Uh oh: Maybe Boehner doesn’t have the votes for Plan B after all

posted at 5:11 pm on December 20, 2012 by Allahpundit

I know you guys are bored to tears with fiscal cliff stuff by now, but after weeks of wandering in the news desert, we’ll finally have some suspense tonight. Cantor was talking tough this morning about how they supposedly have the votes. According to The Hill’s whip count, though, there are already 23 Republican defections — and Boehner can only afford 24. They may be lowballing it, too. They’ve got two reps from South Carolina listed as no’s, but there may be more to come:

SC has seven House seats so if Berman’s right then Boehner’s already short on votes with more defections possible before tonight’s vote. (Erick Erickson’s own whip count, taken this morning, pegged the number of GOP no votes at 34.) Some of his opponents are so entrenched, in fact, that they’ve taken to going on MSNBC in order to … convince hardcore liberals that we need to dramatically slash spending, I guess? Anyway. What’s a Speaker whose credibility is on the line to do? Just what you’d expect:

They’re voting on this thing tonight instead of in the afternoon to give Boehner, Cantor, and McCarthy time to twist arms and make threats. What happens if it doesn’t work, though? Will they still hold the vote and risk humiliation, on the theory that even a no vote might put some pressure on Obama to up his offer on spending cuts in order to push more conservatives into the yes column on a grander compromise with the White House? Or will they yank the bill, which would arguably be even more embarrassing?

Ramesh Ponnuru lays out the argument for voting yes, even though he’s not a fan of Plan B in all its particulars:

If it works out, it will go something like this: House Republicans pass Plan B, showing that they are not protecting millionaires, are taking steps to protect the middle class, and have moved on from the extend-all-the-rates position they took during the summer. The onus will then (again, if things work out) be on Senate Democrats to budge too, perhaps by passing a bill that extends tax cuts for everyone making less than $500,000 and limits tax increases on dividends. At that point we would see what Reid could pass, there being some dissension in his own caucus.

Then the stage would be set for a final bill that extends all the tax cuts for everyone making less than, say, $750,000 a year. Some people are asking how a deal can pass the House with a threshold below $1 million if Boehner is having so much trouble getting Republican votes for a bill with that threshold. The hope has to be that a lot of House Democrats—who have not yet had a chance to vote for a bill that extends the middle-class tax cuts—would support a deal, and therefore Boehner wouldn’t have to round up as many conservative votes for it.

Right. If Plan B fails, there are two options left: Some sort of deal with Obama in which Democratic votes replace Republican defectors, or a Republican cave on tax rates under tremendous pressure after we go over the cliff. (If you think an Obama cave is more likely, explain to me why.) But if the bill does fail, why would Obama offer Boehner new concessions and rescue him from a major political embarrassment? A talking point about “obstructionist Republicans” obstructing their own Speaker will have fallen into his lap — and he’s going to give it away by upping his offer in order to strike a deal before New Year’s? Hmmmm.

T-minus three hours and counting. Here’s Boehner at today’s presser summing up the messaging value of Plan B in two blunt sentences. “I did my part. They’ve done nothing.”


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No, they are hypocrites because they rage against tax increases and then sit back and let them happen.

Terrye on December 20, 2012 at 6:00 PM

Stop being an idiot. There are two issues -

1) tax increases

2) class war in the tax schedule

2) is worse than 1). If taxes have to go up then they have to go up on everyone.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM

Oh, and replace Speaker BOHICA with someone that has some testicular fortitude. Preferably a woman. I nominate Mia Love.

Myron Falwell on December 20, 2012 at 5:57 PM

Of course, to be Speaker of the House, you have to be an elected Congressman/woman – but let’s not let that stop us.

CycloneCDB on December 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM

Of course, to be Speaker of the House, you have to be an elected Congressman/woman – but let’s not let that stop us.

CycloneCDB on December 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM

No you don’t. Speaker does not have to be a member of Congress.

Mark1971 on December 20, 2012 at 6:06 PM

Of course, to be Speaker of the House, you have to be an elected Congressman/woman – but let’s not let that stop us.
CycloneCDB on December 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM

Actually you are wrong.

Not that I think that the frat boys would ever allow anyone to infiltrate, but the law says that the SoH does NOT have to be elected.

LegendHasIt on December 20, 2012 at 6:07 PM

Of course, to be Speaker of the House, you have to be an elected Congressman/woman – but let’s not let that stop us.

CycloneCDB on December 20, 2012 at 6:04 PM

Not technically. The Speaker can be anyone – usually every cycle somebody nominates a non-Congressperson as a joke, like Gingrich this year.

But there’s no way on God’s green earth that you’ll get 219 members of Congress to vote for a non-member to be the Speaker.

KingGold on December 20, 2012 at 6:07 PM

You really do live in another world. None of those things are true where I live. Blue america is just getting more blue.

alwaysfiredup on December 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM

And what state would that be? Texas?

Someplace in Dixie that hasn’t been seriously contested by the Democrats since the Goldwater blowout?

Maybe I do live in another world. I actually have to live with, and interact with, a majority non-conservative population. And this would be not New York the city, but Upstate New York, which was swing territory once upon a time.

KingGold on December 20, 2012 at 6:10 PM

I think I’d like to be speaker. I’d take that gavel and…oh, nevermind.

Othniel on December 20, 2012 at 6:10 PM

Thank you for that, I am a second rate citizen in sesquipedalian eyes and am not allowed to voice my opinion since I’m home to see my family in Bratislava and Prague for holiday.

JPeterman on December 20, 2012 at 5:54 PM

i appreciate you sharing your opinion, but wishing to “let it burn” from afar is poor form.

sesquipedalian on December 20, 2012 at 6:10 PM

This guy has to be the worst GOP speaker ever. When this is over I hope he is replaced. If we don’t win the argument on spending, the party is over. What does the GOP stand for?
We can keep running elections on “Obama is bad”, at some point we have to run on our values and principles. Millionaires tax is the wrong way to go period. One minute you are arguing higher taxes on job creators kills the economy and the next you are doing the exact same thing.

celticdefender on December 20, 2012 at 6:12 PM

DeMint is leading this suicide mission? Gee thanks. Remind me to cancel my Heritage Foundation membership when he takes over if this si going to be the result.

Buy Danish on December 20, 2012 at 6:14 PM

i appreciate you sharing your opinion, but wishing to “let it burn” from afar is poor form.

sesquipedalian on December 20, 2012 at 6:10 PM

STFU. You America-haters who want to fundamentally deform this nation (which you already have) have no basis from which to criticize anyone who respects America and what this nation has always stood for.

You idiots voted for an ineligible retard who was raised a muslim in the largest muslim nation in the world to be in the White House so don’t even start with your idiotic bleatings about who has America’s best interests at heart. You are America-haters and we all know it.

Go burn some American flags, dirtball. That’s what you slime love to do.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Let’s also keep in mind that Plan B will keep the $1.2 trillion in spending cuts we got from the last debt ceiling showdown (including $123 billion in entitlements cuts).

By show of hands, who thinks Obama will agree to more cuts if we go over the Fiscal Cliff?

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:15 PM

And this would be not New York the city, but Upstate New York, which was swing territory once upon a time.

KingGold on December 20, 2012 at 6:10 PM

And the South was strong Democrat once. The realignment is almost complete, though not quite. And it puts the northeast, northern midwest and west coast against the mountain west, southern midwest and south. And yes, it’s like a whole other country. I live in the very most blue part of my red state and it’s still not all that blue. You probably have fewer nonliberals around than I. It’s a cultural divide and it’s been with us for some time.

alwaysfiredup on December 20, 2012 at 6:16 PM

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Those aren’t spending cuts. They’re reductions in projected growth.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:17 PM

celticdefender on December 20, 2012 at 6:12 PM

It’s not usually the party leader’s job to be the ideologue. And I know the answer to that is “Nancy Pelosi”, but still.

alwaysfiredup on December 20, 2012 at 6:18 PM

The vote is taking place right now. 67 Republican “Nay” votes and 39 Democrat “Yea” votes so far.

Naturally Curly on December 20, 2012 at 6:18 PM

My apopogies. I assumed he errantly thought Love won her election. Shame on me. (Seriously – I apologize.)

Of course, two things immediately come to mind:

1) Like the DC GOP would ever allow a TrueCon plebe to lead them and

2) Putting someone in leadership that cannot win a House race in a reliably red state…

I get your drift – but this is still politics.

CycloneCDB on December 20, 2012 at 6:18 PM

STFU.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:15 PM

sssh, i’m trying to sweet talk him into bringing me some slivovica and deli bars.

sesquipedalian on December 20, 2012 at 6:18 PM

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Further, those alleged reductions in growth still include the Porkulus in the baseline.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:19 PM

Fine, but you didn’t answer my question…do you think we can get anything more out of Obama if we go over the cliff?

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:19 PM

Terrye on December 20, 2012 at 5:55 PM

Well, excuse me for my earlier mini-rant against RINOs. It appears you didn’t like that, but then had your own conservative tantrum. You can throw your Akin comments my way, but they miss the mark. I don’t care for infighting, but…
Are you pleased with the weakness of the GOP? I don’t see any fight in them. I’d like to see conservative pols take some interest in the people and not political points. I’d rather see a united party pursuing conservative principles.

freedomfirst on December 20, 2012 at 6:20 PM

Fine, but you didn’t answer my question…do you think we can get anything more out of Obama if we go over the cliff?

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:19 PM

They didn’t get ANYTHING to begin with.

They are spending more money regardless, and actual cuts aren’t even on the table.

sharrukin on December 20, 2012 at 6:21 PM

Fine, but you didn’t answer my question…do you think we can get anything more out of Obama if we go over the cliff?

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:19 PM

You can’t get anything out of Barky. He doesn’t negotiate in good faith. There’s no sense trying to treat the POLS as if he were a civilized person. The House needs to pass its own bill with exactly what it wants (and consistent with the consrvative principles they all ran on) and let Hairy Reed and Barky kill it and put the Sequester (that they all signed onto and that Boner helped fashion, to begin with) into action.

Trying to “negotiate” with Barky as if he had any integrity is as fruitless and stupid a pursuit as trying to negotiate with arabs. It’s a different culture and they just don’t see contracts or honesty the same way that Westerners do.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:22 PM

Fine, but you didn’t answer my question…do you think we can get anything more out of Obama if we go over the cliff?

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:19 PM

We aren’t getting anything in the first place, except snookered. R’s are strengthening their own position of weakness.

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 6:25 PM

Let it frigging burn! The sooner the better. The fiscal cliff is unavoidable…46% of every dollar being spent by our government is borrowed. It is unsustainable. Lets go over the cliff, take out the garbage and start anew (with way fewer commie libs around…).

Doomsday on December 20, 2012 at 6:26 PM

Oh, and replace Speaker BOHICA with someone that has some testicular fortitude. Preferably a woman. I nominate Mia Love.

Myron Falwell on December 20, 2012 at 5:57 PM

Oh spare me.
Ted Nugent!

Mr. Arrogant on December 20, 2012 at 6:28 PM

Fine, but you didn’t answer my question…do you think we can get anything more out of Obama if we go over the cliff?

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:19 PM

If we go over the cliff, all the GOP has to do is pass a bill on January 2nd that makes lower and middle class tax cuts permanent and let the Democrats choke on it. All these plans are for one year extensions.

Chuck Schick on December 20, 2012 at 6:29 PM

All Americans need to feel the pain of sacrifice. It’s the only way there is even a remote chance of a lesson learned. People are just so stupid. Half of them anyway.

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 6:30 PM

[Mittens] outperformed nearly all statewide candidates in November

KingGold on December 20, 2012 at 5:45 PM

How’s that workin’ out for ya…?

Let. It. Burn.

Kent18 on December 20, 2012 at 6:30 PM

This guy has to be the worst GOP speaker ever.

celticdefender on December 20, 2012 at 6:12 PM

I see your Boehner and raise you a Hasstert.

Mr. Arrogant on December 20, 2012 at 6:30 PM

i appreciate you sharing your opinion, but wishing to “let it burn” from afar is poor form.

sesquipedalian on December 20, 2012 at 6:10 PM

Too bad, I find it in bad form that you feel it necessary to spew your liberal crap on a conservative blog. All of Eastern Europe laughs at you and your Messiah.

Let. It. Burn.

JPeterman on December 20, 2012 at 6:33 PM

If the American people want the spending, the American people get the taxes. Go over the cliff.

EddieC on December 20, 2012 at 5:42 PM

This. Reasoning hasn’t worked with the electorate; time to switch to aversion therapy.

Kent18 on December 20, 2012 at 6:33 PM

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:22 PM

That’s the problem, and why Plan B is actually the best political move possible at this time.

If we pass the bill you suggest, it won’t even come to a vote in the Senate, we go over the cliff, taxes go up on everyone and conservatives get blamed for not caring about the middle class enough to make a “balance” deal.

Then, they get to introduce tax cuts for the middle class and tout themselves as the tax cutters, while the mean old Republicans let everone’s taxes go up. Of cousre this happens about the time of the debt ceiling negotiations, so we’re in an even worse spot, and probaly have to concede more.

By passing Plan B, Obama’s biggest bargaining chip is taken off the table, puttin conservatives in a much better position to demand real cuts in exchange for a debt ceiling increase…or no increase at all.

We’re thinking about the next move (more like what the last move should have looked like), rather than focusing on 2-3 moves ahead on the chess board.

This is why conservatives get shellacked in the medai, and lose elections. We don’t think ahead, and we don’t present a united front on something this simple. We could learn a few things from the Democrats (unfortunately) on that.

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:35 PM

By passing Plan B, Obama’s biggest bargaining chip is taken off the table, puttin conservatives in a much better position to demand real cuts in exchange for a debt ceiling increase…or no increase at all.
right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:35 PM

Exactamundo.

Buy Danish on December 20, 2012 at 6:39 PM

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:35 PM

There are no “tax cuts” in this bill. No one is talking about any sort of “tax cuts”. The Bush tax rates have been the rates for a decade. A huge section of the working public has never known any other tax rates.

What this is all about, now, are TAX HIKES, and hiking taxes on the upper brackets is wrong. If there are to be tax hikes, then they need to be hiked for everyone. Class war is not the way to go and I would never be party to participating in such a war.

You guys do what you want. You’ll have to find some illegal whose vote will replace mine in the next elections, though, because I’m done with the GOP. Rubio’s working on that, I guess. Good luck.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:39 PM

I’m with Ace.

Let. It. Burn.

Or second look at SMOD for tomorrow Mayan thingy?

2lbsTest on December 20, 2012 at 6:40 PM

I’m with Ace.

Don’t forget the personal lubricant.

Mr. Arrogant on December 20, 2012 at 6:41 PM

Oh the MSM is frightful but the fire is so delightful and since we’ve no where to go LIB, LIB, LIB…All together now!

bluesdoc70 on December 20, 2012 at 6:42 PM

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:35 PM

I don’t think 2 or 3 moves ahead is enough. We are not dealing with a smart electorate, as has been proved to us over and over again. Your standard only applies to our way of interpreting events. Not theirs. Theirs is the side winning. What did they win with? Exactly. We cannot match them. We have to let them own this. Otherwise we own it .

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 6:44 PM

I don’t know why some (R)’s are acting as bastions of fiscal conservatism on this issue when you know they will fold like a cheap umbrella post-fiscal cliff. When the media starts screaming like howler monkeys about how Republicans hate America they will rush in and make some terrible deal. Why wait until the last minute when some increases are inevitable. This is a slightly palpable bargaining maneuver.

No way will a politician “let it burn”. Why? Because his job is inside the house people propose we burn down. They are, above all else, self-interested narcissists.

Encarn on December 20, 2012 at 6:49 PM

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Thanks.

Anyone know if they started voting yet?

JPeterman on December 20, 2012 at 6:50 PM

If we lose the perception of being the side that holds the line on taxing. They will counter, the media will cover, no one cares about spending, except us. Their side and its supporters only care to spend more. The problem for us is, we think logically. The other side doesn’t

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 6:50 PM

You guys do what you want. You’ll have to find some illegal whose vote will replace mine in the next elections, though, because I’m done with the GOP. Rubio’s working on that, I guess. Good luck.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Make that 2 illegals… Or 1 illegal + 1 dead voter.

I am not having any more part of this crap where Republicans have to act like Democrats because (insert lame excuse here).

Varchild on December 20, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Exactamundo.

Buy Danish on December 20, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Hey, the Fonz is in the house!

freedomfirst on December 20, 2012 at 6:55 PM

I think we should consider the reality of the situation. A “majority” (voting anyway) of Americans want free stuff without cuts? I say we send them the bill. Raise everyone’s taxes.

Nothing like diminished checking and savings accounts, tight Christmases with no room for spending indulgences to turn the bluest Democrat and Indie into a red-ribbed Republican.

Make them pay for the stuff they want and wish to give away.

Encarn on December 20, 2012 at 6:56 PM

I don’t think 2 or 3 moves ahead is enough. We are not dealing with a smart electorate, as has been proved to us over and over again. Your standard only applies to our way of interpreting events. Not theirs. Theirs is the side winning. What did they win with? Exactly. We cannot match them. We have to let them own this. Otherwise we own it .

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 6:44 PM

The problem as I see it, is that with the Obama Cult and Pravda media, the ownership will be placed squarley on conservatives, and the electorate will believe it. It’ll just be a magnitude worse if we go over the cliff.

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:58 PM

Also, if Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Van Hollen, Wassername – Schultz are all so vocally opposed to it, it can’t be all that bad?

They know it undercuts them politically – they’re scared.

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 7:03 PM

Oh, and replace Speaker BOHICA with someone that has some testicular fortitude. Preferably a woman. I nominate Mia Love.

Myron Falwell on December 20, 2012 at 5:57 PM

Oh spare me.
Ted Nugent!

Mr. Arrogant on December 20, 2012 at 6:28 PM

Well, considering that Rasputin is somewhat dead and all that, Mia was my best possible choice among the living. Lol.

Ted is a damn good second option. If not just for the sight of Michael Moore turn his head around 360 degrees and spit out pea soup.

Myron Falwell on December 20, 2012 at 7:03 PM

No, they are hypocrites because they rage against tax increases and then sit back and let them happen.

Terrye on December 20, 2012 at 6:00 PM

Stop being an idiot. There are two issues -

1) tax increases

2) class war in the tax schedule

2) is worse than 1). If taxes have to go up then they have to go up on everyone.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on December 20, 2012 at 6:03 PM

Idiot? You need a mirror. Plan B is not going to pass in the Senate. It has symbolic and propaganda value only. Firstly, it removes Obama’s claim that Republicans are so intent on protecting the rich they are prepared to have tax rates increase for everyone else.

Secondly, it enables Republicans to blame Obama for the increased tax rates on everyone when the Bush tax cuts expire – with the kicker that so anxious was Obama to wage class warfare on the 2% that he allowed tax rates to go up on everyone else and allowed the country to go over the fiscal cliff and into recession.

Boehner is playing his cards very well and as an added bonus hasn’t once cried while doing so.

Basilsbest on December 20, 2012 at 7:04 PM

The problem as I see it, is that with the Obama Cult and Pravda media, the ownership will be placed squarley on conservatives, and the electorate will believe it. It’ll just be a magnitude worse if we go over the cliff.

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:58 PM

I was saying to friends the other night that they should just pass tax hikes on $1 million since Obama says “millionaires and billionaires” ad nauseum. The problem is if they can’t even get the party to go along with that, they’re screwed.

But I don’t think this will affect the GOP much in 2 years. 2013 will be all about ObamaCare taxes and slashing Medicare. 2014 will be all about people having their paycheck contributions jack up and/or being thrown into the exchanges that look like they’ll be a total clusterfark. I think this whole thing will be a distant memory after that.

Chuck Schick on December 20, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Exactly, Plan B is a shrewd move from the House GOP. Among other attributes it ships the slop over to Reid. The Senate is totally dysfunctional.

matthew8787 on December 20, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Well, now that Plan B passed, will Boehner find the testicular fortitude to lob in a nice recess until, say, June? Certainly some date well after the debt limit will be reached….

cthulhu on December 20, 2012 at 7:17 PM

i appreciate you sharing your opinion, but wishing to “let it burn” from afar is poor form.

sesquipedalian on December 20, 2012 at 6:10 PM


Oops!

Left one out …

Reading comprehension – trolls are ignorant of the fact that citizenship entitles one to more than just an opinion regardless of geographic location at any given point in time.

PolAgnostic on December 20, 2012 at 7:25 PM

Fix (as in get rid of) the AMT separately.

No matter what else happens, the GOP will be painted with the media tar brush.

Might as well get something out of it. The Dems won’t want to be blamed for holding up everyone’s refund. Fix permanently the AMT by sending it to the trash heap in a separate bill, then go public with exactly what it is and what voting against it will mean.

The rest is going to be a cluster**** no matter.

hillbillyjim on December 20, 2012 at 7:27 PM

The talking points machine must be in high gear; sesquipicesspool has made an appearance.

hillbillyjim on December 20, 2012 at 7:30 PM

right of the dial on December 20, 2012 at 6:58 PM

R’s will catch the blame, let’s say that is true. Isn’t it true the R’s catch the blame either way? Yes, they will. So with blame pre assigned to the R’s regardless. Wouldn’t it make sense to at least get some cuts with leverage intact on debt ceiling negotiations. We are’nt getting cuts any other way. I’ll go for the cuts and take a chance on where the blame ends up falling. We can’t and shouldn’t concede our identity to them one bit. It’s win win for their side, may as well get the cuts. Taxes are going up either way. R’s will have blame either way. No one will get credit for cuts, cause no one cares about cuts.

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 7:50 PM

The disconnect most seem to be making a mistake with is that R’s get any upside credit for anything. They won’t. The other side doesn’t think the way you do.

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 7:52 PM

Too late now, the hand is played, the corner is……………………….

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 7:54 PM

You idiots need to quit treating Republicans as your football team. There is no way the MSM will give them credit for anything – only blame. This is the time where they should have stood on principle and demanded spending cuts as well as extending the current tax rates. Let them get blamed (they will get blamed anyhow and the morons will believe anything that their cult leader and the MSM feeds them). If this Party isn’t purged of RINO’s and “conservatives” who are afraid of their shadows, then I say good riddance to all of them. I will vote for a third Party with cajones to do what is necessary.

Decoski on December 20, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Decoski on December 20, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Well said.

hillbillyjim on December 20, 2012 at 8:07 PM

How about Plan D? Dump Boehner.

What has he accomplished in the last two years?

MitchFlorida on December 20, 2012 at 9:18 PM

What has [Boehner] accomplished in the last two years?

MitchFlorida on December 20, 2012 at 9:18 PM

As Obama’s favorite go-to pet “conservative,” you mean? Only everything he’s ever set out to do.

Kent18 on December 20, 2012 at 9:52 PM

…p r e s e n t…!

KOOLAID2 on December 20, 2012 at 10:00 PM

Maybe we could step back away from this for just a second and examine the optics. Not always use our optics to view these things through. Ask yourself this. What does 0 and the Dims want? What are they willing to do to get it? What does it have to do with the best interest of the American people? Now if you have reached the same conclusion that I do. You will notice that there is absolutely no reason to help them. So why are we so willing to? Folks when you are in the fight for your life, don’t give any assistance to your enemy to help accomplish your own undoing.

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 10:47 PM

does=do

Bmore on December 20, 2012 at 10:50 PM

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