Democrats want courts involved in debt-limit standoff

…when you pack ‘em….you want to use ‘em!

RWM rocks. ;) Is there ANY case law on this at all?

wolly4321 on January 8, 2013 at 10:55 AM

Sorry that I didn’t get back to your earlier. I had an appointment this afternoon. Thx for the “rocks.”

As to your question, not completely on point (of course, we’ve never had anyone propose to mint a $1 trillion coin out of thin air either), but Perry v. United States, 294 U.S. 330 (1935), makes it clear that it is CONGRESS’ power, not the President’s power to borrow money on the credit of the United States, etc.

What happens when Democrats decide they don’t have to listen to the courts, either?

Whether one likes it or not, the debt limit belongs to Congress. The President can neither borrow or spend without authorization from the legislative branch.

Meh. What do a bunch of old dead white guys know, anyway.

Rule of law is dead. We already ignore the Constitution regularly and democrats love it. More lefties are imported, some holding signs calling for the death of America, and our children are indoctrinated.

Maybe it is too late but I have small children. I have to fight and the ballot box is not enough.

The fight must be taken to the media first and then the schools (school choice) and wherever else is necessary.

Organize, coordinate or be wiped out.

But how the courts will rule is shrouded in uncertainty because little case law exists to serve as meaningful precedent, say legal scholars.

Yeah. “Legal scholars”. They might have to fall back and read that nasty ol’ Constitution.

How high will the interest rate have to be to get people to buy that debt? Have fun, Dems

Richard Nixon attempted to sequester (refuse to spend money authorized by Congress). The Supreme Court ruled that he did not have that discretion.

FirelandsO3 on January 8, 2013 at 10:08 AM

That’s what prompted passage of the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 which details and governs the budget process and is the law which Harry Reidiculous has been violating for 1,350 days now. Can’t imagine Obamuh refusing to spend money authorized by Congress since he’s so eager to spend money not authorized by Congress–or anyone else.

Resist We Much on January 8, 2013 at 10:36 AM

If deadrody gets the Daisy reference, I will be impressed. lol!

Is there ANY case law on this at all?

At that point he and Bernanke essentially run this country, at least until the entire economy implodes.

Doughboy on January 8, 2013 at 9:05 AM

At that point? I think you missed the train leaving the station, friend. Pretty much everything is already in the executive branch’s hands.

Really interesting Resist. Thank you for the typing.

Axe on January 8, 2013 at 10:16 AM

You’re welcome. There are NO stupid questions coming from you.

deadrody, if you want to see stupid questions statements (we don’t need to ask no steekin’ questions ‘cuz we know all the answers for Obama and Krugman told us so – sing to “Jesus Loves Me”), then look for libenslavedthendie, chump&dumbThreads, somewhere a motherland has lost its idiot, and DAISY, etc.

Axe on January 8, 2013 at 10:16 AM

Lol! ; )

Why ? Are you stupid ?

deadrody on January 8, 2013 at 10:10 AM

If I were stupid, I wouldn’t be able to tell you I was, and if you weren’t stupid, you wouldn’t have asked. I think we understand each other.

Intragovernmental debt, on the other hand, is not secured and is only payable as long as the Treasury has funds. By law, it CANNOT be sold on the open market. For example . . .

Resist We Much on January 8, 2013 at 10:07 AM

Really interesting Resist. Thank you for the typing.

CoffeeLover on January 8, 2013 at 8:49 AM

FIFY

Now someone point to me where the US Constitution mandates that Congress must still spend (beyond providing a defense and providing for the common welfare)? Is green energy the “common welfare”? How about buying auto and insurance companies. I guess Roberts could argue that all this spending is for our common welfare…….

We’re SCREWED. But that’s not a new thing. It’s been going on since Nov. 6, 2012.

IOW, WE CANNOT DEFAULT ON THE DEBT. BY LAW, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MUST PAY THE DEBT SERVICE FIRST.

Resist We Much on January 8, 2013 at 9:42 AM

Not to be confused with raising the debt ceiling should more debt be required to pay the debt service and additional charges.

Social Security, Medicare, payroll for the employees of the EPA, food stamps? None of those are considered “public debt.”

Explain plz.

Axe on January 8, 2013 at 9:47 AM

Why ? Are you stupid ? Entitlements are not “debt”. That is simply a fact. And Resist made it plainly clear. The US generates more than $100 Billion in revenue each month. Debt service is no more than $25 Billion. You pay that $25 Billion, the debt is repaid, serviced, taken care of, etc. How you spend the remaining $75 Billion is immaterial to the debt and the debt ceiling. No need to “borrow more” to pay the debt. Simple

Social Security, Medicare, payroll for the employees of the EPA, food stamps? None of those are considered “public debt.”

Explain plz.

Public debt is that debt (Treasury notes, bonds) sold by the Treasury to the public (China, Japan, banks). It is NOT intragovernmental debt, such as the IOUs held in the “safety” of the Social Security Trust Fund. By law, public debt may not be questioned. Also, by law, intragovernmental debt may not be sold on the open market – and this is where the farce of the various Trust Funds comes into play.

Let’s take the Social Security Trust Fund. In 1937, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Federal government’s ability to tax for the “general welfare” to provide for old age relief, ie, Social Security, in Helvering v. Davis, 301 U.S. 619. The Court also said that the proceeds of both the employee and employer payroll taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like any other internal revenue generally, and are not earmarked in any way. Nevertheless, a sort of fiction was set up where the SSA created a “Trust Fund” that “invested” payroll taxes in “securities” backed with the “full faith and credit of the United States” (IOW, treasuries). Because one government agency is purchasing securities from another, this is called “intragovernmental debt.”

Under the law of payments, debt held by the public – that is, treasuries held in the hands of the public – is secured (as well as it can be) and has priority over all other debt. It must be paid first. It also can be sold by the owner. For example, China can dump all of its US treasuries and there is nothing that the US can do other than warn how badly such a move might affect the global economy.

Intragovernmental debt, on the other hand, is not secured and is only payable as long as the Treasury has funds. By law, it CANNOT be sold on the open market. For example, let’s say that the government shut down for 6 months and there were not Social Security cheques. Unlike Goldman-Sachs, which COULD sell its treasuries, those allegedly fabu IOUs in the Social Security Trust Fund would…wait for…be worthless and remain in the Social Security Trust Fund. Even if the SSA remained open while the rest of the government shut down, IT COULD NOT SELL ITS INTRAGOVERNMENTAL DEBT ON THE OPEN MARKET. THOSE BLESSED IOUs IN THE SOCIAL SECURITY TRUST FUND ARE ONLY WORTH WHAT THE TREASURY IS ABLE TO PAY FOR THEM. They cannot be sold by the SSA outside of the government on the open market.

Or, for the gov’t to PRIORITIZE what payments it will make with the revenue it DOES get, without spending more than that and having to borrow money. You know, like you would with a budget.

Hitting the debt ceiling does not force the US to default. Someone with serious national credibility needs to get in front of a camera and make this clear to the american public. This crisis does not require the US to default. It just requires the gov’t to only spend the amount of revenue it generates. Which is the way it should work anyhow.

“We don’t anticipate that.”

lol

Axe on January 8, 2013 at 9:34 AM

Better yet, he said it with a straight face.
The discipline he demonstrated that day was simply staggering.
No way, I could have held myself in check.

IOW, WE CANNOT DEFAULT ON THE DEBT. BY LAW, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MUST PAY THE DEBT SERVICE FIRST.

Resist We Much on January 8, 2013 at 9:42 AM

Not to be confused with raising the debt ceiling should more debt be required to pay the debt service and additional charges.

Social Security, Medicare, payroll for the employees of the EPA, food stamps? None of those are considered “public debt.”

Explain plz.