Allen West: “Now is not the time to play a social experiment with our ground combat forces”

posted at 1:51 pm on January 24, 2013 by Erika Johnsen

I don’t know if part of the rationale for yesterday’s kinda’-sorta’ out-of-left-field announcement that the Pentagon is lifting the ban on women serving in direct combat is supposed to be some kind of barrier-breaking, legacy-building last hurrah for Leon Panetta, but if that’s the case, I’m not sure that that legacy will be a very positive one. There’s been no dearth of criticism for the idea from veterans, including from one former Republican Congressman Allen West:

However, to make the insidious policy decision that we shall now open up combat billets to women is something completely different. GI Jane was a movie and should not be the basis for a policy shift. I know Martha McSally, have known women who are Apache and Cobra helicopter pilots, and served with women who were MPs, but being on the ground and having to go mano y mano in close combat is a completely different environment.

I completely disagree with this decision and can just imagine all the third and fourth order effects and considerations for implementation, such as standards for training. Unless the Obama administration has not noticed we are fighting against a brutal enemy and now is not the time to play a social experiment with our ground combat forces. President Obama, as Commander-in-Chief, should be focused on sequestration and the failure of his policies in the Middle East. This is the misconceived liberal progressive vision of fairness and equality which could potentially lead to the demise of our military.

The WSJ ran a pretty persuasive op-ed to a similar effect from former Marine Ryan Smith, who points out that social norms are not something you can just toss aside, especially in assessing a combat unit’s cohesion and efficiency:

We had not showered in well over a month and our chemical protective suits were covered in a mixture of filth and dried blood. We were told to strip and place our suits in pits to be burned immediately. My unit stood there in a walled-in compound in Baghdad, naked, sores dotted all over our bodies, feet peeling, watching our suits burn. Later, they lined us up naked and washed us off with pressure washers.

Yes, a woman is as capable as a man of pulling a trigger. But the goal of our nation’s military is to fight and win wars. Before taking the drastic step of allowing women to serve in combat units, has the government considered whether introducing women into the above-described situation would have made my unit more or less combat effective?

How exactly this is going to play out technically is still to be determined; lifting the ban on women in combat isn’t quite the same as instantly opening all combat roles to women. The services will have until January 2016 to defend cases in which they think women should be kept out of certain roles, but there will definitely be plenty of political fallout and intentional cultural boat-rocking in the meantime — because President Obama and the Democrats now have another specific item to tout whenever they want to revive their “war on women” meme, besides the Lily Ledbetter Act: Actual war on women.

 


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So, The left know better than all of human history and experience. When do I wake up from this nightmare?

birdwatcher on January 24, 2013 at 1:58 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy–whDNNKk

Some wisdom is certainly timeless.

LaughterJones on January 24, 2013 at 1:59 PM

Yeah, but what does Colin Powell say? That’s what really matters.
/

SailorMark on January 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Men and women are different. We are physically different. (Thank you, Lord) We are psychologically different. (I have the gray hair to prove it.) And, we are emotionally different. (Men are from Bass Pro. Women are from Kohl’s.)

Women are blessed by God. They are the foundation of the human race. Each and every one of us came out of a woman.

That’s not to say women can’t serve. They are serving our country honorably right now, in every branch of service.

However, intentionally sending them to the Front Lines, where they can be killed or captured, raped, and tortured, just to make a political point, is insensitive and just plain stupid.

It will weaken our Armed Forces.

And, perhaps, that is what this Administration, which does not believe in American Exceptionalism, wants to do.

kingsjester on January 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Slight tweek Allen.

“Never is the time to play a social experiment with our ground combat forces”

Bmore on January 24, 2013 at 2:01 PM

Meh. Men and women work side by side just about everywhere else in civilian and military life. The true social experiment is preventing qualified women from participating in combat roles.

DaveO on January 24, 2013 at 2:03 PM

A real man will protect his women; a lib sends them into harm’s way…….

–Teddy Roosevelt (just kidding, it was me)

SailorMark on January 24, 2013 at 2:03 PM

As I heard on Bill Bennett this morning: they wouldn’t touch the NFL where it’s a game but when it comes to security and life or death: yeah, let’s experiment.

Marcus on January 24, 2013 at 2:04 PM

These people are insane, and no one is saying it. If there was a woman who wanted to be on the front lines, she’d be a mental case and therefore not fit to serve. Republicans should write the legislation to ban this war on women. Let the Democrats vote to send women to the front lines and see how many women vote for Democrats next time.

Buddahpundit on January 24, 2013 at 2:04 PM

DaveO is a lameO.

catmman on January 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM

This is the misconceived liberal progressive vision of fairness and equality which could potentially lead to the demise of our military.

Somehow, I think this is the plan.

tru2tx on January 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM

It will weaken our Armed Forces.

kingsjester on January 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM

You are saying that as if it’s a bad thing. –BHO, PBUH

Archivarix on January 24, 2013 at 2:05 PM

Yeah, but what does Colin Powell say? That’s what really matters.
/

SailorMark on January 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM

I’m waiting for the input from Meghan McCain, myself.

The Rogue Tomato on January 24, 2013 at 2:06 PM

So, will the girls now be required to register with Selective Service? I doubt it, but what possible justification remains for excluding them?

james23 on January 24, 2013 at 2:06 PM

The Left is simply pouring on all the new controversy it can muster to further inflame and divide the people. All the old staples about race, feminism, abortion, etc. are still out there, but they have been overused for so long they have become cliches; the lustre is long worn off and the impact far less forceful. What better than to toss in a few new ones to keep the fires stoked?

I wonder what will be the next ‘serious issue that needs to be addressed’.

Liam on January 24, 2013 at 2:06 PM

All males must register for the (non existant) draft at the age of 18.

Say that outloud, and ask when all 18 years old, male, female, straight or gay will register for the draft.Oh, and that is all 18 year olds – including aliens – because in the ’60′s you could be drafted if you were 18 and resident of the USA.

Wander on January 24, 2013 at 2:07 PM

The true social experiment is preventing qualified women from participating in combat roles.

DaveO on January 24, 2013 at 2:03 PM

Next thing, you’ll say that women enjoy being raped when Islamists capture them. Right?

Archivarix on January 24, 2013 at 2:07 PM

DaveO on January 24, 2013 at 2:03 PM

Would you approve of lowering the standard for physical abilities to manage your assertion?

Bmore on January 24, 2013 at 2:07 PM

I wonder what will be the next ‘serious issue that needs to be addressed’.

Liam on January 24, 2013 at 2:06 PM

I’m guessing it’s not the economy.

SailorMark on January 24, 2013 at 2:08 PM

civilian and military life

Which one of these two things is different?

Bmore on January 24, 2013 at 2:08 PM

Just think how it will play out when a female soldier is captured by the enemy and raped before she is beheaded…live on the internet.

ratherbskiing on January 24, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Athenas to the left of me, Minervas to the right here I am, stuck in the middle…

This is what my brother in law predicted when Clinton was in office.

DanMan on January 24, 2013 at 2:10 PM

Allen West: “Now is not the time to play a social experiment with our ground combat forces”

Poor Allen West, true patriot, but he just doesn’t get it. West like the vast majority of patriotic American’s simply cannot comprehend what is happening. This is not a social experiment. Allowing Gays to serve openly was not a social experiment. This is about fundamentally transforming America’s Military.

The Obamanation Administration knows that it must fundamentally transform America’s military or their Soft Marxist Coup will eventually be undone by the American People. This is just one of the mandatory steps in transforming Obama’s soft Marxist Coup into a hard Coup.

SWalker on January 24, 2013 at 2:10 PM

If it’s good enough for Doherty, Woods, Smith, and Stevens, then it’s good enough for our daughters.

rogerb on January 24, 2013 at 2:11 PM

These people are insane, and no one is saying it. If there was a woman who wanted to be on the front lines, she’d be a mental case and therefore not fit to serve. Republicans should write the legislation to ban this war on women. Let the Democrats vote to send women to the front lines and see how many women vote for Democrats next time.

Buddahpundit on January 24, 2013 at 2:04 PM

And if (God forbid in my opinion) a draft ever returns, are people ready for their wives, daughters, and granddaughters to be sent to the front?

The volunteer military has worked so well, and been so effective, and is so well respected that I can’t but see this is a Chicago-style attempt to screw it all up.

I listened overnight to military members and vets calling talk shows (reruns of Levin, Larson, Red Eye) and they’re overwhelmingly opposed.

Drained Brain on January 24, 2013 at 2:11 PM

Snot running down his nose –
greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes.
Drying in the cold sun –
Watching as the frilly panties run.
Feeling like a dead duck –
spitting out pieces of his broken luck.

Bmore on January 24, 2013 at 2:13 PM

Women in combat are fine if they fight as an all women unit against an all women unit from the enemy; that’s a level playing field. Let them have at it and US women will win against their women opponents. But to blend women with men in combat is stupid. Imagine a woman marine trying to carry a 270 lb wounded male marine on her back out of the danger zone? Imagine how much lower the Seal Team standards will need to be lowered? Why not have women in the NFL play with the men, see how well that works out.

Tripwhipper on January 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM

Lets remember a couple things. The White House denial that they didn’t know this was coming is as much of a lie as anything coming out of this administration. You don’t announce something like this without the boss knowing about it.

Secondly. The rat-eared wonder wants this fight for 2014. War on Women part II. Something along the theme of even though sluts can now get free birth control they don’t have the right to get killed in a combat job. I’m sure they’ll clean up the message by 2014 but that is about it. The filthy rat-eared one is spoiling for a fight on this and Alan West is playing into that trap.

But here’s an issue that should also be discussed.

If women are able to serve in combat, why aren’t they required to register for the draft like men? Are we setting up a system where men can be forced into combat but women have to volunteer for it?

Happy Nomad on January 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM

Leon drops this joke just before he leaves the job.

Who will protect your nuts in Calif. now Leon?

Wander on January 24, 2013 at 2:16 PM

Just think how it will play out when a female soldier is captured by the enemy and raped before she is beheaded…live on the internet.

ratherbskiing on January 24, 2013 at 2:09 PM

Because women are weaker than men? A man is fully capable to face death and torture, but a woman is too weak-minded and frail to ever face violence?!

You need to go back to the 19th Century.

ZachV on January 24, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Imagine how much lower the Seal Team standards will need to be lowered? Why not have women in the NFL play with the men, see how well that works out.

Tripwhipper on January 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM

That is the trick the left constantly uses. They make claims that women will be required to meet the same standards as men- even as they lower the standards for everybody so women will be able to pass. I know this may be controversial to say but men and women are different physically. We shouldn’t ignore that just because the rat-eared wonder wants an issue to excite stupid greedy women as a fight headed into the 2014.

Happy Nomad on January 24, 2013 at 2:17 PM

1. This crazy commie Democrat Party cult will put females out in combat of the Fool-la-ga type, house to house, dirt pile to dirt pile, mud filled ditch to water and mud filled ditch, with meth/hash ed up islamic death cult men who will do the kia on these bait females and then the guys in the squad will get the fun job of putting the dog tags in some American woman who he spent a year in traing with.

These mad dog nut case commies are going to get all of U.S. killed, let alone the American females who they use for vote for commies bait.

spit

APACHEWHOKNOWS on January 24, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Why not have women in the NFL play with the men, see how well that works out.

Tripwhipper on January 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM

Not a bad idea. Try it out there first.

Bmore on January 24, 2013 at 2:18 PM

I assume that there will be a standardized, across the board PT scores? I beleive 180 was the minimum, but in my unit it was 250. Now the standards are much different based on sex, and they even change based on age, but not as drastcially.

Now if a 220 lb male soldier goes down, and the situation requires on immediate response, will a 130 lb female solider be able to carry him out of harm’s way? Or will he die waiting and she die trying? That’s progress.

What of the different hygeine needs? Female soldiers can go for prolonged periods in the field without very different needs in that regard or a whole host of other problems will arise.

How many soliders will die in the future risking life and limb to rescue a captured female soldier? Or is basic training and/or OSUT/ boot camp going to be extended to reprogram the males? Perhaps a portion of the ASVAB can be dedicated to weeding out those “less sensitive” males.

Stunning stupdity.

reaganaut on January 24, 2013 at 2:18 PM

Several of us on the same page…

“If you want your daughter drafted into the infantry, vote Democrat.”

Drained Brain on January 24, 2013 at 2:19 PM

If it’s good enough for Doherty, Woods, Smith, and Stevens, then it’s good enough for our daughters.

rogerb on January 24, 2013 at 2:11 PM

I wonder how Barry would feel if Sasha and Malia said they wanted to be combat troops.

Bitter Clinger on January 24, 2013 at 2:19 PM

When the terrorists send in the women to do anything except die in suicide bombings, it may be a fair playing field for American women to fight and die against them.

Until then, it’s insanity.

Is there any question left in anyone’s mind that the USA is over, and is just searching for the final rope to hang itself with?

JoseQuinones on January 24, 2013 at 2:19 PM

Let me apologize in advance for this crude comment/joke, but I can’t help myself.

One week a month they’d be a freaking super weapon.

ratherbskiing on January 24, 2013 at 2:20 PM

You need to go back to the 19th Century.

ZachV on January 24, 2013 at 2:17 PM

No. We are fighting 19th Century Barbarians, who behead gay folks, women, children. Christians, etc.

They sexually abused Amb. Stevens. What do You think they would do to a female soldier they captures?

kingsjester on January 24, 2013 at 2:20 PM

Let them serve. In fact let them be conscripted. Let them feel the full weight of equality. Let them die and bleed for their country like they have been so willing to send men to do for so long. In fact I argue for full equality; that no branch remain untouched until it is at least 50% women in all roles and at all levels. And let them not ask for one iota of different treatment — let them carry the same packs, walk the same miles, hoist the same equipment and die the same deaths.

theblackcommenter on January 24, 2013 at 2:20 PM

Why not have women in the NFL play with the men, see how well that works out.

Tripwhipper on January 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM

That’s what we have Lingerie League for.

Archivarix on January 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM

From over here:

Almost half the 850 women who registered to take the Fire Department tests dropped out before the written exam last September, the officials said. Only a third of the 354 women who passed the written exam then showed up for the physical test in December. Of that number, only 11 female candidates did well enough on the physical exam to have a hope of being hired, the officials said…
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/02/03/nyregion/despite-recruiting-few-women-do-well-in-firefighter-tests.html

 
From over there:

Fire chiefs have made the ‘ladder lifting’ tests that all new recruits must go through easier to allow more women and less-strong men into the service…
 
Strenuous runs, where candidates had to complete increasing fast sprints in what’s known as a ‘beep test,’ have also been scrapped, along with having to carry a 12 stone person 100 yards in less than a minute…
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375381/Fire-service-strength-fitness-tests-relaxed-allow-women-firefighters.html

rogerb on January 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM

Female soldiers can go for prolonged periods

Should read can’t.

Well this should provide more slots in the IG field. Each platoon may need an IG representative to handle the deluge of sexual harassment claims. They can report to the newly created Company Sensitivity officer and on up the line…I mean, we can’t have soldiers throwing around the type of banter they have for ages now. No, we need sensitivity and diversity, not unit cohesion and trained killers.

Forget combat lifesaver training and land navigation, diversity classes will fill up the days.

reaganaut on January 24, 2013 at 2:24 PM

That photo looks like Dwight Schrute.

22044 on January 24, 2013 at 2:25 PM

I wonder how Barry would feel if Sasha and Malia said they wanted to be combat troops.

Bitter Clinger on January 24, 2013 at 2:19 PM

Ooh! That’s probably almost as bad as being punished with a baby!

Dexter_Alarius on January 24, 2013 at 2:26 PM

Dennis Prager, who is not a veteran but is wise, has written extensively about the difference between men and women. It is something we have to acknowledge and celebrate.

This mindless drive for parity doesn’t end well.

It doesn’t even end well in civilian life.

CorporatePiggy on January 24, 2013 at 2:26 PM

To prove women can be on the front line, the next thing the government will do is dumb down the testing process
I think the Leon, Obama, and the brown shoes in the Pentagon are doing this is because our troops are getting out in droves once their tours are up!
Our Marines, who have to patrol without a round in the chambers of their weapons they carry have had it with the prissy rules of disengagement!
In order to fill in the short fall Leon, obama and the brown shoes have figured out how to make up the losses

Screw them

Delsa on January 24, 2013 at 2:27 PM

There is one mature death cult on the planet.

There is one new death cult now on the planet.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on January 24, 2013 at 2:27 PM

Because women are weaker than men? A man is fully capable to face death and torture, but a woman is too weak-minded and frail to ever face violence?!

You need to go back to the 19th Century.

ZachV on January 24, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Hmmm…so you’re saying women have all the physical capabilites of men? So you’re saying the response by the public to seeing a woman tortured and beheaded would engender the same response as seeing a man tortured and beheaded?
Also it seems to me you’re projecting a response to something that wasn’t posted.

Deanna on January 24, 2013 at 2:27 PM

Once again, social engineering takes precedence over common sense in the multifarious Obama administration.

Instead of going after guns, Feinstein ought to be showing she’s willing to be a test animal in the Obama administration’s military arm. If senators Feinstein and Boxer, plus some help from a bearer like Maxine Waters, can hump a couple of average GI’s packs for a quarter-mile without passing out, then I feels sure they will immediately rescind that stupid order freeing womens for combat duty.

Please note that it is always folks who never served in the military that always have these spiffy ideas.

If you ain’t been there, you really ought to NOT get a vote on this stuff.

dockywocky on January 24, 2013 at 2:28 PM

The leftists want to disarm its citizens, put women and the transgendered in combat, while at the same time they have hamstrung our ability to build a missile defense system against rogue nukes. At the top of the news today:

North Korea’s top governing body warned Thursday that the regime will conduct its third nuclear test in defiance of UN punishment, and made clear that its long-range rockets are designed to carry not only satellites but also warheads aimed at striking the US.

The following linked video shows one promise O has kept, decimating our missile defense and development program.
Does it matter? Yes. I think so. When that nukes are flying our way, it will matter. Watch the following video, because it not only quotes O, but it demonstrates in rock and roll style the missile tests etc that show we were this close to building an effective anti-missile defense to defend us against the likes of North Korea, Iran, China or whoever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COl4soeox6Y&info=MissileDefense

anotherJoe on January 24, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Combine this with the gay ruling and let homosexual women be the first to see how it works out.

Rose on January 24, 2013 at 2:30 PM

This is the misconceived liberal progressive vision of fairness and equality which could potentially lead to the demise of our military. –Allen “violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice” West

Yeah, there was a lot of that kind of talk when Truman integrated the armed forces too. How did that “social experiment” turn out, Allen?

Conservatives: Wrong on racial integration, wrong on same sex marriage, wrong on women in the military.

Wrong on just about everything.

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Women use the military as a dating and college program.

Mormontheman on January 24, 2013 at 2:31 PM

So, upon thinking, many of the women of the commie Democrat party who join up to serve in combat,, seems to some that a large number of said commie Democrat female voters will not be total new regarding the death of others in their own very very close family.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on January 24, 2013 at 2:32 PM

chumpThreads,

There is a Marine inlistment office near you.

Go there doubble time.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on January 24, 2013 at 2:33 PM

Wrong on just about everything.

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Shuddup and go feed your unicorn.

kingsjester on January 24, 2013 at 2:33 PM

The Commie Democrat Party is a fast evolving death cult.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on January 24, 2013 at 2:34 PM

I am former officer from an already co-ed combat arms unit, a Patriot air defense artillery battalion. For field training exercises, the SOP allowed all male solders to return to the rear every five days for hygiene reasons. For females it was every three days.

BohicaTwentyTwo on January 24, 2013 at 2:35 PM

“Now is not the time to play a social experiment with our ground combat forces”

Too late. It’s done.

rrpjr on January 24, 2013 at 2:35 PM

So, will the girls now be required to register with Selective Service? I doubt it, but what possible justification remains for excluding them?

james23 on January 24, 2013 at 2:06 PM

Agree. And this would have the added benefit of waking those young bubble-heads up to the results of liberalism. Actually having to register for the draft would be a dose of reality.

iurockhead on January 24, 2013 at 2:35 PM

Why not have women in the NFL play with the men, see how well that works out.
 
Tripwhipper on January 24, 2013 at 2:14 PM

 
I’d imagine an intramural tackle series at almost any university would work just as well. Those guys would be at similar levels of youth and athletic ability as the women. Nothing special, just average Joes and Josephines.
 
Assuming any guys would tackle the women (which I doubt, and which handily demonstrates another point about this argument).

rogerb on January 24, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Yeah, there was a lot of that kind of talk when Truman integrated the armed forces too. How did that “social experiment” turn out, Allen?

Conservatives: Wrong on racial integration, wrong on same sex marriage, wrong on women in the military.

Wrong on just about everything.

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:30 PM

You know, chump, it was primarily the Democrats opposing integration back then, not the R’s.

And the physical capabilities of white and Black (and other races) men are the same. Men and women, of any color, are drastically different. Fail.

iurockhead on January 24, 2013 at 2:39 PM

Lefties love books, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I don’t endorse Grossman at all, even though he is hero-worshipped by some.

But Pannetta and his cronies could do worse than to read this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316040932

CorporatePiggy on January 24, 2013 at 2:39 PM

The frontline women would need to adhere to the same physical standards as the men, or this will result in diminishing a unit’s effectiveness and readiness.

Of course, military readiness is not a big priority for the statists who are running the country right now. So to quote Hillary from yesterday, “What difference does it make”?

TarheelBen on January 24, 2013 at 2:40 PM

I hope some House Pub introduces legislation that removes the Selective Service exclusion for women currently in force. Of course that’s about as likely as a Dem doing it, but I’m itching to see how the sides–and individual Congresscritters–come down on the new, improved boon for women’s rights.

Liam on January 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM

The point about not allowing women in the NFL is a good one. But only an extended legal campaign to sue every team that does not have a reasonable number of women could possibly educate the American people that forcing such egalitarian principals is foolish. The left is deft at such actions, perhaps a conservative group should defend the rights of women in sports!

Dr Snooze on January 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM

The “war on women” is back on.

Mormontheman on January 24, 2013 at 2:44 PM

I’m gonna disagree with the nay sayers. Pop was a cop, mom followed him in. At that time she couldn’t patrol and carried her pistol in a purse (of all freaking things). Twenty years later she was running her own black and white. Fast forward, when I changed MOS from armor to military police my unit had the first female patrol ‘experiment’. They gave as good as they got. Face it, they can, the ones who are willing to prove it. Fronterswomen, nurses on Bataan, 1-Adam-12 in your neighborhood. Women can, the ones who can tolerate it, and give as good as they get. If she can shoot straight is good enough for me.

Limerick on January 24, 2013 at 2:45 PM

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Have you ever served, chumpThreads? Allen West has led men in combat. I think he knows a little bit about the subject. I served 20 years in the Navy, am a Gulf War veteran, and know a little bit about it as well.

TarheelBen on January 24, 2013 at 2:46 PM

My daughter actually played on the boy’s football team at her small private school. She survived “hell week” better than most of the team. She did all the drills including tackling and was never treated differently. However, her small physique and lack of speed prevented her from being a star player. She did however score a touchdown.

This was a small school and they played other small schools. She would never have made the team in a regular high school. This is not about discrimination, it is about being honest. Women are not the same as men.

Rose on January 24, 2013 at 2:46 PM

You know, chump, it was primarily the Democrats opposing integration back then, not the R’s.

Where did I mention any political party? I said conservatives, and most southern Democrats at that time were just this side of the Klan. That’s why Nixon went after them and turned them into Republicans.

And the physical capabilities of white and Black (and other races) men are the same. Men and women, of any color, are drastically different. Fail.

iurockhead on January 24, 2013 at 2:39 PM

American women are in combat zones now, fighting and being killed and wounded. As Tammy Duckworth said, she didn’t lose her legs in a bar fight.

I repeat. We have an all volunteer armed forces. Don’t want to fight, don’t join. If a woman enlists she does so with the understanding that she could be called upon to fight. That’s the way is should be in a free society.

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:47 PM

Conservatives: Wrong on racial integration, wrong on same sex marriage, wrong on women in the military.

Wrong on just about everything.

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Republicans freed the slaves, Democrats have put blacks back into dependency. Check back when Republicans bring up the bill to stop this women on the front line insanity and we’ll talk about how the Democrats voted on it.

Buddahpundit on January 24, 2013 at 2:48 PM

Liberals have one goal,to turn everything good upside-down and call everything that is evil, good.
Interesting that the same actions identify Satan, the Father of lies, but we all know he doesn’t exist, right..er…right?

Don L on January 24, 2013 at 2:50 PM

Meh. Men and women work side by side just about everywhere else in civilian and military life. The true social experiment is preventing qualified women from participating in combat roles.

DaveO on January 24, 2013 at 2:03 PM

There’s a huge issue with those qualifications that I don’t see anyone talking about.

Even if the physical standard is kept the same for women as it is for men, the application of that standard will not produce satisfactory outcomes.

Why?

Because the standard was developed to test the abilities of men. The line is drawn to filter out the top XX % of that population, whatever that percentage is. Testing another population against that standard will filter out an entirely different percentage.

Who cares, right? The standard should be applied to each individual.

Wrong. The standard is applied to the force as a whole. The goal is to produce a fighting force with a predictable physical ability, because that physical ability is the baseline for combat. You cannot apply the test developed to test the characteristics of one population to a population with different characteristics, then blend the result, and not effect the performance of resulting group. Period.

The only way that women could be physically “qualified” to perform in the same role as men in this regard would be if they passed the same physical tests in the same proportions, and with the same distribution of results, as the men did. They simply can’t, as a population.

Probably the easiest way to see this is that the women who do pass the test are going to be, by and large, on the lower half of the scores that pass. Therefore, for every instance in which a combat role is filled with a woman instead of a man, you are automatically sampling from an under-performing group to fill that slot. The performance “average” of that unit will be negatively affected.

TexasDan on January 24, 2013 at 2:51 PM

Every female soldier better be prepared by our military on what to expect if they are captured by Muslims. That’s all I have to say on this.

OxyCon on January 24, 2013 at 2:53 PM

Let them serve. In fact let them be conscripted. Let them feel the full weight of equality. Let them die and bleed for their country like they have been so willing to send men to do for so long. In fact I argue for full equality; that no branch remain untouched until it is at least 50% women in all roles and at all levels. And let them not ask for one iota of different treatment — let them carry the same packs, walk the same miles, hoist the same equipment and die the same deaths.

theblackcommenter on January 24, 2013 at 2:20 PM

Problem is, this will get others killed as well. Not because women can’t shoot straight, but because they will be called upon, unfortunately, to remove their fellow soldiers/marines from a hostile fire zone-sometimes long distances. This is such a bad idea.

Static21 on January 24, 2013 at 2:54 PM

That awkward moment for recently married high school/college sweethearts when the husband realizes his wife was drafted and he was not…

weaselyone on January 24, 2013 at 2:54 PM

cT is stupid. But what else is new.

22044 on January 24, 2013 at 2:55 PM

Very possible this fools mission set in motion by Pres. Commie Nut Case Obama will fall as flat as his CO2 battle too will fall.

http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/reutersnews/1.21551825

CO2 “Carbon Credits” fall 40% today.

No tax payer bail out money so, thud.

It is very possible that the mothers of young females here in the U.S.A. will not like the idea of their daughters as cannon fodder bait just so more commie Decocarts can get on the goverment dole.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on January 24, 2013 at 2:57 PM

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/we-band-of-angels-elizabeth-norman/1103025813

For fun and giggles to the nay sayers. Take your hats off, boys.

Limerick on January 24, 2013 at 2:58 PM

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:47 PM

I don’t know how old you are, but those of us who were in high school and college during the Vietnam War saw many young men get drafted and not come home. It would have been even more horrific to see young women also drafted. I know, it doesn’t seem fair to liberals that conservatives see a difference between the sexes but it exists and the problem with letting women fight in an all volunteer army is that some day it may no longer be an all volunteer army.

Rose on January 24, 2013 at 2:59 PM

I repeat. We have an all volunteer armed forces. Don’t want to fight, don’t join. If a woman enlists she does so with the understanding that she could be called upon to fight. That’s the way is should be in a free society.

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:47 PM

Should I have a choice to join a fighting unit that isn’t watered down with individuals of lesser ability?

I’ve always thought that part of the incentive of joining the more elite units is that your individual chances of survival must go up when the skill and physical ability of your entire unit goes up.

This is Michael Jordan going without a salary so the Bulls could hire more talent. It’s not about the ability of the individual, it’s about the ability of the group as a whole.

TexasDan on January 24, 2013 at 2:59 PM

OxyCon,

Read up on what the NVA/VC did to S.O.G. teams in Laos/Cambodia.

Not new, just kept off the front pages to please the traitors like John F. Kerry etal.

APACHEWHOKNOWS on January 24, 2013 at 3:00 PM

Yeah, there was a lot of that kind of talk when Truman integrated the armed forces too. How did that “social experiment” turn out, Allen?

Conservatives: Wrong on racial integration, wrong on same sex marriage, wrong on women in the military.

Wrong on just about everything.

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Wrong on racial integration? It was the conservatives who pushed for them over and over while liberals opposed it until they had no other choice. I know you were force fed bits and pieces of history and thus don’t know this.

Wrong on Women in the military? If everything is so ok as you claim, then why was there a need to lower physical standards for women to met them and qualify? Why the need to lower men’s standards in order to make the much lower female standards seem feasible? Why does the Navy have such tremendous issues of women getting pregnant in the middle of service, or many faking pregnancies to get out of the theater of war? Why do women in the Army suffer all sort of broken hips and injuries related to the amount of equipment they must carry? Why the story after story from soldiers (both men and women) talking about the disruption to their unit experienced because of men- women relations in the field, which you will never eliminate no matter what rules you impose? What about the fact that it changes the mental preparation and awareness of men in combat when they must focus on the most dangerous job in the world? And so forth, and so forth…, and so forth…

Wrong on gay marriage? How so exactly? If you can’t see a difference between men and women in the military then you won’t see the differences in relation to gay marriage. But it is in a nation’s best interest to have men and women procreate and the nucleus for that is marriage. You want to argue suvivorship laws, inheritance, and some specific benefit that gay couple don’t have? I’m sure we all agree on those.

Just because something makes you feel good and fuzzy inside doesn’t mean it is good for the country. Maybe if you actually opened your mind to other ideas, other than pretending you are opened to grander ones, you would realize that.

ptcamn on January 24, 2013 at 3:02 PM

Propose to extend the draft to include women, and see how fast liberals in Congress and the MSM start screaming “Republican war on women!”

For liberals, posturing and appearing trendy is more important than actual equality and much less scary than reality.

Liam on January 24, 2013 at 3:05 PM

chumpThreads

Just because women can kick your ass with ease doesn’t mean they are combat-capable.

xblade on January 24, 2013 at 3:07 PM

I don’t know how old you are, but those of us who were in high school and college during the Vietnam War saw many young men get drafted and not come home. It would have been even more horrific to see young women also drafted. I know, it doesn’t seem fair to liberals that conservatives see a difference between the sexes but it exists and the problem with letting women fight in an all volunteer army is that some day it may no longer be an all volunteer army.

Rose on January 24, 2013 at 2:59 PM

I’m plenty old enough to remember the Vietnam War and I don’t see why drafting women would have been more “horrific” than drafting men. The draft wasn’t the issue; it was an unjust and unnecessary war that killed and maimed our young people.

If the draft returns women will have to do their part, just as the men do.

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 3:08 PM

Face it, they can, the ones who are willing to prove it. Fronterswomen, nurses on Bataan, 1-Adam-12 in your neighborhood. Women can, the ones who can tolerate it, and give as good as they get. If she can shoot straight is good enough for me.

Limerick on January 24, 2013 at 2:45 PM

You do realize there is a huge difference between combat in war and a police officer’s duties right? If not you need to read a bit about war combat.
I had uncles who were cops after serving in WWII. They called it light duty compared to what they went through in Europe.

Deanna on January 24, 2013 at 3:08 PM

Deanna on January 24, 2013 at 3:08 PM

Yes, Deanna, I am aware. I’m not new to the planet. I’m not saying it is a 50/50 prop. I served, and for you who talk about physical performance, if you served, you know damn well that your unit was anything but physically equal, even if all male.

Limerick on January 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/we-band-of-angels-elizabeth-norman/1103025813
 
For fun and giggles to the nay sayers. Take your hats off, boys.
 
Limerick on January 24, 2013 at 2:58 PM

 
No offense, but:
 

We Band of Angels: The Untold Story of American Nurses Trapped on Bataan by the Japanese

 
I definitely take my hat off to them and I’m sure it’s an interesting read, but I don’t quite see how “oops, captured nurses” = “average female soldiers are capable of achieving/surpassing male combat standards”.
 
Fill me in if I’m missing something.

rogerb on January 24, 2013 at 3:12 PM

chumpThreads on January 24, 2013 at 3:08 PM

Sorry, don’t agree. But if women were drafted it should not be for front line combat. They shouldn’t be drafted at all. But that’s what happens when men become liberals, they lose their manliness.

Rose on January 24, 2013 at 3:12 PM

This was only done to get Republicans and conversatives voices on record being against it to lay further foundation to the “war on women” that doesn’t exist.

Already starting in for 2016.

Wagthatdog on January 24, 2013 at 3:14 PM

ptcamn on January 24, 2013 at 3:02 PM

You cannot change the mind of those who have already surrender their capacity for rational or logical thought to emotion and indoctrinated propaganda. You waste your time and energy arguing with Chump thread. He has no mind for you to change or enlighten.

SWalker on January 24, 2013 at 3:14 PM

The Gods of the Copybook Headings

——————————————————————————–

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.”

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “The Wages of Sin is Death.”

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

quikstrike98 on January 24, 2013 at 3:15 PM

I served, and for you who talk about physical performance, if you served, you know damn well that your unit was anything but physically equal, even if all male.

Limerick on January 24, 2013 at 3:11 PM

So why make the comparison of police work to war comabat as you did? It was an inaccurate comparison.
Why didn’t you talk about how women could have done what you did in combat? Or didn’t you experience combat? Just asking, since you brought up the comparisons.

Deanna on January 24, 2013 at 3:17 PM

Men and women are different. We are physically different. (Thank you, Lord) We are psychologically different. (I have the gray hair to prove it.) And, we are emotionally different. (Men are from Bass Pro. Women are from Kohl’s.)

Women are blessed by God. They are the foundation of the human race. Each and every one of us came out of a woman.

That’s not to say women can’t serve. They are serving our country honorably right now, in every branch of service.

However, intentionally sending them to the Front Lines, where they can be killed or captured, raped, and tortured, just to make a political point, is insensitive and just plain stupid.

It will weaken our Armed Forces.

And, perhaps, that is what this Administration, which does not believe in American Exceptionalism, wants to do.

kingsjester on January 24, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Well said, Kingsjester. I served in the Airborne from 1972-75 and had the pleasure of serving with a number of women who were either Officers or non-com’s. Exemplery all, but….out there in the field and not showering for weeks, etc, was not pleasant for the majority of them. 99% percent of these woman served in vital non-combat roles and they performed them very well. These women had no problem doing airborne jumps out of various aircraft but when it came to slogging through different environments – well, you could see the look on their faces spoke volumes of unpleasure.

Cherokee on January 24, 2013 at 3:18 PM

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