I think you’re logical, and open minded.
I think religion suffocates these things out of people.
ouch, yeah, I said it.

“A concern troll on a progressive blog might write, “I don’t think it’s wise to say things like that because you might get in trouble with the government.” Or, “This controversy is making your side look disorganized.”"

It had no applicability to anything I wrote.

This is why you are a troll

katiejane on February 18, 2013 at 8:29 AM

I didn’t descend to impish namecalling. You did. Must be awful to have absolutely no defense for a position, one like you now hold.

The real trolls on this subject are those who ruin discussion by sidestepping real issues. Some of those issues, like illegal immigration allegedly backed by the Catholic Church are antithetical to the rule of law and the posture of the threads here.

Lets see, someone who shows up, dodges issues, takes slick positions to protect programs damaging to our country and our traditions on a conservative blog. I think the case is much stronger that anyone in that position is a troll.

You are the troll.

And on a simple logical analysis, your comments don’t even make sense. Sad.

This is the real Christian attitude.

IlikedAUH2O on February 18, 2013 at 12:30 AM

This is why you are a troll. You require others to adhere to standards you don’t think apply to yourself. You feel free to denigrate the religious beliefs of others and then cite Jesus as your basis. At first I figured you were just one more snotty atheist but I suppose it is just as likely that you’re a Bible literalist. Either way it doesn’t matter.

At the same time, we must recognize that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual.

For no prophecy ever came from human initiative. When people spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them.

What is Peter saying here?

Well, he certainly wasn’t saying that second sentence you inserted there which does not appear at all in the passage from 2 Peter you were attempting to quote. Why do you feel the need corrupt scripture by inserting made up sentences? Is it because this passage has nothing to do with the point you are trying to make? Yes it does and I will answer your question – Peter is saying that we can rely on scriptural prophecy as a trustworthy guiding light because it comes from the Holy Spirit of God not the men who wrote it down as servants of God.

So it will take a few years for the Church to make the move, because a punishment like that is an irrevocable move.

Myron Falwell on February 17, 2013 at 7:21 PM

Not at all. God’s Church always seeks first, that the soul turns back to God. True repentance and solid confession reverse that penalty in an instant. It remains one of God’s greatest gifts, though, like proper use of a well-formed conscience, seldom used by the flocks. The evidence is in the strong Catholic New England voting pattern for the poster child of abortion and infanticide. Now that’s a scandal!

The political–is but one arena.

PatriotGal2257 on February 17, 2013 at 7:01 PM

Senator Goldwater’s relationship with the religious right? And how it worked for him?

First, if I were running for anything , this is about the last place on earth I would be.

Second, he failed for so many reasons, I guess you could toss that in. We are talking about 1964, though. BTW, I don’t think the religious right was too telling in the elections of 2012, 2008, 1990, 1994…or most others since goodness knows when. But success has a thousand fathers so I guess the religious folk elected every Republican in the last fifty years.

Third, don’t look now but several Catholic writers are selling books cheap. And they have a multi-billion dollar organization doing some help with the message.

Fourth, the fact that I try to look at real issues makes me a troll. Being a cafeteria Catholic or smorgasboard statesman is the way to go, I guess. Keeps the nuts quiet.

Thank you.

No problem, Concern Troll. :p

Myron Falwell on February 17, 2013 at 7:07 PM

I’m impressed. You elucidate so much with blog name calling.

Okay & thanks for the heads up – you’re a schmuck

katiejane on February 17, 2013 at 6:16 PM

This is the real Christian attitude.

And you, you’re a good little concern troll, aren’t you?

PatriotGal2257 on February 17, 2013 at 7:01 PM

Lady Ga Ga and Patriot Ga. I don’t really get either one of you.

So the quality of a book’s message is predicated by its sales.

You answered exactly none of the points made.

Then you slam with some imbecilic thread slur.

Jesus would be so proud of you.

Well done.

Wrap your head around that…

[workingclass artist on February 17, 2013 at 8:58 PM]

I’d read about that but hadn’t done the transfer to this subject. Thanks for doing so.

That’s a nice explanation, Patriot. I don’t read much in the practical religious genre, so it’s nice to hear of these things.

Placing tradition above Scripture leads to errors such as the claim that Peter was the supreme Apostle (and, in a sense, the first pope). However, the Bible records that Paul did not recognize him as such — in fact, Paul needed to rebuke Peter when Peter fell away from the doctrine of grace (Galatians 2:11). It was Paul, not Peter whom the Holy Spirit used to give us most of the epistles and essential doctrinal statements.

Another example of the kind of error that comes from placing tradition above Scripture is the mistaken doctrine that Mary dispenses God’s graces and plays an essential role in salvation. St. Hilary of Poitiers said, “No matter how sinful one may have been, if he has devotion to Mary, it is impossible that he be lost.” Such claims are found nowhere in Scripture — in fact, the final time we read about “Mary, the mother of Jesus,” she is simply a member of a group that gathers to pray (Acts 1:14).

Tradition has its place, but that place is never above the Bible’s. When the Bible differs from anything that any religion, denomination or sect teaches, I stick with the Bible.

How about you? If not, why not?

KyMouse on February 17, 2013 at 6:06 PM

Mary, Mother of God is Full of Grace and the Handmaid of the Lord.

She is the Immaculate Ark to carry the Word. She is the Woman clothed in the Sun.

“And generations will call me Blessed”

We venerate the Mother of God because scripture requires it, Jesus asks it of us at the Cross when he says to his disciple John “Behold your Mother”

Mary is our greatest Saint and the first of us to be devoted to Jesus.

She intercedes for us because in scripture, she interceded with her son at Cana and he listened to his mother, performing his first miracle.

She as is her son, Christ the Savior is prophesied in the old Testament.

That is Catholic Tradition and Scripture.

Recently scientists have discovered that children leave their living cells in the brains of the mothers that bear them and these cells are present in their mothers brains for life. This would be true for Jesus and his mother Mary.

Wrap your head around that…

But it’s a given that the MSM and the Dems will attack the Church when the excommunications come to pass, and will paint them as being totally vindictive and hate-filled. The low-info voters permanently brainwashed Socialists will believe them without question, and more’s the pity.

Myron Falwell on February 17, 2013 at 8:26 PM

That’s an absolute certainty. The MSM and the Dems have no interest in the truth, either the Catholic Church’s Truth or the truth of why certain U.S. Catholic politicians have been excommunicated. Whereas I might be moved to pity for the low-info voters, I hold the MSM (especially) and the Dems in total contempt.

My hubby was just remarking yesterday that these next several years, or even decades, could be very difficult for those Catholics who try as best they can to live their Faith daily, no matter who is chosen to be the next Pope. The two things that are giving me hope is that as the Left continues to out itself and its real agenda, more and more people are seeing it and and rejecting it, and especially, Jesus’s promise to the Apostles and the Church: “The gates of Hell will not prevail against it.”

The Church has always held that tradition holds equal weight to scripture.

I suggest reading A Concise History of the Roman Catholic Church by Thomas Bokenkotter.
http://books.google.com/books/about/A_Concise_History_of_the_Catholic_Church.html?id=DISK1e7JXA8C

Dusty on February 17, 2013 at 8:10 PM

As I was writing, I was thinking of a few paragraphs I read in “Mother Angelica’s Answers, Not Promises.” [Paraphrasing here:] In her book, she used the analogy of developing film (I think it was published in 1988) and she talked about one negative coming out blurry, the second sharp and clear and the third one coming out blank to illustrate the state of one’s soul in relation to God. The blurry one was a soul clouded by sin and the sharp one was a soul that had received the Sacrament of Reconciliation and had been restored to God’s grace. The third blank negative, as she said, was the most chilling, because there is always the free will a person has that may cause them to say “no,” and turn away from God deliberately and forever.

Good comment and analysis. I’d add that the excommunication as a penalty is intended to focus the sinner’s mind on his or her immanent separation from the Church by those grave sins and to instill a desire in them to return to full communion with it. That is the hope, anyway. A person who has been excommunicated still has free will and can choose not to return, in which case they will have to answer for their sins before God.

PatriotGal2257 on February 17, 2013 at 8:00 PM

Indeed. I was incorrect on a previous post in saying it was permanent.

But it’s a given that the MSM and the Dems will attack the Church when the excommunications come to pass, and will paint them as being totally vindictive and hate-filled. The low-info voters permanently brainwashed Socialists will believe them without question, and more’s the pity.

[PatriotGal2257 on February 17, 2013 at 8:00 PM]

Yes, very much so. It’s good you added that.

Tradition has its place, but that place is never above the Bible’s. When the Bible differs from anything that any religion, denomination or sect teaches, I stick with the Bible.

How about you? If not, why not?

KyMouse on February 17, 2013 at 6:06 PM

The Church has advocated Tradition since its origin. You are writing as if Christendom began 500 years ago, when it actually began 1500 years earlier.

As for how you interpret the Bible — that’s where Tradition comes in.

I recently listened to an NPR program discussing the upcoming Papal election, and the roles various regions of the world would have in it, in which one announcer of Uruguayan ancestry stated that nearly everyone in his family had “converted from Catholicism to Christianity” — the only people left as Catholics were his grandparents. He talked about his aunt, who had gotten “the Call” and had left the Church to become pastor of her own small church, and, proudly, her sermons “rocked”. What was really interesting was the response of the guest — who pointed out that Catholics have a very well defined training program for their pastors — it’s called the priesthood — and that, in evangelical Protestantism, any person can claim to have the call and become a pastor — without any training whatsoever. In one case, the teachings come from above to below, and in the other, from below to above. The guest speaker was an evangelical — not a Catholic — so this particular statement was telling.

Private interpretation of Scripture is against Tradition — for the Church is the final arbiter as to the meaning of Scripture — the rock, as it were. It is against Scripture itself:

So we have confirmation of the words of the prophets; and you will be right to pay attention to it as to a lamp for lighting a way through the dark, until the dawn comes and the morning star rises in your minds.

At the same time, we must recognize that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual.

For no prophecy ever came from human initiative. When people spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them.

What is Peter saying here? How can we discern the intent of the Holy Spirit? How can we be sure we are not constructing our own god? A: The community of believers.

I doubt, given this passage, that discernment relies upon a private party gleaning what they can from Scripture rather than upon the teachings of that single Church Jesus founded.

I should note for those who don’t know a lot about excommunication, it is not necessarily a permanent condition. It is medicinal in character and a penalty, not a state of being, if you will, and not intended to be vindictive, but instructive.

Dusty on February 17, 2013 at 7:43 PM

Good comment and analysis. I’d add that the excommunication as a penalty is intended to focus the sinner’s mind on his or her immanent separation from the Church by those grave sins and to instill a desire in them to return to full communion with it. That is the hope, anyway. A person who has been excommunicated still has free will and can choose not to return, in which case they will have to answer for their sins before God.

Cuomo chose by his own free will to commit heresy. He is in fact excommunicating himself. That cannot be denied.

[Myron Falwell on February 17, 2013 at 7:21 PM]

True enough. This is an a jure excommunication, meaning by law and doesn’t require a judge or jury to weigh the facts because it’s a violation of the law. And it’s a latae excommunication in that it happens at the moment of the occurrence and by reason of the act itself.

So, with respect to what you write above that, the justifiable cause is already established. Maybe you mean the public airing of it needs more justification. In that, you have a point, but it really is rather complicated most of the time. I don’t think so here because of the circumstances, which are:

1. It involves a grave sin,
2. Cuomo is a governor, and as an individual with authority he is making it and no one else has any responsibility for his acts,
3. He does it freely, and is not coerced, and
4. He has the power to make it law, by signing it.

As for the last one, he not only intitates it, he will finalize it.

I should note for those who don’t know a lot about excommunication, it is not necessarily a permanent condition. It is medicinal in character and a penalty, not a state of being, if you will, and not intended to be vindictive, but instructive.