Bad news: That payroll tax cut expiration might not do much for the economy

posted at 9:11 pm on February 4, 2013 by Erika Johnsen

As many of you likely experienced when your first paycheck of January came in, the payroll tax cut officially expired — i.e. your payroll tax was increased from 4.2 percent of your wages to 6.2 percent. As it turns out, eliminating a tax cut meant to help grow the economy, may actually have the opposite effect when it’s taken away. Odd, that.

Via the National Journal:

Thanks mostly to the payroll-tax hike (as well as a tax-refund delay and high gas prices), growth in consumer spending this quarter could be slowed to a fourth of its potential. The eight-quarter average suggests the country was headed for growth of about 2 percent, the economists wrote. But as consumers grapple with smaller paychecks and other special factors, the pace of expansion could come in at a minuscule 0.5 percent.

RBC [Capital Markets]‘s chart shows clearly what that drag on consumer spending could look like. (Note: the orange bar on the left represents the trend in spending growth. The one on the right represents what the RBC folks expect.)

Just watch: If the first quarter’s economic growth somehow, miraculously manages to come in without any significant improvement over the fourth quarter’s negative rate, it will still be “unexpected,” and it will still be the fault of Congressional Republicans and all of their dastardly gridlock — the only problem with that logic being that higher taxes are exactly what President Obama wanted. But, no matter, the Democrats and Obama are going to keep pushing for more ‘revenue’ and government spending to boost our economy in this time of abnormally extended trouble; those tax hikes from the fiscal cliff weren’t nearly enough, seeing as how the federal government knows how to spend money such much more effectively and efficiently than the private sector, and all.


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Was it supposed to make a difference?

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:14 PM

L.i.B. That’s all.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:15 PM

Golly…those Unintended Consequences…well, unless we’re thinking Cloward-Piven…

I got a 2% raise at the end of last year. The first raise in over 3 years.

Net to my paycheck: $3.24

Good think I’ve other sources of income!

ProfShadow on February 4, 2013 at 9:16 PM

Oh yeah he is already on the band wagon to raising (closing loopholes).

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:16 PM

Most average working people took a hit…more to come!

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:17 PM

Growing the economy? How quaint. It’s not about growing the economy. It’s about the fundamental transformation of America.

petefrt on February 4, 2013 at 9:18 PM

Hussein doesn’t WANT economic improvement. And now that he’s past his “last” election, he doesn’t have voters to worry about.

He wants the economy to GET WORSE. He wants EVERYONE on the dole. He doesn’t want ANYONE to be able to eat without his “generosity”.

Once he achieves that he has total power, Republic (in name only) or not.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:18 PM

Mr and Mrs America, your bill. Have the kids chip in a bit this month also. And next and next and next………………………….

Bmore on February 4, 2013 at 9:18 PM

Golly…those Unintended Consequences…well, unless we’re thinking Cloward-Piven…

I got a 2% raise at the end of last year. The first raise in over 3 years.

Net to my paycheck: $3.24

Good think I’ve other sources of income!

ProfShadow on February 4, 2013 at 9:16 PM

Time to look at barter.

After all, if you have a skill to sell, you can sell it in exchange for food or other goods. And unlike the dollar, it’s inflation proof and the value of your skills will never fall to zero.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:19 PM

20k for an average family of 4 or 5 to afford 0care ‘taxes’.

0 you suck big time.

Disgusting, we haven’t seen anything yet!

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:20 PM

The economy? But, but, its Buuuuushs fault. / ;-)

tommy71 on February 4, 2013 at 9:21 PM

Between the tax increase and gas prices rising again, I am back in ‘spending lockdown’…

Khun Joe on February 4, 2013 at 9:22 PM

20k for an average family of 4 or 5 to afford 0care ‘taxes’.

0 you suck big time.

Disgusting, we haven’t seen anything yet!

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:20 PM

And it won’t happen.

That number is so impossible it crashes the whole system. Which is what Obama intended in the first place. It is the perfect excuse to “nationalize” the whole healthcare industry and take it over.

Either that or we all become fugitives from IRS “justice”. Which also wouldn’t be so bad from Obama’s perspective, it effectively establishes complete fascist tyranny, since his department of (social) justice will selectively go after outspoken opponents of the Regime…

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:22 PM

*tommy watching Scrumpy whos on a roll* ;-)

tommy71 on February 4, 2013 at 9:23 PM

20k for an average family of 4 or 5 to afford 0care ‘taxes’.

0 you suck big time.

Disgusting, we haven’t seen anything yet!

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:20 PM

I pay cash today for all non-catastrophic..
I won’t be able to afford paying cash or paying the 40% that the Bronze plan doesn’t cover…

Electrongod on February 4, 2013 at 9:23 PM

Growing the economy? How quaint. It’s not about growing the economy. It’s about the fundamental transformation of America.

petefrt on February 4, 2013 at 9:18 PM

+7%…!

Seven Percent Solution on February 4, 2013 at 9:24 PM

L.i.B. That’s all.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:15 PM

The sooner it crashes the better.

Obama is too stupid to think through the full consequences of his actions. When the country is bankrupt he WILL NOT HAVE the force to prevent states that are sick of all this from leaving the Union. That’s why he’s arming the bureaucracy with all those bullets, I guess he thinks they will be his “civilian” defense “corpse”.

And “corpse” is what they will rapidly become if those ill trained beltway morons try to take on ill trained, but familiar with their homes citizens. Not to mention all the military and ex-military who will be with us…

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:26 PM

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:22 PM

Absolutely the intended consequences.

No doubt in my mind.

This hellish roller coaster ride is about to begin, buckle up folks!

Speak out? If it comes to that, no one will take the risk for fear of what will happen to their families…

The negative comments about repubs and cons have already shaped liberal thinking, we are their ‘enemy’… people to be dispised.

We are the salt of the earth, and yet we mean nothing but unto ourselves…

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:27 PM

Ms. Johnsen, that was kind of a long way to go to say we all just took it in the shorts again.

/just sayin’.

M240H on February 4, 2013 at 9:28 PM

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:26 PM

Lordy I hope so, I also hope that it never comes to that.

I have been trying to figure out how long it will take for things to crash.

Looking to the EU, it has taken many many many years…

Will it happen faster here?

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:30 PM

tommy71 on February 4, 2013 at 9:23 PM

Moi? Why thank you :-)

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:31 PM

I stopped spending on anything other than food, fuel and shelter. Wait until O-care mandates kick in. The economy will collapse, and I will do everything I can to let it burn.

Philly on February 4, 2013 at 9:32 PM

The negative comments about repubs and cons have already shaped liberal thinking, we are their ‘enemy’… people to be dispised.

We are the salt of the earth, and yet we mean nothing but unto ourselves…

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:27 PM

The majority of the masses that are Makers are conservative. The Takers may outnumber us but they are worthless wards of the state, and the only thing they contribute is their votes (to vote for Taker politicians like Obama).

This means that in any conflict started by the central government they will be HORRIBLY outnumbered. Obama’s supporters are large in number but of little value. We, on the other hand, are what is left of what makes anything WORK in this country.

The outcome of that conflict is, of course, obvious and inevitable. That is why any Taker/Looter majority will be temporary and short lived. Atlas will shrug. Even if they try to force us into work camps it won’t work, would you work your hardest (or at all) as a slave? I wouldn’t.

I find it ironic that Obama’s vast (and worthless to society) supporters fail to see that THEY will be the majority who die of starvation in Obama’s “great leap FORE-ward”? Every totalitarian socialist regime in history has had with it’s establishment mass murder and death.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:33 PM

Seeing every paycheck shrink did wonders for me!

/

CurtZHP on February 4, 2013 at 9:36 PM

Everything was fine under Clinton with his tax rates.

Haters gonna keep on hating.

The economy is roaring back, GM is extremely healthy, OBL is dead, and we ate your dog.

/O Regime

CorporatePiggy on February 4, 2013 at 9:37 PM

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:26 PM

Lordy I hope so, I also hope that it never comes to that.
I have been trying to figure out how long it will take for things to crash.
Looking to the EU, it has taken many many many years…
Will it happen faster here?
Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:30 PM

Yes, it will happen faster here than the EU, ironically because our states have far less independence than the EU states. For now…

We are literally in a position where collapse could happen any day now. The dollar IS ALREADY WORTHLESS. The deficit is out of control, and our debt each year SO MASSIVE that the Treasury CANT EVEN SELL HALF OF IT! I read an article about the 2012 deficit. Only 38% of it was actually sold as bonds to purchasers. SIXTY-ONE PERCENT was “bought” by Ben Bernake’s printing presses that print over half a trillion phoney dollars a year.

How long can THAT be sustained? Not much longer…

When the dollar goes, so does Washington, DC, and it will go quicker than most can imagine. Our collapse, when it comes will be as sudden and total as the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990-1.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:39 PM

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:33 PM

I always try to look on the bright side, yes I concur with you, they will be hardest hit, because the dollars that keep them fed housed and clothed will be the first money that runs out.

I fear for those who not deserving of what the outome may be.

Elderly, disabled, the young…always the first to go…

I imagine the punks with arms would fair pretty well on the less well able, then as they spread outward, they will encounter much resistance.

Makes me sad to think that this could happen in my lifetime.

The more I hear and see, the more I believe (reluctantly) it will happen.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:39 PM

How to fill a pool the libtard way:

Take water from the deep end, dump it in the shallow end.

Easy peasy

BobMbx on February 4, 2013 at 9:40 PM

@CP Lol. Well said.

tommy71 on February 4, 2013 at 9:40 PM

O/T has anyone else seen this? These traitors are going full retard in Minnisota on gun control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYLr6u2FyY

jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 9:42 PM

Buh! Wrong link. Here’s the right one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAYLr6u2FyY

The previous link is worth a gander too. Newtown channels his inner Charlton Heston.

jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 9:43 PM

Omg! My iPad is refusing to cooperate.

Here is the full retard link.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/02/minnesota-ground-zero-for-democrats-gun-confiscation-efforts.php

jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 9:44 PM

I imagine the punks with arms would fair pretty well on the less well able, then as they spread outward, they will encounter much resistance.

Makes me sad to think that this could happen in my lifetime.

The more I hear and see, the more I believe (reluctantly) it will happen.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:39 PM

Your average urban gangster thug won’t fare very well in the country, where he won’t be facing a disarmed urban populace.

Still, they will be dangerous, and they won’t go out without a fight. This is yet another reason to GET THE HELL OUT of the cities! If you live in one (I am talking to YOU, AP!) you best be making plans to move away as soon as you can. The cities THEMSELVES will be death camps.

Once the dollar is worthless, so will the welfare checks be. If a day’s worth of food becomes worth more than a million dollars (or if NO amount of dollars can buy it) then food will not be available to the welfare masses.

Think Obama and the liberal elites will feed the poor masses of their cities? Think again. They will try to steal from others to feed THEMSELVES. The hell with the people, they never cared about “Obamaphone” ladies for anything but their votes anyway.

While people in DC starve to death, Obama will be surrounded by his armed guards and be eating Kobe steaks as usual…

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:45 PM

L.i.B. That’s all.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:15 PM

.
Amen

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 9:45 PM

Omg! My iPad is refusing to cooperate.

Here is the full retard link.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/02/minnesota-ground-zero-for-democrats-gun-confiscation-efforts.php

jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 9:44 PM

It’s really really bad and scary here.

gophergirl on February 4, 2013 at 9:47 PM

“Who cares? Contraception is free, and there are no binders of women in the White House.”

MidniteRambler on February 4, 2013 at 9:47 PM

I understand Obama said that he thinks we ‘obviously need more taxes’.

This is because you can’t expand the state and the welfare rolls without raising more revenue, and he knows it… which brings me to the other little gem he calmly dropped in the media recently…he said he thinks that the deficit can be reduced by ‘closing loopholes’. This is simply another way of saying ‘more taxes’.

Allowing the tax cuts to expire is, in effect, ‘more taxes’. It will not pay down the deficit, it will simply be more funds put toward paying for Obama’s expanded welfare state and it will allow him to burnish his credentials as a class warrior with the Democratic base.

Over 100 million Americans are currently on one or more of the 83 means tested federal welfare programs. These 83 programs do not include Social Security, Medicare, or the Veterans Administration, yet they are still the single biggest expenditure of the federal government every year. No one pays into these programs, as they do with Social Security and Medicare, nor do they earn them through service to the nation as veterans do.

Consider: the total population of the nation is about 310 million people. Obama has said that he wants to INCREASE welfare programs funding by about 40% over the next four years. That’s going to require a much larger portion of their income confiscated from the working people of this nation. 22.5 million Americans are either unemployed or acutely underemployed. We have the congress stumbling over one another trying to pander to Hispanics and willing to grant amnesty to illegal aliens without even considering how to pay for the additional MILLIONS of people that will add to those already massive welfare rolls… and to OBAMACARE. How are they proposing to pay for that?

My question is this: where are the GOP? They haven’t even taken him to task for the ridiculous budgets that he’s handed the Senate, which couldn’t even garner a single vote from DEMOCRATS. It seems to me that the days when the congress members we duly elect and send to Washington DC as our literal proxies even tried to give the appearance of representing us have faded into history. If we can’t count on them to take a stand for the rule of law, to stand up for the citizens and legal immigrants of this nation, for the working people who’s income will be seized to pay for this extravagant largess… how have they kept faith with those who elected them?

thatsafactjack on February 4, 2013 at 9:47 PM

L.i.B. That’s all.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:15 PM

.
Amen

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 9:45 PM

This.

Let. It. Burn.

MidniteRambler on February 4, 2013 at 9:48 PM

The stark reality is staring us in the face.

The picture is not pretty.

I refrain from fully seeing it, not at my peril, just that, I know and understand that hunger will drive people mad, I just pray that it doesn’t happen.

Every day the news is more and more dire.

And yet our ‘party’ sits on it’s azz and says nothing.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:49 PM

If Reid and his fellow Dems are demanding tax increases as a “compromise” to prevent sequester spending cuts, it’s time for the GOP to embrace the sequester.

theperfecteconomist on February 4, 2013 at 9:49 PM

I hate to go near the stores anymore. Food shopping is painful and just going for pizza for 2 is a $26 splurge.

For over 4 yrs savings accounts pay back next to nothing (with no end in sight).

And today I see that R. Cordray is looking at 401Ks (just happens that US Debt = $16.5T and counting and all of our 401Ks = $19K) hmmm.

They are again floating a VAT tax.

…and the beat goes on.

Hi everyone

CoffeeLover on February 4, 2013 at 9:49 PM

How long can THAT be sustained? Not much longer…

When the dollar goes, so does Washington, DC, and it will go quicker than most can imagine. Our collapse, when it comes will be as sudden and total as the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1990-1.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:39 PM

.
The SCOAMF can sustain it for quite a while by nationalizing the $ 19.4 trillion in 401k’s, IRA’s etc …

… all in the name of FAIRNESS

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 9:49 PM

Given the lack-luster results of all of Barry’s previous financial moves, this is hardly “unexpected”.

HINT: Barry, get your buddies in the MSM to start making excuses when the economy tanks.

GarandFan on February 4, 2013 at 9:50 PM

People at work keep asking me when their money is coming back. I keep telling them it’s not.

I also have been telling them to pay attention – their child credit, 401K and mortgage tax relief are most likely next on the chopping block.

gophergirl on February 4, 2013 at 9:51 PM

It’s really really bad and scary here.

gophergirl on February 4, 2013 at 9:47 PM

Do they really think this will hold up in court? This not only violates the 2nd Amendment beyond any other violation I can think of but it violates the 4th as well. Are these psychotic democrats serious?

jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 9:52 PM

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 9:49 PM

Oh yes that will come.

Not talked about much since first mentions a while back, but it is in the back of my mind.

thatsafactjack on February 4, 2013 at 9:47 PM
That’s a laugh, said budget is to be delayed…

All I can do is sit and shake my head.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:52 PM

Very elegantly stated, Jackie. And very true.

tommy71 on February 4, 2013 at 9:53 PM

The SCOAMF can sustain it for quite a while by nationalizing the $ 19.4 trillion in 401k’s, IRA’s etc …

… all in the name of FAIRNESS

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 9:49 PM

If it’s denominated in dollars they will already be worthless.

Why do you think the price of gold and silver are skyrocketing?

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:53 PM

Are these psychotic democrats serious?
jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 9:52 PM

Totally serious psychotically.

If they can pull it off there, they will pull it off everywhere.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:54 PM

ooops typo….

$19T in all of our 401Ks

CoffeeLover on February 4, 2013 at 9:54 PM

Do they really think this will hold up in court? This not only violates the 2nd Amendment beyond any other violation I can think of but it violates the 4th as well. Are these psychotic democrats serious?

jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 9:52 PM

They are serious. Hello I come from the land of Keith Ellison and Franken. They are in full power – they are power mad.

The only thing is Minnesota is a HUGE hunting state and a lot of people use the big bad assault rifles. I can’t imagine the Northern part of the state going for this – they would lose a ton of money.

Why do you think I want to get out of here for places south and deep dark red.

gophergirl on February 4, 2013 at 9:55 PM

thatsafactjack on February 4, 2013 at 9:47 PM

With a failing economy and falling GDP, Obama’s 1.1 trillion deficit on top of a nearly $4 trillion budget cannot be closed by ANY means.

I read an article last year that pointed out how pointless tax increases would be, because even if ALL income taxes were raised TO 100 PERCENT we’d still run a deficit of over $100 billion.

They can start confiscating wealth outright, but what will that get them? Unless they put up walls the wealthiest will just take it elsewhere (like we’re seeing in France). If they try confiscating the wealth of those who can’t, what will THAT get them? Most of ours is in our homes or in our 401K’s, and with the dollar dying even as we speak, what will that get them?

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:56 PM

ooops typo….

$19T in all of our 401Ks

CoffeeLover on February 4, 2013 at 9:54 PM

If they confiscate 401K’s they will face open rebellion.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:58 PM

And wait until cities can’t enforce their own crime laws……all part of the plan to FEDERALIZE all law enforcement.

Because when cities can’t police their out of control criminals who are they going to be turning to……like for example Chicago?

Oh wait, REV Jesse Jacckson just called for……..

PappyD61 on February 4, 2013 at 9:59 PM

If they confiscate 401K’s they will face open rebellion.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:58 PM

I agree but it won’t stop them.

gophergirl on February 4, 2013 at 9:59 PM

CoffeeLover on February 4, 2013 at 9:54 PM

Oh it’s being ‘eyed’ alright.

We are a ‘collective’ ya know!

0 threw that out many times, bet it stuck.

He reasoning will be, to harness our savings, will be to benefit the ‘collective’…

Mark my words.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:59 PM

The stark reality is staring us in the face.

The picture is not pretty.

I refrain from fully seeing it, not at my peril, just that, I know and understand that hunger will drive people mad, I just pray that it doesn’t happen.

Every day the news is more and more dire.

And yet our ‘party’ sits on it’s azz and says nothing.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:49 PM

You need to look to safeguarding you and yours. I hate to say this, but in the times that are coming, people won’t be able to afford to be very nice or very generous. If you feed a starving Looter, you are taking food away from your own family, and you really won’t save them, they’ll just be back the next time they are hungry, and they’ll bring more Looters.

Why do you think that “preppers” have suddenly become Public Enemy #1 to the Regime? They don’t WANT anyone they don’t handpick to survive. They don’t WANT anyone to be independent of them.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:00 PM

I agree but it won’t stop them.

gophergirl on February 4, 2013 at 9:59 PM

No, it won’t stop them from doing it, but they WILL be stopped.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:00 PM

gophergirl on February 4, 2013 at 9:55 PM

This is getting insane. Like something out of a “what if” science fiction film.

jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 10:02 PM

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:00 PM

I thank you for your words, there is just me and I am disabled.

I got nowhere to run or hide.

I cannot let the thought stymie me, if it should happen, well, I’ll cope.

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 10:03 PM

Nothing would surprise me in mess we are in Scrumpy!

The Communist “collective” or O’s own special “Social Justice” mantra isn’t going to fly.

CoffeeLover on February 4, 2013 at 10:04 PM

And wait until cities can’t enforce their own crime laws……all part of the plan to FEDERALIZE all law enforcement.

Because when cities can’t police their out of control criminals who are they going to be turning to……like for example Chicago?

Oh wait, REV Jesse Jacckson just called for……..

PappyD61 on February 4, 2013 at 9:59 PM

The cities already can’t enforce the laws. But they don’t care. Think Nanny Bloomberg ever goes to the dangerous parts of New York City? Think any thugs from there can get within shooting distance of the “elite” enclaves he sticks to?

Think Chicago, but 100 times worse, and spread it to every city in America of any size. That is what awaits us. Instead of 500 murders in a year, you’ll see that many IN A DAY as the lawless take what they can take. There are going to be more people dying in the cities when the economy collapses than can be buried.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:04 PM

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 10:03 PM

I doubt it get’s that bad, Scrumpy. It’s tantamount to the progressive ‘vision’ that the producers of the nation keep producing… to support those who will not produce… and that ‘vision’. So, Obama and his kind will keep that stick with the carrot dangling for those of us on the treadmill… we’ll just be allowed to keep less and less of what we earn. Look at the UK for a great example of how that’s done. It takes time. It’s not done all at once.

However, if worse came to worse, Spritely One, I’ll drive down to Lawton and pick you up, personally. We denizens of the Glade have to stick together. :)

thatsafactjack on February 4, 2013 at 10:09 PM

This is getting insane. Like something out of a “what if” science fiction film.

jawkneemusic on February 4, 2013 at 10:02 PM

No one thought the Soviet Union would go as quickly or as completely as they did.

And I was in school at the time, and my passion was studying history and current events. Even as much as I hated it I couldn’t foresee a world without the Evil Empire.

The same will happen to the DC Regime (I won’t even call it our American Republic anymore because it’s long ceased to be), and for the exact same reasons. The Soviet Union fell because it was bankrupt, it’s currency was worthless, and it’s oppressed population spread across a gigantic country couldn’t out produce the state of Texas.

We are just as vulnerable to the same scenario, and becoming more so. The USSR couldn’t afford to maintain it’s military and it’s socialist state. The same crisis is hitting us, now, accelerated and exacerbated by at least 1-2 generations by Obama.

Could it be kicked down the road some? Sure, but Obama has the spending knob turned up to 11 and he’s hellbent on keeping it there. Spending isn’t going to be cut, the economy is going to produce less and less, and it’s headed for total destruction.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:10 PM

I doubt it get’s that bad, Scrumpy. It’s tantamount to the progressive ‘vision’ that the producers of the nation keep producing… to support those who will not produce… and that ‘vision’. So, Obama and his kind will keep that stick with the carrot dangling for those of us on the treadmill… we’ll just be allowed to keep less and less of what we earn. Look at the UK for a great example of how that’s done. It takes time. It’s not done all at once. thatsafactjack on February 4, 2013 at 10:09 PM

You are correct in how the UK went down. But they had the wisdom to turn up the heat gradually.

Obama is throwing us into boiling water all at once.

He’s trying to do in 8 years what took Europe 8 DECADES to “achieve”. For every action, there will be an equal and opposite reaction…

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:12 PM

thatsafactjack on February 4, 2013 at 10:09 PM

You warmed the cockles of my heart!! Such kindness Jackie. Thank you… God Bless you… :-)

Yes, I think about his ‘vision’ and he cannot let it collapse, but maybe the wheels are already in motion, he can but take, and keep making the dollar worthless.

So many businesses are scheduling closures.

How many new start-ups are there to counter this?

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 10:16 PM

Why do you think the price of gold and silver are skyrocketing?

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:53 PM

.
Let’s not get to excited about gold & silver prices yet. Neither is near it’s recent highs and both are excellent hedges of wealth – historically that has been their purpose when fiat money was being devalued. Wealth does not mean you have to be rich, it just means you have some money set aside for a rainy day, retirement, whatever.

I would not recommend anyone go ALL IN on gold & silver either. You don’t want to put money into gold/silver and then need to sell if the price goes down.

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 10:18 PM

Bad news:

…you have 4 more years of this asswhole!
now that the inauguration is over…you can start paying at the pump again…so JugEars can go after the oil companies again!

KOOLAID2 on February 4, 2013 at 10:24 PM

.
Let’s not get to excited about gold & silver prices yet. Neither is near it’s recent highs and both are excellent hedges of wealth – historically that has been their purpose when fiat money was being devalued. Wealth does not mean you have to be rich, it just means you have some money set aside for a rainy day, retirement, whatever.

I would not recommend anyone go ALL IN on gold & silver either. You don’t want to put money into gold/silver and then need to sell if the price goes down.

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 10:18 PM

The dollar is so doomed at this point that I don’t think it will ever go down again at least against the dollar.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM

Let Obama have what he wants. And let him own the economic calamity. Look. I don’t want that – I paid 6 figures in taxes last year and set to do the same this year. I don’t wantto pay more, but some people have to learn the hard way.

besser tot als rot on February 4, 2013 at 10:28 PM

They can start confiscating wealth outright, but what will that get them? Unless they put up walls the wealthiest will just take it elsewhere (like we’re seeing in France). If they try confiscating the wealth of those who can’t, what will THAT get them? Most of ours is in our homes or in our 401K’s, and with the dollar dying even as we speak, what will that get them?

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:56 PM

.
The walls are already up.

If you try to move large amounts of money offshore – the banks acting under a federal order will freeze 20% of it a

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 10:30 PM

If you try to move large amounts of money offshore – the banks acting under a federal order will freeze 20% of it a

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 10:30 PM

Move it 19.9% of the time then.

There are ways. Look, the government is gigantic, it’s malevolent, it’s powerful, but it’s also stupid. And even if it weren’t it can’t herd 300 million cats.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:33 PM

The eight-quarter average suggests the country was headed for growth of about 2 percent, the economists wrote. But as consumers grapple with smaller paychecks and other special factors, the pace of expansion could come in at a minuscule 0.5 percent.

Aw shoot, who’d have thunk it?

Jackalope on February 4, 2013 at 10:35 PM

The walls are already up.

If you try to move large amounts of money offshore – the banks acting under a federal order will freeze 20% of it a

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 10:30 PM


Ok, that was wierd …

… acting under a federal order will freeze 20% of it and flag your effort back to the government.

The Swiss pegged their Swiss franc to the euro as a dual purpose F.U. to the Obama administration’s war on anonymous Swiss bank accounts and Ben Bernanke’s exporting of deflation via Quantitative Easing.

If you want to be REALLY upset? Google articles on extremely wealthy Chinese expatriates immigrating to the United States with money they siphoned off as members of the Chinese Communist Party ruling elite.

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Sigh. This is a pretty dire discussion, but I can’t say I disagree with any of it.

Jackalope on February 4, 2013 at 10:43 PM

Looking to the EU, it has taken many many many years…

Will it happen faster here?

Scrumpy on February 4, 2013 at 9:30 PM

Cascade Effect.

A lot faster and a lot harder.

Solaratov on February 4, 2013 at 10:44 PM

There are ways. Look, the government is gigantic, it’s malevolent, it’s powerful, but it’s also stupid. And even if it weren’t it can’t herd 300 million cats.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:33 PM

.
You misunderstood … it is not 20% of your net worth.

It is 20% of anything the government deems suspicious – whether you do it $ 10,000 at a time or $ 10,000,000.

It is ALL watched ALL the time via EVERY electronic transfer on EVERY system. Oh, and if you withdraw $ 10,000 or more in cash … the banks report that as well.

And having pierced the veil of Switzerland, they TAX any earnings just the same as if it was in the U.S.

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

Persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware of the fact that renunciation of U.S. citizenship may have no affect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship does not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

.
This went into effect in July 2010.

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 10:46 PM

The dollar is so doomed at this point that I don’t think it will ever go down again at least against the dollar.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 10:27 PM

.
I am really not trying to be difficult but the situation is complicated.

The EU/euro are doomed. The Official French government unemployment statistic is 10.5%.

Italy is 11.1%, Spain is 26.6%, Greece is 26.8%

Anyone telling you “Europe is fixed.” is lying, a fool, or both.

If they sucked all the wealth out of Germany, they would STIL be tens of trillions of euro’s short of paying off the bad debt.

When the euro “breaks” the dollar’s value is going ballistic.

It won’t last long but there will be a period of time when the DXY index indicates the dollar is literally worth MORE than a dollar (100.00) … as opposed to the current value of 79.67

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 11:01 PM

When the euro “breaks” the dollar’s value is going ballistic.

It won’t last long but there will be a period of time when the DXY index indicates the dollar is literally worth MORE than a dollar (100.00) … as opposed to the current value of 79.67

PolAgnostic on February 4, 2013 at 11:01 PM

The Euro’s fall is the only thing propping up the dollar right now. That, and the fact that China to a large degree MUST save the dollar or face the collapse of their own economy.

IE: if they don’t have us to sell to their factories shut down and their state slave population loses their jobs and think about taking it out on Bejing…

But that also is going to be a temporary thing. China, Russia, other countries are already working on replacing the dollar with another reserve currency. They are buying gold and silver like crazy.

China right now literally has the power to erase the United States as a world power by removing their support for the dollar. Sooner or later they will feel that in their best interest.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 11:27 PM

My question is this: where are the GOP? They haven’t even taken him to task for the ridiculous budgets that he’s handed the Senate, which couldn’t even garner a single vote from DEMOCRATS. It seems to me that the days when the congress members we duly elect and send to Washington DC as our literal proxies even tried to give the appearance of representing us have faded into history. If we can’t count on them to take a stand for the rule of law, to stand up for the citizens and legal immigrants of this nation, for the working people who’s income will be seized to pay for this extravagant largess… how have they kept faith with those who elected them?

thatsafactjack on February 4, 2013 at 9:47 PM

Jack, the GOP believe they will still have a seat at the table (like they do now, uh-huh) after the Zero Regime is done using and abusing them like a bighouse b!tch. They have been in fantasy DC land so long, they believe the mantra, “To get along you gotta go along” and that at the end of the day for them, at least things will be business as usual. And, as usual, they are going to be completely blindsided. To them, it was never about keeping the faith of those who elected them – it’s about money and power. Unfortunately for the ‘Pubs, the ‘money and power’ is close to becoming bubblegum and d*ck and they are going to find themselves without bubblegum.

ghostwalker1 on February 4, 2013 at 11:56 PM

Jack, the GOP believe they will still have a seat at the table (like they do now, uh-huh) after the Zero Regime is done using and abusing them like a bighouse b!tch. They have been in fantasy DC land so long, they believe the mantra, “To get along you gotta go along” and that at the end of the day for them, at least things will be business as usual. And, as usual, they are going to be completely blindsided. To them, it was never about keeping the faith of those who elected them – it’s about money and power. Unfortunately for the ‘Pubs, the ‘money and power’ is close to becoming bubblegum and d*ck and they are going to find themselves without bubblegum.

ghostwalker1 on February 4, 2013 at 11:56 PM

The GOP is dead. The TEA Party gave it it’s last chance for revival in 2010 which it threw away in 2012.

Really, any party that opposes Obama (to any degree at all, even slightly as the GOP does) is dead right now. The Looters have a majority, after all.

The consequence of that is, of course, inevitable. Looters can never remain a majority for long.

wildcat72 on February 5, 2013 at 12:02 AM

Obama is too stupid to think through the full consequences of his actions.

wildcat72 on February 4, 2013 at 9:26 PM

People, please STOP being NAIVE. Hussein knows exactly what he is doing. EXACTLY. Nothing short of destruction of this once great country will do and so far each and every time we give him a benefit of a doubt by somehow labeling as “incompetent”. All the while he is doing a splendid job of utter destruction of all of us having the ultimate last laugh.

And the absolute irony of this whole scenario is that we will be paying for Moochelle’s lobsters and Hussein’s bath trysts for the rest of their lives.

riddick on February 5, 2013 at 12:18 AM

People, please STOP being NAIVE. Hussein knows exactly what he is doing. EXACTLY. Nothing short of destruction of this once great country will do and so far each and every time we give him a benefit of a doubt by somehow labeling as “incompetent”. All the while he is doing a splendid job of utter destruction of all of us having the ultimate last laugh.

And the absolute irony of this whole scenario is that we will be paying for Moochelle’s lobsters and Hussein’s bath trysts for the rest of their lives.

riddick on February 5, 2013 at 12:18 AM

Maybe I should have explained more. I’m not saying that Obama doesn’t know what he’s doing. And I didn’t mean he’s an idiot. However, he IS stupid. Because he has no understanding of American culture or our history he has no idea WHAT he is provoking.

The better word might be “ignorant”.

What he doesn’t understand is that his plan for destroying the Republic will inevitably lead to HIS OWN destruction. Once all hell breaks lose he can’t control that which he is creating.

He doesn’t realize he will be Hitler in the bunker in DC, surrounded by starving masses in DC, ruling a government that doesn’t extend past his domain, and it won’t last any longer than his armed guards have food.

wildcat72 on February 5, 2013 at 12:25 AM

Good thing the economy is roaring at -.01% or we may be in a double dip recession.

Who knew Keynesianism would fail….again?

Anyone with a lick of common sense.

dthorny on February 5, 2013 at 12:31 AM

More money for Big Gov!!!! A liberal’s dream.

CW on February 5, 2013 at 7:28 AM

c e a u s e s c u

freedomfirst on February 5, 2013 at 8:04 AM

Meh. Someone somewhere can always produce a graph showing that the economy would be better off in the short run if the deficit were made bigger (whether it’s made bigger by spending or by a poorly designed tax cut). That’s why we’re in the deficit mess that we’re in. We have to stop thinking in terms of short-term GDP and focus on the bigger picture.

The payroll tax cut was a joke because if you cut Soc Sec’s payroll tax, you either have to a) cut the benefits that the payroll tax funds, or b) make up the Soc Sec revenue with income taxes. They didn’t want to do the former, so they did the latter — transferring over $200 B in income-tax-financed bonds to the Soc Sec trust fund. Taxpayers are still paying for the same amount of benefits with or without the payroll tax cut; all the payroll tax cut did was transfer part of the burden to the half of America who pays income taxes. Good riddance to it.

Chuckles3 on February 5, 2013 at 8:20 AM

As it turns out, eliminating a tax cut meant to help grow the economy, may actually have the opposite effect when it’s taken away. Odd, that.

Heretic! You will be burned at the stake!!!

More seriously, I’ve become really tired of people who practice Fisher Price economics. I guess everything really does look better in Crayola.

Physics Geek on February 5, 2013 at 8:27 AM

That payroll tax cut expiration might not do much for the economy

Quel surprise!

College Prof on February 5, 2013 at 8:49 AM

Payroll tax funds social security and medicare. When they cut PT’s they exacerbated the entitlement shortfall.

Idiots.

MarkT on February 5, 2013 at 8:50 AM

Funny that with all the weeping and gnashing of teeth, no one here is suggesting the obvious: Flee the United States. Get out of Dodge. There are plenty of growing economies in the world, with peaceful stable governments, that welcome hard workers.

It’s almost as if this thread has turned into a place where everyone is saying the worst possible outcome in the hopes that someone will say “No! It can’t be that bad!”

Yes it is, folks. It is that bad. Don’t let normalcy bias give you false hope. Don’t be one of the Jews that stayed in Germany in 1930.

JoseQuinones on February 5, 2013 at 12:58 PM

Funny that with all the weeping and gnashing of teeth, no one here is suggesting the obvious: Flee the United States. Get out of Dodge. There are plenty of growing economies in the world, with peaceful stable governments, that welcome hard workers.

Don’t be one of the Jews that stayed in Germany in 1930.

JoseQuinones on February 5, 2013 at 12:58 PM

Yeah, flee to Poland or France instead…

Where precisely do we go, oh master of the mind, that is A: remotely as prosperous, and B: will not be easy pickings once Uncle Sam is no longer around to babysit?

MelonCollie on February 5, 2013 at 2:46 PM