Mom shoots intruder, saves kids

posted at 2:01 pm on January 6, 2013 by Jazz Shaw

How many times during the recent gun grabbing debate have you heard these arguments?

Self defense is a bogus argument. Having a gun in your home, you’re more likely to shoot yourself or your spouse than to ever fend off a bad guy. Only trained law enforcement professionals can safely use weapons like that.

May I introduce you to Donnie Herman’s wife

The woman was working in an upstairs office when she spotted a strange man outside a window, according to Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman. He said she took her 9-year-old twins to a crawlspace before the man broke in using a crowbar.

But the man eventually found the family.

“The perpetrator opens that door. Of course, at that time he’s staring at her, her two children and a .38 revolver,” Chapman told Channel 2’s Kerry Kavanaugh.

The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved.

The intruder, 32-year-old Atlanta resident Paul Slate, had been out of jail for all of four months or so, one of six arrests since 2008. He fled the house but crashed his car a short distance away and collapsed where he was found on the ground by police. So how is old Paul doing now?

Chapman said they found him on the ground saying, “Help me. I’m close to dying.” Slater was taken to Gwinnett Medical Center for treatment. Chapman said Slater was shot in the face and neck…

Channel 2’s Amy Napier Viteri learned from Chapman late Friday night that slater has been placed on a ventilator and suffers from punctured lungs, a punctured liver and a punctured stomach.

He said if Slater survives the night, doctors will try to operate in the morning to repair the damage.

Chapman said Slater has four exit wounds.

The woman’s husband was short and succinct on the subject.

“My wife is a hero. She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do as responsible, prepared gun owner,” Donnie Herman said.

He said he’s thankful for his family’s safety.

“Her life is saved, and her kids’ life is saved, and that’s all I’d like to say,” Herman said.

I don’t have a lot to add to this story beyond highlighting it and opening it up for your consideration and discussion. But I would add one note of caution. Thus far the woman in question doesn’t seem to be talking to the press and that’s her right. Regardless of her success in defending her family, Donnie Herman’s wife has undoubtedly been through a traumatic experience and if she wants to maintain her privacy and not turn this into some sort of circus side show, the media should respect her wishes.

But she can still serve as a useful example as we consider any future Second Amendment questions. Everyone called Wayne LaPierre crazy when he said that the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun. Or sometimes, a good lady with a gun. Food for thought.


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cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 10:29 PM

First squeeze tells the story. The day I got my 1911, I took it down to the range, put a paster on the A in an IPSC silhouette, ran it out to 7 yds (indoor range) and put in a magazine of 230gr RN. The first squeeze touched all four sides of the half in. paster.

Ever want to declare victory and walk away? Up until then my primaries were a HiPower and a TZ75 series 88. Never looked back. I do still love the HiPower though.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:03 PM

Which is why I still consider the 12-gauge shotgun the ultimate home-defense weapon. With the spread, the perp usually is in heap big trouble.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:02 PM

It is also very good for the intimidation factor as well.

Dragonsbreath rounds would also be very cool, but sadly impractical for home defense.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 11:05 PM

But here is just one: You CAN fire the older .38 Short and .38 Long Colt ammo in a .38 Special / .357 Mag.

Cant imagine why anyone would except in extremis, but they fit and will go about where you point them.

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:03 PM

Have you tried fitting .38 Special into a .38?

Now you make me want to recheck next time I run across that combo.

IIRC, they did not fit.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:06 PM

( E X P L E T I V E )

The link to http://www.wcpa.biz isn’t working right.

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:07 PM

This was a good story with a happy ending so we’ll definitely never hear it from the MSM. Someone earlier in the thread mention Dick Cheney’s hunting accident. I love when liberals bring that up. I always respond by saying, “In Cheney’s defense, the person he shot was a lawyer.” I love the short circuited look on their faces and the accompanying silence.

ghostwalker1 on January 6, 2013 at 11:09 PM

The R4 is similar to an Israeli Galil and fires .223 ammunition which is a lot more powerful than a .45.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 10:57 PM

It’s not about how much energy the bullet has leaving the barrel, it’s about how much it imparts to the target when it hits. It’s all about the terminal ballistics.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:09 PM

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:03 PM

I’m not an expert… just sharing some general stuff I have noticed and picked up… so thanks for your info. Maybe I am wrong.

I stand behind my thoughts on home-defense and choosing the correct shells so as not to kill your neighbor on his couch. I’ve shot enough old Detroit steel to see the power of #00s and slugs… :-/

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:11 PM

I remember now. The 38 Special round was too long to fit the .38 cylinder.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:12 PM

It’s not about how much energy the bullet has leaving the barrel, it’s about how much it imparts to the target when it hits. It’s all about the terminal ballistics.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:09 PM

True enough. Some weaker rounds do more damage because they impart more of their energy in the target, or because of the behavior of the round after it enters the body.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 11:12 PM

It is also very good for the intimidation factor as well.

Dragonsbreath rounds would also be very cool, but sadly impractical for home defense.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 11:05 PM

The noise the slide makes can be helpful with casual burglars… but it’s a gamble because it gives away your position.

Nothing can beat the spread, though, shot in a darkened room when someone has broken into your home!

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:14 PM

I stand behind my thoughts on home-defense and choosing the correct shells so as not to kill your neighbor on his couch. I’ve shot enough old Detroit steel to see the power of #00s and slugs… :-/

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:11 PM

If you can find #2, you’re absolutely right. In general think : Bird, Buck, slug.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:15 PM

Ever want to declare victory and walk away? Up until then my primaries were a HiPower and a TZ75 series 88. Never looked back. I do still love the HiPower though.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:03 PM

There’s a lot to be said for carrying the biggest punch you can without breaking your wrist. It really sucks if your caliber kills the guy but not before he squeezes off three more rounds at you.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:16 PM

If you can find #2, you’re absolutely right. In general think : Bird, Buck, slug.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:15 PM

I am in accord.

The reason for my concern about choosing the correct shells for your neighbor situation is that if bad things can happen, they can happen. I would rather be killed in a break-in than know that I had killed my neighbor, his wife or daughter or son or parent in my own self-defense by shooting through a wall or window. That would be the worst.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:18 PM

True enough. Some weaker rounds do more damage because they impart more of their energy in the target, or because of the behavior of the round after it enters the body.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 11:12 PM

This is why my uncle prefers a .243 for deer hunting, rather than .270, .308 or 30-06. The deer falls, instead of running away, because the round bounces around.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:20 PM

The noise the slide makes can be helpful with casual burglars… but it’s a gamble because it gives away your position.

Most burglars or intruders are looking for easy prey, so its probably better to make it clear that you can defend yourself. What you shouldn’t do is make threats, particularly a women because under those conditions it likely would sound more frightened than frightening.

Nothing can beat the spread, though, shot in a darkened room when someone has broken into your home!

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:14 PM

That’s true, but you should practice even with a shotgun at close range to know ahead of time what to expect. Just being comfortable with the weapon would help most people.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 11:21 PM

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:06 PM

Re-read what I said and what you said at 10:39.

Although I admit that what you may have meant at 10:39 may have not been what I interpreted it to mean.

Yes, definitely a .38 special won’t fit into a .38 short, and if it does fit into a sloppily reamed chamber meant for the .38 Long, you might blow out the cylinder.

Oh, and a rolled up towel between shoulder and butt for a slug shooting novice? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Folded maybe. Rolled up? Likely to cause more pain.
I’d recommend a recoil pad if someone is worried about a bruise. They make slip on ones for just a few bucks that would be so much safer, if you don’t want to install a real one.

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:21 PM

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:16 PM

It wasn’t needing the bigger round, It was that I found the .45 to be a more accurate round than the 9mm. I always shot better groups out of friends 1911′s or Para-ords than I did from the HP, The TZ, or 92′s. The ergonomics aren’t quite as good for me on magazing changes, or basic “feel” compared to the HiPower, but I do shoot better with the 1911.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:22 PM

If you can find #2, you’re absolutely right. In general think : Bird, Buck, slug.

Fighton03
on January 6, 2013 at 11:15 PM

.
I am in accord.

The reason for my concern about choosing the correct shells for your neighbor situation is that if bad things can happen, they can happen. I would rather be killed in a break-in than know that I had killed my neighbor, his wife or daughter or son or parent in my own self-defense by shooting through a wall or window. That would be the worst.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:18 PM

.
For inside the home, wouldn’t #4 turkey loads do well without endangering your neighbor(s)?

I do agree with Cane’ that accidently killing a neighbor would be much worse.

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:26 PM

I stand behind my thoughts on home-defense and choosing the correct shells so as not to kill your neighbor on his couch. I’ve shot enough old Detroit steel to see the power of #00s and slugs… :-/
cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:11 PM

No argument there:

Overpenetration is one of the things I’ve always worked hard to prevent, although terminal ballistics are more my concern than going too far and hitting my neighbor. Fortunately, I’d need a mortar to do that, with a small mountain being in the way.

My shotguns have loads much the same loadings that you recommend.

But I’m a pistol guy at heart, so that is where most of my development work and practice is concentrated.

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:31 PM

Re-read what I said and what you said at 10:39.

Although I admit that what you may have meant at 10:39 may have not been what I interpreted it to mean.

Yes, definitely a .38 special won’t fit into a .38 short, and if it does fit into a sloppily reamed chamber meant for the .38 Long, you might blow out the cylinder.

Oh, and a rolled up towel between shoulder and butt for a slug shooting novice? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Folded maybe. Rolled up? Likely to cause more pain.
I’d recommend a recoil pad if someone is worried about a bruise. They make slip on ones for just a few bucks that would be so much safer, if you don’t want to install a real one.

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:21 PM

I see what you’re saying about 10:39. My memory had failed me, and I had it backward. I appreciate the correction. I am out of practice and not as deeply versed as some, though I do have some knowledge, especially about shotgun basics & what the various rounds do to different materials.

As far as the rolled-up towel, I meant rolled and folded, to get more thickness. I figured that folks competent enough to handle their gun could figure out how to center it so there wouldn’t be a disaster. Sure, a slip-on pad is the best way to go. Just thought that if someone wanted to practice a few slugs and didn’t have one, I wanted to warn them that they may not like the black and blue marks when wearing a bikini. If they hurt themselves with a towel in practice, then maybe they shouldn’t be firing a shotgun, was sort of my thinking.

Your advice is good.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:32 PM

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:26 PM

absolutely…just never seemed to find a consistent supply in my area. Seems 6 and 8 was the most common. Lot of Dove hunters in SoCal. Relatively speaking.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:32 PM

For inside the home, wouldn’t #4 turkey loads do well without endangering your neighbor(s)?

I do agree with Cane’ that accidently killing a neighbor would be much worse.

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:26 PM

#4 is what I load for the first home defense rounds, but #2 might be better, without overpenetration in apartments, but I dunno. I have never done a sheet-metal comparison between #2 and #4. #6 is too light, IMO.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:34 PM

But I’m a pistol guy at heart, so that is where most of my development work and practice is concentrated.

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:31 PM

I don’t know my pistols as well, so I bow to you, Sir ;)

So what mortar rounds do you recommend in case the neighbor two houses over pisses me off?

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:37 PM

That’s true, but you should practice even with a shotgun at close range to know ahead of time what to expect. Just being comfortable with the weapon would help most people.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 11:21 PM

Yes…… I find a huge difference between short and long barrel in the house. I would feel very uncomfortable trying to swing a long barrel indoors. Short barrel stays on when it’s in the abode.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:40 PM

I don’t know my pistols as well, so I bow to you, Sir ;)

So what mortar rounds do you recommend in case the neighbor two houses over pisses me off?

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:37 PM

I’m being light-hearted – not sarcastic, BTW.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:41 PM

absolutely…just never seemed to find a consistent supply in my area. Seems 6 and 8 was the most common. Lot of Dove hunters in SoCal. Relatively speaking.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:32 PM

You may need to order online?

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:42 PM

So what mortar rounds do you recommend in case the neighbor two houses over pisses me off?
cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:37 PM

Heh.
One of these, maybe.?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_89_grenade_discharger

An 81 or even a 60 would probably make your next door neighbor in between just as unhappy as if you used 000 buck or slugs.

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:43 PM

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:31 PM

.
I don’t know my pistols as well, so I bow to you, Sir ;)

So what mortar rounds do you recommend in case the neighbor two houses over pisses me off?

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:37 PM

.
Holy balls, man. This blog is being monitored by Homeland Security, FBI, the Secret Service . . . . . . . . . . . .

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:44 PM

Holy balls, man. This blog is being monitored by Homeland Security, FBI, the Secret Service . . . . . . . . . . . .

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:44 PM

Who needs mortars when the Chinese are shipping more-powerful fireworks each year? I swear at New Year’s the neighbors (several houses worth) were shooting stuff as loud and concussive as mortars!

*WHUMPF —– POWWWWW!*

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:46 PM

Holy balls, man. This blog is being monitored by Homeland Security, FBI, the Secret Service . . . . . . . . . . . .

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:44 PM

Yeah, and HuffPo and DailyBeast. Discussing how to safeguard one’s neighbor in the event of a home-invasion break-in is SOOOOOO redneck!

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:48 PM

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:46 PM

Well, they are called Mortars in the fireworks stores….

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:49 PM

Taurus makes a nice J model 5 shot 357 Mag.Same size as the 38 special Taurus.Plus you can use 38 in it also.Price about the same but twice the bang for the bucks.

logman1 on January 6, 2013 at 6:10 PM

I have the .38 special because the guy at the gun store said it was the right size for me, but I shot my dad’s Ruger .357 and I didn’t notice much difference. This is how dumb I am, I thought a .38 was bigger than a .357

Night Owl on January 6, 2013 at 11:50 PM

You may need to order online?

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:42 PM

never thought about that for ammo, only components. Honestly it’s been a long time since I’ve thought about this topic. Once you set up a load you don’t change around much. Time to rethink.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:52 PM

I would hope that even a TSA operative would be able to recognize that we were joking quite frivolously about that…..

Oh, wait. What am I talking about. 0bama has gotten rid of any agents in all agencies who are able to think .

You are right Listens2. We shouldn’t even joke so obviously about such.

And also why I rarely get into these discussions on the internet.

Wait… there is someone at the do………

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:53 PM

This is how dumb I am, I thought a .38 was bigger than a .357

Night Owl on January 6, 2013 at 11:50 PM

The 10-oz. Coors 12-packs cost more than the 12-oz. Coors 12-packs in some stores around here, too. Life can be confusing :)

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:53 PM

Wait… there is someone at the do………

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 11:53 PM

DUUUDE, I’m just delivering your 3-topping pizza!!!!!

Damn – those were my nice boxers, too…..

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:55 PM

I would feel very uncomfortable trying to swing a long barrel indoors. Short barrel stays on when it’s in the abode.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:40 PM

My friend is the one with the shotgun. I have a Chinese SKS with a 30 round magazine. Had it for years and I still love shooting that thing. It’s pretty handy, but still a little long. We don’t have a crime problem so its a minor concern for me. I would probably use the Hi-power if there actually was a burglar.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 11:55 PM

never thought about that for ammo, only components. Honestly it’s been a long time since I’ve thought about this topic. Once you set up a load you don’t change around much. Time to rethink.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:52 PM

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Once you set up a load you don’t change around much. Time to rethink.

Fighton03 on January 6, 2013 at 11:52 PM

I just am very aware of the fact that each home-defense scenario is different, and as a reponsible gun owner, I have to think very carefully about where rounds may go after they pass the target, and what materials they may penetrate.

All the evidence once needs is the shootout at the Empire State Building a few months ago, and how all the bystanders were hit by police bullets.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:59 PM

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:55 PM

Do they still make their paper catalog….where the pages were thinner than most toilet paper?

Fighton03 on January 7, 2013 at 12:01 AM

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:26 PM

.
#4 is what I load for the first home defense rounds, but #2 might be better, without overpenetration in apartments, but I dunno. I have never done a sheet-metal comparison between #2 and #4. #6 is too light, IMO.

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:34 PM

.
Some thirty plus years ago, an older friend and I went for a walk in the wilds during late January. We weren’t hunting, but we took along our shotguns “on general principals”. We came across a “sheer-wall” about 50 feet high that had been cut to build the railroad (yeah, we were on the railroad).

From the top of this wall springs leaked water, which ran down and froze into some impressive stalagmites. My friend had his 12 ga with #4 high-brass shells, while I carried my 20 ga with #6 “medium-brass” shells. We started shooting at this “hanging ice”, and hell … you couldn’t even tell I was sending anyting against that ice. It could have been blanks, for all the damage I “wasn’t doing”. Meanwhile, my friend was knocking off icicles left and right. That was quite an education for me, at the time.

listens2glenn on January 7, 2013 at 12:01 AM

I’m boycotting cheaper than dirt, although I used to spend a lot with them up until a couple of weeks ago.

Midway is my primary recommendation for components and ammo. Great service and competitive prices, if not always the best prices.

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:02 AM

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:59 PM

totally agree and my choices were made more than a decade ago, based on availability compromise.

Fighton03 on January 7, 2013 at 12:04 AM

listens2glenn on January 7, 2013 at 12:01 AM

Heh :-)

Just the sight of y’all would have been enough to scare a lot of blue-state pansies to death.

I suppose the 20-ga. shells didn’t have as much pop to them? I have never owned one and so I defer to LegendHasIt or to you or sharrukin or Fighton03. Less powder?

cane_loader on January 7, 2013 at 12:07 AM

Midway is my primary recommendation for components and ammo. Great service and competitive prices, if not always the best prices.

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:02 AM

Customer service issue?

cane_loader on January 7, 2013 at 12:08 AM

Gasp!
I like Notre Dame.
Any of you Catholics here who don’t like them should say 3 Hail Marys and 5 Our Fathers.
Any any of you pagans out there who don’t like them should….I dunno….roll around and speak in tongues or whatever you do.

Go Irish!!!
Beat Bama’s ass.

justltl on January 7, 2013 at 12:09 AM

I suppose the 20-ga. shells didn’t have as much pop to them? I have never owned one and so I defer to LegendHasIt or to you or sharrukin or Fighton03. Less powder?

cane_loader on January 7, 2013 at 12:07 AM

I have only used the 12-ga. I have heard that they are best reserved for birds, but that just hearsay.

sharrukin on January 7, 2013 at 12:11 AM

Oops.
Wrong thread.
Nevermind.
Carry on.
BTW, some 38 Special revolvers only have 5 rounds, in case no one mentioned that.

justltl on January 7, 2013 at 12:12 AM

I have only used the 12-ga. I have heard that they are best reserved for birds, but that just hearsay.

sharrukin on January 7, 2013 at 12:11 AM

A slight-of-frame woman could better handle a 20-gauge, I’m sure. Could still do plenty damage with a short barrel and a good load, yeah.

cane_loader on January 7, 2013 at 12:13 AM

I suppose the 20-ga. shells didn’t have as much pop to them? I have never owned one and so I defer to LegendHasIt or to you or sharrukin or Fighton03. Less powder?

cane_loader on January 7, 2013 at 12:07 AM

.
Less “cartridge” all the way around.

Plus the loads I was using were much “lighter” than I figured them to be (before that experience).

I had #4 shot “magnums” at home for that 20 ga.
They probably would have done at least some damage to that ice.

listens2glenn on January 7, 2013 at 12:13 AM

No, Their customer service has always been great too… but they panicked and quit selling guns after the school shooting, caving to political and politically correctness pressure.

It only lasted a couple of days before they resumed…. after losing a LOT of good customers like me.. But I don’t forget such cowardice. I still haven’t forgiven S&W for working with Bill Clinton against their own industry, even though they have fairly decent ownership and management now.

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:14 AM

cane_loader on January 7, 2013 at 12:07 AM

never used a 20, just have a 16. A little tighter group, slightly less perceived recoil (IMO).

Fighton03 on January 7, 2013 at 12:14 AM

Gotta check out for a bit. Gotta take care of something!!

Carry on!

cane_loader on January 7, 2013 at 12:15 AM

Holy balls, man. This blog is being monitored by Homeland Security, FBI, the Secret Service . . . . . . . . . . . .

Homeland Security– They are having a hard time finding the border. Arizona has to keep pointing them in the right direction like South.

FBI Late to Benghazi, anybody hear any findings?

DOJ running guns for the Mexican Cartels

And the Secret Service is offering to drive the guns into Mexico so they can visit their Mexican hotties.

stormridercx4 on January 7, 2013 at 12:16 AM

Go Irish!!!
Beat Bama’s ass.

justltl on January 7, 2013 at 12:09 AM

true, wrong thread, but as my handle might clue you in, I’m a die hard Trojan. Still, Beat ‘Bama! Fight On ND.

Fighton03 on January 7, 2013 at 12:19 AM

Wikipedia can get you started on such knowledge, but is hardly an absolute authority on firearms related questions.

And that isn’t even beginning to talk about other .45 caliber handgun cartridges.

And Hot air isn’t really the best place to discuss such details.

LegendHasIt on January 6, 2013 at 9:45 PM

Hey, thanks for stating the obvious. The guy clearly knows very little about
weaponry. I’m not the one who mentioned anything over his knowledge level.
.22 cal is small and poke small hole. .45 big and go slower make bigger hole.

I think that’s about where he is and where learning begins. Thats where I directed him. I personally don’t shoot .45 much. Only friends’ firearms when the opportunity presents itself, preferring the .40 S&W and .357SIG.

ROCnPhilly on January 7, 2013 at 12:20 AM

The thing about 20s compared to 12s is the amount of shot that they both put out.
Kind of like comparing tangerines to oranges, I guess. ‘essentially’ (but with some exceptions) similarly purposed loads out of a 20 or a 12 will have the same muzzle velocity and penetration of a given shot size at a given distance…. But the increased weight /capacity of shot makes the 12 ga more ‘impactful’.

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:21 AM

stormridercx4 on January 7, 2013 at 12:16 AM

.
But that’s all because they’re focusing on us, the “real enemy”.

listens2glenn on January 7, 2013 at 12:31 AM

Here’s a very informative link that has a lot of good info about calibers and specific rounds for home defense/self defense.

Internet Armory.

Fighton03 on January 7, 2013 at 12:19 AM

Yep. I like the Trojans also.
Hopefully I put this in the right thread.

justltl on January 7, 2013 at 12:36 AM

preferring the .40 S&W and .357SIG.
ROCnPhilly on January 7, 2013 at 12:20 AM

Whatever floats yer boat.

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:37 AM

… … but they panicked and quit selling guns after the school shooting, caving to political and politically correctness pressure.

It only lasted a couple of days before they resumed…. after losing a LOT of good customers like me.. But I don’t forget such cowardice.

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:14 AM

I am with you on this. Add Kramer from MSNBCs Mad Money to the coward list for choking on his patriotism and grovelling before the fascists. Can these guys not see that they are merely postponing an honorless coward’s end?

ROCnPhilly on January 7, 2013 at 12:47 AM

Can these guys not see that they are merely postponing an honorless coward’s end?
ROCnPhilly on January 7, 2013 at 12:47 AM

I dunno if they can see it or not. The vast majority of our populace would trade their honor, any values they may have held and their mothers for just a few more days of making a few more bucks…

Oh, and another thing that CTD did that made people mad was to double, triple or more the prices of high capacity magazines during the same time they quit selling the things they fit in.

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:52 AM

Well, I have wasted too much time here.
Y’all have a good night and try to stay out of trouble.

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:53 AM

LegendHasIt on January 7, 2013 at 12:53 AM

G’nite.

ROCnPhilly on January 7, 2013 at 12:55 AM

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com

cane_loader on January 6, 2013 at 11:55 PM

They caved. And lost many a customer. There are better sites, besides, so no big loss.

riddick on January 7, 2013 at 12:57 AM

Liberals would rather she be raped and killed along with her kids than defend herself.

The Notorious G.O.P on January 7, 2013 at 2:11 AM

She’s a lousy shot. Sure, she hit him five times but he’s still alive.

Donnie Herman’s wife needs to spend more time at the range.

Dack Thrombosis on January 6, 2013 at 2:11 PM

Excellent. She can paint an “X” on your back. You’ll make a fine practice target, fat boy.

DevilsPrinciple on January 7, 2013 at 5:16 AM

So, what might have added to the bludgeoned to death statistic ended with a NRA confirmation.
Five rounds isn’t enough.
Had his adrenaline been spiked, or had he been on drugs, she and her children could have been in the soup.
What if there were two perpetrators instead of one?
A semi-auto or a shotgun would have finished the devil.

kregg on January 7, 2013 at 5:31 AM

A few more points:

I’m guessing that the reason she used a revolver instead of a shot gun or semi-auto is that the revolver is her carry gun and its what she knows best and trusts most.

As for the effectiveness of a shotgun in the house: A buddy and I recently experimented a bit with 12 and 20 gauge shotguns at close quarters to dispel what we thought were each others’ mythical beliefs.

What we found with buckshot (assorted 00 thru #4)

Standard length shotguns (18in and greater) have very little spread at indoor ranges. The wound cavity in the gel was the same diameter as the hole in the denim garment. He was right about that.

Shot makes for a more ragged wound and the wound channel is more consistant than a unrifled slug.

The 12 causes more damage and is much louder in our guns.

Home defense expanding rounds do the most damage and always looked like a lethal wound.

ROCnPhilly on January 7, 2013 at 7:05 AM

…continued…

When I say it looked like a lethal wound, I mean it looked ragged, like it couldn’t possibly be stitched back together, even if medical treatment was immediate.

So there’s a bit of anecdotal info for you to accept or dispute. YMMV, of course.

ROCnPhilly on January 7, 2013 at 7:29 AM

Ballistics Tests for most common calibers.

vinceautmorire on January 7, 2013 at 7:48 AM

The major things are:

- Get used to your holster
- Get used to drawing from your holster
- Get used to firing your preferred load
- Spend time at the range with the holster, drawing and firing your gun with the preferred load
- Practice, practice, practice

There is no such a thing as an ‘underpowered round’ as you are changing the threat situation to an attacker: any attacker expecting to get away unwounded now must face a real opportunity of getting wounded to getting killed. Lots of deaths from 22lr every year, so you can’t claim it is ‘underpowered’ and it was a turn of the 20th century self-defense round and good varmint getter, so it must be able to do something worthwhile.

If you think you will face someone hopped up on drugs and who won’t notice nor care about being wounded, then you need something with a bit more heft to take out vital body structures beyond mere organs that must bleed out… a hole taking out a shoulder blade does wonders for stopping that arm from being used… ditto a hip shot and staying upright… head shot is great if you can get it and practice for it in all conditions, center of mass is able to tell you just what you are facing if you can’t get the head shot.

Why do you want a gun with more than 6 rounds? Caliber, draw time, and if the attacker is zoned out on drugs and impervious to pain, you will need a number of rounds to get to a vital skeletal structure to impede the attack. 45ACP is great for that sort of stuff and was designed just for that situation in a M1911. Feels good in the hand, too.

Shotgun in 12ga is a definite plus for HD: get a magazine tube extension for it or get one of the modern AK variant platforms with magazine. I’m surrounded by brick and masonry and wouldn’t want to shoot more than 4 shot unless its slugs for taking out individuals. The round in the chamber is inert for safety, the next one up is less-than-lethal… then things scale up through some bird shot and then 4 shot, with the rest slugs. If you can work on dealing with those shorty-shells, you can get a pretty fair number of rounds in after the first one. For a lighter framed individual the Mossberg 410HD has a spreader choke so you can make a nice linear pattern with shot and its lightweight enough and with low enough recoil so that even grandma with arthritis can use it.

In HD or self-defense you cannot use the military maxim of rifle, pistol, knife. There are some nice carbine arrangements for 223, but that isn’t a rifle, just a pistol firing 223… but if you already have a long-gun for it, then its a natural fit to share ammo. For self-defense you might try pistol, BUG pistol and knife. For HD shotgun, pistol, BUG pistol or knife…although for the local drunk I just keep the BUG handy since it requires decent eye-hand coordination because it is small and the guy knows not to get violent but you can never be too sure. A knife is just a handy tool useful for opening boxes, stripping bark, taking insulation off of wires… really, you should have one with you at all times just as a handy tool.

ajacksonian on January 7, 2013 at 8:00 AM

Holy balls, man. This blog is being monitored by Homeland Security, FBI, the Secret Service . . . . . . . . . . . .

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:44 PM

But that’s all because they’re focusing on us, the “real enemy”.

listens2glenn on January 7, 2013 at 12:31 AM

LOL

Dante on January 7, 2013 at 8:55 AM

She only missed once hit him in the head, neck and three body shots through the liver, lung and stomach. But he kept on going had he had a gun she would be dead now and her daughters because she only had six rounds.

Steveangell on January 6, 2013 at 2:10 PM

Many .38 revolvers only hold five cartridges. Speed loaders exist as well, you know.

Dante on January 7, 2013 at 8:58 AM

True enough. Some weaker rounds do more damage because they impart more of their energy in the target, or because of the behavior of the round after it enters the body.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 11:12 PM
What about the .17 round. I’ve seen some really nasty x-rays of squirrels and the internal damage was extensive. I understand they have good penetration even against some types of body armor. I have additional concerns of damage to ears from higher caliber not to mention of the possibility of penetration through walls and causing inadvertent injury.

Another possibility may be using alternating rounds of .22 mag snake shot and maybe hollow point. Again, not as loud and less risk for wall penetration.

My concerns would be that I can incapacitate or kill the intruder without incapacitating myself with noise and flash blindness.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 7, 2013 at 9:02 AM

oops, click strike rather than quote in the last post.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 7, 2013 at 9:03 AM

if she wants to maintain her privacy and not turn this into some sort of circus side show, the media should respect her wishes.

Somehow I doubt that the press will be beating down their door to hear her story.

Akzed on January 7, 2013 at 9:28 AM

A high cap mag in a semi auto would have helped if there had been 2 perps, but whatever gun, or round she was shooting, did just fine and got the job done right. The NRA magazine reports stories just like this one every month. Self protection works.

Kissmygrits on January 7, 2013 at 9:45 AM

Anyone wondering why CNN chose not to cover this story?

jediwebdude on January 7, 2013 at 9:51 AM

Mom shoots intruder, saves kids

An inconvenient truth.

labrat on January 7, 2013 at 10:09 AM

A .38+P load in a .357, with a 158 grain hollow point bullet. An ATF agent told me he once shot a guy in the hip with one and there were fragments in his knee and brain. I was sold!

This was before I ever heard of .40, back in the 80′s, and his service weapon was a .357.

It’s more punch than a .38, and when fired in a .357 (you can’t use a .38 with them) there’s less kick than a regular .357 load due to the gun’s weight and the reduced charge.

Not everyone’s heard of them.

Akzed on January 7, 2013 at 10:31 AM

Momma Grizzly!

darlus on January 7, 2013 at 10:43 AM

I bet they go to buy a semi-automatic handgun to replace this revolver.

She emptied the gun with all but one bullet hitting him and she still felt he was a threat. And to an extent he was, he was able to get out of the house and into his car.

They’ll want something with more stopping power and higher capacity in case she needs to defend herself again.

ButterflyDragon on January 7, 2013 at 11:08 AM

They’ll want something with more stopping power and higher capacity in case she needs to defend herself again.

ButterflyDragon on January 7, 2013 at 11:08 AM

Or a trap door in front of that crawl space… covering a shark tank ;)

cane_loader on January 7, 2013 at 11:14 AM

“Everyone called Wayne LaPierre crazy when he said that the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun. Or sometimes, a good lady with a gun. Food for thought.”

Hey Buzz, not everyone called Wayne LaPierre crazy! Far from it I would guess. You have taken that broad brush stroke style, so often used by the lamestream media when they are too lazy and ill-informed to fact check! Of course, (brush stroke coming) the vast majority of them have a decidedly lefty agenda!

tomshup on January 7, 2013 at 11:16 AM

Holy balls, man. This blog is being monitored by Homeland Security, FBI, the Secret Service . . . . . . . . . . . .

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 11:44 PM

.

But that’s all because they’re focusing on us, the “real enemy”.

listens2glenn on January 7, 2013 at 12:31 AM

.
LOL

Dante on January 7, 2013 at 8:55 AM

.
Yep, we don’t disagree on everything.

Who’d of thunk it?

listens2glenn on January 7, 2013 at 11:42 AM

How was she able to defend herself with a mere revolver?
 
Pablo Honey on January 6, 2013 at 2:37 PM

 
You know what? Screw you for even equivocating what type of handgun she defended herself with. Just screw you.
 
hawkdriver on January 6, 2013 at 9:46 PM

 
You claim to be pro-choice, right Pablo?
 

The person who is carrying the pregnancy is also an individual with rights less you forget. That is a big portion of the pro-choice libertarian position.
 
Pablo Honey on June 15, 2011 at 4:25 PM

 
Funny, that.

rogerb on January 7, 2013 at 11:51 AM

Just for kicks I provided a link on the facebook page “Moms Against Guns” with the comment “Thank goodness THIS mom had a gun!” LOL… It’s fun to watch the liberals twist in the wind!

eyesights on January 7, 2013 at 11:53 AM

She had the right gun, shot the person…I think if you spoke to most anyone who has been in the position she was in, adrenalin pumping, it’s hard to hit any target. Amazing she missed only once.

The guy could have been drugged up, those guys, nothing but taking off their head would stop them…the fact is, she thought through what to do, and executed it perfectly…she and her kids are safe, and the criminal was caught, and almost dead.

I haven known police officers who in a gun exchange, both missed their targets, it’s just an adrenalin thing, and until you have done it a few times (like in battle) it’s not as easy as it is shown on TV.

right2bright on January 7, 2013 at 12:06 PM

The same weekend this mother defended her children by shooting the intruder, this woman also had a home invader. However, this instance, the victim hid, called 911 and was eventually shot by the invader.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/south-fulton-woman-shot-during-home-invasion/nTmkM/

Ask your Liberal Friends, if they had to choose, which woman would they rather be?

GadsdenRattlers on January 7, 2013 at 12:26 PM

What about the .17 round.

I honestly don’t know anything about them.

I have additional concerns of damage to ears from higher caliber not to mention of the possibility of penetration through walls and causing inadvertent injury.

My concerns would be that I can incapacitate or kill the intruder without incapacitating myself with noise and flash blindness.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 7, 2013 at 9:02 AM

I wouldn’t worry about flash blindness or noise. Worry about getting out and staying alive. It isn’t likely to last very long and will usually be over in seconds, or minutes (the exciting part). If your ears are ringing afterwards that’s a sign that you are still breathing, and remember to wear ear protection at the range.

The likelihood of your bullets penetrating a wall and killing a neighbor on the one occasion that you may be called on to defend yourself is so remote that I wouldn’t worry about it either. Obviously don’t use rifle ammunition in an apartment unless you don’t have another choice, but your survival and your families survival is the first priority.

sharrukin on January 7, 2013 at 2:33 PM

The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved.

May I recommend hollow point ammo next time?

Dollayo on January 7, 2013 at 5:41 PM

a .38 revolver,” Chapman told Channel 2’s Kerry Kavanaugh.

The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved.

I think I’d better trade in my 9mm for a .45. Of course, the Mossberg is always ready too…

peski on January 7, 2013 at 5:55 PM

May I recommend hollow point ammo next time?

Dollayo on January 7, 2013 at 5:41 PM

Chapman said Slater has four exit wounds.

No kidding.

peski on January 7, 2013 at 5:56 PM

I’ve shot .45 acp and 12 gauge without glasses and hearing protection. its a bit startling but nothing incapacitating. in a self defense situation you probably wouldn’t even notice it.

it is a bit ringy afterwards.

tom daschle concerned on January 7, 2013 at 6:15 PM

The right ammo and the owner’s confidence will make a .380 the equal of a .357.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:22 PM

Not on this planet.

Solaratov on January 7, 2013 at 9:15 PM

No one should be limited to five rounds. That is the lesson.

Bmore on January 8, 2013 at 10:00 AM

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