NRO: Ammunition purchases by government not a conspiracy

posted at 3:21 pm on March 5, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

We have been getting plenty of e-mail about purchases and contracts for ammunition by government agencies, which seem to have prompted a run on ammunition by private consumers and the shortages that these runs usually entail.  The e-mails usually express concern over the supposedly massive amounts of ammunition being stockpiled and the threat to American liberty that it represents.  At National Review — not exactly a shill for Barack Obama — editor Charles C. W. Cooke looks at the actual numbers and debunks the conspiracy theories:

Nonetheless, one could reasonably ask why the Social Security Administration would need any ammunition at all. Are the elderly especially unruly these days? Jonathan L. Lasher, in the SSA’s external-relations department, explained to theHuffington Post that the ammunition is “for the 295 agents” in the outfit’s office of inspector general “who investigate Social Security fraud and other crimes.” Divide the rounds by the number of agents, and you get about 590 per agent; in a given year, that’s about ten rounds a week. “Most will be expended on the firing range,” Lasher continued.

Okay. And why does the USDA need 320,000 rounds? Because it runs the Forest Service, which covers “155 national forests” and “20 national grasslands” on a total of “193 million acres of land.” As well as agents in the field, the outfit has a law-enforcement unit based in Washington, D.C., whose responsibility it is to enforce federal laws and regulations. In context, those 320,000 rounds look a lot less threatening: If the U.S. Forest Service were to distribute ammunition at the same rate as the Social Security Administration, they would have enough for just 542 agents — not bad for an organization that covers an area the size of Pakistan (or twice the size of Japan or Germany).

It’s all about scale. Forty-six thousand rounds also sound like a lot for the National Weather Service. (Actually, the ammo was requested by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s Fisheries Office of Law Enforcement, which is overseen by the same department.) In reality, it’s not that much. The service has only 63 armed personnel, which brings the purchase out at around 730 rounds per officer. This, suffice it to say, does not present a great threat to the Republic. As the NRA has noted, “more than a few NRA members would use that much ammunition in a weekend shooting class or plinking session.” There are enough risks to the right to bear arms and to American liberty in general, the NRA continued, without “inventing threats.”

Cooke also explores the more significant contracts of over 500 million rounds combined for the FBI and DHS, both obviously law-enforcement agencies, which have been the subject of other e-mails.  The DHS contract runs for five years, Cooke explains, and doesn’t require DHS to make the purchases.  It’s a pricing-contingency arrangement, one that makes a lot of sense for cost stability and control, that reserves as much as 450 million rounds over the period of the contract.

We get a lot of e-mail with various doomsday scenarios built on conjecture, and we don’t address most of them for the simple reason that we’d rather focus on actual issues. This particular meme has built up some staying power, however, and Cooke’s column should get wide distribution in order to set minds at rest and put them to more productive use.  And Cooke has a suggestion where we can start:

Questions do still abound: Whether it is in possession of one bullet or 1 million bullets, should the federal Department of Education be armed in the first place? If so, why? Should its OIG be investigating external fraud rather than handing it over to the police or the DOJ or the FBI? For those federal departments that play no role in combating domestic and foreign threats — such as the DoE — what would constitute a threat requiring armed confrontation with malefactors?

Read this all the way through to see what happens when organizations without a criminal law-enforcement mission try to go it alone; it doesn’t end well.  Shouldn’t agencies like the DoE work through the FBI or US Marshals in order to enforce the law?  This seems like a ripe area for reform and consolidation within the federal government, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we couldn’t wring out some significant savings by eliminating duplication in law enforcement.

Update: Patriot Perspective addressed this a year ago, and has more thoughts today.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3

So, there are more of these officers in these government departments than all the troops we had in Iraq shooting up ammo in a year and then times 24 to 30 years of shooting.

Let’s see.
“around 730 rounds per officer.”

750/24years is the amount of bullets shot up by each of our troops in Iraq in one year.

750/25 = 30 Hey, they only had one 30 round high capacity magazine to shoot for an entire year.

Our troops were really very very very frugal with their rations of 30 yearly bullets in ONE CLIP.

NO SALE!

Stefan

stefanslaw on March 5, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Commenting can be hard, but perhaps even though this is the beginning of the third page of comments, one should read over the previous pages where the conspiracist has been debunked over and over and over….

^^^^

catmman on March 5, 2013 at 11:14 PM

http://freedomoutpost.com/2012/08/gun-grabbers-of-katrina/ 2nd amendment BS.

mixplix on March 6, 2013 at 6:43 AM

All I know is that I cannot find ANY ammunition ANYWHERE for my S&W .357 or my Glock G26 – even the wadcutters for practice are out of stock. And if all these government agencies are supposedly using hollow points for target practice, that is a gross disregard of taxpayer money (but what else is new?).

Sorry, I am not a conspiracy nut, but I honestly believe that the Feds are doing this to strangle the supply of ammunition for ordinary citizens. Period.

Logic on March 6, 2013 at 7:34 AM

Ok, I’ll buy the explanation except for the HP part for practice. I’m still waiting for the back story on the purchase of 2700 armored vehicles. Anyone?

Kissmygrits on March 6, 2013 at 8:20 AM

Again, read the thread.

Te MRAPS story was misreported. Those 2,700 vehicles are going to the Marines, not DHS. DHA has 16 of these vehicles nationwide and have had them since 2008.

Te Feds aren’t buying up all the AR 15s, or 10-22s or .500 S&W ammo – ALL of which are in short supply – due to panic buying. The. Government orders for ammo are simply exacerbating the problem, not causing it.

catmman on March 6, 2013 at 8:30 AM

archer52 on March 5, 2013 at 8:15 PM

cozmo on March 5, 2013 at 9:05 PM

You’ve probably seen this already, but just in case:

HuffPo: ACLU Launches Nationwide Police Militarization Investigation

HuffPost investigative reporter Radley Balko is author of the forthcoming book Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces.

petefrt on March 6, 2013 at 9:49 AM

Conspiracy is so much more fun. It’s sad that this regime’s fascist-style machinations make it believable.

ironked on March 6, 2013 at 9:55 AM

catmman on March 6, 2013 at 8:30 AM

Ya just can’t keep a good rumor or conspiracy theory down.
It’s like trying to stop the BS spam emails that keep getting sent over and over and over…..

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 10:16 AM

HOMELAND SECURITY HAS BOUGHT MILLIONS OF ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION, TO INCLUDE HOLLOW-POINT ROUNDS – AMMUNITION THAT HAS BEEN OUTLAWED BY GENEVA FOR USE DURING WAR DUE TO ITS HIGHLY DESTRUCTIVE NATURE. tHEY HAVE JUST BOUGHT SEVERAL HUNDRED LIGHT-ARMORED TANKS. THEY NOW HAVE ARMED PREDATORS/DRONES, & YESTERDAY ERIC ‘OBAMA-REAR-KISSER’ HOLDER, THE 1ST ATTORNEY GENERAL TO EVER BE CENSURED BY CONGRESS FOR PERPETRATING 3 FELONY COUNTS OF PERJURY BEFORE CONGRESS, JUST STATED THE PRESIDENT HAS THE AUTHORITY TO PERPETRATE DRONE STIKES ON U.S. PERSONNEL ON AMERICAN SOIL FOR BEING SUSPECTED TERRORISTS.

In 2008 Obama said he wanted to have his own militia that was as powerful as the U.S. Military! How would Liberals be reacting right now if BUSH was doing any of this?! AMERICANS NEED TO TAKE THE PARTISAN GLASSES OFF & WAKE THE H#LL UP!

easyt65 on March 6, 2013 at 10:45 AM

Sorry, Ed, but I don’t think the article you quoted resolves the issue entirely.

DHS, by its own admission, does not use anywhere near the amount of ammunition for training to justify the putchases:

Training requires the use of approximately 15 million rounds of ammunition annually.

http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/firearms-division/interesting-facts-about-the-firearms-division.html

The DHS purchases over the last year include:

March 2012 – 450 million rounds

August 2012 – 750 million rounds

September – 200 million rounds

December 2012 – 250 million rounds

February 2013 – 21.6 million rounds

That is just shy of 1.7 billion rounds. Over 5 years, a little over 300 million rounds a year. Which is 20 times their annual training requirement.

By comparison, the USMC, in a time of war, uses around 70 million rounds of 5.56 ammunition a year. http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/Vol10No3.pdf

Every Marine shoots; not every DHS employee is authorized to carry weapons.

And as has been noted, at the height of the War in Iraq, the annual ammunition expenditure in theater averaged 70 million rounds annually.

Assuming the last DHS order in Febuary for 21.6 million rounds was indeed for training purpuses, that still leaves over 1.6 billion rounds they will have in inventory.

While I appreciate the position of the NRO, they needed to go beyond the surface and dig behind the “5 year” and “training” rationales. When DHS only needs 15 million rounds a year for training, even on a 5 year staggered delivery over 5 years, what about the remaining 290 million rounds?

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 11:09 AM

hmmmm. who to believe. Sarah Palin or national review.

I pick the Chick!

renalin on March 6, 2013 at 11:19 AM

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 11:09 AM

You do know that is just ONE location (out of 3) for specific training programs?
Federal personnel who are armed, and therefore need to stay weapons qualified, do their practice shooting at local facilities scattered all across the country. So while this one facility may use 15 million rounds per year, that is NOT the total usage for training and practice across the entire federal government.

And different types of people/officers have different levels of ammo usage for their training and practice. As a coworker who is former Army Special forces has told me, Rangers and SpecOps people go through many thousands more rounds per year than regular infantry in training and practice. I would suggest the same is true when comparing Forest Rangers, SSA IG, FBI, and Secret Service.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 11:32 AM

easyt65 on March 6, 2013 at 10:45 AM

If you read the rest of the thread and check posted links, you’ll find that they do NOT haveseveral hundred light tanks. DHA has 16 MRAPs, and they’ve had them for several years. Several other points you shouted have been debunked as well.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 11:34 AM

Individually maybe none of them concern us, but is it just “tin-foil hat paranoia” when we connect them all?
Recorded back in the 70’s:
Former FBI agent Larry Grathwohl, who infiltrated Obama’s friend Bill Ayers’ group WEATHER UNDERGROUND and discovered his plan for American re-education camps and the need to kill millions:
2 minutes, 20 second video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWMIwziGrAQ
Obama in 2008 tells the audience we need a civilian national security force, just as strong and well funded as our military, 35 second clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s
October 7, 2012 Homeland Security graduates first Corps of Homeland Youth
http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q42012/homeland-security-graduates-first-corps-of-homeland-youth/
Obama DHS Purchases 2,700 Light-Armored Tanks to Go With Their 1.6 Billion Bullet Stockpile
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/03/obama-dhs-purchases-2700-light-armored-tanks-to-go-with-their-1-6-billion-bullet-stockpile/
DHS-Homeland Security Mine-Resistant Tank Armored Vehicle-Coming soon to your neighborhood?
Among the questions being asked: “Why on earth does the US government need thousands of these for domestic use?” and “Belt fed machine gun… mine resistant… FOR DOMESTIC use?” and “DHS… WHO are you going to be fighting DOMESTICALLY with all this equipment, guns, and ammunition?” and “… while they’re making entry into the house? Who’s house?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0pS9aw5pcJo
Breaking: Obama DHS Soups Up Drone Fleet to Include Domestic Surveillance Capabilities
DHS has customized its drone fleet to include domestic surveillance capabilities that would help government identify civilians carrying guns and track their cell phones:
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/03/breaking-dhs-customizes-drone-fleet-to-include-domestic-surveillance-capabilities/
Homeland Security Now Armed With Enough Ammo for 24 Year-Long Iraq War
According to one estimate, just since last spring DHS has stockpiled more than 1.6 billion bullets, mainly .40 caliber and 9mm. That’s sufficient firepower to shoot every American about five times. Including illegal immigrants.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/02/homeland-security-now-armed-with-enough-ammo-for-24-year-long-iraq-war/

DHS buys 7000 full-auto assault rifles, calls them ‘personal defense weapons’
http://www.naturalnews.com/038844_DHS_assault_weapons_documents.html

SOMETHING is going on folks. At an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM this is preparation for civil unrest when the economy soon collapses, but could it be worse?
MORE SURELY TO COME…. ..

dave_ross on March 6, 2013 at 11:37 AM

Again, read the thread.

Te MRAPS story was misreported. Those 2,700 vehicles are going to the Marines, not DHS. DHA has 16 of these vehicles nationwide and have had them since 2008.

Link please…and even then you need to watch the video of the DHS soldier explaining its use that was in my other post.

Te Feds aren’t buying up all the AR 15s, or 10-22s or .500 S&W ammo – ALL of which are in short supply – due to panic buying. The. Government orders for ammo are simply exacerbating the problem, not causing it.

I think it’s a little of both. Don’t think for a minute the thought hasn’t occurred to them-at least by now, that they can aid in the shortage by placing massive, repeat orders. At some point COINCIDENCE must end, and REALITY must begin. No, they are loving this now.

catmman on March 6, 2013 at 8:30 AM

dave_ross on March 6, 2013 at 11:44 AM

Obama DHS Purchases 2,700 Light-Armored Tanks to Go With Their 1.6 Billion Bullet Stockpile
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/03/obama-dhs-purchases-2700-light-armored-tanks-to-go-with-their-1-6-billion-bullet-stockpile/
DHS-Homeland Security Mine-Resistant Tank Armored Vehicle-Coming soon to your neighborhood?
Among the questions being asked: “Why on earth does the US government need thousands of these for domestic use?” and “Belt fed machine gun… mine resistant… FOR DOMESTIC use?” and “DHS… WHO are you going to be fighting DOMESTICALLY with all this equipment, guns, and ammunition?” and “… while they’re making entry into the house? Who’s house?”
dave_ross on March 6, 2013 at 11:37 AM

That one has already been debunked – see earlier in the thread.
NO tanks. USMC bought a bunch of new MRAPs. DHS has 16 MRAPs and has had them for several years. I question why DHS has or needs ANY at all, but it’s not anywhere near what that original article said.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 12:16 PM

Homeland Security Now Armed With Enough Ammo for 24 Year-Long Iraq War
According to one estimate, just since last spring DHS has stockpiled more than 1.6 billion bullets, mainly .40 caliber and 9mm. That’s sufficient firepower to shoot every American about five times. Including illegal immigrants.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/02/homeland-security-now-armed-with-enough-ammo-for-24-year-long-iraq-war/
dave_ross on March 6, 2013 at 11:37 AM

Also regarding this one – if the 1.6 billion figure includes the recent contract with ATK Federal for 450 million – then they have not “stockpiled 1.6 billion bullets”. That recent contract is a 1 year base IDIQ contract with 4 options years for a MAXIMUM purchase of 450 million rounds over the next 5 years.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 12:21 PM

All I know is that the DHS has about 120,000 folk, including the Coast Gurad, athorized to be armed. As none of this ammo is going to the Coast Guard, we are down to perhaps 100,000 folk. I also know the NYC police dept is using under 100 rounds per officer per year in training and qualification. I further know 1.6 BILLION rounds of ammo is more ammunition than was used by US forces from 1943-1945 in the italian campaign in WWII (they were issued 1.5 billion rounds in total ) and I have read that the total is about 24 years worth of ammo sent to Afghanistan…But heck, NRO has spoken so there mst not be a problem!

To quote another fellow who failed to see a problem..

“My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.”

Perhaps waking up makes more sense.

JIMV on March 6, 2013 at 12:25 PM

I also know the NYC police dept is using under 100 rounds per officer per year in training and qualification.

JIMV on March 6, 2013 at 12:25 PM

Considering NYPDs record of hitting innocent bystanders and NOT hitting their intended targets in shooting situations – maybe they should start using a lot more ammo in training and practice….

I don’t know how much ammo every different LE organization uses for training and practice, and it does vary – but I know the last time I went to the range with my son we used about 300 rounds of 9mm in just a couple hours.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 12:34 PM

Time on the range is time not doing other stuff. Few governmental agencies outside of the military devote a lot of time or money on firearms qualifications. No matter how I figure this, 1.6-1.7 Billion rounds of ammo is well over 15,000 rounds pre armed bureaucrat. I simply refuse to believe there is ny real plan to use that ammo in practice. In addition, the contracts largely call for hollow point pistol ammo…No one practices with expensive hollow point ammo. They use the far cheaper ball ammo, which we are not buying in any serious quantity.

I agree with other folk that the armored vehicle story floated yesterday is bogus. I have found the identical claim going back a couple of years and all seem to be related to a contract for the overhaul of 2717 vehicles funded by the navy for the eventual use by the Marine Corp. The contract can be looked up with a little research. It is also true that DHS does have such vehicles, but in numbers way below scary…

I read yesterday that even the Dept of Education has armed agents! (they muffed a raid a year or so ago and got some press)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/education-department-swat-team-raids-california-home/2011/06/08/AGUxlKMH_blog.html

Put another way, our domestic agencies all seem to think they need armed personnel for a host of bogus reasons and when deployed, these amateurs come offf like the BATF’s keystone cops.

There is simply no real rational reason for the fed’s domestic agencies to buy ammo in the quanties discussed.

JIMV on March 6, 2013 at 12:56 PM

JIMV on March 6, 2013 at 12:56 PM

As I’ve indicated through this thread from the beginning, and others have also, there are definitely some valid questions about what’s going on with some of this. But we need to focus on the valid issues and not run off screaming about the bogus items that make everyone look like tin-hat conspiracy theorists.

That’s why I try to get down to the real facts. As I said earlier – have they really stockpiled 1.6 billion rounds, or does that number include long-term IDIQ contracts for maximum deliverable quantities at a set price over the next 5 years? I’ve been a DoD contractor since 1987, so I’ve dealt with these things a lot. Just because the government signs an IDIQ contract does not mean they will necessarily buy the maximum deliverable quantity. They do it to lock in the best price, and quite often never reach the ceiling by the end of the contract.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 1:07 PM

JIMV on March 6, 2013 at 12:56 PM


Do us ALL a favor since you are unwilling to believe ANYTHING ANYONE has presented in this thread.

Go back over to InfoWars and stay there.

Here, your stamping your foot and repeatedly posting, “It’s this because I refuse to believe anything but what I want to believe.” only reminds us of the other spoiled child, the SCOAMF.

PolAgnostic on March 6, 2013 at 1:10 PM

Cheese and crackers…

I guess it ps too hard to look through the thread where every question posted on this last page has already been answered, answered again, linked with supporting material and then…debunked – again.

Some people really seem to only care about bullshinola.

catmman on March 6, 2013 at 2:02 PM

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 1:07 PM

Yes, I agree and I understand government contracting. I also understand such contracts generally consider a range of possible buys, they need ‘at least’ to ‘as much as’….

The ‘as much as’ category is seldom in the loony tunes range. If they settle on buying coffee pots and they figure they need 1000 they will not set an upper limit of 100,000.

And, again, one does not buy hollow point ammo by the hundreds of millions at a few bucks more a box for training when the normal training rounds are far cheaper.

Now I will say it is distinctly possible that the fellow in charge of buying the ammo is clueless as to what he is buying (I was a purchasing agent as my post military career).

JIMV on March 6, 2013 at 2:24 PM

You do know that is just ONE location (out of 3) for specific training programs?

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 11:32 AM

Yes I do, and do YOU know that Glynco is the main training facility under which the other two training facilities operate? And do you also know that other than DHS, Glynco is noe the primary training facility for almost all federal law enforcement? And do you further know thatthe number of armed officers under DHS is between 55,000 and 60,000, a percentage of their total employee base of 230,000?

As for you friend stating that certain SpecOps groups expend more ammunition a year that some entire branches of services, this is an overly broad statement. You friend was talking about the Navy SEALs, whose ammunition budget is greater than that of the USMC. SEAL teams do not use off the shelf ammunition, and they do get in a lot more trigger time than most otehr service members. But, are you really comparing DHS officers to Navy SEALs? REALLY?

If you want to lull yourself into a sense of security by trying to use Obama-math, go right ahead. The point I was trying to make is that while on the surface, the justification seems to hold water, it falls apart once you get below the surface, which one needs to do these days in dealing with TPTB.

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 2:27 PM

PolAgnostic on March 6, 2013 at 1:10 PM

On the contrary…I believe quite a bit of what is posted here. I believe the armored vehicle story is bogus. I believe DHS has let contracts for around 1.7 BILLION rounds of ammo and I understand the difference between training ammo and the more expensive hollow point ammo. I Believe the numbers being quotes as to the number of armed agents in Homeland Security and I can divide that number into the ammo contracted and come up with an astounding number of rounds per person. I also noted the ammo actually being used in both Afghanistan and today for training by DHS and am left with a few obvious questions…

1. Why is DHS buying over 15000 rounds per armed agent
2. Why does DHS believe they need more ammo than our troops in a war or the entire Marine Corp in a year?
3. Why does DHS need more ammo that was used in a major theater in WWII
4. Why does DHS believe they need so many armed bureaucrats to being with?
5. Why are they buying so much field ammo (hollow points) when target ammo is far cheaper?

No, the issue is not what I ‘believe’ as posted on this thread but instead why some others are so blind to the obvious questions.

I am reminded of this quote:

“The rules are simple: they lie to us, we know they’re lying, they know we know they’re lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them.”
― Elena Gorokhova, A Mountain of Crumbs: A Memoir

Government frequently says things that just are not so and too many of our citizens who should know better, believe them.

JIMV on March 6, 2013 at 2:42 PM

As for you friend stating that certain SpecOps groups expend more ammunition a year that some entire branches of services, this is an overly broad statement. You friend was talking about the Navy SEALs, whose ammunition budget is greater than that of the USMC. SEAL teams do not use off the shelf ammunition, and they do get in a lot more trigger time than most otehr service members. But, are you really comparing DHS officers to Navy SEALs? REALLY?

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 2:27 PM

I’ll start with this part – you need to work on your reading comprehension. That’s not what I said. What I said was:

Rangers and SpecOps people go through many thousands more rounds per year than regular infantry in training and practice

Perhaps that was not entirely clear for everyone, but I meant that each Ranger or SpecOps soldier shoots thousands or rounds more per year than each regular infantry soldier. I never said a thing about any entire branches of the service – and I didn’t mention the SEALs – my coworker was an Army sniper.

Now, given that I never mentioned SEALS, you might want to consider that the DHS umbrella includes ICE, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, and several other LE oriented agencies. Whether their training requirements meet what the SEALs do, I couldn’t say, but given their missions and the likely proximity of innocent bystanders, I would like them to be well trained.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 2:48 PM

The only ones who are blind are the ones who keep refusing to listen to those who know WTF they re talking about, who don’t want to look at the simple numbers with an unbiased mind and who would rather accept a conspiracy theory than do a little legwork.

Even AFTER the MRAPS story was shown to have been misreported, it continues to be referenced as gospel. The truth didn’t matter.

It’s like debating a Paulbot in his newsletter. Even AFTER he wrote them (well, some of them as he says), the diehards just ukdnt accept it or admit their messiah had deceived them. No amount of fact, of reason or logic, mattered.

Debate a Truther. Fire doesn’t melt steel, they’ll say.

Try to tell a Leftist that Sarah Palin didn’t actually say “i can see Russia from my house.” That it was invention of Saturday night Live. They’ll refuse to believe it.

Same with this.

And legitimate questions get lost in the flotsam and ignored because its better press to call out the kooks than answer legitimate questions from the citizenry.

catmman on March 6, 2013 at 3:01 PM

Yes I do, and do YOU know that Glynco is the main training facility under which the other two training facilities operate? And do you also know that other than DHS, Glynco is noe the primary training facility for almost all federal law enforcement? And do you further know thatthe number of armed officers under DHS is between 55,000 and 60,000, a percentage of their total employee base of 230,000?

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 2:27 PM

Now back to this part. Check the federal register of contracts. Glynco has their ammo purchase orders, and Artesia, NM has their own ammo purchase orders (10 million rounds). And there are other training and practice facilities across the country.

The numbers of ALL “armed” civilian officers across the entire federal government is somehwere in the ballpark of 60,000 to 80,000 – depending on whose numbers you believe. DHS naturally has a lot, perhaps most of those based on having under their umbrella – Secret Service, ICE, Customs, Border Patrol, TSA, and many more. And ALL of these agencies have local training and practice facilities of some kind because you can’t send everyone cross country for recurring training, annual certification, and routine practice.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 3:03 PM

catmman on March 6, 2013 at 3:01 PM

Yes – it’s very irritating when someone pops into page 3 on the second day of a thread and starts throwing grenades at people without ever reading the first 2 pages of posts to find out what people have been saying.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 3:08 PM

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 3:03 PM

And I would point you back to the Glynco site information that says they go through 15 million rounds a year for training all of these agenceis. You do not bring training ammunition to a tranining facility – it is provided at the facility.

And while Rangers and snipers do shoot more than the average infantryman, they do not go through millions more rounds per person – those who populate these units are much fewer in number.

The figure quoted for the USMC was their entire 5.56 requirement – special operations and regular units combined. And the warfare numbers from Iraq quoted in the Congressional testimpny was the entire expenditure of ammuition in theater by all units, with the exception of the Seal Teams, which have their own budget.

No need to get pissy now. If you want to disagree, fine. If you want believe all is well, that is fine as well.

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 5:25 PM

No need to get pissy now. If you want to disagree, fine. If you want believe all is well, that is fine as well.

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 5:25 PM

Go read the first 2 pages of posts before you start attacking people. So far, you just come off as a late to the game conspiracy theorist troll.

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 5:30 PM

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 5:30 PM

I did in fact read those pages, and aside from the ad hominum attacks and demagoguery going on, there was nothing debuking the numbers I was talking about.

And a request not to get pissy is not an attack.

Let’s dispense with the Alinsky tactics of ridiculing those with different views, OK? I am retired military, adn I deal with numbers and facts in front of me. While it will probably make no difference to you, none of my associates retired nor active are buying the all is well theory

I have not been on this site in a while, but this kind of behavior tells me that there has been a significant change here, and not for the better for conservatives.

So, I will sign off and out.

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 5:38 PM

Jim M. on March 6, 2013 at 5:38 PM

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out….

dentarthurdent on March 6, 2013 at 6:01 PM

Drones, urban assault vehicles, hollow tip ammo for Social Security employees, … what more do you need to see in order to understand the democrats, along with their GOP supporters, are the EXTREMISTS working to TERRORIZE us ALL into submission?

‘I’ve got vision and everyone else is wearing bifocals.’

DannoJyd on March 7, 2013 at 4:31 AM

At a time when it is being seriously debated in congress and the press whether or not the govt has the power to whack American citizens with missiles from drones, nothing is beyond the pale of alarm.

Akzed on March 7, 2013 at 9:12 AM

This seems like a ripe area for reform and consolidation within the federal government, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we couldn’t wring out some significant savings by eliminating duplication in law enforcement.

We ought NOT consolidate them; we ought to abolish them.

TXJenny on March 8, 2013 at 4:46 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3