Mom shoots intruder, saves kids

posted at 2:01 pm on January 6, 2013 by Jazz Shaw

How many times during the recent gun grabbing debate have you heard these arguments?

Self defense is a bogus argument. Having a gun in your home, you’re more likely to shoot yourself or your spouse than to ever fend off a bad guy. Only trained law enforcement professionals can safely use weapons like that.

May I introduce you to Donnie Herman’s wife

The woman was working in an upstairs office when she spotted a strange man outside a window, according to Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman. He said she took her 9-year-old twins to a crawlspace before the man broke in using a crowbar.

But the man eventually found the family.

“The perpetrator opens that door. Of course, at that time he’s staring at her, her two children and a .38 revolver,” Chapman told Channel 2’s Kerry Kavanaugh.

The woman then shot him five times, but he survived, Chapman said. He said the woman ran out of bullets but threatened to shoot the intruder if he moved.

The intruder, 32-year-old Atlanta resident Paul Slate, had been out of jail for all of four months or so, one of six arrests since 2008. He fled the house but crashed his car a short distance away and collapsed where he was found on the ground by police. So how is old Paul doing now?

Chapman said they found him on the ground saying, “Help me. I’m close to dying.” Slater was taken to Gwinnett Medical Center for treatment. Chapman said Slater was shot in the face and neck…

Channel 2’s Amy Napier Viteri learned from Chapman late Friday night that slater has been placed on a ventilator and suffers from punctured lungs, a punctured liver and a punctured stomach.

He said if Slater survives the night, doctors will try to operate in the morning to repair the damage.

Chapman said Slater has four exit wounds.

The woman’s husband was short and succinct on the subject.

“My wife is a hero. She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do as responsible, prepared gun owner,” Donnie Herman said.

He said he’s thankful for his family’s safety.

“Her life is saved, and her kids’ life is saved, and that’s all I’d like to say,” Herman said.

I don’t have a lot to add to this story beyond highlighting it and opening it up for your consideration and discussion. But I would add one note of caution. Thus far the woman in question doesn’t seem to be talking to the press and that’s her right. Regardless of her success in defending her family, Donnie Herman’s wife has undoubtedly been through a traumatic experience and if she wants to maintain her privacy and not turn this into some sort of circus side show, the media should respect her wishes.

But she can still serve as a useful example as we consider any future Second Amendment questions. Everyone called Wayne LaPierre crazy when he said that the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun. Or sometimes, a good lady with a gun. Food for thought.


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Nope, power-wise its .380, 9mm,.38, .38+/and P, .357.

My preference is the .357, but the Desert Eagle is too big and the Python doesn’t wear right in a concealed holster. I’ll carry the 9mm when the clothes will cover it and the .380 other times.

The right ammo and the owner’s confidence will make a .380 the equal of a .357.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:22 PM

I’ve settled on the 9. Personal preference, I guess?

Midas on January 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM

…he’s out of jail… why?

Midas on January 6, 2013 at 4:24 PM

Its the liberal way. Rehabilitation and all that.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM

As he dialed 911, his 37-year-old spouse, who works from home, collected the children and hid with them in a crawlspace adjoining her office. By that time, the intruder had forced his way into the three-story residence on Henderson Ridge Drive with a crowbar, authorities said. He allegedly rummaged through the home, eventually working his way up to the attic office.

Once again, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM

And where the hell are the trolls?

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM

Next up: If the intruder is black and the woman is white, Sharpton, Jackson and Obama will call this a clear-ct case of racism.

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 3:50 PM

Read the history of the Bolshevik Revolution they had laws then that you couldn’t shoot anybody until they shot you. We’re saying the same kind of thing here; whimsical government and laws favorable to criminals.

AZfederalist on January 6, 2013 at 4:26 PM

I have a .38, I thought it would do more damage than that.

Night Owl on January 6, 2013 at 3:07 PM

Depends on the ammo. 38 worked for years for law enforcement. Good hollow points should be effective. Guessing she was using something different.

AZfederalist on January 6, 2013 at 3:14 PM

Wish people would not denigrate a 22 because 45 sounds bigger. If loaded with LR High Velocity rounds a 22 is very deadly. Years ago a crazy man killed seven in a beauty salon in Mesa Arizona. He shot each once or twice, most only once, only one survivor.

Four of the bullets went through the body leaving exit wounds. So wrong ammunition for protection. You need the bullet to fragment and do more damage to really stop someone.

But her shooting skills were good. In that situation you do not stay cool and calm. You do not aim as well as you think you would. Article not clear whether gun had 5 or 6 rounds but is clear that he was hit five times.

Steveangell on January 6, 2013 at 4:27 PM

So, at least 7 arrests in the last 4 years, and he’s out of jail… why?

Midas on January 6, 2013 at 4:24 PM

Don’t you believe in forgiveness and redemption? /

These sorts of stories are so predictable because its always the same old thing.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 4:27 PM

What’s your problem with horses? I think kicking them is a bit extreme. Use a step ladder instead. It doesn’t need to be feed or cleaned up after and you will be liked by PETA.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 4:22 PM

Okay, you got me there. LOL

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:28 PM

definitely not

WryTrvllr on January 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM

If I felt like it, I would go dig out my Hornady book to provide evidence. Its not that big of a deal though.

I’ve settled on the 9. Personal preference, I guess?

Midas on January 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM

Exactly. Its what works for you.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:29 PM

Article not clear whether gun had 5 or 6 rounds but is clear that he was hit five times.

Steveangell on January 6, 2013 at 4:27 PM

She had six rounds and hit with five. Under those circumstances that’s VERY GOOD shooting.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 4:29 PM

That .38 is the same diameter as your 9mm, and more powerful.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:14 PM

If you mean the .38 Special, I think its a weaker round than the 9mm.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 4:30 PM

If I felt like it, I would go dig out my Hornady book to provide evidence. Its not that big of a deal though

Please do Cozmo. 380 200ftlbs at muzzle. 38 spl same. 38+p 240 ftlbs. 9mm 330.

WryTrvllr on January 6, 2013 at 4:31 PM

Oh, and as a Texan, this one is meaningful, too.

Midas on January 6, 2013 at 4:07 PM

My avatar as a commenter at HuffPo is the “Come and Take It” flag, but with an AR in place of the cannon.

I’m reeeeal popular over there. It really pushes their buttons.

juliesa on January 6, 2013 at 4:32 PM

Donnie Herman’s wife needs to spend more time at the range.

Dack Thrombosis on January 6, 2013 at 2:11 PM

The local police should invite her down to their range and let her shoot off a few hundred rounds.

and I am very surprised that he was hit 5 times in the neck/face and he’s not dead

ted c on January 6, 2013 at 2:19 PM

Unfortunately, shooting someone isn’t as much of a sure stop as some people think. Especially with a .38. If she’d grouped them all just a little to the left of his sternum, maybe.

Good sarc. doesn’t need tags.

Schadenfreude on January 6, 2013 at 2:31 PM

Sadly, given the intellectual level of a few people about this place, that just ain’t true. *sigh*

Could be a bamacare cost saving initiative.

Danno on January 6, 2013 at 2:44 PM

Oooh. How many cents on the dollar would it be if Obamacare issued a certain number of rounds annually? Can we get a CBO ruling on that? Hey, and it could be part of the mandate! “Mrs. Johnson, trust me, you’ll feel a lot better after you go down to Joe’s Gun Rack and get your prescription.”

GWB on January 6, 2013 at 4:33 PM

Channel 2’s Amy Napier Viteri learned from Chapman late Friday night that slater has been placed on a ventilator and suffers from punctured lungs, a punctured liver and a punctured stomach.

A pity that tax money will be paying for all of that.

Count to 10 on January 6, 2013 at 4:33 PM

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 3:56 PM

I cut down a 6-8 inch diameter tree with a .357 Mag. Didn’t take too many shots either.

davidk on January 6, 2013 at 4:33 PM

I wish she’d shot his balls off too.

Sounds like a very intense fast-moving situation. I give her mad props for her end bluff. That takes serious presence of mind under such circumstances.

WhatSlushfund on January 6, 2013 at 4:34 PM

Maybe if she had John Lennon’s Imagine playing on her stereo,
And maybe if she had offered the perp a beer instead of bullets,
and maybe if she paid her fair share in taxes,
and maybe if she spoke in street talk like Joe Y’all Biden,
and maybe if she apologized for slavery,
and and and….
SHOOT TO KILL!
Then pray for his soul.

racquetballer on January 6, 2013 at 4:34 PM

Another point.

If this had been a liberal gun-fearing household, it would most likely be a ” family murdered by unknown assailant, police investigating ” story.

The husband could then feel good about all the fine police work that went into catching the career criminal and publicly forgive him. Maybe he could take to the talk show circuit to discuss the violent evils of Christian influence on society.

Alas, it was not to be…

/s

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 4:34 PM

Read the history of the Bolshevik Revolution they had laws then that you couldn’t shoot anybody until they shot you. We’re saying the same kind of thing here; whimsical government and laws favorable to criminals.

AZfederalist on January 6, 2013 at 4:26 PM

But not all criminals are equal, either. A white attacker doesn’t count if the victim is white. But if the victim is black or something other, he’s a perv.

If a black man rapes a white woman, we can’t count that. It’s just a simple rape and, because so many blacks are in prison already, we really can’t blame him.

The way the FBI tabulates things, a Hispanic committing a crime is counted as white. But if a Hispanic is a crime victim, he/she is counted as a Hispanic.

Liberals really need to quit worrying about guns and start limiting the purchase of stout rope.

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:35 PM

I cut down a 6-8 inch diameter tree with a .357 Mag. Didn’t take too many shots either.

davidk on January 6, 2013 at 4:33 PM

Such a waste of ammo.

Couldn’t you find a liberal instead?

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:36 PM

I think I’ll throw out some training stuff:

If you want to go to schools, there are a ton out there – worthwhile for most people civilian or otherwise.

A couple of the big names, in no particular order.

http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=7
http://www.gunsite.com/main/course-calendars/2013-course-schedule/
http://www.frontsight.com/Courses.asp

There is also a wealth of literature (not BS on the internet) on this subject.

Additionally, there may well be good instructors in your locale who can provide training in the use of firearms for personal protection. Do scrutinize their resumes though. If they claim to be a Navy SEaL, or other SF, drop Don Shipley a line to verify. ;-)

CorporatePiggy on January 6, 2013 at 4:37 PM

Was the intruder armed?

exdeadhead on January 6, 2013 at 2:07 PM

Yes, two arms with one of them holding a crowbar. I suppose even without arms he could have kicked her children to death so still a threat. This is just such a happy story…I hope he doesn’t survive.

trs on January 6, 2013 at 4:38 PM

I’ve settled on the 9. Personal preference, I guess?

Midas on January 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM

I have a Taurus Judge for CC. First chamber has a .410 shot shell. The others .45 hollows.

“If the right one don’t get you, the left one will.”

davidk on January 6, 2013 at 4:38 PM

John Hinckley jr used 6 shots from a .22 revolver to wound four men, including two who were heavily armed. All four were immediately incapacitated, and two almost died.

It’s not ideal for self-defense but it’s infinitely better than nothing.

juliesa on January 6, 2013 at 4:41 PM

Such a waste of ammo.

Couldn’t you find a liberal instead?

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:36 PM

That would also be a waste of good ammo.
Have you seen the movie Taken? Remember the bad guy that Liam was lighting up?
Ok, it’s a waste of electricity but oh the fun!

racquetballer on January 6, 2013 at 4:41 PM

Before I lost them in a tragic boating accident I owned three pistols, a 9mm and two 32′s. They had one thing in common. My wife, a woman of average size and I assume strength, was unable to pull the slide back on any of them.

For you ladies, before you buy a semi-auto be sure you can operate it. A revolver may be a better choice.

countrybumpkin on January 6, 2013 at 4:42 PM

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. -Benjamin Franklin

TxAnn56 on January 6, 2013 at 4:43 PM

countrybumpkin on January 6, 2013 at 4:42 PM

WTH? You scared she was going to shoot you with them?

astonerii on January 6, 2013 at 4:44 PM

Please do Cozmo. 380 200ftlbs at muzzle. 38 spl same. 38+p 240 ftlbs. 9mm 330.

WryTrvllr on January 6, 2013 at 4:31 PM

Dude, there are many factors you choose to leave out.

Bullet weight
Powder charge
Barrel length
Quality of the fire arm

Put the empty brass side by side and see what they have the potential to hold. Naturally, it also depends on the firearm you are putting those rounds in.

As for not caring, it isn’t important. All those rounds will do the job. The reason I like the .357 is that it will do the job if an engine block is in the way.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:45 PM

That would also be a waste of good ammo.
Have you seen the movie Taken? Remember the bad guy that Liam was lighting up?
Ok, it’s a waste of electricity but oh the fun!

racquetballer on January 6, 2013 at 4:41 PM

Fire attracts to much attention.

To properly dispose of a liberal is to make the finish quick, clean, and quiet. Than take the carcass to the woods so bears can eat.

That way, the liberal gets to not only take care of the environment, but be a part of it.

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:45 PM

Another point.

If this had been a liberal gun-fearing household, it would most likely be a ” family murdered by unknown assailant, police investigating ” story.

The husband could then feel good about all the fine police work that went into catching the career criminal and publicly forgive him. Maybe he could take to the talk show circuit to discuss the violent evils of Christian influence on society.

Alas, it was not to be…

BINGO!!!

bflat879 on January 6, 2013 at 4:45 PM

Liberal version of gun control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

TxAnn56 on January 6, 2013 at 4:48 PM

Liberal version of gun control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

TxAnn56 on January 6, 2013 at 4:48 PM

Here’s another liberal version of gun control: “Just because I committed treason doesn’t mean I serve to be shot!”

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:53 PM

.38 Smith & Wesson Special

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy

110 gr (7 g) JHP 980 ft/s (300 m/s) 235 ft·lbf (319 J)
130 gr (8 g) FMJ 810 ft/s (250 m/s) 189 ft·lbf (256 J)
148 gr (10 g) LWC 690 ft/s (210 m/s) 156 ft·lbf (212 J)
158 gr (10 g) LRN 770 ft/s (230 m/s) 208 ft·lbf (282 J)
200 gr (13 g) LRN 679 ft/s (207 m/s) 204 ft·lbf (277 J)

Test barrel length: 4 in (vented)

9×19mm Parabellum

Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy

7.45 g (115 gr) FMJ 390 m/s (1,300 ft/s) 570 J (420 ft·lbf)
8.04 g (124 gr) FMJ 360 m/s (1,200 ft/s) 518 J (382 ft·lbf)
7.50 g (116 gr) JHP 377 m/s (1,240 ft/s) 533 J (393 ft·lbf)
7.45 g (115 gr) JHP +P 411 m/s (1,350 ft/s) 632 J (466 ft·lbf)
7.45 g (115 gr) JHP +P+ 435 m/s (1,430 ft/s) 704 J (519 ft·lbf)

Test barrel length: Tests 1,2&3: 150mm / Tests 4&5: 118mm.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 4:53 PM

This entire scenario sounds EXTREMLY unlikely, and I’m interested in finding out what really happened here.

Rainsford on January 6, 2013 at 4:05 PM

My brother was an EMT for over thirty years and then a Deputy corner. My BiL, a IL State Police CSI and is now a deputy coroner.

This is not that unlikely.

davidk on January 6, 2013 at 4:53 PM

They are committing a FELONY. It does not matter. Even in Libtard-NY!

During the commission of _ANY_ Felony offense, deadly force is justified -AND- is an affirmative defense to prosecution for using deadly force BECAUSE of the Felony offense being committed.

Was the intruder armed?

exdeadhead on January 6, 2013 at 2:07 PM

TX-96 on January 6, 2013 at 4:54 PM

Far as liberals rate with me (using my best John Wayne voice), “Hangin’s too good for ya!”

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:56 PM

@nbcbayarea tweeted:
nbcbayarea
#BREAKING SF Bayview District: Man throws liquid on woman and then sets her on fire. SFPD investigating. She was taken to the hospital.

Good thing she didn’t shoot him.

davidk on January 6, 2013 at 4:59 PM

TX-96 on January 6, 2013 at 4:54 PM

Even in NY it is justifiable homicide if I exterminate a rapist if I catch him in the act.

Liberals, though–including and especially the trolls here–will scream, “You didn’t give him a chance to surrender!”

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:59 PM

Far as liberals rate with me (using my best John Wayne voice), “Hangin’s too good for ya!”

Liam on January 6, 2013 at 4:56 PM

I like the way you think pilgrim.

TxAnn56 on January 6, 2013 at 5:00 PM

She coulda waited for the local police, state police, FBI, CIA, ATF, Obama ta show up first. Only Big Government knows what’s best for us sheep. The 911 operator might have left her a choice to make.

racquetballer on January 6, 2013 at 5:03 PM

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 4:53 PM

What is that? Is it a good thing? *THIS is why I’m taking the shooter’s course. I’m pretty ignorant about my own weapon.*

annoyinglittletwerp on January 6, 2013 at 5:07 PM

Intruder was armed with an over-developed sense of entitlement.

-And a crowbar.

TimBuk3 on January 6, 2013 at 5:08 PM

Please do Cozmo. 380 200ftlbs at muzzle. 38 spl same. 38+p 240 ftlbs. 9mm 330.

WryTrvllr on January 6, 2013 at 4:31 PM

.
Dude, there are many factors you choose to leave out.

Bullet weight
Powder charge
Barrel length
Quality of the fire arm

Put the empty brass side by side and see what they have the potential to hold. Naturally, it also depends on the firearm you are putting those rounds in.

As for not caring, it isn’t important. All those rounds will do the job. The reason I like the .357 is that it will do the job if an engine block is in the way.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:45 PM

.
.
That’s what us conservatives can argue about (with each other), when there’s no trolls around; BALLISTICS !

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 5:09 PM

They are committing a FELONY. It does not matter. Even in Libtard-NY!

During the commission of _ANY_ Felony offense, deadly force is justified -AND- is an affirmative defense to prosecution for using deadly force BECAUSE of the Felony offense being committed.

TX-96 on January 6, 2013 at 4:54 PM

I think I’ll throw out some training stuff:

If you want to go to schools, there are a ton out there – worthwhile for most people civilian or otherwise.

A couple of the big names, in no particular order.

http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=7
http://www.gunsite.com/main/course-calendars/2013-course-schedule/
http://www.frontsight.com/Courses.asp

There is also a wealth of literature (not BS on the internet) on this subject.

Additionally, there may well be good instructors in your locale who can provide training in the use of firearms for personal protection. Do scrutinize their resumes though. If they claim to be a Navy SEaL, or other SF, drop Don Shipley a line to verify. ;-)

CorporatePiggy on January 6, 2013 at 4:37 PM

Many of the 20 or so states that have added Castle Doctrine and Shall Issue CCW over the last decade have also added Civil Immunity for plugging a bad guy, to protect against just such abuse.

rayra on January 6, 2013 at 3:44 PM

.
Getting an education here. Thanks.
Any centralized credible links for individual state laws (Castle Doctrine, Concealed Carry, justifiable shooting, etc)?

NightmareOnKStreet on January 6, 2013 at 5:10 PM

Well, live or die, the intruder now knows the truth:

In the real life game of “Rock, Paper, Scissors”, .38 Featherweight beats crowbar.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 5:10 PM

Can’t wait for the bad guy to file suit for his injuries.
He’ll probably claim the she needs to compensate him for loss of income while he’s incarcerated.

Another Drew on January 6, 2013 at 5:11 PM

What an evil, evil woman. Someone should publish her address.

/sarc

Glenn Jericho on January 6, 2013 at 5:12 PM

I can honestly say that when I have gotten angry I have never though about getting a gun. I have always followed my gun safety training nor do I assault people when angry or otherwise. I walk away. And when I carry, I am even more respectful of my potential to do harm.

I do not have anything against instant background checks when you purchase a firearm except that Mr. Holder illegally held the information illegally beyond the requirements of the law during the Clinton administration and people with mental illness problems, as with the killer of those in the theater in Colorado, are not reported. The VA is trying to trick veterans to show they would go for a firearm and placing them on the FBI list to prevent them from purchasing firearms. I guess reporting those with mental illnesses that could lead to violent is an invasion of privacy, but registering weapons is not! Holder was never prosecuted nor were the officials in DE that did the same thing. The only allowed exception is non federal licensed sales which is possible at gun shows. However it is a lie by omission when anti-gun people say here is a gun show loophole thus casing a wide net of negativity over gun shows. Gun shows really should not allow private sales without the instant check.

VP Biden has hinted at Obama issuing an Executive Order, which has the force of law even when unconstitutional, if Feinstein’s bill fails to pass and requiring a background check when purchasing a firearm. That is what the instant check is supposed to do. What Biden wants is backdoor registration as it is in MD for handguns and “assault” rifles.

This is a snippet out of what I wrote to Senator Feinstein: The Revolutionary War began when British subjects, soon to be called Americans, repelled the British Army’s attempt to confiscate arms. This is a streak of defiance that has permeated American culture throughout its history. So why should any American citizen believe that if you and other elected officials are willing to violate a basic American right to bear arms, that existed even before we were a nation, that we should trust said officials to safeguard any of our constitutional rights.

amr on January 6, 2013 at 5:13 PM

Can’t wait for the bad guy to file suit for his injuries.
He’ll probably claim the she needs to compensate him for loss of income while he’s incarcerated.
Another Drew on January 6, 2013 at 5:11 PM

Hence why anyone who puts me in a position where I need to shoot them will be dead/certain to die by the time they hit the ground.

astonerii on January 6, 2013 at 5:13 PM

If Barrack had a son, he would’ve looked just like Mr Slater.

racquetballer on January 6, 2013 at 5:14 PM

Wish people would not denigrate a 22 because 45 sounds bigger.
Steveangell on January 6, 2013 at 4:27 PM

I agree. I have three .22 pistols. An H&R Sportsman single action revolver which is number 875 of 1000 built for a competition in 1939. A Ruger Single Six that has the ability to have the cylinder changed out for a .22 mag and a Beretta Neos which is semi-auto. I would hate to be hit with any of them at close range, especially the .22 mag rounds. The Neos will put 10 rounds downrange as fast as I can pull the trigger and I can drop and load another magazine pretty quick. I often take the H&R with me when walking the dogs at night to protect against coyotes and wild dogs of which there quite a few in my area.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 5:16 PM

Any centralized credible links for individual state laws (Castle Doctrine, Concealed Carry, justifiable shooting, etc)?

NightmareOnKStreet on January 6, 2013 at 5:10 PM

As I live in PA, I would start here:
http://www.pafoa.org/law

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 5:16 PM

I’ve found that a Derringer chambered in .338 Lapua has more than enough stopping power.

Bishop on January 6, 2013 at 5:19 PM

Anyone else here ever watch the Professional Russian (FPSRussia), on youtube?

listens2glenn on January 6, 2013 at 5:19 PM

I often take the H&R with me when walking the dogs at night to protect against coyotes and wild dogs of which there quite a few in my area.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 5:16 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/27/AR2010042705323.html

davidk on January 6, 2013 at 5:22 PM

What is that? Is it a good thing? *THIS is why I’m taking the shooter’s course. I’m pretty ignorant about my own weapon.*

annoyinglittletwerp on January 6, 2013 at 5:07 PM

Sorry. Its just a measurement of the bullet velocity and energy of the two rounds. The 9mm (9×19mm Parabellum). The 9mm is the diameter and the ×19 is the length of the case. .38 is also the diameter but in inches.

7.45 g (115 gr) = weight of the bullet

FMJ = Full Metal Jacket

390 m/s (1,300 ft/s) = velocity of the bullet (meters per second OR feet per second)

570 J (420 ft·lbf) = energy of the bullet J=Joules ft·lbf=foot pounds

Muzzle energy is probably the best indication of how powerful the bullet is, but remember that it depends on the weight of the gun it is fired from. That weight helps to control how much recoil you feel when its fired. A lighter gun will mean less control, if its too much for your size and body weight.

I have fired 9mm handguns that were like a snake in my hand because of this despite, the 9mm being a fairly controllable cartridge. I have a Browning Hi-power 9mm that is easily controllable because its the right sized round and weapon. You don’t want a very powerful cartridge in a small weapon unless you are strong enough to compensate for it.

That is why a .22 (weak round) can often be very deadly because its easily controlled and in a very frightening situation where your life, or those you love is in danger your ability to think and act is badly degraded. The .22 won’t do much but at least you can hit someone with it. I would recommend something much better than that, but it illustrates the problem.

That’s why training matters so much because it becomes an automatic reflex which comes in handy when the SHTF.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 5:24 PM

I often take the H&R with me when walking the dogs at night to protect against coyotes and wild dogs of which there quite a few in my area.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 5:16 PM

I hope you never need to put your .22s to test in this type of live-fire situation. The smaller the projectile, the more crucial the placement. Always. Even with military 3400fps .223 rounds. My beagles would prefer I carry a .357, .40, or .45.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 5:28 PM

Another point.

If this had been a liberal gun-fearing household, it would most likely be a ” family murdered by unknown assailant, police investigating ” story.

Same night,50 miles away:

Melissa Burke looked out her window after two hooded males rang her doorbell just after midnight Friday.

Burke said she turned on her alarm and went back to bed. Later she heard the doorbell ring again, then heard the door chime and realized the burglars were inside.

Detectives said Burke ran and hid.

“But the perpetrators, multiple, located her and shot her,” Detective Melissa Parker with the Fulton County Police Department said.

Burke’s uncle can’t understand why they had to shoot her.

link

She’s hospitalized but should be ok.

Quisp on January 6, 2013 at 5:29 PM

We all knew it was only a matter of time before the mass shooting supporting pro gun conservatives came out of the woodwork.

The shootings are now spreading from the minority neighborhoods into the gated Caucasian neighborhoods folks. Its too bad we had to wait for this event to generate a conversation about the unnecessary killings of our children. Its even worse to see the ” I dont give a damn about some kids getting shot as long as it aint my kid” pro gun movement looking to return back to status quo.

HotAirLib on January 5, 2013 at 9:28 AM

Wow! Who knew that the University of Texas was in the middle of a ghetto when Charles Whitman took out 14 people, an unborn child, and injured 32 with a cache that included a M-1 carbine, a Remington 700 6mm bolt-action hunting rifle, a .35 calibre pump rifle, a .30 calibre carbine, a 9mm Luger pistol, a 12 gauge semi-automatic sawed-off shotgun, a Galesi-Brescia .25-calibre pistol, a Smith & Wesson M19, a .357 Magnum revolver, and over 700 rounds of ammunition in 1966?

I mean, you just learn something new every single day. /

Resist We Much on January 6, 2013 at 5:30 PM

The poor guy, another victim of a handgun.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 2:06 PM

What do you bet it ends up skewing the stats on somebody’s list that way?

This guy has a record as long as my arm, and has probably accepted lots of plea deals – our courts are so overbooked, the judges are willing to accept lesser pleas just to clear their calendars. In the end, the public pays the price for their decision. Glad mom could come thru for her family.

Hill60 on January 6, 2013 at 5:31 PM

The smaller the projectile, the more crucial the placement. Always. Even with military 3400fps .223 rounds. My beagles would prefer I carry a .357, .40, or .45.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 5:28 PM

True, but a smaller round is more controllable so you can put it on target more reliably. There is always a trade-off with any weapon you choose.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 5:31 PM

If Barrack had a son, he would’ve looked just like Mr Slater.

racquetballer on January 6, 2013 at 5:14 PM

Au contraire!

Picture of the Day: If Obama Had A Son, He Would Not Look Like Trayvon or Mr Slater

M2RB: Carly Simon

lol

Resist We Much on January 6, 2013 at 5:32 PM

davidk on January 6, 2013 at 5:22 PM

People don’t realize how dangerous a coyote is. One guy in my town was walking his tiny dog in a penned area in his yard when a coyote jumped the fence and grabbed the dog. He said it then jumped the fence again and went into the woods. He wasn’t armed because he was in a fenced area so he figured the dog was safe. That was only one of about a dozen dogs that got taken by coyotes in my town that year.

About ten years ago I walked out the back door and was confronted by one. It got very aggressive looking so I nailed it in the head with a small rock. It got even more nasty sounding so I nailed it with a bigger rock. It was at that point that it chased me into the house. Lucky that I was still at the door and it was 20 or so feet away. I came back out armed and intending to make sure it wasn’t going to make it out of my yard still walking but it was gone.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 5:32 PM

What do you bet it ends up skewing the stats on somebody’s list that way?

Hill60 on January 6, 2013 at 5:31 PM

He will.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 5:33 PM

rayra on January 6, 2013 at 3:44 PM

That’s good to hear. Hope it applies in this case.

NavyMustang on January 6, 2013 at 5:35 PM

True, but a smaller round is more controllable so you can put it on target more reliably. There is always a trade-off with any weapon you choose.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 5:31 PM

I know, like the tactical nuclear hand grenade. Throwing range of a few meters, blast radius of over a thousand!

astonerii on January 6, 2013 at 5:35 PM

I know, like the tactical nuclear hand grenade. Throwing range of a few meters, blast radius of over a thousand!

astonerii on January 6, 2013 at 5:35 PM

I have never been able to find those in stock or the ‘phased plasma rifle in a 40 watt range’. I hold Obama personally responsible.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 5:37 PM

I hope you never need to put your .22s to test in this type of live-fire situation. The smaller the projectile, the more crucial the placement. Always. Even with military 3400fps .223 rounds. My beagles would prefer I carry a .357, .40, or .45.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 5:28 PM

Been there, done that and I didn’t like the work it took to dig the hole. It was about an average, Sheppard size wild, no collar or tag, dog that came at me with intent one evening and it went down with a single shot. I put another one in its head to make sure. So I know for a fact that a .22 can take down a average size dog.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 5:40 PM

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 5:40 PM

Was thinking more of a cur pack. Glad it worked out.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 5:47 PM

Maybe if the local paper put an interactive map of gun owners on it’s website…

tdarrington on January 6, 2013 at 5:48 PM

…he’s out of jail… why?

Midas on January 6, 2013 at 4:24 PM

Its the liberal way. Rehabilitation and all that.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:25 PM

Because his attorneys are about to file a “cruel and unusual punishment” lawsuit, “unabe to fund a job now” and all that crap. A number of them were filed in recent times and yes, the scumbags walked off with positive verdicts.

I feel sorry for the woman that she didn’t finish off the idiot. With one round in the chamber it would have benefited not only her (against a possible lawsuit), but the rest of society as well.

riddick on January 6, 2013 at 5:52 PM

For you ladies, before you buy a semi-auto be sure you can operate it. A revolver may be a better choice.

countrybumpkin on January 6, 2013 at 4:42 PM

Sage advice, bump. A gun for the infrequent shooter that lacks hand strength needs to be easy and simple to load and handle. And a revolver has no active safety, and goes bang when the trigger is pulled, be it single or double action. And the advantage of a .357 is that practice can be with 38 specials, and the mags can be loaded for a defense situation, the extra recoil will not be noticed with the adrenaline.

iurockhead on January 6, 2013 at 5:54 PM

Not surprised, Slater is African American. After the Trayvon Martin incident I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s gets accused of violating his civil rights. Perhaps Al Sharpton or other “civil rights” lawyers will try to dig into her facebook inputs for indications of “racism”.

Chessplayer on January 6, 2013 at 3:52 PM

Not funny but it is. Remember those home security commercials they were running a couple years ago? Had four or five scenarios and the perp was always a white male. Made me want to move to the hood where things were safer.

arnold ziffel on January 6, 2013 at 5:54 PM

Stand by. This douchnozzle will sue the woman for use of “excessive force.”

NavyMustang on January 6, 2013 at 3:15 PM

Many of the 20 or so states that have added Castle Doctrine and Shall Issue CCW over the last decade have also added Civil Immunity for plugging a bad guy, to protect against just such abuse.

rayra on January 6, 2013 at 3:44 PM

Even without civil immunity, the burglar would never be able to win a case against the homeowner for excessive force. The fact that he was able to walk downstairs from the attic (where the shooting occurred), walk outside, get into his car, and drive away from the scene is conclusive proof that the force the homeowner used was not “excessive.”

AZCoyote on January 6, 2013 at 5:55 PM

davidk: Thanks!

Resist We Much on January 6, 2013 at 5:59 PM

In Texas one would say “Making me think of getting another gun.”
And the “another” wouldn’t be firearm no. 2. I’ve mentioned before that down here one doesn’t own a gun, one owns an arsenal, aka a veritable buffet of firepower.

TxAnn56 on January 6, 2013 at 4:01 PM

God I love Texas. That was poetry.
My neighbor lady and her husband just got their CCW permits here in CA.
She showed me her new SIG P-239. Love at first sight. Good thing mrs. ziffel is Mormon when it comes to more guns.

arnold ziffel on January 6, 2013 at 6:00 PM

The right ammo and the owner’s confidence will make a .380 the equal of a .357.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 4:22 PM

Very true.

Now how come no one is thinking .40 cal? Not too small, not too big. Just right.

arnold ziffel on January 6, 2013 at 6:05 PM

Even without civil immunity, the burglar would never be able to win a case against the homeowner for excessive force.

AZCoyote on January 6, 2013 at 5:55 PM

HUH!? You’re kidding, right? Plenty of recent cases to disprove you. You keep forgetting there is a bunch of liberal judges out there with no common sense whatsoever nor any knowledge of the law.

riddick on January 6, 2013 at 6:05 PM

My wife can shoot my 1911 and G30 (.45) with no problem and she’s a small gal.

tdarrington on January 6, 2013 at 6:07 PM

Now how come no one is thinking .40 cal? Not too small, not too big. Just right.

arnold ziffel on January 6, 2013 at 6:05 PM

‘Cause I don’t have one…yet.

cozmo on January 6, 2013 at 6:07 PM

True, but a smaller round is more controllable so you can put it on target more reliably. There is always a trade-off with any weapon you choose.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 5:31 PM

Never had any control problems with higher calibers. At legal SD range of 7 yds, I experience no discernable difference in accuracy among calibers. I have had better groupings at 25, 50 and 100 yds with the bigger, more powerful pistols, however. Just my experience, of course, YMMV.

Damn! All this gun talk makes me long to hit the range…

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 6:08 PM

Was thinking more of a cur pack. Glad it worked out.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 5:47 PM

Yeah, a pack would be a problem. I’ve seen mixed packs of coyotes and wild dogs with about 15-20 members run through my yard. They have slacked off a bit in recent years due to build up but I still see quite a few tracks in the backyard. Last year there was a black bear sighting a couple of miles from me. By sighting I mean pictures in the paper type of sighting. I don’t think a .22 would bother a bear much.:)

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 6:08 PM

Taurus makes a nice J model 5 shot 357 Mag.Same size as the 38 special Taurus.Plus you can use 38 in it also.Price about the same but twice the bang for the bucks.

logman1 on January 6, 2013 at 6:10 PM

I’m curious as to where you guys get your ammo online. I’m looking to compare to what I can get at the shops around here. Any suggestions?

visions on January 6, 2013 at 6:11 PM

For all the gun experts out there, I submit…

The best weapon for self-defense will be the weapon that you can get your hands on when you need a weapon.

For this lady and her children, there isn’t anything on the planet any better than a .38 revolver.

WestTexasBirdDog on January 6, 2013 at 6:13 PM

Glocks are nice semiautos because they have no mechanical safety to remember to disengage, and they have an 8-15 round mag depending on caliber. Would much rather my wife have her 15 round G19 in hand than a 6 shot revolver.

tdarrington on January 6, 2013 at 6:13 PM

Damn! All this gun talk makes me long to hit the range…

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 6:08 PM

Too late for me for that. I think I’ll make a martini and watch “Taken” which I like. Nothing like the fantasy of rescuing a family member and not giving a crap about the legal aspects.

Dr. Frank Enstine on January 6, 2013 at 6:14 PM

Now how come no one is thinking .40 cal? Not too small, not too big. Just right.

arnold ziffel on January 6, 2013 at 6:05 PM

My personal favorite. And tested to be most effective SD round.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 6:18 PM

Never had any control problems with higher calibers.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 6:08 PM

Yes, but annoyinglittletwerp is little…and annoying.

Also, controllable at the range is different than controllable in a dangerous situation.

http://www.virginiacops.org/articles/shooting/combat.htm

Hit Potential In Gun Fights

The police officer’s potential for hitting his adversary during armed confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of the rounds fired. An assailant’s skill was 11% in 1979.

In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ….. 38%
3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ….. 28%
3 yards to 7 yards …. 11%
7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

This makes what that women did, hitting 5 times out of 6 shots so remarkable.

The Disconnect Between Range Marksmanship & Combat Hitsmanship

It has been assumed that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can certainly do the same at three feet. That assumption is not borne out by the reports.

An attempt was made to relate an officer’s ability to strike a target in a combat situation to his range qualification scores. After making over 200 such comparisons, no firm conclusion was reached. To this writer’s mind, the study result establishes that there is indeed a disconnect between the two.

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 6:21 PM

My personal favorite. And tested to be most effective SD round.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 6:18 PM

I love em all. Have two Glocks in .40, two Sigs in 9mm and .40.
Thinking about 9mm for that new Sig 239.

arnold ziffel on January 6, 2013 at 6:25 PM

’m curious as to where you guys get your ammo online. I’m looking to compare to what I can get at the shops around here. Any suggestions?

visions on January 6, 2013 at 6:11 PM

I don’t bother. I buy a couple boxes from Walmart and then reload the brass. On standard rounds, nobody beats Wally’s prices. Not around here, anyway.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 6:26 PM

Libs believe that only the government (and other VIPs such as themselves) should have guns, and that government should be the only ones to protect the citizenry. Average folk are too dangerous and incompetent to take care of themselves.

And if they can’t, oh well…besides, the cops are “pigs” anyway so what do you expect?

Can’t win these arguments with them.

But, if you’re murdered, robbed or raped it’s still a righteous philosophical argument to them.

Oh, and there are a few Christians out there who are just as bad…you know, the types who light candles at executions.

Dr. ZhivBlago on January 6, 2013 at 6:30 PM

I don’t bother. I buy a couple boxes from Walmart and then reload the brass. On standard rounds, nobody beats Wally’s prices. Not around here, anyway.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 6:26 PM

what kind of projectile do you reload with? Or do you just do this for the target practicing?

astonerii on January 6, 2013 at 6:32 PM

Assuming a fixed barrel length, generally speaking, the energy (ft/lbs) ranges from about 100 (.22 LR) to 1000 (.44 Magnum).

For those who are of a math bend, E=1/2MV2–>1(ftlb)/7000g x 32.163Ft2/s2

E= Energy in foot pounds

As to the rounds discussed here, the .357 125gr Remington half Jacket HP is the round that earned the reputation for the .357 being a “Stopper” and the bullet expands rapidly and fragments. When Smith and Wesson first brought out the 357 Magnum, it was considered “too Much” and only sold to men of “Exceptional Physique” HA! It was sold with a solid lead slug called a “Semi-Wadcutter” (meaning it looked like a cone with the tip cut off).

Advancements in bullet technology have greatly lowered the speed that hollow-points open up, but bullet placement and energy still mean something. Liberals used to try to ban hollowpoint bullets till they found out they were more survivable than regular bullets (no exit hole, less pneumothorax, hemothroax, etc). Liberals spent nearly twenty years beating against this (because they hated guns) till finally they simply gave up. Now when the DHS buys 1.4 BILLION rounds of hollowpoint ammo, they are all fuzzy wuzzy with it.

Generally I would recommend that people continue to up their power till they reach a level that they know is “too much” and then back down one. A guy who can handle a 45 or 10mm fine may find a 41 Magnum “too much”. A lady may find a small frame 357 a real handslapper or just perfect. It is no slight finding this level, it is like choosing a Sword, the one that fits and feels right and you like becomes an extension of yourself and will serve you best.

Most ladies top out at .357 mag or .357 Sig or 40S&W, some shoot 10mm or 41 Magnum or 44 Magnum, some can only take 380.

Try everything till your hand finds its friend. Emphasize that more power can be reduced by loadings, but it harder to put power back that is missing.

Bulletchaser on January 6, 2013 at 6:35 PM

Dude, get some firearm instruction. A 357 is usually a very accurate pistol due to its long barrel and easy to shoot because its mass reduces felt recoil. SD is best done with a .45 or .40 S&W. ( A slow big hole or a very fast slightly smaller one. )

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 4:05 PM

Right, Sparky. Not all 357′s come standard with a “LONG BARREL.”
I’ve shot a Mark III with a 2-1/2″ barrel that is NO fun at all. If the recoil isn’t enough, the muzzle flash in a semi-dark indoor range with shut down the fun until your eyes adjust.

Find a firearm you can handle. Become familiar with it. Handle it, and shoot it often. Become familiar with it. Like picking up a ball point pen. It doesn’t matter what kind, what color, what size, et al., except for the 380′s on down.

If you can’t shoot it it is of absolutely no use to you.

Tenwheeler on January 6, 2013 at 6:37 PM

sharrukin on January 6, 2013 at 6:21 PM

I’ve been present at some of the local constabulary range quals. That’s not a group of marksmen. I wouldnt want to be a standing by when those guns leave their holsters. I think some find it more difficult to keep eyes on target and point of aim at center mass when presented with a closer target, but that can be managed with a tighter upper body position and work on the number one shooting variable: eye control.

ROCnPhilly on January 6, 2013 at 6:42 PM

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