A second mass shooting avoided on Friday

posted at 7:01 pm on December 15, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

It looks like there might be one bit of good news from yesterday, if such is even possible. Police in Oklahoma are indicating that there was a second mass shooting in a school planned there for the same day, but sharp police work thwarted it before it got off the ground.

BARTLESVILLE, Okla. – A Bartlesville High School student is in custody on charges he plotted to bomb and shoot students at the campus auditorium on the same day that 28 people were shot and killed at an elementary school in Connecticut.

Police arrested 18-year-old Sammie Eaglebear Chavez at about 4:30 a.m. Friday after learning of the alleged plot Thursday.

An arrest affidavit says Chavez tried to convince other students to help him lure students into the auditorium, chain the doors shut and start shooting. The Tulsa World reports that authorities say Chavez threatened to kill students who didn’t help.

Chavez is currently being held on $1M bail.

This is a reminder of something else which I believe is important to keep in mind. Something unimaginably awful happened yesterday in Connecticut. But something every bit as awful didn’t happen in Oklahoma at the same time. And it didn’t happen because people spoke up and police did their jobs. That one statement contains two different elements, both of which are worth remembering as the media rushes to push for more gun control laws.

First of all, for any given incident where some madman runs amok with a gun, there is an entire nation of well over 300 million people – each with their own share of potential madmen – where nothing goes wrong. I could expand on that point for hundreds of words, but it seems obvious enough for any rational thinker to grasp.

Second, and perhaps more to the point, there are differences between the two states in question. Connecticut, as I pointed out earlier today, has some of the toughest gun control laws in the nation. Oklahoma has traditionally been fairly protective of 2nd amendment rights and just last month passed a new open carry law. Both of them were clearly under the threat of horrific assault by a madman. So it’s difficult to pose the argument that the deranged are more or less likely to be found in one state or another based solely on their gun laws.

The last point this brings up, though, has to do with community. If there is any remedy to be found to these events, it’s not through legislation or restricting the tools (read: guns in these cases) used by madmen. It’s the rebuilding of a sense of community and responsibility to each other.. a shared sense of decency being passed down to each generation. When that collapses, the entire system is weakened. The government is, in reality, very limited in their ability to protect us if responsible citizens are not engaged in the duty to protect and defend ourselves. And that includes speaking up when we learn that somebody is even considering doing something like this. That worked in Oklahoma by all accounts. It somehow failed to work in Connecticut. This is a time for all of us to pull together and hopefully remember that we are stronger and safer when we stand up together and look out for one another.


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Old/busted:
 

It’s pathetic–but sadly par for the course–that Ed tries to score political points on the backs of slaughtered children:
 
lostmotherland on May 29, 2012 at 11:17 AM

why, if it isn’t Hot Air’s resident Islamophobe. I hear your ‘movie’ caused quite a stir the other day.
 
lostmotherland on September 13, 2012 at 6:28

Jesus saves…..St. Peter scores on the rebound.
 
lostmotherland on April 9, 2012 at 5:48 PM

Right-wing douchery, as usual.

lostmotherland on September 13, 2012 at 9:56 AM

Class warfare is exactly what Romney will wage if he gets elected.
 
lostmotherland on October 17, 2012 at 11:41 AM

Which SS regiment were you in in a past life, JohnGalt23?
 
lostmotherland on September 18, 2012 at 3:35 PM

 
New hotness:
 

Good luck creating that with the hateful spew on this site. “Takers,” “moochers,” “libtards,” “communists” etc etc.
 
lostmotherland on December 15, 2012 at 7:19 PM

rogerb on December 15, 2012 at 9:08 PM

Clackamas man, armed, confronts mall shooter
http://www.nwcn.com/news/oregon/183609901.html

“I heard three shots and turned and looked at Casey and said, ‘are you serious?’”

The friend and baby hit the floor. Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.

The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.

“As I was going down to pull I saw someone in the back of the charlotte move and I knew if I fired and missed I could hit them.”

Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.

“I’m not beating myself up cause I didn’t shoot him,” said Meli. “I know after he saw me I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself.”

Could it be that a gun in the hands of an individual halted that attack in the mall?

Could it also be that since it didn’t fit the BSM gun grabbing narrative, no one is talking about it?

Galt2009 on December 15, 2012 at 9:14 PM

Really? The guy had a bullet proof vest and a high power rifle. What chance would a teacher have armed with a handgun against this kind of killer?

Should our schools be like armed camps with teachers fully kitted out and trained like SWAT squads?

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 7:31 PM

Uhhhh….aim for his head? No bullet proof nothin there. High powered rifle was found in the car…and yes, arm and train our teachers like they do in Israel…..dang right, we’re talking about our kids here…..*ugh* In other words, whatever it takes….oh wait a minute….we have jugears as present….never mind….

sicoit on December 15, 2012 at 7:37 PM

Bullets don’t just bounce off bulletproof vests. If a teacher had been armed and engaged the attacker he would in all likelihood have never reached the children’s classroom.

sharrukin on December 15, 2012 at 7:33 PM

And a shot to the head, or a taking out of the legs with a scatter gun would have ended this disaster quickly.

predator on December 15, 2012 at 7:38 PM

Squishy lexham made to look like the idiot we all knew he was.

Lexham you’re just another puke. Not much better than our trolls.

CW on December 15, 2012 at 7:44 PM

All decent points save for CW’s. But I can tell you that even well trained soldiers would have trouble getting a head shot in their first combat. Law enforcement data on hit percentage in real situations where firearms are used is illustrative. I am pretty sure that armed civilians would have the same problem. You can have excellent marksmanship at a range but it’s an entirely different matter when facing someone shooting at you and especially if you are outgunned or taken by surprise.

Sicoit, the majority of casualties were caused by a high powered rifle according to the ME. Earlier reports that he entered the building armed only with handguns were incorrect. Reports that he had tactical armor may also be incorrect as I think another poster mentioned.

I don’t think arming teachers is a good idea. I’m open to the notion that this event might not have been as bad had all the teachers been armed but arming teachers means more kids being around guns and many more kids are killed in accidents handling firearms than are killed in situations like the one in Newtown. I think you would end up with more injured and dead kids than kids saved from mass killing events.

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM

They have a point, it wasn’t but a few weeks ago that Chicago had 10 shootings in one day; seems Preznit couldn’t rouse himself to issue a tearful statement to the nation.

Bishop on December 15, 2012 at 9:05 PM

Pffftttt, that’s nuttin, just this past Friday they had 14 killed in Chitcago….each week, the numbers increase….imagine that. You go Rahm! POS

sicoit on December 15, 2012 at 9:17 PM

But I can tell you that even well trained soldiers would have trouble getting a head shot in their first combat.

You don’t need a head shot.

A shot to the chest will do just fine. Even if he isn’t dead, he also isn’t going to that classroom.

You can have excellent marksmanship at a range but it’s an entirely different matter when facing someone shooting at you and especially if you are outgunned or taken by surprise.

And that applies to the killer as well doesn’t it? A few shots in his direction and even if you don’t hit him…he isn’t going to that classroom.

I think you would end up with more injured and dead kids than kids saved from mass killing events.

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM

There are 270 million firearms in the United States. 182 children died from accidental shootings in 2003.

sharrukin on December 15, 2012 at 9:38 PM

All decent points save for CW’s. But I can tell you that even well trained soldiers would have trouble getting a head shot in their first combat. Law enforcement data on hit percentage in real situations where firearms are used is illustrative. I am pretty sure that armed civilians would have the same problem. You can have excellent marksmanship at a range but it’s an entirely different matter when facing someone shooting at you and especially if you are outgunned or taken by surprise.

Some sweeping generalizations there that seem to hang off of vague ‘law enforcement data’.

Sicoit, the majority of casualties were caused by a high powered rifle

I’d love someone, preferably from your source NBC, to explain to us what a ‘high-powered’ rifle is. Presumably there are medium and low powered rifles? Can we have a list of calibers and loads?

Reports that he had tactical armor may also be incorrect as I think another poster mentioned.

While you’re at it can you and NBC define what ‘tactical armor’ means to you?

I don’t think arming teachers is a good idea.

Neither is watching NBC.

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM

CorporatePiggy on December 15, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Shots fired at Fashion Island; lockdown in effect
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/12/shots-fired-at-fashion-island-mall-lockdown-in-place.html

Maybe in addition to fixing the culture wrought by our friends on the Left, we should also do something about the Bull Stream Media glorifying these mass shooters to further their gun grabbing agenda.

Has anyone noticed that it always seems like we end of having a series of copycat incidents after the BSM goes all hog wild on the murderer mania?

Galt2009 on December 15, 2012 at 9:57 PM

Interesting article about mass killers and armed resistance:

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-killers-meet-armed-resistance.html

As my name implies, I’m from Chicago. Last year there were over 260 children killed by guns. That’s over 20 A MONTH (averaged). Most of these children were killed by illegal guns and by people who will never follow any silly gun control laws. After all, we are one of the strictest gun control cities and we have the one of the highest murder rates.

Chitownmom on December 15, 2012 at 10:04 PM

I don’t think arming teachers is a good idea. I’m open to the notion that this event might not have been as bad had all the teachers been armed but arming teachers means more kids being around guns

How you go from that statement

to this

and many more kids are killed in accidents handling firearms than are killed in situations like the one in Newtown. I think you would end up with more injured and dead kids than kids saved from mass killing events.

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 9:15 PM

defies all logic. What, if teachers are armed, somehow those firearms will levitate themselves from the teacher’s holsters into the hands of the children to play with and handle?

You libs are just freakin’ idiots.

AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 10:09 PM

What, if teachers are armed, somehow those firearms will levitate themselves from the teacher’s holsters into the hands of the children to play with and handle?
 
AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 10:09 PM

 
We trust teachers to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic to our children. We trust them alone, sometimes on trips, and we trust them not to sexually abuse our kids. We trust they won’t teach them bad words, bad habits, or bad morals. We trust them on so many levels.
 
We pay them differently from other state and county employees. We give them special perks and different retirement plans. We are continually told we must do this because of the trust we have in their abilities and our desire to retain such steady and capable minds. The best and the brightest.
 
But if 10% of the teachers want to keep a gun in the glove compartment of their car then they’re suddenly the most untrustworthy, clumsy, prone-to-violence, idiots to ever stumble over a crosswalk.
 
Square that circle.

rogerb on December 15, 2012 at 10:38 PM

CorporatePiggy on December 15, 2012 at 9:41 PM

The law enforcement data wasn’t vague. It was pretty specific.

A high powered rifle is a competition class with specific weapons. I have one (a ’53 M1).

There are 270 million firearms in the United States. 182 children died from accidental shootings in 2003.

sharrukin on December 15, 2012 at 9:38 PM

You don’t think arming teachers and keeping arms at schools would drive that number higher?

defies all logic. What, if teachers are armed, somehow those firearms will levitate themselves from the teacher’s holsters into the hands of the children to play with and handle?

You libs are just freakin’ idiots.

AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 10:09 PM

No, it is logical. If you regularly have well over a hundred kids killed in accidents handling firearms and you start keeping firearms at schools the number of accidents like that is bound to go up. I’m not a lib and can’t be bothered to watch MSNBC even for a few laughs. The source was the medical examiner’s office and I plucked the first one. Here is same info from Fox News (video#2).

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 10:50 PM

Exactly, Galt2009. They are making a movie starring a loser!

This British Psychiatrist told the media how to stop it three years ago, and they ignored him.

Media Warning, Ignored

PattyJ on December 15, 2012 at 11:07 PM

it wasnt a “bullet proof” vest anyway guys, it was a load bearing vest used to hold magazines. it just looks like a scary “bullet proof” vest to media types and ignorant people. kind of like an “assault” weapon.

and unless he was wearing type III or IV then a rifle would have easily stopped the threat.

Lifeisdeath on December 15, 2012 at 11:09 PM

No, it is logical. If you regularly have well over a hundred kids killed in accidents handling firearms and you start keeping firearms at schools the number of accidents like that is bound to go up. I’m not a lib and can’t be bothered to watch MSNBC even for a few laughs. The source was the medical examiner’s office and I plucked the first one. Here is same info from Fox News (video#2).

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 10:50 PM

You speak in generalities and absolutes and ignore context and proportionality. FAR more kids die in drownings than by firearms. An unlikely accident by a person properly trained, vs the likelihood of countering or diverting a murderous attack sure looks like a pretty damned good tradeoff.
The key to gun safety in such an environment is training and practice and little to no gun handling while in the school environment. Secure the firearm close to hand or on the hip and DON’T fiddle with it. Follow the well-proven rules of safe gun handling. There are no such things as accidents. It is NEGLIGENCE when a gun goes off ‘unexpectedly’. Follow the kyey four rules and such a thing can never happen.

And please let’s not bandy about police stats on such things, they’re laughably tragic. Cops in general can’t shoot, don’t train beyond their qualification minimums, and they shoot themselves and bystanders about as often as they hit their intended targets (and people’s pets). The anecdotes are legend of police being out-shot in open competitive events against (their fellow) civilians, shooting themselves or each other, or accounts of them hitting a flock of bystanders as on the street in NYC several weeks ago.

rayra on December 15, 2012 at 11:16 PM

These cowardly murderers deliberately choose these liberal-created ‘GUN FREE ZONES’ because they do not expect to be opposed there.
The aurora theatre shooter bypassed / ignored theatres closer to his home, which did not declare themselves ‘gun free zones’, as his target location did.

rayra on December 15, 2012 at 11:18 PM

rayra on December 15, 2012 at 11:16 PM

My point was that many more children are killed and maimed in accidents with guns than as a result of mass murder attacks on schools. Of course that often involves negligence of some kind.

My other point was that even professionals would have a hard time getting a head shot in an emergency situation and I would expect armed teachers are unlikely to be more accurate.

None of you perfectly valid points support arming teachers in order to avoid a situation like the one that occurred in CT.

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 11:26 PM

If there is any remedy to be found to these events, it’s not through legislation or restricting the tools (read: guns in these cases) used by madmen. It’s the rebuilding of a sense of community and responsibility to each other.. a shared sense of decency being passed down to each generation.

Very true and worth remembering, Jazz. Many years ago, I went through training to become a reserve police officer for the city I lived in. At the end of the training we were given an interview by an officer which, in my case, consisted of a ride-along during his shift. One question he asked me was: Do I think the average citizen is honest or dishonest? The answer came to me in just a couple of seconds: They’re honest, because, if they weren’t, policing the community would be impossible. Criminals are a very small minority in our community, and homicidal maniacs are even smaller.

This is what is so frustrating about listening to people spout knee-jerk gun control platitudes every time there’s an incident like this: All of their proposals do nothing but punish the 99.999% who aren’t the problem, while making the environment safer for the .001% who are. The federal “assault weapon” ban was a case in point, put into law in reaction to the schoolyard shooting in Sacramento, CA, but which did absolutely nothing to reduce gun crimes or mass shootings, as was finally admitted to by the Clinton DOJ. When means-tested, such laws always fail.

Politics these days, and liberal politics in particular, tend to dis-empower the individual in favor of institutionalized and centralized responses. So we have a huge new TSA bureaucracy that does nothing but infantilize passengers, but then claims “the system works” when individual passengers respond to a bombing attempt and take out the terrorist. The answer is staring us in the face, but because it doesn’t align with their own agenda, big-government politicians and officials are blind to it. Worse, they actively go out of their way to suppress it.

Socratease on December 15, 2012 at 11:31 PM

rogerb on December 15, 2012 at 9:08 PM

Don’t get rogerb mad at you. He will find that time you wet your pants in kindergarten and quote it in his reply. :)

Sockpuppet Politic on December 15, 2012 at 11:33 PM

No, it is logical. If you regularly have well over a hundred kids killed in accidents handling firearms and you start keeping firearms at schools the number of accidents like that is bound to go up. I’m not a lib and can’t be bothered to watch MSNBC even for a few laughs. The source was the medical examiner’s office and I plucked the first one. Here is same info from Fox News (video#2).

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 10:50 PM

No, it is completely illogical. You seem to make the assertion here that the teachers who carry are going to leave those firearms laying around where the students would have access to them. That is an illogical assertion.

You jump from allowing teachers to carry to “keeping firearms at school”; a total leap of illogic.

“I’m not a lib, but I always support liberal causes and positions here on HotAir”.

AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 11:33 PM

My other point was that even professionals would have a hard time getting a head shot in an emergency situation and I would expect armed teachers are unlikely to be more accurate.

First of all, it is not likely the guy was wearing a bullet-proof vest. Any tactical vest to the MSM automatically becomes body armor just as any rifle is automatically an assault weapon with those jokers.

Secondly, a center of mass shot even if the perp is wearing a bullet proof vest is going to cause some disruption of his activities — enough for the defender to get off a second, more effective shot. You really have no idea whether a person engaged in such an encounter could effect a head shot or not. What would happen is that the person bent on mayhem would be disrupted. Further, just knowing that he was not entering an unarmed victim zone would also serve as a deterrent.

None of you perfectly valid points support arming teachers in order to avoid a situation like the one that occurred in CT.

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 11:26 PM

The fact that having an unarmed victim zone seems to be attractive to mass murderers argues for arming law abiding citizens period. All of the recent mass murders have occurred in unarmed victim zones. Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora, now CT — all of them nearly guaranteed the perps of not having to fear being engaged by armed citizens. One can even argue that the Tucson incident falls under the same auspices since the event was for a democrat and attended by libs who are pretty much anti-gun and would never think about carrying. There were some CCW people in the parking lot, but they weren’t part of the Giffords audience.

AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 11:41 PM

No, it is completely illogical. You seem to make the assertion here that the teachers who carry are going to leave those firearms laying around where the students would have access to them. That is an illogical assertion.

You jump from allowing teachers to carry to “keeping firearms at school”; a total leap of illogic.

“I’m not a lib, but I always support liberal causes and positions here on HotAir”.

AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 11:33 PM

Let me just remind you of the position that I took exception to in the first place.

If you arm all the teachers it will prevent these trajedies.

Pablo Honey on December 15, 2012 at 7:21 PM

Do you think that arming all teachers would cause more accidents and lead to more kids being killed or maimed than the number of lives saved by preventing Newtown style massacres?

Seriously, is disagreeing with that statement and not wanting armed teachers in classrooms a liberal position to you?

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 11:42 PM

Do you think that arming all teachers would cause more accidents and lead to more kids being killed or maimed than the number of lives saved by preventing Newtown style massacres?

Seriously, is disagreeing with that statement and not wanting armed teachers in classrooms a liberal position to you?

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 11:42 PM

See, this is the typical leaps of logic to which you are prone.

Nobody is saying that all teachers should be armed. Only those that desire to do so and can pass training similar to the CCW courses taught in most states. So no, I don’t think that allowing those teachers to be armed will lead to more kids being killed or maimed. That isn’t even a logical progression. Teachers are allowed to drive on campus and somehow manage not to run down students or have students steal their cars. Not that many years ago, not only did teachers have firearms on their persons or in their cars, students carried guns in their automobiles to go hunting after school. That never caused any problems, why should this arrangement?

Yes, not wanting armed teachers is a liberal position. It takes away the ability for those teachers who so desire to be able to defend themselves and their classrooms, it makes them dependent upon the security arrangements of the school and the police (who are minutes away) for their safety; an arrangement that has proven tragic multiple times.

AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 11:53 PM

Guns are not the problem.

Our culture is decadent, corrupt, violent, death dealing. Our best and brightest, our leaders are too often predators and swindlers. It seems most in positions of power are corrupt or at least abide corruption.

Pornography destroys dignity and sense of self worth for the performers and consumers alike.

Abortion on demand is simply a horrible tragedy and abomination pitting the strong against the weak, vulnerable, and defenseless. This evil, this assault on human dignity and justice is not lost on the younger generation. Children who live at the whim of their mothers choosing their life, grow up. Boys become men and they don’t forget the contingent choice that deigned to let them live when so many are killed in the womb. Many adults who raise children are proud supporters of the feminist view of absolute power of the mother over the life of the weakest child- they support, tout, rally for the cause of choosing which child lives or dies depending on nothing but their notion of wanting the child or not wanting her. This is tragedy and vile and death dealing to the trust between parents and children.

Think about the effect of the commercials we hear on the radio or watch on t.v., the music we listen too, the video games we play, the pornography that crushes trust and respect between lovers, husbands and wives, the child molestation and abuse that is ever more rampant in our neighborhoods, The rampant drug culture destroying lives and filling jails in cities and bible belt rural towns and villages across the country.

Think about the thievery of the bankers, politicians, investment gurus, the decay of the institutions of higher education and the public schools, the every day violence in many neighborhoods of our once proudest great cities across the land.

Guns are not the problem. Evil and complacency in the face of evil are the problem.

Take away the guns and everyone is vulnerable to the power of the ruling class that has shown itself if not decadent and vice ridden then stupid and imprudent. Who in their right mind want to be at these leaders mercy??

jayker on December 16, 2012 at 12:15 AM

Good luck creating that with the hateful spew on this site. “Takers,” “moochers,” “libtards,” “communists” etc etc.

lostmotherland on December 15, 2012 at 7:19 PM

Starve the Looters, always, and keep them in the cold/dark. They deserve NO less.

Schadenfreude on December 16, 2012 at 1:20 AM

defies all logic. What, if teachers are armed, somehow those firearms will levitate themselves from the teacher’s holsters into the hands of the children to play with and handle?

You libs are just freakin’ idiots.

AZfederalist

Well, to be fair, there is an epidemic of accidental gun deaths in police stations and shooting ranges across the country due to all the guns around.

/sarc

My other point was that even professionals would have a hard time getting a head shot in an emergency situation and I would expect armed teachers are unlikely to be more accurate.

lexhamfox

Ahhh yes, the old head shot canard. Don’t forget, someone might get shot in the crossfire too. Much better if the killer just slaughters everyone uncontested. It’s much safer that way.

The fact that having an unarmed victim zone seems to be attractive to mass murderers argues for arming law abiding citizens period. All of the recent mass murders have occurred in unarmed victim zones. Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora, now CT — all of them nearly guaranteed the perps of not having to fear being engaged by armed citizens.

AZfederalist

Sort of related, last night here in my city, a man approached a Dominos pizza delivery guy sitting in his car and asked him if he had a gun. When the delivery guy said no, the guy pulled out a knife and robbed him.

xblade on December 16, 2012 at 2:51 AM

Do you think that arming all teachers would cause more accidents and lead to more kids being killed or maimed than the number of lives saved by preventing Newtown style massacres?

Seriously, is disagreeing with that statement and not wanting armed teachers in classrooms a liberal position to you?

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 11:42 PM

See, this is the typical leaps of logic to which you are prone.

Nobody is saying that all teachers should be armed.

AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 11:53 PM

If you arm all the teachers it will prevent these trajedies.

Pablo Honey on December 15, 2012 at 7:21 PM

OK? And I even reposted that comment right before your response. But I would grant that is an extreme and extremely rare position to take.

I think having loads of guns at schools is a bad idea. I do agree that the gun free zone stuff is as effective as drug free zone ridiculousness. I could be persuaded on training a certain number of school employees to have concealed weapons and employ them safely and effectively to counter the growing menace and inevitable copy cats. It will be interesting to learn what motivated Adam to do what he did.

My other point was that even professionals would have a hard time getting a head shot in an emergency situation and I would expect armed teachers are unlikely to be more accurate.

lexhamfox

Ahhh yes, the old head shot canard. Don’t forget, someone might get shot in the crossfire too. Much better if the killer just slaughters everyone uncontested. It’s much safer that way.

xblade on December 16, 2012 at 2:51 AM

Ummm context. I pointed out that a teacher with a handgun would have a hard time stopping someone armed and equipped as the attacker was (Bushmaster rifle & reports of body armor) and other commentators responded that a head shot would take care of it. I stand by my comment that it would be difficult & unlikely but grant that it is probably better than nothing.

lexhamfox on December 16, 2012 at 4:42 AM

If you arm all the teachers it will prevent these trajedies.

Pablo Honey on December 15, 2012 at 7:21 PM

Nobody is saying that all teachers should be armed.

AZfederalist on December 15, 2012 at 11:53 PM

It’s very difficult to be 100% vigilant all the time. If you’re talking about teachers carrying loaded handguns while constantly mingling with young rambunctious children, you will increase accidental shootings. Armed police don’t spend their days playing with children, sitting in story circles, etc. Even police occasionally have accidental shootings and they devote many hours to weapons training. It is unreasonable to expect that level of weapons training of teachers.

talkingpoints on December 16, 2012 at 6:11 AM

And that includes speaking up when we learn that somebody is even considering doing something like this.

I don’t quite understand nor do I know the details about the CN killer. Were there signs that he was deranged and/or violent that people failed to speak up about?

MJBrutus on December 16, 2012 at 6:44 AM

talkingpoints on December 16, 2012 at 6:11 AM

I would agree that ALL teachers should not be armed, but guns should be allowed in the hands of those who choose to obtain the training to handle them safely. The amount of harm a mad shooter can do is inversely proportional to the time it takes an armed defender(s) to respond.

MJBrutus on December 16, 2012 at 6:46 AM

MJBrutus on December 16, 2012 at 6:46 AM

My daughter is in middle school, and the teacher she has for a large part of the day is an ex-marine. She feels certain he has a gun stashed somewhere close by and it makes her feel safe. I have no idea if it’s true, but I hope so. And I hope that anyone in her school who may be thinking about doing something also thinks he has a gun.

Night Owl on December 16, 2012 at 7:17 AM

The difference is, people in OK most likely were not AFRAID to stop it. The people in CT, mainly the parents, were unable to, or unwilling to, get the STATE involved. Some people really just should NOT be walking around free.

TX-96 on December 16, 2012 at 8:27 AM

It’s very difficult to be 100% vigilant all the time. If you’re talking about teachers carrying loaded handguns while constantly mingling with young rambunctious children, you will increase accidental shootings. Armed police don’t spend their days playing with children, sitting in story circles, etc. Even police occasionally have accidental shootings and they devote many hours to weapons training. It is unreasonable to expect that level of weapons training of teachers.

talkingpoints on December 16, 2012 at 6:11 AM

That’s a lot of talkingpoints to be so easily countered:

http://www.costco.com/Honeywell-Steel-Security-1.0-cu.ft.-Laptop-Safe.product.11649275.html

rogerb on December 16, 2012 at 8:39 AM

Sergeant Shaw writes:

The last point this brings up, though, has to do with community.

..it also goes to a citizenry prepared to stop such perpetration considering over-burdened law enforcement. Ever wonder why the Oregon Mall shooting was not more extensive?

The War Planner on December 16, 2012 at 12:28 PM

They have a point, it wasn’t but a few weeks ago that Chicago had 10 shootings in one day; seems Preznit couldn’t rouse himself to issue a tearful statement to the nation.

Bishop on December 15, 2012 at 9:05 PM

..apologies to all who posted the link to the CCW guy sopping the Oregon shooter. I am a little rusty here on HG. (Must read threads first.)

Here is what you’re referring to I think, Bishop.

The War Planner on December 16, 2012 at 12:37 PM

But if 10% of the teachers want to keep a gun in the glove compartment of their car then they’re suddenly the most untrustworthy, clumsy, prone-to-violence, idiots to ever stumble over a crosswalk.

Square that circle.

rogerb on December 15, 2012 at 10:38 PM

This is because most liberals subconsciously believe that anyone who would be willing to shoot or own a gun is, ipso facto, already slightly deranged. They tend to have little contact with guns or those who use them which feeds this discomfort and, honestly, fear. The presence of guns means that the existence of evil must be recognized. Liberals want those scary things far away from their daily lives so that they can continue to live in their blissful, free-from-violence-or-death “gun-free zones”. Until the day that real evil intrudes.

inmypajamas on December 16, 2012 at 12:49 PM

If you regularly have well over a hundred kids killed in accidents handling firearms…

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 10:50 PM

Almost all of those kids are handling illegal firearms (the owner is in illegal possession of it, or the “kids” stole it). Some percentage of them are suicides that are mis-identified. And, 18, 19, and 20yos are often included in those numbers.

… you start keeping firearms at schools the number of accidents like that is bound to go up.

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 10:50 PM

The weapons won’t be kept “at schools”, they will be kept *on* the person. If there is any need to put them away while at school, the school can provide locked drawers or lockers or gun safes in which they can be secured temporarily.

As for kids handling the weapons, I actually think that’s a good idea. It removes the mystery of the thing. There was once a time when the NRA taught their safety programs *in* the schools. Heck, I would make a field trip out of it – take the kiddoes to a range, let them see how loud and scary guns really are, but how they can be controlled by a competent adult. Do the safety thing – what to do if you find a gun, etc. Then take ‘em for ice cream and the park (and let them run around for an hour pretending to shoot each other so they get it all out of their systems).

GWB on December 16, 2012 at 12:57 PM

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2012/12/the-sandy-hook-murders-what-to-do.php

See the photo at the end.

Owen Glendower on December 16, 2012 at 6:58 PM

‎”I will never carry a loaded gun except while hunting, and then only with the safety lock on.” –New Year’s resolution recommended by the National Rifle Association, 1936

libfreeordie on December 16, 2012 at 7:03 PM

… you start keeping firearms at schools the number of accidents like that is bound to go up.
lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 10:50 PM

Pure, unsubstantiated speculation.

The weapons won’t be kept “at schools”, they will be kept *on* the person. If there is any need to put them away while at school, the school can provide locked drawers or lockers or gun safes in which they can be secured temporarily.

Correct, of course. But let me suggest that it might be better to require that the handgun be kept on the authorized person at all times.

I was surprised to learn a year or two ago that the “official” rules (from the TSA, I believe) for airline pilots keeping a handgun in the cockpit required that the weapon be handled multiple times in the process. It was not permissible for the pilot simply to put the firearm in a concealed-carry holster at the start of his day and leave it there.

A law-enforcement officer who carried concealed every day sharply criticized those procedures. He pointed out that for him, a perfect day was holstering his weapon when he left the house in the morning and not touching it again until he returned home and changed clothes at the end of the day. He had many such days.

I have no idea how many LEOs, other security officers, and CCW permit holders carry concealed every day in this country. I must say that I see very few news stories about accidental discharges committed by such people.

Owen Glendower on December 16, 2012 at 7:24 PM

“After a shooting spree,” author William Burroughs once said, “they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn’t do it.”

Full article here:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/12/14/connecticut-school-shooting-gun-control/1770345/

Owen Glendower on December 16, 2012 at 7:26 PM

None of you perfectly valid points support arming teachers in order to avoid a situation like the one that occurred in CT.

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 11:26 PM

Puleeze. The Fort Hood shooter had time to reload because nobody around him had a gun. People tried to stop him by throwing chairs at him.

Ummm context. I pointed out that a teacher with a handgun would have a hard time stopping someone armed and equipped as the attacker was (Bushmaster rifle & reports of body armor) and other commentators responded that a head shot would take care of it. I stand by my comment that it would be difficult & unlikely but grant that it is probably better than nothing.

lexhamfox on December 16, 2012 at 4:42 AM

If that Adam dude was confronted by a teacher who was trained to handle a gun, he would surrender or eat a bullet, which is what happened in Clackamas. Cowards don’t like confrontation.

Kyle_Reese on December 17, 2012 at 3:31 AM

”I will never carry a loaded gun except while hunting, and then only with the safety lock on.” –New Year’s resolution recommended by the National Rifle Association, 1936

libfreeordie on December 16, 2012 at 7:03 PM

What is the context of that quote?

I’ve searched online and newspaper archives for that quote and its context. The only reference I’ve found is from Timothy Stewart-Winter’s twitter, which you copied: https://twitter.com/timothysw/status/280457386609750018

Kyle_Reese on December 17, 2012 at 5:28 AM

This never used to happen. I can’t recall a single act of school gun violence prior to 1975. They used to allow prayer in school. They used to teach morals in school. The expelled God in 1962. The last kids to experience this graduated in 1975.

Kids used to take their guns to school, hunting on the way to school and on the way home. Nobody thought anything about it.

If kids think that there is nothing special about their fellow human beings.
If kids think people are just like any other animal.
If they don’t believe that there is a God.
If they don’t know that one day they will be held accountable.

If, If, If…

Maybe, just maybe, then things like this can happen.

I blame liberals and evolutionists (excuse the redundancy).

The Rock on December 17, 2012 at 8:21 AM

Evolutionists aren’t always liberals. Blame the psychos who commit theses atrocities.

hatecraft on December 17, 2012 at 8:44 AM

Barach Obama and Rahm Emmanuel do nothing about the behavior of the young people in Chicago, which includes the use of illegal guns, and gang behavior, mostly due to improper males as role models, lack of fathers, complicity of parents and adult onlookers,and a feeling that there are too many diversity candidates in jail to turn in someone you know because of fairness.

In Boston, Duval Patrick ignores the same issues. Hundreds of young people are killed each year in these two cities. A lot of it is premeditated evil and revenge related, or accidents against innocent bystanders. They really don’t care to fix it, because they won’t be honest about the problems. It is the same when you think some guns went on a rampage in CT last week. In MA, a young man with Asperger’s obsessed with hunting knives murdered at least one boy in the school bathroom.

It’s time to look for the root of the problems.

Fleuries on December 17, 2012 at 12:11 PM

I blame liberals and evolutionists (excuse the redundancy).

The Rock on December 17, 2012 at 8:21 AM

That is NOT redundant – they are 2 very different types of people.
Are all conservatives also creationists?
Are all Christians also anti-science?
Are all people who claim to be religious – like the Westboro Baptist Church psychos – also automatically good “Christians”?

The generalizations some people on this site make about people are sometimes mind-boggling.

dentarthurdent on December 17, 2012 at 12:50 PM

Body armor does not make you invincible. A well placed shot will more than get your attention, and a good ol’ 45 will knock your ass down and break a few ribs.

Pole-Cat on December 17, 2012 at 3:27 PM

That worked in Oklahoma by all accounts. It somehow failed to work in Connecticut.

No two of these things are the same. The advantage the police in Oklahoma had was the perp’s attempt to recruit followers. The disadvantage police in Connecticut had was the perp’s lonerism.

We as people tend not to think much of other people who “act wierd” — we avoid them, but don’t give them much other thought. That is, unless/until they threaten us or others — at which point we either commit the sin of omission or do something for the sake of good.

unclesmrgol on December 18, 2012 at 4:04 PM

The generalizations some people on this site make about people are sometimes mind-boggling.

dentarthurdent on December 17, 2012 at 12:50 PM

Saved yourself — you used the word “some”.

unclesmrgol on December 18, 2012 at 4:04 PM

Seriously, is disagreeing with that statement and not wanting armed teachers in classrooms a liberal position to you?

lexhamfox on December 15, 2012 at 11:42 PM

How about an armed principal? That certainly would have made the difference at Sandy Hook….

unclesmrgol on December 18, 2012 at 4:09 PM

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