Great news: Your permanent record is now available on demand

posted at 10:01 am on December 13, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Remember when government needed something called a warrant or even probable cause to look at your records?  Good times, good times.  I’m nostalgic for the halcyon days of, er, February of this year, before the Attorney General of the United States signed off on an order allowing the government to access pretty much everything it wanted in the name of counterterrorism.  The Wall Street Journal found out about the order and got a FOIA request to force its exposure:

Top U.S. intelligence officials gathered in the White House Situation Room in March to debate a controversial proposal. Counterterrorism officials wanted to create a government dragnet, sweeping up millions of records about U.S. citizens—even people suspected of no crime.

Not everyone was on board. “This is a sea change in the way that the government interacts with the general public,” Mary Ellen Callahan, chief privacy officer of the Department of Homeland Security, argued in the meeting, according to people familiar with the discussions.

A week later, the attorney general signed the changes into effect.

Through Freedom of Information Act requests and interviews with officials at numerous agencies, The Wall Street Journal has reconstructed the clash over the counterterrorism program within the administration of President Barack Obama. The debate was a confrontation between some who viewed it as a matter of efficiency—how long to keep data, for instance, or where it should be stored—and others who saw it as granting authority for unprecedented government surveillance of U.S. citizens.

The rules now allow the little-known National Counterterrorism Center to examine the government files of U.S. citizens for possible criminal behavior, even if there is no reason to suspect them. That is a departure from past practice, which barred the agency from storing information about ordinary Americans unless a person was a terror suspect or related to an investigation.

Now, NCTC can copy entire government databases—flight records, casino-employee lists, the names of Americans hosting foreign-exchange students and many others. The agency has new authority to keep data about innocent U.S. citizens for up to five years, and to analyze it for suspicious patterns of behavior. Previously, both were prohibited. Data about Americans “reasonably believed to constitute terrorism information” may be permanently retained.

Well, hey, we can trust the American government to handle this properly, soberly, and with caution, right?  At least the data will stay with accountable US officials.  Whew.  That’s a load off of my mind — er, what’s that? Um …

The changes also allow databases of U.S. civilian information to be given to foreign governments for analysis of their own. In effect, U.S. and foreign governments would be using the information to look for clues that people might commit future crimes.

“It’s breathtaking” in its scope, said a former senior administration official familiar with the White House debate.

The good news: Saudi Arabia might now have all of our firearm registration data.  What could go wrong?

Say, remember when Congress used to be involved in writing laws and making policy in the US?  Good times, good times.  Perhaps Congress might want to investigate what the Department of Justice and the National Counterterrorism Center has been doing with the 4th Amendment.  Eric Holder should be subpoenaed and forced to testify under oath about his order, and find out whether Congress got consulted or bypassed entirely on this decision.

It’s interesting how all this came out after the election, huh?  Maybe the name “Julia” for one of Barack Obama’s campaign themes was well chosen.

Update: A couple of commenters blame the Patriot Act for this move.  However, the Patriot Act was passed by Congress, and has been extended and somewhat limited by Congress in multiple extensions.  Congress can repeal it at any time, just as they can any statute.  Regardless of the debatable wisdom of the Patriot Act — which I supported at those times — it didn’t give the executive branch carte blanche to access records without some sort of probable cause, nor share those records with foreign governments, and it didn’t get imposed unilaterally by the executive branch. This is a completely new abuse of power, and Congress should be furious over it, as should the rest of us.


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I think you misunderstand (no surprise) the term “one of us”…of course you want to be “one of us” or you wouldn’t post your thoughts on a forum of “us”…nice try to pretend, but you are posting a lot of posts not to be “one of us, or one of yours”…of course you won’t see the irony in your faux indignation.

right2bright on December 13, 2012 at 12:06 PM

You have it backwards.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:07 PM

…and other so-called conservatives here who refuse to hold FDR and his interventionism accountable into provoking the attack on Pearl Harbor…

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 11:06 AM

So, by your lights, NOT selling steel or oil to Japan was “interventionism”?

Not only are you an idiot…you’re stupid as well.

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 12:08 PM

I just want to say, for the record, that I think Mr. Obama is the best President we’ve ever had, and, from now on, I will be registering all of my firearms.

PrepperMark (formerly know as SailorMark)

SailorMark on December 13, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Third time’s a charm. I find it funny and curious that this site employs filters for non-profanity. Oh, well…

I just had a debate with my daughter’s libertarian club. The young ‘uns are an energetic bunch with not a whiff of history knowledge outside modern age. Precious few of them realize how similar their anarcho-capitalism is to the robber-baron feudal epoch of fractioned Europe.

Archivarix on December 13, 2012 at 12:01 PM

Link 1

Link 2

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:10 PM

[gotta ask him sometime how a 'capitalist' would enforce a contract in a state of 'anarchy'.]

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 11:56 AM

Russia pretty much degenerated into such a state just after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Ex soldiers, especially special forces types were hired as body guards and enforcers. That’s how they did it. Private armies.

Oldnuke on December 13, 2012 at 12:10 PM

Dante still won’t say he opposes Obama or his policies.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 12:11 PM

Apart from policies, part of it is also due to the stranglehold over the debates (with a complicit media, of course) in denying Americans other views, falsely presenting an either/or choice.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 11:09 AM

Absolutely! Ron Paul should have been invited to take part in the debates.

…………..Oh! Wait…

You’re an idiot.

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 12:11 PM

We are supposed to forget the GOP role in the massive new surveillance infrastructure? lmfao.

Next up: Medical records to be integrated into the database.

But but but… a lady in Ohio got the wrong medication once, so we had to “standardize” records in one database… For the children.

kunegetikos on December 13, 2012 at 12:07 PM

That’s past tense, man. Get with the times! Don’t you know Obama is in charge?

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:11 PM

What are the profound differences? Hell, what are any differences?

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 11:49 AM

Hell, I feel like I’m trying to explain color to a blind man.

You tell us, Dante – what conservative would EVER make a case for “spreading the wealth around”, or “If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.”, as Obama has? That’s just a couple of fundamental, organic differences between the left and right, off the top of my head, and there are myriad other self-evident differences that you are utterly blind to.

Hate to hit-n-run, but gotta go work for a while…

Harbingeing on December 13, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmm …
Since the NCIC (National Crime Information Center) computer files are supposedly off-limits and password-tracked, they’ll have to come up with something better than they have now.
Cops, et al, use it to track down and kill their exes, and “investigate” their potential “love interests” via the NCIC. No Can Do.
But then again, we are dealing with THE most corrupt administration, and “law enforcement” cabal in the history of the United States.
Bring It On and let’s get this over with …
Semper Paratus!
~(Ä)~

Karl Magnus on December 13, 2012 at 12:12 PM

I’m sure there are as many iterations of what people think anarcho-capitalism is as there are variations of conservatism or liberalism. I was just pointing out that you weren’t a professed liberal and provided a link to give folks some idea of what that is.

Oldnuke on December 13, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Oh, I agree. I hope I didn’t come across as critical of you; I appreciated the link. I just had some disagreements with it.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:13 PM

Lew!!!

Bmore on December 13, 2012 at 12:14 PM

Hell, I feel like I’m trying to explain color to a blind man.

You tell us, Dante – what conservative would EVER make a case for “spreading the wealth around”, or “If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.”, as Obama has? That’s just a couple of fundamental, organic differences between the left and right, off the top of my head, and there are myriad other self-evident differences that you are utterly blind to.

Hate to hit-n-run, but gotta go work for a while…

Harbingeing on December 13, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Meanwhile, the GOP ushers in Medicare Part D, has no interest in eliminating the income tax, is all for interventionist foreign policy, increases regulations, supports Keynesian economics, says Obamacare needs to be replaced (not eliminated, but replaced), and favors “foreign aid,” among other things. Please.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Why do all of you keep feeding this troll?

MikeinPRCA on December 13, 2012 at 12:16 PM

You tell us, Dante – what conservative would EVER make a case for “spreading the wealth around”, or “If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.”, as Obama has? That’s just a couple of fundamental, organic differences between the left and right, off the top of my head, and there are myriad other self-evident differences that you are utterly blind to.

Hate to hit-n-run, but gotta go work for a while…

Harbingeing on December 13, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Oh, by the way … you said there are differences between parties, but then these are not examples of parties; you shifted it to conservatives and Obama.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:17 PM

and even knew of the attack beforehand).

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 11:20 A

Unicorns told him, huh?

You might want to use more tinfoil on your hat. It’s too tight; and is cutting off the circulation.

And…you’re an idiot.

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 12:18 PM

Since i look upon the last election as the equivalent of a total surrender to an occupying socialist foreign power, the fact that all my records are now available for inspection hardly is shocking. No doubt this is part of the surrender negotiations.

MaiDee on December 13, 2012 at 12:19 PM

LEW!!!!!!!

Bmore on December 13, 2012 at 12:19 PM

Why do all of you keep feeding this troll?

MikeinPRCA on December 13, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Same insanity as feeding sequipedalian in the Crowder thread. on and on and on and on…

tom daschle concerned on December 13, 2012 at 12:20 PM

Hell, I feel like I’m trying to explain color to a blind man.

You tell us, Dante – what conservative would EVER make a case for “spreading the wealth around”, or “If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.”, as Obama has? That’s just a couple of fundamental, organic differences between the left and right, off the top of my head, and there are myriad other self-evident differences that you are utterly blind to.

Harbingeing on December 13, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Face facts folks – Dante does not have the honesty to address the point that was made and instead has to distract onto something else.

Can you honesty address that point are you just going to reinforce the point that you are a troll?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 12:20 PM

*** Serious question:

Is it possible, given human nature, that a technology exist and government (directly or through private proxies) refuse to employ it?

kunegetikos on December 13, 2012 at 12:23 PM

Oh, I agree. I hope I didn’t come across as critical of you; I appreciated the link. I just had some disagreements with it.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:13 PM

No, you didn’t come across as contentious or critical. I took it as just clarifying your point of view.

Oldnuke on December 13, 2012 at 12:23 PM

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Note this is typical of trolls – using weasel language like that to pretend to imply a certain viewpoint without having said so straight out.

Let’s see if he can answer this question minus the BS:

Are you opposed to Obama [Yes or NO]?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 12:24 PM

He never said he is opposed to Obama, just that it isn’t possible for him to be more opposed to Obama than he already is. Big difference.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 11:34 AM

As I said in my 11:31 post, it’s an ambiguous statement made to hide the truth.

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 12:24 PM

Funny, how we didn’t hear about this before the election

J_Crater on December 13, 2012 at 12:28 PM

Why do all of you keep feeding this troll?

MikeinPRCA on December 13, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Keeps him out of the other threads.

Bitter Clinger on December 13, 2012 at 12:28 PM

Note this is typical of trolls – using weasel language like that to pretend to imply a certain viewpoint without having said so straight out.

Let’s see if he can answer this question minus the BS:

Are you opposed to Obama [Yes or NO]?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 12:24 PM

Depends on what your definition of yes or no is.
*weasel

VegasRick on December 13, 2012 at 12:28 PM

Hell, I feel like I’m trying to explain color to a blind man.

You tell us, Dante – what conservative would EVER make a case for “spreading the wealth around”, or “If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.”, as Obama has? That’s just a couple of fundamental, organic differences between the left and right, off the top of my head, and there are myriad other self-evident differences that you are utterly blind to.

Harbingeing on December 13, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 12:28 PM

When does Obama comply?

Hening on December 13, 2012 at 12:31 PM

Why is everyone attacking Dante? Typical. We’re at each other’s throats while the bifactional ruling party’s boot crushes our collective throat. Just how they like it.

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 12:34 PM

I just want to say, for the record, that I think Mr. Obama is the best President we’ve ever had, and, from now on, I will be registering all of my firearms.

PrepperMark (formerly know as SailorMark)

SailorMark on December 13, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Actually, you should get rid of all of your firearms (just why do you have more than one?) in order to prove that you really are peaceful, law-abiding and truly progressive.
And….out of the goodness of my heart, I’d be willing to hold those firearms in a safe place. And I wouldn’t even charge very much to do that for you – or anyone who feels a need to rid themselves of evil guns; and safetify their homes. For the children, of course.

Feel free to ship them all to me at any time. Oh, don’t forget all that dangerous ammunition. Can’t have that lying around. Think of the children.

No, no. Don’t thank me. I’m just doing my duty as a good neighbor. ;-)

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM

He never said he is opposed to Obama, just that it isn’t possible for him to be more opposed to Obama than he already is. Big difference.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 11:34 AM

Never let it be said that our resident troll hasn’t learned his craft.

This is the same tactic used by politicians all the time. Sorry if anyone was offended that I said my opponent likes having sex with little boys. Never backs down from the initial charge just sorry that some might be offended with the words.

Dante very proudly attacked Mitt Romney with full knowledge that such attacks were supporting the rat-eared wonder. He didn’t care. His guy was sidelined without winning a single primary and so he pretty much decided to tell the GOP and conservatives to go to hell. He’s worse than a low-information voter because what we see as consequences was what the filthy bastard supported.

Happy Nomad on December 13, 2012 at 12:39 PM

Why is everyone attacking Dante? Typical. We’re at each other’s throats while the bifactional ruling party’s boot crushes our collective throat. Just how they like it.

Rae
on December 13, 2012 at 12:34 PM

Agree.

While I don’t support Dante’s views, I hate to see this type of intercommunity squabble going on which takes the focus off the real issue: What to do about this issue? Is there anything that can be done?

It seems that each site does this, but it surely detracts from the real issue and the conversation spirals down from there. Not of interest to me. At all. But, I’m just one person……

avagreen on December 13, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Why is everyone attacking Dante? Typical. We’re at each other’s throats while the bifactional ruling party’s boot crushes our collective throat. Just how they like it.

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 12:34 PM

So attacking a socialist isolationist is wrong now?

Happy Nomad on December 13, 2012 at 12:43 PM

Why is everyone attacking Dante? Typical. We’re at each other’s throats while the bifactional ruling party’s boot crushes our collective throat. Just how they like it.

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 12:34 PM

Because dante is an obot troll.

And an idiot.

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 12:45 PM

So, by your lights, NOT selling steel or oil to Japan was “interventionism”? Not only are you an idiot…you’re stupid as well. Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Well, when you think about it, the govt forbade American companies from selling things to Japanese companies, so that was sort of intervening if you think about it… but you didn’t think about it, so…

Akzed on December 13, 2012 at 12:47 PM

Behold Dante’s brethren:

It was an ugly spectacle in Lansing the other day. A Republican lawmaker predicted blood on the streets. Profanity-spewing Chamber of Commerce goons went after union demonstrators. Anarcho-capitalists tried to push their way into a state building protected by the police.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 12:49 PM

What goes around, comes around. This will just make it easier to hunt down the prog traitors when we (inevitably, nothing is forever) take back power. You’ll see some crying then. Only hope it’s in my lifetime.

teacherman on December 13, 2012 at 12:49 PM

While I don’t support Dante’s views, I hate to see this type of intercommunity squabble going on which takes the focus off the real issue: What to do about this issue? Is there anything that can be done? avagreen on December 13, 2012 at 12:42 PM

LOL! HotAir is being distracted from solving the nation’s problems!

“Knock it off you clowns or the country will go to hell!”

Akzed on December 13, 2012 at 12:50 PM

Take a look at the Homeland Security budget.

First there has been one form or another of the DHS since 1962 when they had a budget of $566 Million. They were rated 10th from the bottom in government funding.

In 1992 things changed through necessary. They became different and were funded $7.577 Billion. Then rated 13th from the bottom in government spending.

By 2012 things change. They are funded at $60.443 Billion. They are now rated 19th from the bottom.

For 2013 things change again. They are funded $55.345 Billion. A Drop??? Now rated 17th from the bottom. What happened?

Some of their funding is placed in other budgets. $17.9 Billion in the DoD Budget, $4.1 Billion in DHHS, $4.0 Billion in DOJ Budget and about $7.4 Billion in other departments.

This is a Department that has grown out of control. Congressional Oversight has not kept up with it’s responsibilities (nearly 100 committees exercise some form of concern). The growth rate and budget is being intentionally hidden (in the name of better accountability?) and the operational scope is be on the original intent.

This is Shadow Government Empire Building at it’s best.
1. Hide the budget.
2. Expand the scope.
3. Limit over sight.
4. Fog the issue.
5. Create more non accountable Czar positions then ever before.
6. Grid lock Congress
7. Create a subservient, dependent welfare state.
8. Identify a common enemy (The Rich) to blame.

This is not just an Obama problem, this has been a cancer eating at us from the inside for nearly 20 years and the last four Presidents.

jpcpt03 on December 13, 2012 at 12:51 PM

Well, when you think about it, the govt forbade American companies from selling things to Japanese companies, so that was sort of intervening if you think about it… but you didn’t think about it, so…

Akzed on December 13, 2012 at 12:47 PM

So, he intervened with American companies…and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to protect American businessmen and free trade.
Perhaps you might benefit from thinking about it a bit more.
Or, perhaps you’d rather engage in dante-esque conspiracy theories.

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 1:01 PM

Great news: Your permanent record is now available on demand

Neocons rejoice! They have been the primary proponents of the fascist police-state for over a decade and no doubt support this effort as well. If they oppose it it’s only because it’s a D effort instead of an R, but actually the neocons have been bipartisan supporters of the police-state.

The good news: Saudi Arabia might now have all of our firearm registration data. What could go wrong?

According to neocons Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are our good friends and allies. According to them, nations like Iraq, Iran, and even the American people, are our real enemies, rather than Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, the two nations most responsible for 9/11.

A Saudi “prince” is even part owner of the Fox Neocon Channel.

Reality is turned upside down by police-state supporting propaganda outlets.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:06 PM

So, he intervened with American companies…and the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor to protect American businessmen and free trade.
Perhaps you might benefit from thinking about it a bit more.
Or, perhaps you’d rather engage in dante-esque conspiracy theories.
Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 1:01 PM

I mentioned American AND JAPANESE companies, the latter of which were employed by the Japanese military.

Like I said…

Akzed on December 13, 2012 at 1:07 PM

Look at those rushing to make my point. Keep defending the progressive FDR, “conservatives”.

Link 1

Link 2

Link 3

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 1:08 PM

I mentioned American AND JAPANESE companies, the latter of which were employed by the Japanese military.

Like I said…

Akzed on December 13, 2012 at 1:07 PM

So, FDR prohibited Japanese military-owned companies from selling steel and oil to Japan.

Right.

As I said.

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 1:17 PM

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 1:08 PM

[gotta ask him sometime how a 'capitalist' would enforce a contract in a state of 'anarchy'.]

Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 11:56 AM

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 1:18 PM

So attacking a socialist isolationist is wrong now?

Happy Nomad on December 13, 2012 at 12:43 PM

Socialists don’t complain about things like this:

Meanwhile, the GOP ushers in Medicare Part D, has no interest in eliminating the income tax, is all for interventionist foreign policy, increases regulations, supports Keynesian economics, says Obamacare needs to be replaced (not eliminated, but replaced), and favors “foreign aid,” among other things. Please.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Point being, too often we’re fighting one another rather than focusing our righteous anger on the people responsible for this totalitarian state; the bifactional ruling party.

You know what’s really ironic? When Rand and a few others tried to prevent the legalization of indefinite detention of American citizens, the totalitarians in CONgress called THEM the terrorists coddlers and appeasers. From where I sit, those who support these repugnant “laws” are the terrorist appeasers and, furthermore, most of them are guilty under the NDAA. Bushbama’s wars have built Islamic Theocracies all over MENA, the people who were once our enemies are now our allies, they have nullified our rights (so they won’t hate for our freedoms anymore, I guess) via the Patriot Act and the NDAA (repeatedly), and bankrupted our country. They have given the terrorists everything they wanted.

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 1:19 PM

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 1:19 PM

You’re right. McCain and most of the Republicans in Congress voted to overturn freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution and Magna Carta, allowing indefinite detention of America Citizens without due process of law, (supposedly for supporting terrorism), but in fact many of these same Republicans supported arming Al Qaeda rebels in Libya and Syria. They support Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who were most responsible for the 9/11 attack but have violated their oaths to the Constitution to turn America into a police state like we’re the enemy, rather than our real enemies.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:27 PM

These Republicans who support arming terrorists should be indefinitely detained by the same un-American laws that they support. In the old days they would have been considered traitors.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:28 PM

You know what would be really cool?

Having a filter for mindless posts from folks who throw the word Neocon and the patriot act around like it has any bearing on the issue at hand.

That would clean up these threads right quick.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 1:30 PM

Having a filter for mindless posts from folks who throw the word Neocon and the patriot act around like it has any bearing on the issue at hand.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 1:30 PM

You should read more, Chip, neocons are right-wing (some would say left-wing) fascists who are responsible for the booming police-state.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Thread brought to you by, Lewcifer at Dantes inferno™

Bmore on December 13, 2012 at 1:41 PM

.

Bmore on December 13, 2012 at 1:41 PM

neocons are right-wing (some would say left-wing) fascists who are responsible for the booming police-state.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Well I must say that with such a glowingly positive description, it’s a wonder why more people don’t take on that label.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 1:42 PM

Good point Chip. From what I can tell Neocon means whatever the author of the statement wants it to mean. I did bumble around in Dante’s links though and discovered his links link to stuff I follow as well. I happened to find a book called the Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn in my parents house when we were downsizing them as Obama was running for president. Wow! I found Obama’s roadmap!

My dad lived his entire life a traditional conservative, meaning he worked, lived within his means and provided well for our family. One of the things he taught me as a kid was if I wanted something to wait a few days and see if I still did. If I really really wanted it then wait two weeks.

He could not stand LBJ but had high praise for FDR (“He got us through the way”). I pointed out some stuff in that book that countered what he had always thought about the man. In our last political discussion he made the prescient statement…”Daniel, socialism is not against the law if that’s what the people want”. As little as he seemed to know about FDR he saw what was coming just over a year ago.

DanMan on December 13, 2012 at 1:49 PM

way = war

DanMan on December 13, 2012 at 1:50 PM

Well I must say that with such a glowingly positive description, it’s a wonder why more people don’t take on that label.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 1:42 PM

Nobody calls themselves fascist anymore, Chip, does that mean fascists don’t exist?

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:52 PM

Good point Chip. From what I can tell Neocon means whatever the author of the statement wants it to mean.

DanMan on December 13, 2012 at 1:49 PM

For the unenlightened, neo means “new”. So a neo-conservative is a new kind of conservative. The reputation that they have earned for themselves as proponents of our misdirected wars against people who didn’t attack us on 9/11, and turning America into a fascist police state, is well deserved.

If neocons don’t want to be identified by their actions they should stop acting that way. If neocons don’t want people to think they’re fascists, they should stop promoting fascism.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:57 PM

So, FDR prohibited Japanese military-owned companies from selling steel and oil to Japan. Right. As I said. Solaratov on December 13, 2012 at 1:17 PM

I know this is complicated so I don’t mind spelling it out for you. Actually it isn’t complicated, you’re just pretending not to get it so you don’t look as stupid as you apparently are, but anyhow, you see, American companies were selling scrap iron and petroleum products inter alia to Japanese companies that were being put to use in the expansionist projects of the Japanese military, which basically ran the government in Japan. In other words, we denied Japan the raw materials to conduct aggression against their neighbors.

To show our disapproval of Japanese military activities e.g. in China, our government forced American companies to discontinue this trade. This intervention in that trade was harmful to Japanese hegemonic projects in the Pacific, and to show their disapproval of our interventionist policy toward them, and to prohibit US naval intervention in their projects, they attacked our fleet at Pearl Harbor. After the attack the embarked on their plan of conquest, hoping that by the time we were able to respond militarily their conquests would be considered one big fait accompli, their newly subjugated nations would supply the raw material we had denied them, and we would be unable to do anything about it.

If this is all news to you, you’re an ignoramus. If you truly don’t see how interrupting their trade was an intervention in their affairs, fairly or not, then you are indeed mentally challenged. I think rather that you are just a fraud who can’t admit that he’s wrong.

Akzed on December 13, 2012 at 2:04 PM

Eric Holder should be subpoenaed and forced to testify under oath about his order, and find out whether Congress got consulted or bypassed entirely on this decision.

SIGH. Yeah, okay. In theory it’s nice, but really that’s just a make work program that will result in absolutely nothing useful.

kim roy on December 13, 2012 at 2:09 PM

Regardless of the debatable wisdom of the Patriot Act — which I supported at those times — it didn’t give the executive branch carte blanche to access records without some sort of probable cause, nor share those records with foreign governments, and it didn’t get imposed unilaterally by the executive branch. This is a completely new abuse of power, and Congress should be furious over it, as should the rest of us.

TPA did not authorize of what resulted from it’s implementation. It was the knock at the door before they moved, wiping their feet on the Fourth Amendment as they barge into your privacy.

It feels a bit naive to ignore the tide of privacy breeches. The matrix of tools now available for the feds to ignore your rights is in place. When one means fails there is a backup.

Ben Franklin, security, blah-blah.

Capitalist Hog on December 13, 2012 at 2:10 PM

That’s past tense, man. Get with the times! Don’t you know Obama is in charge?

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 12:11 PM

Yes, and the Azzhole in Chief ordered the union workers who shared the info rehired.

Don’t forget that Michelle Obama, at the tune of $360,000/yr salary designed a process to dump patients from hospitals, which is illegla in the US.

Fruch you all, all of you who brung this charlatanich circus. May you and your families suffer into oblivion, hungry, in the cold/dark. YOU deserve NO less. God damn you all!

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Don’t forget that Michelle Obama, at the tune of $360,000/yr salary designed a process to dump patients from hospitals, which is illegla illegal in the US.

Fruch Fluke you all, in a very bad way, all of you who brung this charlatanic circus. May you and your families suffer into oblivion, hungry, in the cold/dark. YOU deserve NO less. God damn you all!

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 2:17 PM

These Republicans who support arming terrorists should be indefinitely detained by the same un-American laws that they support. In the old days they would have been considered traitors.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:28 PM

Yes, and so would Obama. All of you who brung him, be destroyed, along with the stupid land.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 2:19 PM

While I don’t support Dante’s views, I hate to see this type of intercommunity squabble going on which takes the focus off the real issue: What to do about this issue? Is there anything that can be done? avagreen on December 13, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Fluke Dante, in a bad way. He is an Obama-azzlicker, in disguise, pretending to be libertarian, or ‘better’, libertine. He loves Obama.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 2:21 PM

Dante still won’t say he opposes Obama or his policies.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 12:11 PM

He can’t denounce the hand he voted for, and which feeds him.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 2:23 PM

Um, wow.

k, seriously – when does the war begin? This, among so many other things, is way beyond the pale.

Midas on December 13, 2012 at 2:30 PM

Congress should be furious over it, as should the rest of us.

I think Congress should be furious that they are totally irrelevant now. I suspect the only reason they don’t object is that they still get to shovel money in their pockets.

Dan_Yul on December 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM

I think Congress should be furious that they are totally irrelevant now. I suspect the only reason they don’t object is that they still get to shovel money in their pockets.

Dan_Yul on December 13, 2012 at 2:32 PM

To Hades with all of them, and all who brung them.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 2:35 PM

If you want the media to look out for our civil liberties elect a republican.

agmartin on December 13, 2012 at 2:41 PM

From what I can tell Neocon means whatever the author of the statement wants it to mean.

DanMan on December 13, 2012 at 1:49 PM

Then maybe you should do a little research into neoconservatism since you don’t know what it means.

Here’s a starting point for you:

An Introduction to Neoconservatism

Link 2

Even I, frequently referred to as the “godfather” of all those neocons, have had my moments of wonderment. A few years ago I said (and, alas, wrote) that neoconservatism had had its own distinctive qualities in its early years, but by now had been absorbed into the mainstream of American conservatism. I was wrong, and the reason I was wrong is that, ever since its origin among disillusioned liberal intellectuals in the 1970s, what we call neoconservatism has been one of those intellectual undercurrents that surface only intermittently. It is not a “movement,” as the conspiratorial critics would have it. Neoconservatism is what the late historian of Jacksonian America, Marvin Meyers, called a “persuasion,” one that manifests itself over time, but erratically, and one whose meaning we clearly glimpse only in retrospect.

Viewed in this way, one can say that the historical task and political purpose of neoconservatism would seem to be this: to convert the Republican party, and American conservatism in general, against their respective wills, into a new kind of conservative politics suitable to governing a modern democracy. That this new conservative politics is distinctly American is beyond doubt. There is nothing like neoconservatism in Europe, and most European conservatives are highly skeptical of its legitimacy. The fact that conservatism in the United States is so much healthier than in Europe, so much more politically effective, surely has something to do with the existence of neoconservatism. But Europeans, who think it absurd to look to the United States for lessons in political innovation, resolutely refuse to consider this possibility.

Neoconservatism is the first variant of American conservatism in the past century that is in the “American grain.” It is hopeful, not lugubrious; forward-looking, not nostalgic; and its general tone is cheerful, not grim or dyspeptic. Its 20th-century heroes tend to be TR, FDR, and Ronald Reagan. Such Republican and conservative worthies as Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, Dwight Eisenhower, and Barry Goldwater are politely overlooked. Of course, those worthies are in no way overlooked by a large, probably the largest, segment of the Republican party, with the result that most Republican politicians know nothing and could not care less about neoconservatism. Nevertheless, they cannot be blind to the fact that neoconservative policies, reaching out beyond the traditional political and financial base, have helped make the very idea of political conservatism more acceptable to a majority of American voters. Nor has it passed official notice that it is the neoconservative public policies, not the traditional Republican ones, that result in popular Republican presidencies.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 2:51 PM

If you want the media to look out for our civil liberties elect a republican.

agmartin on December 13, 2012 at 2:41 PM

History shows they only pretend to care, just like the D and R parties whose survival depends on creating a police-state to preserve their crony-capitalist corruption.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Dante

…<—…*just wondering*…why do you guys bother with that fluken idiot?

KOOLAID2 on December 13, 2012 at 2:52 PM

Update: A couple of commenters blame the Patriot Act for this move. However, the Patriot Act was passed by Congress, and has been extended and somewhat limited by Congress in multiple extensions. Congress can repeal it at any time, just as they can any statute. Regardless of the debatable wisdom of the Patriot Act — which I supported at those times — it didn’t give the executive branch carte blanche to access records without some sort of probable cause, nor share those records with foreign governments, and it didn’t get imposed unilaterally by the executive branch. This is a completely new abuse of power, and Congress should be furious over it, as should the rest of us.

Who is blaming the Patriot Act for this move? I missed that. I was pointing out your hypocrisy when it comes to Constitutional rights.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 2:53 PM

Congress should be furious over it

That would assume that Congress both understands their Constitutional duties and powers *and* desire to jealously guard their powers among the branches. Good luck with that, Ed Diogenes.

GWB on December 13, 2012 at 2:54 PM

Just checking in…

I see that Dante is still ranting about BOOSH!!! and the dreaded NEOCONS!!!.

Seems he still hasn’t gotten around to saying he actually opposes Obama or any of his policies.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 3:02 PM

…<—…*just wondering*…why do you guys bother with that fluken idiot?

KOOLAID2 on December 13, 2012 at 2:52 PM

I like Dante in spite of many disagreements because he is on the side of liberty over tyranny.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:04 PM

I like Dante in spite of many disagreements because he is on the side of liberty over tyranny.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:04 PM

You are on the side of such. You deride both parties equally.

Dante is an Obam azzlicker. Open your eyes. He is not like you.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:16 PM

Well I must say that with such a glowingly positive description, it’s a wonder why more people don’t take on that label.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 1:42 PM

Nobody calls themselves fascist anymore, Chip, does that mean fascists don’t exist?

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 1:52 PM

I didn’t ask if something exists anymore but whether people describe themselves as such.

You’re using intellectually lazy terminology to distract and muddy the waters.

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 3:22 PM

<—…*just wondering*…why do you guys bother with that fluken idiot?

KOOLAID2 on December 13, 2012 at 2:52 PM

I like Dante in spite of many disagreements because he is on the side of liberty over tyranny.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:04 PM

Is he opposed to Obama?

As in:

Note this is typical of trolls – using weasel language like that to pretend to imply a certain viewpoint without having said so straight out.

Let’s see if he can answer this question minus the BS:

Are you opposed to Obama [Yes or NO]?

Chip on December 13, 2012 at 3:24 PM

I see that Dante is still ranting about BOOSH!!! and the dreaded NEOCONS!!!.

steebo77 on December 13, 2012 at 3:02 PM

You don’t read very well. Not once have I mentioned neoconservatives in this thread until just above when someone said they didn’t know what it was. It’s a shame you have to make things up and resort to juvenalia. I guess you are overcompensating.

Dante on December 13, 2012 at 3:24 PM

May you and your families suffer into oblivion, hungry, in the cold/dark. YOU deserve NO less. God damn you all!

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 2:17 PM

That’s going to happen. The crash is coming and the Obamabots will suffer but remain ignorant as to the reason. Unfortunately the rest of us will suffer right along with them even though we will understand why.

Oldnuke on December 13, 2012 at 3:29 PM

I like Dante in spite of many disagreements because he is on the side of liberty over tyranny.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:04 PM

…I know!…you like to hold his ba11s!

KOOLAID2 on December 13, 2012 at 3:31 PM

My 23-y/o son describes himself as an anarcho-capitalist, but he couldn’t really describe clearly about what it is. Maddeningly he does make the same repubs=dems arguments (as Dante) to me that simply make no sense on many levels. How these guys can completely be blind to the profound differences in world outlook between the left and right mystifies me.

Harbingeing on December 13, 2012 at 11:48 AM

Harbingeing… I think I understand what you are saying, there are obviously large differences on many topics, e.g. the role of religion in the public sphere, regulations, abortion, defense spending, taxes. (I wouldn’t include ‘fiscal responsibility’ on that list).

But what we’re really talking about here is civil liberties and the security state, specifically avoiding a 1984/Gestapo future. And on that point, what is the difference? Both parties supported the Patriot Act, with Feingold being the only Senator to vote against, bless his little soul. Both parties supported NDAA. Obviously we all remember the post-9/11 environment that caused many to lose their heads and give up “essential liberty for temporary security”. Bush started this, Obama continues it, Dems and GOP alike cheerleading.

So, I agree with Dante and your son on civil liberties (not necessarily on “anarcho/capitalistism”, as I’m not clear on what that implies). And on that topic, a president Paul or Johnson would be much, much better, as at least they claim to give a damn about civil liberties.

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 3:31 PM

Dante is an Obam azzlicker. Open your eyes. He is not like you.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:16 PM

You may be right, I’m not certain. If it’s true that he only condemns the R party but exonerates the D then that is oddly suspicious, I admit, but he seems like a genuine advocate of ultra-small government to me. Perhaps he prefers the D Party over the R but I doubt he is secretly a statist Democrat who embraces their big-gov policies. If he has refused in the past to condemn the D party for their violation, my guess is that he has some reason other than supporting the Democrat agenda.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:38 PM

…I know!…you like to hold his ba11s!

KOOLAID2 on December 13, 2012 at 3:31 PM

I see, so by defending somebody here on the grounds that they appear to be an advocate of liberty against tyranny I’ve made myself your target. That reveals a lot about you, Koolaid drinker.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:40 PM

Perhaps he prefers the D Party over the R but I doubt he is secretly a statist Democrat who embraces their big-gov policies. If he has refused in the past to condemn the D party for their violation, my guess is that he has some reason other than supporting the Democrat agenda.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:38 PM

Tyranny with nuance…oh, good one of yore…how sad to read this, for you and the land. Good night. Rome went slower.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:44 PM

Unfortunately the rest of us will suffer right along with them even though we will understand why.

Oldnuke on December 13, 2012 at 3:29 PM

Honorable Oldnuke, starve the Looters (as in gov’t stealers and thugs), always.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:46 PM

I see, so by defending somebody here on the grounds that they appear to be an advocate of liberty against tyranny I’ve made myself your target. That reveals a lot about you, Koolaid drinker.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:40 PM

Kool was uncool.

Tyranny and liberty are indignant. NO one who votes for/promotes Obama is for either.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Tyranny with nuance…oh, good one of yore…how sad to read this, for you and the land. Good night. Rome went slower.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:44 PM

I have no idea what you’re even talking about. Sad to read what? Sad to read that there are some libertarians on the D side as well as the R? That is a fact. If you have a bad opinion of me because I repeat facts then so be it.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:48 PM

Tyranny and liberty are indignant. NO one who votes for/promotes Obama is for either.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Nobody who votes for/promotes Romney does either, by your logic.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:49 PM

If you want the media to look out for our civil liberties elect a republican.

agmartin on December 13, 2012 at 2:41 PM

History shows they only pretend to care, just like the D and R parties whose survival depends on creating a police-state to preserve their crony-capitalist corruption.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Yup. Brian Doherty said at a CATO talk that the left obviously doesn’t care about civil liberties at all. (Even endless war is cool with them now.) All they really care about is the redistribution of wealth.

As long as we’re all equal subjects, whatever dystopian police state hell Washington is cooking up for us to suffer under is fine by them.

It’s really quite the legacy O Duce has created for the totalitarians in the Blue Jerseys. The Democrat Party will forever be known as the party of indefinite detention, kill lists and extrajudicial assassinations (complete with a Death from Above Rule Book to pass on to his successors). It was inevitable, I suppose, for them to finally bare their totalitarian teeth for all to see, since it’s how leftists roll! (See the history of the world.)

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 3:52 PM

Nobody who votes for/promotes Romney does either, by your logic.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:49 PM

Sad to read that there are some libertarians on the D side as well as the R? That is a fact.

FloatingRock on December 13, 2012 at 3:48 PM

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 3:59 PM

The Democrat Party will forever be known as the party of indefinite detention, kill lists and extrajudicial assassinations [...]

Rae on December 13, 2012 at 3:52 PM

Credit where credit is due, indefinite detention is Bush’s baby. Kill lists and assassinations most certainly Obama’s. There’s plenty of credit for everybody to share.

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:00 PM

FR, all know that I dislike Romney, from 2007 on. Just ask any Romnybot…pls. don’t, because it c/b a long day.

However, one of these two man is for the fast destruction of the US, as you know her. May it be so!

Oldnuke, sorry, but all have to witness it. The majority wanted it, freeley. Thus, the land deserves NO less. May all who brung Obama, and their families be utterly destroyed. May the others fend for themselves and always starve the Looters.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Credit where credit is due, indefinite detention is Bush’s baby. Kill lists and assassinations most certainly Obama’s. There’s plenty of credit for everybody to share.

zarathustra on December 13, 2012 at 4:00 PM

Indeed, indeed, but the leftists now approve of anything Obama does.

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:04 PM

these two man men

Schadenfreude on December 13, 2012 at 4:04 PM

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