The “clip vs magazine” crisis

posted at 10:01 am on February 2, 2013 by Jazz Shaw

The current gun debate has brought an old, familiar bugaboo back into the limelight, and it’s one most of you have probably seen. It comes in the form of critics rising up and taking umbrage with commentators substituting the word “clip” for “magazine” when talking about weapons technology. I’ve lost count of the number of tweets, blog posts and articles which decry the error and seek to dismiss the arguments being made. This avenue of attack is based on the speaker or author’s failure to understand the fundamental mechanics of weaponry, leading to the assumption that the rest of their argument must therefore be specious.

The first thing to point out is that these critics are absolutely correct on the technical merits. A clip and a magazine are two different animals, and most younger gun buyers today – particularly civilian, sport shooters – are unlikely to have ever seen a clip. You can find a nice review of the difference between them here, but a shorter answer will suffice. A magazine feeds rounds into the chamber of the weapon, is generally spring loaded, and is part of the firing / reloading process for the gun. A clip traditionally held rounds in a set configuration, generally by the base, and facilitated loading into the magazine.

Unfortunately, over a long period of casual use, the two words have begun to merge. It’s an easy mistake to make. I’ve made it myself. Heck… so has Wayne LaPierre for that matter. That doesn’t make it right, but it falls into a pattern which has been plaguing logophiles for ages… the sad fact is that words evolve over time, often to their detriment. And when they are used incorrectly for a long enough period by enough people, the “new definition” takes root and it’s pretty much impossible to exterminate.

There are tons of examples to be found. One of my “favorite” (as in pet peeve) entries in the category is hoi polloi. The original meaning of the phrase was “the common people,” referring to the great unwashed masses. It was actually a derogatory term. But it’s a fancy sounding phrase, and confused writers began using it to refer to the upper crust, elite. That was done so often that modern reference works now actually refer to both as correct usage. The word was turned on its head.

Further fun – or tragic, depending on your point of view – examples abound. Did you know that “awful” originally meant, “‘full of awe’ i.e. something wonderful, delightful, amazing?” The word Manufacture was first used to reference things made by hand with artisan craftsmanship. Counterfeit was a compliment, meaning “a perfect copy” and a “punk” once meant a prostitute or harlot. Whether we like it or not, words evolve. And “clip” has slowly but surely begun muscling its way into the language as a casual alternate meaning for a magazine.

That doesn’t mean you’re wrong to try to correct people, but there’s a downside to it as well. When we fall back on sniping over technical tap dances out of the dictionary over differences in terminology which have little practical effect on the subject at hand, it seems to weaken the argument. There are so many stronger, valid criticisms to be made of the pitch being given by gun grabbers, and resorting to the, “nanny nanny boo boo, you don’t know what a magazine is” argument just makes it look as if the speaker has run out of valid objections. And please keep in mind that I don’t say this from a position of somebody defending David Gregory here. Any review of all my columns on Second Amendment issues will show that I’ve been right up there with the strongest defenders of gun owners’ rights you’re likely to find, and I remain so to this day. I’m also something of a nitpicker myself when it comes to a love of words. But this argument, as satisfying as some may find it to use, really doesn’t seem to be helping anything.


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I agree. Just like the word “automatic.” We should stop criticizing writers who refer to modern sporting rifles as “automatic military style assault weapons,” because clearly, after 30 years, the definition of all of those words has evolved to mean whatever the progressives want it to mean.

People aren’t complaining over word usage because they’re word nazis, they’re doing it because the progressives have a nasty habit of inventing “newspeak” words, or changing definitions of words.

So you’re right, keeping tax rates the same is a tax cut, increasing taxes is now “revenue enhancements” etc etc.

Thanks Jazz!

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:08 AM

Definitions change over time, yes. Speaking only for myself, I disdain the Left for trying to lecture us about guns when they can’t get even the basics right. For example, you never use the term ‘gun’ when talking about your rifle in the Marines.

Words have meaning, and if anti-gun liberals can’t get such a tiny matter right, they have no business getting on a soapbox and telling us we’re mad-dog killers-in-waiting because we want 30-round magazines.

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 10:09 AM

BUT DON’T CALL A PROGRESSIVE A SOCIALIST or they will pull out a dictionary and quibble non stop about how they’re NOT socialists because they don’t seek government control over ALL means of production, just some.

So sometimes words matter, sometimes they don’t depending on which words they are and who is saying them and in what context.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:10 AM

…the gun was happy to see me?

KOOLAID2 on February 2, 2013 at 10:10 AM

Just bought a Remington 1903 made in 1944 yesterday. You know, the ubiquitous A303 licensed to Remington for war production. Bolt action 30-06 5 rnd. stripper to charge the magazine. Under the AWB it would be considered as an assault weapon due to the bayonet lug.

vinceautmorire on February 2, 2013 at 10:11 AM

I may not totally understand the difference between a “clip” and a “magazine,” call me crazy, but, I don’t think that gun will shoot with a banana in it.

Fallon on February 2, 2013 at 10:12 AM

And remember, you aren’t buying bullets: they are cartridges. The bullet is the piece of metal coming out of the barrel.

:P

DavidM on February 2, 2013 at 10:13 AM

I’d clip this article out of a magazine but we’ve evolved.

DanMan on February 2, 2013 at 10:14 AM

I may not totally understand the difference between a “clip” and a “magazine,” call me crazy, but, I don’t think that gun will shoot with a banana in it.

Fallon on February 2, 2013 at 10:12 AM

It will with a military style assault banana.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:14 AM

My “favorite” is “begs the question”. I can’t count how many supposed smart people use that term but fail to know what it really means.

SuperBunny on February 2, 2013 at 10:14 AM

The concepts of automatic and semi-automatic need to be preserved and clarified wherever possible. I have no problem reinforcing the clip/magazine distinction with people for the same reason. Vernacular may evolve, but this verbiage carries important distinctions in concept with it.

I can call a pistol a revolver all day and that won’t make it so. When we cede precision in verbiage while making our stances clear, we have lost a very important battle.

hungrymongo on February 2, 2013 at 10:14 AM

. Counterfeit was a compliment, meaning “a perfect copy” and a “punk” once meant a prostitute or harlot. Whether we like it or not, words evolve.

…yep!…into a president!…named JugEars!

KOOLAID2 on February 2, 2013 at 10:16 AM

I agree. Just like the word “automatic.” We should stop criticizing writers who refer to modern sporting rifles as “automatic military style assault weapons,” because clearly, after 30 years, the definition of all of those words has evolved to mean whatever the progressives want it to mean.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:08 AM

“Automatic rifle” means something very specific though, and we lose MAJOR ground in defending the second amendment when we cede that particular argument.

For almost 80 years, it has been extremely difficult to legally procure and possess weapons that can fire continuously as long as the trigger is held. This has always been the basis on which “military-grade weaponry” has been defined. The gun grabbers seek to redefine “military grade” in a manner that will be a direct and egregious violation of the 2nd amendment(…the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed).

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:16 AM

It will with a military style assault banana.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:14 AM

I prefer fully-automatic bolt action mangos, myself.

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 10:16 AM

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 10:09 AM

this a rifle
this is agun
one is for killing
one is for fun

DanMan on February 2, 2013 at 10:17 AM

This has always been the basis on which “military-grade weaponry” has been defined. The gun grabbers seek to redefine “military grade” in a manner that will be a direct and egregious violation of the 2nd amendment(…the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed).

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:16 AM

Yeah, I know. I’m being facetious. The media / progressives just use wildly inaccurate “scary sounding” words to describe mundane things like a semi automatic rifle.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:18 AM

Yeah, “clip” vs. “magazine,” don’t make the mistake but don’t call anybody out on it, either – it’s counterproductive.

EFM on February 2, 2013 at 10:19 AM

Yeah, I know. I’m being facetious. The media / progressives just use wildly inaccurate “scary sounding” words to describe mundane things like a semi automatic rifle.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:18 AM

Sorry Tim. I missed the sarc tag. ;)

Anyhow, I think that Piers “Pierced Organ” Morgan has made a total ass of himself in far funnier ways than just confusing a clip with a magazine.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:20 AM

I prefer fully-automatic bolt action mangos, myself.

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 10:16 AM

I took my manual load skeet shooting apple-loader out last night to practice up in case I get invited to Obamas next skeet shoot.

Can never be too prepared.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:23 AM

Assault Weapon? Semi Automatic ? Foldable stock? All evil black gun thingys, that are only designed to create mass killings in schools. Hey Libs if you don’t know what you’re talking about , shut up, go get your self a latte, and wallow in your ignorance with the rest of your elitist buddies. We’ve stopped listening and caring what you say or do. And by the way I carry both openly and concealed, don’t like it. MYOFB !

stormridercx4 on February 2, 2013 at 10:23 AM

Ban barrel shrouds because shrouds are for dead people. Ban standard capacity magazines by relabeling them high capacity. Semi-automatic rifles are ‘military style’. Oh no, words don’t matter at all because as we’re told: We must pass the law before you get to know what’s in it. All that pesky reading is too hard. Just let some bureaucrat do it, and if we don’t like what he’s doing we’ll hire more of them.

Of course, everybody slips up and uses the wrong word occasionally. But to give someone a pass when they’re purposefully misusing it for propaganda purposes is naive. So stop being so nice to and understanding of your mortal enemies; they’re not what you think they are.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 10:24 AM

Sorry Tim. I missed the sarc tag. ;)

Anyhow, I think that Piers “Pierced Organ” Morgan has made a total ass of himself in far funnier ways than just confusing a clip with a magazine.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:20 AM

No problem, I probably should have used a sarc tag, sarcasm doesn’t always translate well over the interwebs.

But Morgan and everyone else are just fully embracing newspeak. They know if they repeat the words enough that the low info crowd and the O-voting crowd (I know, redundant) will take up that usage of the words.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:25 AM

Of course, everybody slips up and uses the wrong word occasionally. But to give someone a pass when they’re purposefully misusing it for propaganda purposes is naive. So stop being so nice to and understanding of your mortal enemies; they’re not what you think they are.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 10:24 AM

Overreact much? I don’t think our second amendment rights hinge on the difference between a clip and a magazine. That’s all Jazz is saying here and I’m inclined to agree.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:25 AM

Overreact much? I don’t think our second amendment rights hinge on the difference between a clip and a magazine. That’s all Jazz is saying here and I’m inclined to agree.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:25 AM

You’re right. But they do seem to hinge on the difference between “assault weapon” and “hunting rifle.”

So while it may seem petty to quibble over terminology, it’s kind of like companies with trademarks — if you don’t protect the usage of the word, you use it.

Just ask Otis how their Elevator line of lifts is doing, or how their movable line of staircases called Escalators are doing. The reason some of us find it important to not lose the meanings of words to the progressives it because they successfully redefine words to advance their arguments.

Is the clip v magazine thing important? Probably not. But why are they deliberately saying clip when they know its wrong? Probably because it was focus grouped, and “clip” sounds more dangerous to low info idiots then “magazine” which sounds like something that they buy in a brown bag at the convenience store when their wife is out of town.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:30 AM

you use it.

you lose it ** sorry

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:30 AM

Is the clip v magazine thing important? Probably not. But why are they deliberately saying clip when they know its wrong? Probably because it was focus grouped, and “clip” sounds more dangerous to low info idiots then “magazine” which sounds like something that they buy in a brown bag at the convenience store when their wife is out of town.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:30 AM

Or maybe, as Jazz pointed out, they’re just making the same common mistake that gun rights supporters like Wayne LaPierre make on occasion. There’s enough demonstrable harm done by libwits that we don’t have to go looking for boogeymen where they don’t exist.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:33 AM

Speaking of words that evolve new meanings:

Dictator was once called public servant…

A child in the womb was once called, “your baby.”

Spending more than you have was once: being bankrupt.

Racism was once called speaking “the truth.”

Popular entertainment was once called “pornography.”

The highest authority was once called “God.”

Marriage was once called a man and woman’s “commitment.”

Doing the right thing was once called -family values.

Higher education was once called “a search for the truth.”

The constitution was once called–our defense against government encroachment.

Getting a job was once called “luck” (and not a curse)

Welfare was once called, “down on your luck”

Don L on February 2, 2013 at 10:34 AM

Magazine/clip…tomato/tomahto…On a certain level yes, it’s beating a dead horse but I always think back to a class I took on Propaganda where my unabashedly liberal teacher told me that those who define the words have the power.
Yes word definition’s change over time, some through misuse and cultural changes/slang but others with purposeful intent to deceive. I first ran into this when I did a study of religious cults many of whom will use the same terminology of orthodox Christianity but have different meanings attached to those words. And I’ve seen it often times in the political world, both in words and through the use of images/colors (ever wonder how/why the conservatives/Republicans/right got linked with the color red that was traditionally associated with communism/left?)
So while in this case there the interchanging of magazines and clips may be irrelevant, it would come in useful when an eventual ban is put in place to ban all semi-auto’s that utilize clips or magazines.

RAN58 on February 2, 2013 at 10:36 AM

Liberals actively progress the language. We’ve learned that
- Normal capacity is High capacity because they say so.
- A Semi automatic weapon is an ‘assault weapon’ (rifle or pistol)
- Bushmaster = Satan
- Automatic bullets exist

Mix this in with assorted lies:

- The AK47 is the weapon of choice of gangsters (and Feinstein)
- ‘Assault Weapons’ are responsible for 20% of police deaths

Words evolve yes. But in pursuit of riding roughshod over the 2nd ammendment, the Democrat horde is simply making up its own version of reality.

You can embrace that Jazz if you like. Maybe it gives you that warm fuzzy RINO feeling?

CorporatePiggy on February 2, 2013 at 10:36 AM

Well then, we shouldn’t be concerned when we’re told that our country is a “Democracy” instead of a “Republic.”

Same thing, right?

Political correctness has “taught” us to watch our words.

Why do we bother with comprehension tests in school?

Words have meaning.

What’s good for the goose is good for the other goose.

ProfShadow on February 2, 2013 at 10:36 AM

I’ve always said that anybody who has no grasp of the technical aspects of firearms has no place discussing the legal aspects of same.
Get it right or STFU.

soundingboard on February 2, 2013 at 10:38 AM

Or maybe, as Jazz pointed out, they’re just making the same common mistake that gun rights supporters like Wayne LaPierre make on occasion. There’s enough demonstrable harm done by libwits that we don’t have to go looking for boogeymen where they don’t exist.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:33 AM

So you think its inadvertent? Just like they call hunting rifles “military style assault weapons” because they don’t know the difference?

For some, maybe. But winning the argument in DC is mostly about setting the premises for the argument. The dems are great at reshaping every argument to work in their favor, and they do it the same way companies advertise to people.

Lots of focus group testing, polling, etc. They see which words evoke which emotions, and how best to frame issues with which words.

So yeah, we already lost the “assault weapons” argument, the “revenue” argument, and millions of other minor and major arguments because we accepted the premise.

Even republicans in DC now call tax increases “revenues” and speak with the words Obama uses. Words are incredibly important, not only for then denotations, but for the connotations.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:38 AM

There are tons of examples to be found. One of my “favorite” (as in pet peeve) entries in the category is hoi polloi. The original meaning of the phrase was “the common people,” referring to the great unwashed masses. It was actually a derogatory term. But it’s a fancy sounding phrase, and confused writers began using it to refer to the upper crust, elite. That was done so often that modern reference works now actually refer to both as correct usage. The word was turned on its head.

I thought when used against the well-to-do, it was done mockingly. Am I wrong?

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:38 AM

If someone seems worthy of correcting, okay. Otherwise I let the wrong usage of the word clip slide. It makes it easier to distinguish between the knowledgeable and the ignorant.

I keep many rounds in clips so I can reload my magazines faster.

cozmo on February 2, 2013 at 10:39 AM

On the use of language in a different context: http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2013/02/01/On-Ambiguous-Facts-and-Neutral-Language

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 10:40 AM

These Guns are super scary looking…What part of that don’t you ignorant bitterclingers understand?

workingclass artist on February 2, 2013 at 10:42 AM

What if they call a strap harness a bayonet / grenade launcher mount. Can we consider them ignorant enough to dismiss then?

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:43 AM

Gun-Rifle,this settles the issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kU0XCVey_U

docflash on February 2, 2013 at 10:43 AM

And I’ve seen it often times in the political world, both in words and through the use of images/colors (ever wonder how/why the conservatives/Republicans/right got linked with the color red that was traditionally associated with communism/left?)
So while in this case there the interchanging of magazines and clips may be irrelevant, it would come in useful when an eventual ban is put in place to ban all semi-auto’s that utilize clips or magazines.

RAN58 on February 2, 2013 at 10:36 AM

Right. And anyone who doesn’t see that is willfully blinding themselves. We laugh when the democrats make up new terminology to describe something, but it’s not accidental. I’m sure Piers has had enough people correct him about his terminology on twitter on and his show to know that he’s not using the words in the accepted way. He and everyone else know that the words they’re using from progressive talking points were selected to be the words used in the argument because they frame the issue in a more positive light for the progressives.

Word evolution usually is a very long process, usually starts off as slang, and usually has an understandable reason for happening. Changing a definitions over night to better frame a political argument is for propaganda purposes, not just the natural evolution of our language.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:43 AM

For those who missed it, here’s Cruz’s presentation at the hearings on gun control this week.

Consider it Exhibit A as to why he’s so valuable not just to Texas but the country. (I can’t imbed the link for some reason)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wi6gZU01yF8

TxAnn56 on February 2, 2013 at 10:43 AM

Jazz, I get the point but old doggie here and I still use weapon and not gun, mag and not clip, sling and not strap. Try telling and abortionist it is a baby and you are immediately tagged as a know nothing or try telling Townhall their ads suck, and you’re tagged a caveman.

Limerick on February 2, 2013 at 10:43 AM

Hoi polloi (Ancient Greek: οἱ πολλοί, hoi polloi, “the many”), a Greek expression meaning “the many” or, in the strictest sense, “the majority”, is used in English to refer to the working class, commoners, the masses or common people in a derogatory sense. Synonyms for hoi polloi which also express the same or similar contempt for such people include “the great unwashed”, “the plebeians” or “plebs”, “the rabble”, “riff-raff”, “the herd”, “the proles” and “peons”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoi_polloi

In saying “the hoi polloi” “the” is redundant. “Hoi” means “the.”

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 10:44 AM

Terms do change. But …

I own only one rifle that takes a “clip”. My M1 Garand. It is an actual eight round clip device that contains the rounds prior to and after insertion into the rifle’s internal magazine. The beautiful twang it makes after it’s ejected with the eighth/last round shot is a thing of reverence for M1 owners. There’s that.

Some have taken to calling pistol magazines, “clips”. Although they are not, it is not a big deal to me. But the large magazines I use in my rifles are not “clips” and it sounds funny referring to them as clips because they are, “large”. So, I will stick to my guns.

Pun intended.

hawkdriver on February 2, 2013 at 10:44 AM

For those who missed it, here’s Cruz’s presentation at the hearings on gun control this week.

Consider it Exhibit A as to why he’s so valuable not just to Texas but the country. (I can’t imbed the link for some reason)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wi6gZU01yF8

TxAnn56 on February 2, 2013 at 10:43 AM

yeah…Cruz totally rocked that hearing

workingclass artist on February 2, 2013 at 10:46 AM

So you think its inadvertent? Just like they call hunting rifles “military style assault weapons” because they don’t know the difference?

Now you’re putting words into my mouth. What I said, and what I meant, is that I don’t believe that the confusion of the words “clip” and “magazine” in the context of their use in rifles is detrimental to the 2nd amendment. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I do think you and I have a difference of opinion on this matter.

For some, maybe. But winning the argument in DC is mostly about setting the premises for the argument. The dems are great at reshaping every argument to work in their favor, and they do it the same way companies advertise to people.

Then pound home the difference between fully automatic and semi-automatic. Pound home the fact that the only federal statutory definition of “military-grade rifle” is, by-definition, fully-automatic. You’re doing the movement no favors by attacking points that don’t really matter in the end. Clip? Magazine? They’ll end up banned if the libwits get their way no matter what you call them.

Lots of focus group testing, polling, etc. They see which words evoke which emotions, and how best to frame issues with which words.

Again, we come to a difference of opinion. If Wayne LaPierre didn’t confuse the two words on occasion, I’d think you might be right. But I highly doubt that he calls magazines clips out of some sinister desire to evoke emotion in his minions.

So yeah, we already lost the “assault weapons” argument, the “revenue” argument, and millions of other minor and major arguments because we accepted the premise.

Who is this “we,” kemosabe? My first, last, and only premise is “…the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” If you’re worried about what the politicos are doing in DC, particularly that the Republicans will cave as they almost always do, take it up with them. I’m your ally in this fight, I promise.

Even republicans in DC now call tax increases “revenues” and speak with the words Obama uses. Words are incredibly important, not only for then denotations, but for the connotations.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:38 AM

*sigh*

And the distractions continue apace. Clips vs. magazines is not the hill I’m going to die on in the gun rights debate. It makes me feel petty and pedantic. As always, YMMV.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:47 AM

In saying “the hoi polloi” “the” is redundant. “Hoi” means “the.”

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 10:44 AM

Personally, I prefer, “Ahoy polloi.”

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:47 AM

If liberals used truth in advertising, they’d quit saying ‘gun control’ and call it what it is: gun restriction. Or, in a broader sense, ‘rights limitation’.

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 10:47 AM

Or maybe, as Jazz pointed out, they’re just making the same common mistake that gun rights supporters like Wayne LaPierre make on occasion. There’s enough demonstrable harm done by libwits that we don’t have to go looking for boogeymen where they don’t exist.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:33 AM

The President who would like to restrict your gun rights has used the term “magazine clips” multiple times. That is not mixing up two similar terms. It is sheer nonsense akin to saying “backpack purses” or “garage closets.”

We would call the opposition out on such obvious ignorance in other matters, would we not? Especially in situations where the Constitution is at risk?

Missy on February 2, 2013 at 10:48 AM

BOOM!

“National Rifle Association President David Keene told The Daily Caller that the gun-control movement was born out of a racist desire to oppress and endanger African-Americans.

“You know, when you go back in our history … the initial wave of [gun-control laws] was instituted after the Civil War to deny blacks the ability to defend themselves,” Keene said.

“It’s the reason, for example, that Condoleezza Rice says, as far as the Second Amendment is concerned, ‘I’m an absolutist.’ Because she remembers her house being surrounded by neighbors with firearms to protect them from a white mob back during the worst days of the civil rights struggle.” (RELATED: Was Second Amendment drafted to ensure militias could preserve slavery?)

Gun-rights advocate Kira Davis echoed Keene’s claim in a December YouTube video, saying gun ownership is a “powerful” right that was initially denied to freed slaves by tyrannical whites.

“Guns are tools,” Keene continued. “Guns are something that can be used for good or for ill. It’s our contention in this country that history shows that in most instances, guns are used for good — to protect people and families.”

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/02/nra-president-david-keene-gun-control-laws-are-historically-racist-video/#ixzz2Jl0zrVFE

workingclass artist on February 2, 2013 at 10:49 AM

It will with a military style assault banana.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 10:14 AM

I prefer fully-automatic bolt action mangos, myself.

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 10:16 AM

Those great for drive-by fruitings…

JetBoy on February 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM

Words have meaning. Stop letting the liberal progressives define them on their terms.

fbrinson on February 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM

We may not be able to immediately change the onslaught of manipulation from politicians and bias from the media, but we can grow in our ability to perceive the reality of words and deeds.

http://upstreampolitics.wordpress.com/propaganda/

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM

Overreact much? I don’t think our second amendment rights hinge on the difference between a clip and a magazine. That’s all Jazz is saying here and I’m inclined to agree.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:25 AM

No I’m not overreacting, and no I don’t think things hinge on that particular word either. If it was just that one word, alone, then no big deal. But it is emblematic and indicative of ignorance. Sure, language changes over time and everyone misuses a word accidentally once in a while. But language naturally evolves when large numbers of people actually using it day to day find a purpose or convenience to it for their daily lives. That is not what is going on here.

One point is people making decisions without knowledge, which applies to many of our politicians. And citizens have decisions thrust upon them for which they don’t know the repercussions because they’ve been lied to about words’ meanings. Other times people ignorantly repeat talking points without bothering to even make a decision, not just the media. Other times they use words that sound scary to propagandize. Other times they shift the meaning of one word onto something which already has a description. Or just fuzz the meaning of the word enough that bureaucrats may interpret law as broadly as desired. This is not all of propaganda, but controlling the language is important.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM

Those great for drive-by fruitings…

JetBoy on February 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM

LOL

But what if the target has a high-capacity pomegranate? All those seeds…

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 10:53 AM

We would call the opposition out on such obvious ignorance in other matters, would we not? Especially in situations where the Constitution is at risk?

Missy on February 2, 2013 at 10:48 AM

Except you know better. That’s not what Jazz is talking about here.

Personally, I think such incredible stupidity as that which you point out isn’t worth serious engagement. It’s worthy of nothing more than public shaming and ridicule. But what do I know? I’m just a neanderthal gun rights supporter. ;)

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:54 AM

Now you’re putting words into my mouth. What I said, and what I meant, is that I don’t believe that the confusion of the words “clip” and “magazine” in the context of their use in rifles is detrimental to the 2nd amendment. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I do think you and I have a difference of opinion on this matter.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:47 AM

Well, now you’re putting words in the mouths of other people. What is the problem with consistent use of clip for magazine? Nothing per se. But it serves as a proxy for gun knowledge. And it is frustrating when you have all of your policy makers and opinion makers who are trying to infringe upon our constitutional rights sound like ignorant rubes in doing so. And the clip vs magazine confusion is just the tip of the ice berg of their ignorance.

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:54 AM

I’ll go along with Jazz with this, but I reserve the right to mock anyone who calls them “magazine clips”. That’s pure ignorance.

I’m also going to start referring to my assault weapons as Personal Defense Weapons, as DHS calls them, with Standard Mags..

“Assault weapons” is a term that needs to go, since it was made up by gun grabbers.

juliesa on February 2, 2013 at 10:55 AM

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:54 AM

Like confusing self defense with manslaughter? They wouldn’t do that would they?

Limerick on February 2, 2013 at 10:56 AM

One point is people making decisions without knowledge, which applies to many of our politicians. And citizens have decisions thrust upon them for which they don’t know the repercussions because they’ve been lied to about words’ meanings. Other times people ignorantly repeat talking points without bothering to even make a decision, not just the media. Other times they use words that sound scary to propagandize. Other times they shift the meaning of one word onto something which already has a description. Or just fuzz the meaning of the word enough that bureaucrats may interpret law as broadly as desired. This is not all of propaganda, but controlling the language is important.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM

If you’re going to worry about controlling the language, I’ll repeat what I said upthread:

Worry about educating people as to what constitutes military grade weaponry according to current law, and how libwits want to redefine that term. Educate people about the plain language of the second amendment and what “…shall not be infringed” means. The difference between a clip and a magazine is not the hill to die on. It seems petty and pedantic to me, and those aren’t normally traits I ascribe to the conservative movement.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:56 AM

hickock45 is a guy on youtube that has tons of shooting videos–really good ones actually. He has a (video) clip on the issue that helps spell it out for the underinformed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoSNHe413rY

ted c on February 2, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Just about any use of the word “clip” today is technically wrong, but rarely worth nitpicking. I have heard long-time gun dealers use clip and magazine interchangeably. The only people that should have their feet held to the fire about this are mystery writer who are too lazy or too egotistical to research their subject. And some bonus advice for any authors who might be reading here, neither Glocks nor revolvers have a safety, and there is no such thing as a “silencer”.

Brutus on February 2, 2013 at 10:57 AM

Overreact much? I don’t think our second amendment rights hinge on the difference between a clip and a magazine. That’s all Jazz is saying here and I’m inclined to agree.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:25 AM

If that’s what you two are arguing, then you’re arguing against a strawman.

And if I’d realized that this was a Jazz post, and on guns no less, I would have skipped it.

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:58 AM

I’ve noticed they’ve also gone from calling standard 30 rnd capacity mags “high capacity” to now “excessive capacity”.

We should probably not refer to 1911s as “automatics” anymore. It confuses people.

JohnBrown on February 2, 2013 at 10:58 AM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k5ftVvhw_zc/UQj08vI311I/AAAAAAAAap8/JNNyjRWAr-A/s1600/mail+box+GUN.jpg

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 10:57 AM

Assault mail box!

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 10:58 AM

And the clip vs magazine confusion is just the tip of the ice berg of their ignorance.

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:54 AM

So why chip away at just the tip? There are far more stupid and ridicule-worthy things that have been done and said in the name of restricting gun rights. We’re going to find ourselves distracted to the point of losing our weapons over clip/magazine size while we argue about what to call them. That’s where this is headed. Somewhere, there is a Media Matters shill that laughs every time a conservative complains about clip/magazine confusion.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:59 AM

neither Glocks nor revolvers have a safety, and there is no such thing as a “silencer”.

Brutus on February 2, 2013 at 10:57 AM

My Judge has a safety.

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 10:59 AM

Sorry Jazz, ain’t buying it. WORDS have MEANING. If you’re having a discussion and one side uses the wrong terms, then correct them, so that you’re both on the same page.

Otherwise I’ll be out there SUPPORTING and DEMANDING a ban and confiscation on all “high capacity clips”.

Obfuscation by liberals is normal practice. That way you can scream about “assault weapons” and never have to actually define what it is.

GarandFan on February 2, 2013 at 11:00 AM

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:56 AM

It’s not just about clip vs. magazine, even if that is the title of the article. Republicans always say this one thing is not the hill to die on, and Democrats win by increments. Letting your enemy redefine *any* term is a loser in the long run.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 11:01 AM

Why don’t we change fiscal responsibility to fiscal anal retentive?

Limerick on February 2, 2013 at 11:02 AM

Sorry Jazz, ain’t buying it. WORDS have MEANING. If you’re having a discussion and one side uses the wrong terms, then correct them, so that you’re both on the same page.

GarandFan on February 2, 2013 at 11:00 AM

I hope you get just as exercised the next time Wayne LaPierre gets it wrong.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:02 AM

Letting your enemy redefine *any* term is a loser in the long run.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 11:01 AM

Then I hope you get just as pissed off the next time Wayne LaPierre or Ted Nugent get it wrong.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:04 AM

If that’s what you two are arguing, then you’re arguing against a strawman.

And if I’d realized that this was a Jazz post, and on guns no less, I would have skipped it.

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:58 AM

No. He’s arguing it’s just about those two words. I’m arguing it’s about a larger propaganda and ignorance effort.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 11:04 AM

The obfuscation of terminology is deliberate.

Josh Sugarmann
Violence Policy Center Director
“Assault weapons… are a new topic. The weapons’ menacing looks, coupled with the public’s confusion over fully-automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons — anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun — can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons.”

-Josh Sugarmann, “Assault Weapons: Analysis, New Research and Legislation”, March 1989

Words have meanings. And if we allow the hoplophobes to blur those meanings we’ve lost half of the battle.

soundingboard on February 2, 2013 at 11:05 AM

drive-by fruitings…

JetBoy on February 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM

O_O

CorporatePiggy on February 2, 2013 at 11:05 AM

If that’s what you two are arguing, then you’re arguing against a strawman.

And if I’d realized that this was a Jazz post, and on guns no less, I would have skipped it.

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 10:58 AM

I am not arguing a straw man. Some people here think it’s important. I don’t. We’ll continue to mock the left for being willfully stupid, and the left will continue to mock us for being pedantic and petty. Oh well. Another day in paradise.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:05 AM

Then I hope you get just as pissed off the next time Wayne LaPierre or Ted Nugent get it wrong.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:04 AM

I’ve already said people accidentally misuse words sometimes. I’m certainly not immune to that. So you’re the one being trivial and silly, not me.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM

So why chip away at just the tip? There are far more stupid and ridicule-worthy things that have been done and said in the name of restricting gun rights.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:59 AM

I’d suspect frustration, annoyance and exasperation. You have clowns out there trying to take away your constitutional rights for essentially no reason other than to make themselves feel good and they can’t even get the most basic, simple terminology about a firearm correct.

Myself, I let it go, but it is an eye rolling situation every time it happens.

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM

I’d like changing the term ‘gun control’ to another thing it is: criminal coddling. Liberals are well known for that. And the reason I call it coddling is because, by restricting the law-abiding, the Left is automatically ceding power to criminals over everyone else. And they know it, too.

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 11:07 AM

Clips vs. magazines is not the hill I’m going to die on in the gun rights debate.

Of course it isn’t and no one else is going to die on it either. That’s a strawman.

Missy on February 2, 2013 at 11:07 AM

Words have meanings. And if we allow the hoplophobes to blur those meanings we’ve lost half of the battle.

soundingboard on February 2, 2013 at 11:05 AM

Nowhere in the Sugarmann quote does he say anything about clips or magazines. You kind of made my point for me.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:08 AM

It’s worthy of nothing more than public shaming and ridicule.

I agree such ignorance should be shamed and ridiculed. But earlier you said that even pointing it out is petty and pedantic. Perhaps I’m not understanding your argument.

Missy on February 2, 2013 at 11:11 AM

I’ve already said people accidentally misuse words sometimes. I’m certainly not immune to that. So you’re the one being trivial and silly, not me.

Fenris on February 2, 2013 at 11:06 AM

It just strikes me as odd that folks are really quick to assign ill intent to leftists when that’s not necessarily the case here. And let me reiterate, I speak only of the confusion between clips and magazines. There is absolutely ill intent in the attempt to redefine military-grade weaponry. There is absolutely ill intent in the repeated media usage of the term “assault weapon.”

Of course it isn’t and no one else is going to die on it either. That’s a strawman.

Missy on February 2, 2013 at 11:07 AM

Maybe more of a non-sequitur than a strawman. You should really study up on your logical fallacies. Or is there ill intent in your purposeful redefinition of “straw man?” ;)

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:12 AM

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:04 AM

It’s more than making a mistake. We all do that in every subject.

I made a glaring blunder yesterday when I attributed a quote from the Apostle John to the Apostle Paul.

But the obfuscation of language is a dangerous tool of the left, and we must be ever vigilant.

One of the tools of language obfuscation employed is equivocation. I think that is what’s happening here. Not deliberately, mind you. But you and you antagonists are arguing two different things.

You seems to be arguing for mercy in the innocent mistakes of language, which is good.

The others are arguing against the wanton misuse of language, which is necessary.

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 11:12 AM

At the barber shop I always tell the barber I’d like to read a clip while I’m getting a magazine.

Limerick on February 2, 2013 at 11:13 AM

Man, those busty lookin assault cantaloupes can really smoth…..uh kill ya.

tommy71 on February 2, 2013 at 11:14 AM

I agree such ignorance should be shamed and ridiculed. But earlier you said that even pointing it out is petty and pedantic. Perhaps I’m not understanding your argument.

Missy on February 2, 2013 at 11:11 AM

I was speaking specifically of Obama’s use of the term “magazine clips.” His very use of that specious term practically pegs him as a gun hater and can stand without further serious comment, as far as I’m concerned.

What I’m talking about is the specific confusion of clips and magazines, which gun rights supporters confuse all the time. That in and of itself does not reek of ill intent to me, or even really ignorance. If it did, then Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent would be just as guilty.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:15 AM

And the distractions continue apace. Clips vs. magazines is not the hill I’m going to die on in the gun rights debate. It makes me feel petty and pedantic. As always, YMMV.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 10:47 AM

Well, no, this isn’t the “hill to die on” but if we aren’t ever vigilant against this stuff (or even offensive. Start calling them “ammo safety storage devices” or something benign and ridiculous), it will continue to creep up on us.

Why are we even accepting that gun restrictions is now “gun control” or “gun safety”?

We’re not controlling guns, we’re putting a legal limit on access to guns by law abiding citizens.

Felons and criminals and gang bangers and the government being the only ones to own guns is not control or safety, its the opposite of that.

We have ceded SO MUCH of the language to the left so far. Why don’t we ever frame the arguments?

Even our weak attempt to frame the illegal immigration debate as “amnesty” isn’t accurate. The left isn’t only asking for amnesty for past crimes, they’re advocating for rewarding felonies with citizen. They’re saying its okay to cross a border illegally, forge ID documents, not pay taxes, commit all kinds of fraud, criminal and traffic violations — but only if you’re a certain skin color.

So yeah, words do matter. They matter more then substance in 99% of what goes on in DC.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 11:16 AM

You seems to be arguing for mercy in the innocent mistakes of language, which is good.

The others are arguing against the wanton misuse of language, which is necessary.

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 11:12 AM

I am no more in favor of the wanton misuse of language than anyone else here. I’m just not going to automatically assume ill intent from someone who calls a magazine a clip. There are far more effective ways to get hoplophobes on board with the cause than using the word “clip.”

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:17 AM

I am not arguing a straw man. Some people here think it’s important. I don’t. We’ll continue to mock the left for being willfully stupid, and the left will continue to mock us for being pedantic and petty. Oh well. Another day in paradise.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:05 AM

Nobody has argued that our second amendment rights hinge on the difference between a clip and a magazine. That is the position that you said you are arguing against. If that is what you are arguing against, you are arguing against a strawman.

But if you are arguing that a clip vs magazine argument is pretty much useless and perhaps even counterproductive on its own (i.e., in the absence of other or further argument), then I think that we can agree. That doesn’t mean that people aren’t going to have a visceral reaction to people incapable of basic firearm terminology who try to pretend know enough about firearms to attempt to justify unconstitutionally infringing our right to bear arms.

besser tot als rot on February 2, 2013 at 11:17 AM

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:08 AM

The quote was just an example of the deliberate distortion of terminology.

How many hills are you ready to surrender? One here, one there,and eventually you’ve lost the battle.

soundingboard on February 2, 2013 at 11:18 AM

If it did, then Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent would be just as guilty.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:15 AM

Right. And why are they confusing the terms? Because they’re so used to hearing “clip” on CNN every day that even THEY, who should know better, are slipping up.

Just like pro-2nd amendment types conceding that a semi-automatic rifle that looks scary is an “assault weapon.” Either they’re purposely using the term because they figure “hey that’s what the media says, thats what people know it as” or because they’ve heard it misused so many times they’re slipping.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 11:19 AM

Just words. Hmmm, where have I heard that before? I will agree that people sometimes misspeak. I further agree that especially in pop culture (so popular with the low information voters) that word meanings get twisted – part of the new hotness and all. However there are times when it is important to get them correct – hopefully when the bomb squad is diffusing a bomb, suddenly ‘blue wire’ has not become the ‘red wire’ of today.

As far as I know, a finger still means a finger and a trigger still means a trigger. So when idiots like DiFi stop lecturing on the evils of guns while holding one with their finger on the trigger, I might be willing to concede the clip/magazine point. But probably not since words mean what socialists liberals progressives say they mean.

ghostwalker1 on February 2, 2013 at 11:20 AM

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-H-yb_xXKVs0/UQjp1j7xEuI/AAAAAAAAalM/azVqhVnxruY/s1600/Hump+Day+Humor+01.jpg

davidk on February 2, 2013 at 11:18 AM

The Utopian dream! LOL

Liam on February 2, 2013 at 11:20 AM

We have ceded SO MUCH of the language to the left so far. Why don’t we ever frame the arguments?

Complaining about someone who forgets the difference between a magazine and a clip isn’t “framing the argument.” They want to take it away from us. All of it. Magazine? Clip? It’ll all be illegal in direct violation of the 2nd amendment. How’s that for framing the argument?

Even our weak attempt to frame the illegal immigration debate as “amnesty” isn’t accurate. The left isn’t only asking for amnesty for past crimes, they’re advocating for rewarding felonies with citizen. They’re saying its okay to cross a border illegally, forge ID documents, not pay taxes, commit all kinds of fraud, criminal and traffic violations — but only if you’re a certain skin color.

What in the bloody blue hell does this have to do with anything Jazz said in this post? Did I miss something?

So yeah, words do matter. They matter more then substance in 99% of what goes on in DC.

Timin203 on February 2, 2013 at 11:16 AM

Careful. Rolling my eyes at you that hard may cause them to get stuck that way.

But seriously, I don’t think I’m the one engaging in straw men against my fellow commenters here. I see a lot of stuff here being blown wildly out of proportion viz-a-vis this particular post of Jazz’s. And I am normally NOT very quick at all to defend Jazz.

gryphon202 on February 2, 2013 at 11:21 AM

Those great for drive-by fruitings…

JetBoy on February 2, 2013 at 10:50 AM

Wouldn’t a cannon loaded with grap-shot work better?
;)

soundingboard on February 2, 2013 at 11:21 AM

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