Report: Obama’s “fiscal cliff” offer to Republicans calls for $1.6 trillion in new taxes and end of debt ceiling in exchange for … nothing, basically; Update: McConnell laughed out loud; Update: Walk away, says Krauthammer

posted at 6:02 pm on November 29, 2012 by Allahpundit

Even more unbelievable than the “offer” itself is the fact that the our hack media will go on painting Republicans as the unreasonable ideologues in this equation.

House Republicans said on Thursday that Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner presented the House speaker, John A. Boehner, a detailed proposal to avert the year-end fiscal crisis with $1.6 trillion in tax increases over 10 years, an immediate new round of stimulus spending, home mortgage refinancing and a permanent end to Congressional control over statutory borrowing limits.

The proposal, loaded with Democratic priorities and short on detailed spending cuts, was likely to meet strong Republican resistance. In exchange for locking in the $1.6 trillion in added revenues, President Obama embraced $400 billion in savings from Medicare and other entitlements, to be worked out next year, with no guarantees.

He did propose some upfront cuts in programs like farm price supports, but did not specify an amount or any details. And senior Republican aides familiar with the offer said those initial spending cuts might well be outnumbered by upfront spending increases, including at least $50 billion in infrastructure spending, mortgage relief, an extension of unemployment insurance and a deferral of automatic cuts to physician reimbursements under Medicare…

[T]he details show how far the president is ready to push House Republicans. The upfront tax increases in the proposal go beyond what Senate Democrats were able to pass earlier this year. Tax rates would go up for higher-income earners, as in the Senate bill, but Mr. Obama wants their dividends to be taxed as ordinary income, something the Senate did not approve. He also wants the estate tax to be levied at 45 percent on inheritances over $3.5 million, a step several Democratic senators balked at. The Senate bill made no changes to the estate tax, which currently taxes inheritances over $5 million at 35 percent.

Here’s Peter Suderman’s idea of a commensurate counter-offer:

Two possibilities. One: Obama reeeeally wants to avoid the cliff, so he’s engineering some political cover for the other side to compromise. Ante up with a ridiculous bid, then pretend to let Republicans “win” by letting them negotiate him down to, say, “only” a trillion in new revenues. In order to believe that, though, you have to believe that O fears the cliff. Why would he? Polls show that Republicans will take most of the blame, which means not only will Obama have more leverage after January 1 (see my earlier post about that) but he can then blame any economic sluggishness over the next year or two or four on the GOP too. That might be the difference between a Republican Senate versus a Democratic House in 2014. Which brings us to two: He’s either indifferent about going over the cliff or now actively wants it to happen, and since he knows he can count on the press to scapegoat Republicans when it does, he’s decided to shoot for the stars with his “offer” and see how desperate Boehner is. Is the GOP sufficiently nervous about being called enemies of the middle class if a deal isn’t reached that they’ll cave on tax hikes on the rich in exchange for some smaller bundle of concessions, with this insane package the only other alternative on the Democratic side? That’s what O wants to see.

Exit question: Let it burn?

Update: NRO’s Dan Foster asks a good question:

We’re supposed to be paying down the deficit here, not squeezing the rich to fund Obama’s next government expansion. How much of this mega-soak is designed to do the former rather than the latter?

Update: Laughable, literally:

Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republican leader, says he “burst into laughter” Thursday when Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner outlined the administration proposal for averting the fiscal cliff. He wasn’t trying to embarrass Geithner, McConnell says, only responding candidly to his one-sided plan, explicit on tax increases, vague on spending cuts…

Geithner suggested $1.6 trillion in tax increases, McConnell says, but showed “minimal or no interest” in spending cuts. When congressional leaders went to the White House three days after the election, Obama talked of possible curbs on the explosive growth of food stamps and Social Security disability payments. But since Geithner didn’t mention them, those reductions appear to be off the table now, McConnell says.

Update: Via NRO, hard to argue with this.


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Call the turds bluff, pass an acceptable version of Simpson-Bowles and let Obam squirm.

Tater Salad on November 29, 2012 at 11:45 PM

Let it burn. Hit the pedal to the metal and off the cliff we go!

oryguncon on November 30, 2012 at 12:09 AM

Uh-huh …

Gutless and pathetic.

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 12:13 AM

Let it burn, I’ve already pulled all my stocks out of the market. I’m ready for the crash.

tkyang99 on November 30, 2012 at 12:18 AM

Answer my question. What do you think I’m untruthful about?

hawkdriver on November 29, 2012 at 11:05 PM

I’ll answer you when you frame the question honestly. That is when you frame your question to accurately reflect my remarks I will answer you. Until then you know what you can do.

It didn’t take much. But I see that veneer cracking. You’re not as cool a cucumber as I thought.

You’re like a community organizer for ex-Republicans. What could be more petty and un-American than searching for ways to let it burn? You’re like OWS with less patchouli and body-odor.

Capitalist Hog on November 30, 2012 at 12:31 AM

Let it burn. Now! It is going to sooner or later. And Republicans: Don’t worry about blame; as long as there is no free press in this country, only a government (democrat) controlled propaganda apparatus, you’ll get the blame for all adverse events, no matter the actual cause. Only rebuilding from the ashes can be contemplated now.

tngmv on November 30, 2012 at 12:36 AM

Let it burn, I’ve already pulled all my stocks out of the market. I’m ready for the crash.

tkyang99 on November 30, 2012 at 12:18 AM

What’s more likely is that you needed to liquidate and used the election as a cover to save face. You could not be worth that much on paper if you’re comfortable making such a sweeping action with all of one type of asset.

You need professional financial-planning. Or you need to relax. You keep making rash decisions like that and you won’t make it until the Crashpocalypse .

Capitalist Hog on November 30, 2012 at 12:36 AM

I am with Charles K
WALK AWAY, REPUBLICANS, WALK AWAY!
Go over the cliff!
Do NOT go anywhere near this president and his democrat socialist views and programs.

Take the advice of Charles K and WALK AWAY!
Do it NOW!

Delsa on November 30, 2012 at 12:38 AM

Only rebuilding from the ashes can be contemplated now.

tngmv on November 30, 2012 at 12:36 AM

Hey Hawkdriver.

Is this the language you’re speaking? If so America will be better off when you hang up your flight suit.

Capitalist Hog on November 30, 2012 at 12:41 AM

Look at that, Hawky. You did it.

Awww. smiley face

Capitalist Hog on November 30, 2012 at 12:42 AM

I’ll answer you when you frame the question honestly. That is when you frame your question to accurately reflect my remarks I will answer you. Until then you know what you can do.

Translated. I’m a punk coward and I’m too gutless to answer a very straightforeward question.

It didn’t take much. But I see that veneer cracking. You’re not as cool a cucumber as I thought.

lol. Yep, I’m all falling a part here. I’ve never had to deal with a pressure cooker situation like exchanging with an adversary like you before.

You’re like a community organizer for ex-Republicans. What could be more petty and un-American than searching for ways to let it burn? You’re like OWS with less patchouli and body-odor.

Capitalist Hog on November 30, 2012 at 12:31 AM

Answer my question. If you really had a question, ask it. I’ll answer it without playing freaking childish games like you.

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 12:45 AM

The right question is Daniel Foster’s. How much does it close the deficit?

None.

In any negotiation, you must have the courage to walk away. Reagan did with Russia and won. Bush 41 compromised with the Democrats with no hard cuts and lost.

itsspideyman on November 30, 2012 at 12:45 AM

Meh. History Channel finds him every night–according to them.

predator on November 29, 2012 at 10:26 PM

Ugh. Don’t remind me.

Dunedainn on November 30, 2012 at 12:47 AM

Hey Hawkdriver.

Is this the language you’re speaking? If so America will be better off when you hang up your flight suit.

Capitalist Hog on November 30, 2012 at 12:41 AM

Dude. Is this what you do. You go off on fourty freaking tangents babbling so you don’t have to answer.

Look at that, Hawky. You did it.

Awww. smiley face

Capitalist Hog on November 30, 2012 at 12:42 AM

You’re not making sense.

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 12:48 AM

No deal on the fiscal mess until we get the truth on Benghazi.

Let the Dems raise everyone’s taxes.

And cut military spending.

They can own their bankrupt follies.

Along with the delusional 51% who voted for their profligate fantasies.

Let it go over the cliff.

Dems are the cause.

Let ‘em eat it.

profitsbeard on November 30, 2012 at 12:55 AM

You want accurate and proper answer or the crap Paul Ryan has been feeding us?

As is, that $500 Billion [fiscal] “cliff” is 25% better than what Ryan proposed ($400B). I’ll take it.

riddick on November 29, 2012 at 9:15 PM

I agree. If the GOP takes anything but the (bullshit, share the peeps) “cliff”, I am done with them.

I repeat: How many “cliffs” a year is necessary to balance the budget? Mathematically.

kunegetikos on November 30, 2012 at 12:55 AM

Who left the hog pen gate open?

SurferDoc on November 30, 2012 at 12:57 AM

1. Pass our own bill in the House…

yadadiyada,,,

It would be for MORE spending. All GOP plans are for more spending. They continue to attempt to con the people that they are for less spending. They are ALWAYS for MORE spending

kunegetikos on November 30, 2012 at 12:59 AM

The fiscal “cliff” is nothing. It would take several fiscal “cliffs” a year to make even a minor difference.

The fact that the GOP opposes the “”cliff”” proves that they are fake and disgusting

kunegetikos on November 30, 2012 at 1:01 AM

I am serious here. Does anyone else get what the troll Capitalist Hog is trying to say? Do his comments make sense to “anyone” else?

I’m supposed to hang up my flightsuit because … I have a Conservative mindset? (What does my particular politics have to do with me flying?)

It just rambling to me now.

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 1:08 AM

It just rambling to me now.

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 1:08 AM

Well there is one person who might be able to understand “Capitalist Hog’s” rantings and ramblings, or at least make left or right of them anyhow, but I seem to have misplaced the Mad Hatter’s phone number.

VorDaj on November 30, 2012 at 1:17 AM

“It’s” just …

Initially, he was pretty clear. He was defending the tax hikes the obamma administration wants to make. He sort of does that a lot. Complains we’re too Conservative and rails on folks who are pretty resolute in their Conservative convictions. If I were a Moby, that’s how I’d attack people here. Let’s see, he said something about better it happen now to the rich folks before it happens to us. (lol, then he called someone else a Moby) Then in his normal fashion he started in with the name calling to anyone who dared question his pathetically misguided liberal logic.

Then of course he was too stupid to understand an editted comment of mine and made a complete ass out of himself. He hasn’t been quite right since and I’m actually a little worried about him. He’s commenting like a deranged man. It must have been rather embarrassing for his comments to fall apart the way they did.

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 1:18 AM

VorDaj on November 30, 2012 at 1:17 AM

You picked up on the “crazy” too?

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 1:19 AM

I am serious here. Does anyone else get what the troll Capitalist Hog is trying to say? Do his comments make sense to “anyone” else?

I’m supposed to hang up my flightsuit because … I have a Conservative mindset? (What does my particular politics have to do with me flying?)

It just rambling to me now.

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 1:08 AM

You’re supposed to be ashamed of yourself for wishing the Dems to be embarrassed in a forced confrontation with the reality of their fiscal insanity.

It’s unAmerican to hope that spendthrift political weasels get a bitter taste of their septic approach to financial matters.

profitsbeard on November 30, 2012 at 1:20 AM

You picked up on the “crazy” too?

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 1:19 AM

In Capitalist Hog’s world, everything is nonsense. Nothing is what it is, because everything is what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what must be, can’t be and what can’t be, must be. You see?

Cheshire Cat on November 30, 2012 at 1:22 AM

It’s cute how the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail against the extremely MINOR budget cuts and calling it a “fiscal” “cliff.”

kunegetikos on November 30, 2012 at 1:22 AM

Must be the late shift clocking in?

SurferDoc on November 30, 2012 at 1:25 AM

Who left the hog pen gate open?

SurferDoc on November 30, 2012 at 12:57 AM

If Capitalist Hog had grown up, he would have made a dreadfully ugly child, but he makes a rather handsome pig, I think.

Cheshire Cat on November 30, 2012 at 1:27 AM

Exit question: Let it burn?

Let it burn.

DFCtomm on November 30, 2012 at 1:28 AM

profitsbeard on November 30, 2012 at 1:20 AM

Oh. So he takes the term, “Let it Burn”, literally. Like we want the country to burn and not just letting the Donks fulfill their desire to continue trashing the economy?

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 1:33 AM

Exit question: Let it burn?

Let it burn.

DFCtomm on November 30, 2012 at 1:28 AM

Let it burn the Dem pyromaniacs.

profitsbeard on November 30, 2012 at 1:34 AM

Let it burn.

DFCtomm on November 30, 2012 at 1:28 AM

Some like it hot and some sweat when the heat is on
Some feel the heat and decide that they can’t go on
Some like it hot, but you can’t tell how hot ’til you try
Some like it hot, so lets turn up the heat ’til we fry !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgYqIvnPvqQ

VorDaj on November 30, 2012 at 1:35 AM

Exit question is moot. Republicans will fold, with dreams of somehow turning it to their advantage in the midterms or even 2016. It’s simply in their nature. Charlie Brown and that football…

The Resolute Desk on November 30, 2012 at 1:36 AM

Let it burn the Dem pyromaniacs.

profitsbeard on November 30, 2012 at 1:34 AM

After drinking a potion of Saul Alinsky, Jeremiah Wright, Karl Marx, Bill Ayers, Benito Mussolini, King George III, King Louis XVI and his own creation, Barack Obama is transformed into the cruel, remorseless, pathological, narcissistic, misanthropic, pyromaniac (clinical reference note #1) Herr Hussein, representing the hidden side of Obama’s dual nature brought to the fore. As Barry he has many friends and, with great effort, is able to affect a pleasing personality, but as Herr Hussein he has become more and more fanatical, more and more dictatorial, more and more scape goating, makes ever longer enemies lists, encourages demonization and dehumanizing of political opponents and becomes ever more isolated and fascist like as time goes by as Herr Hussein grows in dominance. After taking this potion repetitively, he now no longer needs to rely upon it to unleash his worst inner fascist demons.

Clinical reference note #1: Such individuals who lack ulterior motive have traditionally been referred to in layman’s terms simply as a variation of a pyromaniac. Most such maniacs lack conscious motivation although they are fully aware of the acts they are failing to stop or they themselves are committing. Typically they will feel intense pleasure, gratification, or relief when causing destruction or when witnessing or participating in the aftermath. Motivation is also classified as pathological and non-pathological. Some research suggests that feeling such joy at horrific situation is pathological. Other research suggests that some motivation for this comes from rational thought. Taking joy in horrific situations for envisioned gains in political power and/or the concealment of the imposition of devious plans are examples of supposed rational decision making.

I must say in conclusion that history has repeatedly and harshly proven that elevating such a profoundly disturbed man to the highest office in any country is never a good idea. Unfortunately it is a lesson that must be learned first hand in every nation and some of those nations survive and some do not

Sigmund on November 30, 2012 at 1:41 AM

VorDaj on November 30, 2012 at 1:35 AM

Some like it hot.

profitsbeard on November 30, 2012 at 1:49 AM

It is sort of funny to listen to the Republicans talk about increasing spending next year and to try, at the same time, to tell their drones that they are “cutting” spending. Yeah, right…

kunegetikos on November 30, 2012 at 2:01 AM

Pubs should accept what ever will destroy the country the quickest. The sooner it is destroyed, the better. All Pubs. have ever done is to slow the destruction so that the idiots don’t think it is actually happening. The quicker it happens, the better.
they lie on November 29, 2012 at 6:11 PM

This is as true as it gets. We are where we are because the 47% feel no pain. Where are the soup lines? Where are the tent cities? Slumming it these days for the 47% is not being able to get the most expensive IPad or having to settle for a Kindle Fire HD. Not being able to get the entire package of movie channels on cable or having to settle for the 50″ plasma TV instead of the 60″ LED 3D TV.

What you have now are unmarried couples living in Section 8 housing in good neighborhoods, raising multiple children by different Daddies, sending them to good schools at taxpayers expense, getting free school supplies,clothing, collecting welfare, SSI,food stamps, Medicaid, getting free dental, free phones, going to multiple local food pantries, getting help paying their utilities, free furniture, and owning two cars while Mommy’s latest dude she is shacking up with works or makes money off illegal activities. They pay no taxes and somehow manage to get 4,000 dollar or more tax returns every year. All of which goes on vacations,buying more toys, gadgets and goodies.

Why would this 47% care about 10% unemployment taxes going up, inflation, jobs lost, the market crashing,small business and banks closing down or anything else like it happening? It will just mean more gubmint programs for them to game.

Let it all burn! We the makers can start from scratch and the freeloaders can get theirs from the limousine liberals, elitists Dems and their Holwywood Celebs who backed Barack O’Claus.

How

Rockshine on November 30, 2012 at 2:37 AM

Let it burn, I’ve already pulled all my stocks out of the market. I’m ready for the crash.

tkyang99 on November 30, 2012 at 12:18 AM

I hope you did not exchange it into soon worthless dollars or bonds but instead something that you need in the future.

Capital Gains tax will go up further so if you buy gold, be prepared to pay tax over the phantom gains because the dollar becomes worthless.

Is it my impression that ammo is the better stuff to buy ?

huntingmoose on November 30, 2012 at 2:45 AM

Honestly I have got to the point where if it burns down, I would consider it a good thing. As a conservative I will fight for something that I think is significant. I will blame every single Democrat for the higher taxes, higher unemployment, layoffs etcc. So that is the fight to be involved in, Pinning the blame on the Democrats, Just keep repeating the mantra Dems have 2/3 of the legislative branch and they are in control. Keep repeating that until they get tired of hearing it. then repeat it some more. As for all the rest Let it Burn

stormridercx4 on November 30, 2012 at 3:05 AM

OK, you lost me right there. A Mossberg needing a backup?
 
riddick on November 29, 2012 at 10:49 PM

 
Ha. You have a point. And, FWIW, it never did.
 
Seriously, though, the salty air would always make the one I used feel so different by the end of the hunting day that I started taking two and keeping one protected in a sleeve until/if it was needed.

rogerb on November 30, 2012 at 3:33 AM

Krauthammer said that Obama won by 3%…well, it was not even that much.

One problem I have with CK here…I do not think Republicans should take this deal as it is…but I also do not think that Obama cares if there is a recession. He does not care if unemployment goes up..he got through his first term without blame and he thinks he can do it again.

I honestly do not know what the answer is at this point, but I have a feeling my taxes are going up in a few weeks, assuming I don’t lose my job.

Terrye on November 30, 2012 at 6:50 AM

Rush is right on this one.

Obama doesn’t care about recession or negative economic consequences, not the way we do or understand them.

He’s in for another term. He didn’t care about anything the first four years when he had to get through another election. Why would he even worry about the pretense now?

Let it burn.

catmman on November 30, 2012 at 7:08 AM

I know how you feel, Terrye, but the crash is inevitable. While I, for one, don’t want to see it happen I’m willing to kick back and let it all come down. Implosion of a once-great republic is about the only way people other than us will see just what liberalism brings.

It’s easy to be liberal while there’s still abundance in the grocery stores, reality TV, and other people’s money to spend. But when it all implodes and those goodies are gone, things go the way John Lennon once said: “Life is what happens while you’re making other plans.”

Obamacare, for example, is the first time even liberals will have to pay out of pocket like the rest of us. They poo-pooed our warnings about why it’s a bad idea. So, they’ll be feeling the pain, too. For the first time! Even if they can’t afford it, they either pay for what they don’t want or get taxed for going without–they have no options in between.

I don’t have to worry about my medical care. With thanks to you fellow Americans, I am medically covered for life because of my former military stint. Thank you fellow taxpayers, so very much!

Screw the libs. I hope they get everything they want. If their plans work, great! But they won’t, so it’s quite feasible that liberalism will croak off long before our United States.

Well, at least that’s what I hope…

Liam on November 30, 2012 at 7:10 AM

Enough. Let the damn thing go over the “cliff” and crumble, then steel yourself for the suffering that will ensue. There comes a time when you must stand your ground and sacrifice for the greater good. This poor sick Republic is on its last legs and only courageous action and personal sacrifice can save it. The House should not yield to that joke of a proposal submitted by the administrative branch.

rplat on November 30, 2012 at 7:27 AM

This is what Jay Carney called Obama’s “fun” proposal.

For even more “fun” they are calling it Obama’s “Enabling Act”.

Dear Leader wants to go over the cliff. Comrade Chairman Obama wants to create another financial crisis he plans to blame on Republicans. He will then demand what are essentially dictatorial powers to “fix” it. This is a completely undemocratic dictatorial power grab… “Give me the power I desire or I will blame the consequent disaster on you and grab that power anyway.”

Only if we give Der Fuhrer Obama dictatorial powers can we avoid the coming disaster which well be caused by the Jews Republicans and their wealthy patrons.

farsighted on November 30, 2012 at 7:57 AM

For anyone interested in how a trip over the “cliff” will affect their personal taxes the following URL provides a good estimate.

http://calculator.taxpolicycenter.org

rplat on November 30, 2012 at 7:57 AM

The agreement: a one time extension for the tax cuts for a one time debt ceiling raise.

A deal is a deal.

The R’s agree to fall on their swords on taxes so the D’s can get their lovely Clinton-era rates.

The D’s by ‘winning’ the White House now get to put a balanced budget together that does not spend past the debt ceiling, and, thusly, cut the size of government and its spending both at the same time.

A deal is a deal.

Advice to the R’s: do NOTHING and point out that all of the Constitutional duties can still be done and leave $1.44 trillion to be spent on the other stuff. D’s have to figure out if they want to be the ‘good guys’ and fund SSA and block grant out medical funding to the States as the M&M’s and Obamacare are bank-busters… and do away with vast swaths of the federal government not covered by the Constitution……… or…. defend having to have a DoJ by cutting into those block grants and be the ‘meanies’ for prioritizing DoJ or HHS or EPA over spending on the poor, seniors, etc. by giving money to the States to help out those self-same groups.

Really, if the D’s love Big Government they can decide if they love that more than their past support for SSA, the M&Ms and all the ‘entitlements’. Because a debt limit cap means a return to Clinton era spending and to get there things must be cut. Now if they propose that $1+ trillion in over-promises will be cut ‘across the board’, well, all you retirees can look forward to payments about half their current size. Ditto the M&Ms. And all those non-required parts of the government get cut in half, too. Even some of the required stuff will take a bit of hit, but they already got hit with sequestration, so that won’t be much.

Ahhhh…I’m sure that the smartest kids in the room, the most able leaders in the Democratic Party can figure this one out! They WANTED THE DAMN DEAL SO KEEP IT. Give it to them.

Play pinochle in the well of the House.

Disconnect the phones.

Let the House and Senate staff go away in the budgets when the government they help Congress oversee goes away or cut their pay in half, along with that of the Judiciary. Everyone takes a haircut OR you fulfill ‘the social contract’ the D’s talk about so lovingly and constantly, but most of the bureaucracy and agencies of the federal government go away to do that ‘social contract’.

Reject all non-balanced budgets: anything with deficit spending gets sent back with a note ‘try harder’.

That is what Barry & Co. wanted and never, ever, believed they would ever have to deliver on it and they would STILL get their beloved tax hikes. Sorry, a deal is a deal. You get your tax hikes, Democrats Upon the Hill, now you get the hard part of committing seppuku yourself on spending cuts. Your bane is a balanced budget just as the Republican bane is tax hikes. They agree to let the cuts expire, so you can do your part. Pick up Seppuku for Dummies: The DIY Kit.

Let it Burn.

Just as the lovely leadership agreed to last year.

And you have to do NOTHING to keep the deal, just let the caps stay, let the taxes increase and the Democrats can now decide on how to slim down government. And if they really mean their ‘social contract’ blather or if they prefer bureaucracy to it. And that answer will get driven home to all seniors and retirees in just a few weeks… elections have consequences! Obama Won! Whooppppeeeee! He wanted that screwed up deal, now he has been re-elected to LIVE WITH IT.

Suckers one and all Upon the Hill.

So much back-stabbing that they now realize they are having to stab backs by going through their own abdomens.

Geniuses one and all for that!

ajacksonian on November 30, 2012 at 8:01 AM

Patty Murray and BO are like Thelma and Louise with children in the backseat. Not coolio, not heroes, just depraved, reckless indifference to the welfare of the American people.

Buy Danish on November 30, 2012 at 8:03 AM

I believe the theme here is that Mr. Obama is not seriously concerned about our countries fiscal situation.

For over three year now the President has not passed a budget. The last proposal he actually did bother to formulate was rejected unanimously by both parties.

Yet, we sit with bated breath waiting for his…proposal?

Mr. Obama is obviously perfectly comfortable with the results of sequestration. Make him own it.

We have a spending problem, nit a tax problem. It’s really not a hard argument to make folks.

Marcus Traianus on November 30, 2012 at 8:29 AM

Rush is right on this one.

Obama doesn’t care about recession or negative economic consequences, not the way we do or understand them.

He’s in for another term. He didn’t care about anything the first four years when he had to get through another election. Why would he even worry about the pretense now?

Let it burn.

catmman on November 30, 2012 at 7:08 AM

This is true. Obama doesn’t care but at some point, some democrats are going to care. When Obama’s approval rating starts dropping, if the pressure on Benghazi debacle continues, there will be some democrats who start to jump ship. Today, Harold Ford Jr. on Morning Joe was making some of these points. It’s going to have to come from sane democrats, if there are any left.

monalisa on November 30, 2012 at 8:31 AM

America now has the ESAU voting bloc in charge!

They would gladly trade their birthright of liberty for a bowl of soup (benefits).

PappyD61 on November 30, 2012 at 8:43 AM

This is what they are doing.
This is what they always do.
Stop falling for it.

http://changingminds.org/techniques/general/sequential/ditf.htm

Mimzey on November 30, 2012 at 9:03 AM

Who are we kidding? The GOP isn’t about to “let it burn.”

They absolutely should, but the GOP has proven time and time again that they’re gutless weasels, scared to death the MSM might say something mean about them and the American public might believe it.

I have seriously just about had it with this Party. If they do what I know they’re going to do, we should all go Whig. Or Libertarian.

Here’s my exit question: if we can’t count on the GOP at crunch time, what the hell good are they at all?

DRayRaven on November 30, 2012 at 9:10 AM

Even more unbelievable than the “offer” itself is the fact that the our hack media will go on painting Republicans as the unreasonable ideologues in this equation.

That’s all this is about.

Akzed on November 30, 2012 at 9:13 AM

Here’s my exit question: if we can’t count on the GOP at crunch time, what the hell good are they at all?

DRayRaven on November 30, 2012 at 9:10 AM

I’ve been asking that for years.

gryphon202 on November 30, 2012 at 9:14 AM

Estate tax should be ZERO!
Feds are the bully.
Government greed.
I predict the reps will cave.

racquetballer on November 30, 2012 at 9:36 AM

I asked this question before, but got no answer.

If the GOP passes legislation that would fix everything that does not compromise with the Democrats and then just allows the country to go over the fiscal cliff, what do you think the likelihood of it working would be?

20% tax cuts across the board w/closing of loopholes and capping deductions to make it revenue neutral at the top, scaling back regulations, repealing Obamacare and saving the Defense Department etc. The Romney/Ryan plan in effect.

The Media would murder us, but it would save the economy and the country if enacted. Are we just assuming now that President Obama is a completely heartless bastard who would allow the country to go back into another recession just to blame it on Republicans? (I don’t know, honestly. He’s either a giant heartless bastard or an incompetent zealot in my estimation.)

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 9:41 AM

I saw Sen. Mark R. Warner (D-Va) on CNN (I think) the other night.
Warner said that the President hopes to get $1.0 trillion in “savings” from the income and capital gains taxes on the rich.
Warner went on to say that he thought they needed $1.8 trillion in “savings.”

Let’s get real here. When you’re running $1.0 to $1.4 trillion deficits, even adjusting for hopeful growth, they need at least $8.0 trillion in “savings.” This “fiscal cliff” really only generates about $4 trillion in “savings,” so I say “over the cliff.” They don’t have a down payment on a down payment.

These guys remind me of that old stereotypical joke about who the first owners of Cadillac-s are, until the car is repossessed.

And President Obama did sign the legislation that put the “fiscal cliff” in our path to the future. Hey, what could be so bad for Democrats than going back to the tax levels of Bill Clinton ? And those cuts .. yeah, a great way to transfer blame for the $700 billion in “promised savings” in the ACA that Democrats passed to the Republicans who will actually make good on $400 billion in “actual savings.”

J_Crater on November 30, 2012 at 9:43 AM

Republicans should tell Obama “see ya” until you have something substantial to put on the table and it better be REALLY, REALLY good if you expect a debt ceiling increase.

I am strongly against a debt ceiling increase whatsoever. It has to stop now.

michaelthomas on November 30, 2012 at 9:47 AM

If Scooter wants to raise taxes on the American people, let him. Call his bluff. LIB.

kingsjester on November 30, 2012 at 9:54 AM

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 9:41 AM

I agree with your main point, which is that Repubs should just stick to their values and let the chips fall. Placading to “Independents” doesn’t work and hasn’t worked.

But – do you even know what a “loophole” is?

Secondly, the GOP is not in a position to pass any legislation because they only control the House. But I agree, they should try to pass legislation so that when inevitable collapse happens, the GOP has a record of having tried to do something that was sensible.

Third, taking a hard stance will not make the GOP any worse off with the media. It can get any worse. Have you been paying attention?

Fourth, Obama is a devout socialist. Is that not obvious to you by now? Just as you can’t negotiate with terrorists, you can’t negotiate with a socialist.

michaelthomas on November 30, 2012 at 9:59 AM

This is all a set up. Bernanke knows our chances of escaping another recession (or being able to continue fooling the public we ever escaped the last one) are fading fast.

So the dems throw out this crap, knowing the republicans will catch the blame for the next recession no matter what they do.

And after all, the Senate is up for grabs come 2014.

WryTrvllr on November 30, 2012 at 10:01 AM

It’s not really a given that the Republican Party will be blamed for going over the fiscal cliff, as long as they fight back and do their utmost to publicize which side is refusing to compromise.

RebeccaH on November 30, 2012 at 10:18 AM

I dont get how Republicans have lost the tax debate against the party that does nothing but increase taxes.

How did fair share become the rich pay everything and the moochers sit there and simply demand more. Honestly. If the 47% want more crap, heres a novel idea – either get a job, or if they already have a job, start paying for some of that crap.

And if Obama insists on simply hosing the rich, Republicans should just walk away, make tases go up on everyone, and then force Obama to compromise.

There will be a backlash gainst Republicans. But then again, the people that will be angry already voted for Obama twice, and they deserve everything that they will get over the next 4 years.

milcus on November 30, 2012 at 10:21 AM

lol. Yep, I’m all falling a part here. I’ve never had to deal with a pressure cooker situation like exchanging with an adversary like you before.

bwahahahahaah

Okay, I laughed. You rock, Hawk. :)

Bob's Kid on November 30, 2012 at 10:26 AM

I figure this will get it’s own take down post/thread –

Complaints Aside, Most Face Lower Tax Burden Than in 1980

verbaluce on November 30, 2012 at 10:37 AM

Fourth, Obama is a devout socialist. Is that not obvious to you by now? Just as you can’t negotiate with terrorists, you can’t negotiate with a socialist.

michaelthomas on November 30, 2012 at 9:59 AM

Besides that, Obama doesn’t negotiate. He dictates.

He has never negotiated anything substantial in his life. Even if he wanted to try to negotiate — he doesn’t — he wouldn’t know how.

farsighted on November 30, 2012 at 10:40 AM

I agree with your main point, which is that Repubs should just stick to their values and let the chips fall. Placading to “Independents” doesn’t work and hasn’t worked.

But – do you even know what a “loophole” is?

Secondly, the GOP is not in a position to pass any legislation because they only control the House. But I agree, they should try to pass legislation so that when inevitable collapse happens, the GOP has a record of having tried to do something that was sensible.

Third, taking a hard stance will not make the GOP any worse off with the media. It can get any worse. Have you been paying attention?

Fourth, Obama is a devout socialist. Is that not obvious to you by now? Just as you can’t negotiate with terrorists, you can’t negotiate with a socialist.

michaelthomas on November 30, 2012 at 9:59 AM

I’m not really trying to make any points, more figuring out the state of things. That said. A loophole is when you take a bit of line and manipulate it so that it forms an eye. Duh.

As for your fourth point: Being ignorant on the economy (fond of socialism) doesn’t necessarily make you a heartless bastard, it just makes you ignorant. I talk to a lot of liberals and socialists, they might not be soulless politicians, but most of their faults lie within a general misunderstanding of the world and basic economic principles.

Not that there aren’t reasons to question President Obama’s basic human decency, what with the Libya debacle and cover-up, however it’s hard for me to understand someone with ill-intent. I can’t empathize with someone who wants to destroy the economy on purpose. It’s alien to me.

Reading the Gulag Archipelago is equally hard because I can’t come to terms with people willingly committing such evil acts in the name of a illogical socio-economic system.

So I’m very hesitant to say that President Obama’s reasoning here is based on malice rather than on a fundamental misunderstanding of reality.

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 11:18 AM

Since every spending bill has to originate in the House, can someone explain to me why Republicans need to make any deal with Democrats in order to cut spending?

cajunpatriot on November 30, 2012 at 11:25 AM

This is all just whistling Dixie.

“…personal transfers now eat up all Federal tax revenues: $2.4 trillion in, $2.4 trillion mailed out.”

Akzed on November 30, 2012 at 11:36 AM

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 11:18 AM

I was just giving you my response in a lively way – not trying to deface you.

What I should have clarified is that Obama is both a socialist and heartless.

I guess your loophole explanation is a joke referencing fishing line? And so you really were trying to form an argument using the term “loophole”, not knowing what you were exactly referring to?

michaelthomas on November 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM

Could actual Republican Obstructionism prevent a recession?

If the governors refuse to implement the President’s Health Care program, exert state rights to oppose regulatory over-reach while the House passes Romney/Ryan budgets continuously and conservative citizens take a lesson from the left in the media blitz…could we fix the economy regardless of any political damage we incur?

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 11:44 AM

Since every spending bill has to originate in the House, can someone explain to me why Republicans need to make any deal with Democrats in order to cut spending?

cajunpatriot on November 30, 2012 at 11:25 AM

The bill has to start in the House, but it would get vetoed by the WH if it goes through. The WH can’t get anything going until the House brings up a bill and approves it. It would be a waste of time if Zero had the dems bring a bill up only to get voted down, and it would also waste time if the reps brought a bill up only to not make it through the Senate.

Durka-Durka on November 30, 2012 at 11:45 AM

Even more unbelievable than the “offer” itself is the fact that the our hack media will go on painting Republicans as the unreasonable ideologues in this equation.

That’s all this is about.

Akzed on November 30, 2012 at 9:13 AM

But, whatever you do, don’t even think of voting third party.

Durka-Durka on November 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM

Since every spending bill has to originate in the House, can someone explain to me why Republicans need to make any deal with Democrats in order to cut spending?

cajunpatriot on November 30, 2012 at 11:25 AM

Good question. I’ve been wondering about this myself.

I believe the executive branch is permitted to use tax revenue and to borrow up to the debt limit to pay the federal government’s existing bills and other financial obligations. These spending obligations are also tied to and limited by the last budget passed. That’s why the Dem Senate does not want to pass a new budget and Dear Leader wants the debt limit restraint on the executive branch removed. The executive branch and the Senate half of the legislative branch are colluding to go around and bypass the House branch of the legislative branch.

Any new spending the federal government is not already by law obligated to spend must be authorized in a bill that originates in the House.

And there is a lot of gray area between these two end points.

I think this is how it works, basically, but I’m not yet certain.

Maybe Ed or Allah could put together a post exploring this and explaining it better.

farsighted on November 30, 2012 at 11:49 AM

The bill has to start in the House, but it would get vetoed by the WH if it goes through. The WH can’t get anything going until the House brings up a bill and approves it. It would be a waste of time if Zero had the dems bring a bill up only to get voted down, and it would also waste time if the reps brought a bill up only to not make it through the Senate.

Durka-Durka on November 30, 2012 at 11:45 AM

That is my understanding as well, but doesn’t that mean that the Federal Government can’t spend anything until the House approves it and then can’t we conclude that the House can cut anything out of Federal spending that it desires by just omitting it from spending legislation?

cajunpatriot on November 30, 2012 at 11:52 AM

I was just giving you my response in a lively way – not trying to deface you.

What I should have clarified is that Obama is both a socialist and heartless.

I guess your loophole explanation is a joke referencing fishing line? And so you really were trying to form an argument using the term “loophole”, not knowing what you were exactly referring to?

michaelthomas on November 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM

I’m a sailor, actually.

I used the term “loophole” because that is how we should present it when discussing the tax plan that Romney and Ryan engineered. Obviously the loophole refers to deductions and (I think subsidies as well) rather than to “illegal trickery”.

If my understanding is off, I blame the US Department of Education.

I still think that the number one priority for the Republican party and conservatives in general should be reaching out into “enemy territory” and educating and debating the ignorant policies. For me the problem with the election was that not enough people understood that they weren’t actually voting for their own self-interests and that the promises of the Democrats could never be kept. If more people understand that balancing our economic policies between ideas that don’t work and ideas that do isn’t a recipe for success we could win some elections in 2014 and 2016.

Maybe, I’m wrong for thinking it all comes down to ignorance.

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 11:53 AM

Even more unbelievable than the “offer” itself is the fact that the our hack media will go on painting Republicans as the unreasonable ideologues in this equation.

That’s all this is about.

Akzed on November 30, 2012 at 9:13 AM

But, whatever you do, don’t even think of voting third party.

Durka-Durka on November 30, 2012 at 11:46 AM

???

What are you saying, that the media will properly represent and report on a third-place party more conservative than the GOP?

My gosh.

Akzed on November 30, 2012 at 11:55 AM

What are you saying, that the media will properly represent and report on a third-place party more conservative than the GOP?

My gosh.

Akzed on November 30, 2012 at 11:55 AM

Unless it can hurt the Dems or the GOP in some way the MSM will simply ignore a third party.

When it can hurt the Dems it will be demonized and marginalized. When it can hurt the GOP without hurting the Dems it will be praised. Otherwise it will be ignored.

farsighted on November 30, 2012 at 12:01 PM

Maybe, I’m wrong for thinking it all comes down to ignorance.

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 11:53 AM

Nope, I try to frame things as simply as possible and the best explanation for the election result is “stupid”, which is a cousin of ignorance – a largely stupid electorate, plain and simple.

michaelthomas on November 30, 2012 at 12:02 PM

Let it burn. Hit the pedal to the metal and off the cliff we go!

oryguncon on November 30, 2012 at 12:09 AM

That’s been my attitude since the election. The only way America comes back now is from the ashes, most of the country have bought into the liberal vision, there is no turning back anytime soon.

neuquenguy on November 30, 2012 at 12:04 PM

After reading the Ted Cruz article I think I’m coming back around. Maybe the house and the GOP members of the senate should play the blocking game. Block everything that doesn’t lean toward economic growth and reduced spending with everything they have. Make them argue their case.

DO NOT RAISE THE DEBT LIMIT!!!!!

DanMan on November 30, 2012 at 12:07 PM

If Scooter wants to raise taxes on the American people, let him. Call his bluff. LIB.

kingsjester on November 30, 2012 at 9:54 AM

I agree…

Vote “present”…and walk away…he own’s it all…

PatriotRider on November 30, 2012 at 12:11 PM

Obama will go back to his threats back in July/August 2011 to withhold SS without a debt increase. That’s going to look awesome as he comes off a month long $4 million vacation. The fastest way to chaos is to cut the borrowing they have planned as part of the deal they want.

Harry Reid has successfully avoided debating a budget for going on 4 years. Don’t debate a debt increase and make him deal with it. They will prett quickly have to show their hand on budgetting one way or another.

Liberals need to learn the lesson of running out of other peoples money.

DanMan on November 30, 2012 at 12:17 PM

You picked up on the “crazy” too?

hawkdriver on November 30, 2012 at 1:19 AM

In Capitalist Hog’s world, everything is nonsense. Nothing is what it is, because everything is what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what must be, can’t be and what can’t be, must be. You see?

Cheshire Cat on November 30, 2012 at 1:22 AM

Are you channeling Shakespeare there :) …if you are, great job!!

jimver on November 30, 2012 at 12:22 PM

DO NOT RAISE THE DEBT LIMIT!!!!!

DanMan on November 30, 2012 at 12:07 PM

I absolutely agree. Every Repub that votes to raise the debt limit, I will despise as much as any liberal.

michaelthomas on November 30, 2012 at 12:25 PM

The GOP should just walk away from the negotiations. Obama is a fraud. Let him absorb the blame for the mess he made.

TruthBeTold on November 30, 2012 at 12:29 PM

I still think that the number one priority for the Republican party and conservatives in general should be reaching out into “enemy territory” and educating and debating the ignorant policies. For me the problem with the election was that not enough people understood that they weren’t actually voting for their own self-interests and that the promises of the Democrats could never be kept. If more people understand that balancing our economic policies between ideas that don’t work and ideas that do isn’t a recipe for success we could win some elections in 2014 and 2016.

Maybe, I’m wrong for thinking it all comes down to ignorance.

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 11:53 AM

Completely agree with you on this point that you are making, and true, it all comes down to ignorance in this country. Poblem with ignorance is tht people refuse systematically to acknowledge it and educate themselves on issues, and I really don’t know what it takes to actually make them ‘see’. The fact that we have this disgusting, leftist, politicized media doesn’ help either. Looks like ignorance will reign supreme in this land for a long time to come and there’s not much that we could do aout it (thinkg idiocracy, and don’t think ‘fiction’, cuz it’s not, it’s real).

jimver on November 30, 2012 at 12:32 PM

all spending starts in the house and this is what the whole argument is about, do not negotiate with yourselves GOP, stand down and let events play out until they show their hand

It is 300 million against 536. Get everybody good and mad and lets rumble.

DanMan on November 30, 2012 at 12:34 PM

I think that if we survive 2-4 years of Liberal “economics” it might serve as a neat lesson for a whole new generation of American voters. That said, we can’t be lazy…we have to be proactive.

Now, that doesn’t mean having arguments with your family, but that does mean engaging ex-Occupiers and youths, getting involved in your community and being a good salesman for your ideology. We all have to become great debaters and convince people that Republicans aren’t the sexist, racist monsters that they’re portrayed as.

I’m not even a Republican, I’m a Libertarian leaning “Independent” and I am constantly appalled by the slander and libel coming from the left on an hourly (minutely?) basis.

Andrew Breitbart was right, we have to get involved in every facet of American life from pop-culture to NPR to state government if we’re going to infiltrate the Misinformation that is constantly being fed to the public. We need a Libertarian version of Fox News, and four-five more Wall Street Journals, we need to find talented young artists and pull them out of the echo-chambers where they’re indoctrinated so successfully.

We need a version of this website for everything from Capitalism and Limited Government to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (and NO, Conservapedia doesn’t count). So many politicians and conservatives at the grass-roots level have given issues like the Iraq war to the liberals without much of a fight at all. We can’t allow any liberal myth go unchecked whether it be online or in a classroom and yet we do…

Okay, ranted a little more than I thought I was going to.

DeathtotheSwiss on November 30, 2012 at 12:55 PM

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