Raisin farmers in SCOTUS case face $650K charge if they don’t give half their crop to the feds

posted at 9:46 pm on January 30, 2013 by Mary Katharine Ham

47 percent of their crop, to be precise. It’s J.J. Abrams’ world. We’re all just living in it.

Luckily, the Supreme Court decided to take the case of the Horne family, so they may end up retaining the right to freely sell the raisin crop they’ve duly produced, but how is it that they must appeal to the highest court in the land for that right? Well, it all started in 1937, as so many good things do, when the federal government began requiring raising farmers to lay aside a tribute portion of their crops in order to control supply and price.

In this case, the USDA imposed on the Hornes a “marketing order” demanding that they turn over 47% of their crop without compensation. The order—a much-criticized New Deal relic—forces raisin “handlers” to reserve a certain percentage of their crop “for the account” of the government-backed Raisin Administrative Committee, enabling the government to control the supply and price of raisins on the market. The RAC then either sells the raisins or simply gives them away to noncompetitive markets—such as federal agencies, charities, and foreign governments—with the proceeds going toward the RAC’s administration costs.

It’s been rough going for the Hornes since they had the audacity to lay claim to their own crops:

Believing that they, as raisin “producers,” were exempt, the Hornes failed to set aside the requisite tribute during the 2002-2003 and 2003-2004 growing seasons. The USDA disagreed with the Hornes’ interpretation of the Agricultural Marketing Agreement Act of 1937 and brought an enforcement action, seeking $438,843.53 (the approximate market value of the raisins that the Hornes allegedly owe), $202,600 in civil penalties, and $8,783.39 in unpaid assessments. After losing in that administrative review, the Hornes brought their case to federal court, arguing that the marketing order and associated fines violated the Fifth Amendment’s Takings Clause.

After litigating the matter in both district and appellate court, the government—for the first time—alleged that the Hornes’ takings claim would not be ripe for judicial review until after the Hornes terminated the present dispute, paid the money owed, and then filed a separate suit in the Court of Federal Claims.

The Hornes and others think the “marketing order” is a relic that solves a problem that doesn’t exist:

“These programs were created in a different era,” said Steffen Johnson, a lawyer who wrote a brief in support of some dissident raisin farmers, “and frankly, it was an era when farmers didn’t have access to international markets.”

On the other side of the argument are the federal government, and some other raisin growers. I’m guessing those who aren’t as good as the Hornes at growing raisins.

In a brief defending the department, Solicitor General Donald Verrilli wrote that the farmers “identify no reason why the imposition of a civil penalty and other assessments for noncompliance with a regulatory scheme constitutes a taking of property without just compensation.”

Many growers, moreover, support the marketing order as good for the raisin industry, which the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals noted last year “has long been an important one in California.”

Here to help. Oral arguments are March 20.

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Comment pages: 1 2

THE COLLECTIVE!

KOOLAID2 on January 30, 2013 at 9:48 PM

Theres a “Raisin Administrative Committee?” Yeah, I’m pretty sure thats our first clue that the government is too big and is doing too many things.

vegconservative on January 30, 2013 at 9:50 PM

Well, it all started in 1937, as so many good things do, when the federal government began requiring raising farmers to lay aside a tribute portion of their crops in order to control supply and price.

Socialism is an ideological throwback to the feudal ages.

sharrukin on January 30, 2013 at 9:51 PM

What the hell is a raisin farmer?

Ronnie on January 30, 2013 at 9:51 PM

Wickard v. Filburn…

We can round file it..

We now have something new…

Electrongod on January 30, 2013 at 9:52 PM

We areat bare bones. There is nothing to cut!/

KCB on January 30, 2013 at 9:52 PM

Raisin in the sun… sheesh… is this for real?!

What else can they demand as ‘tribute’.

The Hornes have let the cat out of the bag…

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 9:52 PM

KCB on January 30, 2013 at 9:52 PM

The space is impled.

KCB on January 30, 2013 at 9:53 PM

Jizya!

Resist We Much on January 30, 2013 at 9:53 PM

The Government needs to shrivel up a wee bit.

Bmore on January 30, 2013 at 9:54 PM

Feudalism abounds within Mordor on the Potomic!

Just work the land and give us what is ours… you serfs can maybe keep a little for yourselves…

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 9:54 PM

Grapes and government don’t belong together.

blatantblue on January 30, 2013 at 9:55 PM

I done gone seen it all now!!

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 9:55 PM

All I have to say is thanks to postings on the internet websites we citizens are finding out how our freedom is being taken away
from us. We are also finding out that the erosion has been going on for a long time. Where has our news media been all these decades?

Finding out is the first step.

The second step is to reverse the damage the progressive socialists/marxists/communists have done to this country.

It seems like an almost insurmountable task. However, we can’t throw everything at the Supreme Court.

Stories like this make local, state, as well as federal elections
even more critical.

I hope Hot Air keeps track of the progress/results of this case
and others.

Amjean on January 30, 2013 at 9:56 PM

OMG – there’s that darn 47 percent again!

Pork-Chop on January 30, 2013 at 9:56 PM

Just wait a cotton pickin minute. Didn’t we get our independence from the Brits since likes, ages ago? This sounds like we’re back to paying tribute all over again.

tommy71 on January 30, 2013 at 9:56 PM

Fortunately or not, there is a tune.

Bmore on January 30, 2013 at 9:57 PM

…the government always needs to sh!t…since raisins help…they needs the raisans!

KOOLAID2 on January 30, 2013 at 9:57 PM

The Kingly Ones DEMAND theirs!

Off with their heads!

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 9:57 PM

, enabling the government to control the supply and price of raisins on the market.

Does China like raisins?

If not..or they don’t care…

What the he!! are we doing here to our own people?

Electrongod on January 30, 2013 at 9:57 PM

Tis like Alice thru the looking glass…

California Raisin Party here we come!

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 9:58 PM

Roberts and his fellow Lawgivers-In-Black will term this a tax and say that no raisin producer has the right to more than 53% of his or her output.

Steve Eggleston on January 30, 2013 at 9:59 PM

Prunes…
Many of our pols are prunes..

Regulate!

Electrongod on January 30, 2013 at 9:59 PM

We need to be ‘raisin’ hell!!

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:00 PM

Grape Republic?

MarshFox on January 30, 2013 at 10:00 PM

OMG – there’s that darn 47 percent again!

Pork-Chop on January 30, 2013 at 9:56 PM

…how insensitive!

KOOLAID2 on January 30, 2013 at 10:01 PM

Lmao this is almost too funny to be true.

I am crying now cuz it is!

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:01 PM

The fact that there is such a thing as a Raisin Administrative Committee should be in every GOP ad from now until 2016.

If that isn’t the epitome of too much government I don’t know what is.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:02 PM

The fact that there is such a thing as a Raisin Administrative Committee should be in every GOP ad from now until 2016.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:02 PM

Just think how many jobs were created or saved by this Raisin Committee..

Down the hall..

The Cashew Committee is meeting..

Electrongod on January 30, 2013 at 10:04 PM

Remnants of 1920′s — 1930′s attempts to transform America into a Marxist/Socialist collective.

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:05 PM

The Raisin Administrative Committee? Is that for real? Poor me. I thought that those Soviet commies were nuts. Maybe they were, but we’re raisins.

tommy71 on January 30, 2013 at 10:06 PM

Just think how many jobs were created or saved by this Raisin Committee..

Down the hall..

The Cashew Committee is meeting..

Electrongod on January 30, 2013 at 10:04 PM

I had to read that three times to make sure what I was reading was actually what I was reading.

It’s funny in a pathetic OMG sort of way.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:07 PM

Food for Fuel

Massive bird killing machines

Raisin Administrative Committee

0bama Care

Tax the rich to sustain the moochers

Free the illegals

Gimme gimme gimme

Take take take

aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh!!

Damn the torpedoes, FULL STEAM AHEAD!

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:07 PM

I hope this is overturned, and we can get rid of all the stupid boards we have to pay for when selling our grain/cattle. We have to pay $1 per head to the Beef Checkoff (every time the animal is sold), so many cents per bushel for every bushel of wheat/milo/soybeans, etc. we sell. They even raised it this past year for wheat in Kansas.

cptacek on January 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

cptacek on January 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

What is the purpose of the Beef Checkoff?

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

cptacek on January 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

Shut up you Serf!

You work for the gov’t now!

Be grateful… /

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM

Within each are more. Insidious. Just US Congress.

Bmore on January 30, 2013 at 10:09 PM

Can anybody say 1948!

MarshFox on January 30, 2013 at 10:10 PM

I hope this is overturned, and we can get rid of all the stupid boards we have to pay for when selling our grain/cattle. We have to pay $1 per head to the Beef Checkoff (every time the animal is sold), so many cents per bushel for every bushel of wheat/milo/soybeans, etc. we sell. They even raised it this past year for wheat in Kansas.

cptacek on January 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

Our Founding Fathers would disown us if they knew what we have allowed to happen to their Republic.

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:11 PM

Oh dear Lord

Analysis Report

They even have sub committees

Too Funny

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:11 PM

Yes, I could but I don’t want to :-p

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:11 PM

Beef Checkoff? Sounds like a russian name.

tommy71 on January 30, 2013 at 10:12 PM

cptacek on January 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

Thats the good thing about cash crops in Delaware, we don’t have to pay those, not sure why, but we don’t.

MarshFox on January 30, 2013 at 10:13 PM

Just wait a cotton pickin minute. Didn’t we get our independence from the Brits since likes, ages ago? This sounds like we’re back to paying tribute all over again.

tommy71 on January 30, 2013 at 9:56 PM

Think back a little bit more…

… Rome, the Senate, violins… $16 Trillion in debt.

Oh, wait…!

Seven Percent Solution on January 30, 2013 at 10:13 PM

Hello I am from the gov’t.

I am here to help you ;-D

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:13 PM

What is the purpose of the Beef Checkoff?

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

To pay back the IOUs in Social Security..

It sounds to me that we already have a VAT tax.

Electrongod on January 30, 2013 at 10:13 PM

See this is where the GOP could really start making noise.

Start with all these stupid government agencies. Tell people what they do, what they take from Americans and how much money we would save if they didn’t exist.

This kind of stuff people will listen to IMO.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:14 PM

Hello I am from the gov’t.

I am here to help you ;-D

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:13 PM

Ok, now I am officially skeered…

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:14 PM

See this is where the GOP could really start making noise.

Start with all these stupid government agencies. Tell people what they do, what they take from Americans and how much money we would save if they didn’t exist.

This kind of stuff people will listen to IMO.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:14 PM

The GOPe would have to actually want smaller government and more freedom and liberty for the average America to even contemplate such an idea.

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:16 PM

OOO OOO I heard it through the grapevine.

msupertas on January 30, 2013 at 10:16 PM

Reason for the beef checkoff

By law, all producers selling cattle or calves, for any reason and regardless of age or sex, must pay $1-per-head to support beef/veal promotion, research and information through the Beef Promotion and Research Act. Here are some specifics:

Earth to government – I’m going to eat beef period. I don’t need it to be “promoted”

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:17 PM

Seven Percent Solution on January 30, 2013 at 10:13 PM

Even more ironic, it got blamed on the Christians didn’t it?

MarshFox on January 30, 2013 at 10:17 PM

What is the purpose of the Beef Checkoff?
gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:08 PM

Apparently it is so we poor schlubs can pay Matthew McConaughey good money to creep people out in a commercial:
Beef. It’s what’s for dinner.

They say it is for marketing and opening foreign markets to our products. But we have no choice in paying and can’t get a refund, even if we don’t agree with anything they are doing. Some of the programs you can get a refund for, but you have to get the forms from the state board, you can’t order extra forms and keep them from year to year. You can’t download them. They have to send them to you with a special stamp on them, you have to get the elevator to sign that you have sold x many bushels, then send them in. One board had a “temporary” program where you could send your forms in for 3 years, and at the end of the 3 years, if too many people had requested refunds, they wouldn’t pay it out.

cptacek on January 30, 2013 at 10:17 PM

See this is where the GOP could really start making noise.

Start with all these stupid government agencies. Tell people what they do, what they take from Americans and how much money we would save if they didn’t exist.

This kind of stuff people will listen to IMO.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:14 PM

The only one up there in DC that MAY know about this and others is Coburn and the few people who read his book! Sad but IMO true.

CoffeeLover on January 30, 2013 at 10:17 PM

SW, the founding fathers would have shot us for what we’ve allowed to happen to the Republic. And they wouldn’t have bothered about civility either.

tommy71 on January 30, 2013 at 10:18 PM

cptacek on January 30, 2013 at 10:17 PM

That is almost as stupid as the raisin committee.

I swear I’m going to run for Congress on a platform of getting rid of these stupid regulations and agencies.

No wonder we are so broke.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:19 PM

What the hell is a raisin farmer?

Ronnie on January 30, 2013 at 9:51 PM

A raisin farmer is someone who grows raisins on trees. And electricity comes from the walls. And water is created in the faucet.

Don’t you know anything?!

Timin203 on January 30, 2013 at 10:19 PM

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:16 PM

Did you get your FEMA camp number yet so I know where to go to get you?

MarshFox on January 30, 2013 at 10:19 PM

I’m sick of raisn taxes. They are always rasin taxes. Now they are raisin raisin taxes.

SparkPlug on January 30, 2013 at 10:19 PM

Careful… one day you’re just saying you shouldn’t have to give up half your crop in tribute, the next day one district is destroyed and everyone else has to provide 2 teenagers every year to fight each other to the death.

I’m kind of ashamed that I know even that much.

malclave on January 30, 2013 at 10:19 PM

The only one up there in DC that MAY know about this and others is Coburn and the few people who read his book! Sad but IMO true.

CoffeeLover on January 30, 2013 at 10:17 PM

I’m just kind of speechless right now.

Stupid does not even begin to describe these two things.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:20 PM

I have to tell you that now I am remembering the CA raisin commercial!

CoffeeLover on January 30, 2013 at 10:21 PM

I am here to relieve you of all your unnecessary and excessive ‘burdens’.

To lighten your load and simplify your life!

Just call me when you need somthing.

Your friendly gov’t agency

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:21 PM

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:16 PM

Did you get your FEMA camp number yet so I know where to go to get you?

MarshFox on January 30, 2013 at 10:19 PM

Not yet, but that’s probably only cause there is more than one person in the town I live with the same name as me, he probably got it and the feds just haven’t figured it out yet… ;p

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:22 PM

I’m sick of raisn taxes. They are always rasin taxes. Now they are raisin raisin taxes.

SparkPlug on January 30, 2013 at 10:19 PM

I see what you did there.

Remember the California Raisns?

Electrongod on January 30, 2013 at 10:22 PM

Stupid does not even begin to describe these two things.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:20 PM

Exactly. Those idiots in D.C. should be made to not only sit when Senators are making floor speeches but they should work Mon – Friday and actually do what we pay them for. WORK.

How about starting with a top to bottom review of every program and agency????

MarshFox….common sense and logic right!

CoffeeLover on January 30, 2013 at 10:24 PM

I see what you did there.

Remember the California Raisns?

Electrongod on January 30, 2013 at 10:22 PM

I had the one with the saxophone since I used to play. Of course that was the hardest one to find.

gophergirl on January 30, 2013 at 10:24 PM

You cannot hide from me.

I know everything there is to know about YOU!

You are tagged stamped computed.

You Belong To Us!

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:25 PM

lol Scrumpy are you feeling better I hope?

I am so laughing at all of you. Good comebacks one and all.

CoffeeLover on January 30, 2013 at 10:26 PM

Somthing tells me that Ms Ham is perhaps hungry?

Ham
Eggs
Raisins?

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:26 PM

You cannot hide from me.

I know everything there is to know about YOU!

You are tagged stamped computed.

You Belong To Us!

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:25 PM

In Soviet America the Government owns YOU.

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:26 PM

Raisin Administrative Committee or RAC. Hey, how the RAC? Did it get bigger this year? ;-)

tommy71 on January 30, 2013 at 10:26 PM

I dunno, but I’d work pretty hard at making ‘undocumented sales’.

That will be the end result of Liberalism Unchained. Just like in the old Soviet Union.

RavingLunatic on January 30, 2013 at 10:26 PM

CoffeeLover on January 30, 2013 at 10:24 PM

How right you are, makes sense, yeah not going to work, move along, nothing to see here/s :)

MarshFox on January 30, 2013 at 10:27 PM

CoffeeLover on January 30, 2013 at 10:26 PM

Hi! I am doing better thanks!! Hows’ you?

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:27 PM

Roberts will say it is a tax. So I am depending on Sotomayor.

AshleyTKing on January 30, 2013 at 10:27 PM

I dunno, but I’d work pretty hard at making ‘undocumented sales’.

That will be the end result of Liberalism Unchained. Just like in the old Soviet Union.

RavingLunatic on January 30, 2013 at 10:26 PM

It could probably work with cattle, like for farm to feed lot sales. But you have to get your commodity grain into the global markets, and that means into grain elevators, who are heavily audited.

cptacek on January 30, 2013 at 10:27 PM

Roberts will say it is a tax. So I am depending on Sotomayor.

AshleyTKing on January 30, 2013 at 10:27 PM

Counting on the Wise Lanita Hooker never ends well…

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:29 PM

wot we gonna do about it?

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:30 PM

You have to watch everything your government does, even at state and local.

In my state you have to pay ad valorem taxes on the value of your car each time you get a new tag.

When you buy a new car you pay sales tax and ad valorem tax.

Well, they said they were removing these and you would pay a title tax starting this year on new car purchases. Ok, probably paying the same amount?

Well, if you buy a used car, say from a private seller you now have to pay the title tax, 6.5% in 2013 and 6.75% in 2014. And you still have to pay the ad valorem tax.

Never had to pay sales tax before on a private sale.

Who does this hurt? The middle class and the poor.

They don’t care, just want to get every penny they can.

Barred on January 30, 2013 at 10:31 PM

SWalker on January 30, 2013 at 10:22 PM

the ironies just keep coming, went through that with Dad, when he went to jail lets just say I got called to ask what I did, I am the true Copperhead road song sorta, same as daddy’s before kinda thing.

MarshFox on January 30, 2013 at 10:31 PM

Glad to hear Scrumpy!

MarshFox — you bet.

CoffeeLover on January 30, 2013 at 10:31 PM

hmm, i wonder if government is getting too big?? nah.

Sachiko on January 30, 2013 at 10:32 PM

…the Grapes of Wrath?

KOOLAID2 on January 30, 2013 at 10:32 PM

Roberts will say it is a tax. So I am depending on Sotomayor.

AshleyTKing on January 30, 2013 at 10:27 PM

Welcome to the party, pal :-)

And as SWalker said, it won’t end well.

Steve Eggleston on January 30, 2013 at 10:33 PM

wot we gonna do about it?

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:30 PM

You know what I am going to do about this?

sharrukin on January 30, 2013 at 10:37 PM

How do you farm raisins?

steebo77 on January 30, 2013 at 10:42 PM

Had to Google “Raisin Administrative Committee”. Couldn’t believe it. Had to be made up. No there it was just like MKH said it was . Well actually a bit, no really a whole lot stranger.

1. They are a private trade organization of raisin producers only in California..
2. The USDA becomes the enforcement arm of this private trade group in California.
3. They are beneficiaries of Federal Block Grants.
4. They are beneficiaries of Stimulus monies.
5. In 2010 they had 71 tons of raisins in storage.

How many more of these relations are there that we never hear about?

jpcpt03 on January 30, 2013 at 10:43 PM

I can’t even feed my chickens.

wolly4321 on January 30, 2013 at 10:46 PM

Had to Google “Raisin Administrative Committee”. Couldn’t believe it. Had to be made up. No there it was just like MKH said it was . Well actually a bit, no really a whole lot stranger.

1. They are a private trade organization of raisin producers only in California..
2. The USDA becomes the enforcement arm of this private trade group in California.
3. They are beneficiaries of Federal Block Grants.
4. They are beneficiaries of Stimulus monies.
5. In 2010 they had 71 tons of raisins in storage.

How many more of these relations are there that we never hear about?

jpcpt03 on January 30, 2013 at 10:43 PM

Look up “tea Taster” and “FDA”, prepare to convulse.

tom daschle concerned on January 30, 2013 at 10:56 PM

The Raisin Administrative Committee? Is that for real? Poor me. I thought that those Soviet commies were nuts. Maybe they were, but we’re raisins.

tommy71 on January 30, 2013 at 10:06 PM

You guys don’t know half of it. Nazi State, aka state of Kaliphornia, is nothing but about control and collecting money. Being in wine making I get a ton of “letters of request” to pay fees on top of fees, from “agencies” that were created just to collect money and pay themselves, with absolutely no other reason for their existence. Its a nightmare. And you can’t do much about it as they can shut you down pretty quickly and pull your license. BLACKMAIL at its best. Entire system is rigged to extort business owners.

riddick on January 30, 2013 at 10:56 PM

Guess that’s why the California Raisins are down to 2 members.

http://paranoidobseshun.deviantart.com/art/California-Raisins-PVC-figure-comparison-AC-287788623

HumpBot Salvation on January 30, 2013 at 10:57 PM

What the hell is a raisin farmer?

Ronnie on January 30, 2013 at 9:51 PM

A vintner who knows nothing about winemaking.

Rio Linda Refugee on January 30, 2013 at 11:03 PM

government-backed Raisin Administrative Committee

Nope, no government waste and bloated bureaucracy in this country, folks, go on about your business.

“Raisin Administrative Committee”…you’ve got to be kidding me!

What the hell is a raisin farmer?

Ronnie on January 30, 2013 at 9:51 PM

A vintner who knows nothing about winemaking.

Rio Linda Refugee on January 30, 2013 at 11:03 PM

HA HA…good one!

Dr. ZhivBlago on January 30, 2013 at 11:06 PM

Let’s not forget the classic 1986 commercial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM2OK_JaJ9I

and of course

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDkA1pCQFOo

ProfShadow on January 30, 2013 at 11:17 PM

RAC/Palin 2016!

ahlaphus on January 30, 2013 at 11:17 PM

That is just creepy.

pat on January 30, 2013 at 11:27 PM

wot we gonna do about it?

Scrumpy on January 30, 2013 at 10:30 PM
You know what I am going to do about this?

sharrukin on January 30, 2013 at 10:37 PM

You are aware that you can only poke a Wolverine so many times with a sharp stick before he tears your balls off….and once he decides to rip, there ain’t no gettin away.
I do believe they are admiring the baby rattlesnake and that little sucker has enough venom to rot your parts off where he bites you.

III/0317

dirtengineer on January 30, 2013 at 11:31 PM

You are aware that you can only poke a Wolverine so many times with a sharp stick before he tears your balls off….and once he decides to rip, there ain’t no gettin away.
I do believe they are admiring the baby rattlesnake and that little sucker has enough venom to rot your parts off where he bites you.

III/0317

dirtengineer on January 30, 2013 at 11:31 PM

I certainly hope so because the leviathan is getting bigger and bigger every day, and its going to either be freedom, or leviathan that collapses under the weight.

sharrukin on January 30, 2013 at 11:34 PM

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