Senate passes fiscal-cliff deal; House vote next

posted at 10:56 am on January 1, 2013 by Ed Morrissey

I’m a little under the weather today — a drag when you have family visiting from out of town — so we’re a little late getting a thread started on the Biden-McConnell fiscal-cliff deal.  The Senate voted overwhelmingly in favor of the package, which deals with tax rates but pushes spending decisions out another two months:

The Senate, in a pre-dawn vote two hours after the deadline passed to avert automatic tax increases, overwhelmingly approved legislation on Tuesday that would allow tax rates to rise only on affluent Americans while temporarily suspending sweeping, across-the-board spending cuts.

The deal, worked out in furious negotiations between Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and the Republican Senate leader, Mitch McConnell, passed 89 to 8, with just three Democrats and five Republicans voting no. Although it lost the support of some of the Senate’s most conservative members, the broad coalition that pushed the accord across the finish line could portend swift House passage as early as New Year’s Day.

Quick passage before the markets reopen on Wednesday would likely negate any economic damage from Tuesday’s breach of the so-called “fiscal cliff” and largely spare the nation’s economy from the one-two punch of large tax increases and across-the-board military and domestic spending cuts in the New Year.

John Boehner warned people not to expect a rubber stamp on the deal:

The House Speaker, John A. Boehner, and the Republican House leadership said the House would “honor its commitment to consider the Senate agreement.” But, they added, “decisions about whether the House will seek to accept or promptly amend the measure will not be made until House members — and the American people — have been able to review the legislation.”

What did the deal include?  It made permanent the Bush-era tax rates for everyone earning below $400,000 (and couples earning $450,000), while raising the marginal rate for everyone else to the Clinton-era 39.6%.  Some deductions will begin phasing out at $250,000, though, which gives Obama a win in the deal. Estate taxes will go back up again, and unemployment insurance will get another extension. The bill will also apply a permanent patch to the AMT.  However, the payroll-tax holiday will expire, which means that FICA withholding will return to the 2010 levels.

The deal did not include any resolution on either the sequester or the debt limit.  If there is a silver lining for Republicans, it’s that they have successfully delinked tax rates and spending issues in this fight.  The next round of bargaining will deal only with government spending, and House Republicans will have the debt ceiling as a powerful card to play.

With the Senate voting 89-8 in favor of the bill, I’d guess that House Republicans will grudgingly go along with the deal, with a big assist from House Democrats this time around.  They have until tomorrow to get the deal done in this session of Congress, though, so expect to hear plenty of debate first.


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The GOP and its leadership is to dysfunctional and disorganized to make any strong stands right now so therefore I understand why this will pass the house, etc.

The GOP needs to get its own house in order and needs new leadership before it can hope challenge Obama and the dems again. Of course we need spending cuts and entitlement reform, but that can’t happen until we get better leadership and a plan to take the war to Obama and the democrats, to make them react instead of the GOP always reacting and defending. The GOP never has learned how to be an insurgent party. They don’t know how to make political statements or to do civil disobedience.

For example when Obama decides to attack the GOP during the State of the Union address the GOP needs to walk out in mass. Some Republicans are too scared to do that, and others are stuck in ivory towers unable to see how political stunts and theater do work. If you want to get a point across you have to do it in dramatic ways.

William Eaton on January 1, 2013 at 1:06 PM

Ha ha ha ha…

So the RINOs in the Senate ended up voting for tax increases? Suckers… Obama must be in the 7th heaven right now, ecstatic as he watches the destruction of the Republican Party.

How can the GOP ever claim to be the party of lower taxes again?

TheRightMan on January 1, 2013 at 12:55 PM

They can’t; they just committed political suicide. Good riddance. Maybe with the final political death of the feckless GOP, “non-libs” in the country will finally begin to look elsewhere instead of holding out what has been demonstrated for a long time now to be nothing but false hope that the GOP represented them.

Midas on January 1, 2013 at 1:07 PM

Okay, so if we lost, and have nothing further to lose, why are we capitulating? And how is supporting Democrat lite policies going to accomplish anything?

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 12:29 PM

I don’t think Boehner has been “capitulating,” as you put it. I think he’s doing the best he can with a bad hand of cards. His aim is not to win, but simply to soften the blow to our country. Of course, he would have had a little more leverage if his Plan B had had support from his party, and that would have helped him get a slightly better deal. That’s neither here nor there at this point, though. He’s doing the best he can with what he’s been dealt.

I’m not delighted about any compromise that might come about now, nor am I furious about it either.

What surprises me is that there are still some conservatives around who believe that if we take a purely ideological approach and blast away, we will necessarily win because everyone will immediately accept the justice of our cause. That’s a foolish fantasy which sidetracks us from more constructive pursuits.

Burke on January 1, 2013 at 1:07 PM

Their goal is to turn this country into a Marxist utopia. They will try to do it by disarming us, but they realize that probably won’t work. The economy is the way they are doing it.

The printing presses are going full tilt. Stock up. Prices are going to skyrocket.

davidk on January 1, 2013 at 1:02 PM

The funny thing is, I think its far from written in stone that a progressive-induced economic collapse would lead to a socialist utopian economy raising from the ashes. I don’t know why / how they can be so sure that that will be the outcome. There are millions of other possibilities, not all of which include their survival, much less with them leading the “new economy” that has been “fundamentally transformed”

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:08 PM

According to the Congressional Budget Office, the last-minute fiscal cliff deal reached by congressional leaders and President Barack Obama cuts only $15 billion in spending while increasing tax revenues by $620 billion—a 41:1 ratio of tax increases to spending cuts.

Way to go DEM Lites…

Welcome to ONE party rule.

voiceofreason on January 1, 2013 at 1:09 PM

I don’t think Boehner has been “capitulating,” as you put it. I think he’s doing the best he can with a bad hand of cards. His aim is not to win, but simply to soften the blow to our country. Of course, he would have had a little more leverage if his Plan B had had support from his party, and that would have helped him get a slightly better deal. That’s neither here nor there at this point, though. He’s doing the best he can with what he’s been dealt.

I’m not delighted about any compromise that might come about now, nor am I furious about it either.

What surprises me is that there are still some conservatives around who believe that if we take a purely ideological approach and blast away, we will necessarily win because everyone will immediately accept the justice of our cause. That’s a foolish fantasy which sidetracks us from more constructive pursuits.

Burke on January 1, 2013 at 1:07 PM

The fact that Boehner proposed Plan B was worse for the country then if he had just voted present and allowed O’s original plan to go through. By accepting the premise that raising taxes “on the rich” will bring in “x amount of revenue” to “balance the budget,” he not only lost the battle, but he lost the war.

Standing firm on the idea that raising taxes will result in less economic growth, less revenue (over the long term) to DC, less economic freedom & liberty, was all Boehner had to do. Because whether taxes go up on me or you or rich people or whoever, that premise as already been accepted. The Republicans have proven that they have no different economic ideas than the worn out keynesian progressive ideas.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:12 PM

The taxes rate on those making less than $400,000 will be the same. But they are calling it a “tax cut.”

The sad thing is, most of those people, while maybe not saying it out loud, will think, “well at least they my taxes didn’t go up.” They don’t realize the trickle down effect of a realized $600 billion tax hike.

davidk on January 1, 2013 at 1:02 PM

And the reality is that their taxes will be going up anyway – they will all be taking home less due to SS changes, Obamacare taxes, etc – even if they are exempted from the tax increases. No ones going to be thinking they got a tax cut no matter how many times people tell them they did – unless their mentally unstable like libs or tommy71, etc.

Midas on January 1, 2013 at 1:04 PM

I thought about that after I posted. I probably ought to amend my comments by saying, I will use my “tax cut” paying for the other new taxes.

davidk on January 1, 2013 at 1:12 PM

Give me a lib-tardian Dem D-bag any day of the week.

I KNOW what they think…I KNOW what they’re about…I KNOW how they operate

Today’s RINO repub leadership, however, baffles me. They talk a great game, but when the rubber meets the road, when it gets down to that important vote….they’ll backstab you every time…principles and/or party rhetoric (cuz that’s all it ever is)be damned

F*ck McConnell

and

F*ck Boner.

May you both be blessed with flesh-eating bacteria on or about your genital regions.

I can’t stand to even look at either of you.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 1:13 PM

F*ck McConnell

and

F*ck Boner.

May you both be blessed with flesh-eating bacteria on or about your genital regions.

I can’t stand to even look at either of you.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 1:13 PM

I have some libertarian friends who vote for the most socialist people possible because of that reason. They say both parties will screw us, but at least the democrats will be honest about it. If we’re going forward to an economic collapse anyways, might as well do it with people who don’t hide their intentions instead of getting our hopes up on liars and charlatans.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:16 PM

The funny thing is, I think its far from written in stone that a progressive-induced economic collapse would lead to a socialist utopian economy raising from the ashes. I don’t know why / how they can be so sure that that will be the outcome. There are millions of other possibilities, not all of which include their survival, much less with them leading the “new economy” that has been “fundamentally transformed”

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:08 PM

I have wondered about that, too. That is why they will still go hard after our guns.

To my way of thinking, we have, at this point, as good of an opportunity to rebuild America as they do building USSoA.

Even better. They may be able to get the moochers to the polling place by offering free phones, but when the SHTF and bullets start flying, the lazy and unproductive will take cover.

It only took 3% of the colonialists to over come the might of the British.

davidk on January 1, 2013 at 1:19 PM

might as well do it with people who don’t hide their intentions instead of getting our hopes up on liars and charlatans.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:16 PM

We should at least be allowed to pelt them with rotten vegetables in the public square.

We’ve earned at least that.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 1:20 PM

Next up, “sensible” gun control.

claudius on January 1, 2013 at 1:23 PM

I don’t think Boehner has been “capitulating,” as you put it. I think he’s doing the best he can with a bad hand of cards. His aim is not to win, but simply to soften the blow to our country. Of course, he would have had a little more leverage if his Plan B had had support from his party, and that would have helped him get a slightly better deal. That’s neither here nor there at this point, though. He’s doing the best he can with what he’s been dealt.

I’m not delighted about any compromise that might come about now, nor am I furious about it either.

What surprises me is that there are still some conservatives around who believe that if we take a purely ideological approach and blast away, we will necessarily win because everyone will immediately accept the justice of our cause. That’s a foolish fantasy which sidetracks us from more constructive pursuits.

Burke on January 1, 2013 at 1:07 PM

Boehner’s biggest mistake is not Plan B but is constant need to negotiate with Obama. After that fails he always gets in front of the TV cameras bewailing the fact that Obama won’t lead Boehner, blaming the Tea Party for why Obama won’t lead Boehner and in general looking like a complete wuss. Can you image the democrats complaining to the media that a Republican president won’t lead them? It just looks and sounds idiotic. Why the heck do I want the opposition party’s leader to lead my party? Lead us…lead me…command me oh master…

Oh brother….

William Eaton on January 1, 2013 at 1:23 PM

They can’t; they just committed political suicide. Good riddance. Maybe with the final political death of the feckless GOP, “non-libs” in the country will finally begin to look elsewhere instead of holding out what has been demonstrated for a long time now to be nothing but false hope that the GOP represented them.

Midas on January 1, 2013 at 1:07 PM

I am dumbfounded by their stupidity and incompetence. The GOP is really finished.

dogsoldier on January 1, 2013 at 1:25 PM

Okay, so if we lost, and have nothing further to lose, why are we capitulating? And how is supporting Democrat lite policies going to accomplish anything?
Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 12:29 PM

See, here’s the thing, Timin. You, and many like you, use terms in statements such as this like “we”, practically assuming ownership of the GOP. As if you and people like you ARE the Republican Party.

But you’re not, you’re just a faction of it. An unelected and hardly catered to until your votes are needed faction at that. You are used by the Republican Party. You were used in 2010 to save their asses because they had nothing left to rely on except stoking your anger, fear, and victim mentality. Otherwise the party was screwed.

But that’s the only time you are called upon and counted by them. The rest of the time they recognize that reality is more complicated than AM radio soundbites. They’re happy to take advantage of you, but don’t expect them to commit seppuku on your behalf. They won’t.

You have no power. You hold no sway. Even the “Tea Party” representatives aren’t pure enough. And no can be pure enough for you and ever actually govern much less get elected most likely.

Why do you think Rush Limbaugh doesn’t ever run for any office? Because it only works on the radio, and comments sections on echo chamber websites where you can spout off your righteous indignation.

But face it. The reason “we” won’t be taking a knife to America to prove your point is because, it’s only your point and those like you, and your only a voting faction with no real power in the government. And the only times you’ve been teased with the notion that you ARE powerful? Yep, right before elections that would otherwise have been dismal without the outrage they induced in you, the promotion they provided you, and the hope they dangled in your face to tempt you.

Right before they put you back in the back seat because you, and those like you, are little more than an electoral safeguard, a political strategy. While they continue to try to walk the tightrope of pretending they actually cared about you opinions as the turn around and try to do the best they can otherwise after your use has been fulfilled.

There is no “we”. You are not a part of it. Your a powerless pawn who if they played to you, and those like you, for REAL after your use was completed, “we” would be destroyed.

Your ploys won’t work. Your strategies are aimed at vengeance. And the policies you would like to see would go down in a huge swath of flames if anyone in power ever tried to actually put them forth.

THAT’s why “we” don’t just follow you, and those like you, down the rabbit hole.

You’re only scared and feel like a victim because “we” needed your votes, your ideas? Yeah those are stupid. If well intentioned. You know what they say about that road to hell though.

Happy New Year! ;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 1:26 PM

We should at least be allowed to pelt them with rotten vegetables in the public square.

We’ve earned at least that.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 1:20 PM

Yeah, and what ever happened to tarring and feathering? I think it was a great tradition for dealing with politicians and should be brought back.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:27 PM

Standing firm on the idea that raising taxes will result in less economic growth, less revenue (over the long term) to DC, less economic freedom & liberty, was all Boehner had to do. Because whether taxes go up on me or you or rich people or whoever, that premise as already been accepted. The Republicans have proven that they have no different economic ideas than the worn out keynesian progressive ideas.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:12 PM

I think those are all good arguments, Timin203, but I have some sympathy for Republican politicians who try to get that message out and aren’t supported by our culture, media or corrupt citizenry. Citizens have been informed with great authority that the rich can pay for everything and nobody need therefore make any sacrifices (except for the rich). Countering that talking point in short sound bites that aren’t reported or are distorted isn’t effective. Free enterprise can’t be taught in a few seconds.

I think Sarah Palin did the best job speaking the truth about these issues of any politician or pundit I’ve observed, but she was crucified and eventually was forced to withdraw from politics altogether. Seeing that example, I doubt others want to repeat her fate.

Burke on January 1, 2013 at 1:29 PM

What surprises me is that there are still some conservatives around who believe that if we take a purely ideological approach and blast away, we will necessarily win because everyone will immediately accept the justice of our cause. That’s a foolish fantasy which sidetracks us from more constructive pursuits.

Burke on January 1, 2013 at 1:07 PM

What is purely ideological about sticking to a principle that we do NOT, as a party, raise taxes on anyone because that is NOT the solution? And by anyone, I mean both RICH and POOR.

By accepting the premise, as Boehner’s Plan B did, that the RICH was not paying their so-called FAIR SHARE… the argument was laready lost!

And this was by design!

You think Boehner and his RINO leadership cannot fight? See how they take on conservatives in the party.

We’ve been played for fools.

Who set up this fiscal cliff? Boehner and McConnell. Recall how the tea party conservatives were told to get their asses in line?

Now why would they set up a deal where the GOP got to lose way more than Democrats? And yet Boehner said at the time that he obtained 98% of what he wanted from the deal! How smart did that turn out?

I submit that Boehner, McConnell, and the big spending Republicans are one and the same with the Democrats when it comes to growing the Govt. They love their perks and power.

Why will they have any incentive to shrink the Govt?

TheRightMan on January 1, 2013 at 1:30 PM

TheRightMan on January 1, 2013 at 1:30 PM

perfect.

This in particular:

You think Boehner and his RINO leadership cannot fight? See how they take on conservatives in the party.

We’ve been played for fools.

(pisses me off)

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 1:36 PM

Did you really think the Republicans were gonna try to abolish the swath of federal agencies you’d like to see axed? Much less ACCOMPLISH it, in AMERICA?

Did you really think suddenly you were gonna find your government sounding just like your radio station and that the whole country would have this great epiphany where your goodness and infallible red meat logic were embraced as truth?

Did you really think it was even possible, much less likely?

If so, that bridge people talk about selling, yeah you bought it.

Don’t be so upset now that you got the bill. It’s your fault and your lack of discernment and objectivity that allowed you to fall for the ruse, and send the same folks right back to their same spots to do the same things, imagining they were gonna be working for you, instead of us?

You are not even close to majority position in the government as True Conservatives(TM) just a cheap voter pool like Mexico provides cheap labor you can owe nothing to in the end.

Love it or leave it. ;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 1:36 PM

bi$th and moan on HA

HotAirLib on January 1, 2013 at 12:11 PM

…giving us afterbirth and fecal matter…such as HotLips !

KOOLAID2 on January 1, 2013 at 1:41 PM

If we’re getting technical, EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN AMERICAN will already be paying more taxes in 2013 then they paid in 2012. There is NO tax cut anywhere.

There are no tax cuts and no spending cuts. Worst of both worlds. If we’re going to have a massive welfare state, how about instead of pawning the cost off on future generations, we make current idiots who voted for it pay for it? Just a thought.

Timin203

As of today Jan 1, everyone who pays taxes just got a giant tax increase, so yes, this bill is a TAX CUT for about 98% of Americans. What other logic are you using?

Comparing it to previous years is meaningless. That’s like saying the Bush Tax cuts were actually tax increases because under Reagan marginal rates were lower. I’ll take whatever tax cuts I can get.

Do we need a few months of higher taxes for it to set in first? Taxes went up and Republicans are pushing for an much tax cuts as possible, and this what they got. We would have gotten more had we won the election, but we didn’t.

The new conservative grassroots position seems to be “Let’s get taxes up sky high and hope to burn the country down.”

BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 1:41 PM

Yeah, and what ever happened to tarring and feathering? I think it was a great tradition for dealing with politicians and should be brought back.
Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:27 PM

Well get to it, Mr. Adams. What are you afraid of? Load up a few buddies, snatch a politician, and give it a go. If not now, when? What are you waiting for?

You gonna do a thing beyond talk big?

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 1:46 PM

The new conservative grassroots position seems to be “Let’s get taxes up sky high and hope to burn the country down.”
BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 1:41 PM

It is. The true Alinsky’s indeed.

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 1:48 PM

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 1:27 PM

Well get to it, Mr. Adams. What are you afraid of? Load up a few buddies, snatch a politician, and give it a go. If not now, when? What are you waiting for?

You gonna do a thing beyond talk big?

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 1:46 PM

I’m in.

Now where exactly do you get tar? (I’ve got a couple of bucket’s of “Henry’s”, but I’d like to go the more traditional route).

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 1:49 PM

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 1:26 PM

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 1:36 PM

Why is straight talk so refreshing?

Cleombrotus on January 1, 2013 at 1:57 PM

The Repubics totally, totally, caved……. disgusting, spineless basta*rds. God Save America.

ultracon on January 1, 2013 at 1:57 PM

The deal did not include any resolution on either the sequester or the debt limit. If there is a silver lining for Republicans, it’s that they have successfully delinked tax rates and spending issues in this fight. The next round of bargaining will deal only with government spending, and House Republicans will have the debt ceiling as a powerful card to play.

ROTFLMMFAO!!!

Yeah…I’ll hold my breath.

Friggin’ Hilarious.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 1:58 PM

http://www.businessinsider.com/breaking-full-text-of-the-157-page-bill-to-avert-the-fiscal-cliff-2013-1

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=112&session=2&vote=00251

Vote Counts: Yeas: 89

NAYS:8
Bennet (D-CO)
Carper (D-DE)
Grassley (R-IA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Lee (R-UT)
Paul (R-KY)
Rubio (R-FL)
Shelby (R-AL)

Not Voting: 3
DeMint (R-SC)
Kirk (R-IL)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)

bluefox on January 1, 2013 at 1:59 PM

So the GOP got absolutely nothing.

Obama got everything he wanted and more. Only an insane person would thing Obama started at what he actually wanted. Most likely he wanted the cuts at 500k but got 400k.

STUPID PARTY at it’s worst.

Steveangell on January 1, 2013 at 2:01 PM

Not Voting: 3
DeMint (R-SC)
Kirk (R-IL)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)

bluefox on January 1, 2013 at 1:59 PM

Gutless, self-preserving a-holes.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:02 PM

Way to go DEM Lites…

Welcome to ONE party rule.

voiceofreason on January 1, 2013 at 1:09 PM

.
I’m thinking we’ve already had “one party rule” in the form of a ‘shadow government’ since the late ’60s.

It’s starting to become more “out-of-the-closet” lately, proving they must think they have us “beyond the point of no return”.

(BTW … I don’t believe we are)

listens2glenn on January 1, 2013 at 2:06 PM

As of today Jan 1, everyone who pays taxes just got a giant tax increase, so yes, this bill is a TAX CUT for about 98% of Americans. What other logic are you using?

Comparing it to previous years is meaningless. That’s like saying the Bush Tax cuts were actually tax increases because under Reagan marginal rates were lower. I’ll take whatever tax cuts I can get.

Do we need a few months of higher taxes for it to set in first? Taxes went up and Republicans are pushing for an much tax cuts as possible, and this what they got. We would have gotten more had we won the election, but we didn’t.

The new conservative grassroots position seems to be “Let’s get taxes up sky high and hope to burn the country down.”

BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 1:41 PM

There is a lot of stupid in there. First off, taxes only “went up” because boehner and obama set up this ludicrous “fiscal cliff” to avert our last “crisis.” They slated for taxes to go up for everyone on 1/1/13, then let the taxes go up, then came along and said, “actually, we’re going to cut the rates back to what they’ve been for the last 10 years for everyone except certain people, who are keeping their new rates.” which is functionally no different from Obama and Boehner having made an agreement to raise taxes on “the rich” and keeping 10 year old tax rates in place for everyone else.

So, you can call it a tax cut if you want, but everyone will be paying more in taxes (obamacare taxes, higher payroll deductions) starting today thanks to Obama and Boehner. Only in DC is that a tax cut.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 2:08 PM

Wow, I certainly muffed that link insertion, huh?

Please don’t tar and feather me, I know you’re serious characters. Brave, courageous, patriots willing to do whatever it takes. ;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:15 PM

Thee is no Cliff.

It is a small bump at worst. 10% is little more than statistical noise. That is 10% of the deficit 4% of Government Spending how is that a cliff?

Steveangell on January 1, 2013 at 2:17 PM

Heh, just don’t learn, eh? America will never be the way AM radio says it is, and it never has been.

Either give up hope, or don’t make big man pronouncements you have no fortitude to back up.

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:13 PM

lol….try decaf sparky….and you might want to grow a sense of humor too.

Thanks for the link though…..BTW..how many pounds of tar for the average RINO?

Anybody?

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:18 PM

You think Boehner and his RINO leadership cannot fight? See how they take on conservatives in the party.

We’ve been played for fools.

TheRightMan on January 1, 2013 at 1:30 PM

.
(pisses me off)

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 1:36 PM

.
I “feel” both of you … : (

listens2glenn on January 1, 2013 at 2:19 PM

This really is not the hill to die on for Republicans.

Stoic Patriot

That’s the problem with folks like you…there’s never a hill to die on when it comes to Republicans. And to make it even worse, you repeat dem talking points like they’re your own. No wonder we can’t make any headway with the public.

xblade on January 1, 2013 at 2:21 PM

What is purely ideological about sticking to a principle that we do NOT, as a party, raise taxes on anyone because that is NOT the solution? And by anyone, I mean both RICH and POOR.

TheRightMan on January 1, 2013 at 1:30 PM

I don’t think this argument as you’ve stated it is very convincing to most people. They look at the rich who seem to have too much money and say, “Why shouldn’t they contribute a little more? They don’t need all of that extra dough, do they?”

Just repeating over and over that “We are the party that doesn’t believe in higher taxes!” while banging on the table and looking mad doesn’t win over converts.

(By the way, why shouldn’t we raise money on the poor? Maybe if they paid more taxes, they would be more invested in our society and wouldn’t constantly be asking for freebies. Just a thought.)

For decades, Republicans have been winning over the middle class by saying, “We won’t raise your taxes. The Democrats will take your money, but not us. Nope. Because we value your right to be selfishly independent.” This has been appealing for obvious reasons, but it corrupted the middle class because it used greed as a motivator. Now, however, Democrats aren’t talking about taking away money from the middle class; they’re offering money from the rich. And this argument is particularly effective because the middle class has been corrupted into voting for their self interest for so long. The indirect and counterintuitive benefits of free enterprise have hardly even entered into the argument.

Now, an argument based on greed doesn’t work anymore. And neither do simple slogans like “We’re the party that doesn’t raise taxes!”

That’s why we’re in such sad shape. Because we’ve depended on slogans and greed for so long and haven’t put much effort into clear thinking or education about how free enterprise and markets work.

And please don’t expect Boehner to suddenly teach the country how free enterprise works in ten-second soundbites. It’s too late in the day for that.

Burke on January 1, 2013 at 2:22 PM

It only took 3% of the colonialists to over come the might of the British.

davidk
on January 1, 2013 at 1:19 PM

.
That, and GOD.

listens2glenn on January 1, 2013 at 2:22 PM

lol….try decaf sparky….and you might want to grow a sense of humor too.
Thanks for the link though…..BTW..how many pounds of tar for the average RINO?
Anybody?
Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:18 PM

Haha! Humor?!

Oh that’s a cute back pedal, sweetheart. So basically you’re saying that, oh you were just kidding, when asked to put up or shut up, eh?

What about you, Timin? Gonna fall back on “humor” too to save face from the fact that you won’t be the one to actually act on the things you say should be done? Should just be someone else who takes the risk, huh?

The republic and your principles aren’t important enough? Or were they just humor too?

Paper.tigers.

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:24 PM

There is something worse on Reid’s agenda it seems. No one is talking about it. But I received an email from DeMint’s Senate Conservative Fund about the Filibuster Reform Proposal.
The desire to hide their legislation is also why a new filibuster reform proposal was announced yesterday that will:

1.Shorten the time a bill is debated down to just two days; and

2.Eliminate all but two Republican amendments per bill.

You see, the plan only guarantees two Republican amendments and those amendments can only be offered by the Republican Leader and the top Republican on the committee with jurisdiction of the bill. This protects senior lawmakers, but it means a freshman like Ted Cruz (R-TX) won’t be allowed to offer his ideas.

http://www.senateconservatives.com/site/post/1698/senators-love-to-hide

bluefox on January 1, 2013 at 2:25 PM

That, and GOD.

listens2glenn on January 1, 2013 at 2:22 PM

You got that right.

But would GOD help us now?

Steveangell on January 1, 2013 at 2:25 PM

That, and GOD.

listens2glenn on January 1, 2013 at 2:22 PM

Pretty sure that our Government replaced Him with allah around 2008…but point taken.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:25 PM

What about you, Timin? Gonna fall back on “humor” too to save face from the fact that you won’t be the one to actually act on the things you say should be done? Should just be someone else who takes the risk, huh?

The republic and your principles aren’t important enough? Or were they just humor too?

Huh? Why am I involved in this? I haven’t really been following your ramblings, to be honest.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 2:27 PM

There is a lot of stupid in there. First off, taxes only “went up” because boehner and obama set up this ludicrous “fiscal cliff” to avert our last “crisis.” They slated for taxes to go up for everyone on 1/1/13, then let the taxes go up, then came along and said, “actually, we’re going to cut the rates back to what they’ve been for the last 10 years for everyone except certain people, who are keeping their new rates.” which is functionally no different from Obama and Boehner having made an agreement to raise taxes on “the rich” and keeping 10 year old tax rates in place for everyone else.

So, you can call it a tax cut if you want, but everyone will be paying more in taxes (obamacare taxes, higher payroll deductions) starting today thanks to Obama and Boehner. Only in DC is that a tax cut.

You seem to live in some sort of alternate universe. Whatever happened in the past is meaningless, as of Jan 1, taxes went up. Saying anything different is a lie.

I think a lot of the “let’s burn it down” crowd are people that probably don’t actually pay any taxes anyway and are likely part of the 47%.

For a small business owner like me, this is the difference of about six figures in extra taxes over 4 years. That’s the biggest reason why I vote Republican, to try and keep my taxes as low as possible. It doesn’t mean I get my ideal tax rates, but the perfect is often the enemy of the good.

We got here because the American people voted twice for Obama as President and Democrats to control the Senate, some people seem to forget elections have consequences. If Republicans won the Senate and White house, we wouldn’t be making deals like this. Some clueless conservatives have this asinine idea that conservatives can both lose elections and get everything they want in public policy, they just need to be better negotiators. It’s laughable.

Doing nothing would means Obama gets an enormous tax increase. Is that a conservative victory? I really don’t want to pay an extra $150k in taxes to prove a point.

BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 2:27 PM

It only took 3% of the colonialists to over come the might of the British.

davidk on January 1, 2013 at 1:19 PM

Oh come on then, that’s easy! 3%?! That’s like the percentage of gay people right?! Surely you can defeat the US government. No big deal.

So, when do you start? When can we expect to jot your name down next to John Adams and George Washington, sir?

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:28 PM

Haha! Humor?!

Oh that’s a cute back pedal, sweetheart. So basically you’re saying that, oh you were just kidding, when asked to put up or shut up, eh?

What about you, Timin? Gonna fall back on “humor” too to save face from the fact that you won’t be the one to actually act on the things you say should be done? Should just be someone else who takes the risk, huh?

The republic and your principles aren’t important enough? Or were they just humor too?

Paper.tigers.

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:24 PM

Yeah..you got us sparky….we don’t really intend to kidnap a RINO and tar and feather him.

Feel better?

Now relax….and seek medical help…lol.

signed

“paper Tiger”

LMFAO.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:29 PM

That’s the biggest reason why I vote Republican, to try and keep my taxes as low as possible. It doesn’t mean I get my ideal tax rates, but the perfect is often the enemy of the good.

We got here because the American people voted twice for Obama as President and Democrats to control the Senate, some people seem to forget elections have consequences. If Republicans won the Senate and White house, we wouldn’t be making deals like this. Some clueless conservatives have this asinine idea that conservatives can both lose elections and get everything they want in public policy, they just need to be better negotiators. It’s laughable.

Doing nothing would means Obama gets an enormous tax increase. Is that a conservative victory? I really don’t want to pay an extra $150k in taxes to prove a point.

BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 2:27 PM

I’m glad to hear your connection to freedom and liberty is nothing more then you personally being bought off. You don’t care about the rest of the economy and the future of our economy and our currency as long as your short term tax bill doesn’t go up?

And trust me, I do pay taxes. Way more then I should be reasonably asked to pay, especially since I use next to no government services.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 2:30 PM

Huh? Why am I involved in this? I haven’t really been following your ramblings, to be honest.
Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 2:27 PM

Oh I was just wondering when we could expect to see you stepping outside of the house to round up a few buddies, snatch a pol, and get to tarring and feathering like you advocated.

Pretty easy to follow really, just look for your handle in quotes at the top of a post responding.

;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:32 PM

I’m glad to hear your connection to freedom and liberty is nothing more then you personally being bought off. You don’t care about the rest of the economy and the future of our economy and our currency as long as your short term tax bill doesn’t go up?

Please tell me how I’m more free by paying a higher tax bill or how that will shrink government?

BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 2:34 PM

Yeah..you got us sparky….we don’t really intend to kidnap a RINO and tar and feather him.

Feel better?

Now relax….and seek medical help…lol.

signed

“paper Tiger”

LMFAO.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:29 PM

He is either a coward who already has a gallon of K-Y Jelly smeared over his ass and is anxiously awaitng the pounding to come, or a Federal Agent Marxist Obamaphile attempting to goad people here into saying something that will give his corrupt agency an excuse to shut Hot Air down, what ever you do, don’t give him that provocation.

Permanent Trollcott on Genuine.

SWalker on January 1, 2013 at 2:35 PM

Yeah..you got us sparky….we don’t really intend to kidnap a RINO and tar and feather him.
Feel better?
Now relax….and seek medical help…lol.
signed
“paper Tiger”
LMFAO.
Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:29 PM

But isn’t the Republic being murdered before our eyes? Aren’t you just being sold out by those evil politicians in dc who just want to destroy the country and, “it’s purposeful”? Doesn’t the tree of liberty need to be watered again?

I mean, we hear it every day from posters here, just wondering when we can expect you guys to actually be the ones to do it, or if you’re just hoping for someone else to shoulder the risk because you’re scared, comfortable, and MAYBE just don’t believe the AM hype as strongly as you guys portray, once it comes to your own lives.

;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:37 PM

As of today Jan 1, everyone who pays taxes just got a giant tax increase, so yes, this bill is a TAX CUT for about 98% of Americans. What other logic are you using?

BradTank

Good luck with THAT logic. No one received a tax cut with this bill. And by the way, 98% of Americans can’t get a tax cut anyway because we don’t have a 98% employment rate. You can’t cut taxes for 98% of the country when only 50% are working.

xblade on January 1, 2013 at 2:39 PM

He is either a coward who already has a gallon of K-Y Jelly smeared over his ass and is anxiously awaitng the pounding to come, or a Federal Agent Marxist Obamaphile attempting to goad people here into saying something that will give his corrupt agency an excuse to shut Hot Air down, what ever you do, don’t give him that provocation.
Permanent Trollcott on Genuine.
SWalker on January 1, 2013 at 2:35 PM

So says Swalker, exhibit A, subject one in the “Mr. big britches who will only talk anonymously on the Internet about lyn*hing media members, but doesn’t have the nerve to back up his words with his OWN skin” case.

What’s wrong Swalker? Don’t want a Treasonous Fifth Column Media Propagandist hang*ing from every light post anymore? Isn’t that your motto?

Paper tiger, indeed. Such a big shot, JUST like Sam Adams, exactly. ;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM

Oh I was just wondering when we could expect to see you stepping outside of the house to round up a few buddies, snatch a pol, and get to tarring and feathering like you advocated.

Pretty easy to follow really, just look for your handle in quotes at the top of a post responding.

;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:32 PM

Obviously I was being facetious, I’m not a proponent of actually assaulting people and tarring and feathering them. Was that your big point?

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM

I mean, we hear it every day from posters here, just wondering when we can expect you guys to actually be the ones to do it, or if you’re just hoping for someone else to shoulder the risk because you’re scared, comfortable, and MAYBE just don’t believe the AM hype as strongly as you guys portray, once it comes to your own lives.

;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:37 PM

LOL….And this stemmed from a joke about rotten vegetables and tar & Feathers?

Amigo…you really need to screw your head on straight and start picking your battles.

You’re starting to sound like a wet-brained moron going off the deep end

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:44 PM

Obviously I was being facetious, I’m not a proponent of actually assaulting people and tarring and feathering them. Was that your big point?
Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 2:41 PM

But but, the republic is being destroyed, and “it’s purposeful”! DC is filled with vile evil pols who just can’t seem to understand it should be just like the guys on the radio say.

I got it though, “humor” and being “facetious”. Just jokes, huh?

It’s really cute. :)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:48 PM

But but, the republic is being destroyed, and “it’s purposeful”! DC is filled with vile evil pols who just can’t seem to understand it should be just like the guys on the radio say.

I got it though, “humor” and being “facetious”. Just jokes, huh?

It’s really cute. :)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:48 PM

lol…got it!

You’re a concern-Troll-Douche!!

lmao…I’m a little slow, and tend to give most the benefit of the doubt.

Well played douchemaster!

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:52 PM

LOL….And this stemmed from a joke about rotten vegetables and tar & Feathers?
Amigo…you really need to screw your head on straight and start picking your battles.
You’re starting to sound like a wet-brained moron going off the deep end
Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:44 PM

Nah, just like challenging comments section r*volutionaries to actually back up their big, brave, melodramatic pronouncements with action with their own skin.

They never do. ;)

It’s ok though, we know you just need to vent your frustrations and pretend to be Samuel Adams in your three cornered hats and knee socks.

Since you have no real representation in the government and apparently hold the only answer.

Muah!

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:53 PM

It’s ok though, we know you just need to vent your frustrations and pretend to be Samuel Adams in your three cornered hats and knee socks.

Since you have no real representation in the government and apparently hold the only answer.

Muah!

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:53 PM

Don’t forget my squirrel gun…oh and my love of the flag….oh, and my Bible!

LMFAO….you nothing but a liberal cliche’…please carry on…

You’re Hilarious!

(you stand for nothing….but you’re sincerely funny)

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:57 PM

Good luck with THAT logic. No one received a tax cut with this bill. And by the way, 98% of Americans can’t get a tax cut anyway because we don’t have a 98% employment rate. You can’t cut taxes for 98% of the country when only 50% are working.

My “logic” is reality. What’s yours?

Please tell me the tax rate for a family making $100k today as of Jan 1, 2013. Also also include capital gains and Estate taxes.

Then tell me the tax rate for a family making $100k after the proposed tax cut that passed in the Senate.

The second one is substantially lower. That’s a tax cut. I guess we could also compare it to taxes in the 19th century before there was actually an income tax to show that’s it actually a huge tax increase, but that’s absurd.

Is it my ideal tax cut, no. But is that the new standard? Since we can’t get 100% of the Bush tax cuts, Republicans should not pursue ANY tax relief? I’m honestly asking. Are we just to wait until Obama is no longer President before we’re allowed to try and lower taxes?

BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 3:02 PM

But but, the republic is being destroyed, and “it’s purposeful”! DC is filled with vile evil pols who just can’t seem to understand it should be just like the guys on the radio say.

I got it though, “humor” and being “facetious”. Just jokes, huh?

It’s really cute. :)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 2:48 PM

I’m not really following the “guys on the radio” thing. I don’t even own a radio (except in my car), and I don’t listen to any guys on the radio.

Timin203 on January 1, 2013 at 3:10 PM

Don’t forget my squirrel gun…oh and my love of the flag….oh, and my Bible!
LMFAO….you nothing but a liberal cliche’…please carry on…
You’re Hilarious!
(you stand for nothing….but you’re sincerely funny)
Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 2:57 PM

Well, you have no idea what I do or don’t stand for, but thank you, Mr. Revere. :)

Good to have a few admit it’s only big boastful talk when called out. Even if you have to go to calling them jokes when challenged.

Ask Swalker or primordialorderedpair though, now those guys? Real tough guys who believe in their “priciples” enough to back up their words. ;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 3:12 PM

Permanent Trollcott on Genuine.

SWalker on January 1, 2013 at 2:35 PM

lol…not sure how I missed this, SW.

Thanks for trying!

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 3:12 PM

Good to have a few admit it’s only big boastful talk when called out. Even if you have to go to calling them jokes when challenged.

Ask Swalker or primordialorderedpair though, now those guys? Real tough guys who believe in their “priciples” enough to back up their words. ;)

Genuine on January 1, 2013 at 3:12 PM

Seriously my brother…if you truly can’t tell the difference between good natured ribbing by and between conservatives…and real life….it might just be time to seek out a little medical help.

There’s no shame in it.

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 3:15 PM

Maybe I am a liberal, as I seem to be one of very few who think this is a pretty good deal, as I understand it.

Bush tax rates now permanent for everyone below $400,000/year single filer. This is a huge win. Republicans can still cut the upper rates later if they have the votes and the public support, but Dems will have a hard time raising taxes on folks later.

Permanent fix on AMT.

True, deal tax goes up by 5 points, but the under 5 million exemption stays in place (Dems wanted it reduced to 1 million).

I always thought the payroll tax holiday was a crude Obama gimmick, so I am not sorry to see that go.

Unemployment benefit extension is not worth fighting about in this economy.

Doc fix is business as usual, and will allow Obamacare to be unmasked as the budget buster it really is. The original CBO score showing Obamacare reducing the budget is based on current law that assumes doc fix will expire and deep cuts will be made to Medicare payments. Never happens, never will.

Debt ceiling and spending cuts decoupled from tax issues. Looking forward to a big fight in a month.

Obama and Harry Reid just kneecapped by McConnell and Biden.

There were two ways for Republicans to deal with the fiscal cliff. Accept that everyone hates the party, go over the cliff, hold strong and refuse to hold any votes, obstruct any votes that would give Democrats a perceived win, and wait for the public tide to turn against the Democrats, which it probably would.

Either that, or make the best deal possible.

I personally was for option 1. My feeling was that, despite the polls, and the Democrats bluster, in the long term going over the cliff would do tremendous damage to the Democrats, and the public figured out what voting for Obama and his program really meant for them.

I think Obama and Reid believed that the Republicans would blink first, and that they would get all that they wanted.

I think that when McConnell called Biden, he made it clear that this time the Republicans would not blink.

Don’t get me wrong. I think McConnell wanted a deal. But the Republicans were not going to just roll over.

Obama was very pissy yesterday. Not the sign of a man who won.

So, given that a deal was made (and this is Washington, they believe in deals, it’s what they live for), this is a very good deal for the Republicans.

Mr. Arkadin on January 1, 2013 at 3:19 PM

Genuine, you wouldn’t happen to live in Connecticut, would you?

Moose Drool on January 1, 2013 at 3:28 PM

Maybe I am a liberal, as I seem to be one of very few who think this is a pretty good deal, as I understand it.

Bush tax rates now permanent for everyone below $400,000/year single filer. This is a huge win. Republicans can still cut the upper rates later if they have the votes and the public support, but Dems will have a hard time raising taxes on folks later.

Permanent fix on AMT.

True, deal tax goes up by 5 points, but the under 5 million exemption stays in place (Dems wanted it reduced to 1 million).

I always thought the payroll tax holiday was a crude Obama gimmick, so I am not sorry to see that go.

Unemployment benefit extension is not worth fighting about in this economy.

Doc fix is business as usual, and will allow Obamacare to be unmasked as the budget buster it really is. The original CBO score showing Obamacare reducing the budget is based on current law that assumes doc fix will expire and deep cuts will be made to Medicare payments. Never happens, never will.

Debt ceiling and spending cuts decoupled from tax issues. Looking forward to a big fight in a month.

Obama and Harry Reid just kneecapped by McConnell and Biden.

There were two ways for Republicans to deal with the fiscal cliff. Accept that everyone hates the party, go over the cliff, hold strong and refuse to hold any votes, obstruct any votes that would give Democrats a perceived win, and wait for the public tide to turn against the Democrats, which it probably would.

Either that, or make the best deal possible.

I personally was for option 1. My feeling was that, despite the polls, and the Democrats bluster, in the long term going over the cliff would do tremendous damage to the Democrats, and the public figured out what voting for Obama and his program really meant for them.

I think Obama and Reid believed that the Republicans would blink first, and that they would get all that they wanted.

I think that when McConnell called Biden, he made it clear that this time the Republicans would not blink.

Don’t get me wrong. I think McConnell wanted a deal. But the Republicans were not going to just roll over.

Obama was very pissy yesterday. Not the sign of a man who won.

So, given that a deal was made (and this is Washington, they believe in deals, it’s what they live for), this is a very good deal for the Republicans.

Mr. Arkadin

I agree with all of this.

I would have been interested to see what would have happen if we went over the cliff, but the same time, there was no guarantee it would benefit Republicans. Remember what happened in ’94 when the government shut down? It didn’t break our way.

My guess is it would have been a push politically to go over the cliff, with a whole lot of collateral damage. Was it really worth every American paying an income tax to get their taxes raised substantially in the hope Obama would take a 4 point hit in the polls? Most of his base could care less about tax rates.

What this deal does is basically lock in the Bush tax cuts for around 98% of Americans. Considering two terms of Obama and a Democrat Senate, I’d be spitting mad if I was a liberal.

Conservatives need to switch gears now on the tax front and focus on reform instead of just numerically lower rates, as I’d actually like to see a tax increase on the 47%.

BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 3:33 PM

Wake up, people. You’re being fed spin and lies by the HA GOP shills.

Dante on January 1, 2013 at 5:12 PM

Dante on January 1, 2013 at 5:12 PM

lol…there he is!

Happy New Year dante!

Tim_CA on January 1, 2013 at 5:30 PM

I would have been interested to see what would have happen if we went over the cliff, but the same time, there was no guarantee it would benefit Republicans. Remember what happened in ’94 when the government shut down? It didn’t break our way.

My guess is it would have been a push politically to go over the cliff, with a whole lot of collateral damage.

BradTank on January 1, 2013 at 3:33 PM

At first, I liked Rand Paul’s suggestion to have Republicans vote present, but now in hindsight I realize the collateral damage would have been absolutely horrific. Imagine how the LSM would have savaged and lampooned the Republicans for that! I’m glad Boehner and McConnell stayed tough and kept negotiating.

Meantime, conservatives need to get to work in explaining basic economics to our republic.

Burke on January 1, 2013 at 5:45 PM

Wake up, people. You’re being fed spin and lies by the HA GOP shills.

Dante on January 1, 2013 at 5:12 PM

.
My “spins and lies” are very nutritious, and good for you.

listens2glenn on January 1, 2013 at 6:27 PM

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