Salon: Yeah, abortion takes a life. So what?

posted at 9:31 pm on January 23, 2013 by Mary Katharine Ham

I had an odd moment today reading this Salon piece because within it is a paragraph or two I could have written and probably have said a dozen times:

I have friends who have referred to their abortions in terms of “scraping out a bunch of cells” and then a few years later were exultant over the pregnancies that they unhesitatingly described in terms of “the baby” and “this kid.” I know women who have been relieved at their abortions and grieved over their miscarriages. Why can’t we agree that how they felt about their pregnancies was vastly different, but that it’s pretty silly to pretend that what was growing inside of them wasn’t the same? Fetuses aren’t selective like that. They don’t qualify as human life only if they’re intended to be born.

When we try to act like a pregnancy doesn’t involve human life, we wind up drawing stupid semantic lines in the sand: first trimester abortion vs. second trimester vs. late term, dancing around the issue trying to decide if there’s a single magic moment when a fetus becomes a person. Are you human only when you’re born? Only when you’re viable outside of the womb? Are you less of a human life when you look like a tadpole than when you can suck on your thumb?

This was the exact thought process that led me to the exact opposite position. I, too, noticed a distinction between how women approached an in-utero child when they wanted the child and how they felt about it when the pregnancy was unexpected and unwanted. Logically, it made no sense to me that the mother’s disposition should change the biological disposition of the baby. Therefore, it made no sense that it should change the ethics of the situation.

But Mary Elizabeth Williams goes a whole different direction, encouraging the pro-choice side to embrace the possibility that life begins at conception, which she imagines will allow them to gain some kind of lost rhetorical ground:

Of all the diabolically clever moves the anti-choice lobby has ever pulled, surely one of the greatest has been its consistent co-opting of the word “life.” Life! Who wants to argue with that? Who wants be on the side of … not-life? That’s why the language of those who support abortion has for so long been carefully couched in other terms. While opponents of abortion eagerly describe themselves as “pro-life,” the rest of us have had to scramble around with not nearly as big-ticket words like “choice” and “reproductive freedom.” The “life” conversation is often too thorny to even broach. Yet I know that throughout my own pregnancies, I never wavered for a moment in the belief that I was carrying a human life inside of me. I believe that’s what a fetus is: a human life. And that doesn’t make me one iota less solidly pro-choice.

On one hand, I truly appreciate her honesty— both for its boldness in its literal brutality and in the same way I wish gun-control advocates would just say they want to ban all guns if they want to ban guns. Then at least we’re having an honest conversation. There’s a reason the pro-choice movement must euphemize itself to within an inch of its life— because many people don’t want to be on the side of not-life. In any other article, I’d assume “not-life” is a term meant to mock what pro-lifers believe of pro-choicers, but Williams offers such a clear argument on behalf of an actual not-life position, I’m not sure. At any rate, Williams dispenses with the euphemism, and gives us a look at a very different kind of pro-choice message— like an Honest Movie Trailer for left-leaning politicians. “So, abortion ends a life. So what? There are a lot of lives that aren’t very important.”

Speaking of drawing “stupid semantic lines” and “trying to decide if there’s a single magic moment when a fetus becomes a person,” doesn’t this position just require Williams to draw even more untenable lines where a life becomes important enough to save? That’s the argument Katrina Trinko makes:

By this same logic, isn’t infanticide also fine and dandy? After all, if we’re talking about autonomy, kids aren’t exactly independent as soon as they are born. No infant can take care of themselves. And even later on in childhood, children rely heavily on the adults in their life to provide shelter, food, and emotional support. What about kids and adults who become disabled in life? What about quadriplegics? They’re not going to be able to take care of themselves. Is it okay if we just off the lot of them? Heck, what about needy friends who seem to be falling apart unless we talk to them regularly and console them? Okay to just shoot a couple of them so that we don’t have the burden? Should we ship the grandparents that spent all their money and are now financially dependent on us to the local executioner?

Yes, if the fetus is a life — and a human being — and not a clump of cells, that makes a huge difference. No one would ask a woman to respect the rights of a clump of cells. But it is valid to ask her, difficult as it is to have an unwanted pregnancy, to realize that the death of the child — the child who was totally innocent and has done nothing except be conceived — is not an appropriate way to handle this.

So. What? I’ll hand it over to you guys.

Salon‘s on a roll today.

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM

Young man you had your ass handed to you already once today that I know of. Instead of trolling here with stupid ass question, why don’t you study up a bit first on what it is you are talking about?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:33 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013

Speaking of morons….

xblade on January 23, 2013 at 10:33 PM

I further submit that it is a commonplace of modern biology, known to every high school student and no doubt to you the reader as well, that the life of every individual organism, human or not, begins when the chromosomes of the sperm fuse with the chromosomes of the ovum to form a new DNA complex that thenceforth directs the ontogenesis of the organism.

To pro-abortionists: According to the opinion polls, it looks as if you may get your way. But you’re not going to have it both ways. You’re going to be told what you’re doing.

From novelist Walker Percy’s famous short essay on abortion in the NY Times circa 1981.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/08/reviews/percy-abortion.html

rrpjr on January 23, 2013 at 10:33 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM

Young man you had your ass handed to you already once today that I know of. Instead of trolling here with stupid ass question, why don’t you study up a bit first on what it is you are talking about?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:33 PM

Last on the page. Just so you don’t miss.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:34 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM

Because we understand the millstone!

MarshFox on January 23, 2013 at 10:34 PM

I mean if you do believe abortion is murder, what are you doing about it other than typing angry comments on a conservative blog?

I know if I knew a person was murdering kids on a daily basis, I would call the police and if that doesn’t solve the problem, I would confront the murderer, and if they don’t stop murdering, I would kill the murderer.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM

Sure you would Skippy, just like Bush the killer had to face those leftist homicidal attackers on a daily basis. Was that you they arrested trying to scale the White House fence back in 2003 with a knife between your teeth?

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 10:34 PM

question=questions

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:34 PM

Thanks John is bad not to link. John? I used to read her all the time. Must confess to have stopped of late. Hitchens too, used to be my fav.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:30 PM

scroll up two before sharrukin — I found an excerpt of it. At least Paglia is intellectually honest, even if her conclusion chills to the bone.

John the Libertarian on January 23, 2013 at 10:35 PM

When I hear someone remark that a fetus is nothing more than “a bunch of cells”, I find it helpful to remind them that they are as well.

Selkirk on January 23, 2013 at 10:36 PM

One question I always wondered about prolifers…do you truly believe abortion is murder?

I mean if you do believe abortion is murder, what are you doing about it other than typing angry comments on a conservative blog?

I know if I knew a person was murdering kids on a daily basis, I would call the police and if that doesn’t solve the problem, I would confront the murderer, and if they don’t stop murdering, I would kill the murderer.

But how many of you prolifers are actually willing to kill supposed ‘murderers’ to save innocent babies? Oh, its easy to post a angry comment decrying the murder of babies, but if you truly believe it is murder, why aren’t you stopping the killers yourselves? I guess the ‘baby’ life isn’t so valuable after all huh…or maybe you don’t really believe its murder, since otherwise you’re essentially saying you can sleep knowing that you’re not going to stop the murderers themselves. Oh, I know, you’re going to say but “Im going to go to jail if I kill a known child-killer”…so I guess a innocent baby’s life isn’t worth your ass going to jail then.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM

Let me turn that question back on you, nonpartisanthinker.

How do you feel about fetal homicide laws? Good? Bad? Indifferent? In a majority of states, a person who kills a fetus in the commission of a crime can be charged with fetal homicide — even if the death itself is accidental. At that exact same point in time, if the mother decides to kill the baby purposefully, she is not considered to have committed homicide. So why do you not find it in the least bit chilling that the only difference between fetal homicide and plain old “abortion” is whether the mother wanted the baby? Is that not disturbing to you in the least?

And while we’re at it douchebag, I volunteered in the offices of a local crisis pregnancy center taking phone calls from anonymous (to me) individuals seeking to give their unborn children up for adoption as they come due. I put my money where my mouth was in a way most pro-life protesters don’t. So nice try with the logical contortions.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Young man you had your ass handed to you already once today that I know of. Instead of trolling here with stupid ass question, why don’t you study up a bit first on what it is you are talking about?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:33 PM

What is there to study? You say a fetus is the same as a baby. Therefore someone committing an abortion is a murderer of innocent life. I say ok, good. So what are you doing about the murderer who is continuing to kill…oh, type some angry comments on a blog you say, what a brave soul you are!

I ask you, why dont you take you gun and kill the murderer and prevent more innocent babies from dying. You say “uh, uh you’re dumb”

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

John the Libertarian on January 23, 2013 at 10:35 PM

Its why I used to read her and Hitch. At least they were intellectually honest mostly.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:38 PM

Well, the gloves are off. They aren’t afraid to admit they worship Moloch. Child sacrifice? A-OK.

AZfederalist on January 23, 2013 at 10:39 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Firstly, get it together. I never said, You say “uh, uh you’re dumb” Secondly do you believe in Law?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:39 PM

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

how nice of you to volunteer to take phone calls, while the butcherer of children (abortion doctors) continue to kill innocent kids!! Why are you and the rest of the conservative guntoting brethren not stopping these murderers from killing children? Answer me that. Why are you not stopping them?!

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:39 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

I also never said this, You say a fetus is the same as a baby. Get it together young man lying is for losers. Do you want to grow up a loser?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:41 PM

I ask you, why dont you take you gun and kill the murderer and prevent more innocent babies from dying. You say “uh, uh you’re dumb”

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Do you know the difference between “pro-baby” and “pro-life,” nonthinker?

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 10:41 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM

So the fact that the state sanctions this murderous behavior makes it acceptable at your house? Thanks for the peek behind your facade Adolph.

tommy-t on January 23, 2013 at 10:41 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:39 PM

Do you know how to stop abortion?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM

Good question. I’ve got a better one – Pennsylvania has a section of the criminal code for “crimes against the unborn”. So, if a guy shoots and kills a pregnant woman, he goes down for two homicides. But the law has an exception if a woman wants a doctor to do it for an abortion. Yep. So even the state says it’s murder, unless the perp is a female that okays it.

I’d be all for prosecuting that as murder. For both of them. No passes for the ladies.

Saltyron on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

I ask you, why dont you take you gun and kill the murderer and prevent more innocent babies from dying. You say “uh, uh you’re dumb”

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Hammer??

BigWyo on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

Secondly do you believe in Law?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:39 PM

I believe in law so long as I believe it is reasonable.

Slavery was legal, does that mean I would condone it? no

In Nazi germany, jews were legally treated as second class, does that make it right, no!

If there is a law that says a doctor can kill a 10yr old kid as long as the parents agreed, would I sit idly by and watch a doctor do that because the law says its ok, no!

So, you are saying, because the law says its ok to murder a kid, you will not stop a murderer? Thats your excuse for your cowardice?

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

Hammer??

BigWyo on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

No, is but a child. A young man with mush.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:43 PM

how nice of you to volunteer to take phone calls, while the butcherer of children (abortion doctors) continue to kill innocent kids!! Why are you and the rest of the conservative guntoting brethren not stopping these murderers from killing children? Answer me that. Why are you not stopping them?!

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:39 PM

I was, dipshit. Every child we helped adopt out was one that didn’t suffer an abortionist’s vacuum, curette, or saline syringe. And all non-violently. I would think if you, like so many liberals, supposedly wanted abortion to be “safe, legal, and rare,” you’d thank me for my service to humanity. I only quit working at that center when they quit allowing volunteers to do that job, supposedly for confidentiality reasons.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 10:43 PM

Here you see it folks… The Left is totally emboldened after the last elections and they are not hiding their evil anymore… In a way it is good for our side on the long run…

mnjg on January 23, 2013 at 9:41 PM

Totally agree with you on this. Don’t forget that Liberals represent about 20% of the electorate. The mushy middle voted for a smooth talking Obama.

When you expose them to this type of rhetoric, more often than not, their reaction is

“That is crazy talk.or I don’t agree with that.”

Provide a rational moral alternative.

Small steps….baby steps.

can_con on January 23, 2013 at 10:18 PM

Many hoi polloi liberals don’t even know what eugenics is or it’s history in America.

As to the women….many came of age when Science ruled and being young,they bought the scientific clump of cells lie. They bought the AGW lie etc.

These eugenicists control the media and the education centers and the courts and the social services.

They have targeted the moralists by targeting the churches.

Tuskegee was Eugenics.

I mean Attenborough in the UK said humanity was a plague on the planet and population especially in Africa must be controlled…That is blatant Eugenics 101

Bill Gates’ lapsed catholic wife is on a population control crusade.

Social Engineering (Eugenics) is once again upon us and we are in a generational crisis like everybody else.

Disciples of Machiavelli

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 10:43 PM

I ask you, why dont you take you gun and kill the murderer and prevent more innocent babies from dying. You say “uh, uh you’re dumb”

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

Murder is murder, don’t you get that?

idesign on January 23, 2013 at 10:43 PM

I also never said this, You say a fetus is the same as a baby. Get it together young man lying is for losers. Do you want to grow up a loser?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:41 PM

Do you believe a fetus is a life equal to you and me…yes or no? I apologize for assuming your stance, but most prolifers believe a fetus is an equal life as a human being.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:44 PM

What is there to study? You say a fetus is the same as a baby. Therefore someone committing an abortion is a murderer of innocent life. I say ok, good. So what are you doing about the murderer who is continuing to kill…oh, type some angry comments on a blog you say, what a brave soul you are!

I ask you, why dont you take you gun and kill the murderer and prevent more innocent babies from dying. You say “uh, uh you’re dumb”

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

If you had another brain it would die of lonliness.

tommy-t on January 23, 2013 at 10:44 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:37 PM

If “you” kill the murderer, i.e. the “expectant mother”, you kill the child. Too much for a post-birth abortion candidate such as yourself to grasp, I suppose. That, and murder, all murder, is against the law. Unless your a “mommy” that’s “inconvenienced”.

Saltyron on January 23, 2013 at 10:45 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

Son, murder is not the answer. Please stop putting words into my mouth. I will humor you a bit. At a point that will stop and I will not afford you the courtesy. Like I have said. Study up. You are desperately slinging around insults and false narratives.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:45 PM

Do you believe a fetus is a life equal to you and me…yes or no? I apologize for assuming your stance, but most prolifers believe a fetus is an equal life as a human being.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:44 PM

Do you believe that a post-term baby, unable to take care of itself BUT able to live outside it’s mother’s womb, is a life equal to that of a grown human? If so, why? If not, why not?

We can play these bullshit little games all night, but when a pro-choicer can finally be candid enough to admit that she’s snuffing out a life and just doesn’t care, it puts to lie pretty much every other petty little argument you can come up with.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 10:46 PM

So, you are saying, because the law says its ok to murder a kid, you will not stop a murderer? Thats your excuse for your cowardice?

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

So, when are you forming the posse? You seem pretty committed to the idea.

Saltyron on January 23, 2013 at 10:46 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:44 PM

Riddle me this young man. If at conception it is not life, then why the necessity to extinguish it?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:47 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

Wow..is it heroin or Crank??

I’m going with heroin…you seem so placid and, as far as you’re concerned, lucid and full of wisdom…

Do you main line it or just snort…?

BigWyo on January 23, 2013 at 10:47 PM

Saltyron on January 23, 2013 at 10:45 PM

I was referring to killing abortion doctors. So if you know a man in your neighborhood is on a daily basis killing 10 yr old kids, would you kill him if that was the only option of ending his terror? Or would you not do so in fear of prosecution and going to jail.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:48 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:44 PM

Life is in fact life. I have no right to take one. Except in self defense.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:48 PM

I believe in law so long as I believe it is reasonable.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:42 PM

There are a LOT of unreasonable laws out there. So I take it you’re breaking all of them, or forming your own posse to stamp them out? Perhaps leading your group on that high horse you’re riding?

Saltyron on January 23, 2013 at 10:48 PM

Social Engineering (Eugenics) is once again upon us and we are in a generational crisis like everybody else.

Disciples of Machiavelli

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 10:43 PM

there is nothing new under the sun

tommy-t on January 23, 2013 at 10:48 PM

Hey, this nonpartisan character is advocating violence and murder on this site. Isn’t that ban worthy?

John the Libertarian on January 23, 2013 at 10:49 PM

John the Libertarian on January 23, 2013 at 10:49 PM

Is a child. Normally yes it is ban worthy,he has been careful not to personalize it.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:50 PM

Industrial scale abortion began as deliberate eugenics / genocide, as described by Margaret Sanger herself. It was her intent to eradicate ‘lower races’, NOT secure some sort of ‘liberty’ for woman.
The way it is casually performed and politically advocated today is an obscenity.
Abortion in cases of rape or incest or to save the life of the mother is ethical and necessary. ‘Morality’ crusaders are wrong in that regard, if they are absolutists and demand the product of rape be carried to term. We have too many unwanted parentless children as it is.

I’ve been making much of this nation’s obscene abortion rate in online arguments with Useful Idiots whinging for gun control, challenging them on their assertion that 20 children murdered by a psychotic are grounds to revoke the rights of 100 million law abiding gun owners, yet somehow 330,000 butchered fetuses a year AREN’T?

rayra on January 23, 2013 at 10:50 PM

Riddle me this young man. If at conception it is not life, then why the necessity to extinguish it?

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:47 PM

you’ve answered your own riddle. if at conception it is not life, it is not extinguished…just removed.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:51 PM

Liberals in Texas got upset when Texas forces the sonogram.

Why?

Because the sonogram denies the clump of cells lie and affects the natural instinct in women (who aren’t born sociopaths…and they are rare in the general population)

That is how the eugenicists work…they undermine those things that bind people together, like moral instincts, or family ties and parental authority, or churches, or tradition.

They have to control and dominate through division and fear and confusion.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 10:51 PM

There are a LOT of unreasonable laws out there. So I take it you’re breaking all of them, or forming your own posse to stamp them out? Perhaps leading your group on that high horse you’re riding?

Saltyron on January 23, 2013 at 10:48 PM

really, I haven’t run into that many unreasonable laws. I do jaywalk though.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:51 PM

Hey, this nonpartisan character is advocating violence and murder on this site. Isn’t that ban worthy?

John the Libertarian on January 23, 2013 at 10:49 PM

advocating protecting innocent children from child-butcherers is a bannable offense?!?!

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:53 PM

you’ve answered your own riddle. if at conception it is not life, it is not extinguished…just removed.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:51 PM

And yet, you have yet to address in these comments the admission by a liberal that she knows she is snuffing out a life and just doesn’t care. We’re not the ones making that argument this time. We have the confession of a liberal pro-choicer to bolster our own arguments in the matter. Either you libwits can’t agree on when life does begin, or most of you are just being dishonest and self-deceiving in when you say it does.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 10:53 PM

. There’s a reason the pro-choice movement must euphemize itself to within an inch of its life— because many people don’t want to be on the side of not-life. In any other article, I’d assume “not-life” is a term meant to mock what pro-lifers believe of pro-choicers, but Williams offers such a clear argument on behalf of an actual not-life position, I’m not sure. At any rate, Williams dispenses with the euphemism, and gives us a look at a very different kind of pro-choice message— like an Honest Movie Trailer for left-leaning politicians. “So, abortion ends a life. So what? There are a lot of lives that aren’t very important.”

I don’t euphemize one bit. I call my beliefs pro-death: pro-abortion, pro-death penalty, pro-euthansia, and pro-gun. Death is an inescapable part of life. If you want to embrace life wholely, death must also be embraced.

thuja on January 23, 2013 at 10:54 PM

I was referring to killing abortion doctors. So if you know a man in your neighborhood is on a daily basis killing 10 yr old kids, would you kill him if that was the only option of ending his terror? Or would you not do so in fear of prosecution and going to jail.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:48 PM

Why are you just stopping at the doctor? Why not go to the source, the woman?

And why is this horrible action he’s taking not already criminal and therefor subject to prosecution? Because the doctor has a powerful lobby?

Remember John Brown? Looked at as a hero nowadays. Any position on him? Seems relevant to your query, no?

Saltyron on January 23, 2013 at 10:54 PM

Is a child. Normally yes it is ban worthy,he has been careful not to personalize it.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 10:50 PM

I’ve simply said, I believe we as a society, SHOULD kill people who kill innocent children. I don’t believe anyone disagrees with that here.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:54 PM

advocating protecting innocent children from child-butcherers is a bannable offense?!?!

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:53 PM

It will also get you arrested by the secret service if directed towards certain politicians in high office.

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 10:55 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:28 PM

Because advanced societies with laws have given up on the idea that everything can be settled at the tip of a spear, because if everyone started killing those they thought of as evil we would be swimming in blood.

Bishop on January 23, 2013 at 10:55 PM

really, I haven’t run into that many unreasonable laws. I do jaywalk though.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:51 PM

Name them. And what you plan to do about them. Or are actually doing to stop them. We’ll wait while you Google search an answer.

Saltyron on January 23, 2013 at 10:56 PM

really, I haven’t run into that many unreasonable laws. I do jaywalk though.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:51 PM

Live near an interstate???

BigWyo on January 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM

Of course abortions take lives. And of course those driving the abortion agenda have always known this–but have recognized the need to present such stomach-churning brutality in more palatable terms for people with actual consciences. (“Safe, legal, rare.” “Fetus.” “Clump of cells.” “Choice.”)

But Republicans should just give up on the abortion issue–because people won’t like us and we might not win elections or something./

(A sarc tag doesn’t feel strong enough. That proposal thoroughly disgusts me and would be our party’s own dark “What does it matter?” moment if accepted.)

butterflies and puppies on January 23, 2013 at 11:00 PM

Social Engineering (Eugenics) is once again upon us and we are in a generational crisis like everybody else.

Disciples of Machiavelli

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 10:43 PM

there is nothing new under the sun

tommy-t on January 23, 2013 at 10:48 PM

True.

Infanticide was common and socially supported in Pagan times…Legally the Roman Patriarch had legal control of life and death over every member of his household. He exercised it.

Archeologists uncover mass graves of infants and this is how they identify the brothels.

Liberal eugenicists have changed the language to confuse the people & some things are edited out of the text books while the moralists are shouted down or silenced.

Historical Revisionism is the norm in classrooms and at the UN.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:01 PM

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:51 PM

Son, I’m done with you. You are being dishonest in this discussion. You are trolling. Too bad. I gave you way more leeway than most.It won’t happen again.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 11:01 PM

(A sarc tag doesn’t feel strong enough. That proposal thoroughly disgusts me and would be our party’s own dark “What does it matter?” moment if accepted.)

butterflies and puppies on January 23, 2013 at 11:00 PM

Isn’t that basically how abortion is approached by the Republican party now? I couldn’t tell the difference…

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:02 PM

http://www.salon.com/2008/09/10/palin_10/

Hence I have always frankly admitted that abortion is murder, the extermination of the powerless by the powerful. Liberals for the most part have shrunk from facing the ethical consequences of their embrace of abortion, which results in the annihilation of concrete individuals and not just clumps of insensate tissue. The state in my view has no authority whatever to intervene in the biological processes of any woman’s body, which nature has implanted there before birth and hence before that woman’s entrance into society and citizenship.- Camille Paglia

If murder is acceptable to this woman then why wouldn’t violating a womans right to own independence also be acceptable?

Why can’t the state in fact murder that same woman as she is just one of the powerless being exterminated by the powerful?

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:02 PM

Bmore

I answered one of your posts over on QOTD, going back to work, no playing in the glade there! Good luck with the kid, he seems a bit wet behind the ears on this whole question of life thing, and consequences!

MarshFox on January 23, 2013 at 11:03 PM

If murder is acceptable to this woman then why wouldn’t violating a womans right to own independence also be acceptable?

Why can’t the state in fact murder that same woman as she is just one of the powerless being exterminated by the powerful?

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:02 PM

I think we all know why. There’s absolutely no reason or logic to the pro-choice mentality. None. The moment “I’m killing a life and I don’t care” becomes anything other than inherently revolting is the moment we know our civilization has crumbled and America ceases to be anything special at all.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:04 PM

MarshFox on January 23, 2013 at 11:03 PM

I’ll go check now. I’m done with the young man. I tried.

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 11:04 PM

MarshFox on January 23, 2013 at 10:45 PM

Got it. ; )

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 11:06 PM

I don’t euphemize one bit. I call my beliefs pro-death: pro-abortion, pro-death penalty, pro-euthansia, and pro-gun. Death is an inescapable part of life. If you want to embrace life wholely, death must also be embraced.

thuja on January 23, 2013 at 10:54 PM

I suppose you bought Nietzsche hook line and sinker didn’t ya….

nihilism…how quaint

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:07 PM

I’ve simply said, I believe we as a society, SHOULD kill people who kill innocent children. I don’t believe anyone disagrees with that here.

nonpartisan on January 23, 2013 at 10:54 PM

No. Ed Morrisey opposes the death penalty. He doesn’t think we should kill people who kill innocent children. Let there be no doubt that Ed is a mainstream conservative.
Many people such as myself–not so mainstream of a conservative–think killing human fetuses not wanted by their mother is morally fine. I want to praise people who help the mother do the killing. I certainly don’t want them murdered or hindered in any way.

thuja on January 23, 2013 at 11:07 PM

I think we all know why. There’s absolutely no reason or logic to the pro-choice mentality. None. The moment “I’m killing a life and I don’t care” becomes anything other than inherently revolting is the moment we know our civilization has crumbled and America ceases to be anything special at all.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:04 PM

They are simply justifying their own behavior and personal whims with a cheap splash of ideology.

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:07 PM

I always had my own, weird way of looking at abortion: Yes, it’s taking a life. But only because that life is dependent upon another’s life. To ban abortion is to say that the mother has to give up control of her own life: her career, her health, her education, her social and economic standing may have to be sacrificed for this other life, even if it is without her consent and against her will. That’s not quite slavery, but it is a form of imposed risk and burden I’m not personally willing to demand someone else assume.

On the other hand, I think Roe v. Wade should be thrown out as a decision that corrupts the Constitution (let the states decide), and Obama’s support for murder by criminal neglect of babies born through attempted abortion is an abomination.

Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

I suppose you bought Nietzsche hook line and sinker didn’t ya….

nihilism…how quaint

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:07 PM

Dude, a little philosophical factoid for you: Nietzsche opposed nihilism.

thuja on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

Many people such as myself–not so mainstream of a conservative–think killing human fetuses not wanted by their mother is morally fine. I want to praise people who help the mother do the killing. I certainly don’t want them murdered or hindered in any way.

thuja on January 23, 2013 at 11:07 PM

Yet another reason for the 2nd Amendment and sturdy door locks, people like this are out there amongst us.

Bishop on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

Great post, MK. All I can assume is that most “pro-choice” (I so hate that term) folks simply don’t want to think that hard. Bottom line for them… it’s about “choice” in a completely non-specific sense of empowerment.

MT on January 23, 2013 at 11:10 PM

They are simply justifying their own behavior and personal whims with a cheap splash of ideology.

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:07 PM

Personally, I find this level of honesty quite refreshing. It reveals the pro-aborts for the ghoulish sociopaths they really are.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:11 PM

If murder is acceptable to this woman then why wouldn’t violating a womans right to own independence also be acceptable?

Why can’t the state in fact murder that same woman as she is just one of the powerless being exterminated by the powerful?

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:02 PM

Kinda belies the facade of equality as well doesn’t it?

I mean Men killing anything = Bad…Bad…evil violent Men

Women killing babies in their bodies = Special Exception?

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:11 PM

…Men killing anything = Bad…Bad…evil violent Men

Women killing babies in their bodies = Special Exception?

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:11 PM

I’ll reiterate a question I asked upthread:

How do you reconcile the legality of abortion with the existence of fetal homicide laws?

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:14 PM

To ban abortion is to say that the mother has to give up control of her own life: her career, her health, her education, her social and economic standing may have to be sacrificed for this other life, even if it is without her consent and against her will. That’s not quite slavery, but it is a form of imposed risk and burden I’m not personally willing to demand someone else assume.

Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

Doesn’t that also apply to mothers?
And fathers?
And all those drafted men who fought in World War Two?
And taxpayers?

We all make sacrifices that are demanded of us.

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:14 PM

Dude, a little philosophical factoid for you: Nietzsche opposed nihilism.

thuja on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

That is open to debate amongst the academics.

So I’ll use misanthrope…that fits too.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:15 PM

Godwin’s Law is officially revoked.

INC on January 23, 2013 at 11:16 PM

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:14 PM

Likewise, the sickeningly whiny tone of Socratease’s post shows off what the REAL agenda is: women having to give up the choice of fobbing off the costs of their irresponsibility to someone else.

I don’t even ask that she be made to keep the baby; she already wants to kill it now, forcing her to raise it will end badly. But I will not cower from the mewling nonsense of “giving up control” so that their foolishness can get bailouts on my tax dollar.

MelonCollie on January 23, 2013 at 11:19 PM

To ban abortion is to say that the mother has to give up control of her own life: her career, her health, her education, her social and economic standing may have to be sacrificed for this other life, even if it is without her consent and against her will. That’s not quite slavery, but it is a form of imposed risk and burden I’m not personally willing to demand someone else assume.

Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

Interesting take, but there is a slight flaw to your logic here. We are not talking about immaculate conception. The mother already gave her consent which led to conception.

can_con on January 23, 2013 at 11:20 PM

How do you reconcile the legality of abortion with the existence of fetal homicide laws?

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:14 PM

I’m Catholic and follow Church Teaching.

Abortion like Infanticide & Euthanasia are against natural law and threaten the culture at every level.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:21 PM

Yet I know that throughout my own pregnancies, I never wavered for a moment in the belief that I was carrying a human life inside of me. I believe that’s what a fetus is: a human life. And that doesn’t make me one iota less solidly pro-choice.

Wow.

Is this is not the plain face of psychopathic/sociopathic evil speaking, I don’t know what it is. What else can you call it when when one suggests that the wholly premeditated taking of human life is acceptable?

As a matter of self-defense, our society already has wrestled with the appropriate penalty for those who willingly if not eagerly commit murder.

Midas on January 23, 2013 at 11:21 PM

I don’t even ask that she be made to keep the baby; she already wants to kill it now, forcing her to raise it will end badly. But I will not cower from the mewling nonsense of “giving up control” so that their foolishness can get bailouts on my tax dollar.

MelonCollie on January 23, 2013 at 11:19 PM

As well you shouldn’t when adoption is an option. “Keep the baby or kill it” is a false choice of the worst possible kind if you ask me.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:22 PM

How do you reconcile the legality of abortion with the existence of fetal homicide laws?

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:14 PM

Easy. Just cough a lot and say “next question” as you pander for votes.

John the Libertarian on January 23, 2013 at 11:23 PM

Doesn’t that also apply to mothers?
And fathers?
And all those drafted men who fought in World War Two?
And taxpayers?

Not sure what you mean about mothers and fathers. If they voluntarily assume that burden, it’s theirs. And that should be encouraged.

I wouldn’t vote for a draft, either. But I’d probably have volunteered.

Taxes should be minimized and not wasted, but they don’t risk anybody’s life. You might as well say that food, clothing, and housing should be a right.

Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:23 PM

As well you shouldn’t when adoption is an option. “Keep the baby or kill it” is a false choice of the worst possible kind if you ask me.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:22 PM

I know, I’m just saying that to make my position absolutely clear.

MelonCollie on January 23, 2013 at 11:24 PM

I’m Catholic and follow Church Teaching.

Abortion like Infanticide & Euthanasia are against natural law and threaten the culture at every level.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:21 PM

I consider myself a lapsed Catholic, but that is one rather stark area in which the church (along with many other denominations and even other religions) is spot-on. You can not rationally support fetal homicide laws AND be pro-choice in my mind. The implications of such rationalization (that a woman’s choice, and that alone, is the deciding factor in whether a baby lives or dies) chill me to the very core of my being.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:24 PM

women having to give up the choice of fobbing off the costs of their irresponsibility to someone else.

I don’t even ask that she be made to keep the baby; she already wants to kill it now, forcing her to raise it will end badly. But I will not cower from the mewling nonsense of “giving up control” so that their foolishness can get bailouts on my tax dollar.

MelonCollie on January 23, 2013 at 11:19 PM

That is what annoys me as well. Too many women don’t want to be held to any standard at all if it interferes with what they currently want. The women in combat thread, where the rules will be relaxed is an example. This issue is another. It starts to get old fast.

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:24 PM

To ban abortion is to say that the mother has to give up control of her own life: her career, her health, her education, her social and economic standing may have to be sacrificed for this other life, even if it is without her consent and against her will. That’s not quite slavery, but it is a form of imposed risk and burden I’m not personally willing to demand someone else assume.

Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

Socrates would be disappointed that you chose to besmirch his name with your nick. That was some exceptionally feeble logic there, champ. Not only did she willingly choose to participate in the action that resulted in the pregnancy (certainly far more times than not), but outside of the pregnancy arena, people have to live with the consequences of their actions, whether they like the consequences or not – why would you hope that pregnancy can be different?

Perhaps if murder solved other instances of ‘inconvenient and undesirable consequences’, we’d allow that murder? Or is that just more ridiculous excuse-making? /rhetorical question

Midas on January 23, 2013 at 11:26 PM

On one hand, I truly appreciate her honesty— both for its boldness in its literal brutality and in the same way I wish gun-control advocates would just say they want to ban all guns if they want to ban guns.

Makes no sense. They want to ban guns to save lives…they want to have a choice as to who lives and who doesn’t.

So, what exactly is wrong someone like Lanza choosing who lives and who dies?

Just trying to follow their “logic” here.

Dr. ZhivBlago on January 23, 2013 at 11:26 PM

Not sure what you mean about mothers and fathers. If they voluntarily assume that burden, it’s theirs. And that should be encouraged.

Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:23 PM

They have to make the same sacrifices that a pregnant woman does.

Can they toss that six year old kid in the trash can if they don’t want him/her anymore?

sharrukin on January 23, 2013 at 11:27 PM

The sad fact is that if you just changed the word “baby” to “puppy”, liberals would scream for the practice to be banned.

John the Libertarian on January 23, 2013 at 11:27 PM

Perhaps if murder solved other instances of ‘inconvenient and undesirable consequences’, we’d allow that murder? Or is that just more ridiculous excuse-making? /rhetorical question

Well, we do have things we call “accidents” that can have fatal results. Sometimes penalties are imposed, sometimes not.

Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:29 PM

Sometimes Bishop I wonder about you. Is he just farting around or is he serious. Then you say something like this and remove all doubt.

Because advanced societies with laws have given up on the idea that everything can be settled at the tip of a spear, because if everyone started killing those they thought of as evil we would be swimming in blood.

Bishop on January 23, 2013 at 10:55 PM

Bmore on January 23, 2013 at 11:29 PM

To ban abortion is to say that the mother has to give up control of her own life: her career, her health, her education, her social and economic standing may have to be sacrificed for this other life, even if it is without her consent and against her will.
Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

We live in a culture where Abortion is sold as a form of birth control…a life style choice…A personal right

How many women (Particularly young ones) are pressured to get abortions because of your reasoning…by the fathers or the families.

The liberals have never been honest about the agenda or the facts.

The public shudders…

It is ugly….damned ugly.

Eugenics is ugly.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:32 PM

Godwin’s Law is officially revoked.

INC on January 23, 2013 at 11:16 PM

It’s weird, the Nazi’s were mere students to the Democrat party and committed less atrocities, and yet it’s the Nazi’s that Godwin’s applies to and not democrats.

Flange on January 23, 2013 at 11:32 PM

Many people such as myself–not so mainstream of a conservative–think killing human fetuses not wanted by their mother is morally fine. I want to praise people who help the mother do the killing. I certainly don’t want them murdered or hindered in any way.

thuja on January 23, 2013 at 11:07 PM

Yet another reason for the 2nd Amendment and sturdy door locks, people like this are out there amongst us.

Bishop on January 23, 2013 at 11:09 PM

That’s so cute. Let’s pretend the people who disagree with you are dangerous psychopaths. Maybe the pro-life movement would like to come up with a real argument and not a pathetic excuse for ad hominum argument. I think all pro-lifers are pedophiles. Just my guess, you know.

thuja on January 23, 2013 at 11:37 PM

I’m Catholic and follow Church Teaching.

Abortion like Infanticide & Euthanasia are against natural law and threaten the culture at every level.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:21 PM

I consider myself a lapsed Catholic, but that is one rather stark area in which the church (along with many other denominations and even other religions) is spot-on. You can not rationally support fetal homicide laws AND be pro-choice in my mind. The implications of such rationalization (that a woman’s choice, and that alone, is the deciding factor in whether a baby lives or dies) chill me to the very core of my being.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:24 PM

The RCC has issues…it always has.

On the principles of natural law…they have been consistent in the ancient battle with the pagans.

Eugenics as it’s called now is a symptom of the ancient Pagan enemy at work.

It is Black and White in church doctrine & The Pope would say we answer to a higher authority.

Abortion is injustice.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:38 PM

It’s weird, the Nazi’s were mere students to the Democrat party and committed less atrocities, and yet it’s the Nazi’s that Godwin’s applies to and not democrats.

Flange on January 23, 2013 at 11:32 PM

What’s more, the Nazi’s took a broken wreck of a nation and turned it into a powerhouse that, had it not allied with Japan and thus earned our wrath, might well have owned all of Europe. Maybe more!

Democrats by comparison took a superpower and wrecked it.

MelonCollie on January 23, 2013 at 11:38 PM

We live in a culture where Abortion is sold as a form of birth control…a life style choice…A personal right

It is ugly….damned ugly.

I don’t disagree. Abortion isn’t something that should be encouraged or subsidized. It should be discouraged to a large extent.

Socratease on January 23, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Flange on January 23, 2013 at 11:32 PM

Good point. Violence was out in the open sooner with Nazi atrocities because it was harder for them to hide what they were doing when you’re dealing with adults and families. Unborn babies are small, and their body parts are more easily disposed of.

INC on January 23, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Abortion is injustice.

workingclass artist on January 23, 2013 at 11:38 PM

That’s putting it mildly.

gryphon202 on January 23, 2013 at 11:40 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4