Second look at tax hikes on everyone?

posted at 7:41 pm on November 29, 2012 by Allahpundit

Lottttt of support in the comments to the last thread for the “let it burn” option. Here’s a variation on it from Jim Geraghty that I kinda like, just because it would force the public in the starkest way to face the consequences of a metastasizing entitlement state:

At this moment, Republicans in Congress need to examine which presents a more dire threat to the country:

A) A double-dip recession driven by the sequester and the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, or

B) the public’s belief (verified through polling) that our giant debt, our ticking time bomb of entitlements, and our gargantuan government can be solved by “asking the richest Americans to pay a little bit more,” as Obama insists.

Option A is terrible, but Option B is the giant locked door blocking all of the real solutions.

So if we must have tax hikes, let the tax cuts for every income level expire and let everyone of every income level pay higher taxes. Destroy the illusion among so many voters that they can get all the government they want without paying more in taxes.

You want to continue putting off reforms to Medicare and Social Security while making only token cuts to the rest of the budget? No problem. But if we can’t have fiscal responsibility on the front end, by cutting spending, then we’ll have some measure of it on the back end by squeezing a ton of new revenue from the middle class. Everyone in government understands that the rich can’t pay for all of this; if you want to keep the popping-and-wheezing Great Society machine duct-taped together for a few years longer, you’ll need to start soaking average Americans. Democrats would prefer a VAT because it can disguise future tax hikes better, but one way or another Joe Sixpack has to start meeting his obligations. The GOP can make it happen on January 1 simply by walking away.

This isn’t a true “let it burn” plan. “Let it burn” calls for giving Obama whatever he wants so that he can’t blame Republicans for anything that happens later. That would mean hiking taxes on the rich and no one else because O’s not — yet — at the point of informing the middle class that they’ll have to pay more to enact his agenda. By contrast, if the GOP followed the Geraghty plan and let tax hikes on the middle class take effect, O would merrily blame them for it while privately rejoicing that the Overton window had been moved back towards higher rates on working-class Americans. Likely end result: The GOP would be brutalized in the midterms, no doubt with some Democrats campaigning on a plan to (temporarily) lower the new middle-class rates if elected in exchange for even higher rates on the rich — and no entitlement reform, of course. But Geraghty realizes all that. He’s playing a long game of “let it burn” here: At some point, Democratic tax-and-spend policies will squeeze so many people and cause so many problems that the public will revolt and turn back towards Republicans with a mandate to undo it. The “blue social model,” in Walter Russell Mead’s term, will eventually collapse because the left ultimately can’t make the math add up. But how long are you willing to wait? The public’s belief in soaking the rich as a solution to core budgetary problems is one of the sturdiest in American political life, rivaled only by their belief that defense spending and foreign aid are something like four-fifths of the federal budget or whatever. Democrats will put off the reckoning on entitlements as long as they can, until a Grecian debacle finally forces their hand. (That’s the flaw in my own fiscal-cliff strategy, of course. I said the GOP should offer tax hikes on the rich in exchange for immediate entitlement reform. But why would Obama agree to that when he knows the public is kidding itself about both parts of that equation?) Are you prepared to wait that long for a mandate to fix it? Through how many electoral cycles should the “let it burn” strategy be carried out (and why vote for a Republican committed to that strategy in 2014 instead of a Democrat)? Is it worth watching lopsided Democratic majorities in Congress pass single-payer health care in the interim?

The fact that the entire “fiscal cliff” clusterfark revolves around taxes instead of entitlement reform is proof enough of how deep the denial runs here. If you follow the “let it burn” approach on the assumption that the public will finally wake up and reach for the fire hose when it feels a little heat, before everything burns down, then you have more faith in the public than I do. Reminds me a little, in fact, of the assumption that a “starve the beast” approach to taxes would eventually force government to shrink. Not so, as it turns out: The beast doesn’t starve, it just borrows and continues to gorge. That’s how we got here. And on that note, enjoy insane person Jay Carney insisting that it’s “deeply irresponsible” to want spending cuts as a condition of raising America’s debt ceiling ever onward to infinity. Click the image to watch.


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This B-astard is what a majority of Americans voted for, so let them have it.

VorDaj on November 29, 2012 at 7:46 PM

a “starve the beast” approach

That’s because we never starved the Beast. Implicit in starving the beast is no more borrowing and no more debt ceiling increases. By allowing those two to continue for 30 years the beast wasn’t brought to its senses.

chemman on November 29, 2012 at 7:47 PM

Walk away, let all the taxes go up, let it burn…

The Democrats own it…

Khun Joe on November 29, 2012 at 7:48 PM

How about we go after those who pay no taxes at all.

In my opinion if you get a pay check – you should pay taxes.

gophergirl on November 29, 2012 at 7:48 PM

The pain train is coming. The sooner it arrives, the sooner we can avoid something far far worse.

Let it all expire.

Chuck Schick on November 29, 2012 at 7:48 PM

Why Not? We’ll still vote for a Democrat or Republican either way. We will never learn.

dom89031 on November 29, 2012 at 7:48 PM

Allah,

On this joke of an offer, the GOP should immediately put out three options for the president.

Option 1: Raise debt ceiling in exchange for commensurate cuts in spending. Ex: Raise it a trillion, cut a trillion over 10 yrs.

Option 2: Tax rate increase for a legitimate and immediate reform of all entitlements

Option 3: Tax revenue increase through closing loopholes and deductions for spending cuts of the same magnitude. Ex. Raise taxes 1 trillion, cut spending a 1 trillion over ten years.

Make these options public as acceptable rules for negotiation and if the President rejects it, go over the damn cliff. It’s on him.

milemarker2020 on November 29, 2012 at 7:49 PM

Just for reference people:

Cox and Archer: Why $16 Trillion Only Hints at the True U.S. Debt
Hiding the government’s liabilities from the public makes it seem that we can tax our way out of mounting deficits. We can’t.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323353204578127374039087636.html?mod=hp_opinion

The actual liabilities of the federal government—including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees’ future retirement benefits—already exceed $86.8 trillion, or 550% of GDP. For the year ending Dec. 31, 2011, the annual accrued expense of Medicare and Social Security was $7 trillion. Nothing like that figure is used in calculating the deficit. In reality, the reported budget deficit is less than one-fifth of the more accurate figure.

Colbyjack on November 29, 2012 at 7:50 PM

The only reason a man like Obama with the terrible economic policies he has rammed down our throats got reelected is because there was no pain. Just acquired $6,400 billion in new debt. Pain is fundamental to human survival. Pain is required and if Saint Clinton’s times were so good, why not bring all rates back to that Utopia?

jukin3 on November 29, 2012 at 7:50 PM

All for it. Pull the lever! DO IT NOW!

astonerii on November 29, 2012 at 7:51 PM

We already went over the fiscal cliff: November 6, 2012. A day that will live in infamy.

starboardhelm on November 29, 2012 at 7:51 PM

I can’t believe Obama would think he could raise the debt ceiling without congressional approval. This is what happens when the people vote for free stuff.

I agree, let everyone pay and republicans vote “present” or not at all. Make Obama own it!

carolt2 on November 29, 2012 at 7:52 PM

The GOP should ask that spending be returned to pre-stimulus levels. It’s outrages that the stimulus is asked into the budget every year now. Where is all the money going? The Dems raised spending by almost 1/3 and now claim we can’t make any cuts? WTH?

Charlemagne on November 29, 2012 at 7:52 PM

“metro fire dept, what is the address of the fire?”

CLICK

hillsoftx on November 29, 2012 at 7:52 PM

Gridlock – it’s what’s for dinner. All it needs to “work” is a $2 trillion increase in the debt ceiling to push that to January 2015, which ironically is far less than what Obama’s plan would require.

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 7:53 PM

let it go “poof”…why delay the inevitable?

we have reached rock bottom and are starting to dig.

teejk on November 29, 2012 at 7:53 PM

Here’s a variation on it from Jim Geraghty that I kinda like, just because it would force the public in the starkest way to face the consequences of a metastasizing entitlement state

Geraghty is just bring up the rear. Arnold Ahlert already covered it and better.

I have a suggestion for the Republicans, one they won’t hear from anyone else: give Barry and Company everything they want, without an iota of resistance. Let ‘em raise taxes and the debt ceiling, gut the military, and run up trillions of dollars of additional deficits and debt. Then stand back, and let an utterly corrupt media chronicle the demise–without being able to pin an ounce of the ensuing socialist catastrophe on an “obstructionist” GOP.

Harry Reid wants to end the filibuster? Tell him it won’t be necessary. For the next four years, Republicans will do what a certain Senator from Illinois made a career of doing: they will simply vote “present” on every bill put before them in both houses of Congress. In effect, give Democrats they same unassailable majority they had in 2008–the same one that led directly to the passage of ObamaCare. Any attempt to meet Democrats “half-way” is a fool’s errand. There is no split-the-difference, get along to go along, compromise that can be reached between tyranny and freedom. With respect to the rule of law and the Constitution, you’re either in or you’re out.A nation is either solvent or bankrupt. It is either exceptional or ordinary. The American majority voted for tyranny, bankruptcy and mediocrity.

Give the people what they want–until they can’t stand it anymore.

VorDaj on November 29, 2012 at 7:54 PM

As of November 6th, the takers have far more to lose than the makers.

Embrace the cliff.
LOVE the cliff!

jukin3 on November 29, 2012 at 7:54 PM

How about we go after those who pay no taxes at all.

In my opinion if you get a pay check – you should pay taxes.

gophergirl on November 29, 2012 at 7:48 PM

In my opinion, if you are enjoying the fruits of the nation you should be paying taxes.

If you buy anything or any service, pay a percentage of the price for that. You enjoy the product or service, and the pay for the nation that protects your rights.

Get rid of all types of income taxes completely. This has the beneficial effect of making businesses here competitive with businesses every where.

astonerii on November 29, 2012 at 7:54 PM

If you follow the “let it burn” approach on the assumption that the public will finally wake up and reach for the fire hose when it feels a little heat, before everything burns down, then you have more faith in the public than I do. Reminds me a little, in fact, of the assumption that a “starve the beast” approach to taxes would eventually force government to shrink.

Perhaps we should not only “let it burn” but throw a little ‘going John Galt’ gasoline on the fire as well.

Chip on November 29, 2012 at 7:54 PM

Heh. November criminals.

Seth Halpern on November 29, 2012 at 7:55 PM

Is it worth offering Clinton tax rates and Clinton spending levels?

earlgrey133 on November 29, 2012 at 7:56 PM

Allah,

On this joke of an offer, the GOP should immediately put out three options for the president.

Option 1: Raise debt ceiling in exchange for commensurate cuts in spending. Ex: Raise it a trillion, cut a trillion over 10 yrs.

Option 2: Tax rate increase for a legitimate and immediate reform of all entitlements

Option 3: Tax revenue increase through closing loopholes and deductions for spending cuts of the same magnitude. Ex. Raise taxes 1 trillion, cut spending a 1 trillion over ten years.

Make these options public as acceptable rules for negotiation and if the President rejects it, go over the damn cliff. It’s on him.

milemarker2020 on November 29, 2012 at 7:49 PM

Point of order – they already offered all three, the first last year and the last two this month. Obama’s first $1.6 trillion tax hike demand for “some” spending cuts was a belated response to the first, and his current $1.6 trilloin demand for NO spending cuts was an immediate response to the last two.

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 7:56 PM

You want the spending? You get the taxes.

EddieC on November 29, 2012 at 7:57 PM

The beast doesn’t starve, it just borrows and continues to gorge. That’s how we got here.

More specifically, the beast kills future generations.

Im all for Option A.

Let the takers and moochers feel the pain of the producers. Not the same pain but buy-in to the idea that we are one society.

Happy Nomad on November 29, 2012 at 7:59 PM

The GOP should ask that spending be returned to pre-stimulus levels. It’s outrages that the stimulus is asked into the budget every year now. Where is all the money going? The Dems raised spending by almost 1/3 and now claim we can’t make any cuts? WTH?

Charlemagne on November 29, 2012 at 7:52 PM

Been there, done that, rejected by Dingy Harry and SCOAMF.

That’s not to say they shouldn’t go back there.

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 7:59 PM

I’ve come around to it. The voting majority made the decision that mediocrity is acceptable for all of us. Why should those who knew better (net taxpayers) suffer the consequences only?

anuts on November 29, 2012 at 8:00 PM

Taxing government benefits. Just maybe crazy enough to work these days.

jukin3 on November 29, 2012 at 8:00 PM

The inflation that will come with trillions in deficits in perpetuity is, in essence, a consumption tax that will be regressive. Let them have their deficits and let the poor see the consequences of their electoral decisions. We are already seeing it in food prices.

xuyee on November 29, 2012 at 8:02 PM

Make liberals pay out of their own pockets for once. That’s going to a brat for them when their precious Obamacare finally kicks in.

Conservatives are easily willing to unlimber their own wallets for someone in need, but liberals always scream for everyone else to pay for what they demand.

In a sad way, Obamacare makes us all a little more equal.

Liam on November 29, 2012 at 8:03 PM

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 7:56 PM

Understood, but just as you said, they did this last year. At this point, it’s now a media battle. We all know Obama is a committed leftist with nothing to lose now. The GOP has to get these options out in front of the public and the media to show that they are willing to give Obama his damn tax increases, in exchange for fiscal prudence.

Everyone keeps talking about the 1990s except the GOP, despite the fact the GOP was the reason Clinton was fiscally responsible. Obama would have the public believe that it was the tax increases in the 1990s that exclusively led to the surpluses and economic growth. The GOP needs to step up and talk about the capital gains tax cut and the spending controls implemented in the 1990s too, that are going up in smoke with Obama’s proposal.

If you want the 1990s, you need spending controls and you need to have favorable tax treatment on investments (Capital gains and dividends). Obama is proposing rates on the top higher than the 1990s and taxes on investments plus more stimulus. The game now is a media one.

milemarker2020 on November 29, 2012 at 8:03 PM

From Boehners website,back when on Cuts,and dealing with Snakes!


Revealed! Democrats’ Playbook for Blocking Spending Cuts Needed to Boost the Economy
March 30, 2011
******************
******************

For those of you following along with the budget negotiations in Washington, here’s a handy look at the playbook Democrats are using to block spending cuts needed to end the uncertainty facing job creators:
*************

STEP 1: Refuse to pass a bill that cuts spending and funds the government for the rest of this fiscal year. This step is right out of 2010 when Democrats didn’t even propose a budget (the reason we’re in this mess to begin with), leaving the government spending binge on auto-pilot. The House took a step toward fixing this nearly 40 days ago when it passed H.R. 1 – but again, to date, the Senate still hasn’t passed a bill of its own. If you think back to elementary school, both houses of Congress have to pass a bill in order for it to become a law.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So every time you see Democratic leaders on TV talking about a government shutdown (step 2) or labeling spending cuts as “extreme” (step 3), remember, Senate Democrats haven’t even passed a bill.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

STEP 2: Root for a government shutdown. Call it the “Howard Dean Rule.” The former chairman of the DNC and “a de facto head of his party’s left wing“ told National Journal that Democrats should be “quietly rooting” for a government shutdown. Well, they’re listening. Washington Democrats have been ignoring Americans who want spending cuts and cheering for a shutdown for months. Aides to Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) called a shutdown “more likely than not.” And by failing to actually pass a bill to fund the government through September (step 1), Washington Democrats are the ones making their shutdown all the more likely.

STEP 3: Paint the spending cuts the American people want as “extreme.” Stanford economist John B. Taylor said the funding bill passed by the House has spending cuts that “will increase economic growth and employment,” and “encourage job-producing private sector investment.” But Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY) and Democrats have their marching orders: to label spending cuts needed to boost our

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
economy as “extreme.” “I always use the word extreme,” said Senator Schumer. No word on whether they think a spending-driven $14 trillion debt crisis is too “extreme.” And remember, since they still haven’t passed a long-term funding bill (step 1), it’s hard to know which spending cuts Democrats don’t think are “extreme.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

(More…)

http://www.speaker.gov/Blog/default.aspx?Page=4

canopfor on April 8, 2011 at 7:29 PM

canopfor on November 29, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Let us go over the cliff!

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:06 PM

Thinking about the choices that the signers of the Declaration of Independence made, it seems that those events must have been on a different planet and that those men were of a different species. We are so much smaller today. Let’s go over the cliff.

GaltBlvnAtty on November 29, 2012 at 8:06 PM

Leftists hate the middle class. Once you understand that all of their actions become obvious.

“The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.”
Vladimir Lenin

The last six years have made those millstones so big as to be unstoppable.

jukin3 on November 29, 2012 at 8:07 PM

I wanna see more people SCREAMING at those using EBT cards at fast food restaurants.

kurtzz3 on November 29, 2012 at 8:08 PM

Here’s a variation on it from Jim Geraghty

I saw this on Ace and I have to say, of all the LIB explanations, this one is the best. But once again, it’s going to require the GOP to be on a singular message that is shouted every time they are in front of a camera. When taxes go up on everyone, say:

“This, America, is how expensive your entitlement society is. This is how much it costs. This is why it’s bigger than the eat-the-rich crowd would have you believe. And this is how bad it’s going to continue to be for your children and grand children. This is why it’s about government spending and not revenue/taxes.”

something like that. Everyone needs to feel the pain of the costs of “entitlements”.

Weight of Glory on November 29, 2012 at 8:08 PM

As an aside, those of you who thought back in the day (early-to-mid last decade) that sunsetting the income tax code would force a better tax system are being proven wrong.

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 8:09 PM

milemarker2020 on November 29, 2012 at 8:03 PM

Also you need to have entitlement reform too. In the 1990s, you had higher tax rates, but you also had favorable tax treatment on investments, spending controls, and you had Welfare reform. The GOP at this point has to frame the issue in the public and the media because we are going over the cliff. The question now is what happens on the other side when the pressure is on to make a deal. They have to really talk about what it was in the 1990s that allowed the economy to grow and the budget to be balanced. It wasn’t tax increases on everything and out of control spending with no reforms. This is what Obama is offering. Where is the GOP spokesman out there who can articulate this? If they don’t speak up now, they will lose the House in 2014.

milemarker2020 on November 29, 2012 at 8:09 PM

I’m walking away January 1st, my spending is going to go down so fast it will set a land speed record. You would be amazed just how much fresh vittles I can get trading my skills for it, I have a fresh half-cow waiting for me to pick it up and all it cost was some plow and fence welding.

Bishop on November 29, 2012 at 8:10 PM

Burn down BIG BIRD (Federal Eagle)!

SMACKRUNNER on November 29, 2012 at 8:10 PM

Also you need to have entitlement reform too. In the 1990s, you had higher tax rates, but you also had favorable tax treatment on investments, spending controls, and you had Welfare reform. The GOP at this point has to frame the issue in the public and the media because we are going over the cliff. The question now is what happens on the other side when the pressure is on to make a deal. They have to really talk about what it was in the 1990s that allowed the economy to grow and the budget to be balanced. It wasn’t tax increases on everything and out of control spending with no reforms. This is what Obama is offering. Where is the GOP spokesman out there who can articulate this? If they don’t speak up now, they will lose the House in 2014.

milemarker2020 on November 29, 2012 at 8:09 PM

They got neutered by Romney.

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 PM

Spot on vordaj

cmsinaz on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 PM

Why do I feel like no matter how long we discuss this I’m still coming back to the realization that we are swimming upstream in white water rapids?

Zetterson on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 PM

OT but relevant.

I’m literally at the end of the Boomer generation. Born in November of 1964 when 12/31/64 closed off this demographic group.

I grew up in the Washington DC area in a politically aware family. My parents cancelled their WaPo subscription early on because of It’s political bias. They subscribe now because it is the only print option but dad reads the Washington Examiner on his I-Pad.

I’ve never been aware of an election outcome where the “losing side” is as angry as they are over this election. Am I wrong in my perceptions? And what does it portend for the future? An awful lot of fiscal conservatives were left unsatisfied with a second term by a rat-eared faithless socialist.

Happy Nomad on November 29, 2012 at 8:12 PM

Why do I feel like no matter how long we discuss this I’m still coming back to the realization that we are swimming upstream in white water rapids?

Zetterson on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 PM

That’s not water.

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 8:13 PM

Here’s a variation on it from Jim Geraghty

I saw this on Ace and I have to say, of all the LIB explanations, this one is the best. But once again, it’s going to require the GOP to be on a singular message that is shouted every time they are in front of a camera. When taxes go up on everyone, say:

“This, America, is how expensive your entitlement society is. This is how much it costs. This is why it’s bigger than the eat-the-rich crowd would have you believe. And this is how bad it’s going to continue to be for your children and grand children. This is why it’s about government spending and not revenue/taxes.”

something like that. Everyone needs to feel the pain of the costs of “entitlements”.

Weight of Glory on November 29, 2012 at 8:08 PM

Go ask a Leftist how long we could fund the government if we confiscated every last dollar from the Richest in the nation and we took everything from the richest corporations.

They live in a fantasy world were such an action could fund the government for years when in fact it would only do that for mere months – and eviscerate the economy in the process.

That is the kind of denial we are up against.

Chip on November 29, 2012 at 8:16 PM

Why do I feel like no matter how long we discuss this I’m still coming back to the realization that we are swimming upstream in white water rapids?
Zetterson on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 PM

That’s not water.
Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 8:13 PM

It just keeps getting worse

Zetterson on November 29, 2012 at 8:16 PM

I will take the medicine now. Thank you very much. Let everyone have skin in the game. We all know Obama wants this anyway but I don’t believe this is how he wanted it to come about. He wanted to incrementalize it a bit more and hide behind the basturd republicans. Get out of the room. Refuse to pass anything. Let the peasants start squealing about loss of income. In a sick way I am kind of looking forward to it.

1nolibgal on November 29, 2012 at 8:17 PM

yep. ate toasted cheese sandwiches last night. today scalloped potatoes and ham.

just a few bites is all i need. along with all the booze iv’e cut down on, now down about 8 pounds since november 6.

renalin on November 29, 2012 at 8:17 PM

Let it burn.

FerdtheMoonCat on November 29, 2012 at 8:18 PM

You Obama voting fools can get ready to pay more taxes and have less your pay and lose God knows what else before this is over. How do you like your messiah now. You put him back in office now live with him.

rplat on November 29, 2012 at 8:18 PM

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 PM

Well if the GOP capitulates on this as they did on TARP, then I think the Tea Party Movement of 2009, will pale comparison to what will come in 2013! If TARP was unbearable, this is liable to spark a serious uprising. I wouldn’t be so sure 2014 will go to the Dems, even with the media campaign against the GOP.

milemarker2020 on November 29, 2012 at 8:21 PM

Happy Nomad on November 29, 2012 at 8:12 PM

I’m one year older than you.

I’m furious, and never seen anything like this before either.

Midas on November 29, 2012 at 8:22 PM

Why do I feel like no matter how long we discuss this I’m still coming back to the realization that we are swimming upstream in white water rapids?
Zetterson on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 PM

That’s not water.
Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 8:13 PM

It’s a steady stream of Bull from the BSM – The Bull Stream Media.

Chip on November 29, 2012 at 8:25 PM

As an aside, those of you who thought back in the day (early-to-mid last decade) that sunsetting the income tax code would force a better tax system are being proven wrong.

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 8:09 PM

Indeed. There are so many lessons to be learned here.

Weight of Glory on November 29, 2012 at 8:25 PM

Democrats America will put off the reckoning on entitlements as long as they can, until a Grecian debacle finally forces their hand.

I wish you were wrong AP, but that’s the way this plays out.

The vast majority of America had no idea how to spell Islam before 9/11, the extant threat of muslim terrorism, previous muslim terrorist acts, public statements made by muslim leaders for decades preaching subjugation and extermination of infidels etc. etc.

It took two freaking passenger jets, two razed skyscapers, and 3000+ bodies for Joe Sixpack to think ‘Hey, maybe we have a problem on our hands here.’

It’s going to be the same with the Federal budget.

You can only print so much money and credit lines are cut when they are abused.

Chickens to home coming roost, to quote the poet and philosopher Jeremiah Wright.

CorporatePiggy on November 29, 2012 at 8:25 PM

Watch Live NOW!! Debating Indefinite Detention of AMERICAN CITIZENS!

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN2/

dom89031 on November 29, 2012 at 8:25 PM

The problem with letting it burn is that there will never come a point in time where the public perception is that we’re not the ones to blame for it.

Kataklysmic on November 29, 2012 at 8:26 PM

That is the kind of denial we are up against.

Chip on November 29, 2012 at 8:16 PM

The fog truly thick.

Weight of Glory on November 29, 2012 at 8:26 PM

Anyone who thinks the GOP has the guts to “let it burn” is a fool.The GOP is going to do what it does best-cave.They will compromise with Obama-getting very little in return, and then tell us all they had to do it to save the country from going over the fiscal cliff.The worst part of this is that so many stupid conservatives will believe them and continue to support the party that uses and abuses us repeatedly.The only thing we should let burn is the GOP! Time for conservatives to grow a pair and let the GOP die.

redware on November 29, 2012 at 8:27 PM

Happy Nomad on November 29, 2012 at 8:12 PM

The left was pretty angry after Gore lost in 2000, damn angry, but the anger was different and approached differently. The libs went nuts with their paper-mache heads, holding sit-ins, and generally making nuisances of themselves. But this anger is different, there’s an entire swatch of productive and economically active citizens who are preparing to pull out in one way or another.

The scary part is that after seeing the darkly comical deal that Bark just offered, I know now that things are going to get so much worse, and quickly at that.

Bishop on November 29, 2012 at 8:28 PM

The entire house of cards is going to collapse, and on some level people know that. Sales of canned goods (espeically freeze dried) are through the roof, sales of guns and munitions reach record peaks each year.

Gird your loins.

CorporatePiggy on November 29, 2012 at 8:28 PM

milemarker2020 on November 29, 2012 at 8:09 PM

To do that would mean accepting that there is a place for social spending: that everyone receiving assistance or other subsidies isn’t just some useless moocher. You can’t do that, and so you can’t assume the mantle of Clinton era reforms. You have to accept that those programs aren’t a socialist plot, but necessary parts of a modern society. You can’t. It’s all moochers, and how investors are the one essential cog in our economy.

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:28 PM

I am all for the let it burn option, but not one in which the GOP wil be blamed and the Dems will control the country for decades. Give the Dems what they want! No resistance, except for a warning. And then let Obama own it all.

Jack_Burton on November 29, 2012 at 8:28 PM

A) A double-dip recession driven by the sequester and the expiration of the Bush tax cuts, or

I’m not sure about this, the dependency. I might just be tripping at the insignificance of it as compared to say, economic collapse and a treasury printing new $100,000 bills.

This too:

Destroy the illusion among so many voters that they can get all the government they want without paying more in taxes.

They absolutely can, if “they” is the bottom of the pyramid.

Still, good direction, so let’s try it. This whole “explaning” thing was getting old anyway.

Axe on November 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM

Why Not? We’ll still vote for a Democrat or Republican either way. We will never learn.

dom89031 on November 29, 2012 at 7:48 PM

Speak for yourself.

Midas on November 29, 2012 at 8:30 PM

Zetterson on November 29, 2012 at 8:11 PM

That’s because we are. A caller on Rush today nailed it: There is no solution to this mess. We’re at a “gods of the copybook headings” moment. That’s why it feels like no matter tactic we take it’s not going to redound to our benefit. The same is true for the Democrats, it just doesn’t seem that way because they have an MSM that will cover for them. But that can only last so long once the real pain comes. Just prepare your family and community the best you can.

Weight of Glory on November 29, 2012 at 8:30 PM

America will put off the reckoning on entitlements as long as they can, until a Grecian debacle finally forces their hand.

Can a Grecian debacle befall our economy? Assuming the worst about our debt implies that there would be somewhere else for bond investors to turn. Every other major economy has a more robust welfare state, and similar if not higher levels of regulation. Investors fled Greece because they had somewhere else to go. Where will they go in our case? China? Communist China? Brazil? Germany? Canada? Japan? Australia? Every one of those countries have more redistributive economies than our own.

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:31 PM

Burn, baby, burn.

Hucklebuck on November 29, 2012 at 8:32 PM

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:31 PM

So we’ve established:
- You are not well traveled
- You have no understanding of Capital Markets.
- Are an accomplished race troll.

Any more tricks up your sleeve, trick?

CorporatePiggy on November 29, 2012 at 8:33 PM

…giving Obama whatever he wants so that he can’t blame Republicans for anything that happens later.

Obama will blame Republicans for anything that happens — whether the Repubs cave or not. And Obama will likely be successful in his blame game because the American people are innumerate and all your media are belong to Obama.

RightKlik on November 29, 2012 at 8:34 PM

Midas on November 29, 2012 at 8:30 PM

I was being sarcastic. I do not like R’s or D’s…I believe they are the same.

dom89031 on November 29, 2012 at 8:34 PM

I am all for the let it burn option, but not one in which the GOP wil be blamed and the Dems will control the country for decades. Give the Dems what they want! No resistance, except for a warning. And then let Obama own it all.

Jack_Burton on November 29, 2012 at 8:28 PM

I agree, I j ust don’t hold out any hope for any scenario in which the GOP will *not* be blamed; vote for it, vote against it, walk away, vote ‘present’, whatever.

When everything’s burning – and it is going to burn, pretty much no matter what we do at this point – who are the media going to blame? Themselves? The guy the helped elect? You don’t think Chris Matthews and the like will be out there spinning goodness-knows what kind of “its all the fault of the GOP because x y or z” story?

X – “The GOP was voted not to raise taxes, so the economy exploded…”
Y – “The GOP voted to raise taxes, so the economy exploded…”
Z – “The GOP did nothing – walked away, voted ‘present’ – goodness, can you imagine a more un-American thing to do in a time of crisis? – so the economy exploded – if only they had pitched in to help, Obama and the Dems could’ve gotten more done and averted this whole thing…”

At this point I don’t give a damn if they get blamed or not. I want the people responsible for putting these politicians into office to feel it in a very real, very painful, very “oh my stars, I brought this upon myself” way – and I want the politicians, their families, their pets, their houseplants, their friends, and anyone that ever smiled at them to feel it *worse*.

Said it in another thread; this will be over when the shooting stops. Just a question of when it starts at this point.

Midas on November 29, 2012 at 8:40 PM

To do that would mean accepting that there is a place for social spending: that everyone receiving assistance or other subsidies isn’t just some useless moocher. You can’t do that, and so you can’t assume the mantle of Clinton era reforms. You have to accept that those programs aren’t a socialist plot, but necessary parts of a modern society. You can’t. It’s all moochers, and how investors are the one essential cog in our economy.

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:28 PM

Summoning so many strawmen in a single post must be exhausting.

besser tot als rot on November 29, 2012 at 8:41 PM

I picked the wrong time to sell my moat company.

Bishop on November 29, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Obama will blame Republicans for anything that happens — whether the Repubs cave or not. And Obama will likely be successful in his blame game because the American people are innumerate and all your media are belong to Obama.

RightKlik on November 29, 2012 at 8:34 PM

That would be a difficult story to sell, even for a press as far in the tank as ours.

besser tot als rot on November 29, 2012 at 8:42 PM

CorporatePiggy on November 29, 2012 at 8:33 PM

So enlighten me. Outline a Greek scenario for the US. US debt to GDP hits 300%. What are the next steps?

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:43 PM

Republicans should make an adult offer. Raise taxes on the wealthy. But also make make major entitlement reform. And most importantly, cut discretionary spending immediately to 2008 levels.

There is no way the Dems will cut discretionary spending that much. So there would be no deal. And it would be hard to blame Republicans for there being no deal since they gave the dems the one thing they insisted on.

I prefer tax increases on the middle class and decreases in military spending to anything Boehner and McConnel will negotiate.

KMav on November 29, 2012 at 8:44 PM

The public’s belief in soaking the rich as a solution to core budgetary problems is one of the sturdiest in American political life

Yep, just look at Kalifornia.

GarandFan on November 29, 2012 at 8:44 PM

How about we give a million dollars to every adult citizen over the age of 18 who has been a citizen for at least 18 years and immediately end all government spending except military? Republicans could run on that, and win. I don’t think other countries would stop using the dollar. Americans would want to keep the value of the dollar high and embrace the politics that makes that happen. They wouldn’t want new citizens getting a million, but we’d want foreign workers here to serve us for low pay. We’d pretty much just import what we need and no one would have to work, except our servants.

The proposal might need a bit of tinkering. This is better than the future the Democrats got planned, and would be more popular with the voters.

Buddahpundit on November 29, 2012 at 8:45 PM

besser tot als rot on November 29, 2012 at 8:41 PM

Given the way conservatives refer to welfare here on this site, they aren’t straw men – it’s how many conservatives really feel.

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:45 PM

Can a Grecian debacle befall our economy? Assuming the worst about our debt implies that there would be somewhere else for bond investors to turn. Every other major economy has a more robust welfare state, and similar if not higher levels of regulation.

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:31 PM

And yet you and your leftist fellow nitwits whine incessantly about investors, rich people, businesses, etc… having money overseas, in offshore accounts, etc. Square that one for me, will ya? Why on earth would American investors, rich people, businesses, etc, continue to do business, make investments, hold money, open factories and more, anywhere but here, if what you say is correct?

Hey, we’re not ‘implying that there would be somewhere else to go’ – they’ve been going there already. They’re furiously busy doing it NOW, if you’re paying attention to the news regarding financial activity that’s underway NOW in anticipation of what’s coming in January.

Pay attention, idiot.

Midas on November 29, 2012 at 8:45 PM

Yes, everyone (except the people who don’t pay taxes now or never did) will be paying higher taxes in the very near future, but not for the reasons posted here on HotAir or anywhere else. There is a “must read’ article from POLITICO that will shed light on what is really taking place behind the scenes. I am not a fan of POLITICO by any means, but the article is revealing to say the least. Go to http://www.politico.com/story/2012/11/84364.html to read for yourself. The only conclusion to draw is the following: The circus we witnessed over the last several months, starting with the GOP candidate debates, proves that both political parties are in bed with each other and Washington always has and always will control the destiny of this country…it’s out of the hands of the people.

For starters, Eric Cantor and Joe Biden apparently share a very close friendship, even though Biden dissed Ryan bigtime in a very demeaning manner during the debate. Then, to make matters worse, there is actually a close relationship between Boehner and Obama. Towards the end of the article, it mentions how “Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, facing a reelection two years from now in conservative Kentucky, will defer to Boehner in brokering any compromise and might even break with his fellow GOP leader on a final vote.” And of course, Harry Reid will play hard-nosed to the very end, but “play loyal soldier” when the final vote comes down.

You see, it’s politics as usual from both parties to put on a “dog and pony show.” And here is the real scenario that will unfold in the coming year…The GOP will cave and agree to the higher taxes for the wealthy. That’s because Obama holds the cards and the taxes on the wealthy are going up either way. The GOP does not want to be responsible for letting all the Bush Tax cuts expire on the middle class, so they will cave for that reason. Later, after the dust has settled and negotiations begin on a budget and cutting the deficit, Obama will preside over a televised “fireside chat” and go for the kill. He will convince his supporters that taxes must be raised on everyone (except on the people who don’t pay taxes now or never did) in order to further his spending agenda (on the infrastruture, police and teacher hiring, etc.) He will point out that the high earners across the board, even Buffet and his Hollywood supporters stepped up to the plate to dig the country out of funk and into prosperity. And so, all workers earning above the povery level will see a tax increase. That is the scenario and you can take that to the bank.

metroryder on November 29, 2012 at 8:45 PM

I prefer tax increases on the middle class and decreases in military spending to anything Boehner and McConnel will negotiate.

KMav on November 29, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Plenty of liberals agree.

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:45 PM

Go ask a Leftist how long we could fund the government if we confiscated every last dollar from the Richest in the nation and we took everything from the richest corporations.

They live in a fantasy world were such an action could fund the government for years when in fact it would only do that for mere months – and eviscerate the economy in the process.

That is the kind of denial we are up against.

Chip on November 29, 2012 at 8:16 PM

This is what I am up against all the time with lefties…

I agree that the repubs should just vote ‘present’ and let this whole thing blow up in the dems faces!

I want the lefties to feel the pain!

I want them to know and realise that THEY caused this!

I want Obama to have all the damn taxes his little black heart desires…

I want them to know, “there is no free lunch”!

I so want them to feel every bit of O’care of Taxes of Debt of another Housing collapse of the Market crashing of Inflation going thru the roof…etc etc…

Oh yes, I WANT THEM TO FEEL EVERY SECOND OF IT!!

Scrumpy on November 29, 2012 at 8:48 PM

Can a Grecian debacle befall our economy? Assuming the worst about our debt implies that there would be somewhere else for bond investors to turn.
ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:31 PM

Bond holders are not an eternal investment class of people. They only exist because there is money to be made. Even if America remains the “prettiest” girl in the ugly girl competition, it doesn’t mean bond holders will still invest. The money they‘d use would find a better investment outside the sovereign debt game. The money employed by bond holders will simply be moved to other investment classes and forgo the purchasing of bonds all together. Our nation will no longer be able to fund our debt other than the FED printing and buying. It is a real possibility that bond holders could cease to exist. And after many creditors had to take massive haircuts on the Greek debt, many are rethinking the “soundness” of the sovereign debt investment. If similar scenarios play out in Italy and Spain, then you’ll accelerate the exit out of bonds. At that point it won’t matter if the BRICS are worse, wealth will leave nations and find better ground to sow.

Weight of Glory on November 29, 2012 at 8:50 PM

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:45 PM

i hope your not a latino. eres una desgracia para nuestra gente.

renalin on November 29, 2012 at 8:51 PM

… It’s all moochers, and how investors are the one essential cog in our economy.

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:28 PM

I would refer to you to Jacob Burckhardt’s seminal work The Civilization of the Renaissance in Italy. The “investor” is indeed the sine qua non in western society.

And you are a woefully ignorant blowhard … without which, we would all be better off.

M240H on November 29, 2012 at 8:53 PM

Let us go over the cliff!

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:06 PM

You first, head down…but get it out of yer azz first.

Schadenfreude on November 29, 2012 at 8:53 PM

Republicans need to understand that they’re going to be blamed for whatever happens either way. If Barry belches in public… it’s gonna be some Republican’s fault. These people despise us. They hate our guts. And NOTHING we do is ever going to be acceptable to them.

We need to just carry on, doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do. No American, no matter how filthy rich, should be asked to pay another thin dime in the current environment of irresponsible spending. My God! This administration can’t even be bothered to produce a budget, let alone cut anything from it.

Send it over the cliff. The GOP gets the blame any way you slice it anyway. Obama owns the media. Bottom line, if Republicans dance to Obama’s tune now, they’ll be his bitch for the next four years.

Bill Clinton was successful because he “triangulated”. Until Barack Obama gets off his high horse and decides to make an HONEST effort of it… they should tell him to pound sand. Geraghty is right. People are never going to understand that the house is on fire if they never smell smoke. We need to ALWAYS make taxes visible to the people paying them.

Murf76 on November 29, 2012 at 8:54 PM

That would be a difficult story to sell, even for a press as far in the tank as ours.

besser tot als rot on November 29, 2012 at 8:42 PM

If the media can sell a second Obama term they easily can sell more “Blame Bush and those GOP extremists” tripe. FDR prolonged the Great Depression by 7 years, yet he re-election over and over with the same strategy, and now it’s working brilliantly for Obama.

The GOP should do what’s good for the country and the people who put them in office.

They won’t though, because they want the revenue and they like big gov almost as much as Obama and the Dems.

RightKlik on November 29, 2012 at 8:55 PM

Let in burn. In three years the only question people will be asking will be “What middle class?” We all know Obama’s grand strategy is to make us all beggars ’cause beggars are easier to please.

dczombie on November 29, 2012 at 8:56 PM

So, here’s the thing — the tax rates on the lower 90% or so of tax filers don’t really affect the economy that much — and, in fact, increasing the taxes on the lowest earners can potentially increase their productivity (though, in our case, that would just be lowering how much we subsidize them). Only the top income marginal rate, capital gains rate, corporate profits rate, and dividends rate have a significant impact on the economy.
Raising the tax rate on the “rich” will only hurt those of us in the middle class, reducing our opportunities and security (probably beyond the effect of a similar tax increase on us directly). But all of that is secondary to how much government spending is crippling the economy.

Count to 10 on November 29, 2012 at 8:57 PM

Watch Republicans step on the Constitution just like Democrats:

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN2/

dom89031 on November 29, 2012 at 8:59 PM

dom89031 on November 29, 2012 at 8:59 PM

Do you plan on posting this on every single topic tonight, because it’s considered bad form.

Bishop on November 29, 2012 at 9:02 PM

Why would we vote present? Don’t do anything but vote nay if you disagree with the legislation put up for a vote. Enough squishes will vote to pass it and when the day of reconing comes, they can be voted out of office as well.

Gridlock is a beautiful thing and probably less damage to repair than letting it burn.

Vince on November 29, 2012 at 9:03 PM

Bishop on November 29, 2012 at 9:02 PM

I don’t care…not everybody is on every post. This is an important debate. They are debating if it’s okay to detain AMERICAN CIVILIANS indefinitely without due process.

dom89031 on November 29, 2012 at 9:05 PM

So enlighten me. Outline a Greek scenario for the US. US debt to GDP hits 300%. What are the next steps?

ernesto on November 29, 2012 at 8:43 PM

It won’t make it to 300%.

You assume that the US has unlimited credit, like most uneducated liberals. It does not – it simply has the largest credit limit in the world. But there is a limit and yes, even the Chinese will take a haircut on the several trillion dollars of debt they own if they think America has become one of those famous O-ships that go underwater.

The US owes more money than any country in the history of the planet and has no credible plan to pay it off. On the current course this only ends one way.

CorporatePiggy on November 29, 2012 at 9:05 PM

“AMERICAN CIVILIANS CITIZENS”

dom89031 on November 29, 2012 at 9:06 PM

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