Great news: Your permanent record is now available on demand

posted at 10:01 am on December 13, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Remember when government needed something called a warrant or even probable cause to look at your records?  Good times, good times.  I’m nostalgic for the halcyon days of, er, February of this year, before the Attorney General of the United States signed off on an order allowing the government to access pretty much everything it wanted in the name of counterterrorism.  The Wall Street Journal found out about the order and got a FOIA request to force its exposure:

Top U.S. intelligence officials gathered in the White House Situation Room in March to debate a controversial proposal. Counterterrorism officials wanted to create a government dragnet, sweeping up millions of records about U.S. citizens—even people suspected of no crime.

Not everyone was on board. “This is a sea change in the way that the government interacts with the general public,” Mary Ellen Callahan, chief privacy officer of the Department of Homeland Security, argued in the meeting, according to people familiar with the discussions.

A week later, the attorney general signed the changes into effect.

Through Freedom of Information Act requests and interviews with officials at numerous agencies, The Wall Street Journal has reconstructed the clash over the counterterrorism program within the administration of President Barack Obama. The debate was a confrontation between some who viewed it as a matter of efficiency—how long to keep data, for instance, or where it should be stored—and others who saw it as granting authority for unprecedented government surveillance of U.S. citizens.

The rules now allow the little-known National Counterterrorism Center to examine the government files of U.S. citizens for possible criminal behavior, even if there is no reason to suspect them. That is a departure from past practice, which barred the agency from storing information about ordinary Americans unless a person was a terror suspect or related to an investigation.

Now, NCTC can copy entire government databases—flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and many others. The agency has new authority to keep data about innocent U.S. citizens for up to five years, and to analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior. Previously, both were prohibited. Data about Americans “reasonably believed to constitute terrorism information” may be permanently retained.

Well, hey, we can trust the American government to handle this properly, soberly, and with caution, right?  At least the data will stay with accountable US officials.  Whew.  That’s a load off of my mind — er, what’s that? Um …

The changes also allow databases of U.S. civilian information to be given to foreign governments for analysis of their own. In effect, U.S. and foreign governments would be using the information to look for clues that people might commit future crimes.

“It’s breathtaking” in its scope, said a former senior administration official familiar with the White House debate.

The good news: Saudi Arabia might now have all of our firearm registration data.  What could go wrong?

Say, remember when Congress used to be involved in writing laws and making policy in the US?  Good times, good times.  Perhaps Congress might want to investigate what the Department of Justice and the National Counterterrorism Center has been doing with the 4th Amendment.  Eric Holder should be subpoenaed and forced to testify under oath about his order, and find out whether Congress got consulted or bypassed entirely on this decision.

It’s interesting how all this came out after the election, huh?  Maybe the name “Julia” for one of Barack Obama’s campaign themes was well chosen.

Update: A couple of commenters blame the Patriot Act for this move.  However, the Patriot Act was passed by Congress, and has been extended and somewhat limited by Congress in multiple extensions.  Congress can repeal it at any time, just as they can any statute.  Regardless of the debatable wisdom of the Patriot Act — which I supported at those times — it didn’t give the executive branch carte blanche to access records without some sort of probable cause, nor share those records with foreign governments, and it didn’t get imposed unilaterally by the executive branch. This is a completely new abuse of power, and Congress should be furious over it, as should the rest of us.


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The agency has new authority to keep data about innocent U.S. citizens for up to five years, and to analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior.

And who gets to determine what is suspicious? Being pro-life? Being a Vet? Joining the NRA? Posting on Hot Air? Disagreeing with the president?

And once again.. where is our Republican leadership? Why was the first place I heard about this on this blog instead of a House floor speech by any number of Republicans?

Yes.. I joined the Republican party.. and I vote Republican because I wanted to support a party that supports the other party. Yes.. I’m a freaking Republican because they support the Democrats. Everybody knows that’s why you join the Republican party.

At the risk of sounding suspicious, I grew up being taught that when states kept their citizens under constant surveillance it was never a good thing. Sorta a sign of a really really bad thing.

And the GOP? Not a sound. Nothing offends their sensibilities.

JellyToast on December 13, 2012 at 4:07 PM

I see, so by defending somebody here on the grounds that they appear to be an advocate of liberty against tyranny I’ve made myself your target. That reveals a lot about you, Koolaid drinker.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:40 PM

…ah…no!…(“advocate of liberty”?)…WHAT are you talking about?…your mouth is ALWAYS open and yapping like the lady in the picture…you just need something in it!

KOOLAID2 on December 13, 2012 at 4:09 PM

neocons are right-wing (some would say left-wing) fascists who are responsible for the booming police-state.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Are you really pushing the pre-eminent lie from the National Socialist Left that the right-wing is fascist?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:12 PM

I just called Senator Blunt’s office about this. They were unaware of it.

quikstrike98 on December 13, 2012 at 4:15 PM

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:59 PM

I’m still not sure I understand your point based on the two quotes you provided. Are you saying that everybody who voted for Obama believes in tyranny and everybody who voted for Romney believes in freedom?

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 4:18 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 4:18 PM

neocons are right-wing (some would say left-wing) fascists who are responsible for the booming police-state.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Are you really pushing the pre-eminent lie from the National Socialist Left that the right-wing is fascist?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:20 PM

Are you really pushing the pre-eminent lie from the National Socialist Left that the right-wing is fascist?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:12 PM

You obviously don’t know what fascism is.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 4:21 PM

Are you really pushing the pre-eminent lie from the National Socialist Left that the right-wing is fascist?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:12 PM

The bifactional ruling party certainly is fascist:

“The test of fascism is not one’s rage against the Italian and German war lords. The test is — how many of the essential principles of fascism do you accept and to what extent are you prepared to apply those fascist ideas to American social and economic life? When you can put your finger on the men or the groups that urge for America the debt-supported state, the autarkical corporative state, the state bent on the socialization of investment and the bureaucratic government of industry and society, the establishment of the institution of militarism as the great glamorous public-works project of the nation and the institution of imperialism under which it proposes to regulate and rule the world and, along with this, proposes to alter the forms of our government to approach as closely as possible the unrestrained, absolute government — then you will know you have located the authentic fascist.

But let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that we are dealing by this means with the problem of fascism. Fascism will come at the hands of perfectly authentic Americans, as violently against Hitler and Mussolini as the next one, but who are convinced that the present economic system is washed up and that the present political system in America has outlived its usefulness and who wish to commit this country to the rule of the bureaucratic state; interfering in the affairs of the states and cities; taking part in the management of industry and finance and agriculture; assuming the role of great national banker and investor, borrowing millions every year and spending them on all sorts of projects through which such a government can paralyze opposition and command public support; marshaling great armies and navies at crushing costs to support the industry of war and preparation for war which will become our greatest industry; and adding to all this the most romantic adventures in global planning, regeneration, and domination all to be done under the authority of a powerfully centralized government in which the executive will hold in effect all the powers with Congress reduced to the role of a debating society. There is your fascist.”
– John T. Flynn, As We Go Marching, 1944

How many of those essential principles do the two major parties support, and how many do regular Americans support? The US is a fascist state, we have two fascist parties to choose from and, even though they don’t like to admit it, most Americans are fascists.

“And the sooner America realizes this dreadful fact the sooner it will arm itself to make an end of American fascism masquerading under the guise of the champion of democracy.”

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 4:24 PM

Are you really pushing the pre-eminent lie from the National Socialist Left that the right-wing is fascist?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:12 PM

You obviously don’t know what fascism is.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 4:21 PM

In certain basic respects – a totalitarian state structure, a single party, a leader, a secret police, a hatred of political, cultural and intellectual freedom – fascism and communism are clearly more like each other than they are like anything in between.

Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr., Associate Professor of History at Harvard

How is it “Right wing”?

Please provide some specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Indeed, indeed, but the leftists now approve of anything Obama does.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:04 PM

It’s pathetic and hypocritical, no? Principles out the window. Whatever happened to closing Guantanamo Bay, boys? *crickets*

* Notable honorable exception to G. Greenwald, who eviscerates Obama as much as (or possibly more than) he did Bush on the growth of the security state. Other than that… *cricketscricketscrickets*

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:29 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 4:18 PM

No, but one is not the other, and one is a true Utopian marxist.

Plus, not one who brung Obama deserves to be free any longer. May you all be destroyed by him. YOU brung him, you own hom.

Starve the Looters. I do. I quit producing and just enjoy the self-made demise. Plus, I don’t take a penny from the other producers.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:30 PM

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:29 PM

Also sprach Zarathustra :)

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:31 PM

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 4:24 PM

Same question to you:

Please provide some specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Don’t bother posting long boring texts for unknown personages that simply repeat the word fascism over and over again as proof.

I want specifics on policy agendas and definitions that back up the National Socialist Left’s BIG lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:32 PM

You obviously don’t know what fascism is.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 4:21 PM

You obviously aren’t familiar with the leftist origins of the Nazi Party and Mussolini’s fascism.

Reposted from back in the “Scott Walker = Hitler” days:

The Nazi Party (“National Socialist German Workers’ Party”) was basically the official embodiment of Hitler’s personal brand of socialism, with a nationalistic, rather than international, focus. Hitler (as well as Mussolini in Italy) drew significant inspiration from the Communist, socialist, trade-unionist, and syndicalist movements – even the most cursory examination of his biography will bear this out.

Hitler was not opposed to trade unions on ideological grounds, but was competing with the German trade unions and Communists for the same social space. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say that he viewed the Nazi Party not just as a political party, but as a sort of über-union pressing for the same collectivist goals as the trade unions themselves. Even the most cursory examination of various Nazi Party platforms, propaganda, and activities throughout the years will bear this out. In 1932 the Nazis, Communists, and trade unions had no problem joining together to instigate large-scale strikes among Berlin transportation workers.

The similarity in philosophical principles and political goals concerning labor are undeniable. The 1920 Nazi Party platform, for example, included the following items:

We demand that the State make it its duty to provide opportunities of employment first of all for its own Citizens.

It must be the first duty of every Citizen to carry out intellectual or physical work. Individual activity must not be harmful to the public interest and must be pursued within the framework of the community and for the general good.

The abolition of all income obtained without labor or effort.

We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts).

We demand profit-sharing in large enterprises.

We demand the large-scale development of old-age pension schemes.

We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle class; the immediate communalization of the large department stores, which are to be leased at low rates to small tradesmen. We demand the most careful consideration for the owners of small businesses in orders placed by national, state, or community authorities.

The establishment of trade and professional organizations to enforce the Reich basic laws in the individual states.

Does Scott Walker still remind you of Hitler now?

steebo77 on March 3, 2011 at 5:10 PM

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 4:36 PM

Used to be if someone wanted information about someone they would have to actually drive down to the records office and request your marriage, divorce, mortgage and other information.

For years now anybody anywhere has been able to access such information easily online with a search engine whether or not they really need this information—because it’s “public record”. I’ve complained about that to others, but no one ever really seemed concerned about it.

But that’s how it works…they start invading our privacy and our rights (ALWAYS for a damn good reason that’s going to protect YOU and your COUNTRY, of course!) and everyone gets used to it. Then they dig in a little deeper, and then a little more and so on.

I don’t NEED to know who you got divorced from, and when, and how much you paid for the proceedings, and how much your ex paid, nor do I NEED to know how much your mortgage on your property is. If I did need to know, I should have to fill out a form (explaining why I’m requesting it), present ID and pay a fee that would in part notify that party that I accessed that information about and why and when.

One last note. If you buy a firearm, the NRA and other parties are notified via the background check whether you wanted them to know or not.

But, as usual, we the sheeple will do nothing but bleat and then forget about it after the weekend is over.

Dr. ZhivBlago on December 13, 2012 at 4:41 PM

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:29 PM

Also sprach Zarathustra :)

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:31 PM

Quick, ze Germans are coming!

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:43 PM

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 4:36 PM

I find it very curious that FloatingRock is pushing one of the biggest lies of the National Socialist Left…

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:43 PM

Quick, ze Germans are coming!

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:43 PM

Sadly, they are…who would have ever thought such thuggery possible in the US? So soon too…

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:48 PM

But, as usual, we the sheeple will do nothing but bleat and then forget about it after the weekend is over.

Dr. ZhivBlago on December 13, 2012 at 4:41 PM

Don’t forget …and then go shopping or watch American Idol and Dancing with the stars, and such.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:51 PM

Quick, ze Germans are coming!

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:43 PM

Sadly, they are…who would have ever thought such thuggery possible in the US? So soon too…

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:48 PM

Ze Germans might be preferable to our native-brand statists… now that they seem to have flushed that whole master-race thing out of their system, at least we would have more efficient and less-corrupt totalitarianism.

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:56 PM

Are you really pushing the pre-eminent lie from the National Socialist Left that the right-wing is fascist?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:12 PM

You obviously don’t know what fascism is.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 4:21 PM

fas·cism
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

Still waiting for some specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:57 PM

Shades of 1984. It’s here now and doing quite well.

Rick013 on December 13, 2012 at 4:58 PM

Ze Germans might be preferable to our native-brand statists… now that they seem to have flushed that whole master-race thing out of their system, at least we would have more efficient and less-corrupt totalitarianism.

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:56 PM

Not yet, but moving in that direction, in disguise. Goebbels orgasms every time Carney or Obama speak.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:58 PM

How is it “Right wing”?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Your party just nominated Mitt Romney, a corporatist, and by so doing lost the right to claim that there is no link between the right-wing and forms of corporatism.

In fact the far right is authoritarian, same as the left. The center of the political spectrum are people who just want to live their lives and be left alone to their friends and family. They realize there is a need for government but don’t want it to grow too powerful. People who believe in the smallest government that employs the least force against other people to control their lives represent the center, and far left and far right represents tyranny.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:01 PM

Credit where credit is due, indefinite detention is Bush’s baby. Kill lists and assassinations most certainly Obama’s. There’s plenty of credit for everybody to share.

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:00 PM

I’m sure John Yoo’s fingerprints are on that as well.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 5:12 PM

Personally, the best way to combat this sort of idiocracy is to overwhelm it with nonsense.
I have a friend who attaches a signature to his e-mails that has words and phrases like “AK-47″, “thermonuclear”, “radioactive”, “weaponized”, “nuclear”, “biological”, “chemical”, “NBC” and “MSNBC” to all his e-mails.

J_Crater on December 13, 2012 at 5:14 PM

Still waiting for some specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:57 PM

Fascism is very similar to but different from socialism. Socialism is when the state owns the means of production and fascism is when the means of production is privately owned, but centrally controlled by the state. The result is very similar.

When corporations own the state and/or vice-versa, that certainly qualifies as corporatism, IMO, and that’s what we have now in America, and the pace that the two parties are racing to the left and the right is accelerating.

National Socialism in Germany was fascist, not socialist. The crony-capitalist Keynesianism we have today, combined with the boom in the police state brought about by neocons on the far-right and their counterparts on the far-left, is certainly fascistic in nature. Consider all the cameras, drones and the invasion of our privacy, including the original subject of this thread. These days even the Marxist leaning politicians are crony-capitalists. And the MSM is their propaganda arm.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:14 PM

How is it “Right wing”?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Your party just nominated Mitt Romney, a corporatist, and by so doing lost the right to claim that there is no link between the right-wing and forms of corporatism.

In fact the far right is authoritarian, same as the left. The center of the political spectrum are people who just want to live their lives and be left alone to their friends and family. They realize there is a need for government but don’t want it to grow too powerful. People who believe in the smallest government that employs the least force against other people to control their lives represent the center, and far left and far right represents tyranny.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:01 PM

So basically you contention is that the right is fascist because the right is fascist, and the proof is that the right is fascist.

And to back up your argument you repeat that the right is fascist.

Again:

Still waiting for some specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:15 PM

and the pace that the two parties are racing to the left and the right is accelerating.

As exemplified by the 2012 election and the billions spent on propaganda to cover up the truth about both parties.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:15 PM

So basically you contention is that the right is fascist because the right is fascist, and the proof is that the right is fascist.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:15 PM

So you deny that there is a link between the right-wing and authoritarian corporatism? If so, explain Romney.

You are the one you is trying to deny reality, not me. Explain yourself.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:17 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:14 PM

There is a vast difference between the government controlling the corporations and the corporations controlling the government.

But you want to quickly gloss of that vast difference.

Do you actually have a credible reference source that backs up you contention?

Or is the sum total of your argument the circular logic that goes on and one ad nauseum?

Still waiting for some specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:21 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:17 PM

Clearly you are trying extricating yourself for your losing contention with distractions into other subjects.

You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:25 PM

There is a vast difference between the government controlling the corporations and the corporations controlling the government.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:21 PM

Not really, they’re all cronies in the same racket who feed off each other at our expense.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:30 PM

Again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:34 PM

Fascism is very similar to but different from socialism. Socialism is when the state owns the means of production and fascism is when the means of production is privately owned, but centrally controlled by the state. The result is very similar.

National Socialism in Germany was fascist, not socialist.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:14 PM

So despite, you know, the word socialism in its name, National Socialism was not a form socialism? Okay. If you say so.

As for ownership of the means of production, from the 1920 Nazi Party platform:

We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts).

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 5:36 PM

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:25 PM

You are a laugh! You are trying to claim there is no link between corporatism and the right when your party just nominated a corporatist, what a joke. Neocons who support the unconstitutional provisions of the NDAA, like McACain and Romney, prove that you are wrong. The crony Romneycare mandate and his assault weapons ban proves that you are wrong. His support of fascist bank bailouts proves it. In fact the far-right does include fascists.

You can repeat “National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie” all you want but it doesn’t change reality.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:38 PM

National Socialism was not a form socialism? Okay. If you say so.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 5:36 PM

So you’re saying that the German NAZI Party wasn’t fascist? Okay then….

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:42 PM

Fascism is very similar to but different from socialism. Socialism is when the state owns the means of production and fascism is when the means of production is privately owned, but centrally controlled by the state. The result is very similar.

National Socialism in Germany was fascist, not socialist.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:14 PM

So despite, you know, the word socialism in its name, National Socialism was not a form socialism? Okay. If you say so.

As for ownership of the means of production, from the 1920 Nazi Party platform:

We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts).

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 5:36 PM

I have to laugh when those of the National Socialist Left try to push that little load of barack:

Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers Party)

That’s kind of like saying they weren’t really German..

But the circular logic argument gets pretty tiresome after awhile – you’ll note that she’s rolled snake eyes on coming up with a credible reference source backing up her contention.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:43 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:38 PM

Again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:45 PM

Again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 5:34 PM

Can you provide a quote or reference to what you call the left’s pre-eminent lie? I assumed you were trying to deny that the right-wing includes fascists, as evidence clearly proves, but maybe you are talking about something else?

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:45 PM

FLudwig von Mises believed that National Socialism was, indeed, socialism (from lewrockwell.com of all places):

No longer could the economy be described as a capitalist one. True enough, the forms of private ownership were preserved. The government did not nationalize the means of production, as in Soviet Russia. But the ostensible owners could not set prices on their own volition. The government made all essential decisions. As Mises said, “The second pattern [of socialism] (we may call it the Hindenburg or German pattern) nominally and seemingly preserves private ownership of the means of production, and keeps the appearance of ordinary markets, prices, wages, and interest rates. These are, however, no longer entrepreneurs, but only shop managers (Betriebsführer in the terminology of the Nazi legislation). These shop managers are seemingly instrumental in the conduct of the enterprises entrusted to them; they buy and sell, hire and discharge workers and remunerate their services, contract debts and pay interest and amortization. But in all their activities they are bound to obey unconditionally the orders issued by the government’s supreme office of production management. This office (the Reichswirtschaftsministerium in Nazi Germany) tells the shop managers what and how to produce, at what prices and from whom to buy, at what prices and to whom to sell. It assigns every worker to his job and fixes his wages. It decrees to whom and on what terms the capitalists must entrust their funds. Market exchange is merely a sham.” (Human Action, pp. 713—714) Contrary to the claim found, e.g., in Franz Neumann, Behemoth, [Harper, 1944], Nazism was not an example of “totalitarian monopoly capitalism.”

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 5:48 PM

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 5:48 PM

Nice job citing Mises and Rockwell. Kudos for that. Notice this:

The government did not nationalize the means of production, as in Soviet Russia. But the ostensible owners could not set prices on their own volition.

And that is why the system was a fascist one, and not pure socialism. Fascism has been described as socialism with a capitalist veneer; while the State does not outright own the means of production, it controls the market, including setting prices.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 5:53 PM

FLudwig von Mises believed that National Socialism was, indeed, socialism (from lewrockwell.com of all places):

No longer could the economy be described as a capitalist

one.

I doubt there was ever a form of fascism that was capitalist, I think of corporatism, of which fascism is one form, as crony-capitalist by its nature, which isn’t capitalism at all.

At any rate, fascism and socialism are very similar and the line between them may be blurry; which probably explains why it doesn’t seem to matter if Democrats or Republicans win elections.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:55 PM

More from Mises:

The doctrines of Nazism are vicious, but they do not essentially disagree with the ideologies of socialism and nationalism as approved by other people’s public opinion. What characterize the Nazis was only the consistent application of these ideologies to the special conditions of Germany. Like all other contemporary nations the Nazis desired government control of business and economic self-sufficiency, i.e., autarky, for their own nation.

“The doctrines of Nazism [...] do not essentially disagree with [...] socialism.”

“[T]he Nazis desired government control of business[.]“

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:45 PM

neocons are right-wing (some would say left-wing) fascists who are responsible for the booming police-state.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM

as evidence clearly proves,

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:45 PM

What evidence are you talking about?

Again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM

I doubt there was ever a form of fascism that was capitalist

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 5:55 PM

To wit (from a footnote in Human Action):

The Nazis used “Jewish” as a synonym of both “capitalist” and “bourgeois.”

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 6:03 PM

What evidence are you talking about?

Again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM

Read the links I posted on page 3. They were liberals who broke with the Democratic Party and infected the Republican Party.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 6:05 PM

Also from Mises in Human Action:

Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz (the welfare of the nation takes precedence over the selfishness of the individuals) was the fundamental principle of Nazi economic management.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 6:06 PM

In the nineteenth century, even in Germany the liberal ideologies imported from the West superseded the well-tried and natural policies of nationalism and socialism. However, Bismarck’s and his successors’ Sozialpolitik and finally Nazism restored them.

This class struggle can disappear only when a fair system of social organization — either socialism or interventionism — is substituted for the manifestly unfair capitalist mode of production.

Such is the almost universally accepted social philosophy of our age. It was not created by Marx, although it owes its popularity mainly to the writings of Marx and the Marxians. It is today endorsed not only by the Marxians, but no less by most of those parties who emphatically declare their anti-Marxism and pay lip service to free enterprise. [...] It is an essential part of the teachings of Italian Fascism and of German Nazism and of the Sozialpolitik of the Hohenzollerns in Germany and of the French royalists aiming at the restoration of the house of Bourbon-Orléans, of the New Deal of President Roosevelt, and of the nationalists of Asia and Latin America. The antagonisms between these parties and factions refer to accidental issues — such as religious dogma, constitutional institutions, foreign policy — and, first of all, to the characteristic features of the social system that is to be substituted for capitalism. But they all agree in the fundamental thesis that the very existence of the capitalist system harms the vital interests of the immense majority of workers, artisans, and small farmers, and they all ask in the name of social justice for the abolition of capitalism.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 6:19 PM

The director of the socialist community will be in a position to allocate the various factors of production in a rational way, i.e., on the ground of calculation. Men can have both socialist cooperation under the division of labor and rational employment of the factors of production. They are free to adopt socialism without abandoning economy in the choice of means. Socialism does not enjoin the renunciation of rationality in the employment of the factors of production. It is a variety of rational social action.

An apparent verification of these errors was seen in the experiences of the socialist governments of Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany. People do not realize that these were not isolated socialist systems. They were operating in an environment in which the price system still worked. They could resort to economic calculation on the ground of the prices established abroad. Without the aid of these prices their actions would have been aimless and planless. Only because they were able to refer to these foreign prices were they able to calculate, to keep books, and to prepare their much talked about plans.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 6:29 PM

What evidence are you talking about?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM

For example the 2012 NDAA bill that allows the government to indefinitely detain American citizens without a due process of law, which neocons are to blame for. Neocons are so right-wing that they violate more than the Constitution, they violate the Magna Carta.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:29 PM

What evidence are you talking about?

Again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM

Read the links I posted on page 3. They were liberals who broke with the Democratic Party and infected the Republican Party.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 6:05 PM

1. How does “liberals who broke with the Democratic Party” have anything to do with proving that contention?

2. Since You are the one trying to prove the point so you are one who has to prove it i.e. READ whatever was posted at the links that someone “proves” the contention.

The wild goose chase gambit is a great way of getting out having to prove anything – you can just tell someone to go to link xyz and you can pretend you’ve proven your point – Fail on your part.

You and FloatingRock have YET to prove anything except how to be deceptive in an argument.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:33 PM

What evidence are you talking about?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM

For example the creation of the TSA.

For example the fascist bank bailout called TARP.

For example, “abandoning the free market in order to save it”.

For example the Patriot Act, which although it may have been acceptable on a short term emergency basis, that time has long since expired, but instead of retiring those measures they are being supercharged and our rights are constantly being sacrificed to the booming police-state.

That’s thanks to neocon fascists on the far-right as well as neo-marxist/fascists on the far-left.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:33 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:29 PM

Once again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:34 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Once again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:35 PM

What evidence are you talking about?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM

For example $16 trillion of national debt and trillions of inflation supported by both parties.

For example the feds Keynesian manipulation of the markets which enables so much cronyism and corruption that it has destroyed the free markets.

For example six billion dollars spent by D and R cronies to cover up the truth that both parties suck.

For example the corporate media that is nothing more than the propaganda arm of the elites.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:38 PM

1. How does “liberals who broke with the Democratic Party” have anything to do with proving that contention?

2. Since You are the one trying to prove the point so you are one who has to prove it i.e. READ whatever was posted at the links that someone “proves” the contention.

The wild goose chase gambit is a great way of getting out having to prove anything – you can just tell someone to go to link xyz and you can pretend you’ve proven your point – Fail on your part.

You and FloatingRock have YET to prove anything except how to be deceptive in an argument.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Yes, it was a wild goose chase for me to provide links to help someone understand a topic, and then refer you to those links when you also requested the information. I suffered no delusion that you would read them, nor do I harbor any belief that you have the capacity to understand them if you were to read them. As I said earlier, I simply cannot have a conversation with someone who lacks skills as you do.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 6:40 PM

Once again: You have yet to back up your contention with specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:35 PM

Whatever, dude. You haven’t even bothered to make an argument in this debate. All you’ve done is repeated the same talking point over and over again without ever once trying to prove your false contention. You are the one trying to defy reality, the onus is on you to prove your party isn’t corporatist in spite of the fact that the Romney nomination proves that it is.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:40 PM

For example six billion dollars spent by D and R cronies to cover up the truth that both parties suck.

…with regard to the 2012 sham election.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:42 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:33 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:38 PM

You’re just spinning you wheels in epic failure mode sucking up bandwidth and boring everyone.

Face it, you haven’t proven diddily squat.

It should be clear to everyone that if you could of found some sort of specific quotes and references from creditable information resources that backs up the National Socialist Left’s pre-eminent lie you would have do so by now.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:43 PM

1. How does “liberals who broke with the Democratic Party” have anything to do with proving that contention?

2. Since You are the one trying to prove the point so you are one who has to prove it i.e. READ whatever was posted at the links that someone “proves” the contention.

The wild goose chase gambit is a great way of getting out having to prove anything – you can just tell someone to go to link xyz and you can pretend you’ve proven your point – Fail on your part.

You and FloatingRock have YET to prove anything except how to be deceptive in an argument.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 6:40 PM

No, you can’t even answer the first point that I made – you’re as pathetic as FloatingRock

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:50 PM

What evidence are you talking about?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:00 PM

For example, when we were attacked on 9/11 Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were most responsible, but the crony corporatists elite and their news media lied to the American people, telling them that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan were instead our friends, and instead of retaliating against the nations most to blame they invaded Iraq, which didn’t have anything to do with 9/11 whatsoever.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:50 PM

No, you can’t even answer the first point that I made – you’re as pathetic as FloatingRock

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:50 PM

You haven’t made a point. If so, what is it?

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:51 PM

You haven’t even bothered to make an argument in this debate.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:40 PM

Again, this is the original contention that I disputed and you have yet to refute:

neocons are right-wing (some would say left-wing) fascists who are responsible for the booming police-state.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Are you really pushing the pre-eminent lie from the National Socialist Left that the right-wing is fascist?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 4:12 PM

So you can’t even successfully make up a good falsehood on what the argument is about.

Have you always been this good at failure?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:51 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:51 PM

You would have figured it out IF you had taken the time to read my comment.

Hint: The part I was referencing was in bold.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:53 PM

That’s thanks to neocon fascists on the far-right as well as neo-marxist/fascists on the far-left.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Wow, you pretty much wake up every day pissed at the world dontcha?

Was FloatingButtHurt already taken???

BigWyo on December 13, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Hint: The part I was referencing was in bold.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:53 PM

So in other words you have lost this debate without even scoring a single point in your favor, all you are capable of doing is repeating the same cryptic phrase over and over again without elucidation.

Over and out. Let me know if you have anything useful to contribute that is worthy of a response and perhaps I’ll chime back in.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 7:05 PM

BigWyo on December 13, 2012 at 7:04 PM

You make a convincing losing argument.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 7:07 PM

Uh, Chip-on-shoulder, both Dante and Rock posted an abundance of quotes and references. Even though I don’t totally agree with the premise, I am able to admit they presented evidence for their case. You, on the other hand, seem to have your fingers in your ears and your eyes closed…

Ace ODale on December 13, 2012 at 7:17 PM

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 6:53 PM

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 7:05 PM

Again to refresh your addled memory – You have yet to prove your contention with specific and credible reference sources.

You’re the one who tried to put forward the pre-eminent lie from the National Socialist Left and you were the one who utterly failed to back it up.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 7:42 PM

both Dante and Rock posted an abundance of quotes and references. Even though I don’t totally agree with the premise, I am able to admit they presented evidence for their case.

Ace ODale on December 13, 2012 at 7:17 PM

Really?

Perhaps you can point out just where they did just that.

Repeating a circular logic argument proves nothing.

So why don’t you show me where they proved their contention of the National Socialist Left that the right-wing is fascist?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 7:46 PM

I swear, those of you who voted for Democrats are idiots. This is what you voted for, because you are about 1/4 as smart and special as your mommy said you were. Wait until your electronic medical records are complete.

Running for office? Challenging an “in” Democrat (even in a primary)? Your medical records will hit the front page.

Treasonous fools every one of you.

Spartacus on December 13, 2012 at 8:45 PM

Challenging an “in” Democrat (even in a primary)? Your medical records will hit the front page.

Treasonous fools every one of you.

Spartacus on December 13, 2012 at 8:45 PM

I don’t think they even have the slightest grasp the ramifications of medical records going public.

Your food-buying habits, along with all your other spending habits, will be linked with your medical records, necessary for further “evaluation” in the obamaville public clinics. <>

“Treasonous Fools” barely scratches the surface of how I feel about the fascist elite who used and manipulated our largely degraded, deluded, and illiterate society to put him in power.

Harbingeing on December 13, 2012 at 8:57 PM

I don’t think they even have the slightest grasp the ramifications of medical records going public.

Your food-buying habits, along with all your other spending habits, will be linked with your medical records, necessary for further “evaluation” in the obamaville public clinics.

“Treasonous Fools” barely scratches the surface of how I feel about the fascist elite who used and manipulated our largely degraded, deluded, and illiterate society to put him in power.

Harbingeing on December 13, 2012 at 8:57 PM

Remember the halcyon day of the Clinton administration and the missing personel files?

Those days won’t have anything on future candidates for political office – or political enemies for that matter.

Someone commented on the old saw ”If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about” – problem is, You don’t get to decide if you’re doing anything wrong – the enemy gets to decide that.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 9:13 PM

Well, we can start with Michelle Malkin and her book, “In Defense of Internment”. We can also point to hawkdriver and other so-called conservatives here who refuse to hold FDR and his interventionism accountable into provoking the attack on Pearl Harbor (and by extension, Wilson’s interventionism into WWI, which led to WWII).

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM

Now you’re just lying. The conversation was you being asked if you understood Japanese aggression and me agreeing FDR was a rank Socialist.

Tell another lie.

hawkdriver on December 13, 2012 at 9:15 PM

Hey…when they tell you to board a cattle car because they are moving you to a relocation camp, just get with the program! Be optimistic, everything will turn out OK! Whatever you do, do not oppose them. Be civil and, if slapped on your face, turn the other cheek…hundreds of times if necessary. Don’t even consider fighting…noo. This is what the Republican Party has devolved into [preposition at end of sentence].

Ceteris Paribus on December 14, 2012 at 12:20 AM

Tell another lie.

hawkdriver on December 13, 2012 at 9:15 PM

You are intellectually honest and always tell the truth, and would never deliberately misrepresent someone’s words or create straw man arguments.

Dante on December 14, 2012 at 12:28 AM

Ed, if you were dumb enough to support the truly horrible PATRIOT Act, then you should just STFU now and quit complaining. You sold out long ago: at the very least, admit that you made a terrible mistake.

Henry Bowman on December 14, 2012 at 12:30 AM

Barack Hussein Obama, Middle name Hussein and he still was elected. He is President because of affirmative action and now we are paying the price. I hear the Democrats(Communist) and the Left Wing Media talk about all of the wonderful things Barack Hussein Obama has done as President of The United States for the last four years and I wonder if they are living in a parallel universe. Gas cost twice as much, food prices have risen by as much as 25% and jobs have slowly disappeared. The Left Media keeps reporting how Barack Hussein Obama has created all of these jobs, wonderful, He went out in the streets and paid people to hire more workers. NO!! The big portion of jobs have been in the Government not private sector. They report 57,000 new jobs, but they don’t report the 75,000 jobs that were lost in the same month. The people re elected Barack Hussein Obama to four more years on the golf course. I am sorry, as bad as it sounds, Presidents DO need a means to relax and relieve stress. Bush road Mountain Bikes, Barack Hussein Obama chases a little white ball around the golf course and keeps his own score. I am not suggesting he might cheat at golf any more or less than he would at getting elected again. It is just a coincidence that nine voting precinct in Ohio had no votes except for Barack Hussein Obama, and in Florida they had 147% of registered voters who cast a ballot, but Holder is not allowing any investigation and the Republican Congress, the one with no balls, are doing nothing. Now Barack Hussein Obama is going to keep records on every American except the Democrat Registered and non registered Blacks. Gun registration, when it first came out, was to be kept for ninety days ONLY under penalty of Federal Law, HA HA HA HA. I bet the first background check that was done under that law is still in a file cabinet along with every other gun purchased since by that individual. I do not trust anyone in the Government any further than I can toss the Empire State Building. They are trained to lie to your face, most of them can look their Mother in the eye and lie about their birthday. So, when they say they are only collecting data on suspected terrorist I know they suspect everyone above the age of two. It is time to wipe Washington clean with the Constitution and give this Nation back to the People.

old war horse on December 14, 2012 at 1:32 AM

I’m sure John Yoo’s fingerprints are on that as well.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 5:12 PM

But…BOOOOOSHHH!!! was worse!!

Right, you obot troll?

You’re an idiot.

Solaratov on December 14, 2012 at 1:26 PM

I’ve never supported the Patriot Act.
And obviously this sort of thing is just an extension of that thinking.
I support an armed populace.
And a vigilant one.
And no, not a vigilante one.

Badger40 on December 15, 2012 at 8:12 AM

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