It is the recognition that we are all fallen human beings,

but the Utopians do not believe this

Good and evil is identified by the degree to which any person professes Utopian principles. Only dissenters are fallen

This is the reason there is no dialogue. There is no common ground

The Pope tried to set up a dialogue with the muslim world, on the basis that we can agree everyman shares an intrinsic understanding of good and evil, regardless of religion, and from that commonality we can move forward. He was repeatedly answered with the reply that we can all agree there is one god and mohammed is his prophet.

Utopians also find no commonality with those who do not espouse first order Utopian truths, such as, every man has a right to a job

So what would be called a second order directive in Western civilization, would be called a prime truth in Utopia. Thus every man must be provided with a job, before we worry about private property rights which in Utopia are secondary to the prime directives

Humility is not humiliation, and humility is not powerlessness.

Humility doesn’t mean thinking less of yourself; it means thinking of yourself less.

If “humility” was the true goal here, then ban all of your most frequent commenters.

lostmotherland on December 18, 2012 at 12:04 PM

Sanctimonious leftists always believe in tyranny and restriction of speech. May you never live free, never. You don’t deserve it.

give it up. You’ve created the ultimate cess pit of “sanctimony and arrogance” here at Hot Air, where rightists come to beat their white sunken chests and proclaim how much better and more self righteous they are than liberals. Ugh. Talk about hypocrisy. If “humility” was the true goal here, then ban all of your most frequent commenters.

lostmotherland on December 18, 2012 at 12:04 PM

If I may ask, are you African-American?

Are you willing to give a limited set of unaccountable people–whether experts in their field or not–power over whether you can live a free life?

Scott H on December 18, 2012 at 1:36 PM

Hey if it’s good enough for Obama’s death panels, it should be good enough for homosexuals! Right?

Fact of the matter is that we are already beyond that point with this administration. All the real decisions and power is in the West Wing through unelected (and unconfirmable) radicals who only answer to the rat-eared wonder.

For any liberals in the crowd, substitute homosexuality for conservatism, same question.

Are you willing to give a limited set of unaccountable people–whether experts in their field or not–power over whether you can live a free life?

…how do you treat an entire city? To a certain extent I think as a nation we are all suffering from a type of mental illness. It has manifested itself in many ways among them the decline in traditional values, the political polarization, and the fact we only react to violence in cases like Newtown or Aurora and not when that violence occurs in ones and twos over any given weekend in any given city. How do you treat a nation for mental illness.

Happy Nomad on December 18, 2012 at 12:44 PM

I agree that the increased denigration of and suppression of the sharing of Christian theology and beliefs – including organizations that are sponsored by such but are being held to task to cease associating with such – is part of the problem.

Scouting, for example, helped many a young person for decades but the marring of that org. continues. Same with ROTC in higher education combined with the replacement of “real” social relationships like that with the artificial realm of violent media.

And increasingly urban environments and overcrowding, limiting resources for all and confining more of us with every generation.

There’s a lot to be said for being raised in rural areas and small towns, kids grow up with more adults available to them on ratio in a population, for starters, and learn a great deal about empathy and socialization from agricultural activities. Urban lifestyles eliminate so much from what many of us need as to being able to relax and relate well to others.

…treating these types of patients. But when I said “Really?”, he made a gun with his index finger and held it to his head.

So yes, perhaps we have reached that point.

lovesthesun on December 18, 2012 at 1:11 PM

UNFORTUNATELY, anyone who indicates they’re suicidal is also indicating they’re violent, meaning, posing a potential to harm themselves…AND/OR OTHERS.

So it’s not just a case of them ending their own lives, it’s also a concern of them harming others.

They lack a conscience and no amount of pharmaceuticals or interventions will change that. The only protection from them is permanent involuntary institutionalization. Are we ready to go in that direction?

chemman on December 18, 2012 at 11:43 AM

I was talking with my brother-in-law, who is a psychiatrist, about this very topic. His comment was that the only thing they know that helps these people is “lead therapy”. Since lead poisoning can affect the nervous system I thought that perhaps there was some innovative use of lead in treating these types of patients. But when I said “Really?”, he made a gun with his index finger and held it to his head.

So yes, perhaps we have reached that point.

lovesthesun on December 18, 2012 at 1:11 PM

Antipsychotic meds help many who suffer from a psychosis such as Manic Depression and sometimes, Schizophrenia. People often have what’s called “a dual diagnosis” with both those conditions simultaneously, and they can be managed with medications, as long as they continue under medical supervision.

It’s tough, I realize. It’s the people who never are in contact with physicians in these regards who are the biggest concern.

This guy in Connecticut, from what I’ve heard, had a lot of EXTREMELY CARING, CONSCIENTIOUS attention from adults but it looks like he never got in contact with a physician who was able to diagnose the guy’s mental issues properly if at all. Or so I’m assuming from the little I’ve read so far about the guy.

…about a problem that existed in some areas of game reserves in Africa, how it was that endangered Rhinos where found dead or dying with big wounds in their sides and the game wardens were perplexed how they became wounded so terribly. The wounds were too radical to be from other Rhinoceros and they didn’t match any tooth or claw marks by other predators.

Eventually, it was discovered that adolescent male elephants were roaming around assaulting Rhinos with tree limbs the elephants picked up and used as battering-weapons against the Rhinos, the adolescent male elephants roaming around in groups too old to be tolerated by their mothers in the elephant herds and too young to be out on their own as isolated male, adult elephants.

So these adolescent male elephants were acting-out in needless, gratuitous violence against Rhinos who had become their chosen victims: smaller and with poor eyesight and easily victimized by adolescent male elephants who pierced the Rhinos’ sides with large trees held in their trunks.

THE SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM (a behavioral problem by adolescent male elephants) was to introduce ONE ADULT MALE ELEPHANT per “range” or area of elephant populations.

ALL that had to be done was to leave ONE ADULT MALE ELEPHANT in the range area and the adolescent male elephants soon stopped their raging, aware that the male elephant in their neighborhood would retaliate against the adolescents if they continued to act-out as they had been violently.

I think our growing population’s problem of violence and mental health problems has to do, somewhat if not a lot, with the “male role model” of behavior that males today are limited to or even missing.

I absolutely reject the idea that Christ was a cat person!

Happy Nomad on December 18, 2012 at 12:31 PM

WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF I agree! – 22044′s dog

Just kidding, I don’t own a dog. :)

They lack a conscience and no amount of pharmaceuticals or interventions will change that. The only protection from them is permanent involuntary institutionalization. Are we ready to go in that direction?

chemman on December 18, 2012 at 11:43 AM

I was talking with my brother-in-law, who is a psychiatrist, about this very topic. His comment was that the only thing they know that helps these people is “lead therapy”. Since lead poisoning can affect the nervous system I thought that perhaps there was some innovative use of lead in treating these types of patients. But when I said “Really?”, he made a gun with his index finger and held it to his head.

So yes, perhaps we have reached that point.

Your phrase “we can’t impose by power a Utopia” struck a nerve with me.

I’ve spent a lot of time reading George Orwell lately. Somehow the wisdom in his words speak more an more to me. While he was no Christian and no capitalist, he was importantly an anti-utopianist. He did not believe in the attainment of perfect through socialist concepts. Furthermore movements such as the progressive/liberal/whatever have in the subjugation of rights for the attainment of a Utopian dream would certainly have disturbed him.

I think the movement’s force now is lead by those who really, seriously, think that through some force of will we can bend individuals minds and create a “perfect” society, in which no one hurts anyone, no one dies, and every does exactly what is expected in them.

Some where Eric Arthur Blair rolls in his grave.

Happy Nomad on December 18, 2012 at 12:44 PM

I COMPLETELY AGREE that the deeds done in Newtown were “evil” — “an evil act” as you write. I completely agree with that.

And I’m the last person who needs evidence that evil exists in this world and that some people are motivated by it with little saving grace or appeal to change…I’ve seen it, I’ve witnessed it, believe me, short of naming names, which I won’t do on the internet, I’ve seen people who are motivated by, “possessed by” evil, to use a Biblical term.

I’m only saying that referring from a problem-solving or solution-finding frame of reference to this shooter in Newtown as “evil” satisfies a more profound defintion of the deed and what motivated him but it doesn’t do anything (if not is also counter-productive) to continue to refer to him and his (yes, evil) deeds as “evil” and to avoid trying to understand and then to treat what the mental complications involved were.

I don’t know the answer, I’m not a physician, but our nation does have a budding if not an erupted problem today of — especially evident in — disturbed teen or young adult males who are resorting to violence against others, against society. Guns aren’t the problem, their state of mind is and that’s my point: we must address the causes and the conditions present in this segment of society who is acting out so desperately and hatefully (and violently) against others.

WE can discuss it from a theological perspective and it’s right and good that we do, but the issue of functionality is something that needs to be addressed more broadly.

I guess on a “government” level — as to all this talk among politicos about “government solutions” and all that after Newtown — it seems that the dangerous condition today is in the mental health area, not in the area of tools such as “guns” or whatever else as to tools a mentally disturbed person would and does use when they’re acting out.

Fallon on December 18, 2012 at 12:48 PM

; )

Should confuse the heck out of Allah. Lol!

Bmore on December 18, 2012 at 12:34 PM

Oh dear, I should have read the next post. Bmore… we’re mind melding again.

I absolutely reject the idea that Christ was a cat person!

Happy Nomad on December 18, 2012 at 12:31 PM

Your choice, but, maybe, Allahpundit would find it… amusing?

It’s not solving anything to refer to mentally ill persons as “evil” because, well, perhaps ALL illness, sickness, lies, all of that ARE evil but it doesn’t help those suffering from mental illness — or evil — to ignore it or worse, to ridicule them.

Lourdes on December 18, 2012 at 12:31 PM

The slayings in Newtown were an evil act. And I’m on the fence as to whether or not the shooter was evil. I get your point but at the same time there are plenty of individuals suffering from mental illness who DO NOT shoot their mom in the face and then drive over to the local school to shoot 26 others.

I was living in New Orleans after Katrina. Relevant to this discussion, it was an interesting experience because literally the entire city was suffering from mental health issues. Some were able to handle it better than others but how do you treat an entire city? To a certain extent I think as a nation we are all suffering from a type of mental illness. It has manifested itself in many ways among them the decline in traditional values, the political polarization, and the fact we only react to violence in cases like Newtown or Aurora and not when that violence occurs in ones and twos over any given weekend in any given city. How do you treat a nation for mental illness.

Because you–we, me–find it easier to lump people into rigid categories. ‘Conservative.’ ‘Liberal.’ Aided of course by the anonymity of the internet.

lostmotherland on December 18, 2012 at 12:06 PM

We were touching upon this last week before all hell broke loose in Newtown, CT.
I think the discussion was that Republicans should begin to engage more in “Identity Politics” to compete more effectively with the Democrats WHO ALREADY ARE DOING IT.

If we here are are “lumping people into rigid catagories” we are only following that which has been proven effective.

Happy Nomad on December 18, 2012 at 12:31 PM

Should confuse the heck out of Allah. Lol!

Fallon on December 18, 2012 at 12:18 PM

I absolutely reject the idea that Christ was a cat person!

I’d encourage us all to focus on how to solve this current dreadful trend of mentally ill people, mostly young adult or teen males, who are acting out as they are, so violently against others.

It’s not solving anything to refer to mentally ill persons as “evil” because, well, perhaps ALL illness, sickness, lies, all of that ARE evil but it doesn’t help those suffering from mental illness — or evil — to ignore it or worse, to ridicule them.

In the case of this young man responsible in Newtown, it sounds as if he was given a huuuge amount of extra caring helps and attention in sensitivity to HIS sensitivity, while no one expected him to act out so violently.

Perhaps it’s his now-also-deceased mother who was aware that he WAS acting out violently (the video gaming activities, particularly, which she surely was aware of) and was desensitized to the violence herself, to her own ruin.

We as a nation have to address mental health conditions.