aid the immigrant, and care for the least of God’s people (the imprisoned, the disabled, etc). It is a matter of individual discernment for each Catholic.

There are bishops, priests and other church leaders that have made a name for themselves in the secular media peddling regressive “seamless garment” crap while ignoring church teachings on grave moral acts like abortion and extramarital sex (shorthand: adultery/gay marriage/cohabitation) – but these social positions are not official Church teaching.

The Catholic Church is wonderfully easy to defend for the simple reason we have written down every one of our teachings – The Catechism of the Catholic Church will give you all you need to know on official church doctrine.

It’s fruitless to get into arguments with Protestants who are belligerent towards Catholics. Whine all you like about our “man made rituals” – just remember you wouldn’t even have a Bible to fall back “Sola Scriptura” if it weren’t for us, and more to the point our faith was in operation before any such thing as a Bible was compiled, and all we had was “man made rituals” and the oral tradition.

BKennedy on March 10, 2013 at 3:43 PM

With all the posts by Ed on the papacy, he fails to mention the building articles on the gay inner sanctum of the Vatican that has been building since the 70′s.

budfox on March 10, 2013 at 2:26 PM

I believe that there are gays in the Church, and, in fact, that some are practicing gays in high places.

If such people were truly in charge, then gay marriage would already be legal, and the teaching of the Church would have changed to allow it.

But the teaching of the Church has not changed — it does not allow it.

There is a disconnect between these two universes.

I went over to vatileaks.com and checked out the website hoping to find some of the materials (about a gay cabal in the Vatican) that had been nosed about by that guy who pretended to be a Cardinal and lasted half an afternoon in that “dangerous” environment before being thrown out… but there’s nothing there but a sales site for three anti-Catholic books. Ditto for vatileaks.org or vatileaks.net (the latter is aliased to vatileaks.com).

According to the Vatican itself, the investigation unearthed financial impropriety but no gay behavior.

Of course, The Guardian and La Repubblica (both left wing newspapers with an extreme dislike of Catholicism) think otherwise.

Here’s the guardian article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/21/pope-retired-amid-gay-bishop-blackmail-inquiry

Here’s the La Repubblica article:

http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2013/02/21/news/ricatti_vaticano-53080655/?ref=HREC1-4

The text “Ipotizzata anche una lobby gay.” in the headline gives the thrust — hypothesized a gay lobby.

I read the La Repubblica article and there were no quotations from any document.

Here’s the rest:
http://www.repubblica.it/topics/news/scandalo_al_vaticano-35910608/

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 3:59 PM

As Ed said. As I’ve been calling out for years – the next step is to sue any organization that does not partake in gay ceremonies.

Budfox, it’s already happened. Google “methodist pavilion”

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 4:00 PM

Catholics care more about the next pope then our state of government, which is sad since they believe the church that the Lord is higher than the Constitution. We are LOSING our country!

conservador on March 10, 2013 at 2:37 PM

FIFY

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 4:02 PM

What about the medieval sale of indulgences? What that part of the “scaffolding” the Holy Spirit used?

I put little stock in the traditions of men.

Jesus didn’t seem too keen on them, either.

Grace_is_sufficient on March 10, 2013 at 2:31 PM

Q: Do you, Grace, believe that your prayers for others will affect their lives for good? Do you believe that they can affect your life? Do you believe that your acts of faith can affect other lives for good? Do you believe that your acts of faith can affect your life for good?

If you say yes, then you understand exactly what an indulgence is. If you say no, then you don’t.

Remember that in Catholicism, a sin takes on a life of its own. In other words, even though one might ask forgiveness for a sin one has committed, and be granted forgiveness, the effects of the sin forgiven continue.

A penance is the work a person must do to mitigate the effects of the sin they have committed. Remember, in Catholicism, faith and works are tied together — you cannot have one without the other.

An indulgence is a form of penance. A paid indulgence is a way of mitigating the effects of one’s sins by providing money as part of the penance — which, if you look at things the way we do — is the work of one’s hands. Indulgences can also be given on behalf of another — to mitigate the effects of their forgiven sins by the good works of the community.

Part and parcel of the concept of an indulgence is that the work involved in it (most indulgences do not involve money) goes to benefit both the individual and other people of God.

What Luther found wrong about the indulgences that he railed about was the use of money indulgences to fund the rebuilding of St. Peter’s Basilica — which had been destroyed by the Germans when they sacked Rome some years earlier. He went further, denying that the Pope or the Church had inherited Peter’s right to bind or loose sins — because he falsely believed that the Church was selling salvation.

The Church teaches that the effects of our sins must be mitigated before we can enter Heaven — that God exacts a temporal punishment for what we have done wrong in this life. What is a temporal punishment? It’s a time after death where we, although saved, are denied Heaven. And indulgences (trying to mitigate your sins through penitential acts such as building and serving in hospitals, schools, lepers colonies, orphanages. churches, etc) are part and parcel of our preparation for possible salvation.

I’ve seen many evangelicals make the claim that an act of faith (a firm and sincere statement of belief in Jesus) obtains Salvation — and that the sins incurred thereafter do not disturb that Salvation. Such a claim is identical to that which Luther railed about — that the Pope was selling permanent exclusion from the punishment of sin — Salvation. Such individuals need no putative Pope — they have sold themselves an indulgence of the type Luther detested.

Now, you don’t have to believe in any of this, but it makes sense to us Catholics.

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 4:32 PM

Ways that corrupt b-tards in the socialist media conduct “polls” (that ALWAYS turn out to favor their warped, despicable ideology):

1. Get a list of registered d-cRAT socialists, and then poll mostly these low-information reprobates.
2. Conduct polls using mostly people from the socialist cesspool states of NY, bankruptifornia, Illinois and Taxachusetts and from detroit.
3. Conduct the poll mostly from readers of the leftist propaganda sheets, like The Weasel (washington) Post, the New York Slimes, the boston globe, the SanFran Chronicle of Socialism, etc.
4. Poll mostly blacks, ILLEGALS, union goons/thugs and government bureaucrats.

TeaPartyNation on March 10, 2013 at 4:32 PM

And furthermore, I love how gay marriage opponents completely ignore the lawsuits, the edicts by the schools systems and the “tolerance” legislation that does damage and effect my house, my parental rights, my freedom to associate. It is amazing how their political opinion sweeps the facism attached to this movement under the rug..

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 1:17 PM

If you want to make these hyperbolic claims, then you should be honest about history. Historically, the Catholic Church has directly or indirectly been responsible for edicts that resulted in the state murder and torture of gay people. If you want attack gay marriage for fascism, then honesty compels you to admit the genocidal fascism of the Catholic Church.

“With the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Luke 6:38

thuja on March 10, 2013 at 4:33 PM

As Ed said. As I’ve been calling out for years – the next step is to sue any organization that does not partake in gay ceremonies.

Budfox, it’s already happened. Google “methodist pavilion”

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 4:00 PM

Catholics care more about the next pope then our state of government, which is sad since they believe the church that the Lord is higher than the Constitution. We are LOSING our country!

conservador on March 10, 2013 at 2:37 PM

FIFY

unclesmrgol on March 10, 2013 at 4:02 PM

Yes it’s happening here and is based on the successful formula that has taken place in Europe and Canada.

The Fascists must either coerce into submission or destroy the Church (and any other smaller Christian denominations) who oppose the Totalitarian agenda.

Churches/Synagogues bind communities,protect and advocate for autonomous families.

That is at the heart of Augustine’s Catholic Social Justice Teaching.

Liberation Theology which is a gross distortion of Augustine’s Social Justice Teaching is Marxism & it has been co-opted in this country by liberals.

It is not Catholic Teaching because it would conflict with Catholic subsidiary…and Latin Bishops exploited subsidiary to help it spread. It has been condemned as a heresy and Benedict XVI has fought it for 30+ years.

Catholic Doctrinal Principles do not conflict…If they do as proposed or expressed by some it is heresy and in her long history the Church has seen many heresies.

A great book about the history of Heresy is called The Encyclopedia of Heresies/Heretics.

workingclass artist on March 10, 2013 at 4:38 PM

Can I marry my goat.

Elchasebo on March 10, 2013 at 12:38 PM

Is your Goat an adult consenting Human Being?

TEPJoePa on March 10, 2013 at 4:38 PM

meant to type subsidiarity.

Our Government in the Constitution was influenced by the Catholic principle of subsidiarity.

workingclass artist on March 10, 2013 at 4:40 PM

Here is where my ignorance gets me in trouble. Don’t they support welfare programs, medicaid, obamacare (with the exception of the mandate) and illegal immigration? Or is this an individual thing based on different diocese?

This is the problem I had with my leftist Christian friends when I was religious. Jesus would have never relied on the state to take care of the people around him. Church-yes, charity-yes, Cesar-absolutely not.

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 2:25 PM

OK I see what you’re getting at.

The bible commands us to give aid and charity to our fellow man. When some priests/churches offer illegals in the US a place to sleep, eat, whatever, doesn’t mean anyone is pro-illegal alien…only that it’s offering humanitarian aid to another human being. So the RCC doesn’t support welfare/socialized healthcare labeled as such, because helping the poor and destitute are why they do it.

I really hope that makes sense.

There’s a neat little list here about social justice in reference to the RCC: http://www.ecatholic2000.com/sj/socjust.shtml

JetBoy on March 10, 2013 at 4:41 PM

What about the medieval sale of indulgences? What that part of the “scaffolding” the Holy Spirit used?

I put little stock in the traditions of men.

Jesus didn’t seem too keen on them, either.

Grace_is_sufficient on March 10, 2013 at 2:31 PM

Sure…and in the history of protestantism they never sold symbolic communion now did they?

Yep…they did.

In Presbyterianism you had to buy a token or you were publicly shunned by the congregation.

workingclass artist on March 10, 2013 at 4:44 PM

Gay marriage is happening.

Just sit back and laugh (or not) as everything starts to happen that gays have sworn never will.

Churches and all places of worship being forced to marry gays, and sued if they don’t. People trying to marry three other people, animals, cars, trees, whatever.

The fun will be the media trying to spin it all.

Moesart on March 10, 2013 at 4:44 PM

Can I marry my goat.

Elchasebo on March 10, 2013 at 12:38 PM

Is your Goat an adult consenting Human Being?

TEPJoePa on March 10, 2013 at 4:38 PM

What about a genetically modified goat that is equal in intelligence to a human being?

thuja on March 10, 2013 at 4:45 PM

I get it. You’re gay. You’re for it.

But you’re lying.

As Ed said. As I’ve been calling out for years – the next step is to sue any organization that does not partake in gay ceremonies.

It will start with reception halls and services, and eventually move into the churches and lawsuits and the diocese.

You’re either in denial because you don’t want to admit people in your cause, like LibFree, are power hungry bigots…

…or you know, and you’re patronizing hoping enough people remain asleep until its too late.

It cannot be that you simply “don’t believe it will happen”, because then that means you don’t really care if religious orgs will face class discrimination lawsuits.

I used to believe most LGB were oblivious to how bigoted their advocacy groups are. I don’t anymore. I think they’re fine with whatever ends justify the means, because you rarely, rarely see or read someone with that community stand up and say “let’s clarify some points before we proceed”.

That’s all that was ever needed.

budfox on March 10, 2013 at 2:34 PM

Would you look at that mess…

JetBoy on March 10, 2013 at 4:47 PM

Here’s a good write-up of why the “get the govt out of marriage” position is implausible.

pauljc on March 10, 2013 at 12:52 PM

The claim that it is essential for government to license marriage is false, and government getting out of such business is entirely plausible. How do I know this? Because I’ve actually known people in my life who lived together, had children, and shared property who were NEVER MARRIED. Somehow the law has a way of coping their custody and property issues if their relationship ends.

If conservatives are stubbornly resistant to the libertarian position on this, then they had better get ready for government licensed and endorsed gay marriage over most of the country.

Reggie1971 on March 10, 2013 at 4:51 PM

What about a genetically modified goat that is equal in intelligence to a human being?

thuja on March 10, 2013 at 4:45 PM

LOL– OOH then I want a genetically modified dog with opposable thumbs who can work and support me and my husband- and when polygamy becomes legal; we can be on its social security and health insurance. Just an idea. :)

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 4:54 PM

If you want to make these hyperbolic claims, then you should be honest about history. Historically, the Catholic Church has directly or indirectly been responsible for edicts that resulted in the state murder and torture of gay people. If you want attack gay marriage for fascism, then honesty compels you to admit the genocidal fascism of the Catholic Church.

“With the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” Luke 6:38

thuja on March 10, 2013 at 4:33 PM

That is once again historical revisionism…which might be fashionable but inaccurate.

Before the late 19th century their were no Gay People who identified as Gay.

Judaism considered Homosexuality as dangerous unnatural pagan act, like other pagan practices such as human sacrifice.

It’s no surprise that Christians would adopt the same attitude and go further in acting against other pagan practices such as Human Sacrifice, Infanticide and Abortion,Fornication etc.

workingclass artist on March 10, 2013 at 4:55 PM

What part of “people lie to pollsters about their support for gay marriage” don’t some people understand? I mean, just about every state that has voted against SSM had polls leading up to it that said a majority of people actually support it. Whether it was true or not, that’s what the polls said.

We need to stop propping up these polls because they wind up swaying opinion by making opposition seem strange and miniscule when really gay marriage only wins among a sympathetic judiciary or a sympathetic electorate with a high Democratic turn out, and that’s only in the best case scenario.

And it’s silly to keep saying the government needs to get out of the marriage business. They’re not “in” the marriage business to begin with — you don’t “have” to have a marriage license. And why is this always a response to erstwhile opponents of SSM? There’s plenty of “marriage equality” lovey-doveyness going around, but you don’t hear the libertarian refrain in response to that. It’s always in response to people in opposition, when really, if you truly feel marriage should not be legally recognized, you’re essentially opposing it, too. I think it’s like Ann Coulter said, libertarians wanting to suck up to liberals by alienating the right-wing.

jas88 on March 10, 2013 at 4:56 PM

What about a genetically modified goat that is equal in intelligence to a human being?

thuja on March 10, 2013 at 4:45 PM

Is this nonexistent “genetically modified goat that is equal intelligence to a human being” an actual Human Being or just a “genetically modified goat that is equal intelligence to a human being?”

TEPJoePa on March 10, 2013 at 4:58 PM

LOL– OOH then I want a genetically modified dog with opposable thumbs who can work and support me and my husband- and when polygamy becomes legal; we can be on its social security and health insurance. Just an idea. :)

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 4:54 PM

Would this genetically modified dog with opposable thumbs be a Human Being or just a genetically modified dog with opposable thumbs?

TEPJoePa on March 10, 2013 at 5:01 PM

Would this genetically modified dog with opposable thumbs be a Human Being or just a genetically modified dog with opposable thumbs?

TEPJoePa on March 10, 2013 at 5:01 PM

He he.. Didn’t get that far in my thinking. Was just looking at my Boxer, Boston Terrier, and Golden Retriever and what I pay monthly in dog food and had a leftist, lazy moment. It passed quickly. :)

melle1228 on March 10, 2013 at 5:16 PM

Catholicism-the only religion where the “believers” decide what they want to believe,whenever they want to,and where the same believers still believe the Church that protected pedophiles still has some moral authority.Becoming quite the joke!

redware on March 10, 2013 at 5:21 PM

TEPJoePa on March 10, 2013 at 5:01 PM

+

Human Non-human why should it matter? It about my choice right?

Speciesist!!!!

/

Jamson64 on March 10, 2013 at 5:22 PM

This poll is a blatant lie.

Only a small percentage think marriage between homosexuals
is okay. Most support some time of government civil union,
not marriage. Most also think that homosexual behavior is
not the will of God, although we tend to look the other way.
Most of us just mind our own business. We try to live life
according to the ten commandments while also knowing that we
have stumbled along the way and so have others.

For those of you who post on and on about the alleged abuse
by priests, please know that the crimes alleged were commmitted
by “men”, not “God”. The religion is sound.

I suggest that those who do not believe should research
“stigmata”. Once you have seen the hands and feet bleed,
you will never doubt that God exists again.

And for those of you who think we evolved from apes, what’s wrong
with the apes that are still roaming the earth? Why didn’t they
evolve into human beings?

Amjean on March 10, 2013 at 5:25 PM

redware on March 10, 2013 at 5:21 PM

Hard time staying on topic much bigot?

Jamson64 on March 10, 2013 at 5:25 PM

Before the late 19th century their were no Gay People who identified as Gay.

workingclass artist on March 10, 2013 at 4:55 PM

True. In fact, in 1885, England’s Queen Victoria outlawed gay men:

Lesbianism was never made illegal in Britain because when Queen Victoria was shown the proposed legislation she refused to sign it, as she wouldn’t believe that lesbians existed: “Women do not do such things”

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on March 10, 2013 at 5:30 PM

+

Human Non-human why should it matter? It about my choice right?

Speciesist!!!!

/

Jamson64 on March 10, 2013 at 5:22 PM

Umm, No. Unless your current husband/wife is that ugly that other people assume he/she is non-human, then only consenting adult Human Beings should have any dealings with marriage in the United States.

TEPJoePa on March 10, 2013 at 5:33 PM

Definitely got a lot of Southern Evangelical anti-intellectualism going on here. Moronic attempts to compare consenting adults marrying to humans marrying animals.

The country would be in a much better place when Evangelicals stop claiming they are for small government. They really support “small government” except for marriages, our bodies, our bedrooms, and anything else they consider “icky.” Then they are all about Big Brother, Draconian Laws, and Constitutional Amendments.

TEPJoePa on March 10, 2013 at 5:38 PM

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