Videos: Pope Benedict’s valediction

posted at 8:01 am on February 27, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

Tomorrow, Pope Benedict XVI will become the first Pope to retire in almost 600 years, and the Catholic Church will begin the process of selecting a successor to the seat of St. Peter.  Earlier today, the Pope greeted the public for the last time before he withdraws into seclusion and prayer, offering his blessings in a variety of languages in this final Wednesday audience.  In his English-language remarks, the soon-to-be Emeritus Pope expressed his gratitude for the opportunity to lead the church, and asked for prayers and pledged to pray for all of us as well:

The AP captured the Pope’s entry into St. Peter’s Square, which filled with the faithful who wanted one last glance at Benedict XVI, and later reported on his address:

Addressing a crowd of thousands, the pope said, “I ‘d like to thank everybody for the help I have received.” He said that he has experienced both joyful and difficult moments as pope.

“My heart is open to the world,” the pope said. “I will continue to accompany the Church with my prayers.

“I am asking each of you to pray for me,” he said.

He said that he was resigning not for his own good but for the good of the church, and he thanked the faithful for understanding his decision to resign.

Some 50,000 tickets were requested for Benedict’s final master class in St. Peter’s Square; thousands more people packed the main boulevard leading to the piazza to watch Wednesday’s audience on giant TV screens.

Sky News gives a longer report of the speech:

He said his Papacy had faced joy, but also had undergone ‘difficult moments’. He said that during his time as head of the 1.2bn Catholics around the world, there had been ‘turbulent seas’.

Drawing on a Biblical analogy, he said: “The Lord gave us days of sun and of light breeze, days in which the fishing was good. There were also moments when there were stormy waters and headwinds.”

But, he said, God would not let the church sink.

He said he had resigned not for his own good, but for the good of the Church.

Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday said he was aware of the “gravity and novelty” of his decision to resign and would “accompany” the Church in prayer even after his resignation the following day.

“I took this step in full awareness of its gravity and novelty but with profound serenity of spirit,” he said.

Pope Benedict told the 50,000-strong crowd he was not “coming down from the Cross”, but would remain in the service of the Church through prayer.

Two years ago, I was one of three million people who filled the Vatican and much of Rome for the beatification of Benedict XVI’s predecessor, Blessed John Paul II.  At that time (May 2011), Rome set up giant TV screens all over the city, so that those who could not see the ceremony in person could still watch it with the global community that had assembled. The piazza which the AP notes is probably where my wife and I ended up for the beatification; it’s right outside the walls, near the Vatican Museum.

This crowd was obviously not as large, but then again, this is no longer the big story.  After tomorrow, the story shifts to the conclave, the cardinals — one of whom will be the future Pope — and the path for the Catholic Church going forward.  The next three weeks should be fascinating, even from a secular perspective, as papal transitions are usually a once-a-generation event. Blessed John Paul reminded the world just how powerful and influential the Catholic Church can be in the world, and how important any conclave may be to history.

Kathryn Jean Lopez adds a thought about the future:

He said, in part: “we have been called to renew our joyful trust in the Lord’s presence in our lives and in the life of the Church.” That, of course, is the message of his final act, to step aside as pope. He leaves this role having instituted a year focused on creed, after a pontificate of catechesis. He does so, focused on prayer, dedicating his remaining days to prayer, in what might be his most powerful role yet.

livetweeted some of it this morning. And some thoughts here and hereincluding from the president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, as he headed over to Rome for a conclave that must be focused on renewal and reform — the Evangelical Catholicism, which is real Catholicism, George Weigel has written about in great detail.

Stay tuned.

Addendum: Here are a couple of posts from my earlier trip to Rome:


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2

Nice

Too bad the lsm could only focus on scandals during their broadcast

cmsinaz on February 27, 2013 at 8:09 AM

Obamaspeed Pope Benedict, thank you for your service.

PappyD61 on February 27, 2013 at 8:10 AM

Pope Benedict XVI on Wednesday said he was aware of the “gravity and novelty” of his decision to resign and would “accompany” the Church in prayer even after his resignation the following day.

Here’s hoping it is precedent setting. Of course, only the Pope can say where the spirit leads him BUT I don’t see “term limits” as all that bad a thing. A vibrant church, a vibrant US Senate, a vibrant company all require the leadership and guidance of smart energetic people. There comes a time when all of us are not as sharp as we once were.

Strom Thurmond and Robert Byrd, for example clearly had no business in elective office by the time they left. Pope Benedict XVI was fast approaching that point. There is something to be said for establishing the precedent of “emeritus Pope” and allowing the incumbent slip off for private reflection and prayer instead of putting the demands of leading the faithful on octogenerians.

Happy Nomad on February 27, 2013 at 8:15 AM

Too bad the lsm could only focus on scandals during their broadcast

cmsinaz on February 27, 2013 at 8:09 AM

Yes. Perhaps some alternative sources for news at the Vatican would be a good idea during the conclave.

Ed Morrissey on February 27, 2013 at 8:19 AM

Too bad the lsm could only focus on scandals during their broadcast

cmsinaz on February 27, 2013 at 8:09 AM

I’ve got to disagree with you slightly cmsinaz. Much as I think the lsm sensationalizes the scandals, it really is part of the story. You’ve got a Cardinal who clearly was playing hide the pedophile voting for the next leader of the church. You’ve got another Cardinal who, even in the wake of all the previous scandals, was apparently hitting on his fellow priests. You’ve got the whole Vatican butler scandal and various shady dealings of the Vatican bank. How the leader of the church responded and responds to such matters is part of the story.

Happy Nomad on February 27, 2013 at 8:22 AM

Yes. Perhaps some alternative sources for news at the Vatican would be a good idea during the conclave.

Ed Morrissey on February 27, 2013 at 8:19 AM

If past experience proves true, the media won’t focus on the scandals too much during the conclave. They’re too busy misrepresenting just what the conclave does and how it works.

Happy Nomad on February 27, 2013 at 8:24 AM

Obamaspeed Pope Benedict, thank you for your service.

PappyD61 on February 27, 2013 at 8:10 AM

Hat tip sir.

hillsoftx on February 27, 2013 at 8:29 AM

I’ve got to disagree with you slightly cmsinaz. Much as I think the lsm sensationalizes the scandals, it really is part of the story. You’ve got a Cardinal who clearly was playing hide the pedophile voting for the next leader of the church. You’ve got another Cardinal who, even in the wake of all the previous scandals, was apparently hitting on his fellow priests. You’ve got the whole Vatican butler scandal and various shady dealings of the Vatican bank. How the leader of the church responded and responds to such matters is part of the story.
Happy Nomad on February 27, 2013 at 8:22 AM

This, +1. The story here and the reasons behind is departure are deeper than the Vatican will let on. One doesn’t not leave the seat of St. Peter for being old and tired. There IS drama in the Vatican at the moment. So don’t be too blinded by the ceremony and the appealing to your spiritual heart strings.

Genuine on February 27, 2013 at 8:33 AM

Pope Benedict seems to be a kind and earnest man, like John Paul II before him. However…

KAL Flight 007 left Alaska on course on Aug. 31, 1983, but eventually strayed into Soviet air space, with fatal results. That’s analogous to what has happened to Roman Catholicism over time: It still proclaims several essentials of Christianity (e.g. Jesus’ deity), but errors have multiplied until it’s dangerously off course.

The question of authority is crucial – the Bible claims to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice (e.g. Acts 17:11, II Tim. 3:14-16); but in 1545, the Catholic Church decreed that its traditions are equal to Scripture (and in effect, are superior to it – when the Bible and Catholic teaching differ, which are Catholics told to follow?).

Catholicism denies the essential Christian doctrine of justification exclusively through faith in Jesus. Catholicism teaches that it dispenses God’s graces; but the Bible says that sinners receive grace and forgiveness directly, through faith in Jesus, our only mediator (Ephesians 2:8-9, I Tim. 2:5, Heb. 4:16). Catholicism says that Jesus’ death did not pay for all of the believer’s sins, but the Bible insists that His sacrifice on the cross was all-sufficient (Heb. 7:27).

Is Mary “co-redeemer,” with power to save Catholics (“No matter how sinful one may have been, if he has devotion to Mary, it is impossible that he be lost” – St. Hilary of Poitiers)? The Bible makes no such claims: Mary appears last in Scripture simply as a member of a prayer group (Acts 1:14).

Even the requirement to bow low or lie prostrate before popes is against Scripture – the apostle Peter and an angel of God forbade mortals to do so before anyone but God (Acts 10:25-26, Rev. 22:8-9).

Tradition has a place, but never above Scripture (John 10:35). When the Bible and Catholic teaching differ, which do you obey – and why?

KyMouse on February 27, 2013 at 8:38 AM

Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 8:54 AM

“Throughout his eight-year papacy, Pope Benedict XVI has “carried out a cleansing of the episcopate,” said the apostolic nuncio to Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tadjikistan.
“This Pope has removed two or three bishops per month throughout the world because either the accounts in their dioceses were a mess or their discipline was a disaster,” said Archbishop Miguel Maury Buendia during a Feb. 20 address at the University of San Pablo in Madrid.
“The nuncio went to these bishops and said, ‘The Holy Father is asking you for the good of the Church to resign from your post.’”
Nearly all of these bishops, when approached by the Pope’s representative, were aware of the “disaster” and accepted the request to resign, he added.
“There have been two or three instances in which they said no, and so the Pope simply removed them,” he explained. “This is also a message to the bishops: do the same thing in your dioceses.”
- See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2013/02/nuncio-benedict-has-carried-out-a-cleansing-of-the-episcopate/#sthash.hkWoslNF.dpuf

Thank you Pope Benedict XVI…And may God Protect you in your continued service as you pray for us.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 9:11 AM

Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen.
workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 8:54 AM

“Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray: and do thou, shall the prince of the heavenly army, Satan and the other evil spirits, who wander through the world for the ruin of souls, the divine power, thrust into hell. Amen.”

Well someone’s feeling cheery this morning! Very uplifting! ;)

Genuine on February 27, 2013 at 9:14 AM

Bring on Cardinal Peter Turkson.

LoganSix on February 27, 2013 at 9:16 AM

Ed, do you think that when Papa Emeritus does into retreat do you think that he will have his brother with him? I can speak on personal reflection for it was during the homily of John Paul II funeral, it caused the proverbial scales to fall from my eyes to hear this Cardinal I never heard of speak of Jesus and God in much a way that I wanted to know more. I advise everyone to listen to that homily for it wasn’t overly emotional but it was a solid masterstroke of who God is and how John Paul II walked the walk. Let’s just say I became Catholic a year after that. For all I can say is this for a man who is truly an introvert it is through the grace of God that he shepherded the Church. If there is one that that sickens me but hey this is the age we live in; it is the “Media Conclave” these folks in the LSM have done such damage to this country however it is not enough for them they have to go after Holy Mother Church. I feel they can’t stand the church because she will not change for anyone and that is something that needs to be respected in a day and age where politicians have no loyalty to the truth.

Scout703 on February 27, 2013 at 9:23 AM

The Associated Press ‏@AP

Pope Benedict XVI :”To love the church means also to have the courage to take difficult, painful decisions…” http://apne.ws/12ayHHf
=========

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/pope-presides-over-final-general-audience

canopfor on February 27, 2013 at 9:37 AM

Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen.
workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 8:54 AM

“Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray: and do thou, shall the prince of the heavenly army, Satan and the other evil spirits, who wander through the world for the ruin of souls, the divine power, thrust into hell. Amen.”

Well someone’s feeling cheery this morning! Very uplifting! ;)

Genuine on February 27, 2013 at 9:14 AM

Yeah…well…

How about this…

TE DEUM laudamus: te Dominum confitemur.
Te aeternum Patrem omnis terra veneratur.
Tibi omnes Angeli; tibi Caeli et universae Potestates;
Tibi Cherubim et Seraphim incessabili voce proclamant:
Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
Pleni sunt caeli et terra maiestatis gloriae tuae.
Te gloriosus Apostolorum chorus,
Te Prophetarum laudabilis numerus,
Te Martyrum candidatus laudat exercitus.
Te per orbem terrarum sancta confitetur Ecclesia,
Patrem immensae maiestatis:
Venerandum tuum verum et unicum Filium;
Sanctum quoque Paraclitum Spiritum.
Tu Rex gloriae, Christe.
Tu Patris sempiternus es Filius.
Tu ad liberandum suscepturus hominem, non horruisti Virginis uterum.
Tu, devicto mortis aculeo, aperuisti credentibus regna caelorum.
Tu ad dexteram Dei sedes, in gloria Patris.
Iudex crederis esse venturus.
Te ergo quaesumus, tuis famulis subveni: quos pretioso sanguine redemisti.
Aeterna fac cum sanctis tuis in gloria numerari.
V. Salvum fac populum tuum, Domine, et benedic hereditati tuae.
R. Et rege eos, et extolle illos usque in aeternum.
V. Per singulos dies benedicimus te.
R. Et laudamus nomen tuum in saeculum, et in saeculum saeculi.
V. Dignare, Domine, die isto sine peccato nos custodire.
R. Miserere nostri, Domine, miserere nostri.
V. Fiat misericordia tua, Domine, super nos, quemadmodum speravimus in te.
R. In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.

****

GLORIA Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.

****
May the conclave listen to the Holy Spirit as they pray and contemplate the election of our next Pope.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 9:43 AM

I’m liking the white suit.

JohnTant on February 27, 2013 at 9:46 AM

Is Mary “co-redeemer,” with power to save Catholics (“No matter how sinful one may have been, if he has devotion to Mary, it is impossible that he be lost” – St. Hilary of Poitiers)? The Bible makes no such claims: Mary appears last in Scripture simply as a member of a prayer group (Acts 1:14).

Even the requirement to bow low or lie prostrate before popes is against Scripture – the apostle Peter and an angel of God forbade mortals to do so before anyone but God (Acts 10:25-26, Rev. 22:8-9).

Tradition has a place, but never above Scripture (John 10:35). When the Bible and Catholic teaching differ, which do you obey – and why?

KyMouse on February 27, 2013 at 8:38 AM

Mary is in Revelations…and as usual you are ignorant and choose to be…

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 9:48 AM

One doesn’t not leave the seat of St. Peter for being old and tired.
Genuine on February 27, 2013 at 8:33 AM

But one might if one thought one’s mental faculties are deteriorating and that the mind could no longer serve. Pay close attention to the words below:

Dear Brothers,

I have convoked you to this Consistory, not only for the three canonizations, but also to communicate to you a decision of great importance for the life of the Church. After having repeatedly examined my conscience before God, I have come to the certainty that my strengths, due to an advanced age, are no longer suited to an adequate exercise of the Petrine ministry. I am well aware that this ministry, due to its essential spiritual nature, must be carried out not only with words and deeds, but no less with prayer and suffering. However, in today’s world, subject to so many rapid changes and shaken by questions of deep relevance for the life of faith, in order to govern the barque of Saint Peter and proclaim the Gospel, both strength of mind and body are necessary, strength which in the last few months, has deteriorated in me to the extent that I have had to recognize my incapacity to adequately fulfill the ministry entrusted to me. For this reason, and well aware of the seriousness of this act, with full freedom I declare that I renounce the ministry of Bishop of Rome, Successor of Saint Peter, entrusted to me by the Cardinals on 19 April 2005, in such a way, that as from 28 February 2013, at 20:00 hours, the See of Rome, the See of Saint Peter, will be vacant and a Conclave to elect the new Supreme Pontiff will have to be convoked by those whose competence it is.

Dear Brothers, I thank you most sincerely for all the love and work with which you have supported me in my ministry and I ask pardon for all my defects. And now, let us entrust the Holy Church to the care of Our Supreme Pastor, Our Lord Jesus Christ, and implore his holy Mother Mary, so that she may assist the Cardinal Fathers with her maternal solicitude, in electing a new Supreme Pontiff. With regard to myself, I wish to also devotedly serve the Holy Church of God in the future through a life dedicated to prayer.

From the Vatican, 10 February 2013

BENEDICTUS PP XVI

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 9:54 AM

When the Bible and Catholic teaching differ, which do you obey – and why?

KyMouse on February 27, 2013 at 8:38 AM

And when they don’t differ, which do you obey — and why? /snark

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 9:58 AM

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 9:54 AM

According to his biographer who last interviewed him 6 weeks before his announcement…Pope Benedict XVI is physically frail.

He is losing his hearing, sight in one eye and has lost a lot of weight. He can no longer perform the physical actions of the Mass like kneeling without help and apparently is in a lot of pain when he does it.

He has had a remarkable pontificate.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 10:05 AM

Wow. Poor guy isn’t looking good at all. I get the sad feeling he won’t be Emeritus Pope for very long… :-(

JimLennon on February 27, 2013 at 10:23 AM

KyMouse on February 27, 2013 at 8:38 AM

You might do well to check your concordance and notice that there are these words: grace, faith, justification, and (last but certainly not least) salvation. Unlike you and your less-than-500 year old religion where all those words mean “salvation”, we Catholics, who have a faith tradition stretching back to the time of Jesus, who provided you the texts used in your Bible, view them as different words, with salvation not occurring until the end. In Matthew, Jesus twice points out that, to be saved, you must not veer from the course — that you have free will, to the end, to deny God. Your theology is way too simple.

With respect to Mary, you say this:

Mary appears last in Scripture simply as a member of a prayer group

Get thee from us, Satan! Even the devil may selectively quote scripture to make his points. What about all of the other places in Scripture where Mary appears? Does not the angel Gabriel announce to her,

“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” [Luke 1]

, and

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit

and, moved by the Spirit, says

And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
.

Further, from Luke 6,

For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit; for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.

Who bore Jesus?

Now comes KyMouse, who in his pride and arrogance would deny the Canticle of Mary, which is part of scripture — that all will call her blessed. ALL — not just those of her time!

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 10:30 AM

Understand you, KyMouse.
:-)

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 10:33 AM

There’s a huge difference between being ‘blessed’ than being co-divine; necessary for salvation.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 10:36 AM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 10:05 AM

I am merely pointing out that his reason for stepping down includes more than a claim of frailty of body. Conspiracy theories aside, if I were Pope, I’d be far more concerned about mind than body — for Jesus himself, as he bore the Cross, stumbled and fell to the point that the Romans conscripted a man from the crowd (Simon) to help him carry it. Even with that kind of able-bodied help at Benedict’s side, he cannot carry on.

I pray for him, as I do for all those who are in pain.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 10:40 AM

As Cardinal Ratzinger and as Pope Benedict, the 4 words that I think best describe this great man (and probably saint) are:

Brilliant
Sweet
Faithful
Humble

We were so blessed by Our Lord Jesus Christ to have this man as our Holy Father.

May God always bless him and give him the peace and tranquility he is so deserving of when he once again becomes Cardinal Ratzinger.

I feel a little sad today. I will miss him. I love Pope Benedict.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 10:54 AM

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 10:36 AM

As there is a difference between having grace and being saved…

Yet I hear nobody here speaking up and saying that Mary did not warrant Salvation, or that she did not attain it…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary

Notice that this dogma, denied by fundamentalists, is held by other groups which, unlike them, trace their leadership lineage to Jesus himself.

It asserts that God gave to the Mother of God special treatment.

And Catholics do not believe that Mary is divine — she is as human as anyone who has been saved and, upon death, merited eternal life. But that’s the big difference — we believe she is in Heaven with her Son, and that, like anyone, is capable of praying for us. Which is why the Hail Mary ends with “pray for us now and at the hour of our death.”

If a fundamentalist believes that someone here on earth can pray for them, then why cannot someone who has eternal life also pray for them?

Of course, since such a thought isn’t explicitly in Scripture, even though it logically proceeds from Scripture, it can’t be true.

Heh.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 10:55 AM

Yes. Perhaps some alternative sources for news at the Vatican would be a good idea during the conclave.

Ed Morrissey on February 27, 2013 at 8:19 AM

As others have pointed out in other threads, EWTN cable TV will have expert and reliable coverage.

Here is the link to its website for live streaming TV if you don’t get this cable channel.

http://www.ewtn.com/

Hit Television on the top of the home page

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 10:58 AM

I just believe the saved in Heaven are too busy glorifying God to be concerned or praying for anyone down here, is all.
Btw, have you noticed just how Jesus treated Mary while on earth ? Not exactly with uber-deference.
Your own catechism declares she, as the ‘New Eve’, was born sinless, and committed no sins on earth.
Scripture claims only Jesus was/did.
Just sayin.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 11:08 AM

Mary is in Revelations…and as usual you are ignorant and choose to be…

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 9:48 AM

In an argument about what the Bible says, anyone who cites “Revelations” automatically loses, having proven their lack of reading comprehension.

Many books of the Bible do have names ending in “s”, but the name of the book in question is “The Revelation of St. John the Divine”, or simply “Revelation” for short.

The Monster on February 27, 2013 at 11:13 AM

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 11:08 AM

When did Jesus ever treat Mary with anything other than respect?

1 On the third day there was a wedding* in Cana* in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there.

2 Jesus and his disciples were also invited to the wedding.

3 When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”

4 [And] Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”

5 His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

12 After this, he and his mother, [his] brothers, and his disciples went down to Capernaum and stayed there only a few days.

Jesus’ word for Mary was “woman”. Does he disobey her? Now, what was Adam’s word for Eve? [Hint: Genesis 2]

So, “new Eve” would certainly be appropriate.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 11:21 AM

In an argument about what the Bible says, anyone who cites “Revelations” automatically loses, having proven their lack of reading comprehension.

The Monster on February 27, 2013 at 11:13 AM

I would submit that anyone who resorts to trying to win an argument by disparaging their opponent’s spelling, rather than refuting the content of their opponent’s argument, is in serious danger of losing the argument.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 11:26 AM

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 11:21 AM

I did not say, nor imply, that Jesus treated Mary with disrespect.
He treated her as lovingly as He did all of the believers with Him.
And when she brought up the wine, He didn’t command it be changed because she asked Him, did He ?
Actually it reads as if she doesn’t understand Him well.
She never told Him to make more wine, so there was nothing to disobey… He did not obey Mary.

Jesus calls me woman, too.
Does that make me the New Eve, too ?
Getting a bit odd over that one, I’d say.

What makes Jesus the New Adam ??

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 11:39 AM

I just believe the saved in Heaven are too busy glorifying God to be concerned or praying for anyone down here, is all.
Btw, have you noticed just how Jesus treated Mary while on earth ? Not exactly with uber-deference.
Your own catechism declares she, as the ‘New Eve’, was born sinless, and committed no sins on earth.
Scripture claims only Jesus was/did.
Just sayin.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 11:08 AM

Mary is filled with the Grace of God…She is the New Ark that carried the Word.

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

My soul magnifies the Lord
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior;
Because he has regarded the lowliness of his handmaid;
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed;
Because he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name;
And his mercy is from generation to generation
on those who fear him.
He has shown might with his arm,
He has scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and has exalted the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.
He has given help to Israel, his servant, mindful of his mercy
Even as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity forever.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 11:49 AM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 11:49 AM

And, that’s why she will be called blessed.
She still needed her Savior.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 11:54 AM

What makes Jesus the New Adam ??

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 11:39 AM

Romans 5:12 – 18

Christology 101

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 12:05 PM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 12:05 PM

Agreed.
Why does the CC call Mary the New Eve, devoid of original sin, AS IF equal to the New Adam ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 12:10 PM

What makes Jesus the New Adam ??

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 11:39 AM

Well, if we are going to thread theological needles: Who is the father of Jesus? Who is the mother? Is Jesus also God?

Think on it a bit.

We are dealing here with the interface of God and man — a place where God became man, through His agency and that of Mary.

Jesus calls me woman, too.
Does that make me the New Eve, too ?

Now, if we are going to use your theology properly — I never heard Jesus call you “woman” using the same word Adam used to Eve — therefore you must be misguided.

She never told Him to make more wine, so there was nothing to disobey… He did not obey Mary.

That’s quite a great non-sequitur, given the passage I just cited. Mary doesn’t treat Jesus as a child — she points out a problem to him, he asks her how that problem concerns him, she then says to the servers to do whatever Jesus tells them to do, and he solves the problem perplexing his mother. Notice that she never answers his question — for she knows it is rhetorical and he will do what she wants him to do.

Why would Mary tell Jesus that there is no wine? What did she think Jesus could do about it? Did Jesus do what his mother wished?

Such faith!

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 12:05 PM

Didn’t notice your response.

Thank you.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 12:15 PM

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 12:10 PM

Did you see the Luke 6 passage above? Given that Jesus is without stain of sin, could he have been born of a vessel which had the stain of sin? When did God remove the stain of sin from Mary?

If you believe the literalness of Luke 6, then you find its antithesis in a Jesus born of a sinful Mary.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 12:20 PM

And, that’s why she will be called blessed.
She still needed her Savior.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 11:54 AM

How do you know that Mary is saved?

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 12:22 PM

How do you know that Mary is saved?
unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 12:22 PM

How do you know she wasn’t ?

Is ‘man’ born of what God calls woman ?
Then He calls me woman. Plus, He’s addressed me as such, in conversation.

So many Biblical happenings were in order to preserve the integrity of the lineage of David, from whom the Messiah was to come. She was, and since very fetus’ blood is brand new at conception (originated by the Spirit) , faith leads me to believe IT was sinless, not the womb. Born of human flesh was necessary, is all, to redeem the sinful flesh from both Adam and Eve’s descendants, and through her submission, He accomplished it.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 12:43 PM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 12:05 PM

Agreed.
Why does the CC call Mary the New Eve, devoid of original sin, AS IF equal to the New Adam ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 12:10 PM

Common mis-understanding of Catholic teaching.

Catholics look upon Saints as though we are part of a large family…We ask our family members in heaven to pray for us just as we ask family and friends on earth to pray for us…

In Catholic iconography the Saints instruct and inspire us through their devotion to God & we remember them…just as families have photographs of family members in their homes.

Mary is the Blessed Mother of Christ. She is the most prominent Member and Saint of his church.

She is identified as the New Ark to carry the Word. For this reason Catholic teaching holds she was created by God, free of the stain of Eve’s Sin (Full of Grace)…The Immaculate Conception. The Ark cannot be impure.

She is the New Eve because Christ is the New Adam.

In the Apocalypse (12:1-16) occurs a passage singularly applicable to Our Blessed Mother:

And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems; and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven; and cast them to the earth; and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod; and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days.

You can read more about it here if you want…
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 12:48 PM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 12:48 PM

I DO understand that that is the church’s teaching.
Just saying it doesn’t exactly agree with the whole of scripture, WITHOUT the interpretation of the Magisterium, is all. Can you locate for me the Sensus Fidelium by which the elders must discern these revelations about Mary ?

Since the Messiah was to come through the lineage of King David, does that mean he/his flesh was sinless, too ?
If the blood of the Fetus was sinless, the womb needn’t be. She only needed to provide the human flesh to be redeemed by the sinless Fruit.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:00 PM

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Recently scientists discovered that children leave their living cells in their mother’s brains during pregnancy and these living cells are present in their mother’s brains for a lifetime.

If this is true for us…It logically follows…

Makes for an awesome contemplation on Mary’s unique role as the Mother of Christ doesn’t it.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 1:00 PM

If the blood of the Fetus was sinless, the womb needn’t be. She only needed to provide the human flesh to be redeemed by the sinless Fruit.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:00 PM

The Word of God cannot reside in an impure Ark of the Covenant.

The Angel greets Mary as Full of Grace. The Angel confirms that Mary is full of God’s Grace…She is Blessed amongst Women…

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01541c.htm

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 1:06 PM

The Word of God cannot reside in an impure Ark of the Covenant.
workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 1:06 PM

St. Paul would disagree.
The Word of God resides within me, and millions of others.
And (God knows.. LOL) I’m far from pure.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:16 PM

Plus, He’s addressed me as such, in conversation.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Not in Scripture. Therefore it didn’t happen.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM

Dont forget to fill out your bracket for the Sweet Sistine Tournament.

http://www.religionnews.com/2013/02/25/march-madness-make-your-picks-in-the-vaticans-sweet-sistine-brackets/

abnormal_1 on February 27, 2013 at 1:26 PM

The question of authority is crucial – the Bible claims to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice (e.g. Acts 17:11, II Tim. 3:14-16); but in 1545, the Catholic Church decreed that its traditions are equal to Scripture (and in effect, are superior to it – when the Bible and Catholic teaching differ, which are Catholics told to follow?). . . . .

Tradition has a place, but never above Scripture (John 10:35). When the Bible and Catholic teaching differ, which do you obey – and why?

KyMouse on February 27, 2013 at 8:38 AM

No, never above Scripture. Equally the Word of God. And the oral and written Word of God will never contradict itself. If you think it does, perhaps it’s your interpretation of the written Word of God that contradicts. How do you know for sure?

Sacred Scripture sprang from Sacred Tradition, the Teachings of the Apostles handed down.

The Bible NEVER says it is the SOLE authority.

This was not simply a teaching from 1554AD. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition were from the beginning of the Church.

You quoted Act 17:11.

The Bereans were not the only ones who referred to the Old Testament Scriptures. The Jews in Thessalonica did also. They dialogued with Paul for 3 weeks from the Scriptures. In the end those in Thessalonica stuck with their prior interpretations of Scripture and did not believe Paul’s interpretations from Christian Sacred Tradition (the unwritten oral teachings of the Apostles) that Paul was preaching, Christ’s Gospel.

The Jews in Berea did accept Paul’s new interpretations from Christian Tradition, and they saw nothing in the Old Testament that countered it, according to Paul’s interpretations. There was no Scripture that countered Paul’s teachings, only the scriptural interpretations of those in Thessalonica countered it. So the Bereans accepted God’s oral “word with all willingness,” (Christian Sacred Tradition preached by Paul) and those in Thessalonica didn’t.

You quoted 2 Tim. 3:14-16.

2 Timothy 3:13-17:
“But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But you, remain faithful to what you have LEARNED and believed, because you know FROM WHOM you learned it, and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are CAPABLE of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and is USEFUL for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every GOOD WORK.”

Note: What you “LEARNED” and the reason being he “knows FROM WHOM he learned it.” Then he also talks about scripture. But the “sacred writings” from his “childhood” were not everything in the New Testament, because they weren’t all written yet. Many of the truths of Jesus Christ were not in the Old Testament or the very first New Testament writings, only some of them.

This passage says that the Scriptures are “capable” or “able” of giving us wisdom for salvation. Well of course. That doesn’t mean Scripture alone. It says scriptures are “useful for teaching.” Of course. That doesn’t mean Scripture alone is the only thing needed or useful for teaching. A man may be “competent” knowing the Scriptures, but doesn’t say Scripture alone or that “competent” means completely competent in all truth. It goes on to say “equipped for every good work,” not “all truth.” Not for standing alone without Sacred Tradition to equip you for all knowledge necessary for truth and salvation.

This passage doesn’t say that Scripture alone completely gives you the full teachings of Jesus Christ, as handed down to the Apostles.

You will not find the words “alone” or “solely” in the Bible for Scripture alone. But you will find passages about Sacred Tradition.

Scripture alone is a Protestant tradition, it is not in the Bible.

I will continue after this with some quotes from Sacred Scripture about Tradition that I have saved to my Word file. But here are 2:

2 Thessalonians 2:15:
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were TAUGHT by us, either by WORD OF MOUTH (logos) or BY LETTER (epistolos.)”

1 Timothy 3:15:
“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH.”

All Christians interpret Scripture according to a tradition whether they realize it or not. Protestants/non-denoms follow Protestant tradition and Catholics (Roman and Eastern) and Eastern Orthodox follow what we all believe is Sacred Tradition, the teachings of the Apostles passed down to us. Only a baby who grew up on a deserted island with only a Bible to read follows no tradition. Everyone else is taught how to interpret scripture from their parents, friends, minister, priest, teacher, books they read, footnotes, etc.

If a 13 year old Protestant read John 6 and says, after praying to the Holy Spirit on it, he interprets “for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink” to mean that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, will his minister or parents say, “that’s very good. I’m glad the Holy Spirit has revealed this truth to you?” Or will they say, “Well, that’s not how we interpret it” or “that’s not the correct way to interpret it.”

Even though the Christians from the first 3 centuries interpreted those passages about the Eucharist as Catholics and Orthodox do today.

We all use Scripture to interpret Scripture. But if someone uses passages A and B to interpret C and they are interpreting A or B incorrectly, then C will be incorrect, as well.

We all pray to the Holy Spirit for discernment, yet Catholics and Orthodox differ with Protestant on matters of faith and Protestants differ with each other, sometimes on important issues, such as once saved always saved, is baptism necessary for salvation, etc. While Catholics and Orthodox differ on the matter of authority of the Bishop of Rome for a thousand years, we all East and West hold the same faith beliefs, same as Christians from the first 3 centuries of the Church. Because we all believe in Sacred Tradition.

The Bible was never meant to be separated from Sacred Tradition. Right before Jesus ascended into Heaven, He instructed the 12 men He hand picked to lead and guide His Church “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.” That was the start of oral Christian Sacred Tradition.

No where in Scripture or in early Christian writings does it say that this oral Tradition ended or that it somehow became written Scripture alone as the sole authority.

Everything that Jesus commanded them was not written down in the Old Testament and the New Testament wouldn’t start to be written for a couple decades more. And even after that, most did not have access to the written Word and it read to them at Christian Masses. Manuscripts were rare and costly and many people were illiterate. Would Jesus really mean for His people to rely only on written Scriptures? Millions of people for centuries?

God bless you and all here.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 1:28 PM

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM

LOL.
So, no one but the Magisterium hears Him speak ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:29 PM

KyMouse on February 27, 2013 at 8:38 AM

The Bible teaches Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition together. The oral and written Word of God, the teachings of the Apostles. They will never contradict if interpreted correctly.

2 Thessalonians 2:15:
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the TRADITIONS which you were TAUGHT by us, either by WORD OF MOUTH (logos) or BY LETTER (epistolos.)”

Matthew 28:19-20:
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6:
“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the TRADITIONS that you RECEIVED from us”

John 14:25-26:
“I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name–he will teach you EVERYTHING and REMIND YOU OF ALL THAT I TOLD YOU.”

John 15:26-27:
“When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. And YOU ALSO TESTIFY, because you have been with me from the beginning.”

John 21:25:
“There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”

Act 2:42:“They devoted themselves to the TEACHING OF THE APOSTLES and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.”

1 Peter 1:25:
“‘but the word of the Lord remains forever.’ This is the word that has been PROCLAIMED to you.”

2 Peter 1:20-21:
“Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.”

2 John verse 12:
“Though I have much to write to you, I WOULD RATHER NOT USE PAPER AND INK, but I hope to come to see you and TALK WITH YOU FACE TO FACE, so that our joy may be complete.”

1 Corinthians 11:2:
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the TRADITIONS even as I have DELIVERED THEM TO YOU.”

1 Corinthians 15:1-3 and 11:
“Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I PREACHED to you, which you indeed RECEIVED and in which you also stand.
Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to THE WORD I PREACHED to you, unless you believed in vain.
For I HANDED ON TO YOU as of first importance what I also RECEIVED: that Christ died for our sins IN ACCORDANCE with the scriptures; . . .
Therefore, whether it be I or they, SO WE PREACH and SO YOU BELIEVED.”

1 Thessalonians 2:13:
“in receiving the word of God from HEARING us, you received NOT A HUMAN WORD but, as it truly is, the word of God.”

2 Timothy 1:13-14:
“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have HEARD from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the TRUTH THAT HAS BEEN ENTRUSTED TO YOU BY THE HOLY SPIRIT who dwells within us.”

2 Timothy 2:1-2:
“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have HEARD from me BEFORE MANY WITNESSES ENTRUST to faithful men who will be able to TEACH others also.”

2 Timothy 3:13-17:
“But wicked people and charlatans will go from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But you, remain faithful to what you have LEARNED and believed, because you know FROM WHOM you learned it, and that from infancy you have known (the) sacred scriptures, which are CAPABLE of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and is USEFUL for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every GOOD WORK.”

1 Timothy 3:15:
“But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is THE CHURCH of the living God, THE PILLAR AND FOUNDATION OF TRUTH.”

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 1:32 PM

I merely believe that I am also a member of the household of God, the church of the Living God, (the Pillar and Foundation of Truth), who is Christ.

That’s the biggest difference.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:37 PM

How do you know that Mary is saved?
unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 12:22 PM

How do you know she wasn’t ? . . . .

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 12:43 PM

I don’t think uncles was saying she wasn’t saved.

We believe Christ was her Savior, as St. Luke’s Gospel says. He just saved her at a different point in time. Instead of saving her after birth, as a toddler or teenager or grown woman or old lady (like the rest of us), He saved her “at the moment of her conception.” Not before her conception and not afterwards.

And we believe she was saved only “by the merits of Jesus Christ.”

We know why we believe she was saved.

Uncles was probably asking you (if you don’t believe in Sacred Tradition and you don’t interpret St. Luke’s Gospel as Catholics and Orthodox do) how you know she was saved.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 1:40 PM

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 1:40 PM

I get it.
Since the foundational scriptures say you must believe to be saved, I just figured she would have to, too.
We’re ALL saved by the merits of Jesus Christ, by grace, through faith.
How does a fetus believe ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:47 PM

I believe she believed in the Messiah, at HIS conception, not hers.
She then knew, through His power and grace bestowed on her, that God her Savior has thus provided the salvation of all.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:50 PM

Plus, He’s addressed me as such, in conversation.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 12:43 PM

Not in Scripture. Therefore it didn’t happen.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM

Touche’ Unclesmrgol

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 1:52 PM

St. Paul would disagree.
The Word of God resides within me, and millions of others.
And (God knows.. LOL) I’m far from pure.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:16 PM

What is this “Saint” thing of which you speak?

I was unable to locate the piece of Scripture which says that the Word of God resides specifically within you.

And some Jehovahs’ Witnesses would beg to differ with you on that ‘millions’ rermark. /snark

Before the written Bible was completed, the Word of God was transferred orally, and there were many acts which surrounded the spreading of that Word, and some of those comprise Tradition. Other parts of Tradition are associated with the practices of the Church — such as the Sign of the Cross (done to communicate to another Christian that you are Christian yourself) and persist today when, theoretically, we don’t need to protect ourselves.

But sometimes we do. John McCain relates the story of a North Vietnamese guard who, while McCain is standing outside his cell on Christmas Day, walks up to McCain and makes the Sign of the Cross in the dirt with his foot — which, after McCain observes it, the guard erases and then walks away.

When you gather in church, do all the congregants “do their own thing” or do they organize, as a body, their worship such that it is pleasing and instructive?

I did find this [Romans 10]:

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.”

Now, was Paul speaking to YOU? How do you know this? Scripture doesn’t say, does it? Is the “you” of that passage YOU? And, strangely, salvation appears in that passage to be much more than faith alone — it also requires an ACT.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 1:52 PM

God bless you and all here.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 1:28 PM

God Bless you as well Elisa

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 1:54 PM

The Word of God cannot reside in an impure Ark of the Covenant.
workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 1:06 PM

St. Paul would disagree.
The Word of God resides within me, and millions of others.
And (God knows.. LOL) I’m far from pure.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:16 PM

St. Paul abhorred Schism…

Contemplate that.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:01 PM

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 1:52 PM
Well, if the scriptures aren’t speaking to ME or YOU, as believers, to whom are they speaking ?
That was one of the most wonderful revealing aspects of my Christian walk so far !

Yes, an ACT of belief, followed by confession and fruit.

I used the ‘saint’ reference in deference to how Catholics refer to the apostles, is all.
And the apostles themselves refer to believers as saints, so there’s that.

And some Jehovahs’ Witnesses would beg to differ with you on that ‘millions’ rermark. /snark

Yeah, I remember those months of Bible study with them, but God stressed much more important Truths for them to see, at that time. :-)

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:02 PM

St. Paul abhorred Schism…

Contemplate that.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:01 PM

You referring to when Peter was chastised by Jesus himself ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:12 PM

I merely believe that I am also a member of the household of God, the church of the Living God, (the Pillar and Foundation of Truth), who is Christ.

That’s the biggest difference.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:37 PM

No, we aren’t talking about who is a Christian. We are talking about truth.

“The pillar and foundation of truth” cannot contradict itself. So it can’t be all Christians making up the “pillar and foundation of truth” all believing different things.

There has to be one objective (not subjective) Christian truth on these matters. And the Bible says it is the Church that is that truth.

Not a spiritual body of all believers. A physical organization Christ founded on physical men He hand picked to spread His Gospel, the Teachings of the Apostles.

Some Christians who love Christ are curently partially joined to this physical and spiritual Church to the extent that they agree with this “pillar and foundation of truth.”

But there is only one truth taught by this Church established by Christ before He ascended. It’s either the Catholic Church (East and West) or it’s the Lutheran Church or its the Anglican Church or its the non-denominational church down the road from me or it’s another non-denominational church near you that may teach something different on salvation from the church by me. or another church somewhere.

What the Church can’t be is all those Churches combined all teaching different things. Cause there is only one truth.

In Heaven all of us who are saved (hopefully you and me, please God) will all believe the same things. Because untruth has no place in Heaven.

Perhaps at the moment between life and death Christ Himself will appear to each person He wants saved and whatever they professed to believe on earth will change when they hear if from His own lips. I don’t know.

I only know that someone can’t go up to Christ and say, I think you said alot of good things on earth, but I don’t believe you are God.

And they can’t say to Him. Your mother is a nice lady, but I don’t believe she was sinless.

Either she is or isn’t. If she wasn’t, then I won’t believe it in Heaven. And if she is, then you will believe it in Heaven.

But “the pillar and foundation of truth” spoken of in the Bible that Christ physically (not just spiritually) founded on earth teaches that she was sinless.

And there are not quotes from the Bible or quotes from the early Church fathers (east and west) from the first centuries of the Church that contradict that.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 2:13 PM

You referring to when Peter was chastised by Jesus himself ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Or was that St. Paul ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:16 PM

God Bless you as well Elisa

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 1:54 PM

Thanks. I need all the blessings I can get. lol

Have a good daty everyone.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 2:17 PM

You referring to when Peter was chastised by Jesus himself ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:12 PM

Or was that St. Paul ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:16 PM

Both chastised St. Peter.

No Pope is infallible as a man in his actions. Just when he formally teaches Christian truths for all Christians to believe.

Jesus said, “get behind me Satan” when Peter wanted to save Jesus’ life.

Paul told Peter he wasn’t acting correctly no earing with gentiles when Jews were around. Peter did that not to offend the Jews.

But Peter always taught correctly that Gentiles too can be saved. Scripture calls Peter and Paul the apostles tothe Gentiles.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 2:21 PM

I only know that someone can’t go up to Christ and say, I think you said alot of good things on earth, but I don’t believe you are God.

And they can’t say to Him. Your mother is a nice lady, but I don’t believe she was sinless.
Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 2:13 PM

Priceless…

And a Good day to you as well.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:23 PM

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 1:40 PM

I get it.
Since the foundational scriptures say you must believe to be saved, I just figured she would have to, too.
We’re ALL saved by the merits of Jesus Christ, by grace, through faith.
How does a fetus believe ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:47 PM

I believe she believed in the Messiah, at HIS conception, not hers.
She then knew, through His power and grace bestowed on her, that God her Savior has thus provided the salvation of all.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 1:50 PM

You have no idea when Jesus gave Mary the grace for salvation. She believed all she was told to believe by God at whatever point He told it to her.

But that doesn’t mean she wasn’t given Christ’s grace before all the truths were revealed to her to believe in them.

Grace and revelation often go together, but not always. Satan believed also because he knew who Jesus was, but had no grace.

Sometimes grace for salvation could come as a toddler before one really understands who Jesus is.

Sometimes grace comes before complete faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior and Son of God. By a few moments or a few years or 16 years till a girl is able to conceive Christ in her womb.

But Mary always had faith in God the Father who is one with God the Son and God the Holy Spirit Who “overshadowed” her.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 2:28 PM

And they can’t say to Him. Your mother is a nice lady, but I don’t believe she was sinless.
Elisa on February

I can. And have.
He’s not struck me with lightning yet, nor confirmed that she was sinless, either.
Just sayin.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:31 PM

But Peter always taught correctly that Gentiles too can be saved. Scripture calls Peter and Paul the apostles tothe Gentiles.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 2:21 PM

It is compelling these choices Christ made of the individuals he called.

He gave the Keys to St. Peter…a Flawed and impulsive fisherman.

He called Saul a pharisee to be his first Theologian, St. Paul.

He entrusted the care of his mother to the youngest and most gentle of his disciples, St. John.

All of them are compelling…

Indeed…He continues to make compelling choices in those he calls to service.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:36 PM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:36 PM

True that.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:40 PM

And they can’t say to Him. Your mother is a nice lady, but I don’t believe she was sinless.
Elisa on February

I can. And have.
He’s not struck me with lightning yet, nor confirmed that she was sinless, either.
Just sayin.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:31 PM

You make a Fool’s materialist argument.

This is evident in your posts, which are not charitable.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:43 PM

KAL Flight 007 left Alaska on course on Aug. 31, 1983, but eventually strayed into Soviet air space, with fatal results. That’s analogous to what has happened to Roman Catholicism over time: It still proclaims several essentials of Christianity (e.g. Jesus’ deity), but errors have multiplied until it’s dangerously off course.

KyMouse on February 27, 2013 at 8:38 AM

so when JESUS said,

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Mt 16:18
you disagree and believe that the gates of Hades did overcome The Church?

Awesome, you think Jesus is a liar. What a theologian. /sarc

Branch Rickey on February 27, 2013 at 2:47 PM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:43 PM

Um, define charitable.
Have only stated MY beliefs, asked for clarity, not attacked any others’.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:48 PM

Awesome, you think Jesus is a liar. What a theologian. /sarc

Branch Rickey on February 27, 2013 at 2:47 PM

Interpreting that passage differently than you does NOT = calling Jesus a liar.
Many, and I am among the,’ believe that it was Peter’s faith and acknowledgement that Jesus is the Messiah is the Rock upon which His church is built is all.
That HE, Jesus, is the Rock that makes men stumble, etc.
Chill.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:56 PM

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:56 PM

Jesus is the Rock that makes men stumble? The devil doesn’t trip us up and entice us? We aren’t responsible for our own betrayal of God?

Jesus pushes us to stumble?

Stop. Just stop. You might be even more of a mental midget than KYMouse when it comes to the Word of God.

I’ll make a deal with you: I’ll “chill” when you actually read the whole Catechism.

Branch Rickey on February 27, 2013 at 3:09 PM

And they can’t say to Him. Your mother is a nice lady, but I don’t believe she was sinless.
Elisa on February

I can. And have.
He’s not struck me with lightning yet, nor confirmed that she was sinless, either.
Just sayin.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:31 PM

I said “in Heaven” you won’t be able to say that. (or I won’t be able to say she was sinless if she wasn’t.)

Because there is only one truth and no lies or untruth will be tolerated in Heaven.

Only truth will be in Heaven and all those saved will then be believing the same things. About Christ, Mary, the Church, salvation, the Eucharist, etc.

And Scripture says the Church is “the pillar and foundation of truth.” The Church founded on the Apostles, who Jesus hand picked to spread His truth. That physical (not just spiritual) Church did not disappear and it could not (since it is led by the Holy Spirit) begin to formally teach untruth. It is still there somewhere.

Either the Catholic Church (east and west) or some other Christian Church. It is not simply the spiritual body of all believers all believing different things. Because “the pillar and foundation of truth” cannot believe and preach both truth and untruth.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 3:18 PM

Branch Rickey on February 27, 2013 at 3:09 PM

I have the catechism, have read the catechism, for many years I lived and taught from the catechism.
And have you never heard of the Chief Cornerstone ?
1 PETER 2 ??

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 3:18 PM

But Peter always taught correctly that Gentiles too can be saved. Scripture calls Peter and Paul the apostles tothe Gentiles.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 2:21 PM

It is compelling these choices Christ made of the individuals he called.

He gave the Keys to St. Peter…a Flawed and impulsive fisherman.

He called Saul a pharisee to be his first Theologian, St. Paul.

He entrusted the care of his mother to the youngest and most gentle of his disciples, St. John.

All of them are compelling…

Indeed…He continues to make compelling choices in those he calls to service.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:36 PM

Yes, it does inspire amazement, doesn’t it?

And you mentioned one of my favorite Scripture passages about Jesus entrusting His mother to St. John, the beloved disciple. Always touches my heart. Thanks.

I once heard the NY Archbishop Dolan quote someone and it went something like this.

It is obvious that the Catholic Church is not of mere human origins. Only a divine institution could have survived 2,000 years of ineptitude and mismanagement.

It is very true. No other government or institution is so old. Only the Catholic Church, both Eastern and Western, united under the Bishop of Rome.

Before G.K. Chesterton converted to Catholicism, he wrote this:
“When Christ at a symbolic moment was establishing His great society, He chose for its corner-stone neither the brilliant Paul nor the mystic John, but a shuffler, a snob, a coward – in a word, a man. Peter. And upon this rock He has built His Church, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it. All the empires and the kingdoms have failed, because of this inherent and continual weakness, that they were founded by strong men and upon strong men. But this one thing, the historic Christian Church, was founded on a weak man, and for that reason it is indestructible. For no chain is stronger than its weakest link.

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 3:23 PM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 2:43 PM

Um, define charitable.
Have only stated MY beliefs, asked for clarity, not attacked any others’.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 2:48 PM

I mean your posts are not charitable…especially toward Mary the Mother of Christ.

I wouldn’t expect you to agree with Catholic Articles of Faith in this regard…

But as a Bible quoting protestant you contradict biblical passages with regards to both the Annunciation & the passages on which the Magnificat are based.

The Angel of the Lord addresses Mary with respect confirming her as Full of Grace, acknowledging that The Lord is with her and calling her Blessed amongst Women.

Mary as she carries Christ within her womb says “My soul Magnifies the Lord”

“And generations shall call me Blessed”

In other words…Catholic Christians respect with Charity the Mother of the Lord.

Perhaps you could ask yourself if you have posted with charity?

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Before G.K. Chesterton converted to Catholicism, he wrote this:
“When Christ at a symbolic moment was establishing His great society, He chose for its corner-stone neither the brilliant Paul nor the mystic John, but a shuffler, a snob, a coward – in a word, a man. Peter. And upon this rock He has built His Church, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it. All the empires and the kingdoms have failed, because of this inherent and continual weakness, that they were founded by strong men and upon strong men. But this one thing, the historic Christian Church, was founded on a weak man, and for that reason it is indestructible. For no chain is stronger than its weakest link.”

Elisa on February 27, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Thanks for posting one of my favorite apologists…

Chesterton Rocks doesn’t he?

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 3:28 PM

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 3:23 PM

Where have I disputed that Mary was blessed ?
That she magnified the Lord (as we are all called to do) ?
The only crisis here, as I see it, is that we view ‘full of grace’ differently, and I don’t challenge your belief in that.
To say that I don’t hold her in such high regard as does the church, that’s true… I just don’t.
I don’t disrespect Mary, unless it’s by the CC’s definition of respect/charity.
No need to convict me of disrespect, since I certainly don’t disrespect you.
Know what I’m saying ??

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 3:34 PM

Branch Rickey on February 27, 2013 at 3:09 PM

I have the catechism, have read the catechism, for many years I lived and taught from the catechism.
And have you never heard of the Chief Cornerstone ?
1 PETER 2 ??

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 3:18 PM

Given the quality of your rhetoric…

I am skeptical of this claim.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 3:36 PM

Given the quality of your rhetoric…

I am skeptical of this claim.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 3:36 PM

Ok. Whatever.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 3:51 PM

Where have I disputed that Mary was blessed ?
That she magnified the Lord (as we are all called to do) ?
The only crisis here, as I see it, is that we view ‘full of grace’ differently, and I don’t challenge your belief in that.
To say that I don’t hold her in such high regard as does the church, that’s true… I just don’t.
I don’t disrespect Mary, unless it’s by the CC’s definition of respect/charity.
No need to convict me of disrespect, since I certainly don’t disrespect you.
Know what I’m saying ??

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 3:34 PM

You dispute the idea of God imbuing Mary with Grace.

Whether you realize this or not your posts are an uncharitable denigration of the Mother of the Lord.

Ask yourself this…

When did God remove his Grace from Mary? (He didn’t)

Why would God remove his Grace from Mary if she did not disobey his will. (He wouldn’t)

Why would Christ on the cross entrust the care of his mother to St. John & entrust St. John to the care of his mother?

He says Behold your mother…

Christ taught us Charity as an action to Love the Lord.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 3:55 PM

I would submit that anyone who resorts to trying to win an argument by disparaging their opponent’s spelling, rather than refuting the content of their opponent’s argument, is in serious danger of losing the argument.

unclesmrgol on February 27, 2013 at 11:26 AM

If you can’t be bothered to spell the name of the book correctly, what reason do I have to believe you got anything right?

The Monster on February 27, 2013 at 3:59 PM

Just for fun … In case we can all still smile, here … :-)
My lifelong friend and favorite nun of all time, just posted this to her FB page …

http://www.religionnews.com/2013/02/25/march-madness-make-your-picks-in-the-vaticans-sweet-sistine-brackets/

Is that nun being disrespectful ? Will have to think about that one. /

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 3:55 PM
As I’d said earlier, our only dispute concerns the church’s teachings on the nature of being ‘full of grace’.
The NT is full of teachings declaring ALL believers as having been saved via His grace.
That’s all.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 4:07 PM

Mary is in Revelations…and as usual you are ignorant and choose to be…

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 9:48 AM

In an argument about what the Bible says, anyone who cites “Revelations” automatically loses, having proven their lack of reading comprehension.

Many books of the Bible do have names ending in “s”, but the name of the book in question is “The Revelation of St. John the Divine”, or simply “Revelation” for short.

The Monster on February 27, 2013 at 11:13 AM

If you can’t be bothered to spell the name of the book correctly, what reason do I have to believe you got anything right?

The Monster on February 27, 2013 at 3:59 PM

I apologize for the offending S

I am dyslexic & clumsy…and obviously not an english major.

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 4:07 PM

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

*sigh*

How on earth could we be one if we don’t have a single shepherd to lead us in understanding? How can we be one when one person interprets scripture one way and the next another? How can we be one when some think one thing is a sin and others deny it? Jesus and God are not of two minds. One does not believe contraception is evil and the other not. One does not believe divorce is a okay, and the other not. Jesus knew things would come along to divide us, and so He gave one man the keys. He gave one man the instruction and authority to “Feed my sheep.” Not once, but three times.

Is it any wonder the world does not ‘believe that thou hast sent’ Him?

Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of death. Amen.

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 4:29 PM

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 4:29 PM

I love that passage, and believe His prayer is yet to be answered/fulfilled.
He is the Great Sheperd, no ?

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 4:32 PM

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 4:29 PM

I see that prayer as in 3 different and distinct requests.

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;
that they also may be one in us;
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Just saying I don’t see that the ‘one in us’ as the only WAY that the world may believe that God has sent Him.
That’s not what caused me to believe God had sent Jesus as the savior.
Would really be interested to find out just how many believers became believers because they saw believers as one in Them, undivided, etc.
Curious.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 4:52 PM

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 4:32 PM

He is the Good Shepherd, yes. But what good shepherd leaves his flock without a guard to protect it from the wolves? What sort of good shepherd lets the wolves scatter and divide His flock because they don’t have a guide to hold them together. No, pambi, He didn’t leave us to our own devices. He left us the Church, the pillar of faith, headed by one man so that we could be united in understanding.

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 4:55 PM

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 4:55 PM

Ok, I hear you.
But I don’t see His sheep left without a Shepherd, is all, so we simply differ there.
Gotcha.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 4:59 PM

“I (the Good Shepherd) will never leave you, nor will I forsake you”

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 5:09 PM

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 4:59 PM

Not sure what you mean by ‘Gotcha’, but I don’t think you have.

Like I said, The Good Shepherd didn’t leave the sheep unattended. He left His Vicar to guard them and guide them. Unfortunately, many sheep have willfully left the fold, rejecting the authority given the Vicar of Christ to ‘Feed my sheep’. They don’t want much of the ‘food’ he is instructed to ‘feed’ them. They reject much that he has held bound. They think they can find their own way, even if Jesus so clearly planned it otherwise. Some may, but many will remain lost.

I’m sad to say the sheep sure look scattered to me.

While we’re being curious, I’d like to know why you apparently discount so much other information in the Sacred Scriptures that points to the Church while holding The Bible up as your only necessary foundation. For example, the Sacrament of Reconciliation aka Confession. How do you interpret, As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Or the Holy Eucharist…

And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.

and then,

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?

After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Do you wonder why Jesus didn’t say, “Hey, I’m speaking metaphorically?” rather than let so many walk away because what He’d said was such a ‘hard saying’? I think it is because He meant what He said, and the Eucharist is His flesh, just as He meant “Thou art Peter” and not “Thy faith is Peter.”

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 5:36 PM

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 5:36 PM

First off, I apologize .. I’d merely meant to say ‘we’re good’.

And, for the rest, I don’t believe He’s speaking metaphorically, but ‘spiritually’.
Is He truly the actual DRINK / WATER to the woman at the well ?
That, too, was a hard saying, no ?

I believe that the Great Shepherd is capable of leading His sheep without any other man, is all.
Yes, He anoints teachers, etc, but there can only be one Great Shepherd, or His church is divided, no ?
The Catholic Magistrate is bound to the ‘consensus’ of the faith.
The Great Shepherd is not.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 5:49 PM

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 5:36 PM

And, does not the Bible call Jesus the Head of the church ? Col 1:18 ?
What more do I need, since He lives to intercede for us, at this moment ?
Doesn’t He ??
Just saying, that’s where I (and many others) am/ are.
We’re good. :-)

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 6:04 PM

“I (the Good Shepherd) will never leave you, nor will I forsake you”

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 5:09 PM

But I told you not these things from the beginning, because I was with you. And now I go to him that sent me, and none of you asketh me: Whither goest thou?

But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow hath filled your heart. But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. Of sin: because they believed not in me. And of justice: because I go to the Father; and you shall see me no longer.

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 5:49 PM

Apology accepted. I didn’t think the ‘tone’ of that fit our discussion. :)

I’d love to continue, but my family needs to be fed, so I’ll have to leave it for another time. :)

Pax.

pannw on February 27, 2013 at 6:14 PM

pambi on February 27, 2013 at 6:04 PM

You are inconsistent…

On the one hand you insist on the literality of sola scriptura in order to support your argument…

On the other hand you insist on a scattered interpretation of scripture when confronted with scripture that contradicts your argument?

You also seem to have no clue as to the use/function of the Magisterium in Catholicism…

workingclass artist on February 27, 2013 at 6:18 PM

Comment pages: 1 2